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Kmt The 3 Lands?: Ethnicity vs. Polity
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doug M: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: [qb] :eek: :confused: And exactly which texts have you been reading??! Throughout dynastic history Ta Nehesy was the term used for the land to their south NOT Ta Seti! The latter was only used for the 1st sepat. Ta Seti khast was only recorded from predynastic to proto-dynastic times after it was utterly conquered and vanquished. All Egyptology has translated the word Ta Nehesy to the Roman label of 'Nubia' and its inhabitants-- Nehesu as 'Nubians'. Only the most racist Egyptologist James Breasted has translated Nhs as "negro" which even other Egyptologists scoff at. Again Ta Seti for much of dynastic history past the Archaic Period meant the 1st sepat hence the Prophecy of Neferti speaking of the rise of the 12th dynasty coming from a "Woman of Ta Seti". That meant a woman from the southernmost sepat NOT 'Nubia'. [/qb][/QUOTE]I am talking about original heiroglyphic texts not off hand references from web sites or articles. Again, the context for this statement was that you have to read the original hieroglyphs to get a proper understanding. And apparently that got past you and you insist on meaningless rhetoric. What actual texts from the ancient Nile use "Ta-Nehesy" and in what context? Again, the reason I say this is because the people translating the term are terribly inconsistent in many cases. I can of course find general articles on google but that wasn't the point. [QUOTE] Egyptian Names of Nubia All of the lands south and southeast of Egypt (sometimes also including the northeast) the Egyptians called, Ta-netjer, "God's Land." Within this great region, the Egyptians located the different countries and people of Nubia. From the Old Kingdom onward, in addition to Ta-Seti, the Egyptians applied the name Ta- Nehesy as a general designation for Nubia (n.b., nehesy means, "nubian;" Panehesy, "the Nubian" becomes a common personal name, developing into the Biblical name, Phineas). At the same time, Egyptians gave the name Wawat specifically to Lower Nubia. This name derived from one of several Nubian chiefdoms which were located in this region during the late Old Kingdom. A generic designation of the desert nomads of Nubia was the term Iuntiu or Iuntiu-setiu , "Nubian tribesmen (lit. 'bowmen')." The names which the Egyptians used to refer to the various parts of Nubia and its different peoples usually changed depending upon the era and the particular tribal group in a given area. [/QUOTE] https://www.touregypt.net/historicalessays/nubiae1.htm This article above showing exactly the problem with the usage of the term "Nubia" because there is no evidence that the ancient Nile valley people looked at all the groups to the south as a single unified culture, society, political or ethnic entity. And as such, the distinctions between them get glossed over and distorted. Because technically Punt would also be called "nubia" then but they never say that. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: [qb] That is patently FALSE! Egyptology has only translated Ta-Nehesy as "Nubia" which is a general region. The other names you list are of specific states or polities that are located in the said region! Seriously Doug, I don't know what texts you've been reading or rather translations of those texts but the Mdu Neter has been made clear many times in this forum as to what the Egyptian word for 'Nubia' was for many years now including your time of membership here. [/qb][/QUOTE]I literally just posted two versions of the same Edfu texts where one uses "Nubia" as a reference to Ta-Seti. And there are plenty of works from Egyptology where you can see this. You can see this also on the Oriental Institutes web site. And I posted a thread from 2007 showing the exact same discussion from many older members, including you pointing out the distortion within Egyptology about the term "Nubia". I know you aren't going to sit here and claim that Egyptology hasn't always used "Nubia" as a synonym for black African because it has and still continues to do so to this day. [QUOTE] [b]In addition to maintaining trade contacts with Egypt, A-Group rulers employed symbols that were used by Egyptian pharaohs of that time. Some Nubian seal impressions depict a bow above a rectangle (right), probably the earliest writing of Ta-Seti, “Land of the Bow,” an ancient Egyptian name for Nubia.[/b] The A-Group flourished until it was destroyed by pharaohs of Egypt’s First Dynasty around 3100 BC. Much of northern Nubia was not inhabited for centuries afterwards, at least partly because of Egyptian military action. There is evidence of some occupation during this time, however; a settlement at Buhen near the 2nd cataract, with Egyptian and Nubian pottery, may have been a base for trade or copper working during the Egyptian Old Kingdom (2686–2125 BC).[/QUOTE] https://isac.uchicago.edu/museum-exhibits/nubia/ancient-nubia-group-3800%E2%80%933100-bc Nowhere in that statement above do they mention Ta-Seti as the 1st Nome of the unified dynastic kingdom and possibly the beginning of the dynastic state. