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Ancient African Queens: New Perspectives on Black History
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doug M: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: [qb] ^ Egyptology is a field of study comprised of individual scholars [/qb][/QUOTE]Where did I say otherwise? And why are you using straw men to defend these scholars who I have never personally said anything bad about? [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: [qb] whatever beef you have traditional Egyptology with its racist past has nothing to do with the topic of this thread or as far as we know the Egyptologists featured. [/qb][/QUOTE]What does this have to do with "beef"? Since when has any thread on this forum that debates facts and information related to history and anthropology been about beefs? You are arguing a strawman. [b]LIKE I SAID[/b] African history does not start with so-called "Nubia". And if anybody is going to talk about the history of "Nubia" as the beginning of advanced civilization in African history or on the Nile then I will disagree with them. I have stated this numerous times and somehow YOU seem to be offended by this for some dumb reason. It is a fact. That isn't irrational and the whole point here is that all of that history on the Nile is African history not simply so-called "Nubia". And if you think I am attacking any specific scholar, then you are wrong because I have threads going back many years on this forum saying the exact same thing. Not to mention I have been dealing with these debates on African history for many years and it isn't like I just came to these ideas yesterday. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: [qb] Whatever attempt at racial separation [/qb][/QUOTE]Another strawman not even addressing what I said. Obviously you are just really desperate to make something up to fight against instead of addressing the point. There was no "Nubia" before the Roman Era. I know a lot of people have a problem with that statement and I understand. But it is a fact. You haven't refuted the point that "Nubia" starting with Reisner and in Egyptology has been used as a synonym for African. Then you posted some nonsense trying to defend yourself with no proof. Such as: [QUOTE] That's incorrect. The Egyptian word for 'south' is 'rshwt' (reshut). The term used for 'Nubians' is Nhsw (Nehesu) and their land Ta Nehesi which designated the region the Romans called 'Nubia'. [/QUOTE]The term most often used for specific southern kingdoms was Ta Seti. And I provided the actual quote of the Prophecy of Neferti stating a king named Ameny would come from the South and restore the kingdom, obviously referring to Amenhemat. I posted his statues showing his hairstyles as African. So why doesn't Egyptology or Nubiology include him as "Nubian" or at the least black African, if what you are saying is valid? As for the word "Nehesy" it refers to names of specific individuals, not a place called "Ta Nehesy". And since you posted the term "Ta Nehesy" as an actual place, I think you need to check your sources because I have never seen such a place mentioned in any ancient text. Not to mention where are the official Egyptology references calling the braided hairstyles of the old and middle kingdom "African braids"? Just do that and stop with these straw man arguments. Not to mention where and when has Egyptology suddenly started officially and publicly acknowledging the dynastic era as African? Still waiting for your evidence of this. They are still making reconstructions of King Tut for goodness sake trying to "reinterpret" the facts for a modern audience as anything but African. And I mean official statements or texts from actual people who are scholars within Egyptology not just some random web page on the net. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: [qb] you are seeing is obviously in your head, because none of the scholars deny that Egyptians were as African as the Nubians to their south. Apparently you seem to misinterpret [i]any[/i] type of distinction between Kmt and Nhsi as racial when it is clearly just [i]cultural[/i]. Yes Egyptians were culturally distinct from non-Egyptians even if they were fellow Africans like Nubians and Libyans. That does not make Egyptians less African so whatever paranoia trip your own leave me out of it! [/qb][/QUOTE]And this is you pretending to speak for Egyptology when you don't. And if there is a debate at this point it is between me and YOU not me and Egyptology in general since YOU are the one pretending to represent their views on this subject (contrary to all the facts). This is what Egyptology literally says about "Nubia" in today: [QUOTE] The evidence for Nubians in Egypt may be divided into written sources and archaeological record: the human remains from the latter would provide the