There are at least seven or eight ­ maybe eleven to thirteen ­ world regions which independently invented agriculture. None in Europe, by the way. - Ehret.

However, in an effort to deny the dawn of sophisticated modern human behavior in the African continent, in addition to its being the cradle of humanity, some folks have an interest in comparing Mesopotamia, a region, to the earliest known human nation state, Kemet. Some even go over the board, in vainly trying to claim some kind of a Mesopotamian origin for the Nile Valley, in the face of astonishing amount of evidence to the contrary. So now, an opportunity is being presented, for such advocates to make their case; it is time to spend more energy in producing 'results', rather than empty talk. The best place to start, would be to layout what entails ‘civilization’, and build from there!

quote:

---

Ausar wrote:
Here is a reference from the Oxford History of ancient Egypt edited by Ian Shaw:

From Petrie onwards,it was reguarly suggested,despite the evidence
of Pre dyanstic cultures,Egyptian civlization of the 1st dyansty
appeared suddently and must therfore have been instroduced by an
invading foreign ''race''.

Since the 1970's however excavations at
Abutu[Abydos] and nekhen[el-Kab] have clearly ,demonstrated the indigenous Upper
Egyptian roots of early civlization in egypt.
page 65

Oxford History of Ancient egypt
Ian Shaw

---

The fallacy of the Egypt vs. Nubia discourse in recent western literature....

The traditional ancient Egyptian name for Nubia was Ta- Seti , "Land of the Bow" (as in "bow and arrow").

Indeed, the Egyptians gave that same name to their southernmost nome which bordered on Nubia, either because it was adjacent to that country, or else because that portion of southern Upper Egypt was originally part of an earlier kingdom of Nubia with the same name, and which would have existed before the unification of Egypt
http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/GeogHist/histories/Oldcivilization/Egyptology/Nubia/nubiae1.htm

Or more simply:

Ta-Seti was the first nome of Kemet.

These are the terms the ancients actually used.

They would not have used the term Egypt, a Greek corruption of "House of the Spirit Ptah".

They would not have used the word Nubia, a Roman reference to the Nation south of Kemet based on the Km.t word Nub for gold describing a region where gold was mined in Southern Km.t.

The area that is Nubia was therefore a part of Ta-Seti, then Kemet, then Kush, with Kemet conquering Kush and then Kush conquering Kemet.

Another device of Eurocentric anthropology to disguise the African origin of Nile Valley civilisation is to focus on the conflicts between Kemet and Kush.

But this is equivelant to attempting to disprove the common semitic origins of Jew and Arab by virtue of their constant fighting over Palestine;

or attempting to prove a 'racial' distinction between the Germans and English because of their history of savage warfare amongst themselves.

Even today 'Nubia' is an indigenous part of Egypt and its southern neighbor Sudan.

Mesopotamia, now primarily where Iraq is, has little to do with either.

This takes for the form of drawing an imaginery and blatantly racial boundary of African civilisation at "Nubia".

ie - You take Nubia - give 'us Europeans' Egypt.

This is laughable of course at it begs the question, by what logic, other than historical imperialism does Europe; the west; whites; lay 'claim' to any African civilisation?

Of course, Africans need not 'negotiate' with the west[???] for which parts of their own history they may acknolwedge, learn from, or identify with.

This ruse is laughable and should be dismissed.

Consider this plea by Ann Macy Roth:

"Why not use Nubia?," "or any of the other great African civilizations? Why can't they leave Egypt alone?" The answer is that these other civilizations did not build pyramids and temples that impressed the classical writers of Greece and Rome with their power, antiquity, and wisdom.

Well NO Miss Roth, the answer is that Nubia includes the 1st nome of "Egypt".

Nubia actually has the majority of the Pyramids in the Nile Valley, yet with a wave of her magic wand, she has made them disappear.

Roth seeks to confine Nile Valley Africa to Nubia, and then rape Nubia and move 'the goods' to Egypt.

Nice try, but no thanks, ma'am.

One thing people forget is that Pharaonic civilization began in the valley of Upper Egypt i.e. southern Egypt. So if Mesopotamia or peoples from the Levant really brought Pharaonic civilization, why are their earliest centers not in the Delta area in the north? It is simple as that.

quote:

---

this is equivelant to attempting to disprove the common semitic origins of Jew and Arab by virtue of their constant fighting over Palestine;

or attempting to prove a 'racial' distinction between the Germans and English because of their history of savage warfare amongst themselves.

