I have watched many Ancient Egypt programmes and I have noticed that NONE of them focuses on the direct connection that AE has with other African civilization and cultures from its in inception.
Why don't they ever talk about:
- the Zar rituals
- ancestoral worship/reverence
- divine kingship and concept of the rainmaker king
- the significant role of women
- Totemism & their taboos
- the hair styles and types,
- the circumcision rites as coming of age
- the concept of the shadow as an extension of the body
- the language
- the dress style
- the culture as a whole
What can the truth tellers do?
The Role of the Media!
- African-Americans are at the financial point where they can sponsor programmes and stations to help in the media's appropriate representation of Africans. Oprah Winphrey, Bill Cosby and other always produce and sponsor programmings.
- These programmes about Egypt and the rest of Africa can focus on ALL aspects aspects of AE culture and history including the many aspects that the eurocentric media always omitt or downplay because of the obvious direct connection with the rest of Africa. AE would be compared and contrasted to the other African culturea and civilizations. Ancient Egyptians can be represented the way they represented themselves and not the ridiculous pale skin people whom look silly with braids and wigs.
- Great attention will be placed on accuracy and deatails the eurocentric will not be able to muddle- up and add confusing contradictions to deny who they were.
- I think this is what is missing and needed. These programmes will bring attention and PUBLIC debate where eurocentric egyptology will be exposed not just to academic people but to the general public. I think the only reason why eurocentric egyptology still lingers on is due to lying by omission, hiding well know facts about who the AE were, who they say they were, and the anthropological facts about them.
Once this debate goes public eurocentrism knows that they have not grounds to stand on and this is why media does not tell the whole story, facts and details about who the ancient Etyptians were!
What do you guys think? Can a African Heritage Channel provide the outlet for such programmes?
Any comments?
[This message has been edited by Keins (edited 22 October 2005).]
quote:
Keins:
- These programmes about Egypt and the rest of Africa can focus on ALL aspects aspects of AE culture and history including the many aspects that the eurocentric media always omitt or downplay because of the obvious direct connection with the rest of Africa.
You reiterate a good point about the idea of placing stronger focus on Kemetian culture, as much as that given to its primary biological base. Distorters, as I said earlier, may make fantastic and overly simplistic claims about Ancient Egyptian being "Near Eastern" and leave it to just that. However, when pressed to explain reasoning for such a wild claim, one gets absolute silence on the issue. This of course, is not surprising, given that these distorters in the first place, don't know much in the way of the culture they speak of, which apparently comes accross quite clearly to the informed.
As far as a "African Heritage Channel" is concerned, is this a channel that is already in place, or is it one in the works? I personally, think a variety of channels, alongside such a channel would be necessary...as you are already aware, simply because there are folks who dismiss anything that intends to focus on the largely ignored African issues [in "western" Media] as being "Afrocentric", no matter how well intentioned the case may be. More importantly, school texts should keep up pace with multi-disciplinary science. I am not sure that this has been accomplished yet!
There has been no evidence at all to support this diffusionist theory! These similarities in culture should not be attributed to Egypt but rather as a common African origin. There are some Afrocentrics that try to connect their ancestral West African culture to Egypt when there is no direct connection other than that BOTH cultures are African.
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:There are some Afrocentrics that try to connect their ancestral West African culture to Egypt when there is no direct connection other than that BOTH cultures are African.
Thought Writes:
When you say **THEIR** West African culture what do you mean?
quote:
Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:When you say **THEIR** West African culture what do you mean?
I mean some people are saying that West Africans are the descendants of ancient Egyptians. While it's possible I find it improbable. West African and Egyptian culture are related simply because both are African.
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
I mean some people are saying that West Africans are the descendants of ancient Egyptians. While it's possible I find it improbable. West African and Egyptian culture are related simply because both are African.
Thought Writes:
1) Genetically you can probably find SOME Eskimo's who are descendents of AE's. Likewise, there are probably SOME modern West Africans that descend from AE's.
2) There is clear evidence of cultural interchange between AE's and the Garamantes of the Sahara. Likewise, we KNOW that the Garamantes had cultural interactions with the Sahelian region of Nigeria. This is an area that requires more research.
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Another mistake that people like Mansa Musa make, is that they attribute the similarities between Egypt and other African cultures as being derived from Egypt.There has been no evidence at all to support this diffusionist theory! These similarities in culture should not be attributed to Egypt but rather as a common African origin. There are some Afrocentrics that try to connect their ancestral West African culture to Egypt when there is no direct connection other than that BOTH cultures are African.
