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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Antalas: [qb] Yes between afrocentrists now you'll face the facts.[/qb][/QUOTE]No. These findings were made available to everyone in this forum not just "Afrocentrics". So I know the facts which you desperately attempt to twist. Also Egypt like the rest of North Africa is still [b]AFRICAN[/b] so that label is nonsensical. [QUOTE][qb]There has never been an all "black" egypt or one race of Egyptians. It showed variation like today.[/qb][/QUOTE]Again with your twisting of facts, we know when you use the label "black" you refer to a specific phenotype which nobody in here ever claimed. Yes Egypt showed variation but not exactly like today since today's Egyptians are the result of large scale admixture with Eurasians. The ancients were not. Even Keita said that the ancient variation was indigenous. [QUOTE][qb]Therefore why do you consider some of their traits as local or Egyptian? Why spamming pictures of people with foreign ancestry ? [/qb][/QUOTE]What the hell are you talking about?! When I said "mixed" unions I was referring to mixing between Upper Egyptians (who possess traits they share with Nubians) and Lower Egyptians who represent Coastal North African types! [b]LOL[/b] The so-called Nubian features which you claim are "foreign" are actually NOT at all but local to southern Egypt moron, as your own source shows!! [b]LMAO[/b] [QUOTE][qb]The bust might be misleading yes but how does that contradict a possible Nubian origin for Tiye? Lower Nubians actually were more Eurasian shifted before being gradually altered by geneflow from further south with a massive change during the Meroitic period:[/qb][/QUOTE]First you say Tiye is not Nubian and her bust is rotted old wood even though it's painted, now you say she is Nubian. Again this double mindedness of yours only shows your confusion if not dishonesty. There is nothing in the records or archaeology to show that Tiye or her family were Nubian. They all indicate she comes from Akhmim. Also what do you mean by "Eurasian shifted"?? [QUOTE] "[i]After a long period of depopulation which affected it during a millennium, [b]Lower Nubia is occupied at the beginning of our era by populations of a very different physiognomy from those of the pharaonic group, with negroid characters already affirmed as we have underlined. There is no doubt that the introduction of the black element in Lower Nubia comes especially from this period and is amplified in the passage from the Meroitic culture to that of group X. We can follow its progression by the increasing differences in CH2 and by the increase in variability that mainly affects the "negroid characters" (Billy, 1975). Finally, it should be noted that the upward current of black infiltration does not reach Upper Egypt,[/b] since the samples from this same period at Denderah (D', D") or Manfalut (MA) do not show any differences with respect to the Egyptian-Nubian population background established since the beginning of the dynastic era.[/i] " [/QUOTE] https://www.persee.fr/doc/bmsap_0037-8984_1981_num_8_3_3828?q=n%C3%A9groide Oh, of course! How predictable. [b]LOL[/b] The Mesolithic Nubians were more "negroid" in morphology in contrast to the Neolithic Nubians who were more "caucasoid", but since when does "caucasoid" morphology mean Eurasian?? Again this shows your stubborn ignorance if not stupidity when it comes morphological typology. Are you aware that Mesolithic remains in Kenya also exhibit "caucasoid" morphology, does that mean they are "Eurasian" too?! Also if Nubia had massive Sub-Saharan influence during the Meroitic Period then how come the odontic features don't show it? [IMG]https://i.imgur.com/OkbCeCD.gif[/IMG] It seems both the Meroitic and X-Group peoples are classified squarely as North African and not even intermediate to Sub-Saharans. [QUOTE][i]More new is the fact, already suspected in Soleb by G. Billy and M.C.Chamla (1981), [b]that in Nubia, the nasal index, identical to the European values at the origin, increases considerably then to join the figures observed in central Africa; at the same time, the dental anthropologists (Greene 1972, 1981; Carlson and Van Gerven 1979; Small 1981; Calcagno 1986) observe a morphological reduction of the dentition. This phenomenon of nasal enlargement could not, in Nubia, be linked to the humidification of the climate since it was, on the contrary, aridified, and thus comes from genetic exchanges, in the sense of a greater contribution from Black Africa;[/b] it is up to archaeology to link this evolution with cultural mutations.