quote:

---

Fulani history
Some historians believe the Fulani emerged from a prehistoric pastoral group that originated in the upper Nile region around 3500 B.C. As the climate of the Sahara grew increasingly harsh, population pressures drove them to migrate slowly west and south in search of better grazing lands. By the eleventh century the Fulani emerged as a distinct people group in the Sénégambia Valley. Over the next 400 years they journeyed back east, but south of the Sahara, which had become an inhospitable desert.
Traditionally most Fulani are shepherds or cattle herders, but over time some settled down and, by the nineteenth century, had established a series of kingdoms between Sénégal and Cameroon. The Fulani have myths about how the nomads and settled rulers emerged...

---

quote:

---

Some 12,000 years ago, the only place to live along the eastern Sahara Desert was the Nile Valley . Being so crowded, prime real estate in the Nile Valley was difficult to come by. Disputes over land were often settled with the fist, as evidenced by the cemetery of Jebel Sahaba where many of the buried individuals had died a violent death.

But around 10,500 years ago, a sudden burst of monsoon rains over the vast desert transformed the region into habitable land.

This opened the door for humans to move into the area, as evidenced by the researcher's 500 new radiocarbon dates of human and animal remains from more than 150 excavation sites

---

 

---

Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wally:

...for starters here's some linguistic data comparing Fulani / Mdu Ntr...

I - mi / ni
you - on / un
we - en / un
they - be / bu (people)
to be bad - bonude / boone
bad - boni / bon
death; to die - maayde;maayude / maati, moute, moout, mouti
last year - rawanen / snouf; ronpe
eye - yitere / eirti
blessing - barka / baraka
cow - nagge / naga
father - baaba / baba
...
the evidence is inexhaustible...

---

quote:

---

Just to punch a hole in your rationale, I'll just demonstrate a few examples.
Let's take say, "you" in ancient Egyptian...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wally:

quote:

---

Just to punch a hole in your rationale, I'll just demonstrate a few examples.
Let's take say, "you" in ancient Egyptian...

---

(sigh)
obviously doesn't understand the concept of correspondence in language - agreement: compatibility. Thinks that "exhaustive"(include every possible element) is a way to punch a hole in "correspondence."

Let us give an example by comparing the word "you" in three languages of the Romance family - Spanish, Portuguese, and French:

You - Tu, Voce, Tu
tu / voce / tu
vosotros / voce / te
vosotras / voces / vous
usted / tu / tu
ustedes / te / toi
Ud / ti / on
Vd / Vos / -
uno / senhor / -
la / senhores / -
le / senhora / -
ti / senhoras / -
les / ihe / -
os / ihes / -
te / o / -
vds / os / -
uds / a / -

an example of correspondence between the three related languages would then be;

you: tu / tu / tu
you: tu / voce / tu
you: vosotras / voces / vous

---

You can learn more about comparative linguistics in relation to African and Egyptian languages
here .


.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Although, only the religious take every part of the
Exodus story as historical, most relegate it to the
rank of legend. All legends have a historical core.

Unlike the daydream of Egyptian origins for Fulani no
one seriously disputes that the Israelites became a
national entity in KM.t and left it either voluntarily
or forcefully in New Kingdom times (circa 14th cent.
BCE) from the Eastern Delta.

How's that? The Egyptians never contested the existence
of an Egyptian named leader of A3mw who was an iconoclast
and seceded a multitude of Egyptian nationals and resident
aliens moving them to the Levant.

What? Sounds fantastic? Well it's documented by two
Egyptian scribes, Cheremon and Manetho (yeah, the guy
we owe the king list to, among other things). And the
first documented written historic mention of Israel is
an AEL ethnonym inscribed on orders from none other
than Pharaoh Merneptah himself.

Daydreamers of Egyptian origins for Fulani or other
non-Egyptian ethnies can produce not a single
ethnonymous use of Tutsi, Akan, Fulani, etc.,
in any primary Rn Mdw document.

All they can do is bewail the fact that such exists
for Israel. Envy is such a terrible resource wasting
thing, ain't it Wally.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wally:


Asiatic myths trumps African reality

It is a given that peoples emigrate from their homelands for a myriad of reasons. Emigrations out of historic Egypt into Asia, based almost entirely on biblical mythology, are readily accepted as historical fact - The Hebrews were enslaved in Egypt for [210] years, were led out of there by this guy with an Egyptian name, who had a magical stick that parted the "Red" Sea...

On the reality side, of Africans emigrating from historic Egypt back into Africa, based upon [a feather of non-]evidence; this natural phenomena becomes "controversial"

---

quote:

---

alTakruri writes:
Although, only the religious take every part of the
Exodus story as historical, most relegate it to the
rank of legend. All legends have a historical core.
Unlike the daydream of Egyptian origins for Fulani no
one seriously disputes that the Israelites...

---

quote:

---

...Daydreamers of Egyptian origins for Fulani or other
non-Egyptian ethnies can produce not a single
ethnonymous use of Tutsi, Akan, Fulani, etc.,
in any primary Rn Mdw document.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wally:

quote:

---

Just to punch a hole in your rationale, I'll just demonstrate a few examples.
Let's take say, "you" in ancient Egyptian...

---

(sigh)
obviously doesn't understand the concept of correspondence in language - agreement: compatibility. Thinks that "exhaustive"(include every possible element) is a way to punch a hole in "correspondence."

---

quote:

---

Let us give an example by comparing the word "you" in three languages of the Romance family - Spanish, Portuguese, and French:

You - Tu, Voce, Tu
tu / voce / tu
vosotros / voce / te
vosotras / voces / vous
usted / tu / tu
ustedes / te / toi
Ud / ti / on
Vd / Vos / -
uno / senhor / -
la / senhores / -
le / senhora / -
ti / senhoras / -
les / ihe / -
os / ihes / -
te / o / -
vds / os / -
uds / a / -

an example of correspondence between the three related languages would then be;

you: tu / tu / tu
you: tu / voce / tu
you: vosotras / voces / vous

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:
Futhermore, you are undoubtedly a crackpot who seems to think that ancient Egypt is essentially the origin point of modern humanity. Everyone from Wolof, Dogon, Fula to Bantu speaking groups came recently from Ancient Egypt as far as you are concerned. Talk about a wacko. LOL.

---

The linguistic and anthropological evidence make it clear that these people are related.

No one claims that all Africans originated in Egypt. No one claimed the pgymies and Bushman are from Egypt.

The Fula, Dogon and etc. all belong to the same language family. The evidence makes it clear these people originated in Highlands of the Sahara. After the area became arid these people migrated down into Nubia where they existed as the Niger-Congo Superfamily and went up the Nile to conquer the Anu and found Dynastic Egypt.

You have presented no evidence disputing these facts. All you provide is venom and insult. Material only the ignorant accept as valid and reliable. You sad angrey white boy pretending to be African.



.
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
The Fula speak a language that is part of the Niger-Congo group.There is controversy surrounding the homeland of Niger-Congo.But most linguist place the homeland for this linguistic group in the Nile Valley. An origin of the Niger-Congo people in the Nile Valley would explain the close relationship between the Fulani and Egyptian languages; and place Fulani in East Africa.





For example, Jaja, J. M. 2008 “Interdisciplinary Methods for the Writing of “African History: A Reappraisal,” European Journal of Social Sciences 5(4): 55-65

quote:

---

(2) Niger – Kordofanian homeland
The West African region is largely made up of the Niger-Kordofanian language family. The block of course excludes the 100 or 50 languages classified as Afro-Asiatic and the Songhai and Kanuri languages which belong to the Nile -–Saharan group. The Niger – Kordofanian family is composed of three large blocks called the Mande, Niger – Congo and Kordofanian. Niger – Congo occupies the eastern section of West Africa, Mande the Western section and Kordofanian the area to the south west of Sudan. The present geographical location of these three language blocks forms a fanlike structure, which suggests that their homeland is at the south-western Sahara where the boundaries of each group converge. The Mande group does not have the same degree of internal diversity as the Niger – Congo and Kordofanian. But Niger-Congo and Kordofanian have the same degree of diversity. (Dalby 1965). A combination of this fact and the fan-shaped arrangement of the three language blocks suggests that
they belong to the same main language family. Besides, the unfavourable ecological situation north of the homeland, and the possibility of only moving southwards explains the fan-shaped nature of the dispersal to the area of southwestern Sahara.

---

quote:

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Thus, we have a curious—and complex—pattern of prehistoric occupation in the Méma. There are a few sites demonstrably earlier than c. 4500-4000 BP [3.3-2.5 KBC]. There is a flourit of stone-using communities around 3500-3300 BP [1.9-1.6KBC] (with population injections from the Hodh and the Azawad). Then the region suffers an apparent sharp fall-off of population at c. 800-500 BC (despite a final infusion of Tichitt folk at mid-millennium)..

---

quote:

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pp. 132-133. With some misgivings, Table 3.4 puts forward dates and possible motives for expansion for the families of Niger-Congo. The dates are arranged in order of antiquity, not in the hypothetical order suggested by the genetic tree, and, in many cases the two are strongly at variance. There is no necessary correlation between the age of a family estimated from its apparent internal diversity and the date at which it appears to split from the Niger-Congo tree.. .
. . .

MANDE 6000 BP Mande languages have spread from north to south with scattered outliers in Nigeria and Cote d’Ivoire. Mande shares the common Niger-Congo roots for cow and goat, and perhaps the Proto-Mande were an isolated livestock-keeping population at the edge of the desert, which expanded southward as habitat change created potential space for livestock keeping. Reconstructions implying cropping are not present in the protolanguage.

---

quote:

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p. 294 A second, but still early and important stage in Niger-Congo history was the proto-Mande-Congo era. At this period, or so it appears from the evidence of word histories, the cultivation of the guinea yam and possibly other crops, such as the oil palm, began among at least the peoples of the Atlantic and Ijo-Congo branches of the family (Williamson 1993 proposes the early words for these crops; Greenberg 1964 identifies an Atlantic and Ijo-Congo verb for cultivation, •-lim-). Between possibly about 8000 and 6000 BC, these people spread across the woodland savannahs of West Africa, the natural environment of the Guinea yams. At that time, woodland savannah environments extended several hundred kilometers farther north into the Sudan belt than they do today.

---

code:

---

Kol                sonna       ---             ---       ----
Wolof (AF.)        suna        ---            ----       ---
Mande (AF)         suna      bara, baga     de-n, doro  koro
Tamil            connal     varaga           tinai      kural
Malayalam        colam      varaku           tina        ---
Kannanda          ---     baraga, baragu     tene    korale,korle
                 *sona      *baraga          *tenä     *kora 

---

code:

---

Galla    baji  'cultivated field'
Tulu (Dravidian language)    bey, benni
Nubian    ba, bat  'hoe up ground'
Malinke    be
Somali     beer
Wolof       mbey, ambey, bey
Egyptian     b j(w)
Sumerian    buru, bur  'to root up'

---

code:

---

Galla          senyi
Malinke        se , si
Sumerian       se
Egyptian       sen 'granary'
Kannanda        cigur

Bozo           sii
Bambara        sii
Daba           sisin
Somali         sinni
Loma           sii
Susu           sansi
Oromo          sanyi
Dime           siimu
Egyptian        ssr 'corn'
   id.          ssn  'lotus plant'
   id.          sm   'herb, plant'
   id.          isw  'weeds'

---

code:

---

	Rice
Soninke         dugo
Vai             ko'o
Manding         malo
Dravidian       mala-kurula
Mende            molo, konu
Kpelle           moloy
Boko             mole
Bisa             muhi
Busa             mole
Sa               mela
Bambara          kini

	Yam
Bozo              ku, kunan
Vai               jambi
Malinke            ku
Dravidian          kui, kuna, ku
Bambara            ku

---

quote:

---

Wm. E. Welmers. 1971 "Niger-Congo, Mande" in T.A. Sebeok, et al. eds. Linguistics in sub-Saharan Africa (Current Trends in Linguistics, 7), pp. 113-140 The Hague: Mouton

P 119-120. By way of conclusion to this general overview of the Mande languages, a a bit of judicious speculation about Mande origins and migrations may not be out of order. It has already been stated that the Mande languages clearly represent the earliest offshoot from the parent Niger-Congo stock—not counting Kordofanian, which Greenberg considers parallel to all of the Niger-Congo, forming a Niger-Kordofanian macrofamily. An original Niger-Congo homeland in the general vicinity of the upper Nile valley is probably as good a hypothesis as any. From such a homeland, a westward Mande migration may have begun well over 5000 years ago. Perhaps the earliest division within this group resulted in the isolation of what is now represented only by Bobo-fing. Somewhat later— perhaps 3500 to 4500 years ago, and possibly from a new homeland around northern Dahomey [now Benin]— the ancestors of the present Northern-western Mande peoples began pushing farther west, ultimately reaching their present homeland in the grasslands and forests of West Africa. This was followed by a gradual spread of the Southern-Eastern division, culminating perhaps 2000 years ago in the separation of its to branches and the ultimate movement of Southern Mande peoples southeast and westward until Mano and Kpelle, long separated, became once more contiguous.

This reconstruction of Mande prehistory receives striking support from a most unexpected source— dogs. Back in the presumed Niger-Congo homeland—the southern Sudan and northern Uganda of modern times— is found the unique barkless, worried-looking, fleet Basenji, who also appears on ancient Egyptian monuments with the typical bee that compensates for his natural silence. Among the Kpelle and Loma people of Liberia, a breed of dogs is found which is so closely identical to the Basenji that it now recognized as the ‘Liberian Basenji’. In all of the Sudan belt of Africa from the Nile Valley to the Liberian forest, the dogs are somewhat similar in appearance, but very obviously mongrelized. It would appear that the Mande peoples originally took their Basenji dogs with them in their westward migration. At that time, the present Sahara desert was capable of sustaining a substantial population, and was presumably the homeland of the Nilo-Saharan peoples. The early Mande moment thus may have been through uninhabited land, and their dogs were spared any cross-breeding. The farthest westward Mande movement—that of the Southwestern group—was virtually complete before contact with dogs of other breeds. With the gradual drying of the Sahara and the southward movement of the Nilo-Saharan peoples, the remaining Mande peoples, as well as later waves of Niger-Congo migration made contact with other people and other dogs. The present canine population of the Liberian forests thus reflects the very early departure of the Mande peoples from their original homeland, and the subsequent early movement of the Southwestern group towards its present location, without contacting substantial number of unrelated people or dogs.

---

Liberian Basenji


Egyptian Basenji
Egyptian Basenji Dog Hieroglyph



.
Trade might account for the presence of Basenji dogs in both places. But, from the sense of the article, Welmers claims that speakers of other African languages surrounding the Kpelle have different dogs.


The term for Basenji may be uher. In Egyptian uher also means house, so some people claim the Egyptians placed a dog size after uher to denote the term dog.


web page

Niger-Congo hunters probably early domesticated the dog. Hunters used dogs to catch their prey .

Egyptian Hieroglyph



.


Egyptian term for dog corresponds to many African, and Dravidian terms for dog:

• Egptian uher
  
  Azer wulle
  
  Bozo kongoro
  
  Guro bere
  
  Vai wuru, ulu
  
  Bo[Bambara] -ulu
  
  Wassulunka wulu
  
  Konyanka wulu
  
  Malinke wuli, wuru, wulu
  
  Dravidian ori

• TABLE 1
  _________________________________________________________________
  Language Chief city,village black/burnt
  Dravidian cira,ca uru kam
  Elamite salu
  Sumerian sar ur
  Manding sa furu kami
  'Charcoal'
  Nubian sirgi amr uru-me
  Semitic sarr ham
  Ubaid sar ur
  Egyptian sr mer kemit
  'blackland'
  Hausa sarki birni
  Paleo-African *Sar *uru *kam
  
  _________________________________________________________________

The above examples from languages spoken by blacks validates Diop's theory that there were cognate black civilizations in Africa and Asia, before the expansion of the Indo-European speaking peoples after 1500 BC. This linguistic data which is outlined in further detail elsewhere (Winters 1985b,1989a) illustrates that a common cultural macrostructure is shared by these speakers, which subsequently evolved along separate lines. Given the genetic unity of these languages we should call this group B(lack) Af(rican), Su(merian), Draa(vidian), (E)lam or Bafsudraalam Superset of languages. This supports Diop's use of the comparative method to illuminate the African past.

Yurco (1989,p.29) also falsely states that the Berber speakers were Libyans. This is false, as proven by Diop (1977). Diop (1977) illustrates that the Berber genealogies place their origin in Saudi Arabia, and point to a very recent settlement (2000 years ago) in the Central Sahara. Diop (1977) believes that the Berbers are the result of the early mixture of Africans and Germanic speaking Vandals. (Diop 1986) This would explain the evident close relationship between the Berber and German languages.

The original inhabitants of the Sahara where the Kemetic civilization originated were Blacks not Berbers or Indo-European speakers. These Blacks formerly lived in the highland regions of the Fezzan and Hoggar until after 4000 BC. This ancient homeland of the Dravidians, Egyptians, Sumerians, Niger-Kordofanian-Mande
and Elamite speakers is called the Fertile African Crescent. (Anselin, 1989, p.16; Winters, 1981,1985b,1991). We call these people the Proto-Saharans (Winters 1985b,1991). The generic term for this group is Kushite. This explains the analogy between the Bafsudraalam languages outlined briefly above. These Proto-Saharans were called Ta-Seti and Tehenu by the Egyptians. Farid(1985,p.82) noted that "We can notice that the beginning of the Neolithic stage in Egypt on the edge of the Western Desert corresponds with the expansion of the Saharian Neolithic culture and the growth of its population". (emphasis that of author).


Kemetic (Egyptian) civilization came from the south not the North as alleged by Yurco (1989). Martel (1992) does admit that Kemetic civilization came from the Saharan Highlands:The Mountains of the Moon, but he failed to admit that Diop's (1974) hypothesis that Kemetic civilization and writing came from the south was proven by the excavations at Qustul. (Williams 1987; Anselin 1989)

The inhabitants of ancient Nubia and Kush are called A-Group, C-Group and etc. by archaeologists. The artifacts found in the A-Group royal cemetery of the Nubians in Ta-Seti at Qustul were the founders of Kem. Bruce Williams (1987,p.173) of the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago has made it clear that the Qustul pharaohs are the Egyptian rulers referred to as the "Red Crown Rulers".


There are similarities between Egyptian and Saharan motifs (Farid,1985). It was in the Sahara that we find the first evidence of agriculture, animal domestication and weaving (Farid , 1985, p.82). This highland region is the Kemites "Mountain of the Moons " region, the area from which the civilization and goods of Kem, originated.

The rock art of the Saharan Highlands support the Egyptian traditions that in ancient times they lived in the Mountains of the Moon. The Predynastic Egyptian mobiliar art and the Saharan rock art share many common themes including, characteristic boats (Farid 1985,p. 82), men with feathers on their head (Petrie ,1921,pl. xvlll,fig.74; Raphael, 1947, pl.xxiv, fig.10; Vandier , 1952, p.285, fig. 192), false tail hanging from the waist (Vandier, 1952, p.353; Farid, 1985,p.83; Winkler 1938,I, pl.xxlll) and the phallic sheath (Vandier, 1952, p.353; Winkler , 1938,I , pl.xvlll,xx, xxlll).

Due to the appearance of aridity in the Mountains of the Moon the Proto-Saharans migrated first into Nubia and thence into Kem. The Proto-Saharan origin of the Kemites explain the fact that the Kushites were known for maintaining the most ancient traditions of the Kemites as proven when the XXVth Dynasty or Kushite Dynasty ruled ancient Egypt. Farid (1985, p.85) wrote that "To conclude, it seems that among Predynastic foreign relations, the [Proto-]Saharians were the first to have significant contact with the Nile Valley, and even formed a part of the Predynastic population" (emphasis author).