---

Actually Rasol, a better analogy with Europeans would be between Germans and the French! These people had a big fued and their countries border each other the way Egypt and Nubia did.

Why is it scholars of Mesopotamia rarely ever mention them?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
And another thing. When people think about Mesopotamian civilization, they think Sumeria or Akkad or both (Babylonia). Yet hardly anyone has heard of Elam! Elam was located in southwestern Iran and directly east of Sumer. In many ways the Elamites are like the Nubians in that, not only are they a black people but they are also overshadowed by their more popular neighbor--Sumer.

Why is it scholars of Mesopotamia rarely ever mention them?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Also, Rasol brought an interesting point concerning the conflict between Egyptians and "Nubians"

(...)

On the contrary the Egyptians more often than not generalized the peoples of the Levant and Near-East as being "Namu Sho" (Sand people).

---

Hmmm, good post.

I like the distinction between "Egyptians" and "Nubians". It looks to me as the difference between Upper and Lower Nile Valley. Here we may have the difference between people coming from a "tropical" environment to a "dry" one.

But, about the topic, there is no real difference between Nile and Euphrates/Tigris. At least in environmental terms. Both river systems are but the same: an intermediate environment between tropical and temperate lands. Some dry lands to be crossed by people between Africa (proper) and the rest of the world

I won't really considerate the land between the river Nile and the twin rivers Euphrates and Tigris to be something RADICALLY different. They are just but the limit between tropical and temperate climates.

So, there are not real difference between Kemet and Mesopotamia. These two lands were but just the two borders (west and east) of the same human ecosystems. This can explain why they both look to be the "origin" of civilization (not talking about other places of neolitic origin as China, India and the like).

quote:

---

Originally posted by jluis:

I like the distinction between "Egyptians" and "Nubians". It looks to me as the difference between Upper and Lower Nile Valley.

---

...then you would be making stuff up, and ignoring the primary sources pretty much as the ws.t scholars have done.

quote:

---

Here we may have the difference between people coming from a "tropical" environment to a "dry" one.

---

This is also inaccurate really as tropical and dry do not define 'different' climate catogories, and much of Nubia is extremely hot and dry.

quote:

---

I won't really considerate the land between the river Nile and the twin rivers Euphrates and Tigris to be something RADICALLY different.

---

I really don't understand this reply. You seem to have missed the point of the parent thread and subsequent responses entirely.

quote:

---

Actually Rasol, a better analogy with Europeans would be between Germans and the French! These people had a big fued and their countries border each other the way Egypt and Nubia did.

---

Good point.

quote:

---

The Egyptians have never used the term "Nubians" and specified the various peoples that lived the region we call "Nubia" like Wawat, Medjay, Setju, Irem, Kush, Yam, etc.

---

Correct, also some peoples from Lower Nubia or Ta Seti were simply considered rm.t km.t or "Egyptians" from parts of "Nubia" [Ta Seti] that were also a part of "Egypt"

A king will come from the South,
Ameny, the justified, by name,
Son of a woman of [Ta-Seti] Nubia, child of Upper Egypt.*

He will take the white crown,
He will wear the red crown;
He will join the Two Mighty Ones,
He will please the Two Lords with what they wish,
With field-circler in his fist, oar in his grasp.
Rejoice, O people of his time,
The son of man will make his name for all eternity!
The evil-minded, the treason-plotters,
They suppress their speech in fear of him;
Asiatics will fall to his sword
Rebels to his wrath, traitors to his might,
As the serpent on his brow subdues the rebels for him.

One will build the Walls-of-the-Ruler,
To bar Asiatics [Aamu]** from entering Egypt;
They shall beg water as supplicants,
So as to let their cattle drink.
Then Order will return to its seat,
While Chaos is driven away.
Rejoice he who may behold, he who may attend the king! And he who is
wise will libate for me,
When he sees fulfilled what I have spoken!

noteworthy:

* Ta-Seti, Nubia, Upper Egypt are co-extensive

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
[B]
"This is also inaccurate really as tropical and dry do not devine 'different' climate catogories, and much of Nubia is extremely hot and dry"
_____________

There is a real climate distinction between the Upper Nile river (now Ethiopia) and the Lower Nile (now Egypt). Nubia is exactly in the middle. I will not contest where exactly is the border between tropical and dry zones 'cause it have changed, even in historical times. Maybe Upper Nubia, in your terms...

__________________

[QUOTE]I won't really considerate the land between the river Nile and the twin rivers Euphrates and Tigris to be something RADICALLY different.