Originally posted by relaxx:
Agreed 100%. AE is just part of the African civilizations. We shouldn't idealize AE as Westerners do with respect to Ancient Greece. AE was probably more advanced than other African civilizations but is just one of many Africa civilizations. As I said in other posts, there are many Africans who probably wouldn’t care about Egyptians thousand years ago because of their farming activities. In many parts of Africa, people despise farming activities. Westerners who come from cultural backgrounds where farming is important are more impressed by AE because they can relate, however many Africans like cattle herders including Somali despise farming.
Relaxx
[This message has been edited by relaxx (edited 22 October 2005).]
[This message has been edited by relaxx (edited 22 October 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Another mistake that people like Mansa Musa make, is that they attribute the similarities between Egypt and other African cultures as being derived from Egypt.There has been no evidence at all to support this diffusionist theory! These similarities in culture should not be attributed to Egypt but rather as a common African origin. There are some Afrocentrics that try to connect their ancestral West African culture to Egypt when there is no direct connection other than that BOTH cultures are African.
I don't appreciate my name being generalized to an opinion I never upheld. All I said was that there were migrations into West Africa from East African people some of these migrations were from Ancient Egyptians fleeing persecution.
This book though I'm sure the author made some flaws (such as promoting the Hamitic Myth) as other people have noted goes into greater detail on Ancient Egyptian migrations into the rest of Africa.
Exiled Egyptians: The Heart of Africa
That does not mean that every cultural similarity Africans have to Ancient Egypt equals that similarity being derived from Egypt, I never implied that. Cultural similarities do however derive from a common source so cultural traits like cattle herding, which predates Ancient Egyptian civilization and was present in both Egypt and other parts of Africa would mean a historical link between those different people. It doesn't mean other Africans got cattle herding from Egyptians there is a very big difference.
So when Horemheb spouts the cliche line "You as an African-American likely being of West African descent have no connection to Ancient Egypt"
My rebuttle consists of 3 points:
1. Egyptians and other Africans share a culture origin.
2. Some Ancient Egyptians did settle in other parts of Africa including West Africa
3. Speaking from a genealogical standpoint a single human has thousands and thousands of ancestors in fact all human beings are related to one another. A full ancestral geneaology means a direct link to many, many people.
On the 3rd point let me elaborate. You are directly descended from your parents. Each one represents 1/2 your genetic makeup. Both of them have parents and all four of those grandparents are your direct ancestors making up 1/4 of your genes each. Each of your Grand parents makes up 1/8 of your genes and so on and so fourth 1/16th, 1/32, 1/64th etc. etc.
If we are to say that one generation equals about 40 years then for an African-American to trace their lineage to their first African ancestor in America assuming that ancestor came early by about 1700, that ancestor would be only 1/256 of your ancestry with 510 ancestors in between!
That many ancestors out of a mere 8 generations (when a gen equals 40). From 1700 to about 2500 B.C. is 4,200 years with many many more generations and ancestors in between meaning a single link to one ancestor in Ancient Egypt is not only plausible its actually quite likely, especially if your ancestor lived on the continent of Africa. There are simply too many ancestors with too many different ties to possible locations to say that a person has no direct lineage to a civilization that lasted thousands of years ago. That goes both ways, a White American could be directly descended from a Black Ancient Egyptian and vice versa wiht all the mixing that happened during slavery a Black American could be decended firectly from any number of White Europeans and their civilizations even directly to famous people in history.
That being said I do not and never claimed a direct ancestral connection to Ancient Egypt only a cultural heritage, not derived from Egypt necessarily but an overall African heritage of which Ancient Egypt has common roots and is therefore a part of. And as I said before by Horemheb and other like minded White American's logic they have no more connection to Greece than I and other African-Americans descended from slaves have with Egypt. Egyptian/African-Americans like Walk and Ausar have a much closer ancestral connection to Egypt just as Greek-Americans do to Greece.
Horemheb's argument is a double standard and my only point was that if he is going to go that route it needs to be put into proper persepctive.
I agree Djehuti, that there are some Afrocentrics (of which I am not one) who try to claim West African culture heritage is derived from Egypt, this is a mistake because it discredits West African ingenuity by attributing it to someone else. My contention has always been the same, African-American culture and Ancient Egyptian culture have a common African origin, that is the connection.
[This message has been edited by Mansa Musa (edited 22 October 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by relaxx:
As I said in other posts, there are many Africans who probably wouldn’t care about Egyptians thousand years ago because of their farming activities.
I know that there are other reasons that many Africans don't put too much emphasis on ancient Egyptians, but the reason you provided, needs independent corroborations. The question is; what is the nature and strength of these corroborations, so as to support your claim?
quote:
relaxx:
In many parts of Africa, people despise farming activities. Westerners who come from cultural backgrounds where farming is important are more impressed by AE because they can relate, however many Africans like cattle herders including Somali despise farming.
