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Vedic Origins of the Europeans: the Children of Danu (Questions)
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by coolnight: [QB] ''You say there is nothing culturally to connect them to Europeans but that is not true. Read the below article.'' when I said that I was talking about what I said earlier ''My point was simply that although yes ideas, culture, customs beliefs etc... can be transferred from one group to another without the two group intermixing. There is still a limit to the degree of influence one group can impart on another without any inter mixing. I used india as an example to show that the degree of european influence there is in india to the point where there political elite has a full european (Sonia Ghandi) is indicative of a stronger closer relationship where some intermixing between the two must have occurred. '' My point was Kalash are an example of people where even if european cultral transference has occurred genetic transference of european genes in to there gene pool has not. Therefore even if kalash share/show similarity to some aspects of european culture or a cultural connection could be made with europeans any such influence must have been limited because there is no evidence they have mixed with europeans even in present times. I stated in my previous comment ''europeans are not know to settle in there area or marry them''. Genes/Blood bind you to the race your genes/blood belong to forever. You can't wash your genes away. You can not wash away a genetic bond. You are bound to it forever.If there was a genetic connection/bond between the people of this region and europeans it no doubt would have manifested in some way today by the presence of europeans in there region even in small numbers but it does not. ''You also say they don't look European or have no European looking physical traits but I disagree.'' I know what Kalash and what europeans look like. You have linked me a bunch of pictures of the kalash but gave no explanation on what phenotypic traits of there's makes you believe them to look the same/similar to europeans. I can easily tell the difference between the two. The kalash do not look european to me. They are clearly distinct from them (vice versa). You may not be able to see that distinction but just because you or someone else can not tell the difference between two things that in itself does not mean no difference exists or that someone else may not be able to perceive that difference. An important point you have to remember is you can not get an accurate picture of an individual/group's appearance on the basis of images/photo's because there are certain phenotypic traits such as real life skin/hair texture that images/photo's can not capture. Lighting/camera flash dilutes the skin colour and the skin texture. The most accurate way to judge two/different groups is to see them side by side, face to face in real life. I did state''aside from light phenotypes'' but it is on the basis of light phenotypes that a lot of people associate them with europeans and not on there more important phenotypic traits such as nasal features, face shapes etc.... Where are all the european mixes (those with significant european admixture) all around the world (hispanics, latonis, anglo indians, black n white mullatos etc.......) with light hair, skin and eye colour like the kalash? From the european-non european mixes I have see most do not tend to display light phenotypes in all three degrees (hair, skin, eyes). Most europeans too do not have blonde hair whereas kalash display a relative high percentage of blonde hair relative to the numbers that make up there group. The reality is Kalash look very different from europeans in many aspects of there phenotypes. I gave you two very important ones to show how they phenotypically differ from europeans ''There face shapes do not look european or part european. There nasal features, general air of the face do not in my opinion show/exhibit european influence.'' I have seen many photos of kalash. There faces shapes are nothing like europeans. Neither are there nasal features. The same I feel about the ethnic kashmiris (those who have no known or visible/obvious admixture). There face shapes and nasal features too are nothing like europeans. However I only need one feature to distinguish kalash/kashmiris from europeans. Although there are many more from which I can tell the two apart . That feature is skin texture (not skin colour). This is why I said images are not the best way to judge. This might sound offensive but it is supported by a lot of evidence. You can do a quick google search and you will find that many non-whites can clearly tell europeans apart on the basis of there skin texture. That is european skin texture is very different from south asian (non-white) skin texture. Europeans have a animalistic /mutated pig skinned skin texture. That is very obviously different from non white skin texture. In candid photos taken in very natural light you can sometimes see what european skin looks like in real life compared to in there photos of them. People who have never seen europeans in real life will not know but those who have are easily able to tell the difference between the european animalistic mutated pig skin and non white skin. On the basis of this feature alone if I was to see a group of kalash and europeans in real life I would be able to clearly tell they belong to two distinct seperate groups. You might want/wish the kalash even ethnic kashmiris to have european admixture but the reality is it is very unlikely for both groups. If anything it is obvious neither groups do. You might just simply find it harder to tell caucasion groups apart than others. You would have to have a very detailed understanding of biological ethnic group differences which most people do not have. It is therefore no surprise to see many people connect two groups together (due to there lack of knowledge about ethnic differences) who can otherwise clearly be told apart. The european influence in this burusho girl is obvious. This is a pretty candid photo in natural light. You can see her real skin texture clearly. I can tell on the basis of just her skin texture she is a european mix. She has a semi pinkish mutated animalistic skin texture similar to europeans no doubt from her european ancestry. She also has clear european blandness to her face. Her nasal features and her face shape exhibit european influence too. It is obvious she clearly has european admixture. I have read the burusho are ancient european/south asian mixes. https://camarilloacupuncture.