This means that the Nomes probably represent different "states" incorporated into ancient Egypt. It is quite possible that each nome represented a different ethnic group.

If this is true the Egyptian language was probably a lingua franca used to provide a means of communication for the diverse people who lived in ancient Egypt. This would explain why Egyptian was used to write Kushite text until Egyptians migrated into Meroitic lands once Egypt was under the control of the Romans.

Alain Anselin La Question Peule, makes it clear that the Fula originated in Egypt. He supports this theory with the obvious similarity between the words for cattle and milk shared by the Egyptians, Fula and Dravidians (Tamil). He believes that by the 12 Dynasty of Egypt Fula were settled in Egypt.

The Egyptians had many gods. They had these gods because as new ethnicities formed nomes in Egypt they brought their gods with them.

A good example of this amalgamation of various African ethnicities into Egypt is the followers of the god Ra. Some of the first rulers of Egypt saw Ra as the main god.

Later the Egyptians worshipped Aman/Amun which was a Saharan god. ). By the 2nd millennium BC Kushites at kerma were already worshippers of Amon/Amun and they used a distinctive black-and-red ware (Bonnet 1986; Winters 1985b,1991). Amon, later became a major god of the Egyptians during the 18th Dynasty.

A majority of Fula may have remained nomadic, but settled Fula probaly form a major ethnic group in an Egyptian Nome, as did Wolof and Mande speaking people. This is the best way to explain the close genetic linguistic relationship between these groups.

Granted, some Wolof, Mande and Fula made their way to West Africa, but many speakers of these languages remained in Egypt and made up one of the various nomes associated with Egypt.

DNA can tells us little about this period unless they recover DNA from the people living at that time. DNA from living individuals only tell us abou the contemporary group. Not the original people.


.
 

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Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 
This doesn't relate directly with the "Egyptian origin of the Fulani" but is a clarification of an idiot's - the explorer's - irrelevant input: This list is for those who would like the information but who are not inclined to look it up - my bad?

"You" in Mdu Ntr
ten - 2nd singular. feminine
tenou - 2nd plural
teuten - you
tewi, tu, tut - absolute pronoun.2nd singular
tini
un - you.they.them.their
_ntuten - 2nd person.plural
ntu - those who

"I" in Mdu Ntr
_i - I.me.my
anok
un - we.us
ni - I.me.my
nwi - I.me
---
twn - our
 

---

Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 
Clyde Winters writes:

quote:

---

Alain Anselin La Question Peule, makes it clear that the Fula originated in Egypt. He supports this theory with the obvious similarity between the words for cattle and milk shared by the Egyptians, Fula and Dravidians (Tamil). He believes that by the 12 Dynasty of Egypt Fula were settled in Egypt.

The Egyptians had many gods. They had these gods because as new ethnicities formed nomes in Egypt they brought their gods with them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by a heritageless piece of shyt:


This doesn't relate directly with the "Egyptian origin of the Fulani" but is a clarification of an idiot's - the explorer's - irrelevant input.

This list is for those who would like the information but who are not inclined to look it up - my bad?

"You" in Mdu Ntr
ten - 2nd singular. feminine
tenou - 2nd plural
teuten - you
tewi, tu, tut - absolute pronoun.2nd singular
tini
un - you.they.them.their
_ntuten - 2nd person.plural
ntu - those who

"I" in Mdu Ntr
_i - I.me.my
anok
un - we.us
ni - I.me.my
nwi - I.me
---
twn - our

---

quote:

---

This in fact, is relevant to the topic, and now that you yourself have essentially repeated the list after me, you've discredited your attempt to use your idealistically "selective" singular "derivative" of a lexicon that is the ancient Egyptian equivalent of "you" and "I" respectively, so as to draw a familial link between Fula and ancient Egyptian, even though "You" and "I" in ancient Egyptian are respectively represented by a variety of lexicon with constituent lexicon that don't remotely resemble the initial ones you dogmatically used to make the "Fula - ancient Egyptian comparison". This is the point I was hammering into your head, when it went ignored. And as I noted, those ones I presented were mere examples; similar treatment could be applied to several of the other lexicon in your earlier so-called "Fula-ancient Egyptian" comparison.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wally:

quote:

---

alTakruri writes:
Although, only the religious take every part of the
Exodus story as historical, most relegate it to the
rank of legend. All legends have a historical core.
Unlike the daydream of Egyptian origins for Fulani no
one seriously disputes that the Israelites...

---

The Fulani legends of origins in the east and specifically Egypt is exempt from having a historical core and is thus relegated to a daydream...how quaint and utterly contradictory...

quote:

---

...Daydreamers of Egyptian origins for Fulani or other
non-Egyptian ethnies can produce not a single
ethnonymous use of Tutsi, Akan, Fulani, etc.,
in any primary Rn Mdw document.

---

You continue to insist on misunderstanding the meaning of these religious terms and gods, and the fact of these names existing in the culture of Ancient Egypt. I'll try and give an example of how one should interpret this:

If you are strolling casually in some nondescript place and run into some kids wearing various garb; one sports a baseball cap with "NY" as a logo, another wears a tee-shirt with a silk-screen painting of the Golden Gate Bridge, another sports a "Lakers" jersey - your first impression is that these kids are either Americans or are heavily influenced by American culture...

The existence of major ethnic groups throughout Africa, who just happen to have self-described ethnic names that are exact replicas of the names of Ancient Egyptian gods is not something that one casually casts aside. This is factual evidence and not legend. I think that most people here got this the first time around...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
There is controversy surrounding the homeland of Niger-Congo. But most linguist place the homeland for this linguistic group in the Nile Valley. An origin of the Niger-Congo people in the Nile Valley would explain the close relationship between the Fulani and Egyptian languages; and place Fulani in East Africa.

[further references left out in deference to storage
and bandwidth but can be accessed in Dr. Winters'
original post above]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
This is all well and true about the ultimate affinity and
single birthing locale for the non-"Khoisan" languages of
Africa in their proto forms, but would not that mean that
there were neither Egyptians nor Fulani nor not many other
recent African ethnies at that far remote place and time in
the history of our people?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
There is controversy surrounding the homeland of Niger-Congo. But most linguist place the homeland for this linguistic group in the Nile Valley. An origin of the Niger-Congo people in the Nile Valley would explain the close relationship between the Fulani and Egyptian languages; and place Fulani in East Africa.

[further references left out in deference to storage
and bandwidth but can be accessed in Dr. Winters'
original post above]

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

You are being ignored because your example of 'you' is irrelevant to this discussion of comparative linguistics.

---

quote:

---

For example in English we can say / you/ in many different ways: Thou, Thee, You, etc. Eventhough /you/, appears to be unrelated to French 'vous'= you they are related.

---

quote:

---

As a result, when you attempt to use the varying forms of Egyptian that are not related to Fula for the same lexical item 'you' prove nothing because Wally presented examples that show cognation between Egyptian and Fula.

---

Well, I prove "nothing" only to morons who cannot read, and hence, miss the point; but for those who can read, oh absolutely, my point is concise, loud and clear.
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wally:

...for starters here's some linguistic data comparing Fulani / Mdu Ntr...

I - mi / ni
you - on / un
we - en / un
they - be / bu (people)
to be bad - bonude / boone
bad - boni / bon
death; to die - maayde;maayude / maati, moute, moout, mouti
last year - rawanen / snouf; ronpe
eye - yitere / eirti
blessing - barka / baraka
cow - nagge / naga
father - baaba / baba
...
the evidence is inexhaustible...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

You are being ignored because your example of 'you' is irrelevant to this discussion of comparative linguistics.

---

You seem to be mistranslating my reference to Wally's cowardice as my supposed anxiety over "being ignored". You're funny, but get a clue.

And no, "my example" of "you" is quite relevant for reasons stated. Any idiot knows what I said, and so, I don't intend to repeat for those beyond said idiocy.

quote:

---

For example in English we can say / you/ in many different ways: Thou, Thee, You, etc. Eventhough /you/, appears to be unrelated to French 'vous'= you they are related.

---

The burden lies on you, to point out from the "variety" of lexicons out there for the ancient Egyptian equivalent of "you", how Wally's initial *highly idealistic* cherry-picking of just one supposed term for "you" [when there are obviously many others to examine] is the "authentic" ancient Egyptian term for "you" whereas the others, that I listed which Wally himself repeated after me, are less "authentic", and hence irrelevant, along with the point I made in tandem with listing them. Talk is cheap.

Note: And if you can read at all, you'll notice that there are at least three different independent pronoun manifestations of "you" in ancient Egyptian, all of which differ markedly from Wally's "choice" lexicon for the so-called Fula-ancient Egyptian comparison. Dare I ask you, what that means?

quote:

---

As a result, when you attempt to use the varying forms of Egyptian that are not related to Fula for the same lexical item 'you' prove nothing because Wally presented examples that show cognation between Egyptian and Fula.

---

Well, I prove "nothing" only to morons who cannot read, and hence, miss the point; but for those who can read, oh absolutely, my point is concise, loud and clear.

---

your example of 'you' is irrelevant to this discussion of comparative linguistics. For example in English we can say / you/ in many different ways: Thou, Thee, You, etc. Eventhough /you/, appears to be unrelated to French 'vous'= you they are related.

As a result, when you attempt to use the varying forms of Egyptian that are not related to Fula for the same lexical item 'you' prove nothing because Wally presented examples that show cognation between Egyptian and Fula.

You have presented no evidence disputing these facts. All you provide is venom and insult. Material only the ignorant accept as valid and reliable. You sad angrey white boy pretending to be African.





.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Those of us long conversant with the facts know
the major phyla of Africa did not develop until long
after the Out-of-Africa events that populated the
non-African world.

Thus it is pointless to mention "This does NOT
stretch so far back in time as it would pre-date
man leaving Africa to populate the rest of the
world," because, really, who doesn't know that
already?

The fact remains it was a far remote time and place
when and where the great trunk that branched the
proto forms of the non-"Khoisan" phyla. Their genesis
in the Middle Nile Valley predates Egyptian civilization
by as much as 15,000 years thus resemblances of languages
on opposite sides of the continent are not explainable
by near recent demic diffusion unless there exists an
historic or genetic register of the event.

Despite the ethno-archaeological fact of Fulani cultural
attributes first appearing in Late Stone Age south east
Algeria, some continue to posit an Ancient Egyptian origin
as late as the 12th or even the 18th dynasty. Now how
anachronistic can an argument be then that?

In general the current Sahara, sahel, savannah and most
woodland West African ethnies were resident in the Green
Sahara from which they moved south and southwest to
where they are now found.

No matter how tempered down from the original premise,
that all West Africans and their languages originate in
Ancient Egyptian migrations, to just now saying a select
few did so, it remains a false premise.

Everything we historically know about the Fulani leads
us to the conclusion of a Green Saharan origin followed
by nature generated southwest drift over the millenia to
the Hodh and the Senegal, from whence in recent written
historic times they consciously migrated eastward settling
in the Nile Valley no more that 200 years ago at best.

We have a non-African, Lilias Homburger, to thank for
the first proclamation of non-"Khoisan" languages being
all related. So being African or non-African has no
bearing on facts. Facts stand regardless of the ethnicity,
nationality, continental origin, or skin colour of the
bearer of the facts.

Appeal to racial solidarity does not strengthen an
argument. Cultural ideology will and does make history.
Cultural ideology cannot and does not replace history.

This is why Europe's cultural ideology on Africa no
longer matters, because it is over ruled by facts which
are now much more readily available to the general public
than before.

Likewise an offbase African cultural ideology cannot
stand because readily available facts will undermine it.
Offbase African cultural ideology only blinds and deafens
those little exposed to African reality when they discover
the errors and wrongly assume African studies is a house
of cards.

This is a disservice to valid African cultural ideologies
based on valid and reputable information. This is the
greatest task that now faces our people, to shun a
fanciful African history just as we rejected the deragatory
European history of Africa.

Yes there are bold propositions to be made. Before accepting
them they must be bound by a cable stranded from cold
hard facts.

Our African cultural ideology must be onbase, a base of unassailable fact.

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Gaul:

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
This is all well and true about the ultimate affinity and
single birthing locale for the non-"Khoisan" languages of
Africa in their proto forms, but would not that mean that
there were neither Egyptians nor Fulani nor not many other
recent African ethnies at that far remote place and time in
the history of our people?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
There is controversy surrounding the homeland of Niger-Congo. But most linguist place the homeland for this linguistic group in the Nile Valley. An origin of the Niger-Congo people in the Nile Valley would explain the close relationship between the Fulani and Egyptian languages; and place Fulani in East Africa.

[further references left out in deference to storage
and bandwidth but can be accessed in Dr. Winters'
original post above]

---

---

I think we allow ourselves to fall into a trap set forth mainly by non-Africans, i.e. Explorer, in erroneously believing that showing a link to the NV somehow relegates all of our other African kingdoms and societies to "doormat" status in comparison to AE. Completely mis-guided and a falsehood.

The central point is to show the interrelatedness and affinites of many, if not ALL African people in which one of the points of high concentration, at one point in time, was the Nile Valley. Despite the well documaneted diversity of Africa and Africans, the Nile Valley is one area where similarities can be highlighted to show that we are "one". This is what has been well documented by our African scholars and is the central point being put forth here, specifically with Fulani in this thread.

This does NOT stretch so far back in time as it would pre-date man leaving Africa to populate the rest of the world, and does NOT suggest all africans left the Nile Valley or highlands of the Sahara at the same time, as Dhar Tichitt is an prime example with the Mande.

---

quote:

---

I think we allow ourselves to fall into a trap set forth mainly by non-Africans, i.e. Explorer, in erroneously believing that showing a link to the NV somehow relegates all of our other African kingdoms and societies to "doormat" status in comparison to AE. Completely mis-guided and a falsehood.

The central point is to show the interrelatedness and affinites of many, if not ALL African people in which one of the points of high concentration, at one point in time, was the Nile Valley. Despite the well documented diversity of Africa and Africans, the Nile Valley is one area where similarities can be highlighted to show that we are "one". This is what has been well documented by our African scholars and is the central point being put forth here, specifically with Fulani in this thread.

This does NOT stretch so far back in time as it would pre-date man leaving Africa to populate the rest of the world, and does NOT suggest all africans left the Nile Valley or highlands of the Sahara at the same time, as Dhar Tichitt is an prime example with the Mande.

---

quote:

---

In general the current Sahara, sahel, savannah and most
woodland West African ethnies were resident in the Green
Sahara from which they moved south and southwest to
where they are now found.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Those of us long conversant with the facts know
the major phyla of Africa did not develop until long
after the Out-of-Africa events that populated the
non-African world.

Thus it is pointless to mention "This does NOT
stretch so far back in time as it would pre-date
man leaving Africa to populate the rest of the
world," because, really, who doesn't know that
already?

The fact remains it was a far remote time and place
when and where the great trunk that branched the
proto forms of the non-"Khoisan" phyla. Their genesis
in the Middle Nile Valley predates Egyptian civilization
by as much as 15,000 years thus resemblances of languages
on opposite sides of the continent are not explainable
by near recent demic diffusion unless there exists an
historic or genetic register of the event.

Despite the ethno-archaeological fact of Fulani cultural
attributes first appearing in Late Stone Age south east
Algeria, some continue to posit an Ancient Egyptian origin
as late as the 12th or even the 18th dynasty. Now how
anachronistic can an argument be then that?

In general the current Sahara, sahel, savannah and most
woodland West African ethnies were resident in the Green
Sahara from which they moved south and southwest to
where they are now found.

No matter how tempered down from the original premise,
that all West Africans and their languages originate in
Ancient Egyptian migrations, to just now saying a select
few did so, it remains a false premise.

Everything we historically know about the Fulani leads
us to the conclusion of a Green Saharan origin followed
by nature generated southwest drift over the millenia to
the Hodh and the Senegal, from whence in recent written
historic times they consciously migrated eastward settling
in the Nile Valley no more that 200 years ago at best.

We have a non-African, Lilias Homburger, to thank for
the first proclamation of non-"Khoisan" languages being
all related. So being African or non-African has no
bearing on facts. Facts stand regardless of the ethnicity,
nationality, continental origin, or skin colour of the
bearer of the facts.

Appeal to racial solidarity does not strengthen an
argument. Cultural ideology will and does make history.
Cultural ideology cannot and does not replace history.

This is why Europe's cultural ideology on Africa no
longer matters, because it is over ruled by facts which
are now much more readily available to the general public
than before.

Likewise an offbase African cultural ideology cannot
stand because readily available facts will undermine it.
Offbase African cultural ideology only blinds and deafens
those little exposed to African reality when they discover
the errors and wrongly assume African studies is a house
of cards.

This is a disservice to valid African cultural ideologies
based on valid and reputable information. This is the
greatest task that now faces our people, to shun a
fanciful African history just as we rejected the deragatory
European history of Africa.

Yes there are bold propositions to be made. Before accepting
them they must be bound by a cable stranded from cold
hard facts.

Our African cultural ideology must be onbase, a base of unassailable fact.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


... the people living in these nomes were original West Africans.

... some Fula probably remained in Algeria

... during the Roman period the Fula probably expanded westward and eastward in search of pastures ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The Fula, Dogon and etc. all belong to the same language family. The evidence makes it clear these people originated in Highlands of the Sahara.

---

 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Jaja does not "situate[ their] homeland in the
Sahara near Nubia" as was said. For his three
blocks of Niger-Kordofanian I quote Jaja saying
"their homeland is at the south-western Sahara
where the boundaries of each group converge."

Furthermore Jaja notes "the unfavourable ecological
situation north of the homeland, and the possibility
of only moving southwards explains the fan-shaped
nature of the dispersal to the area of southwestern
Sahara."

Jaja nowhere posits a Niger-Kordofanian homeland
in Nubia. Kordofanian, perhaps the oldest language
in Sudan, is spoken in the Nuba Mountains 700 miles
far upriver from Nubia.



But let us now examine Jaja on West African languages and Egypt.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


Jaja, J. M. 2008 “Interdisciplinary Methods for the Writing of “African History: A Reappraisal,” European Journal of Social Sciences 5(4): 55-65

quote:

---

(2) Niger – Kordofanian homeland
The West African region is largely made up of the Niger-Kordofanian language family. The block of course excludes the 100 or 50 languages classified as Afro-Asiatic and the Songhai and Kanuri languages which belong to the Nile -–Saharan group.

The Niger – Kordofanian family is composed of three large blocks called the
* Mande,
* Niger – Congo and
* Kordofanian.

* Niger – Congo occupies the eastern section of West Africa,
* Mande the Western section and
* Kordofanian the area to the south west of Sudan.

The present geographical location of these three language blocks forms a fanlike structure, which suggests that their homeland is at the south-western Sahara where the boundaries of each group converge. The Mande group does not have the same degree of internal diversity as the Niger – Congo and Kordofanian. But Niger-Congo and Kordofanian have the same degree of diversity. (Dalby 1965). A combination of this fact and the fan-shaped arrangement of the three language blocks suggests that
they belong to the same main language family.

Besides, the unfavourable ecological situation north of the homeland, and the possibility of only moving southwards explains the fan-shaped nature of the dispersal to the area of southwestern Sahara.

---

Jaja discusses the present location of the speakers of these languages, but like Welmers he situates there homeland in the Sahara near Nubia.