[/i] [/QUOTE] https://www.persee.fr/doc/jafr_0399-0346_1994_num_64_1_2391?q=mechta#jafr_0399-0346_1994_num_64_1_T1_0050_0000 Okay? What about the Badarians who also had large nasal indices? Do they have negroid admixture as well, even though their hair texture was loose and wavy? What about Australian Aborigines who have among the highest nasal indices in the world yet they live in one of the most arid places on Earth? Do they have "negroid" admixture as well?? [b]LOL[/b] [QUOTE][qb]Who told you this wasn't done for Ramses II?[/qb][/QUOTE]Because I have heard of NO melanin studies done on him. Have you? If so, please present it. [QUOTE][qb]There has been no skin color allele testing for any egyptian mummy and I'm not expecting your regular tanned fellah to have lower level of melanin as many SSA groups. And "dark mediterranean" here does not refer to your pseudo-scientific taxonomic labels from the 1940s lol[/qb][/QUOTE]Of course, because if there was a skin allele test on Egyptian mummies I would have heard about it very likely in this forum. However a melanin dosage test [i]was[/i] performed on Middle Kingdom mummies by a German team in 2005: Determination of optimal rehydration, fixation and staining methods for histological and immunohistochemical analysis of mummified soft tissues 2005, Vol. 80, No. 1 , Pages 7-13 (doi:10.1080/10520290500051146) A-M Mekota1 and M Vermehren2 1Department of Biology I, Biodiversity Research/Anthropology, Ludwig-Maximilians University, Munich, Germany [i] Skin sections showed particularly good tissue preservation, although cellular outlines were never distinct. Although much of the epidermis had already separated from the dermis, the remaining epidermis often was preserved well (Fig. 1). [b]The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of Negroid origin.[/b] In the dermis, the hair follicles, hair, and sebaceous and sweat glands were readily apparent (Fig. 2). Blood vessels, but no red blood cells, and small peripheral nerves were identified unambiguously (Fig. 3). The subcutaneous layer showed loose connective tissue fibers attached to the dermis, and fat cell remnants were observed.[/i] [b]LMAO[/b] at you bringing up "pseudo-scientific taxonomic labels from the 1940s" even though you cling to racial terms from 18th century like "Caucasoid" and "Negroid" as if they are scientific valid! :D [QUOTE][qb]Haha see you're forced to recognize that they didn't share much similarities with most sub-saharan africans. Their type of hair is prevalent among eurasians not sub-saharans. Also most "north sudanese, ethiopians and somalis" do not have loose wavy hair but kinky/frizzy.[/qb][/QUOTE]Your ignorance betrays you as usual. The Egyptians actually shared a lot of similarities with Sub-Saharans-- dark skin coloring, skeletal builds, and yes even some cranio-morphological features including the so-called "caucasoid" features that are found in some Sub-Saharans and yes even loose hair-- the last trait is actually common among populations in the Sahara and in arid ares of East Africa. And yes that does mean MOST North Sudanese, (SOME Ethiopians) and Most Somalis and even West Saharan groups like the Tuareg and Moors. "[i]The place which was called El Gazie, ( 2 ) was a low sandy beach, having no trees in sight, nor any verdure. There was no appear-ance of mountain or hill ; nor (excepting only the rock on which the ship was wrecked) any thing but sand as far as the eve could reach. [b]The Moors [of Mauritania] were straight haired, but quite black[/b]; their dress consisted of little more than a rug or a skin round their waist, their upper parts and from their knees downwards, being wholly naked[/i]."--American Explorer Robert Adams (1810) Even anthropologists who studied Saharan populations like Lloyd Cabot Briggs and Oric Bates agree that even without Arab/Eurasian admixture the dominant hair type was loose and wavy and the same was said about Eastern Sahara and tribes of the Danakil and Somali deserts. The last two people groups have nil Eurasian admixture and yet they still have such hair. [QUOTE][qb]And yes straight/wavy hair appeared first among eurasians not sub-saharans:[/qb] [QUOTE] [b]Interestingly, different genes have been associated with straight hair in Europeans and East Asians, suggesting that this trait evolved independently at least twice. The most robust associations for straight hair have implicated Trichohyalin (TCHH, a structural hair protein) in Europeans14,15, and EDAR (a cell signalling receptor) in East Asians16, illustrating the range of cellular mechanisms that can impact on hair shape.