---

I really don't understand this reply.
________________

Well, sorry. I'd like to say that between both sides of the Nile there is a clear climate boundary. An just north or the Tigris/Euphrates rivers there is another. On the south, you have tropical weather (dry season/wet season, two seasons). On the north of it, you got four seasons (winter, spring, summer & fall).

This is the "difference" I was referring to.

quote:

---

Originally posted by jluis:

Well, sorry. I'd like to say that between both sides of the Nile there is a clear climate boundary. An just north or the Tigris/Euphrates rivers there is another. On the south, you have tropical weather (dry season/wet season, two seasons). On the north of it, you got four seasons (winter, spring, summer & fall).

This is the "difference" I was referring to.

---

quote:

---

Good question. The answer lies, I believe, in the interest in lumping Mesopotamia into one entity, while disintegrating the Nile Valley into Egypt and "Nubia",

---

Precisely Supercar. As was noted an another thread it also allows ws.t scholarship to 'play with' the notion of the origin of civilisation.

Quick question: when does "Egyptian" civilisation begin.

The standard answer is: Narmer unites Egypt and starts Dynasty 1.

When does Mesopotamian civilisation begin?

Answer: Whenever ws.t scholarship wants it to, based on whatever they wish to signify it; signs of city building, writing, agriculture and animal domestication.

Yet none of these things can be said for certain to have 1st began in Mesopotamia.

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
As was noted an another thread it also allows ws.t scholarship to 'play with' the notion of the origin of civilisation.

Quick question: when does "Egyptian" civilisation begin.

The standard answer is: Narmer unites Egypt and starts Dynasty 1.

When does Mesopotamian civilisation begin?

Answer: Whenever ws.t scholarship wants it to, based on whatever they wish to signify it; signs of city building, writing, agriculture and animal domestication.

Yet none of these things can be said for certain to have 1st began in Mesopotamia.

Thus a culture region is compared to a Nation State, and even though Kemet is unrefuted as the worlds oldest Nation state, it is implicitly made co-equal or even secondary to then 'non-existent' Nations of Mesopotamia.

---

And why is that, if one is to consider the Nation State to be the culmination of advanced development of the basic necessities/qualities (from farming to literature and technology) of complex culture? The reason is that, if one is to concede to the idea of the Nation State being indicative of full-fledged notion of 'civilization', then one would have to concede the cradle being in Africa.

[/B][/QUOTE]

The land was not, it was the climate!

The Valley of the Nile is the link between the tropical (Equatorial) climate and the most temperate climate that starts in Palestina.

And further north, in the mountains of Zagros, starts the temperate weather...

Most probably many civlizations sprang up independent of each other. If Mesopotamia happens to be older than Kmt that still does not necessarily mean that Mesopotamians laid the foundations for Kemetian civlization.

The Mesopotamian influence in Egypt is only confined to some artistic motifs and some temple architecture. However, we are seeing earlier evidence of temple architecture from such archaeological sites as Nabta Playa.

Influence does not necessarily mean invasion. Please remeber this.

We don't know much about the Delta either during the pre-dyanstic era. We see a development of urbanized centers such as Buto that do appear somewhat linked with Sumerian traders. The Delta probably did have some groups from Western Asian intermingling with indigenous Egyptians in the Delta.

On the Narmer palette you notice the people being tied up look kind of Khoisanoid. Then you have bulls trampling what appears to be people that look different from the Egyptians. Many are drawn with straight hair as opposed to the people being tied up who have peper-corn type hair like Khoisanoids.

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
[
Quick question: when does "Egyptian" civilisation begin.

B]

---

My question was not when does Egypt began but where does it began

quote:

---

The land was not, it was the climate!
The Valley of the Nile is the link between the tropical (Equatorial) climate and the most temperate climate that starts in Palestina.

---

You are confusing climate geography and topography among other things, and your discriptions of Nubia and Egyptian climate are simply bizarre.

Namer Palette.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

From what I understand the oldest town in existence in the world is Catal Hyuk. The oldest center of agritculturle is around Jarmo in Iraq and Jerico in Palestine. This is why the whole contreversey about the Natufians...

---

The body of available evidence should be taken into consideration:

Pleistocene connections between Africa and SouthWest Asia: an archaeological perspective.
By Dr. Ofer Bar-Yosef, 1987;
The African Archaeological Review;
Chapter 5, pg 29-38.