---

quote:

---

The Contribution of Linguistics to the Study of Origins in West Africa

. . . .

Linguistic evidence was also significant in determining the origin of the Yoruba people.
Popular writings from the 1920s to the present suggest that the Yorubas originated from
Egypt or from Arabia. However, with the help of linguistic techniques we are now aware
that;

1. There is virtually little or no similarity in the basic core vocabulary of Yoruba and
   Ancient Egyptian or between Yoruba and Arabic.
2. There is rather a very high degree of similarity between Yoruba and Igala
3. There is a fairly high degree of similarity in the basic vocabulary between Yoruba,
   Edo, Igbo, Idoma, Igbira and Nupe.

From these three results we can conclude that the origin of the Yorubas i.e. not in Egypt or in
the Middle East, but rather within the vicinity of the languages that are similar to the Yoruba language.
This vicinity is in Southern and South Central Nigeria.

Jones M. Jaja
Interdisciplinary Methods for the Writing of
African History: A Reappraisal
European Journal of Social Sciences – Volume 5, Number 4 (2008)
p.58

---

quote:

---

Linguistic evidence has also been used to refute the tradition that the Fulani people originated from Arabia. There is virtually zero similarity between Fulfulde and Arabic. On the contrary Fulfulde is closely related to Wolof and Serer both of which belong to the West Atlantic language family which is a branch of Niger – Kordofanian. Thus the Fulani people should trace their origin to the Senegal valley rather than to the Middle East.

op. cit. pp.58-59

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
If they were original West Africans how could have
an Egyptian origin?

Origin starts in one place.

If they remained in Algeria then they did not originate
in Egypt. If they were in a nome in Egypt then they
were cattle ranchers not transhumants in search of
pasturage.

The hole is getting deeper and deeper.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


... the people living in these nomes were original West Africans.

... some Fula probably remained in Algeria

... during the Roman period the Fula probably expanded westward and eastward in search of pastures ...

---

---

They are the original West Africans because they lived in Egypt and now dominate West Africa.


This is a stupid comment. As you know none of the Dynastic Egyptians originated in "Egypt" the archaeology makes it clear the Egyptians came from the highlands, migrated into Kush and move from the south into the area we call Dynastic Egypt.

Testimony of this Kushite origin is the Ta Seti Incense burner





.
 

---

Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
This is a stupid comment. As you know none of the Dynastic Egyptians originated in "Egypt" the archaeology makes it clear the Egyptians came from the highlands, migrated into Kush and move from the south into the area we call Dynastic Egypt.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Jaja does not "situate[ their] homeland in the
Sahara near Nubia" as was said. For his three
blocks of Niger-Kordofanian I quote Jaja saying
"their homeland is at the south-western Sahara
where the boundaries of each group converge."

Furthermore Jaja notes "the unfavourable ecological
situation north of the homeland, and the possibility
of only moving southwards explains the fan-shaped
nature of the dispersal to the area of southwestern
Sahara."

Jaja nowhere posits a Niger-Kordofanian homeland
in Nubia. Kordofanian, perhaps the oldest language
in Sudan, is spoken in the Nuba Mountains 700 miles
far upriver from Nubia.



But let us now examine Jaja on West African languages and Egypt.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


Jaja, J. M. 2008 “Interdisciplinary Methods for the Writing of “African History: A Reappraisal,” European Journal of Social Sciences 5(4): 55-65

quote:

---

(2) Niger – Kordofanian homeland
The West African region is largely made up of the Niger-Kordofanian language family. The block of course excludes the 100 or 50 languages classified as Afro-Asiatic and the Songhai and Kanuri languages which belong to the Nile -–Saharan group.

The Niger – Kordofanian family is composed of three large blocks called the
* Mande,
* Niger – Congo and
* Kordofanian.

* Niger – Congo occupies the eastern section of West Africa,
* Mande the Western section and
* Kordofanian the area to the south west of Sudan.

The present geographical location of these three language blocks forms a fanlike structure, which suggests that their homeland is at the south-western Sahara where the boundaries of each group converge. The Mande group does not have the same degree of internal diversity as the Niger – Congo and Kordofanian. But Niger-Congo and Kordofanian have the same degree of diversity. (Dalby 1965). A combination of this fact and the fan-shaped arrangement of the three language blocks suggests that
they belong to the same main language family.

Besides, the unfavourable ecological situation north of the homeland, and the possibility of only moving southwards explains the fan-shaped nature of the dispersal to the area of southwestern Sahara.

---

Jaja discusses the present location of the speakers of these languages, but like Welmers he situates there homeland in the Sahara near Nubia.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

quote:

---

The Contribution of Linguistics to the Study of Origins in West Africa

. . . .

Linguistic evidence was also significant in determining the origin of the Yoruba people.
Popular writings from the 1920s to the present suggest that the Yorubas originated from
Egypt or from Arabia. However, with the help of linguistic techniques we are now aware
that;

1. There is virtually little or no similarity in the basic core vocabulary of Yoruba and
   Ancient Egyptian or between Yoruba and Arabic.
2. There is rather a very high degree of similarity between Yoruba and Igala
3. There is a fairly high degree of similarity in the basic vocabulary between Yoruba,
   Edo, Igbo, Idoma, Igbira and Nupe.

From these three results we can conclude that the origin of the Yorubas i.e. not in Egypt or in
the Middle East, but rather within the vicinity of the languages that are similar to the Yoruba language.
This vicinity is in Southern and South Central Nigeria.

Jones M. Jaja
Interdisciplinary Methods for the Writing of
African History: A Reappraisal
European Journal of Social Sciences – Volume 5, Number 4 (2008)
p.58

---

Let's go on to see what he has to say about Fulani.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

quote:

---

Linguistic evidence has also been used to refute the tradition that the Fulani people originated from Arabia. There is virtually zero similarity between Fulfulde and Arabic. On the contrary Fulfulde is closely related to Wolof and Serer both of which belong to the West Atlantic language family which is a branch of Niger – Kordofanian. Thus the Fulani people should trace their origin to the Senegal valley rather than to the Middle East.

op. cit. pp.58-59

---

Jaja fails to back the thread header The Egyptian
Origin of the Fulani. Jaja supports local origins.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Please answer these questions:

What linguistic evidence does JaJa present which led him to reach this conclusion?

Did he provide evidence that Egyptian and Yoruba lack cognate terms?

If he did please provide examples of the terms he used to make this determination.

If he provides no evidence this is just another example of an African writing material attacking Afrocentrism so they can be published. Wally provides linguistic evidence supporting his claim.

To counter this claim you must provide counter linguistic evidence--not opinions.

.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
... this is just another example of an African writing material attacking Afrocentrism so they can be published.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Amazing! Jaja was fine without a background check
when you incorrectly used him but now that we see
clearly that Jaja disfavors diffusion you doubt his
scholarship.

Remember it was you who erected Jaja as a champion
of diffusion. Had you carefully and entirely read
what he wrote maybe you wouldn't now be spreading
propaganda over his name.

Can't attack the ideas? Then attack the man holding them.

Nowhere does Jaja so much as mention any Afri-eccentricism.

Jaja explicitly attacked European cultural idelogy
applied to Africana. A strange way to go about "just
to get published" especially in a journal with Europe
in its title. Sorry, your grandstanding was misapplied,
but your anti-African bias remains as strong as ever.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Please answer these questions:

What linguistic evidence does JaJa present which led him to reach this conclusion?

Did he provide evidence that Egyptian and Yoruba lack cognate terms?

If he did please provide examples of the terms he used to make this determination.

If he provides no evidence this is just another example of an African writing material attacking Afrocentrism so they can be published. Wally provides linguistic evidence supporting his claim.

To counter this claim you must provide counter linguistic evidence--not opinions.

.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
As I await your verification for what you quoted from Jaja.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
As I await your verification for what you quoted from Jaja.

---

I have not disputed your interpretation of Jaja I just want you discuss the evidence he uses to support his claim. If there was no linguistic evidence provided why should we accept his claim that there was no relationship?

.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
I want you to do the same. After all, he's your witness,
you summoned him to this court so it should be you who
recalls him to the stand.

Now go ahead and impeach your witness, for if he
has no stuffing in the one case then he has none
in the other either, meaning that everything you
relied on him for is just based on "no linguistic
evidence provided."

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
As I await your verification for what you quoted from Jaja.

---

I have not disputed your interpretation of Jaja I just want you discuss the evidence he uses to support his claim. If there was no linguistic evidence provided why should we accept his claim that there was no relationship?

.

---

---

quote:

---

(2) Niger – Kordofanian homeland
The West African region is largely made up of the Niger-Kordofanian language family. The block of course excludes the 100 or 50 languages classified as Afro-Asiatic and the Songhai and Kanuri languages which belong to the Nile -–Saharan group. The Niger – Kordofanian family is composed of three large blocks called the Mande, Niger – Congo and Kordofanian. Niger – Congo occupies the eastern section of West Africa, Mande the Western section and Kordofanian the area to the south west of Sudan. The present geographical location of these three language blocks forms a fanlike structure, which suggests that their homeland is at the south-western Sahara where the boundaries of each group converge. The Mande group does not have the same degree of internal diversity as the Niger – Congo and Kordofanian. But Niger-Congo and Kordofanian have the same degree of diversity. (Dalby 1965). A combination of this fact and the fan-shaped arrangement of the three language blocks suggests that
they belong to the same main language family. Besides, the unfavourable ecological situation north of the homeland, and the possibility of only moving southwards explains the fan-shaped nature of the dispersal to the area of southwestern Sahara.

---

Jaja discusses the present location of the speakers of these languages, but like Welmers he situates there homeland in the Sahara near Nubia.

This statement is what I have been claiming all along that these people came from the Sahara.

You have done additional research on Jaja, now you can answer my questions about his work.

.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
I have done no additional anything withh Jaja. I
have done no more than read the article you your
self directed us to.

The points is not whether I agree or disagree with
Jaja. The point is Jaja does not support diffusionist
views. You cannot use Jaja to support your position.
Jaja opposes your position.

There is no statement from Jaja that their homeland
is "in the Sahara near Nubia." Above, in your bolded
sentence, Jaja states "their homeland is at the
south-western Sahara."





Here's a bit of simple geography. Divide the Sahara
lengthwise and breadthwise. This will yield four quadrants.

Upper right quadrant = northeast Sahara
Upper left quadrant = northwest Sahara
Lower left quadrant = southwest Sahara
Lower right quadrant = southeast Sahara

List the countries in the lower left or southwest.
Is Nubia near any of those countries?
Is West Africa near any of those countries?



Again note that Kordofanian is spoken in the Nuba Mountains near the southeast of the Sahara
not in the Nubian Desert.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Wait a minute. My position is that the first
cultural-Archaeological evidence for Fulani
traits appear in Late Stone Age Sahara at
Tassili n'Ajjer in southeast Algeria.

You've favored a 12th dynasty Egyptian origin for
Fulani based on I don't know what.

One people can't originate in two different places
at two different times. So which is it? Is it the
Sahara, and precisely when and where in the Sahara,
or is it Dynastic Egypt? Please choose one or the other.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
This statement is what I have been claiming all along that these people came from the Sahara.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Fula speak a language that is part of the Niger-Congo group.There is controversy surrounding the homeland of Niger-Congo.But most linguist place the homeland for this linguistic group in the Nile Valley. An origin of the Niger-Congo people in the Nile Valley would explain the close relationship between the Fulani and Egyptian languages; and place Fulani in East Africa.





For example, Jaja, J. M. 2008 “Interdisciplinary Methods for the Writing of “African History: A Reappraisal,” European Journal of Social Sciences 5(4): 55-65

quote:

---

(2) Niger – Kordofanian homeland
The West African region is largely made up of the Niger-Kordofanian language family. The block of course excludes the 100 or 50 languages classified as Afro-Asiatic and the Songhai and Kanuri languages which belong to the Nile -–Saharan group. The Niger – Kordofanian family is composed of three large blocks called the Mande, Niger – Congo and Kordofanian. Niger – Congo occupies the eastern section of West Africa, Mande the Western section and Kordofanian the area to the south west of Sudan. The present geographical location of these three language blocks forms a fanlike structure, which suggests that their homeland is at the south-western Sahara where the boundaries of each group converge. The Mande group does not have the same degree of internal diversity as the Niger – Congo and Kordofanian. But Niger-Congo and Kordofanian have the same degree of diversity. (Dalby 1965). A combination of this fact and the fan-shaped arrangement of the three language blocks suggests that
they belong to the same main language family. Besides, the unfavourable ecological situation north of the homeland, and the possibility of only moving southwards explains the fan-shaped nature of the dispersal to the area of southwestern Sahara.

---

Jaja discusses the present location of the speakers of these languages, but like Welmers he situates there homeland in the Sahara near Nubia.

McIntosh, R. J. 1998 The Peoples of the Middle Niger: the Island of Gold Oxford: Blackwell Publishers

quote:

---

Thus, we have a curious—and complex—pattern of prehistoric occupation in the Méma. There are a few sites demonstrably earlier than c. 4500-4000 BP [3.3-2.5 KBC]. There is a flourit of stone-using communities around 3500-3300 BP [1.9-1.6KBC] (with population injections from the Hodh and the Azawad). Then the region suffers an apparent sharp fall-off of population at c. 800-500 BC (despite a final infusion of Tichitt folk at mid-millennium)..

---

Does not contradict Welmer’s, all it says is that people from Dar Tichitt entered the area around 800-500 BC, this was hundreds of years after the Mande had established settlement in the Dar Tichitt region.



Roger Blench, Is Niger-Congo simply a branch of Nilo-Saharan, Nilo-Saharan ,(1995) 10:83-128, like Welmer’s noted that :

"Previous writers, noting the concentration of families in West Africa, have tended to assume a location somewhere near the headwaters of the Niger and explained Kordofanian by the migration of a single group. If the present classification is accepted, it becomes far more likely that the homeland was in in the centre of present-daySudan and the Kordofanian represents the Niger-Congo speakers who stayed at home (p.98)."


Roger Blench. 2006. Archaeology, Language, and the African Past New York: Altamira Press

quote:

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pp. 132-133. With some misgivings, Table 3.4 puts forward dates and possible motives for expansion for the families of Niger-Congo. The dates are arranged in order of antiquity, not in the hypothetical order suggested by the genetic tree, and, in many cases the two are strongly at variance. There is no necessary correlation between the age of a family estimated from its apparent internal diversity and the date at which it appears to split from the Niger-Congo tree.. .
. . .

MANDE 6000 BP Mande languages have spread from north to south with scattered outliers in Nigeria and Cote d’Ivoire. Mande shares the common Niger-Congo roots for cow and goat, and perhaps the Proto-Mande were an isolated livestock-keeping population at the edge of the desert, which expanded southward as habitat change created potential space for livestock keeping. Reconstructions implying cropping are not present in the protolanguage.

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Christopher Ehret. 2000 “Language and History,” in B. Heine and D. Nurse, eds. African Languages.An Introduction pp. 274-297 Canbridge: Cambridge University Press

quote:

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p. 294 A second, but still early and important stage in Niger-Congo history was the proto-Mande-Congo era. At this period, or so it appears from the evidence of word histories, the cultivation of the guinea yam and possibly other crops, such as the oil palm, began among at least the peoples of the Atlantic and Ijo-Congo branches of the family (Williamson 1993 proposes the early words for these crops; Greenberg 1964 identifies an Atlantic and Ijo-Congo verb for cultivation, •-lim-). Between possibly about 8000 and 6000 BC, these people spread across the woodland savannahs of West Africa, the natural environment of the Guinea yams. At that time, woodland savannah environments extended several hundred kilometers farther north into the Sudan belt than they do today.

---

The Blench hypothesis of the Mande living in the Sahara and moving southward does not conflict with my theory of a Saharan origin for the Mande speakers.

The term lim, is not the Mande term to cultivate.


In al-Imfeld, Decolonizing: African Agricultural History (2007) , claims that in relation to African agriculture the cultivation of yam began 10,000 years ago and rice cultivation in Africa by 6000 BC.

The major cultivated crop of the Mande speakers was millet not the yam. The term for cultivation among the Mande was not lim is Proto-Paleo-Afro-Dravidian *be . Millet was probably cultivated over 5000 years ago.

The earliest sites for the cultivation of millet lie in the Sahara . Here the earliest archaeological evidence has been found for African millets.

The major grain exploited by Saharan populations was rice ,the yam and pennisetum. McIntosh and McIntosh (1988) has shown that the principal domesticate in the southern Sahara was bulrush millet (pennisetum). Millet impressions have been found on Mande ceramics from both Karkarchinkat in the Tilemsi Valley of Mali, and Dar Tichitt in Mauritania between 4000 and 3000 BP. (McIntosh & McIntosh 1983a,1988; Winters 1986b; Andah 1981)

The linguistic evidence indicates that the Mande and Dravidian speakers formerly lived in intimate contact , in the Sahara. The speakers of these languages share many terms for agriculture.

Given the archaeological evidence for millets in the Sahara, leads to the corollary theory that if the Dravidians originated in Africa, they would share analogous terms for millet with African groups that formerly lived in the Sahara.

One of the principal groups to use millet in Africa are the Northern Mande speaking people . The Mande speaking people belong to the Niger-Congo group. Most linguist agree that the Mande speakers were the first Niger-Congo group to leave the original Nile Valley and Saharan highland primary homeands of the Niger-Congo speakers.

The Northern Mande speakers are divided into the Soninke and Malinke-Bambara groups. Holl (1985,1989) believes that the founders of the Dhar Tichitt site where millet was cultivated in the 2nd millenium B.C., were northern Mande speakers. To test this theory we will compare Dravidian and Black African agricultural terms, especially Northern Mande. The linguistic evidence suggest that the Proto-Dravidians belonged to an ancient sedentary culture which existed in Saharan Africa. We will call the ancestor of this group Paleo-Dravido-Africans.

The Dravidian terms for millet are listed in the Dravidian Etymological Dictionary at 2359, 4300 and 2671. A cursory review of the linguistic examples provided below from the Dravidian (Kol, Tamil ,Kannanda, & Malayalam ) , Mande and Wolof languages show a close relationship between these language. These terms are outlined below:

code:

---

Kol                sonna       ---             ---       ----
Wolof (AF.)        suna        ---            ----       ---
Mande (AF)         suna      bara, baga     de-n, doro  koro
Tamil            connal     varaga           tinai      kural
Malayalam        colam      varaku           tina        ---
Kannanda          ---     baraga, baragu     tene    korale,korle
                 *sona      *baraga          *tenä     *kora 

---

Below we will compare other Dravidian and African agricultural terms. These terms come from the Mande languages (Malinke, Kpelle, Bambara, Azer, Soninke), West Atlantic (Wolof, Fulani), Afro-Asiatic (Oromo, Galla), Somali, Nubian and the ancient Egyptian.
The Paleo-Dravido-Africans came from a sedentary culture that domesticated cattle and grew numerous crops including wheat and millet. The Egyptian term for cultivation is Ø b j(w) #. Egyptian Ø b j(w) # corresponds to many African terms for cultivation:

code:

---

Galla    baji  'cultivated field'
Tulu (Dravidian language)    bey, benni
Nubian    ba, bat  'hoe up ground'
Malinke    be
Somali     beer
Wolof       mbey, ambey, bey
Egyptian     b j(w)
Sumerian    buru, bur  'to root up'

---

These terms for cultivate suggest that the Paleo-African term for cultivate was *be.