You know Relaxx, I asked you a question pertaining to this topic in a thread, which you dedicated to it, but never received a response. Sure they were conflicts between some cattle herders and farming communities, but what evidence is there to suggest that the "unspecified" Africans despise farming activities? Did they not utilize farming at any point in time, as part of their mixed economies? The same goes for Africans like the Somalis.
[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 23 October 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by lamin:
Some anthropologists see a connection between some West African cultures and those of the Nile Valley--Egypt/Nubia. Glynn Daniels, for example, remarked on the common practice of Divine Kingship and Ram worship. Other cultural accoutrements such as curved headrests were also noted.
I urge some interested parties take a peek at the Nile Valley forum, since there are good posts there, that deal with these possible connections. A number of these are from French-speaking scholars and experts [particularly African Egyptologists], some of whom, some of us might not be too familiar with, due to language barrier. Of course, that is not to promote or imply that the Nile Valley folks were responsible for the cultures in question. As said before, common origins, as opposed to demic diffusion, can explain similarities in various cases.
http://phpbb-host.com/phpbb/index.php?mforum=thenile
quote:
What do you guys think? Can a African Heritage Channel provide the outlet for such programmes?
No, not that kind of channel that only black people would see. I think that broadcasting these programs a more mainstream channel, like Nation Geographic or Discovery, would inform a greater number of people.
I think we should compose a website to compile all the evidence for an African Egypt, and then send this information out to the public.
quote:
No, not that kind of channel that only black people would see. I think that broadcasting these programs a more mainstream channel, like Nation Geographic or Discovery, would inform a greater number of people.I think we should compose a website to compile all the evidence for an African Egypt, and then send this information out to the public.
Actually, this Africa channel is going to be on mainstream satellite and cable companies I believe. The channel is supposed to shatter streotypes that Americans have about African countries.
You know anybody can write a rough draft and get it shown on Discovery or TLC.
I agree with the website. Very good idea. Personally, I don't think we should stop at Egypt either,but also showcase other not so well known African cultures and civlizations.
[This message has been edited by ausar (edited 23 October 2005).]
I was also somewhat shocked to see the Discovery Channel in a special about the Exodus devote a minute or two to the proper physical appearance of Moses. In this section of the special they had an Afrocentric scholar go on a many rant about how Moses would not have looked like "Charleton Heston" and based on his being born in Africa in an African nation such as Ancient Egypt would have been a Black man. Obviously there are flaws in this logic but nonetheless it was a bold step for the Discovery Channel to take. I have no doubt that if they had the proper dedication to such a project they could very easily release a special detailing the African origins of Egyptian Civilization.
Imagine seeing all the discussions here explained with footage. Video footage could be presented of the different types of cultural similairities Egyptians have with other Africans including reenactments of Egyptians engaging in these practices, footage of various people in Africa who have those cultural traits in common and people in Modern Egypt who still practice those customs. It would be a very effective and interesting Tv special indeed.
quote:
Originally posted by ausar:
Actually, this Africa channel is going to be on mainstream satellite and cable companies I believe. The channel is supposed to shatter streotypes that Americans have about African countries.You know anybody can write a rough draft and get it shown on Discovery or TLC.
I agree with the website. Very good idea. Personally, I don't think we should stop at Egypt either,but also showcase other not so well known African cultures and civlizations.
I think the public should definitely be informed about this. Africa is no doubt the most misconcieved and misinformed continent in the world. I used to have a lot of misconceptions about African people, their history, and their culture until I did more research. Believe it or not, there are some people out there who still hold the old "Tarzan" views about Africa being a "dark continent" and that Africans who were not colonized or Westernized in some way were wild "savages"!!
There was an execellent book I read years back called Mistaking Africa by a Curtis A. Keim. It dispells many Western misconceptions such as the classification of many African groups as being "tribes" when in fact they are ethnicities, and of course the belief that Africans were uncivilized. He also talks a great deal about the impact of European imperialism and slavery and how Western views are the legacy of these institutions.
If they made the association you mention, all will see the link. But being clever means you hide it in plain sight. The deceit of scholarship!
quote:
Originally posted by Horemheb:
keins, Possibly that should tell you something. They don't focus on the direct connection to Africa because there is not one.
- the Zar rituals
- ancestoral worship/reverence
- divine kingship and concept of the rainmaker king
- the significant role of women
- Totemism & their taboos
- the hair styles and types,
- the circumcision rites as coming of age
- the concept of the shadow as an extension of the body
- the language
- the dress style
-fertility rites
-name beliefs
-sacred colors
and MORE...
Possibly you're just a sensless fool.
[This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 24 October 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Horemheb:
keins, Possibly that should tell you something. They don't focus on the direct connection to Africa because there is not one.
Care to elaborate?
Or are you one of those people who thinks no civilization had a direct connection to its region, Greece and Mesopatamia included?
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Horemheb:
[b]keins, Possibly that should tell you something. They don't focus on the direct connection to Africa because there is not one.