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/noor.jpg Here is another example of two burusho girls. There skin texture too looks so obviously european. Even the little darker skin colour of the one of the girls does nothing to take away the obvious european influence on her skin texture. Sorry but it is very likely kalash, even ethnic kashmiris have european admixture. If it is determined ethnic kashmiris have no european admixture. This would make kashmiris unique compared to a lot of mainland indians in terms of lacking a lot of the major lineages present in that region (australoid, negrito, mongloid, european). This is not to say you would not find these lineages in kashmir. You would but in a small percentage. As I stated there is no doubt european admixture in kashmir because there is european presence in the region in present times. Kashmiris are know to marry europeans and no douht have historically married them too.However I personally see nothing in the culture/phenotypes of kashmiris that suggests they have mixed with europeans on a large/larger scale but only that some percentage of the population has european admixture. The three main ways European genes could have got into the kashmiri gene pool is via kashmiris directly mixing with europeans, via indians/pakistanis who are carriers of european genes (european hybrids in other words) who have mixed with ethnic kashirmiris. For the first there would have to have been direct large scale mixing between europeans and kashmiris. I see nothing apart from speculation to support this. The Northern european component (the so called indo european genes) that north indians are said to have including kashmiris is around 10-15% on average. 10-15% is not a minute/insignificant amount. It is somewhat significant and most certainly would express in phenotype to the point of being able to somewhat easily see this influence. Imagine a european with 10-15% mongloid or african admixture. The only difference is mongloid/african admixture in a caucssion is easier for many to detect than caucasion/caucasion admixture. In the case of european cultural influence in kashmir in there political elite (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farooq_Abdullah). Mongrel european mixed leaders in there political elite are no surprise considering kashmir is under domination of india which itself has historically seen a lot of european influence and till present times continue to exhibit a lot of european influence (Sonia Ghandi). Since kashmiris are under indian control/domination it is only natural you would find similar cultural influence in there region. That would explain a lot about the mongrel leaders of kashmir. Kashmir is also said to have been historically an independent region for just over half of it's history. http://www.greaterkashmir.com/news/opinion/kashmir-as-a-separate-country/251636.html Do you honestly believe that in times kashmiris ruled over themselves, in times they were independent as a region they would have had mongrel european mixed political leaders like Omar/Farooq abdullah or that they were marrying europeans to the extent they do today? ''Finally, in terms of genetic data to say the Kalash have no European ancestry depends on what you consider "European" Yes it does. This is exactly what am saying. This is why if you have ready my argument properly you will notice I keep emphasising/pointint out ''authentic european admixture''. That is not admixture that is perceived to be european but actual european admixture.European genes are european genes. Non european genes can not be european genes (vice versa) in terms of genetic fact/reality but they can be european genes (vice versa) in terms of perception. Am not talking about perceptions. Am talking about reality. Genetic reality/fact. So when I say kalash and even likely kashmiris have no european asmixture am talking about genetic facts not genetic perception. If they had european admixture in the case of kashmiris at the rate 10-15% that is the northern european component attributed to them this would no doubt clearly exhibit in there phenptypes. What am saying is I see no such influence. That is why am questioning if the 10-15% northern european component present in north indians is ALL true authentic european admixture because as you have pointed out there is what is percieved to be ''european'' and what is ''european''. By now you should know if you have understood my argument regards the kalash/kashmiris properly that I base my opinion of them having no european admixture mainly on the basis of there appearance/phenotypes along with a lack of a direct cultural connection to europeans and not on DNA test results. DNA tests likely can determine ancestry but genetics is very very complicated and people are subject to interpret the same genes differently and assign there origin to different groups. In other words DNA test results can be manipulated by interpretation. Phenotypes can not be manipulated (except by plastic surgery which is obviously only applicable in a small amount/number and even then continuous generations would have to have plastic surgery to keep the look up) hence are far more reliable. It not a case of me finding it difficult to see european influence. I have seen what appeared to me as european influence in many people whom I later have found out actually do have european ancestry. Many well know indians (Arjun Rampal/Arun Nayor,Aishwarya rai, Aditi Govitrikar) show clear european influence. The burusho girls mentioned earlier are another example where I can see obvious european influence. You can disagree all you like but it is more than obvious these people have european ancestry/admixture. From skin texture, face shapes, the european like blandness of there face, there intermediate hair texture which is intermediate looking to south asians and europeans. Hair that is neither too thin and fine but neither thick-very thick like south asians etc....a variety of traits those who appear to show european influence share with many european mixes none of which I see in Kalash/Kashmiris. http://static2.bornrichimages.com/cdn2/500/500/91/c/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/ar_thumb.jpg http://www.biographia.co.in/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Aditi-Govitrikar-Wiki-Biography-Age-Weight-Height-Profile-Info..jpg https://i.ndtvimg.com/i/2017-05/aishwarya-rai-bachchan_640x480_61495695316.jpg https://953dbb3e023d8d2081dc-a6ac47d7e9972b6bed5824eadfd0b772.ssl.cf3.