The Egyptian term for grain is 0 sa #. This corresponds to many African terms for seed,grain:

code:

---

Galla          senyi
Malinke        se , si
Sumerian       se
Egyptian       sen 'granary'
Kannanda        cigur

Bozo           sii
Bambara        sii
Daba           sisin
Somali         sinni
Loma           sii
Susu           sansi
Oromo          sanyi
Dime           siimu
Egyptian        ssr 'corn'
   id.          ssn  'lotus plant'
   id.          sm   'herb, plant'
   id.          isw  'weeds'

---

The identification of a s>Ø/#_________e pattern for 'seed,grain' in the above languages suggest that these groups were familiar with seeds at the time they separated into distinct Supersets. The fact that Sumerian Ø se # and Egyptian Ø sen #, and Malinke
Ø se # are all separated both in time and geographical area highlight the early use of seeds * se , by Paleo-Dravido-Africans.

code:

---

	Rice
Soninke         dugo
Vai             ko'o
Manding         malo
Dravidian       mala-kurula
Mende            molo, konu
Kpelle           moloy
Boko             mole
Bisa             muhi
Busa             mole
Sa               mela
Bambara          kini

	Yam
Bozo              ku, kunan
Vai               jambi
Malinke            ku
Dravidian          kui, kuna, ku
Bambara            ku

---

It would appear that all the Proto-Dravidians were familiar with the cultivation of rice, yams and millet. This is not surprising because Weber (1998) made it clear that millet cultivation in ancient South Asia was associated with rice cultivation.

The linguistic evidence clearly show similarities in the Afican and Dravidian terms for plant domesticates. This suggest that these groups early adopted agriculture and made animal domestication secondary to the cultivation of millet, rice and yams. The analogy for the Malinke-Bambara and Dravidians terms for rice, millet and yams suggest a very early date for the domestication of these crops.

In summary, population pressure in the Sahara during a period of increasing hyperaridity forced hunter/gather/fisher Proto-Dravido-African people to first domesticate animals and then crops. The linguistic evidence discussed above indicate that the Proto-Dravido-African people migrated out of the Nile Valley to West African and Harappan sites with millet, yam and rice already recognized as principal domesticated crop.

This comparison of Mande agricultural terms make it clear, that just like the Egyptian term for dog uher , the speakers of these languages share the terms for cultivate, and seed. It also shows that before the Dravidians separated from the Mande speakers these groups were cultivating also cultivating rice and the yam.


The Niger-Congo speakers which include the Fula, Mande and Wolof originated in the Nile Valley—not West Africa. They migrated from East to West. The oral traditions of these people make it clear that when they arrived on the scene pygmy people were already settled in many areas they occupied.

quote:

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Wm. E. Welmers. 1971 "Niger-Congo, Mande" in T.A. Sebeok, et al. eds. Linguistics in sub-Saharan Africa (Current Trends in Linguistics, 7), pp. 113-140 The Hague: Mouton

P 119-120. By way of conclusion to this general overview of the Mande languages, a a bit of judicious speculation about Mande origins and migrations may not be out of order. It has already been stated that the Mande languages clearly represent the earliest offshoot from the parent Niger-Congo stock—not counting Kordofanian, which Greenberg considers parallel to all of the Niger-Congo, forming a Niger-Kordofanian macrofamily. An original Niger-Congo homeland in the general vicinity of the upper Nile valley is probably as good a hypothesis as any. From such a homeland, a westward Mande migration may have begun well over 5000 years ago. Perhaps the earliest division within this group resulted in the isolation of what is now represented only by Bobo-fing. Somewhat later— perhaps 3500 to 4500 years ago, and possibly from a new homeland around northern Dahomey [now Benin]— the ancestors of the present Northern-western Mande peoples began pushing farther west, ultimately reaching their present homeland in the grasslands and forests of West Africa. This was followed by a gradual spread of the Southern-Eastern division, culminating perhaps 2000 years ago in the separation of its to branches and the ultimate movement of Southern Mande peoples southeast and westward until Mano and Kpelle, long separated, became once more contiguous.

This reconstruction of Mande prehistory receives striking support from a most unexpected source— dogs. Back in the presumed Niger-Congo homeland—the southern Sudan and northern Uganda of modern times— is found the unique barkless, worried-looking, fleet Basenji, who also appears on ancient Egyptian monuments with the typical bee that compensates for his natural silence. Among the Kpelle and Loma people of Liberia, a breed of dogs is found which is so closely identical to the Basenji that it now recognized as the ‘Liberian Basenji’. In all of the Sudan belt of Africa from the Nile Valley to the Liberian forest, the dogs are somewhat similar in appearance, but very obviously mongrelized. It would appear that the Mande peoples originally took their Basenji dogs with them in their westward migration. At that time, the present Sahara desert was capable of sustaining a substantial population, and was presumably the homeland of the Nilo-Saharan peoples. The early Mande moment thus may have been through uninhabited land, and their dogs were spared any cross-breeding. The farthest westward Mande movement—that of the Southwestern group—was virtually complete before contact with dogs of other breeds. With the gradual drying of the Sahara and the southward movement of the Nilo-Saharan peoples, the remaining Mande peoples, as well as later waves of Niger-Congo migration made contact with other people and other dogs. The present canine population of the Liberian forests thus reflects the very early departure of the Mande peoples from their original homeland, and the subsequent early movement of the Southwestern group towards its present location, without contacting substantial number of unrelated people or dogs.

---

Liberian Basenji


Egyptian Basenji
Egyptian Basenji Dog Hieroglyph



.
Trade might account for the presence of Basenji dogs in both places. But, from the sense of the article, Welmers claims that speakers of other African languages surrounding the Kpelle have different dogs.


The term for Basenji may be uher. In Egyptian uher also means house, so some people claim the Egyptians placed a dog size after uher to denote the term dog.


web page

Niger-Congo hunters probably early domesticated the dog. Hunters used dogs to catch their prey .

Egyptian Hieroglyph



.


Egyptian term for dog corresponds to many African, and Dravidian terms for dog:

• Egptian uher
  
  Azer wulle
  
  Bozo kongoro
  
  Guro bere
  
  Vai wuru, ulu
  
  Bo[Bambara] -ulu
  
  Wassulunka wulu
  
  Konyanka wulu
  
  Malinke wuli, wuru, wulu
  
  Dravidian ori

.


The above data indicates that there is contrast between Paleo-Afican l =/= r. The Egyptian Ø uher # , Azer Ø wulle # and Manding Ø wuru # suggest that the r > l in Paleo-African.

There is also vowel alternation in the terms for dog o =/= u. The predominance of the vowel /u/ in the terms for dog, make it clear that o<u. This evidence suggest that there are two Paleo-African terms for dog: Paleo-African [PA] *uru and *oro.

Futhermore, this comparison of the term for dog within and among Niger-Congo languages and Egyptian supports Welmers view that the dog was domesticated in the Nile Valley before the speakers of these languages separated, and migrated to other parts of Africa.


The key to science, is that control is used to test the cause of a hypothesis, layman rarely use control, they accept a hypothesis gased on belief and biases.

Finally scientists test relationships to determine their validity. Science is concerned only with things that can be tested and observed.

Let's look at Welmers hypothesis. All research begins with a research question.

Research Question: Where did the Niger Congo speakers originate?

Null hypothesis: There is no relationship between the present location of the Niger-Congo speakers and the original homeland of the speakers of these languages.

Result: The Niger Congo speakers probably originated in the Nile Valley because the Kpelle , who speak a Mande language, have the basanji dog, which was the domesticated dog of the Egyptians and other Nile Valley people.

The hypothesis was further supported by a most interesting finding, that was that the basanji dog is not the hunting dog of other ethnic groups inhabiting areas between the Nile Valley and where the Mande speakers live.

Welmers hypothesis was confirmed. To disconfirm this hypothesis you have to present evidence that nullifies the findings of Welmers.

To test Welmers hypothesis, I compared the Egyptian term for dog and the Mande term for dog. The linguistic evidence supports the physical evidence discussed by Welmer.

Wm. E. Welmers identified the Niger Congo home land. Welmers in "Niger-Congo Mande", Current trends in Linguistics 7 (1971), pp.113-140,explained that the Niger-Congo homeland was in the vicinity of the upper Nile valley (p.119). He believes that the Westward migration began 5000 years ago.

In support of this theory he discusses the dogs of the Niger-Congo speakers. This is the unique barkless Basenji dogs which live in the Sudan and Uganda today, but were formerly recorded on Egyptian monuments (Wlemers,p.119). According to Welmers the Basanji, is related to the Liberian Basenji breed of the Kpelle and Loma people of Liberia. Welmers believes that the Mande took these dogs with them on their migration westward. The Kpelle and Loma speak Mande languages.

He believes that the region was unoccupied when the Mande migrated westward. In support of this theory Welmers' notes that the Liberian Banji dogs ,show no cross-breeding with dogs kept by other African groups in West Africa, and point to the early introduction of this cannine population after the separation of the Mande from the other Niger-Congo speakers in the original upper Nile homeland for this population. As a result, he claims that the Mande migration occured before these groups entered the region.

Linguistic research make it clear that there is a close relationship between the Niger-Congo Superlanguage family and the Nilo-Saharan languages spoken in the Sudan. Heine and Nurse (Eds.), in African languages: An introduction , Cambridge University Press, 2000, discuss the Nilo-Saharan connection. They note that when Westerman (1911) described African languages he used lexical evidence to include the Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo languages into a Superfamily he called "Sudanic" (p.16). Using Morphological and lexical similarities Gregerson (1972) indicated that these languages belonged to a macrophylum he named " Kongo-Saharan" (p.16). Research by Blench (1995) reached the same conclusion, and he named this Superfamily: "Niger-Saharan".

Genetic evidence supports the upper Nile origin for the Niger-Congo speakers. Rosa et al, in Y-Chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau (2007), noted that while most Mande & Balanta carry the E3a-M2 gene, there are a number of Felupe-Djola, Papel, Fulbe and Mande carry the M3b*-M35 gene the same as many people in the Sudan.

In conclusion, Welmers proposed an upper Nile (Sudan-Uganda) homeland for the Niger-Congo speakers. He claims that they remained intact until 5000 years ago. This view is supported by linguistic and genetics evidence. The linguistic evidence makes it clear that the Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo languages are related. The genetic evidence indicates that Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo speakers carry the M3b*-M35 gene, an indicator for the earlier presence of speakers of this language in an original Nile Valley homeland.

In summary Welmer’s makes two key points: 1) the Mande migration began around 3000BC out of the Nile Valley; and 2)Welmers proposed migration from Benin around 1500BC, 1500 years after the initial migration of the Mande from the Nile Valley.

.

---

• TABLE 1
  _________________________________________________________________
  Language Chief city,village black/burnt
  Dravidian cira,ca uru kam
  Elamite salu
  Sumerian sar ur
  Manding sa furu kami
  'Charcoal'
  Nubian sirgi amr uru-me
  Semitic sarr ham
  Ubaid sar ur
  Egyptian sr mer kemit
  'blackland'
  Hausa sarki birni
  Paleo-African *Sar *uru *kam
  
  _________________________________________________________________

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Wait a minute. My position is that the first
cultural-Archaeological evidence for Fulani
traits appear in Late Stone Age Sahara at
Tassili n'Ajjer in southeast Algeria.

You've favored a 12th dynasty Egyptian origin for
Fulani based on I don't know what.

One people can't originate in two different places
at two different times. So which is it? Is it the
Sahara, and precisely when and where in the Sahara,
or is it Dynastic Egypt? Please choose one or the other.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
This statement is what I have been claiming all along that these people came from the Sahara.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
I maintain they originated in the highland regions of the Sahara ... The first evidence of the Fula suggest that they were living in Tassili.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Then we agree the Egyptian Origin of the Fulani is false.
Sorry I didn't distinguish origin and residence in your
stance.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
I maintain they originated in the highland regions of the Sahara ... The first evidence of the Fula suggest that they were living in Tassili.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

I agree that the Fulani originated in the Sahara.

---

quote:

---

But as supported by Fula oral traditions discussed by Lam, there is a considerable section of Fula, who presently live in West Africa, who claim they came from Egypt before settling in West Africa.

Since these Fula claim descent from Egyptian nationals that left Egypt during the Roman period ,and recognize this as their most recent homeland I guess this group would see Egypt as the place where they originated. This view is supported by the fact that the Fula is related to Egyptian spoken during 12th Dynasty, and we do have a major migration of Egyptians out of Egypt during the Roman period.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:

Clyde,

Come on here and make your 'discredited" self useful for a moment: Can I get an *elaborate* grammatical and syntax correspondence between Fula and Ancient Egyptian?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:
... .. .. .. ...

---

quote:

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Originally posted by some heritageless sap:

....

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quote:

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Originally posted by some heritageless spook:

Wally, completely ignore "Explorer" since I've come to the conclusion that this is the racist idiot "Yazid" I've seen on older threads. Exact same racist, hatred of AA themes. Even the same "heritageless" ignorance.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Gaul:
Once again, there is NO EVIDENCE that the rock paintings in Tassili pre-dates those found in other areas of the Nile Valley and conitinuing to the Red Sea.

---

 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Horse manure! You really need to educate yourself
on both the Tassili n'Ajjer rock art in general and then
those pieces Ba associated with current Bororo Fulani
cultural traits before you further discredit yourself.

quote:

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Among the paintings of the Tassili, Amadou Hampaté-Ba recognized many
of the Fula rituals, including the Kumen initiation into the mysteries of
pastoralism (silatigi). One of the scenes at Ti-n-Tazarift depicts the lotori,
or annual lustering of cattle. There, painted on the side of a scene of people
bathing cattle and passing them through a U-shaped brush gate, is a large
abstract design representing the kurgal kaggu -— a ritual veil, an important
symbol to the Fula herders, the Kaggu (LeQuellec 1992:60-6). Shaped like a
hand, it invokes the ancestral Kikala, with the four fingers, each painted in
one of the colors of the cattle (yellow, red, black, white), representing the
tribal clans (Dyal, Ba, So,and Bari). The thumb represents their vassals
(Dieterlen 1965, at 325).

---

This is one of the prime Saharan painting's Ba used.



The "calf rope" used to divide a pastoral Fulani encampment is
very noticeable. Evidence like this shows that Fulani have local
antecedence that far outweighs any distant infusions or accretions.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=005083#000031

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Frenchman:
... the Fulani "calf-rope" is not seen in the Tassili paintings.

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quote:

---

While their recent history is relatively clearly understood, their more distant past is not clear, and there is no archaeology to elucidate their existence. Intriguing suggestions of a Saharan past have been raised regarding percieved similarities between depictions in the rock art of the Tassili n'Ajjer and Fulani ceremonies. Figure 4.21 from Uan Derbaouan has been suggested as representing the Fulani latoori cleansing ritual (Hampate Ba and Dieterlen (1966:150). Another example from this period, also from the Tassili n'Ajjer, shows heads of cattle around a sun motif (fig. 5.2) that Hampate Ba and Dieterlen (1966:149) interpret as one of the seven suns where initiates receive training from the god, Koumen, during " claireres ," or stages of initiation, on their path to ritual elder status.

Such interpretations are not without their critics. There is nothing within Fulani origin myths to support these contentions. On the one hand, Le Quellec (2002) maintains that there are none of the recognized Fulani symbols, such as the important Fulani calf rope symbol , while on the other hand, there is a long time between execution of the painting, perhaps some 5,000 years ago, and the present (Vansina 1984). To Le Quellec (2002:149), the ceremonial attributions are too exact, and some of the arguments for equating the paintings with the Fulani need not be specific to just the Fulani but rest on a "level of generalities common to all pastoral cultures."

However, there are too many other such coincidences in the paintings with modern pastoral Fulani society, such as the layout of the camp from Tissoukai (Lhote 1976), where male and female domains are clearly seperated by the calf rope, and the kaakul display of containers (Kuper 1978: 426: fig. 11), not to at least consider the possibility that we are dealing with similar cultural patterns. It is possible that the Tassili paintings depict a formative West African pastoral society whose best fit today may be the Fulani, but the detail that Hampate Ba and Dieterlen claimed to see in the paintings is perhaps what they wanted to see to support their thesis. Time depth, however, should not be used as an argument against the survival of deep meaning in any society. We know that the history of the Judeo-Christian Bible goes back several thousand years, and only part of this history was maintianed in written form.

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quote:

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The heads are always very carefully drawn; they are shown longer than in real life and are treated with an artistic sense that occasionally seems artificial, particularly with regard to the treatment of the horns. Sometimes these last are curiously deformed both in the engravings and in the paintings; in the Tibesti massif alone a hundred such cases of deformity have been noted, while they are much rarer in Ennedi and Tassili n'Ajjer and exceptional in the Ahaggar (Huard 1959). Now this cultural trait is limited neither to the Sahara nor to the Neolithic period. Indeed, it seems to have originated among the people of Nubia where it continued througout the Egyptian period; thus from tribute from the Nubians is often shown as consisting of fattened cattle with horns variously deformed and carved. In our own day among the Nuer and Dinka of the Nile and even among the Souk and Nandi of Lake Victoria, such age old practices still have not died out.

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quote:

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... there are too many other such coincidences in the paintings with modern pastoral Fulani society, ...
It is possible that the Tassili paintings depict a formative West African pastoral society whose best fit today may be the Fulani, but the detail that Hampate Ba and Dieterlen claimed to see in the paintings is perhaps what they wanted to see to support their thesis.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by The Gaul:
... I have full belief of what West African and Fulnai scholars have to say, ...
. . . .
a FULANI scholar ... knows the people of his area and does his work truly as a scholar, not to be undermined by a non-African foreigner who would think they know these people better ...

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Wally:

quote:

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Originally posted by The Explorer:
... .. .. .. ...

---

It is apparent that this forum is above your head. If you wish to whine childishly or to present non- factual information, please post on Ancient Egypt.

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quote:

---

alTakruri wrote to Clyde Winters:
...You've favored a 12th dynasty Egyptian origin for
Fulani based on I don't know what.
One people can't originate in two different places
at two different times. So which is it? Is it the
Sahara, and precisely when and where in the Sahara,
or is it Dynastic Egypt? Please choose one or the other.

---

"Naw, Mahn, you no git way wid dat semantic treek" (a little African creole...)

Origin -birth, descent, extraction, family tree, genealogy, line, lineage, parentage...

- People certainly can and do originate in two, and usually in many places:

a) my birth origin is Louisiana

b) my descent is African

c) my lineage is from many places in Africa, a smidgen of European, and perhaps a dash of Native American...

--as Dr. Winters has so accurately pointed out, even the Ancient Egyptians did not originate in Egypt; yet they are from Egypt - you certainly understand this process, and for you to maintain that the Fulani, who have originated in more places in Africa than perhaps any other African ethnic group, did not spend some time 'originating' in Ancient Egypt, boggles the mind. The Fulani of the Sudan are from Sudan, that is thus, their place of origin. The Original Place of Origin of everybody on the planet is the Great Lakes Regions of East Africa. Obviously, we're not talking about this Original Place of Origin...
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 

quote:

---

or·i·gin (ôr-jn, r-)
n.
1. The point at which something comes into existence or from which it derives or is derived.
2. Ancestry: "We cannot escape our origins, however hard we try" (James Baldwin).
3. The fact of originating; rise or derivation: The rumor had its origin in an impulsive remark.


Synonyms: origin, inception, source, root

---

Well then, boggle the mind I'll do.
The Fulani did not originate in 12 dyn AE.
The topic is Fulani not the word origin.
For anything not mestice, there is only one point of origin.


The first set of Fulani cultural traits were from SE Algeria
You have not shown Fulani cultural traits older than that or from elsewhere.

The self-named Fulbe ethny was first known in Mauritania/Senegal c. 1kya.

