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New (?) Irish paper on ancient Sudanese dental morphology
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Big O: [qb] But that to me this is where Western racial hypocrisy sets in. When it comes to Africa rarely are East African variants used as the reference population for Africa, and instead these African variants are treated often as non African despite being indigenous. When it comes Eurasia, with their vast completely arbitrary collective why are their biological templates never pigeon holed like Africa?..[/qb][/QUOTE]You're right, and notice it is always [b]North[/b] Africans who get segregated from the rest of Africans and grouped with Eurasians. However, Eurasians are NOT arbitrarily grouped into one collective particularly as it pertains to odontic traits. As I explained to Thereal, Eurasian populations are divided into a number of dental complexes. The only one Irish uses in his studies of Africans is the [b]West[/b] Eurasian complex all the other Eurasian complexes being irrelevant. But again noting the hypocrisy you speak of, Irish's former colleague and leading expert in the use of non-metric dental characteristics in bio-anthropology was the late [URL=https://news.asu.edu/20201228-memory-influential-anthropologist-christy-g-turner-ii]Dr. Christy G. Turner II[/URL] of Arizona State University whose odontological data at ASU is still widely used by experts like Irish himself. It was Turner who recognized that East Asian peoples were divided into two main dental complexes-- a more generalized simpler Sundadonty and more derived and complex Sinodonty. [IMG]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-7vKns4v43wQ/U-VAaRbt-_I/AAAAAAAAC50/eFKCWYWr7Y0/s1600/sinodont-sundadont+map.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0047248403001246-gr3.gif[/IMG] ^ Yet nobody denies that both complexes are related as are the peoples they belong to. Yet when it comes to Africa, Irish separates North Africans completely from 'Afridonty' and groups them with Western Eurasians despite the obvious affinities which I already listed prior. I believe even Dr. Turner himself pointed out the discrepancy in this! [QUOTE][qb]How can Western Eurasians be a biological template when we KNOW that they have received MASSIVE amounts of African geneflow over the last 5,000 years. What discretion is used by researchers to imply that these Western Eurasians themselves have biological variants due to recent African geneflow? With that being said how on Earth can they be described as anything other than mulattoes of their respective region?[/qb][/QUOTE]Well I don't know about "massive" amounts. But they obviously received some as Irish admits that the 1st upper molar Carabelli's trait has its highest frequency in North Africans and suggests that its presence in Eurasians means that its due to North African admixture. Much of the African admixture in Eurasians was more evident in ancient especially Neolithic times but was subsumed by further Eurasian demic expansions. [QUOTE][qb]He reinforced that claim in the earlier study with the graphic that you posted back in 2013 though;' "In contrast, Irish and Turner (1990) and Irish (2000, 2005) noted that Pleistocene Nubians (in particular those of Jebel Sahaba skeletons) were as a group quite different from recent Nubians for dental discreet traits yet [b]shared great phenetic affinity with recent West African populations[/b] ." -- T.W. Holiday 2013 ("Population Affinities of the Jebel Sahaba Skeletal Sample") So he's been making this claim of West African affinity in pre-historic Nubia for quite a while now. I wouldn't imagine that it was a fluke when the researchers evidence keeps supporting this.[/qb][/QUOTE]Irish [i]is[/i] correct that Mesolithic Nubians share great phenetic affinity with modern West Africans, But to what degree is the issue! Again, the reason why the Mesolithic Nubians are an outlier is due to their archaic traits which modern West Africans lack. So the relation exists but it's just not as close or as recent as Irish seems to make it sound. [QUOTE][qb]But as you can see in the quote from his 2013 study however, that there was apparently a head to head comparison between recent Afro-Asiatic and Nilotic speakers and modern West African groups. He finds that these modern groups in the East African region do not share close affinity with the Pleistocene inhabitants. Are we talking about a ghost population? And if so, did this ghost population share a common ancestor with modern day West Africans? Did they die off? Where are they TODAY? [/qb][/QUOTE]We can't really say without DNA evidence directly tied to the remains. I will say, that autosomal evidence (I forgot which study) shows a common ancestral link between modern Nilo-Saharan speaking southern Sudanese like Dinka and Afroasiatic speaking Horn Africans like Somali. Could this be related to Late Pleistocene Nile Valley folk? Who knows? [/QB][/QUOTE]
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