"The Mushabians moved into the Sinai from the Nile Delta, bring North African lithic chipping techniques."

"Thus the population overflow from Northeast Africa played a definite role in the establishment of the Natufian adaptation, which in turn led to the emergence of agriculture as a new subsistence system."

--------

"Several early occupation and settlements were identified in this region. For example the remains of the early settlement of fishermen at Wadi El Kubbaniya, to the north of Aswan, dated to about 18 000 BC.[22] Numerous grinding stone and sickle plates were found in Tushki about 13 000 BC.[23] The inhabitants of the region made use of a geometric microlithic technique, which is considered among the oldest in the world."

Source: http://www.arkamani.org/vol_5/archaeology_5/missinglinks.htm

--------

"One of the archaeological possibilities is a group called the Mushabaeans. This group moves in on another group that's Middle Eastern. Out of this, you get the Natufian people. Now, we can see in the archaeology that people were using wild grains the Middle East very early, back into the late glacial age, about 18,000 years ago. But they were just using these seeds as they were. At the same time, in this northeastern corner of Africa, another people ­ the Mushabaeans? ­ are using grindstones along the Nile, grinding the tubers of sedges. Somewhere along the way, they began to grind grain as well. Now, it's in the Mushabian period that grindstones come into the Middle East." - Ehret.

Where is/are the evidence to the contrary?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Super car:
Good question. The answer lies, I believe, in the interest in lumping Mesopotamia into one entity...

---

You misunderstand. Pertaining to Mesopotamia, most have heard about Sumer and others Akkad and everyone has heard about Babylonia, which is union of the two. Yet very few people have heard of Elam which is in today's southwestern Iran. Elam is just east of Sumer and was another historically important site of civilization, yet it is not popular at all.

Most times that Elam is mentioned is in Iranian history but usually in brief passing in contrast to Persia, even though the Elamites were the forebearers of Persian civilization.

Why is this? Is it because the Elamites were black? Even though the Elamites were not Africans, they were black asiatics and many of their descendants can be seen today in southern Iran and around Baluchistan.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
[B] You misunderstand. Pertaining to Mesopotamia, most have heard about Sumer and others Akkad and everyone has heard about Babylonia, which is union of the two. Yet very few people have heard of Elam which is in today's southwestern Iran. Elam is just east of Sumer and was another historically important site of civilization, yet it is not popular at all.

Most times that Elam is mentioned is in Iranian history but usually in brief passing in contrast to Persia, even though the Elamites were the forebearers of Persian civilization.

Why is this? Is it because the Elamites were black? Even though the Elamites were not Africans, they were black asiatics and many of their descendants can be seen today in southern Iran and around Baluchistan.

---

I think you misunderstood my response to your comment! I was trying to point out that, the reason people don't take notice of such underhandedness in carefully dissecting the various elements in the so-called Mesopotamia regions or within their vicinity, is because many scholars are busy trying to study the region as an entity. The Sumerians too, from the various pictures that depict them, appear to be dark in skin tone, and so, where does that leave us?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
My point is that not enough is heard about Elam and why not?

---

Why do you think that is, Djehuti?

quote:

---

ausar:
From what I understand the oldest town...

---

Speaking of towns, indicative of communities...

The degree or pattern of settlement may not always be apparent from visible architecture alone, particularly if architecture in some places, at some point in time, were built from material that weren't meant to withstand the test of time:

The reason why there is relatively little settlement evidence from Upper Egypt is probably due in part to earlier excavators' priorities. Located on the low desert, Predynastic cemeteries with well preserved burials, some of which contained many grave goods in sometimes exotic materials, were simply of greater interest to excavate than settlements which had been disturbed by digging for sebbakh (organic remains used for fertlizer) or destroyed by expanding cultivation on the floodplain. Unless permanent architecture was detected, such as mud-brick walls excavated by Petrie at Nagada's South Town, more ephemeral Predynastic settlements, which left mainly dense scatters of sherds, such as Petrie describes at Abadiyeh, were interpreted as having been destroyed (Petrie 1901a: 32). In any case, archaeologists did not have the excavation techniques to understand such site and their formation processes.

Only more recently has interest in Upper Egypt shifted to the detailed excavation of Predynastic settlements. But such settlements, located on spurs above the floodplain, are deflated, with little or no evidence of permanent architecture. Missing, or perhaps deposited under alluvium, are large (fortified?) sites on higher ground of the floodplain, such as Kemp (1989: 33) posits; an exception is Nekhen, probably founded on a Nile levee, as shown by coring and sondage in 1984 (Hoffman, Hamroush, and Allen 1986: 181).