No one can show a people named Fulani older than that from elsewhere.

All rhetoric aside
* Fulani as Fulani are a West African originating people
* Fulani-like traits are first noted in West Africa
* Fulani do not appear in Egypt until well after Islam.

But please produce records from 12th dynasty Egypt
of a wholescale migration westward of people bearing
Fulani cultural traits. This is the only thing that will
prove Fulani were in 12th dynasty Egypt. You know,
of course, they could not have originated in 12th
dynasty Egypt when the first record of anything
like Fulani debuts 1800 miles away and roughly
3000 years earlier.
 

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Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 
alTakruri, you actually wrote : "Origin, The point at which something comes into existence or from which it derives or is derived."
Which is exactly what I wrote!
Origin -birth, descent, extraction, family tree, genealogy, line, lineage, parentage...
"The point at which something comes into existence" - like birth
"or from which it derives or is derived." - like genealogy, line, lineage, parentage,

"The Topic", you wrote, "is Fulani not the word origin."
That maybe your topic, but my Topic, the Topic of this thread is "The Egyptian Origin of the Fulani."

You also said that "The first set of Fulani cultural traits were from SE Algeria" only to soon thereafter contradict yourself "Fulani as Fulani are a West African originating people" which means that you either believe that SE Algeria is in West Africa or that the Fulani did not leave any cultural traits in their West African land of origin.

Then you repeat the impossible request to "produce records from 12th dynasty Egypt
of a wholescale migration westward of people bearing Fulani cultural traits." When you know that these records only exist in the evidence that we have presented to you, actual written records of migrations from ancient Egypt can be reduced to the biblical myths of Moses leading the Hebrews out, and the historical evidence of the defections of Egyptians over to the Kushites; you know this. In fact, though more abundant with the Fulani, the records of the Colchians migration from Egypt were not written, or if
so not discovered or revealed.
We know that the Zulu, the Xhosa, the Mandebele peoples did not originate in South Africa, as a matter of fact, they arrived in southern Africa just alittle bit before the Dutch and the British - The Germans did not originate in Germany but from the regions of the Huns, the Swedes, Norwegian, and places south - the Filipinos did not originate in the Philippines but from islands far to the west, even west of Malaysia...The Fulani, like their friends nearby, the Wolof, might have lived in the west African regions for quite sometime, but it certainly wasn't their original homeland, anymore than Japan was for the Japanese who came and displaced the European looking Ainu folks.
It's the way of the world. The Fulani are definitely a part of this world...
 

---

Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
 
^ AlTakruri is correct.

Wally you are very bright so why do you continue this disingenuous argument?

Here is a classic example of a strawman.......

You also said that "The first set of Fulani cultural traits were from SE Algeria" only to soon thereafter contradict yourself "Fulani as Fulani are a West African originating people" which means that you either believe that SE Algeria is in West Africa or that the Fulani did not leave any cultural traits in their West African land of origin.


If we are suckers we can debate whether SE Algeria is West Africa.

But if we are not - we want to know how you can claim Fulani originate in Dynastic Egypt if you acknolwedge they originate in the Neolithic Algerian Sahara?

These are mutually exclusive claims kept 'alive' [well not really, but you keep arguing them] by sophistry and 'bad' dancing.

Of course I challenged you for months earlier while you ran from this request to clarify your false claims, so it's funny to see you back it again.....but perhaps not surprising.

When the cat's away......

re:

You repeat the impossible request to "produce records from 12th dynasty Egypt
of a wholescale migration westward of people bearing Fulani cultural traits."

^ And why is this impossible?


When you know that these records only exist in the evidence that we have presented to you,

^ This is a tautology. If I ask you for physical evidence of UFO's - would you respond by sayin the request is 'impossible', because I know the evidence only exists in 'doubtful claims' and 'bogus photographs'?

This is essentially and admission that you have no hard evidence.

We know that the Zulu, the Xhosa, the Mandebele peoples did not originate in South Africa, as a matter of fact .....

^ Non sequitur, does not prove that Fulani originated in Egypt.

One of the reasons I got bored with Egyptsearch is that 'arguments' seldom rise above regurgitation of elementary logical fallacy.

This is very disappointing.
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

quote:

---

or·i·gin (ôr-jn, r-)
n.
1. The point at which something comes into existence or from which it derives or is derived.
2. Ancestry: "We cannot escape our origins, however hard we try" (James Baldwin).
3. The fact of originating; rise or derivation: The rumor had its origin in an impulsive remark.


Synonyms: origin, inception, source, root

---

Well then, boggle the mind I'll do.
The Fulani did not originate in 12 dyn AE.
The topic is Fulani not the word origin.
For anything not mestice, there is only one point of origin.


The first set of Fulani cultural traits were from SE Algeria
You have not shown Fulani cultural traits older than that or from elsewhere.

The self-named Fulbe ethny was first known in Mauritania/Senegal c. 1kya.

No one can show a people named Fulani older than that from elsewhere.

All rhetoric aside
* Fulani as Fulani are a West African originating people
* Fulani-like traits are first noted in West Africa
* Fulani do not appear in Egypt until well after Islam.

But please produce records from 12th dynasty Egypt
of a wholescale migration westward of people bearing
Fulani cultural traits. This is the only thing that will
prove Fulani were in 12th dynasty Egypt. You know,
of course, they could not have originated in 12th
dynasty Egypt when the first record of anything
like Fulani debuts 1800 miles away and roughly
3000 years earlier.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Dr. Winters

Re-examine the thread. Somebody here did make such claim.

Homburger, on the otherhand, denies Fulfulde as
12th dynasty AEL by the very passage you presented
from a seondary source.

---

It was Alain Anselin. Yet he goes on to make it clear that the Egyptians and Fula were related. He also adds the Dravidians to the mix.

.
 

---

Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
rasol

Welcome Back. The board really missed your intelligent posts.

Peace
 

---

Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 
Dr. Winters,
As you no doubt have witnessed in this thread is that we are up against a dogma, not the same dogma as put out by the looneys who post here, this is dogma with intelligence, but dogma none the less. The Dogma is this: Africans might have migrated from any other place in Africa or have originated any where else in Africa except Ancient Egypt or the Nile Valley! I am surprised that my buddy Djehuti, who buys this same dogma has not chimed in; We; me, - The Gaul, You, and others here have presented documents to support our case; linguistic evidence, cultural evidence, Griot historical evidence, the works of scholars, only to be called 'disingeneous' - a euphemism for 'a lier' despite:

a) The names of several African ethnic groups are identical to Ancient Egyptian gods, or have a ring of Nobility or status within Ancient Egypt - The Akan, The Fanti, The BaTutsi, The Yoruba, the Hausa...

b) We also have shown that a Wolof could understand an Ancient Egyptian speaker in the same manner that a Portuguese can understand an Italian speaker, perhaps to an even greater degree...

c) We have shown a close relationship between Fulani, Wolof, and Yoruba, and the Mdu Ntr, which is genetic...

d) BaTutsi Griot legends tells us of their origins in the North, Fulani tell us directly of their sojourn in Ancient Egypt - alTakruri wants to see their emigration papers - The late Yoruba musician Fela was so taken with the knowledge of his ancestors emigration from the Nile Valley, he named his band Egypt87!

e) It blew my mind when a Yoruba friend, when I asked him an obscure Mdu Ntr word "Noo" ; to erase, wipe - how do you say erase, wipe in Yoruba, and after some thought replied to me "Noo..."

f) The capital of Zimbabwe, named after that great African civilization is "Harare" - "Harare" means "flower" in the Mdu Ntr, a good name, like Addis Ababa (New Flower), for a city...

G) THE MANGBETU ARE A PEOPLE OF THE DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF THE CONGO, WHOSE HEAD SHAPES ARE IDENTICAL TO THOSE OF THE AMARNA ROYALTY OF THE EIGHTEENTH DYNASTY - MANGBETU IS A MEMBER OF "THE NILO-SAHARAN" LANGUAGE GROUP.
WELL COMPARE THIS TO MENGABU, A GOD IN MDU NTR...



H) MUNTU, OR "HUMAN/MEN" IN BANTU, IS A CENTER POINT IN BANTU PHILOSOPHY AND WISDOM; HE WAS AN EGYPTIAN GOD, SUCCEEDED BY AMON, AND WAS THE WHITE BULL GOD WITH A BLACK FACE - ALSO AN EXELLENT BOOK: MUNTU: AFRICAN CULTURE AND THE WESTERN WORLD BY JANHEINZ JAHN AND MARJORIE GRENE


...IT IS ONE THING TO BE INITIALLY SURPRISED, GIVEN THE CIRCUMSTANCES' TO DISCOVER THAT THE ANCIENT EGYPTIANS WERE BLACKS, YOU WANTED TO TELL THE WORLD, BUT SUCH A DISCOVERY LEAD TO FURTHER DISCOVERY: THAT AT ONE POINT IN TIME AFRICANS FORMED A CLUSTER IN THE NILE VALLEY AND THAT KEMET WAS INDEED - A PAN-AFRICAN CIVILIZATION, AND AS WE CONTINUE OUR SEARCH, WE CONTINUE FINDING FURTHER EVIDENCE TO SUBSTANTIATE THIS REALITY...A FAR, FAR CRY FROM THE DOGMA...
 

---

Posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian (Member # 10893) on :
 
I wasn't going to come back either, but these postings are bothering me.

http://www.muslimsinamerica.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=16&Itemid=28

I was scanning quickly through books on African American slaves and saw that one of our ancestors claimed Ancient Egyptian origin.

He was a Foulah namd Ben Ali and he wrote/said that the Foulah were descended from the Hyksos/Shepard Kings. Fullah was spoken a lot in the Gullah regions and there were two Ben Alis.

Ben Ali Muhammad wrote the longest Slave Narrative of any slave.


In 1803, Bilali (Ben Ali) Muhammad and his family arrived in Georgia on Sapelo Island. Bilali Muhammad was a Fula from Timbo Futa-Jallon in present day Guinea-Conakry...... All his daughters but Bint could speak English, French, Fula, Gullah, and Arabic. Bilali was well educated in Islamic law. While enslaved Bilali became the community leader and Imam of at least 80 men. During the War of 1812 Bilali told his slave master that he had 80 men of the true faith to help defend the land against the British.

Bilali was known for regularly wearing his fez, a long coat, praying five times a day facing the east, fasting during the month of Ramadan, and celebrating the two holidays when they came. Bilali was buried with his Qur’an and prayer rug. In 1829 Bilali wrote a 13 page hand written Arabic text book called a "Risala"about some of the laws of Islam and Islamic living. The book is known as Ben Alis"Diary, housed today at the University of Georgia in Athens.

Bilali "Ben Ali" was the leader of one of America’s earliest known Muslim communities. It’s documented that in 1812 there were at least eighty Muslims living on a plantation controlled by Ben Ali from 1806 to the late 1830s.

In 1803, Salih Bilali (Old Tom) came from a powerful family of Massina in the Temourah district in West Africa. He was captured around 1782, sold in the Bahamas at first and then in the US around 1803. He lived from 1770-1846. He was sold to John Couper in the Bahamas and brought to St. Simon Island, Ga. From 1816-1840 Salih Bilali was the trusted head slave manager of more than 450 slaves of John and Hamilton Couper. It was reported by his master’s son, that while Salih was on his death bed that his last words were "Allah is God and Mohammed his Prophet."

One of Salih’s descendants was Robert Abbott, founder of the "Chicago Defender, "one of the nation’s first black newspapers. Another one of Salih’s descendants was named after him Bilali Sullivan who was known as (Ben Sullivan). Bilali (Ben) Sullivan purchased some of the original property from the plantation in 1914. He was interviewed about his life in the 1930s.

There are two well known Muslim communities of the Gullah Islands of St. Simon and Sapelo off the coast of Georgia. Bilali (Ben Ali) Mahomet and Salih Bilali ruled as plantation mangers and Muslim leaders. In America’s history there were Gullah Wars. Some of them are known as the Seminole Indians wars. The African-American language Gullah was initially developed by the enslaved African Muslims and non-Muslims in Senegal to help communicate among the various African tribes.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyksos
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 


Inyotef son of Ka

Wm. E. Welmers identified the Niger Congo home land. Welmers in "Niger-Congo Mande", Current trends in Linguistics 7 (1971), pp.113-140,explained that the Niger-Congo homeland was in the vicinity of the upper Nile valley (p.119). He believes that the Westward migration began 5000 years ago.

In support of this theory he discusses the dogs of the Niger-Congo speakers. This is the unique barkless Basenji dogs which live in the Sudan and Uganda today, but were formerly recorded on Egyptian monuments (Wlemers,p.119). According to Welmers the Basanji, is related to the Liberian Basenji breed of the Kpelle and Loma people of Liberia. Welmers believes that the Mande took these dogs with them on their migration westward. The Kpelle and Loma speak Mande languages.

He believes that the region was unoccupied when the Mande migrated westward. In support of this theory Welmers' notes that the Liberian Banji dogs ,show no cross-breeding with dogs kept by other African groups in West Africa, and point to the early introduction of this cannine population after the separation of the Mande from the other Niger-Congo speakers in the original upper Nile homeland for this population. As a result, he claims that the Mande migration occured before these groups entered the region.

Homburger made it clear that the Fula language was related to the Egyptians of the 12th Dynasty. This is interesting because we find that at this time new rulers came to power in Egypt from the South. This period is often called the Middle Kingdom.

Many of these “southerners” probably included many people who later settled West Africa. As noted earlier the marker for the spread of the Niger-Congo speakers is the basanji dog. The hieroglyphic for "dog," in fact, as evidenced on a stele from the Middle Kingdom of Egypt, derives from the basenji. In just a few strokes, the engraver captures the key characteristics: pricked ears, curled tail and graceful carriage.
It is probably no coincidence that the Basanji was see as the principal dog it probably represents the coming of power of the Niger-Congo speakers in ancient Egypt.

We know that in African societies great ancestors are made into “gods”. This is interesting because Wally has discovered a number of African ethnonyms among the gods of Egyptian nomes.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wally:
Ethnic names in the Mdu Ntr

Tutsi
Tutsi "the assembled gods"; "all of them (gods)"

Akan
Akan - the name of a god
Akaniu - a class of gods like Osiris

Fante
Fante - "he of the nose" - a name of Thoth - one of the 42 judges in the Hall of Osiris ("Shante" in modern Egyptian)

Hausa
Hosa - a singing god

Yoruba
Ourbaiu - great of souls, a title of gods or kings
Ouruba - Great God of soul

The permutations of names of such folks as the Wolof or the Fulani are so many, that it requires the effort of those who speak the language, to properly interpret the names -ie, Djoloff, Oulof, etc. and then look for their meanings in Budge's dictionary...

---

It would be quite interesting if these nomes were formerly prominent southern nomes who gained prominence once the Inyotefs came to power.

Between 2258 2052 BC civil war broke out among the nobles of Egypt. During this period of disunity there was much suffering in the land and many of the fine cultural developments of the Old Kingdoms were discarded or rarely practiced. This period of chaos is called the "First Intermediate Period". A person who lived during this hard time named Iperwer, wrote Great and humble say: "I wish I might die". Little children cry out: "I never should have been born". Also during this time Lower Egypt was invaded by Asian people who ruled there for a long time.


Inyotef I



During this period of decline it was the Southerners who made it possible for the raise of Egypt back into a world power. These Southerners were called "Inyotefs", they lived around a city in Upper Egypt called "Thebes". Inyotef I founded the 11th Dynasty and made Thebes his capital.Inyotef declared himself king c 2125-2112 BC.

Inyotef I opposed Ankhtify of Heracleopolitan who he defeated. It was Inyotef who consolidated power in the south. Inyotef II (Wahankh) also fought the Heracleopolitans. He loved dogs especially the basenji.

Egyptian Basenji
Egyptian Basenji Dog Hieroglyph



I believe that some of the southern nomes led by the Inyotefs were composed of people who later migrated to West Africa after the Romans came to power. The Thebians were closely united with the Nubians.

Inyotef I was the father Mentuhotep I. Several of the wives of Mentuhotep II were Nubians. Under Mentuhotep, the delta chiefs were defeated and Egypt was united again into one country.


Mentuhotep
Under the Amenemhet I, of the Xllth dynasty the capital was moved form Thebes to Lisht near Memphis. This dynasty and those thereafter are called the Middle Kingdom.

Amenemhet

MIDDLE KINGDOM


It took strong leadership for the Egyptians to re establish the greatness of Egypt and the establishment of safe and secure borders.

The rulers during the Middle Kingdom were mostly men from the military. They frequently made raids into foreign lands in search of booty. And for the first time in Egyptian history a permanent army was founded to protect Egypt and keep it strong.

Amon became the major God of the Egyptians during the Middle Period. Amon was recognized at this time as the God of all Gods. This Amon was also called Amma by the Proto Saharans.

It is interesting to note that the Mande and other West African people like the Dogon and Dravidians worshipped the god Amma.

The fact that Mande, Wolof and Fula are related to Egyptian is probably due to the fact that when the Inyotefs took over Egypt the ancestors of these groups live in southern Egypt/Upper Kush. This would explain 1) the relationship between the Fula and Egyptian language of the 12th Dynasty 2) the introduction of the worship of Aman to the Egyptians a god worshipped by many Niger-Congo speakers, 3) the presence of Egyptian gods for selected nomes bearing West African ethnonyms and 4)the love of the basenji dog by the 12th Dynasty Egyptians.

Egypt was indeed a Pan-African civilization


.
 

---

Posted by The Gaul (Member # 16198) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Now what was it The Frenchman said?

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Gaul:
... I have full belief of what West African and Fulnai scholars have to say, ...
. . . .
a FULANI scholar ... knows the people of his area and does his work truly as a scholar, not to be undermined by a non-African foreigner who would think they know these people better ...

---

Hmmm, I guess not, if that non-African foreigner is
named Smith and the Fulani scholar is the reknowned
West African Fulani Amadou Hampâté Bâ (Gd rest him).
Read his chapter 8 'The Living Tradition' starting
at pg62 in UNESCO's General History of Africa vol 1

---

quote:

---

Probably the best living example in North Africa of those originally nomadic peoples called Libyans are the modern "red" or pastoral Fulani (as opposed to settled Fulani) especially belonging to the area of Niger and Mali. Though they themselves are probably descendents of only one of the waves of Libyans from the east, they represent the black Berber or "hamitic" prototype which has existed in the Sahara for at least 5,000 years. At Jabbaren, the rock art shows cattle transporting the armature of huts which is a practice maintained by the Fulani and the head gear, clothing, and most typical physical characteristics of the human figures of the pastoral period are said to resemble the present day Fulani. They have, except their language, many habits of dress and accoutrements in common with Somali and Rendili and at times a strong familial resemblance to Cushitic peoples in general.

---

quote:

---

These nomads are one of the few tribes whose attire still resembles the long garments worn by the Lybians on ancient Egyptian tomb paintings after the New Empire. On these garments are the same designs that appear on C-group pottery and in Lybian tattoos. They also wear the same hats and peculiar Lybian side-lock and other coiffures shown in representations of ancient Lybians. They still practice the burning of the temples of infants which Herodotus mentions as being common to all Lybians. They often have a hairstyle in which they leave their hair long in the back like the ancient Lybians called Machlyes. Their women wear hair in a crest like the Cushitic speakers and the other Berbers of the southern Sahara which was said to be typical of Lybian women. This form of hairdress is shown often in ancient rock art now in the Sahara (It was apparently a very ancient practice and of totemic or religious significance: It is found among dark-skinned Yemeni women as well).