[/b] [/QUOTE] https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10815 [/QUOTE]Pray tell where in that study does it say anything about loose hair in texture in Africans or that such was the result of the mutations found in Eurasian hair?? What you cited only mentioned that found in Europeans and East Asians. [QUOTE] [QUOTE]Recent studies have identified Asian-specific alleles of the EDAR and FGFR2 genes that are associated with thick, straight hair, [b]suggesting that these variants arose after the divergence of Asians and Europeans[/b] .3, [...] [b]The T allele at rs11803731 is the derived state and shows a striking geographic specificity to Europe and western-central Asia, reaching its highest frequency in Northern Europeans[/b] (Figure 1E), [b]suggesting that the variant arose somewhere in this broad region.[/b] [/QUOTE][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/3ySLwaD.jpg[/IMG] Common Variants in the Trichohyalin Gene Are Associated with Straight Hair in Europeans, 2009[/QUOTE]What about the loose hair texture of South Asians and Australian Aborigines?? The latter not only has loose straight hair but also light colored hair like auburn, red, and even blonde hair! Yet they're genomic tests show them to be the oldest Eurasian branch to diverge from the first Out-of-Africans. If that's the case, then is it not possible that loose hair evolved in Africa first?? Meanwhile I'll cite an actual trichometric study done on Egyptian hair: 'Egyptology: Hanging in the Hair' by Anu M'bantu and Fari Supia West Africa Magazine 8th July 2001 [i] In 1914, a white doctor in Detroit initiated divorce proceeding against his wife whom he suspected of being a "closet Negro". At the trial, the Columbia University anthropologist, Professor Franz Boas (1858-1942), was called upon as a race expert. Boas declared: "If this woman has any of the characteristics of the Negro race it would be easy to find them. ..One characteristic that is regarded as reliable is the hair. You can tell by microscopic examination of a cross-section of hair to what race that person belongs." With this revelation, trichology (the scientific analysis of hair) reached the American public. But what are these differences? The cross-section of a hair shaft is measured with an instrument called a trichometer. From this you can get measurements for the minimum and maximum diameter of a hair The minimum measurement is then divided by the maximum and then multiplied by a hundred. This produces an index. A survey of the scientific literature produces the following breakdown: San, Southern African 55.O0 Zulu, Southern African 55.O0 Sub-Saharan Africa 60.O0 Tasmanian (Black) 64.70 Australian (Black) 68.00 Western European 71.20 Asian Indian 73.00 Navajo American 77.00 Chinese 82.60 In the early 1970s, the Czech anthropologist Eugen Strouhal examined pre-dynastic Egyptian skulls at Cambridge University. He sent some samples of the hair to the Institute of Anthropology at Charles University, Prague, to be analyzed. The hair samples were described as varying in texture from "wavy" to "curly" and in colour from "light brown" to "black". Strouhal summarized the results of the analysis: "[b]The outline of the cross-sections of the hairs was flattened, with indices ranging from 35 to 65.[/b] These peculiarities also show the Negroid inference among the Badarians (predynastic Egyptians)." [b]The term "Negroid influence" suggests intermixture, but as the table suggests this hair is more "Negroid" than the San and the Zulu samples[/b], currently the most Negroid hair in existence! [b]In another study, hair samples from ten 18th- 25th dynasty individuals produced an average index of 51! As far back as 1877, Dr. Pruner-Bey analyzed six ancient Egyptian hair samples. Their average index of 64.4 was similar to the Tasmanians who lie at the periphery of the African-haired populations.