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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Swenet: [qb] ^Did you notice that your paper has the Herto boy with recent humans, while the Herto adult is with so-called 'archaics'? That's exactly the evidence I wanted to see confirmed (see my second post where I said I'm waiting for clarification).[/qb][/QUOTE]Yes! His juvenile morphometric pattern is similar to contemporary Sapiens juveniles. I was trying to find another study that came out right after the Herto discovery saying how because it's a child it is uncertain due to paedomorphic features showing similarity between different species of a genus or even family. [QUOTE][qb]Will have to go over it closely, to make sure I get everything from it. I also want to see if they elaborate on this massive morphological distance between these two Herto fossils and the fact that this means that adult Herto isn't in our lineage, at all. (imagine if Oase I is not ancestral to later Europeans/Eurasians, how far removed Herto must be given how similar he looks to the photographs of Kabwe in the 2003 White et al paper. [In the White et al paper the Herto adult, to me, looks like a cross/hybrid between the photographs of Qafzeh 9 and Kabwe, while Herto boy looks like neither and closer to us living humans]).[/qb][/QUOTE]Yes, I have read that because of Herto's features he was deemed to probably come from a different line or subspecies of Sapiens hence his name [i]Homo[/i] sapiens idaltu as opposed to [i]Homo[/i] sapiens sapiens. However, I personally hesitate to make any conclusions without say conclusive genetic evidence. Recall the [URL=http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009810#000033]Zhoukoudian Upper Cave Series[/URL]. All three skulls are contemporary to each other yet all three look very different from each other as to suggest different population origins yet the late Dr. Christy Turner and others have shown that all three skulls possess sinodont teeth. If there was [i]that[/i] much craniometric variation among early East Asians at that time there is no telling what kind of variation existed in Africa that far back. If according to Turner the UC Zhoukoudian skulls belong to the same population despite their difference in facial features, who's to say that Herto Man and Child don't belong to the same family??! [QUOTE][qb]The way I see it, some groups out of the language groups you mention, are the most distinctive (physically) out of the other members in their language groups. Nilotes are the most distinctive out of Nilo-Saharans, southern African Bantu speakers are the most distinctive out of Bantu speakers in certain ways, and so on. I can't think of a good group among West/Central Africans right now, that is distinctive among non-Bantu Niger-Congo speakers, but I'm pretty sure West Africans have such a standout group as well (standout defined as morphologically unique to some degree, like Nilotes, but not due to Eurasian ancestry, as the case of some Sahelian groups). But the point is, if you look at it like this, you shouldn't get anything resembling that Froment graphic where populations are close. But you might get that if you don't have a representative sample of language groups and leave out the distinctive members of each language group. For instance, based on their genetics it wouldn't surprise me if Luo representatives of Nilo-Saharan speakers would group close to Niger-Congo speakers. [/qb][/QUOTE]I believe linguistically the Kordofanian group of Niger-Congo shows the most affinity to Nilo-Saharan. But as far as more accurate craniometric charts how about these? [b]Rightmire 1975[/b] [IMG]https://landofpunt.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/rightmire1975-fig2.png?w=800&h=600&c=crop[/IMG] [b]Brauer 1980[/b] [IMG]https://landofpunt.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/brauer1980.png[/IMG] [/QB][/QUOTE]
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