The pastoral Fulani are the only people in West Africa who milk their cattle and though they have been touched by modernization, rarely did they raise cattle for food. (The ancient Lybians did not eat the cow, considering them sacred). Like many traditional Cushitic and Nilo-Saharan peoples they tend to know each of the members of their herds by name and treat them with great affection and respect.

The Fulanis of Takrur were called Beni Warith or Waritan of the Beni Goddala or Jeddala in the Annales Regnum Mauritanie (Annals of the Mauritian Kings) and the annals of El Bekri. They were said to have once lived in the Mauritian Adrar. Goddala is the Arab pronunciation of the earlier Gaituli of the Roman historians. The Gaitules were the most populous of the Lybian tribes of Strabos time (1st Century AD) Josephus around the same time period claimed that they were the same as the Evalioi of Kush or the peoples of ancient Avalis (Hevila) - the Zeila of present day Somalia, which might explain why Fulani today resemble so much the people of that region.

The Goddala were considered one of the major Berber tribes by Arab writers and the brethren of the Anbiya (Anbat) and Sanhaja or Berbers of the Maghrib. Futhermore, when the Fulani were first encountered by European colonists, they spoke more than one language. One of these is connected to other West African languages. The other one, however, was considered different enough for the explorers to speculate that it was more related to dialects outside Africa.

---

quote:

---

There is a strong resemblance, according to a number of scholars, between the anceint prehistoric culture of the Southern Sahara and those of the ancient pastoral cultures in Nubia especially represented by the C-group population. One specialist in African archaeology, David Phillipson, has relatively recently stated that the affinities of C-group pottery strongly suggest a Saharan origin. However Gabriel Camps before this had shown that ancient Saharan industries possessed close affinity with the neolithic industries of the Nilotic area. The rock art of the Tassili region of Algeria and also in Ennedi of Chad and the Tibesti region, a pastoral period between the 4th and 3rd milleniums B.C., depicted cattle with horns deformed and with curious pendants typical of those of the Nubian, especially C-group area and further east. Fine sculptured cattle and other anthropomorphic cult figurines appear at the sites as they do east of the Nile. The men are often represented, according to camps, as men resembling the Fulani, slim with dark complexions and small pointed beards rather like those portrayed on rock art of the Arabian desert spoken by Anati. Ancient stone tumulus graves in the western part of the Southern Saharan are reminiscent of those built by C-group.

The territory of the Tamahou or Tjemehu has been suggested to have corresponded to the general area of the C-group populations who occupied the Lybian desert of Sudan and parts of Nubia. Both A. Arkell and Bates had come to conclude that the C-group Nubians represented a Lybian people. A. Arkell and Bates also felt the people of this culture (C-group) were the Lybians whom the Egyptians called Tjemehu, who are mentioned as early as the 6th dynasty inscription in a land to the south of Egypt. C-group pottery has been found in Gilf Kabir in Lybia and the Wadi Howar to the west of Nubia in the Lybian desert. C-group people were also affiliated with the kingdom of Kerma in Nubia.

---

quote:

---

Reynolds quotes Behrens and Arkell stating that [in the Tamahu] they identify a C-group culture which was "tall, slender, and obviously black..." What makes this so obvious and who is stating this, Behrens and Arkell, Reynolds, or a third party whom Reynolds is quoting? Her statements suggests she is quoting someone else who is quoting these sources and that they have not been thorough in their research. Etymology in this case is unwavering and inflexible and states most assuredly that the Egyptian word Tamahou means "the white people"!!! In regards to Reynolds comments on the Tehenou, it has been acknowledged by Egyptologists and historians alike who have correctly translated the hieroglyphs that this group was of the black race. Diop writing in 1955 states, "The Tehenou or black Lebou was probably the ancestor of the modern Lebou...These Blacks preceded the Temehou or white Lybians in that region of the western Delta. The existence of the first black inhabitant, the Tenehu, made it possible to create confusion over the term "brown Lybian..."

That among the predominant black types, there was also an Euro-Asiatic species of man in Egypt from a very early historical period is fact. That they in later times came to be known as Lybians is also fact. That these Lybians amalgamated with the indigenous blacks of the area which eventually produced what came to be called the "Tawny or white Moor" is also irrefutable. Reynolds cannot afford to misrepresent the historical ledger because she wants to paint the entire population of Africa as black when there is substantial evidence to the contrary.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Dr. Winters

Re-examine the thread. Somebody here did make such claim.

Homburger, on the otherhand, denies Fulfulde as
12th dynasty AEL by the very passage you presented
from a seondary source.

---

It was Alain Anselin. Yet he goes on to make it clear that the Egyptians and Fula were related. He also adds the Dravidians to the mix.

.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Dr. Winters

Re-examine the thread. Somebody here did make such claim.

Homburger, on the otherhand, denies Fulfulde as
12th dynasty AEL by the very passage you presented
from a seondary source.

---

It was Alain Anselin. Yet he goes on to make it clear that the Egyptians and Fula were related. He also adds the Dravidians to the mix.

.

---

Yes I remember earlier when you cited one scholar as evidence of support for the notion that Dravidian originate in Africa based on Dravidian / Fula ties...... when in fact the scholar was claiming the Fulani originated in India.

Is this still the same bait and switch game you are playing?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Gaul:
... you wait until I bring doubt on Fulani as a culture in SE ALgeria rather than just proto pastoral Africans, THEN you decide to jump on the balls of Ba?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wally:
Dr. Winters,
As you no doubt have witnessed in this thread is that we are up against a dogma, ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian:
I wasn't going to come back either, but these postings are bothering me.

http://www.muslimsinamerica.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=16&Itemid=28

I was scanning quickly through books on African American slaves and saw that one of our ancestors claimed Ancient Egyptian origin.

He was a Foulah namd Ben Ali and he wrote/said that the Foulah were descended from the Hyksos/Shepard Kings.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Gaul:

... Ivan Van Sertima's book "The Golden Age of the Moor",

. . .

Pg. 120, sub-chapter: "The Fulani as Gaitules"

quote:

---

... They have, except their language, many habits of dress and accoutrements in common with Somali and Rendili and at times a strong familial resemblance to Cushitic peoples in general.

---

To which I already mentioned how Somali and other horners I have heard speak about exactly what Sertima mentioned in the last sentence. Continuing...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
It was Alain Anselin. Yet he goes on to make it clear that the Egyptians and Fula were related. He also adds the Dravidians to the mix.

.

---

Yes I remember earlier when you cited one scholar as evidence of support for the notion that Dravidian originate in Africa based on Dravidian / Fula ties...... when in fact the scholar was claiming the Fulani originated in India.

---

I never heard of this. Who said the Fula came from India? Please direct us to this statement.

.

---

• The Dravidians in Africa
  
  
  
  MIILE HOMBURGER*
  
  
  
  [ French original appeared in the journal “La monde non chretian” Oct~ Nov4 1952, Paris]
  
  
  
  
  
  
  The people from South India are known as Dravidians. Their Languages are spoken by more than 65 millions. They do not belong to the Indo-European family to which belong Hindi, Marathi and most of the dialects of the Aryans who were living in the Indus and the Ganges valleys i.e. north to the peninsula.
  
  
  
  The Dravidian languages are mainly divided into two i.e. literary and non-literary. Literary languages include four great languages. Each language is having its own indigenous written script. Tamil is spoken in the south-east of South India; Mala­yalam, the closest language to Tamil, is spoken from the west coast; Kannada, is spoken from the North West Coast; Telugu is spoken from the North of Tamil Nadu and to the East of Kannada. Though they have different characteristics, the vocabularies and morphological systems are common. The differences between these Dravidian languages are lesser than the differences between the Indo-European languages.
  
  
  
  The non-literary Dravidian languages are spoken in the mountain areas of the North. The script of these languages was introduced by the European missionaries in the 19th century A. D. They are Kui, Kuvi (two dialects of the people known as Konds). Gondi, Malto and Kurukh or Crayon. Finally, Brahui, a language spoken from Baluchistan (of Pakistan) is also identified as a Dravidian language. Its morphological system clearly shows its resemblance with the Dravidian languages.
  
  
  
  The Dravidians were navigators and merchants. Their oldest inscriptions date back to the beginning of Christian era. As they
  
  
  borrowed more aspects from the Aryans, particularly words, philosophical and religious thoughts etc., it was thought during XIX-th century that their entire civilisation came to them from the Indo-Aryans.
  
  
  
  Through the excavation made in the Indus valley prior to 1925, archaeologists discovered Mohenjo-Daro and Harappa, the ruined important towns. They found there the dwelling places, palaces and temples. (See: E, Macay, The Indus Civilisation, London, 1935, French translation, Payot publishing house.). Archaeologists regard that the ruin dates back to 2800 B.C and it was even anterior to the Sumerian Civilisation.
  
  
  
  Braye studied the language and traditions of Brahui of Balu­chistan. He explains that these Brahui speaking people represent a northern section of the citizen of the ancient Dravidian empire of the Indus. In the later days, the Dravidians of the Indus, would have been driven off to South India by the invaders coming from the North. They could have preceded the Aryans.
  
  
  
  However one could not easily accept today that the Dravidians might have been savages before the arrival of the people who spoke Indo-European languages.
  
  
  
  It is recognized that the Tamils penetrated into the island of Ceylon and the Singhalese have borrowed much from this Dravidian language. Even now some traces confirming this aspect are found in Malay.
  
  
  
  Since 1946 onwards, we affirm that certain languages of Africa have some similarities with Dravidian languages. (See: Our compa­rative study of the Peul language of the scattered shepherd from Bagiorni to Senegal and hereby mentioned Brahui). But our papers have accepted with scepticism in spite of the affirmation of Professor Baumann, a German ethnologist and an expert in African studies ‘who has declared in his work published in 1940 (French translation, Payot, 1940) that all the Neo-Sudanese Civilization had come from the South of Asia especially from India.
  
  
  
  Happily, we presented at the 7th International Congress of linguists, conducted in London from 1st to 6th September of 1952, lot of common morphological facts which’ convinced the quasi
  
  
  totality of the spectators. Only two or three famous Africans have declared that the sceptics would, hereafter, justifly their incredility.
  
  
  
  It is not necessary to show the technical demonstration conducted in London, but it will be useful to bring the conclusions which flow from it.
  
  
  
  It does not concern with the massive invasion of Africa by the people of Dravidian languages. It is possible to believe that all the black Africans had come from India. Many anthropologists think in this line. But it is yet, a problem to be solved.
  
  
  
  The Linguistic facts show that the various groups of foreigners who came through the ports of the West Coast at different dates organised states and imposed their manner of speaking and a part of their vocabularies.
  
  
  
  Due to lack of time, all the details could not be brought out for all the languages. Here, we present a few points which are clear.
  
  
  
  The unity of the Bantu language group inspite of its dispersion, has made us to admit the existence of a big state which was between the Late Victoria Nyanza and the ports of Mombasa and of Melude from the beginning of the Christian era. The linguistic facts show that this state was organised by the Kannadas. The demonstrative prefixes a, i (e,o,u) followed by different elements used as pronouns are common in Kannada and in Bantu languages.
  
  
  
  Example:
  
  
  
  Bantu Kannada*
  
  1. ndu = ondu=are they are (Singular neuter)
  
  2. aba = abbaru = they (plural human person)
  
  3. abi,avii, .
  
  (avei) =they
  
  ebi,evi,vi
  
  4. eka = eka = alone*
  
  5. is = is = causative suffix
  
  6. 1k = ik = stative suffix
  
  
  
  * Not only in Kannada, all other Dravidian words also are common.
  
  -Editor
  
  · The word ecka is may be from the Sanskrit origin. -Editor
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Nubian is known to us by some Christian texts dating from 8th and 9th century onwards through the multiple works done on the different dialects. Now some morphological traits, rather parti­cular of Nubian have been found in Kui language of the Northern Dravidian family.
  
  
  
  Example:
  
  
  
  Kul Nubian
  
  in ni - genetive
  
  
  
  ki, gi dative, accusative
  
  toti ton, doton
  
  
  
  -s- -s-
  
  
  
  man amen = is, are
  
  
  
  Since we know that the Diocletien one of the savage tribes which was then threatening Egypt, who settle in Nubia at the end of the 3rd century. It is probable that the above said invaders were Dravidians and the settled tribe in Nubia was speaking a dialect which was closely related to the modern Kui, a Dravidian tongue.
  
  
  
  Nubian had evolved since 8th century A. D. Between the modern dialects of Nile and the modern dialects of India numerous common words are found.
  
  
  
  The kingdom of Mali, or Mandingues was certainly organised by the Telugus. Because, in Mande, the Dravidian unique suffix of the plural lu is still in use. It is a Telugu suffix which does not distinguish the plural between persons and non-persons.
  
  
  
  The masculine suffix n and feminine ‘l” are the Dravidian suffixes. These two are available in Housa language, an African tongue. Due to want of time we are unable to examine all the Housa morphemes. Besides, the Housa has much circulation and they have borrowed more from Berbers and Arabs.
  
  
  
  We finish here this short insight with the above stated facts. We hope that our readers will understand that henceforth our African linguists will have no more to formulate hypothesis and divergences of the common facts/similarities of the Negro African language groups. The African linguists will be able to bring out the
  
  
  earlier history of the Christian era; they will also trace out the invaders who brought the Neo-Sudanese civilisation which was found from the ruins of Zimbabwe and the exploiters of the tin mines of Nigeria. Considering all these facts, Professor Hutton of Cambridge since several years back itself affirms, that the invaders and exploiters mentioned above must be Indians.
  
  
  
  Before finishing we shall recall certain facts which were very often ignored and left in the dark.
  
  
  
  I. The maritime waves going up from the south to north along the west coast of India pass on to south of Arabia and go down towards Zanzibar.
  
  
  
  2. Next to Africans, Dravidians (Indians) were more dark in colour. The Dravidians went to Africa through the Red sea. They were black men but not Brahmins.
  
  
  
  3. The Periplus of the Erythraean sea of First century A.D. mentions that the Indian colonies appeared on the coast of East Africa.
  
  
  
  NOTE:
  
  
  
  The numerous words of Negro-African are closely related to the old Egyptian and Copte.
  
  
  
  Example:
  
  chillouk - choli ket or get
  
  ee baati - Egyptian kd, Copte ket
  
  
  
  Now, certain words are found in the Dravidian and Egyptian languages which are common to the Negro-African languages. Negro-African and Dravidian languages are not recognized as part of the Egypto-semitic group.
  
  
  
  Above all we have been led to formulate the following hypo­thesis. The Egyptians of the first dynasty came from indus and settled in Egypt nearly 3000 B.C. Their spoken language was very close to modern Dravidian. They might have influenced the people of Semitic language. Even today they adopt some rare traces of the Dravidian morphology,
  
  
  
  
  Example: i - Dravidian feminine
  
  un/oui/oue - Copte
  
  Common feminine suffix to Semitic and Dravidian.
  
  
  
  A deep research would give certainly some other facts but for the time being we come to know some common vocabularies as follows:
  
  bw = Elephant - Egyptian
  
  iblia = Elephant - Kannada (Dravidian)
  
  shrr = small - Egyptian
  
  chiru = small - Kannada

 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
Although Homburger believed that Africans originated in India we know today from the archaeology that the Dravidians originated in Africa.



Kerma




Nubian Pottery

B.B. Lal (1963) proved conclusively that the Dravidians were genetically related to the C group of Nubia, given the fact that both groups used 1) a common BRW, 2) a common burial complex incorporating megaliths and circular rock enclosures and 3) a common type of rock cut sepulchre.






South India

The BRW industry diffused from Nubia, across West Asia into Rajastan, and thence to East Central and South India. (Rao 1972:34)
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
Gaul you are right about the Tehenu. The Tehenu are often associated with the C-Group people. Dravidians and Niger-Congo speakers can trace their descent back to these groups.

Amratian Pottery



The Egyptians and West Africans formerly lived together in the highland areas of Africa, I call "The Fertile African Cresent", until they moved into the Nile delta (the Egyptians) and West Africa (Niger-Congo speakers). These Proto-Saharans were called Ta-Seti and Tehenu by the Egyptians. Farid(1985,p.82) noted that "We can notice that the beginning of the Neolithic stage in Egypt on the edge of the Western Desert corresponds with the expansion of the Saharian Neolithic culture and the growth of its population" (emphasis that of author).

A Tehenu personage is depicted on Amratian period pottery (Farid 1985 ,p. 84). The Tehenu wore pointed beard, phallic-sheath and feathers on their head.


Tehenu on Amratian Pottery



The red-and-black pottery was probably created by the C-Group people. They spread this ceramic style throughout Asia and Middle Africa.

The inhabitants of the Fezzan were round headed black Africans (Jelinek, 1985,p.273). The cultural characteristics of the Fezzanese were analogous to C-Group culture items and the people of Ta-Seti . The C-Group people occupied the Sudan and Fezzan regions between 3700-1300 BC (Jelinek 1985).

The inhabitants of Libya were called Tmhw (Temehus). The Temehus were organized into two groups the Thnw (Tehenu) in the North and the Nhsj (Nehesy) in the South (Diop 1986).

The Temehus are called the C-Group people by archaeologists (Jelinek,1985; Quellec, 1985). The central Fezzan was a center of C-Group settlement.

Members of the C-Group probably entered Egypt and founded some of the Southern nomes associated with the Inyotefs.

Quellec (1985, p.373) discussed in detail the presence of C-Group culture traits in the Central Fezzan along with their cattle during the middle of the Third millennium BC. The Temehus or C-Group people began to settle Kush around 2200 BC.

The kings of Kush had their capital at Kerma, in Dongola and a sedentary center on Sai Island. The same pottery found at Kerma is also present in Libya especially the Fezzan. There are similarities between Egyptian and Saharan motifs (Farid,1985). It was in the Sahara that we find the first evidence of agriculture, animal domestication and weaving (Farid ,1985, p.82).
 

---

Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 
(sigh...sigh...sigh...)

alTakruri,
The Ethnic names Akan, Fante, Yoruba, Hausa...are relatively singular and stable and therefore are easier to search for in the Mdu Ntr but on the contrary look at the difficulty you encounter with the "Fulani" ethnic group: Fula, Fulani, Fulbe, Peul, Peulh, Peuhl, Pulaar, Fulfulde...

Since you seem to stubbornly insist on my finding this group's ethnic title, I first need to know what it is???

Ex: if it were - in the old days in Algeria - "Peul" then I would know to look for it within the following categories "pr" & "fr" in the dictionary - you see?

I have personally seen enough evidence to convince me that the Fulani once resided in the Nile Valley, but because of your insistence on this little (and it is little) detail "it must be in writing," I will find this information for you, if you provide me with the singular (or two) self-identification name of these people from the earliest times...
Thanx
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
The subject is Fulani. Dancing an "Akan, Fante, Yoruba,
Hausa..." beat doesn't help you. Being cluelessly unable
to differentiate what Fulani call themselves versus
what others call them does not help you. Invoking names
of deities does not help you. And guess what? Al~Takruri
does not help you.

You must be the one to support your own viewpoint.
Don't expect me to do it for you. Hundreds of ethnonyms
are in the AEL records. You go find the applicable
one yourself.

I maintain that the first rcorded instance of Fulani
cultural traits happened in West Africa over 5000
years
ago. If you disagree fine, but archaeology is in agrement.
All the emotionallyc feinted sighs in the world will
never replace academic proofing.