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: [qb] A perfect example would be of the usage of 'Nubian' would be from the tomb of Weni where it says this: [i] Iri'n Hm=f mSa ni Dbaw aSaw m Sma'w mrw-qd=f xnti m Abw Mhwt m Mdn.it m Ta-Mhw m gswi prw Mrw-qd=sni m SDr m Xnw inbw Sdr m [b]Nhsiw Irtjt, m Nhsiw Medja, m Nhsiw Iam m Nhsiw Wawat, m Nhsiw Kaaw[/b], m Ta-Tmh [/i] Translation: "[i]His Majesty made an army of many tens of thousands, from all of Upper Egypt, south to Yebu, north to Medenit, from Lower Egypt, to “Two-sides-of-the-House” (the Delta)” from Sedjer to Khen-sediru from the [b]Irtjet-Nubians, the Medja-Nubians, the Yam-Nubians, from the Uauat-Nubians, from the Kaau-Nubians,[/b] from Tjemeh-land.[/i]" All the polities and/or ethnicities listed have the appellative of Nehesiu/Nubian attached. What do they all have in common besides hailing from the same region? Notice "Ta-Seti" is not included because what used to be Ta-Seti xst is now [b]Wawat[/b]!! [/qb][/QUOTE]Where is "Ta Nehesy" in this text because that is what the original discussion was about? I am perfectly aware that "Nehesy" was used in ancient texts, but not aware of "Ta Nehesy" ever being used. That is what I was specifically referring to and apparently unless you can provide the text, you haven't either. I can't believe you didn't understand the distinction, because "Nehesy" and "Ta-Nehesy" are two different things and have different meanings and we have discussed the potential meanings for "nehesy" many times, including how inconsistent they are with references to various individuals named "Nehesy". For example, the king Nehesy listed in the first intermediate period as a ruler in the delta. Earlier Egyptologists referred to him as a Asiatic while others more recently refer to him as from the South and others say he is from Kmt. And I am not sure what the prefix "Nehesi" represents in this particular text? If it was a singular political entity or singular ethnic group why have the specific names appended to it? Indicating that they were not lumped together as a singular entity as implied by "Nubian" in modern usage. To this day, I don't think anybody has come up with a decisive answer to this question. [QUOTE] The classic Middle Egyptian phase of the Egyptian language provides evidence for Egyptian attitudes to the inhabitants of lands immediately south of Egypt: there seem to have been two main words used, Nehesy (nHsy) for inhabitants of the river valley, and Medjay (mDAy) for a group or groups from the deserts east of the Nubian Nile Valley. This indicates the view from Egypt, as mediated through language: it is possible that it represents a simplifying generalisation for a more complex linguistic and ethnic map of Nubia. [/QUOTE] https://www.ucl.ac.uk/museums-static/digitalegypt/nubia/nubians.html And where is the source for this text from Weni's tomb and when was it published? Curious because I have never seen this before and if you look on google it says that the tomb was discovered and then lost in the 1800s and then rediscovered in the late 90s. So was this translation provided in the 1800s or more recently? That is important because it helps show the differences in translations for the same texts and the distortions. Which was my point in terms of trying to get to the bottom of these questions. But again, these terms have been used interchangeably within Egyptology for for "Nubian or black African" for a long time. For example, this is how Breasted translated the exact same text, proving my point of why it is important to look at the source hieroglyphs. [QUOTE] His majesty made war on the Asiatic Sand-dwellers and his majesty made an army of many ten thousands; in the entire South, southward to Elephantine, and northward to Aphroditopolis; in the Northland on both sides entire in the [stronghold], and in the midst of the [strongholds], among the [b]Irthet negroes[/b], the [b]Mazoi negroes[/b], the [b]Yam negroes[/b], among the [b]Wawat negroes[/b], among the [b]Kau negroes[/b], and in the land of Temeh. His majesty sent me at the head of his army while the counts, while the wearers of the royal seal, while the sole companions of the palace, while the nomarchs and commanders of strongholds belonging to the South and Northland; the companions, the caravan-conductors, the superior prophets belonging to the South and the Northland, the overseers of the crown-possessions, were (each) at the head of a troop of the South or the Northland, of the strongholds and cities which they commanded, and of the negroes of these countries. I was the one who made for them the plan while my office was (only) that of superior custodian of the domains of the Pharaoh of [.... .... ....] . Not one thereof [...] with his neighbor; not one thereof plundered [dough] (or) sandals from the wayfarer; not one thereof took bread from any city; not one thereof took any goat from any people. I despatched them from the Northern Isle, the Gate of Ihotep, the bend of Horus, Nibmat. While I was of this rank .... .... .... everything, I [inspected] the number of these troops, (although) never had any servant inspected. [/QUOTE] https://web.archive.org/web/20180810083122/http://reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/texts/weni.htm [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: [qb] [QUOTE]But there is no doubt that the Ta Seti in the Edfu Texts is not referring to anything other than the first Nome.