Because of alluviation, continuous cultivation, geological conditions in Upper Egypt, and the present dense occupation along the river we may never know much about settlement patterns except from sites preserved above the floodplain.

In northern Egypt, where Predynastic burials of the Maadi culture are relatively unspectacular, with only a few pots, or no burial goods at all, earlier excavations focused equally on settlements. But settlements in the north focused may also have been better preserved than in the south. Evidence at Maadi of rectangular buildings and subterranean structures suggests good preservation of architecture constructed mainly of wattle and matting (Rizkana and Seeher 1989: 75). Conditions for preservation of stratified remains in the Delta and its margins may be the best in Egypt, if reports of recent excavations there are correct (Chlodnicki, Fattovich, and Salvatori 1991; Eiwanger 1988; van den Brink 1988; von der Way 1987, 1988, 1989)….

Since cemeteries in Egypt, both Predynastic and Dynastic, are located in the low desert above the floodplain, unlike the location of many early settlements, the cemetery evidence has been much better preserved, and therefore was of much more interest to excavators. Hence, much of Egyptian archaeology has been concerned with the clearance, recording, and conservation of tombs and mortuary monuments, and their artifacts, as well as stone temples located beyond the floodplain…

Nine more cemetery areas, dating from Nagada I through Nagada III, have also been located elsewhere in the Hierakonpolis region, and Adams and Hoffman (1987: 196, 198) estimate there were several thousand Predynastic graves in the region. One cemetery area (Locality 6), located 2.5km up the Great Wadi, contained more than 2000 Nagada I-II burials, and large Nagada "Protodynastic" tombs, up to 22.75 sq m. in floor area (Adams and Hoffman 1987: 196, 202).

Evidence of postholes demonstrates that superstructures once covered some of the large tombs in Locality 6, and these tombs were surrounded by fences (Hoffman 1983: 49). Possibly a kind of perishable structure was built over some of the tombs, similar to the house structures Hoffman excavated. If so, then this may be the earliest association of large elite tombs with a superstructure that symbolized a house/shrine for the deceased... - Courtesy of Professor Kathryn Bard; Journal of Field Archaeology, 1994.

Sources:Notes are the courtesy of Archeology.org, and photos are the courtesy of Hierakonpolis Expedition

Hierakonpolis in Upper Egypt--ancient Nekhen and city of the Hawk--is a vast archaeological site. Stretching for 3 kilometers (1.9 miles) along the desert fringe of the cultivated Nile floodplain and extending for another 2 kilometers (1.25 miles) back into the low desert up the Wadi Abu Suffian, it contains a wealth of remains dating to the Egyptian Predynastic period (ca. 4000-3100 B.C.), for which it is deservedly famous.

These include Egypt's oldest preserved house--that of the potter who accidentally burnt his house down with his own kiln; Egypt's earliest industrial-strength breweries, with huge vats capable of brewing over 300 gallons a day; and Egypt's first temple (see Narmer's Temple). Recent fieldwork has also revealed, among other things, Egypt's first mummies, its oldest funerary masks for use by the ruling elite, and the burials of exotic animals, including two adolescent elephants!

The oldest preserved house in Egypt, the burnt remains of the potter's house at HK29[b]

[b]Industrial-strength brewing in the Predynastic period (ca. 3500 B.C.)

These discoveries are taking the history of Hierakonpolis and the development of Egyptian civilization farther back in time than we ever initially imagined [yeah right!], but the site has a number of important Dynastic features. These have unjustly been overshadowed, yet they are in many ways unique and their study is contributing significantly to the understanding of many of the more shadowy aspects and periods of ancient Egyptian history.

There is for example the ceremonial enclosure of Khasekhemwy--Hierakonpolis' only standing monument (see www.hierakonpolis.org). Built entirely of sun-dried mud brick, with walls 5 meters (16.4 feet) thick and still preserved in places to its original imposing height of 9 meters (29.5 feet), it is the oldest freestanding mud-brick structure in the world. For the third time, it has been listed with the World Monument Fund as one of the world's 100 most endangered monuments (see www.wmf.org). Decorated on its exterior with a pattern of recessed paneling or niches and originally plastered white, it must have been a striking sight in its time. Almost 5,000 years later, it stands as a testament to the abilities of its builder, King Khasekhemwy, the last ruler of the Second Dynasty (ca. 2686 B.C.), but the reasons for which it was built remain a mystery.