most direct or primary sources, but they have not been analysed in numbers or methods suitable for demographic studies. The classic Middle Egyptian phase of the Egyptian language provides evidence for Egyptian attitudes to the inhabitants of lands immediately south of Egypt: there seem to have been two main words used, Nehesy (nHsy) for inhabitants of the river valley, and Medjay (mDAy) for a group or groups from the deserts east of the Nubian Nile Valley. This indicates the view from Egypt, as mediated through language: it is possible that it represents a simplifying generalisation for a more complex linguistic and ethnic map of Nubia. [b]The evidence for Nubians living in Middle Kingdom Egypt is open to several interpretations. The name Nehesy - 'Nubian' appears several times: does it refer to a Nubian, either born in Egypt or someone who changed their foreign name? Was it just a 'fashion' to call somebody 'Nubian' or was the child darker-skinned than usual so that the parents decided to give him that name? What does darker skin mean? This question leads to the modern debate over race in ancient Egypt.[/b] [b]Dark skinned people are sometimes depicted in Middle Kingdom art. It is again very difficult to draw any conclusion from this. It seems almost impossible to decide, whether these were Nubians or whether the dark skin is chosen for other reasons ('rebirth').[/b] Further research is needed, with a comprehensive catalogue illustrated in colour for all examples of each period. For the Second Intermediate Period there is good evidence from material culture that inhabitants from the Nubian eastern desert settled in Egypt (pan-graves). [/QUOTE] https://www.ucl.ac.uk/museums-static/digitalegypt/nubia/nubians.html A key part to note is that even when the name "Nehesy" shows up even then they don't automatically assume that it means having so-caled "Nubian" ancestry. Which shows how inconsistent and arbitrary the usage of the term is. Otherwise if they were being consistent then the Middle Kingdom 12th dynasty would be called "Nubian" along with the beginning of the 18th dynasty and Ahmose Nefertari, but they dont because the usage of the term "Nubia" is always to separate the dynastic culture from Africa. Always has been and still is to this day. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: [qb] As far as the 'Nubian' wig or hairstyle, what proof do you have that it didn't originate from Nubians?? It's pretty much a consensus in Egyptology that Nubian wigs were adopted by Egyptians during the Amarna period [i]from[/i] Nubian soldiers and nobles who served in the royal court. Again how this an attack on Kmt's African identity? Can't an African people adopt the styles of another African people?? In fact if you saw the topic feature video, both Dr. Maitland and Dr. Ashby show many cultural items that originated in Nubia but which the Egyptians partake of. [/qb][/QUOTE]You haven't provided any proof. The burden is on you since you claim that this is valid and sound anthropology. I already made my point very clear. You are just stating the same thing with no real proof. Ultimately the problem here is that there are no ancient sources from other kingdoms or cultures on the ancient Nile documenting their hair styles or cultural traditions. You are depending on the art of the dynastic era to use as "proof" but that art was created by people of the dynastic kingdom and not so called "Nubians". My point is that as Africans, the dynastic kingdom [b]ALWAYS[/b] wore African hairstyles common to other Africans on the Nile. There was never a time when they did not wear Afros, braids, locks and curls similar to other cultures on the Nile and in other parts of Africa. So what you see in the New Kingdom is just another example of a common pattern of African culture that was common between different groups of Africans. And to prove that it originated with so-called "Nubians" requires more than just artwork from the dynastic era. This is the kind of simplistic thinking that I am rejecting because it is stupid. Just like we will never know when the first braided hairstyle or Afro was worn, we will never know who or when the first so-called "lappet style" hair was worn either. These are simply African hairstyles that were common among different groups of Africans and it is impossible to say when or where something as ubiquitous as African braids originated just based on art work. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: [qb] Nefertiti here wears the so-called Nubian wig. [b]Formerly this wig had been worn almost exclusively by Nubian soldiers serving in pharaoh's army.[/b] Nefertiti seems to have adopted it as her personal symbol. She popularized the Nubian wig to such an extent that both men and women frequently wore it at el Amarna.