[/b] A team of Italian anthropologists published their research in the Journal of Human Evolution in 1972 and 1980. They measured two samples consisting of 26 individuals from pre-dynastic, 12th dynasty and 18th dynasty mummies. [b]They produced a mean index of 66.50 The overall average of all four sets of ancient Egyptian hair samples was 60.02. Sounds familiar [/b]..., just check the table!..[/i] [QUOTE][qb]Your point? The Samples from upper and lower egypt are all closer to "bedouins" than to any sub-saharan population LOL and you used to called modern Egyptians "arabs" hahahahah and they are also closer to the maghreb than to SSA XD [/qb][/QUOTE]You mean the same modern Bedouins that the Abusir mummy genomic study show to possess Sub-Saharan ancestry that the Abusir mummies lack? https://i0.wp.com/www.gnxp.com/WordPress/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/egyptbar.jpg?resize=200%2C715 Also, I never said all modern Egyptians were Arabs you liar! 'Egyptian' is a nationality that includes different ethnic groups with the dominant one being Arabs, but you have other ethnic groups like Greeks of Alexandria to Nubians of Aswan. It is the Baladi people however who are the indigenous (true) ethnic Egyptians. [QUOTE][qb]They actually cluster closer to the European one than the Sub-Saharan one which includes ethnicities from West, central, south and east Africa and as you can see only the most Eurasian shifted Nubians plot close to the ancient Egyptian samples and the centroids of both lower and upper Egyptians are closer to Europe than the Nubian one.[/qb][/QUOTE]And again, moron you are talking about metric data which is not accurate in assessing ancestry only facial features. Having narrow that is "caucasoid" facial form does NOT make one "Eurasian" shifted. I already told you [URL=http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=next_topic;f=8;t=010507;go=older]before[/URL] that nonmetric traits are more accurate at assessing genetic relations and the nonmetrics show Egyptians to be closer related to ancient Sudanese groups than to anyone else. Even Hanihara's particular assessment of traits showed them to be intermediate between Sub-Saharans and non-Africans and NOT part of the non-African group. This is because genetic studies suggest Non-Africans descend from Africans who left from the northern part of the continent. North Africa is still part of Africa nitwit [QUOTE][qb]A fucking european has literally more rights to claim egyptians than afro-americans XD[/qb][/QUOTE][b]ROTFLMAO[/b] [IMG]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-kRFgNhQzLZs/UQYJTdNPtWI/AAAAAAAAYXk/RGWaRkB89lg/s1600/crop.gif[/IMG] Keep telling yourself that if it maintains your delusion. I guess I don't have to bring up the fact that Europeans have black African admixture which is why autosomally they are closer to West Africans than the latter is to South Africans. [QUOTE][qb]It seems like you don't pay attention: The E serie from the 26th dynasty is actually separated in the picture from an older E series (4th-6th dynasties). Also can you explain to us what such kind of skulls are doing next to the pyramids?[/qb][/QUOTE]No, I tend to not pay much attention to the postings of a deluded raving nutcase such as yourself. Okay if you are referring to the older E series they seem to represent an outlying type of the Egyptian series in one direction. [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/8VqkFsY.jpg[/IMG] The Badarians form another in the other direction. That's just part of the diversity in the region. Your point? [QUOTE][qb]The paper highlight continuity with all modern egyptians not only with your cherrypicked "baladi" who are not black btw.[/qb][/QUOTE]Of course there's continuity as the indigenous Egyptians never left, but you can't deny the historical change in demographics due to foreign incursions. And yes we know what "black" means in your mind which the rest of the world disagrees. [QUOTE][qb]Modern egyptians are the closest thing to ancient egyptians: [same picture spam sh*t][/qb][/QUOTE]But [i]which[/i] modern Egyptians? I told you modern Egypt is ethnically diverse. You mean to tell me fair-skinned actors of Arab or Circassian ancestry represent the ancient Egyptians better than rural Baladi? [b]LOL[/b] [QUOTE][qb]and certainly not these clowns XDDDD : [strawman sh*t spam] [/qb][/QUOTE]Nobody said black Americans were Egyptians loon, however they sure are closer to it than white muktabas like yourself and your Euro cohorts! [b]LOL[/b] [/QB][/QUOTE]
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