Bring us some on an autonymous ethny in AE answering
your thread header The Egyptian Origin of the Fulani,
please. It's ludicrous (laugh laugh laugh) to propose
that and then not even know the name they call themselves.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wally:
(sigh...sigh...sigh...)

alTakruri,
The Ethnic names Akan, Fante, Yoruba, Hausa...are relatively singular and stable and therefore are easier to search for in the Mdu Ntr but on the contrary look at the difficulty you encounter with the "Fulani" ethnic group: Fula, Fulani, Fulbe, Peul, Peulh, Peuhl, Pulaar, Fulfulde...

Since you seem to stubbornly insist on my finding this group's ethnic title, I first need to know what it is???

Ex: if it were - in the old days in Algeria - "Peul" then I would know to look for it within the following categories "pr" & "fr" in the dictionary - you see?

I have personally seen enough evidence to convince me that the Fulani once resided in the Nile Valley, but because of your insistence on this little (and it is little) detail "it must be in writing," I will find this information for you, if you provide me with the singular (or two) self-identification name of these people from the earliest times...
Thanx

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The Egyptians and West Africans formerly lived together in the highland areas of Africa, I call "The Fertile African Cresent", until they moved into the Nile delta (the Egyptians) and West Africa (Niger-Congo speakers).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wally:
(sigh...sigh...sigh...)

alTakruri,
The Ethnic names Akan, Fante, Yoruba, Hausa...are relatively singular and stable and therefore are easier to search for in the Mdu Ntr but on the contrary look at the difficulty you encounter with the "Fulani" ethnic group: Fula, Fulani, Fulbe, Peul, Peulh, Peuhl, Pulaar, Fulfulde...

Since you seem to stubbornly insist on my finding this group's ethnic title, I first need to know what it is???

Ex: if it were - in the old days in Algeria - "Peul" then I would know to look for it within the following categories "pr" & "fr" in the dictionary - you see?

I have personally seen enough evidence to convince me that the Fulani once resided in the Nile Valley, but because of your insistence on this little (and it is little) detail "it must be in writing," I will find this information for you, if you provide me with the singular (or two) self-identification name of these people from the earliest times...
Thanx

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Van Sertima didn't mention anything you fool.

Why don't you know the difference between an editor
of a journal (van Sertima) and an author of one of a
journal's selections (Reynolds-Marniche)?

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Gaul:

... Ivan Van Sertima's book "The Golden Age of the Moor",

. . .

Pg. 120, sub-chapter: "The Fulani as Gaitules"

quote:

---

... They have, except their language, many habits of dress and accoutrements in common with Somali and Rendili and at times a strong familial resemblance to Cushitic peoples in general.

---

To which I already mentioned how Somali and other horners I have heard speak about exactly what Sertima mentioned in the last sentence. Continuing...

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Gaul:

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Van Sertima didn't mention anything you fool.

Why don't you know the difference between an editor
of a journal (van Sertima) and an author of one of a
journal's selections (Reynolds-Marniche)?

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Gaul:

... Ivan Van Sertima's book "The Golden Age of the Moor",

. . .

Pg. 120, sub-chapter: "The Fulani as Gaitules"

quote:

---

... They have, except their language, many habits of dress and accoutrements in common with Somali and Rendili and at times a strong familial resemblance to Cushitic peoples in general.

---

To which I already mentioned how Somali and other horners I have heard speak about exactly what Sertima mentioned in the last sentence. Continuing...

---

---

The fact that you mentioned Van Sertima is the EDITOR of this journal, presented as a book gives more wieght to the argument, since it is he who has the last say in who and what is allowed to be voiced in this journal. Anything he disagreed with he gave his own take on it throughout this journal in book form, if you bothered to read it.

Whats presented here, as EDITED by VAN SERTIMA is that its a forgone conclusion that the Fulani represent the ancient Libyians, who's ancestors were C-group (NILE VALLEY) Nubians. The only points of contention here is when the pale faced "Tamahou" or Libyans arrived. Dana Reynolds says they came later and that "Tamahou" merely came to be a reference to the foreign invaders who later became mercenaries, while Chandler beleives these pale-skinned "foreigners" were always there, while still acknowledging that the "Tenehou" were the C-group Nubians that PRECEDED the "Tamahou" in ancient Libya and represented today by groups like the Fulani.

I've been gone for a while, but since I'm back, I think it's high time for you to start presenting some real, hard evidence as to where Fulani were between the time of the Saharan rock art paintings and later when showed up in modern Mauritania. That is a huge gap for which you have presented NO evidence from anyone to fill, while those of us on the other side have provided countless lines of evidence to the contrary.

Time to stop the shallow American Patriot like rebuttals and provide your own evidence that places them outside of the Nile Valley for THIS time gap. Plain and simple.

---

quote:

---

I have personally seen enough evidence to convince me that the Fulani once resided in the Nile Valley,

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
[qb] I deign to respond because of your ad hominem but
vanSertima does not interject in his journals. He
has an overview section more or less introducing
each author and article.

In regards to Golden Age of the Moor being a book
or a journal, it's frontpiece clearly labels it the
JOURNAL OF AFRICAN CIVILIZATIONS
VOL. II
FALL, 1991
GOLDEN AGE OF THE MOOR

The material in the journal is presented by van
Sertima without prejudice or preference. This
well suits a professor who doesn't micro-dictate
his students and colleagues directions.

Those of us who aren't pack-asses know to credit
the actual author of a journal's article (or a
book's chapter) not the editor. Only a jackass
carrying books (it cannot understand) would make
the other mistake.

For pertinent for dumbasses is this note actually
penned by the editor Ivan Van Sertima himself:
Lay-readers are advised to concentrate on the
introduction and conclusions to Reynolds' essay,
since the bulk of it is presented in a style
intended primarily for the perusal of specialists.

As for the Fulani. I'm done. I see no need to repeat
myself and yet again answer a challenge that the poser
thereof has failed miserably to do for his own case
of fantasy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:

quote:

---

I have personally seen enough evidence to convince me that the Fulani once resided in the Nile Valley,

---

^ They are nomadic so you might claim them once residing anywhere from the Red (Black) sea, to Senegal.

The original claim is for Egyptian *origin*.

Read the title of your thread, and notice how your latest posts tries to sneak away from it.

I never let anyone argue by changing their claims.

No evidence has been presented for the original claim - - - period.

---

quote:

---

Fulani history
Some historians believe the Fulani emerged from a prehistoric pastoral group that originated in the upper Nile region around 3500 B.C. As the climate of the Sahara grew increasingly harsh, population pressures drove them to migrate slowly west and south in search of better grazing lands. By the eleventh century the Fulani emerged as a distinct people group in the Sénégambia Valley. Over the next 400 years they journeyed back east, but south of the Sahara, which had become an inhospitable desert...

---

Exhibit B

here's some linguistic data comparing Fulani --- Mdu Ntr...

I - mi --- ni
you - on --- un
we - en --- un
they - be --- bu (people)
to be bad - bonude --- boone
bad - boni --- bon
death; to die - maayde;maayude --- maati, moute, moout, mouti
last year - rawanen --- snouf; ronpe
eye - yitere --- eirti
blessing - barka --- baraka
cow - nagge --- naga
father - baaba --- baba
...

Exhibit C

A statement from The Gaul:
"I think we allow ourselves to fall into a trap set forth mainly by non-Africans, i.e. Explorer, in erroneously believing that showing a link to the NV somehow relegates all of our other African kingdoms and societies to "doormat" status in comparison to AE. Completely mis-guided and a falsehood.
The central point is to show the interrelatedness and affinites of many, if not ALL African people in which one of the points of high concentration, at one point in time, was the Nile Valley. Despite the well documented diversity of Africa and Africans, the Nile Valley is one area where similarities can be highlighted to show that we are "one". This is what has been well documented by our African scholars and is the central point being put forth here, specifically with Fulani in this thread.
This does NOT stretch so far back in time as it would pre-date man leaving Africa to populate the rest of the world, and does NOT suggest all africans left the Nile Valley or highlands of the Sahara at the same time, as Dhar Tichitt is an prime example with the Mande. "

Exhibit D

A statement from Dr. Winters
"You admit that Diop has presented hundreds of Wolof terms that are related to Egyptian. If we use Jaja's reasoning we must declare that since Fula is related to Wolof, and Wolof is related to Egyptian, Fula is related to Egyptian.
In this thread we have not made this silly argument. We have presented linguistic and other data supporting the Egyptian origin of the Fula and that the Fula did not originate in West Africa. In fact, none of the West Atlantic languages originated in West Africa."

Exhibit E

The Gaul:
"Once again, there is NO EVIDENCE that the rock paintings in Tassili pre-dates those found in other areas of the Nile Valley and conitinuing to the Red Sea. These have been dated to at least 5000 BC by using the time of extinction of a certain herd of wild cattle, which were found also in the cave paintings as far east as Somalia . There is also nothing that distinctly says the rock paintings in Tassili are that of Fulani, only that a certain ceremony and milk containors are prevelent, but of which is also found among other semi-nomadic, pastorolists such as Masaai and those in preset day Sudan. For instance, the Fulani "calf-rope" is not seen in the Tassili paintings.
On this subject, doubt can be cast on everything, so it seems prudent to go with the linguistic and cultural evidence Fulani and Wolof scholars have brought out, especially one who claimed this back in the late 1800s."

Exhibit F

Clarifying the simple meaning of the topic's title: The Egyptian origin of the Fulani:
ie, an English lesson...

Origin -birth, descent, extraction, family tree, genealogy, line, lineage, parentage...
- People certainly can and do originate in two, and usually in many places:
a) my birth origin is Louisiana
b) my descent is African
c) my lineage is from many places in Africa, a smidgen of European, and perhaps a dash of Native American...
--as Dr. Winters has so accurately pointed out, even the Ancient Egyptians did not originate in Egypt; yet they are from Egypt - you certainly understand this process, and for you to maintain that the Fulani, who have originated in more places in Africa than perhaps any other African ethnic group, did not spend some time 'originating' in Ancient Egypt, boggles the mind. The Fulani of the Sudan are from Sudan, that is thus, their place of origin...

Exhibit G

a point of clarification of the evidence by Dr. Winters
"No one has said anything about a migration out of Egypt during the 12th Dynasty. Homburger uses linguistic data to indicate that the Egyptian language spoken during this period agrees with the Fulani language."

Exhibit H

Dr. Winters,
As you no doubt have witnessed in this thread is that we are up against a dogma, not the same dogma as put out by the looneys who post here, this is dogma with intelligence, but dogma none the less. The Dogma is this: Africans might have migrated from any other place in Africa or have originated any where else in Africa except Ancient Egypt or the Nile Valley!We have presented here: linguistic evidence, cultural evidence, Griot historical evidence, the works of scholars, only to be called 'disingeneous' - a euphemism for ' lier' despite:

a) The names of several African ethnic groups are identical to Ancient Egyptian gods, or have a ring of Nobility or status within Ancient Egypt - The Akan, The Fanti, The BaTutsi, The Yoruba, the Hausa...

b) We also have shown that a Wolof could understand an Ancient Egyptian speaker in the same manner that a Portuguese can understand an Italian speaker, perhaps to an even greater degree...

c) We have shown a close relationship between Fulani, Wolof, and Yoruba, and the Mdu Ntr, which is genetic...

d) BaTutsi Griot legends tells us of their origins in the North, Fulani tell us directly of their sojourn in Ancient Egypt - alTakruri wants to see their emigration papers - The late Yoruba musician Fela was so taken with the knowledge of his ancestors emigration from the Nile Valley, he named his band Egypt87!

e) It blew my mind when a Yoruba friend, when I asked him - an obscure Mdu Ntr word "Noo" ; to erase, wipe - how do you say erase, wipe in Yoruba, and after some thought replied to me "Noo..."

f) The capital of Zimbabwe, named after that great African civilization is "Harare" - "Harare" means "flower" in the Mdu Ntr, a good name, like Addis Ababa (New Flower), for a city...

--We also presented the actual hieroglyph of the God Muntu -or "human or men"in Bantu, and is a center point in Bantu Philosophy and wisdom; Muntu was an Egyptian God, succeeded by Amon, and was the white bull god with a black face - and also an excellent book; Muntu: African Culture and the Western World by Janheinz Jahn and Marjorie Grene.--

 

---

Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Breying donkey carrying books you can't understand.

People come here to read my work because of the
sources I cite and for my original insights and my
piercing critical analyses.

---

Critical analysis like your pro-Zionist BS like your Maimonides apologia, denial of white Jewish separatist thinking and trying to pass off cracker Jews as "black"? Is this what you call critical analysis Great Jew?


 

---

Posted by The Gaul (Member # 16198) on :
 
For those that refute and/or vehemently deny a Nile Valley origin, simply stating so is empty and takes away from this board.

Please provide your detailed, documented, hard evidence of an origin outside the Nile Valley, and lines of continuity via migration routes, for the education and sake of ES if this is what you beleive, for this has already been provided by those who believe in a Nile Valley origin, namely West African scholars such as Lam and Diop themselves.

All of the refutations so far have pretty much only amounted to "no they're not".
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Anyone careful enough to read this thread from
page one can follow my argument. I feel no need
to constantly repeat it for breying jackasses with
zero retentive memory who carry books they can't
understand.

I will only respond to replies posted via the
button requesting clarification or expansion of
my position. I will ignore all such request made
in taunting tones or presented with ad hominem.
I tire of returning insults in kind. It cheapens the
learning experience and lowers me to the level of
the distractive detracting donkey who initiates it.
 

---

Posted by The Gaul (Member # 16198) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Anyone careful enough to read this thread from
page one can follow my argument. I feel no need
to constantly repeat it for breying jackasses with
zero retentive memory who carry books they can't
understand.

I will only respond to replies posted via the
button requesting clarification or expansion of
my position. I will ignore all such request made
in taunting tones or presented with ad hominem.
I tire of returning insults in kind. It cheapens the
learning experience and lowers me to the level of
the distractive detracting donkey who initiates it.

---

quote:

---

Daydreamers of Egyptian origins for Fulani or other
non-Egyptian ethnies can produce not a single
ethnonymous use of Tutsi, Akan, Fulani, etc.,
in any primary Rn Mdw document. All they can do is bewail the fact that such exists
for Israel. Envy is such a terrible resource wasting
thing, ain't it Wally.

---

quote:

---

Please provide your detailed, documented, hard evidence of an origin outside the Nile Valley, and lines of continuity via migration routes, for the education and sake of ES if this is what you beleive, for this has already been provided by those who believe in a Nile Valley origin, namely West African scholars such as Lam and Diop themselves.

---

quote:

---

Please provide your detailed, documented, hard evidence of an origin outside the Nile Valley.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by

No evidence?!? Noooone?!?

Exhibit A
[QUOTE]
Fulani history
Some historians believe the Fulani emerged from a prehistoric pastoral group that originated in the upper Nile region around 3500 B.C.

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quote:

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As the climate of the Sahara grew increasingly harsh, population pressures drove them to migrate slowly west and south in search of better grazing lands.

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quote:

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By the eleventh century the Fulani emerged as a distinct people group in the Sénégambia Valley. Over the next 400 years they journeyed back east, but south of the Sahara, which had become an inhospitable desert...

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quote:

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Exhibit B

here's some linguistic data comparing Fulani --- Mdu Ntr...

I - mi --- ni
you - on --- un
we - en --- un
they - be --- bu (people)
to be bad - bonude --- boone
bad - boni --- bon
death; to die - maayde;maayude --- maati, moute, moout, mouti
last year - rawanen --- snouf; ronpe
eye - yitere --- eirti
blessing - barka --- baraka
cow - nagge --- naga
father - baaba --- baba
...

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quote:

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Exhibit C

A statement from The Gaul:
"I think we allow ourselves to fall into a trap.....[queue violin]

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quote:

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A statement from Dr. Winters
"You admit that Diop has presented hundreds of Wolof terms that are related to Egyptian. If we use Jaja's reasoning we must declare that since Fula is related to Wolof, and Wolof is related to Egyptian, Fula is related to Egyptian.

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quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:

quote:

---

Please provide your detailed, documented, hard evidence of an origin outside the Nile Valley.

---

^ textbook burden of proof fallacy.

learn how to argue logically.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:

quote:

---

As the climate of the Sahara grew increasingly harsh, population pressures drove them to migrate slowly west and south in search of better grazing lands.

---

^ Probably defines most of the population of North Africa.

During the Holocene the sahara was green. During the Neolithic, it was dryer than it is now.
Egypt emerges after the Neolithic.

No proof here that the Fulani originated in Egypt at this time.

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quote:

---

The Nile Valley was densely populated BEFORE the holocene period you have chosen

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quote:

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It was the early to mid Holocene that saw this to most people who have studied it...

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quote:

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No burden of proof fallacy.

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quote:

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Almost all who have seen the AE tomb wall paintings of the early dark-skinned "Tamahou" likens them to modern Woodaabi both in dress and hairstyle.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:

quote:

---

The Nile Valley was densely populated BEFORE the holocene period you have chosen

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Not sure that discussing the population in the Nile Valley in the Pre-Holocene, or "Paleolithic" would help prove anything about the Fulani?

Paleolithic peoples would be hunter gatherers - there are no domesticated cattle at this time. Fulani language and culture would not yet exist.

What are on earth then, are you even talking about?

Do you know?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:

quote:

---

Almost all who have seen the AE tomb wall paintings of the early dark-skinned "Tamahou" likens them to modern Woodaabi both in dress and hairstyle.

---

Who is almost all?


Name your sources for the claim that Tamahou = Woodaabi.

Similarities and dress and hairstyle exists throughout Africa - it does not follow logically that Egyptian origin is demonstrated wherever similarity exists.

And in fact - It is *not* generally claimed by scholars, that Tamahou are Egyptian in origin, or that Tamahou are somehow Woodaabi.

Tamahou are more often linked to Berber, not Fulani.

You're not making any sense.

Indeed, I would like to know if Wally is claiming that the Fulani are the Tamahou, and Tamahou are Egyptians?

Really?

Since when?

---

If you took the time to read the sources, complete with direct quotes, authors, and the editor given, you would see the context. You seem not to understand the dark-skinned "Tehenou" (or early Tamahou according to Reynolds), whom are likened to "Red" Fulani, and the later lighter skinned ones, which was the point of contention of the authors I posted on what should be the proper term for these two differently complexioned groups of people. Both agreed that the C-group "Nubians" were the forbearers for the culture. Even today, regardless of skin color, Tuareg and Woodaabi are like cousins and share cultural traits.

Whether feigning blindness or ignorance, your independent, similarly detailed thesis on an origin outside of the NV awaits.
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
It is the creamy colored TMHHW depicted in Seti I's
tomb who are compared to Fulani not the dark THHNW. Those TMHHW
do phenotypically resemble Zenaga iMazighen more than Bororo Fulani.



Points of phenotypical/physical similarity:
* Facial profile - straight (orthognous)
* Chin - tufted goatee beard
* Hair - thick locks
* Nose - thin nostrils, well defined bridge
* Face - gaunt (narrow)
* Body - slim wiry build

We could also examine the clothing of the TMHHW
and the Bororo to unravel superficial resemblances.
Note that Reynolds-Marniche didn't originate the idea
of TMHHW-WoDaabe kinship. She should've closely
compared the two on her own instead of repeating
earlier pronouncements.

In any event Reynolds-Marniche doesn't support an
Egyptian origin of the Fulani. She sees them as
Gaitule descendants and thus of 'Libyan' antecedents.
She point blank labels them black Berbers.
 

---

Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
 
Off Topic but check out the head gear:



Are those feathers or what?

Tamahou?
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Yes those are feathers. As to whether the people are Tamahou, I'm not sure but I think they are. Such feather adornments were common to Libyan peoples since early dynastic times, by the way.