Carved into a ridge of sandstone due west of the enclosure are the decorated stone-cut tombs of the local dignitaries of the late Old Kingdom to Second Intermediate period. Already of historical significance, new discoveries across the river at El Kab are revealing just how important these rare tombs really are...

The oldest freestanding mud brick structure in the world, still preserved in places to its original nine-meter height

[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 31 May 2005).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by kenndo:
I listen to this talk show from time to time called wnyc am in newyork city,it is amazing with new info coming out about africa past,egypt and nubia and others certain talk show host will still bring on guest,more so iraq scholars had keep telling the lie that civilization started in sumer.for one guest i sent updated info saying that egypt and sumer might have started the same time or egypt earlier and nubia earlier than both,but like certain folks they do not like to hear any good news or new finds about africa and they keep finding guest to say the same lies and not correct even if the host has beeb give the info and many of these hosts are white liberals.
listen to this show to understand what i mean.click below and make sure your speakers are on and listen to the whole show if you can.the bbc many time and other misinformed talk shows and news progams say the same crap many times to.any click below.

---

BBC article on the find of Gunter Dreyer, director of the German Archaeological Institute in Egypt:

"The find challenges the widely-held belief that the first people to write were the Sumerians of Mesopotamia (modern-day Iraq) sometime before 3000 BC...

The newly discovered Egyptian writings also show that the society then was far more developed than previously thought, Dreyer said...

Although the Egyptian writings are made up of symbols, they can be called true writing because each symbol stands for a consonant and makes up syllables."

New York times take on the Dreyer’s find:

“The other earliest primitive writing, the cuneiform developed by Sumerians in the Tigris and Euphrates Valley of present-day Iraq, remained entirely pictographic until about 1400 B.C. The Sumerians are generally credited with the first invention of writing, around 3200 B.C., but some recent findings at Abydos in Egypt suggest a possibly earlier origin there.”

quote:

---

Ausar posted:
Most surprising, evidence that early pharaohs ruled in A-Group Nubia was discovered by the Oriental Institute at Qustul, almost at the modern Sudanese border. A cemetery of large tombs contained evidence of wealth and representations of the rulers and their victories. Other representations and monuments could then be identified, and in the process, a lost kingdom, called Ta-Seti or Land of the Bow, was discovered. In fact, the cemetery at Qustul leads directly to the first great royal monuments of Egypt in a progression. Qustul in Nubia could well have been the seat of Egypt's founding dynasty.

Figure 1: The decoration of the Qustul Incense Burner, as restored. A sacrificial procession contains the earliest definite image of a pharaoh with his crown and falcon-label. Oriental Institute Nubian Expedition. http://www-oi.uchicago.edu/OI/PROJ/NUB/NUBX/NUBX_brochure.html

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by kenndo:
I listen to this talk show from time to time called wnyc am in newyork city,it is amazing with new info coming out about africa past,egypt and nubia and others certain talk show host will still bring on guest,more so iraq scholars to keep telling the lie that civilization started in sumer.for one guest i sent updated info saying that egypt and sumer might have started the same time or egypt earlier and nubia earlier than both,but like certain folks they do not like to hear any good news or new finds about africa and they keep finding guest to say the same lies and they do not even correct the guest even if the host has been give the info and many of these hosts are white liberals.
listen to this show to understand what i mean.click below and make sure your speakers are on and listen to the whole show if you can.the bbc many time and other misinformed talk shows and news progams say the same crap many times to.any click below.
http://wnyc.org/shows/lopate/episodes/05312005
it is the last show inside that speaks of the lies.but you guys could listen to the first or all of it too.
click below http://www.wnyc.org/shows/lopate/episodes/05312005
[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 31 May 2005).]

[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 01 June 2005).]

---

Nubians in Hierakonpolis http://www.archaeology.org/interactive/hierakonpolis/nubians.html

..Carved into a ridge of sandstone due west of the enclosure are the decorated stone-cut tombs of the local dignitaries of the late Old Kingdom to Second Intermediate period. Already of historical significance, new discoveries across the river at El Kab are revealing just how important these rare tombs really are--but more on that later....