[/QUOTE]Bruh, the second sentence of the text says, "[i]Ra was in the land of Nubia with his warriors, but foes conspired (u'u) against him, [b]and therefore to this day that country bears the name of Conspirators' Land (Ua'ua).[/b][/i]" :eek: Why do you insist that this was the 1st nome as opposed to Wawat? [QUOTE]And often when you hear Egyptologists talk of Ta Seti they act as if this nome doesn't exist as part of the dynastic kingdom. That is my point.[/QUOTE]What Egyptologists are you talking about?? Again the only Ta Seti that was never part of the dynastic kingdom was the one beyond the 1st cataract [QUOTE]And as I said, most times when I have seen Ta Seti used in ancient text, they are talking to of the nome, not of any kind of foreign territory. And this is why I am against the way "Nubia" is used because it totally disregards that distinction. I have yet to see a text from the ancient times using Ta Seti exclusively as a reference to any foreign territory outside the dynastic kingdom. Not saying it doesn't exist, but that I haven't seen it.[/QUOTE]I have answered all of this above! Ta Seti [i]was[/i] the 1st nome of Egypt, however there was another Ta Seti that was foreign up until the end of the Archaic Period when it was vanquished. What is so hard to understand?? [/qb][/QUOTE]DJ are you serious? Stick to the point and stop rambling. I provided two translations of the exact same Edfu texts, both from in or around the late 1800s or early 1900s. One translates Ta-Seti as Ta-Seti, indicating the first nome, the other translates it as "Nubian". So I am not insisting on anything other than what I said, which is using the actual hieroglyphs if [b]YOU[/b] are serious about getting to the bottom of this instead of grandstanding on semantics. It is almost like you are pretending Egyptology has not used these terms interchangeably which is easily provable by going to the various texts written over the last 100 years. You sitting here denying it is odd. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: [qb] [QUOTE][qb]And I have been calling out my disagreement with this concept of Nubia since I have been on this forum, mainly because it is an arbitrary construct that has no consistency in usage and often contradicts the reality on the ground. https://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=005221 [/qb][/QUOTE]No! 'Nubia' is the exact translation of Ta Nehesi which was the land to the south of Egypt. Nothing more, nothing less. Ta Nehesi IS Nubia! [QUOTE][qb]On the same note, I am of the same opinion on the term Nehesy also, as they are very inconsistent on that as well....[/qb] [i] Archaeologists in Egypt have discovered several tombs and chapels dating back around 3,300 years in an ancient cemetery at the site of Saqqara. The biggest tomb belonged to a man named "Panehsy" who was the "overseer of the temple of Amun," Lara Weiss, a curator of the Egyptian and Nubian collection at the Netherlands' National Museum of Antiquities in Leiden and author of the book "The Walking Dead at Saqqara" (De Gruyter 2022), who is one of the excavation leaders, told Live Science in an email. [/i] https://www.livescience.com/archaeology/ancient-egyptians/3300-year-old-ancient-egyptian-tombs-and-chapel-with-amazing-decorations-unearthed-at-saqqara [/QUOTE]The name Panehesy means 'Man of Nehesy' and the source you cite describes him as a priest of Amun dating to the 18th dynasty. You know that there were many Nubians/Nehesy incorporated into the royal court in the 18th Dynasty right after Kush's defeat and annex into the Kmtawy Empire which is no wonder why the name 'Panehesy' dramatically increased in appearance in Egyptian records during the 18th dynasty. Similarly the name also increased in usage during the 25th Dynasty. Seriously Doug, no offense but your reading comprehension seems to be limited to what you think as opposed to what is in the actual text. [/qb][/QUOTE]Nah dude. I think you just are too full of yourself and don't want to listen as opposed to pretending to know everything. Again, I wasn't disagreeing with you really, but you are stuck on getting into a battle with me over god knows what and I am not into that. Its pointless. Save that for someone else. Like I said, if [b]YOU[/b] or anybody else really wants to understand this you would have to look at the original hieroglyphs across various texts and cannot trust the translations as always being consistent. I stand by that as it is easily shown how inconsistent these various translations can be on the concept of so-called "Nubia". Your protestations and objections are irrelevant to that fact. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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