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Response Against Great Zimbabwe Being Black
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Archeopteryx: [QB] [QUOTE]Some? [Big Grin] The vast MAJORITY of Black Americans reject the notion to always have been native to the Americas as Indians. [Roll Eyes] It's clear you have no idea what you are talking about. [Cool] But who made these? Was it Black Americans? I ask so, to understand the correlation to the 5 dollar pretendians[/QUOTE]Well, some claim that their ancestors always been in America, others claim that Africans (Egyptians, Nubians, West Africans) came to the Americas in precolumbian times and built civilisations like the Olmec, the Maya, Aztec, Moundbuilder, Inca and so on. There are some different versions. I have followed some of the discussions about this for a couple of years now and I heard the most hilarious statements, whereof some are promoted rather aggressively. I can later make a list of some books and videos where such claims are promoted. So enough many make the claims for it to be considered as a nuisance by some Native Americans, they feel that they already lost so much after 500 years of genocide and land theft and now some people also try to steal their history. Maybe you can not understand their frustration since you prefer to excuse black people because they have had traumatic experiences in the past. But guess what, so have Native Americans. I have no number on exactly how many black Americans who reject the historical distortions or how many promotes it, especially in public, I do not know if anyone have made some research about it yet. [QUOTE]Black Americans are traumatized victims, it's not what I seem to think. It's a historical well documented fact! So yeah, there is a lot to complain about. What do you think would happen to a people being subjected to racism and injustices generation after generation?[/QUOTE]But they are still grown up people, and it is no excuse for trying to appropriate another peoples history, or try to take credit for their achievements. It is no excuse for spreading false information and pure lies in books, articles, on social media or in other ways, or trying to infiltrate schools with the nonsense. It is no excuse for poaching on a smaller, also traumatized minorities cultural heritage. [QUOTE]What comparisons are you talking about and what is supposedly fair about what? Show me the images and articles of these Native Americans you are talking about. Lastly, Black people are behind what fakery exactly? [/QUOTE]I talked about the comparison you rejected, between white fringe groups claiming Great Zimbabwe as a white civilisation and some Black fringe groups claiming the Olmecs as a black civilisation. I know that the ideas of a white Great Zimbabwe and white Egyptians and similar ideas first rose in a colonialist context, but that does not make it OK for some African Americans to mimic similar ideas and denying others their history. The fakery is when black people claim that they are the original Native Americans, or that Africans came to America and created several of its cultures and civilisation. Fakery is when some people claim that the Olmecs used Mande language in their inscriptions. Fakery is when some claim that the Bonampak murals depict Africans, or that Africans taught Native Americans to build pyramids, or that Cahokia was built by black/African people, just to take a few examples. I have participated in online communities, and also had other forms of communcation, with Native Americans for some years now, and I have been member of online groups specially dedicated to refute the false narratives about ancient Native American cultures that are spread by the fringe groups, and which is promoted in social media, in books, videos and other ways. I have also debated directly with some of the proponents for these theories. [QUOTE]What other problem are you talking about? Some individuals who claim to have been in the Americas for thousands of years? It's probably something like 1% who claim this. Some indeed have admixture as well. As is documented by historical events.[/QUOTE]You seem to have difficulties in understanding what I write. You talk about the white pretendians, and it is a problem. And some Black groups wanting to distort Native American history is another problem. And that some of those African Americans want to sneak such narratives into school curricula is another problem. And I do not talk about mixed people, it is a well known fact that Native Americans and Black people have mixed for centuries. I talk about those who claim that Blacks (Africans, or "original" black people) built the ancient Native American cultures in precolumbian times, or those who say that Native Americans are recently arrived, Siberian or mongolian Invaders. Some even claim that most Native Americans descend from Asians who were imported by the whites to replace the original black peoples, so they (the black people) could be used as slaves. There are many fringe ideas out there, and some Native Americans take offense about some of those ideas. It is maybe 1% of Black Americans who claim such a thing, but they are rather active spreading their messages. Especially on social media, but also through books. I even seen examples of childrens books where those kinds of messages are spread. You always come back to the 5 dollar Indians. They are a problem, but those blacks who want to distort Native history is also considered a problem. There are Native Americans that are afraid that those ideas will spread, infiltrate the school system, or vorse influence politicians, which could have an impact on Native life (concerning land rights and similar). Maybe some of the worries are exaggerated, but Native Americans have been badly treated through history so some of them gets very supicious when other groups starts to talk about that they (the Natives) are not the original Americans, and that Black people have more right to their land. [QUOTE] Whites wrote this and somehow it's "Afrocentric"? [Big Grin] Sir ma'am, it, you have mental issues. [/QUOTE]I did not write Haslip Vieras book. I did not make the podcast. If you donīt like their vocabulary I suppose you can take it up with them. I do not know if you listened to the podcast, it is interesting and it explains some of the problems with historical distortions. One can also add that some of the worst fringe types now and then post stuff that upset Native Americans more than usual, and native Americans have even received threats online and sometimes in telephone. Seems the fringe movement attract one or another not so stable person. Here is just an example of how toxic some of them can be. I have seen worse. Some of it is probably trolling, but it still upsets, and it is rather consistent. If you had followed these discussions some time you would see some examples of rather bad behaviour. [IMG]https://i.ibb.co/CvsY75q/Racist-sm.jpg[/IMG] Fortunately some people trying to refute some of the crazy claims. Also African Americans like this young man: Angry woman refuted by an African American https://www.tiktok.com/@themurphyshow/video/6965774607454375173?is_copy_url=1&is_from_webapp=v1 Here is one Facebook page created by a Native American which adresses the Black Olmec myth. In some way the Olmecs has come to be a kind of symbol for much of the claims and speculations that are promoted in books,articles, pods, videos and social media, and sometimes even in school curricula. Olmecs were not African https://www.facebook.com/people/Olmecs-were-not-African/100063493871541/ One can add that it sometimes seems like everyone wants a piece of the Native American cake, since so many claim that their ancestors (or some other preferred group) visited the Americas in precolumbian times, teaching the Natives all kinds of cultural traits, like writing or building pyramids. Pre-Columbian transoceanic contact theories - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_transoceanic_contact_theories Olmec alternative origin speculations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olmec_alternative_origin_speculations It is not only Black people who make speculations about other peoples predating Native Americas, which the debates about the Solutrean hypothesis or the Kennewick man show. Some white fringe groups have used such speculations to claim that whites were first in the Americas. Even if the problem with fringe groups trying to enchroach on Native American history is not a big problem for you (or many others who do not care about such issues), it still is a problem for some Natives. They see it as just another way for other groups to further marginalize them. It is also funny that some Black pople get upset if non blacks claim the Egyptians where light skinned, or react negatively if someone claim that North Africans always been light skinned. One can even see such discussions here on ES. At least Native Americans live in the land where some of the fakery is produced, while most black Americans do not live in Egypt, and many have perhaps not even visited Egypt or know any Egyptians. For you the Black fringe groups that claim Native American history in different ways are perhaps not a problem, but for some Native Americans it is. And in the end it is what matters. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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