In addition to these Egyptian monuments, there are also cemeteries that display distinctly non-Egyptian attributes. Surface surveys undertaken across the site by Michael Hoffman in 1978 and Fred Harlan in 1983 revealed the presence of three discrete cemeteries with Nubian cultural traits apparently dating to the Middle Kingdom and Second Intermediate period (ca. 1800-1500 B.C.). These had never been investigated, so in January-March 2001 we decided to take a walk on the historic side and conduct test excavations at each of these localities. Initially we thought all three belonged to the mysterious Pan Grave culture, which was first identified in 1910 by Flinders Petrie, who is also famous as the father of Egyptian prehistory. At the site of Hu near Abydos, while undertaking important Predynastic excavations, he also found two cemeteries of these strange people, previously mistaken for Predynastic as they also used blacktopped pottery. He coined the name Pan Grave because of the shallow, round burials, which he thought looked like frying pans--as indeed they sometimes do!

Subsequently, Pan Grave cemeteries were found at a number of sites in Egypt, and their distinctive pottery has a wide distribution throughout Egypt, Sudan, and into Ethiopia; yet these people remain a mystery. It is not quite clear who they were, although it does seem that they are a semi-nomadic Nubian people, who can be equated with the people the ancient Egyptians called the Medjay--fierce Nubian bowmen who served as mercenary soldiers in the war of liberation against the Hyksos in the Second Intermediate period. The name Medjay is later in the New Kingdom given to the desert police, although it does not appear to have an ethnic connotation at that time.

Test excavations at two of the cemeteries (HK47 and HK21a), situated on opposite borders of the site as guardians of the desert access routes, revealed unmistakable evidence of the Pan Grave culture, including their distinctive frying pan-shaped graves (but also some much deeper), characteristic jewelry, and the tools of their trade: bows, bowstrings, and arrows, remarkably with the feathers still intact!

Originally thought to be yet another Pan Grave cemetery, HK27, in the center of the site, proved upon excavation to belong to the Nubian C-Group culture. This cemetery is located about 100 meters (328 feet) northwest of the Enclosure of Khasekhemwy. Considering that the Nubian C-Group was previously known only from the area of the First Cataract at Aswan (approximately 110km/60 miles south of Hierakonpolis) and southward from there, this was a big surprise! Together, the three cemeteries attest a formidable Nubian presence at Hierakonpolis in the Middle Kingdom and Second Intermediate Period, which given the area's prominence in the latter period presented us with intriguing questions about the site, its relations with the south lands, and the political and economic situation prior to the New Kingdom.

The cultures of Lower Nubia (the area between the First and Second cataract of the Nile, i.e., from Aswan to Wadi Halfa) were first named in 1907 during the initial year of what is now called the First Nubian Survey, the world's first organized salvage campaign, which was made necessary by the building of the First (Low) Aswan dam. It's director, the American Egyptologist George Andrew Reisner named the new non-Egyptian cultures that he encountered with letters, a scheme that is still in use today:

• A-Group = Egyptian Predynastic (Naqada I-III) to about Dynasty 3, when Egyptian interests in the natural and trade resources of the area appears to have lead to a general depopulation of the region.
  
• B-Group = A controversial period that originally was believed to be an impoverished stage during the Old Kingdom, but may actually be the very first stages of the A Group, or a mixture of both.
  
• C-Group = Late Old Kingdom to early New Kingdom. (This was followed by a period of Egyptian, Kushite, Ptolemaic, and Roman domination.)
  
• X-Group = Byzantine period
  

The second Nubian campaign of 1959-1969, which preceded the activation of the Aswan High Dam and the creation of Lake Nasser, put meat on the bones, but did not substantially change the understanding of the inhabitants and history of Lower Nubia. A student of his times, Reisner believed that all cultural change was the result of incursions by new people bringing with them new ideas. As a result, the C-Group has long been considered a mysterious Nubian culture of uncertain origins. It seems likely however, that it represents the re-emergence of the indigenous (A-Group) people after they had adapted to and negotiated various influences from the surrounding areas, the most notable being Egypt on one side, with their string of 17 formidable fortresses placed along the length of Lower Nubia for the purpose of controlling this native population, while on the other side was the equally powerful and ambitious Kingdom of Kush centered at Kerma near the Third Cataract. Living in the buffer zone between these two central powers must not have been an easy, but the C-Group people tenaciously clung to their distinct cultural identity for nearly 800 years, well into the Egyptian 18th Dynasty, when they disappear or become so Egyptianized that their burials are no long distinguishable. This Egyptianization is a process that can be traced throughout their history, and their burials have actually been dated by the degree to which they reflect Egyptian traits. They appear in Egyptian documents as soldiers in the First Intermediate period and Middle Kingdom, and ones well paid enough to afford Egyptian stela for their graves, but actual archaeological evidence for their distinct culture has only been found in Egypt with certainty at Aswan and Kubbaniya, a site only 20 km/12.4 miles to the north.