[/i] [/qb][/QUOTE]What soldiers and where? What tomb or temple are you referring to that shows this? And what makes these soldiers "Nubian" vs "Egyptian". This is the core problem with this line of reasoning and I really would like to see where this "evidence" is at. What sources are you using for this because if this is legit those images should still exist. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: [qb] Another example of style adoption would be the large shield-like earrings which was also originally a Nubian style but adopted by the 18th dynasty. Again Kiya wearing a Nubian wig, but also note the earring she wears. It bears a striking resemblance to the type of earrings found in Sai Island, Nubia as shown below. [/qb][/QUOTE]Again, as Africans the people of the Dynastic Era have [b]ALWAYS[/b] been wearing African hairstyles. Just like they have always been wearing loin cloths. Just like they have always been using African pottery. This isn't something that they adopted from so-called "Nubia" in the New Kingdom. It goes all the way back to the beginning as part of the fundamental African origin of the entire culture. This line of reasoning is dumb and that is just how I look at it no matter who it is that is saying it. Nothing personal against you or anybody else but that is just dumb. Again, if that is the case and if these people were being consistent, then why is Amehemat not called "Nubian" along with the rest of the 12th Dynasty? [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: [qb] So, I'm done arguing with you. If you want to be like Xyzman and go off in tangent about racist Egyptologists, then may I suggest you take it up with them. [/qb][/QUOTE]So you are saying you are on this forum because you agree with Egyptology and their positions and anybody who doesn't is somehow irrational? Seriously dude. Thats hilarious. To the point of the thread, most of the Queens of the Dynastic Era were African Queens and if someone is saying something other than that then I will call it out. Just provide the evidence of these "Nubian soldiers" that you keep referencing so we can actually get somewhere instead of dealing with your personal mission to tell me what to think. And if you want to open a new thread then fine. But I just want to show that what you are saying is absolute nonsense. Here is an early New Kingdom depiction of the so-called "Nubian style" hair that shows an "intermediate" style of canon between the simplistic styles of the older eras and the elaborate detailed styles of later eras. Note how the lappets or layers of different length braids are shown in a very simplistic manner, with them flowing over the ear and the shoulders in an unnatural way similar to older portraits. This is from the reign of Amenhotep II or Thutmosis III, years before the Amarna period. [IMG]https://live.staticflickr.com/8587/28134795583_2c7be1eb2f_b.jpg[/IMG] https://www.flickr.com/photos/101561334@N08/28134795583/ Another example of this transition towards more elaborate representation of braids from Senenmut, who served under Hatshepsut: [IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f9/Senenmut_Munich_25102016_4.jpg/768px-Senenmut_Munich_25102016_4.jpg[/IMG] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Senenmut_Munich_25102016_4.jpg Note that during this era none of these groups whether so-called Nubians or people of the dynastic kingdom were shown with such elaborate braids because the canon hadn't evolved to show such things. And it only makes sense that this evolution peaked during the Amarna era, as a continuation of changes to the canon that occurred under Amenhotep III. And the source you cited says the following: [QUOTE] efore delving into the particular appearances at Medinet Habu, a brief examination of the history of the lappet wig is prudent. The development of this wig during the New Kingdom is somewhat unclear. A wig with a diagonal edge running from the back of the head down towards the front resulting in a short pointed lappet appears first on the king during the reign of Amenhotep II (K. Mysliwiec, Le portrait royal dans le bas–relief du Nouvel Empire (1976), figs. 101-105). A depiction from the tomb of Kenamun (TT 93) of a cult statue of the pharaoh as a Nubian commander shows him wearing the military costume of the region, including a cut leather apron and the short, valanced wig (C. Aldred, “Hairstyles and History,” BMMA 15.6 (1957), 142. N. de G. Davies, The Tomb of Ken-Amun at Thebes, (New York, 1930), pl. 11). This is also one of the earliest appearances of the shebyu-collar (See P. Brand, “The Shebyu-collar in the New Kingdom, part 1,” JSSEA 33 (2006), 22).[/QUOTE]And none of the references on that page actually show any so-called "Nubians" wearing the hairstyle. So them calling it "Nubian" is simply arbitrary at best. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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