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/arjun-rampal-new.jpg If I did not know Katrina Kaif was half european. I still would not have believed she was fully ethnic kashmiri. I can see genetic influence in her that looks clearly european to me. This same influence I see in many european mongrels. Again this is in her very candid photos/images of which is hard to get hold of but there are some around. Again her skin texture looks clearly intermediate between european and south asian. In her candid photos you can see her skin texture more clearly. She has blandness oin her face reminiscent of euroopeans. Her thinner lips, hair texture again that looks intermediate between south asian and european hair texture. European hair texture is thin and fine. South asian tends to be a little thicker/coarser compared to europeans. In her case though her nose and face shape is more south asian. The point being to be able to spot european admixture requires only being able to connect a group/individual on the basis of at least just one feature that is unique to europeans and no other group to be sure that they have european admixture. European skin and hair texture is very different from south asian. The problem arises if/where phenotypes overlap. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZuP8njscmo ''The comparison of the DNA of Kalash people with the DNA of ancient hunter-gatherers and European farmers showed that the Kalash people have greater genetic affinity with paleolithic hunter-gatherers in Siberia and it is likely that they are an ancient tribe of northern Eurasia. This ancestral component spoken of is known as ‘Ancient Northern Eurasian’ or ANE which is actually a significant component in Europe, particularly Eastern Europe and is now associated in large part to the spread of Indo-European languages. Take a look at the sources below.'' I was going to mention this because I take it you are referring to the same thing I mean. I did read that kalash have had a significant contribution (30-35%) from a northern european like population at some point back in there ancestry. However as I said as far as what present genetic findings state on them this component has not been attributed as european in origin just european-like. There is a difference between genetic affinity/similarity and authentic admixture. Phenotype can overlap in humans so you have ethnically different groups who may exhibit the same phenptype yet not have inter-mixed with each other. Then it is entirely possible genes can overlap too. Where you have two ethnically distinct groups sharing similar/same genes without this being a result of inter-mixture. Do you honestly believe if Kalash had 30-35% european admixture, a significant percentage that this influence would not be very obvious in there phenotypes to the point there would express phenotypes that are characteristic of european mixes? Historcally there have been many examples of these mixes and to this day are and they all share certain similar phenptypic traits that tie them back to europeans. It is more likely this affinity is admixture from a population that was genetically similar to europeans. That is non-european. The same with kashmiris. I feel this 10-15% northern european component attributed to them is not authentic european admixture but likely from a genetically european-like group. As I stated before many migrations in to south asia occurred back then likely too from groups we do not know of today. There very likely were european-like groups too who migrated to the South Asia region. Therefore to go back to what you said earlier '' in terms of genetic data to say the Kalash have no European ancestry depends on what you consider "European" . No it does not. It does not depend on what you consider european. That is not what am talking about as I keep re-iterating. Am talking about ''authentic european admixture. This admixture is not based on perception but on genetic facts/reality. The difference between perception and genetic reality. Given the lack of european influence in the phenotypes of kalash/kashmiris. No evidence of large scale mixing with europeans in there region in recent times like for example in the way the colonial british mixed with the indians when they colonised the region. It is more likely this northern european like admixture attributed to kashmiris and kalash is likely from a european like group as opposed to authentic european admixture. It is likely only labelled european or european-like today because europeans are the closest people who exhibit likely genetic similarity to the genes or it is possible other groups do exhibit genetic similarity to these genes too but for the sake of argument they have been labelled european. You have to remember even those who conduct DNA test studies make it clear genes are only attributed to the population/group that shows the highest frequency of that gene. That is no way necessarily means that group is the origin of that gene. DNA studies are hardly accurate means to assign ancestry even as stated by those who conduct these tests. Now I can not state what I have said is the last word on this matter because until we know more about the specific regions of south asia/india the indo europeans settled, the numbers that migrated, what degree of genetic impact they made etc....we are limited on information to base our case off. This northern european like admixture in kashmiris is speculated to be indo european genes/admixture. That is admixiture from indo european speaking tribes/people that migrated to south asia. It has not been established without a trace of doubt that it is indo-european admixture (european). It is just speculation. Sorry if it dissappoints you but Kalash and Kashmiris very unlikely have european admixture. They are both groups who have lived in geographically isolated regions for many thousands of years. The kalash have not seen much gene flow into there region for a long time. Kashmiris have historically mixed with europeans however gene flow into Kashmir too has been controlled. It if had not been ethnic kashmiris would not have retained there look today. They would look more like typical indians. When a small group (kashmiris) absorbs a large group (indians) this alters the phenotype significantly. I do not state this as the last word on the matter because it is still fairly early days as far as genetics goes but given the significant percentage 10-35% european/european-like admixture that is attributed to these groups. This is not a minute amount. It is somewhat significant to significant. There is no way admixture of any type if it has not been diluted out to remain ancestral to a group would not exhibit in the phenptypes of any group said to have such admixture. If the Kalash/Kashmiris do have European admixture then 10% at a minimum is more than enough for it to exhibit in there phenotypes. It is there phenptypes that need to be studied more carefully because the clues evidence has to be there. I have seen in many european mixes. Some of whom I have known were european mixes. Others whom I did not know were mixed with european genes. However with many of the one's I did not know were mixed with european genes I still felt they exhibited some european type influence in there looks only to later find out that they did indeed have european admixture/ancestry. Case in point is Arjun Rampal above. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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