It has thus been assumed that although other Nubian peoples like the Pan Grave had apparently fairly free access or at least invitations to Egypt, the C-Group Nubians did not. Some have suggested they were boycotting to protest Egyptian imperialism, but our work at Hierakonpolis has clearly shown this not to be the case.

The C-Group cemetery at Hierakonpolis, the northernmost occurrence of this culture in Egypt, is also one of the last remaining cemeteries of its type. The others are now beneath the waters of Lake Nasser. Our discovery is not only a remarkable surprise, but a precious resource that may hold the key to many still unanswered--and long considered unanswerable--questions. We were understandably anxious to return!

The cemetery at HK27c is located on a low but prominent rise behind the Enclosure of Khasekhemwy and near the hills housing the decorated rock cut tombs. Unlike the Pan Graves on the outskirts of the site, this cemetery is in a place of some prestige.

In our first season (2001), we excavated seven graves in the short time available. Our test square (10x10m) turned out to be on the northeastern edge of the cemetery. Most of the graves were the typical Nubian rectangular shape with one rounded end, approximately 1.5 meters (4.9 feet) long and 50 centimeters (1.6 feet) deep. The bodies were buried in the traditional contracted position on their right sides with their heads to the north (or east by river orientation). At this time, Egyptians were buried in an extended position either on their backs or sides.

Among the burials of this traditional type, we also discovered two long rectangular graves with wooden coffins. Cuttings were made in the grave floors to accommodate the external wooden cross planks of the coffins and fragments of degraded wood. We found some still covered with white plaster in these furrows. Both were completely plundered, so we have no evidence to determine whether this Egyptian style of burial also included a change in the position of the body in the coffin (in the traditional contracted position or the extended Egyptian position).

Despite this Egyptian influence, the amount of stone strewn throughout the area suggests that a traditional Nubian tumulus, a ring of dry laid stone masonry often rubble or sand filled, covered most of the graves. In contrast to Egyptian customs, these superstructures were the focus for offerings to the deceased, generally pottery, placed on the ground at the head end of the graves or nestled in the rocks of the tumulus. Several of these offering places were found remarkably intact, with the pots still rim down just as they had been deposited covering the libation.

At least one distinctive hand-made Nubian pot was found in almost every offering place. The typical Nubian black-topped bowls were, the most common were, but we also recovered a fragment of blackware incised with white-paste triangles and parts of a small "milk-jar" with an incised cow and calf (another diagnostic pottery type in Nubia). Egyptian pottery was also included in these deposits above ground as well as within the grave. Among them was a wheel-made Egyptian bowl painted black and red to imitate a C-Group black-topped vessel. Evidently the presence of Nubian pottery, perhaps especially black-topped bowls, was of great importance to C-Group funerary ritual--if a real one could not be procured, an imitation would have to do.

Also of Egyptian manufacture is the beautiful glazed steatite scarab inscribed with a knot design typical of the late Middle Kingdom (mid to late Dynasty 13) unearthed on the very first day of the 2001 excavations. We found this scarab in conjunction with ostrich eggshell and faience beads still on their original string providing us with evidence for the original stringing pattern of a bracelet belonging to a teenager (13-15 years of age).

The cemetery's size and the orderly east-west arrangement of the graves suggested to us that there might be over 100 graves here, indicating a sizeable population of Nubians at Hierakonpolis. Even after severe plundering, the objects we found show that these people had access to a certain level of wealth. They were able to afford wooden coffins, scarabs, and so forth, yet they retained their Nubian burial practices and ceramic technology. It seems unlikely that they were slaves or domestic servants, but who were they? And what are they doing at Hierakonpolis? These are some of the tantalizing questions that in November 2003, with the assistance of a grant from the Michela Schiff-Giorgini Foundation, we returned to the cemetery to try to answer.

A highlight of the 2001 season was recovering an intact bracelet.

A shallow frying pan shaped grave in which the bracelet was found

The distinctive Pan Grave pottery found at Hierakonpolis

A painted ox skull with a portrait of a Pan Grave chief from Mostagedda, Middle Egypt. Second Intermediate Period. (Now in the British Museum.)

Feathers at the end of the Pan Grave arrows were remarkably found still in place!

A traditional Nubian burial at HK27c with the owner in a contracted position within a slightly oval grave