- the Zar rituals
- ancestoral worship/reverence
- divine kingship and concept of the rainmaker king
- the significant role of women
- Totemism & their taboos
- the hair styles and types,
- the circumcision rites as coming of age
- the concept of the shadow as an extension of the body
- the language
- the dress style
-fertility rites
-name beliefs
-sacred colors
and MORE...
Possibly you're just a sensless fool.
[This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 24 October 2005).][/B][/QUOTE]
He must not believe Greece has a direct connection to Europe or Mesopatamia to West Asia either. That must be it. Otherwise we have no choice to believe that Horemheb is mentally ill.
You don't state that a cultural connection does not exist AFTER someone has presented not one but ELEVEN examples proving that it does. Such logic is that of a mentally ill individual.
quote:
Originally posted by Mansa Musa:
He must not believe Greece has a direct connection to Europe or Mesopatamia to West Asia either. That must be it. Otherwise we have no choice to believe that Horemheb is mentally ill.You don't state that a cultural connection does not exist AFTER someone has presented not one but ELEVEN examples proving that it does. Such logic is that of a mentally ill individual.
Mansa, Hore is just a stubborn fool who cannot accept the FACTS as they are!
quote:
As Supercar says:You [Keins] reiterate a good point about the idea of placing stronger focus on Kemetian culture, as much as that given to its primary biological base. Distorters, as I said earlier, may make fantastic and overly simplistic claims about Ancient Egyptian being "Near Eastern" and leave it to just that. However, when pressed to explain reasoning for such a wild claim, one gets absolute silence on the issue. This of course, is not surprising, given that these distorters in the first place, don't know much in the way of the culture they speak of, which apparently comes across quite clearly to the informed.
With that said, it is interesting to point out that, it is a lost cause to superimpose modern Egyptian establishment's geopolitics over that of ancient Egypt. For example,...
The Kemetians, quite unlike their "multi-heritage" modern counterparts in the region, have been clear on the fact that they don't identify with the "deshretu", which includes "Asiatics". Thus, the act of superimposing modern geopolitical constructs like "Middle East" or "Near East" on an ancient African culture, is but just another futile tool of distorters. Quite significantly, Kemetians weren't ashamed of associating themselves with the term "black", which is also something that strongly contrasts with many members of their multi-heritage modern counterparts. Again, “black”, from the Kemetian stanpoint, was “sacred”.
So you see, Hore has nothing further to say about the topic. Why? Because he knows little to nothing about BOTH African and "Near-Eastern" culture!!
Which is why, the best thing we could do is just ignore him and continue to talk about Egypt from it's more accurate perspective!
quote:
Originally posted by Super car:
You know Relaxx, I asked you a question pertaining to this topic in a thread, which you dedicated to it, but never received a response. Sure they were conflicts between some cattle herders and farming communities, but what evidence is there to suggest that the "unspecified" Africans despise farming activities? Did they not utilize farming at any point in time, as part of their mixed economies? The same goes for Africans like the Somalis.
[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 23 October 2005).]
Since you brought Somalis in the subject, there is a division among Somalis between Saabs and Samaals: the Saabs (Digil and Rahanweyn) mix farming and the herding of cattle. But they are viewed with suspicion by other Samaals who are exclusively cattle herders (Hawiye, Darod and Issaqs) and tend to scorn them because of their farming activities. Tensions between cattle herders and farmers as another poster mentioned are "historical" in Africa and are not related to slavery as you mentioned in one of your posts. Here are some examples: Mali, Niger, Sudan, Chad, Somalia, RDC, Rwanda, Burundi, Tanzania. In those cases it pits: Fulanis, Tuaregs, Toubou, Tedas, Berbers, Tutsis, Hema, Sudan Arabized nomads against sedentary farmers, it seems those tensions are quite old dating back thousand years ago. The origin of the tensions is based on land and cultural differences.
Relaxx.
Unfortunately there are those individuals that have not accepted the FACTS as they are and still continue to deny the obvious in absolute futility.
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
*sigh* The record has been set straight long time ago by the Egyptians themselves and is now only recently being accepted by the mainstream West.Unfortunately there are those individuals that have not accepted the FACTS as they are and still continue to deny the obvious in absolute futility.
quote:
Originally posted by Horemheb:
they don't see the Egyptians as Africans, nobody does. Most people correctly view Egyptians as near eastern. If the zulu had mummies and the book showed those, they would have been mentioed as Africans. Simple as that.
Tell me Hore. What type of landmass is the Near East?
quote:
Originally posted by Horemheb:
they don't see the Egyptians as Africans, nobody does. Most people correctly view Egyptians as near eastern.
quote:
If the zulu had mummies and the book showed those, they would have been mentioed as Africans. Simple as that.