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

It is the creamy colored TMHHW depicted in Seti I's
tomb who are compared to Fulani not the dark THHNW. Those TMHHW
do phenotypically resemble Zenaga iMazighen more than Bororo Fulani.



Points of phenotypical/physical similarity:
* Facial profile - straight (orthognous)
* Chin - tufted goatee beard
* Hair - thick locks
* Nose - thin nostrils, well defined bridge
* Face - gaunt (narrow)
* Body - slim wiry build

We could also examine the clothing of the TMHHW
and the Bororo to unravel superficial resemblances.
Note that Reynolds-Marniche didn't originate the idea
of TMHHW-WoDaabe kinship. She should've closely
compared the two on her own instead of repeating
earlier pronouncements.

In any event Reynolds-Marniche doesn't support an
Egyptian origin of the Fulani. She sees them as
Gaitule descendants and thus of 'Libyan' antecedents.
She point blank labels them black Berbers.

---

We are talking about phenotype vs. culture here. Would it not be possible for these ancient North Africans to share similar phenotype as say Wodaabe Fulani but still be Berber speakers??

By the way, why are these Tamahou 'cream-colored' in the first place unless they are somehow ancestors of todays white Berber like the Rif or Kabyle. Is this not possible??
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
The fact remains that Saharan rock art distinguishes the
cattle herders by phenotype as well as culture from the
'white' hunters and militants who are feathered. The art
with Fulani cultural traits portray brown skinned folk who
in no way resemble the TMHHW of the pharaohs' tomb
paintings unlike these 'whites' who do.



Bororo distinguish themselves from Berbers and do
acknowledge a one time subservient position to them.
Bororo men shy from taking Berber wives and chide
Bororo women who marry Berber men as reverting to
the position in former times as being subservient to
Berbers.

Today variants of Pulaar/Fulfulde is the Fulani
vernacular. Fulani legends say the first Fulbe
ancestors didn't speak Fulfulde. One of the first
Fulani groups of historical mention were the Banu
Warith, a clan of the Godalla taMazight speakers.
Some linguist claim a taMazight substratum is in
Fulfulde that's absent from the Serere and Wolof
Atlantic languages.

Those TMHHW who were creamy colored, because
all of them weren't creamy colored, got the cream
in their coffee from northern Mediterraneans both
before and after the events of the Trojan War and
the 'Sea People' migrations.

Since descriptions of Latin Rome and thereafter
don't recognize the Maurs as white skinned the
white Riffians colour must come from the trade
in white women instituted and well noted after
the rise of Islam. If not, then it may be from
prehistory when the 'Beaker' trade and other
trade was ongoing between the western half of
littoral North Africa, Spain, and Mediterranean
islanders.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000444#000034

Very many contemporay littoral North Africans are
partially descended from Spaniards, Italians, and
Greeks. It's these misegenated iMazighen who cry
the most against 'black' Africans and take pains to
remove themselves from any connections to blacks
or to non-'Berber' Africans.
 

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Posted by The Gaul (Member # 16198) on :
 
Doubled.
 

---

Posted by The Gaul (Member # 16198) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
It is the creamy colored TMHHW depicted in Seti I's
tomb who are compared to Fulani not the dark THHNW. Those TMHHW
do phenotypically resemble Zenaga iMazighen more than Bororo Fulani.



Points of phenotypical/physical similarity:
* Facial profile - straight (orthognous)
* Chin - tufted goatee beard
* Hair - thick locks
* Nose - thin nostrils, well defined bridge
* Face - gaunt (narrow)
* Body - slim wiry build

We could also examine the clothing of the TMHHW
and the Bororo to unravel superficial resemblances.
Note that Reynolds-Marniche didn't originate the idea
of TMHHW-WoDaabe kinship. She should've closely
compared the two on her own instead of repeating
earlier pronouncements.

In any event Reynolds-Marniche doesn't support an
Egyptian origin of the Fulani. She sees them as
Gaitule descendants and thus of 'Libyan' antecedents.
She point blank labels them black Berbers.

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quote:

---

They still practice the burning of the temples of infants Herodotus mentions as common to all Lybians.

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quote:

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The pastoral Fulani are the only people in West Africa who milk their cattle and though they have recently been touched by modernization, rarely did they raise their cattle for food. (The ancient Lybians did not eat the cow, considering them sacred.) Like many Cushitic and Nilo-Saharan peoples they tend to know each of the members of their herds by name and treat them with great affection and respect.

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quote:

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Just as other nomadic peoples like Nilo-Saharans anciently and more recently Fulani have extended themselves across the Sudan from Senegal to East Africa, it seems ancient Nubian nomads originating east of the Nile ancestral to modern Beja and Afar, had from an early period spread themselves over the North African area between the Atlantic and Red sea, retaining their names. To them may have been the horse chariot and later the camel and veil in North Africa.

As Oric Bates, writer of The Eastern Lybians pointed out, the stone tumulus graves of Nubia of C-group and Pan Grave culture closely resemble the type found in Western Sahara called by the Tuareg regem or argem.

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quote:

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The Fulani of Takrur were called Beni Warith or Waritan of the Beni Goddala or Jeddala in the Annales Regnum Mauretanie (Annals of the Mauritian Kings) and the writing of El-Bekri. They were said to have once lived in the Mauretanian Adrar. Goddala is the Arab pronunciation of the earleir Gaituli of the Roman historians. The Gaitules were the most populous of the Lybian tribes of Strabo's time (1st century A.D.). Josephus around the same period claimed that they were the same as the Evalioi of Kush or the people of anceint Avalis (Hevila) - the Zeila of present day Somalia, which might explain why the Fulani today resemble so much the people of that region.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Whatbox:
Off Topic but check out the head gear:



Are those feathers or what?

Tamahou?

---

You may not be as off topic as you think, as some suggest the "white" tamahou like below simply amalgamated with the culture of the darker indigenous Tamahou/Tenehou that already existed, including style of dress, depending on how one chooses to define these ancient terms.



Tuareg/Woodaabi Ertran Finatawa , in both veiled and probably ancient dress, resembling the paintings posted replete with head-feather, side-locks, and tunics:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GH9o3-skjGc&feature=related (Rasol up front in the dark shades).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NjX1ziHVX8
 

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Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
The Tamahou and Tehenu need not be confused with one another. The former were generally featured as light-toned characters sporting double-feathered gear on their heads; whereas the latter were darker-toned characters, and did not sport a feathered head gear. The former wore a cape-like garment, whereas the latter were more bare in their dressing, entailing distinctive straps crossing one another across the chest area, neck gear or laces, and sheaths covering their frontal ends.

The aforementioned "strapped-gear" may be reminiscent of those occasionally seen on Wodaabe/Bororo dancers, generally white in color; however, this is a far cry from identifying the Tehenu as the Bororo. For one, such garment is by no means relegated to the Bororo; Intore dancers for instance, feature such garment. As a matter of an example, a wall-relief displays the Tehenu without a feathered head gear. The Bororo dancers typically have single-feathered head gears, with the feather right above the forehead...interestingly, reminiscent of the "white" toned figures in the rock art picture above [reposted below]. At any rate, the dress of the "white" toned figures is distinct from that associated with the Bororo...



Hard to make it out with precision due to the fairly low resolution, but some of the characters below, appear to be wearing head-gears, reminiscent of those "conical"-looking hats worn by the Bororo...



The aforementioned Tehenu wall-relief also displays domesticated fauna, like cattle, goats, donkeys/asses and possibly sheep. The cattle depicted here though, are not morphologically those of the established Fulani-variants. In a few words, there is nothing about Tehenu figures that is particularly characteristic of just the contemporary Bororo or Fulas in general.
 

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Posted by The Gaul (Member # 16198) on :
 
There are two sides of the Tamahou/Tehenou debate, in which some take the Wayne B. Chandler, Tamahou were always "white/light-skinned and were in Libya from the earliest of times" side of it. While others might take the Reynolds side already discussed.

Though both, at this point, is educated speculation, bear in mind that these comparisons encompass more than just the head gear and style of dress from those millenia ago as was already posted, as we wouldn't expect those in modern times to exactly match those found on temple walls and rock paintings.
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
The 'Berber' of today can't be traced to the TMHHW.
'Berber' are properly iMazighen and as such are
traceable to the Meshwesh.

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Gaul:
The term Berber today can be treated the same as the term "Tamahou" of AE times, since, according to Reynolds , it was used to refer to an original ethny that later became just a geographical and cultural reference to include "creamy colored" Tamahou.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Supercar/Explorer:
The Bororo dancers typically have single-feathered head gears, with the feather right above the forehead...interestingly, reminiscent of the "white" toned figures in the rock art picture above [reposted below].

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Gaul:
There are two sides of the Tamahou/Tehenou debate, in which some take the Wayne B. Chandler, Tamahou were always "white/light-skinned and were in Libya from the earliest of times" side of it. While others might take the Reynolds side already discussed.

Though both, at this point, is educated speculation, bear in mind that these comparisons encompass more than just the head gear and style of dress from those millenia ago as was already posted, as we wouldn't expect those in modern times to exactly match those found on temple walls and rock paintings.

---

 

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Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
 
alTakruri wrote:

--------------------------------
TMHHW weren't all creamy colored. Some were yalla
and some were light brown.

Misegenation with north
Mediterraneans is what made for the 'white' Libyans' colour.
--------------------------------


How do you know?


Why are you so diametrically entangled in eurocentric propaganda?


So you're saying that if a population has any variety at all it is because of miscegenation. How stupid. Most people of any ethnicity today do not mix with other ethnicities so you can bet that was even more so in ancient times. That is just human nature.


Ethnic groups produce offspring by members of their own ethnic group. Even the odd case here and there, the offspring will simply be absorbed into another ethnic group. Your grand fantasy of a mixed child altering the looks of an ethnic group are hiliariously idiotic.


You act like ethnic groups have sex and produce children with other ethnic groups at 50% + rates. In the most gratious case its not even 5%. And again even then the offspring doesn't alter whatever group they produce offspring with. They simply become absorbed within that group.


Iron your pants Al, iron your pants. LOL!
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
'White' Libyans are an African impossibility. As
shown elsewhere, white skin developed outside the
African continent. Thus any approaching a European
shade of pale have that colour from some people from
somewhere other than Africa.

In North Africa we have the case of ongoing trade
with South Europe since the neolithic as well as
the arrival of Trojan War refugees and 'Sea People'
who arrived with complete families.

Considering that even mulatos of parentage where
one is black skinned and the other white skinned
are mostly closer to white than black in colour
(look at Obama in group photos) and think of the
effect of cream on coffee.

If you'd like to continue a dialog with me rather
than posting pot shots that never get a reply you
must cease polemic and an homina. If you insist on
talking about me instead of talking about what I
write I'll be forced to ignore you.
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Making a strong case for Fulani being TMHHW only
weakens the case of them being Egyptian in origin.

Why?

Well, Egyptians considered Tjemehu as offspring of
different netjer than the one both they (Egyptians)
and Nehesu are progeny of.



(r.t.RMT:SA:|||) ≠ (tj.MHH.w)
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Proponents of The Egyptian Origin of the Fulani,
please succinctly propose an approximate date
and local place of origin for your Fulani in
Egypt.
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Looks like it turned invisible above so here again
is the unmarred TMHHy from Seti I's tomb both the
Lepsius crew painting and a photo by Kent Weeks
of the Theban Mapping Project



The tomb wall has deteriated even more since Lepsius' day.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ The Tamahu clothing does seem reminiscent of ancient Euro-Mediterranean clothing such as ancient Sicilians and Iberians. Though the feathers and tatoos seem African.
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
You mean the cloak thrown over the shoulder and
clasped in a knot to hold it in place? What about
the penistache? I know it's pretty far flung (seen
Papuans using it).

Back to the cloaks on either side of the Mediterranean.
What about their motifs? Are they fabric or leather?
Embroidered? Fringed? Etc.?
 

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Posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian (Member # 10893) on :
 
Al-Takruri,

I usually don't have major disagreements with you. I usually just copy your postings for reference. However and ironically, I do disagree a Fullah origins. They were in Egypt at least some of them.

Can a people have more than one source of origin?

Yes, of course as a person has two parents.

Mexicans are Spanish and Native.

The Fullah are from West Africa maternally, yet have Middle Eastern, European and even some Aryan paternal sources. Check out my latest post on the other forum.
 

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Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
 
Red,White, and Blue + Christian wrote:
------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------


LOL! A desperate attempt by a loon who sources D-----s as evidence.

Go away boy. Intelligent people have no time the less intelligent sub-lower ranks you occupy.
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Two unrelated comments.

What do you make of the Fulani creation mythos vis-a-vis Egypt's?

Genetics doesn't agree with your paternal ancestry sentiments.
Fulani fathers are Africans of the type generally called sub-Saharan.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian:
... I do disagree a Fullah origins. They were in Egypt at least some of them.


The Fullah are from West Africa maternally, yet have
Middle Eastern,
European and even some
Aryan
paternal sources.

---

 

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Posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian (Member # 10893) on :
 
As I have said a million times, EVERYTHING IS NOT IN ENGLISH!!! The Francophones did not translate everything and not even the most important things.

Dr. A.M. Lam's 400+ page masterpiece has the Fulbe rising out of the Nile valley, Egypt and the area where the Masai live coming together and arching around North Africa ending up in Senegal.

The was scepter of Egypt is found among the Fulbe along with the Zebu. And there are a host of other things. This book needs to be translated into English, especially Part 2!!!



The Creation myths of the Fulbe with their creator god Gueno have not also been fully translated into English. They often mix Mande elements. It's so Cabalistic!



The ancient African symbol above is very similar to a six pointed star I saw in a book on Ancient Egypt. It was on the horns of the goddess Hetheru in an early early painting.

Everything hasn't been translated into English!!!

Don't ask me where I got the following:

Phylogénétique [modifier]
Dans le cadre de l'opération de génétique mondiale des populations, en vu du Projet de séquençage du génome humain, initialisée en 1995 par Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, celle-ci semble marquer une origine à la fois de l'Inde ( Hindou kouch ) et de l'Iran ( Indo-iraniens appelé aussi Indo-aryens ) arya pour les Peuls. Il a été relevé au sujet d'un prélèvement effectué sur un groupe fula du Burkina Faso les conclusions suivantes :

« L'étude des séries d'allèles, de l'haplogroupe P (M45) (haplogroupe asiatique) montre une combinaison génétique particulière pour ce groupe présentant une mutation allélique neutre : M46 (adaptation au paludisme) - Rhésus (Rh) similaire à celui de l'ensemble des Africains et particularités immunologiques proches de celles des Bantous groupe ethnique subsaharien établis du Soudan à l'Atlantique - Une observation approfondie de l'ADNmt pour les femmes et du chromosome Y (Y-ADN) pour les hommes, distingue la présence des marqueurs M 9 haplogroupe k (marqueur eurasiatique présent à 97 % en Iran) ; M 89 haplogroupe F (marqueur du Moyen-Orient présent à 90% chez les populations d'Asie centrale) présent à (18 %) chez les Peuls ( il est à 19 % chez les Arabes et 21 % chez les Afghans ) ; M 20 haplogroupe L (marqueur indien présent à 50 % en Inde du Sud)[56] »


Yes, they are part Aryan as this Burkina Faso report says.

Hasta luego amigo.
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
No worry, it's from http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peuls

As was posted a month ago in one of these Peuhl
threads, Aryan (Indian) origin theory for Fulani is
based on their cattle -- a type of zebu -- but here
we have an addition of nrY K-89 (being mistaken
as an Aryan marker); an addition of a superficial
affinity with Hinduism.

Kal tob hhaber.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian:


Don't ask me where I got the following:

---

quote:

---

The results of several investigations have also indicated
that African zebu cattle are an admixture of Bos indicus
and Bos taurus. The levels of Asian zebu genes in the
African breeds are different and need to be determined for
each breed. Some studies have estimated zebu admixture
levels at about 50.0% to 83.0% in African zebus ...

. . . .

Indian zebu genetic proportions in the African zebus ranged from
58.1% (Ngaoundere Gudali) to 74.0% (Nigerian Red Bororo).



. . . .

The unrooted tree of phylogeny shows a clear separation
between the African zebus and taurine breeds (Fig. 2).
Eight of the zebu breeds are to be found in a tight cluster
at one end and two taurine breeds ... at the other end.



. . . .

It is clear from this study that Bos taurus (European and
African) and Bos indicus cattle possess very distinct allelic
distributions and that zebu breeds in Cameroon and Nigeria
have a mixture of both African/European Bos taurus and
Indian zebu alleles, ...

... The very close relationship for the zebu breeds in Cameroon
and Nigeria was surprising. The breeds are quite distinct
phenotypically and one would have expected this to be reflected
in the dendrogram and PC of relationships. Even though it is
considered that the Gudalis are among the true shorthorn zebus
of West Africa, an examination of the mY1 admixed coefficients
gave this credit rather to the Nigerian Red Bororo. ...

. . . .

It is concluded from this study that cattle breeds in Cameroon
and Nigeria are a unique part of the global animal genetic resource.

... The nine zebu breeds in Cameroon and Nigeria are closely
related and are stabilized hybrids of Indian Bos indicus and
African/European Bos taurus. They are also highly diverged
from their counterpart taurines. High genetic divergence
between the Bos species in Africa, Europe and India is
supportive evidence that they could have been domesticated
independently.



Genetic diversity, introgression and relationships
among West/Central African cattle breeds
Genet. Sel. Evol. 36 (2004) 673–690

---

quote:

---

... The nine zebu breeds in Cameroon and Nigeria are closely
related and are stabilized hybrids of Indian Bos indicus and
African/European Bos taurus. They are also highly diverged
from their counterpart taurines. High genetic divergence
between the Bos species in Africa, Europe and India is
supportive evidence that they could have been domesticated
independently.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

As in the genetic study by E.M. Ibeagha-Awemu et
al of the Institute of Animal Breeding and Genetics,
Justus-Liebig University, Giessen, Germany posted
above, all the literature classes Fulani cattle as
Zebu (Bos indicus).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:
The Zebu cattle only appeared in western Africa at ca. 1800 BP. Furthermore, the Fulani cattle is NOT Zebu, but a west African hybridized breed produced from pre-existing in loco west African cattle and Zebu brought in via eastern Africa!

I challenge ANYONE to demonstrate to the CONTRARY!

---

You are wrong the Zebu has been in Africa since 1800 BC, not BP.

[img] http://www.boran.co.za/Foto%27s/calf.jpg [/img]

Above is a Boran cattle of the Fulani.

Evidence of this comes from Egypt dating to the 12th Dynasty. It is during this Dynasty that Homburger claimedthat the Fulani were in Egypt.

Here is a depiction of humped cattle from Kerma.




There are some rock art drawings that appear to be humped


.
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
The Zebu probably originated in Africa and was taken to India by the Dravidian speaking people. This is supported by the name for cattle shared by Dravidian and African speakers.


The Dravidians originated in Africa. The archaeological evidence make it clear that they were related to the C-Group people according to B B Lal.

Note the humped cattle at bottom of picture

In the western Saharan sites such as Erg In-Sakane region, and the Taoudenni basin of northern Mali, attest to cattle husbandry between 6000 and 5000 B.P. (McIntosh & McIntosh, 1979,1981,1986,1988). Cattle pastoral people began to settle Dar Tichitt and Karkarchinkat between 5000 and 3500 B.P. (Holl, 1989).

The term for cattle, cow in the various African and Dravidian languages show much correspondence. Below we will compare the term for cow from various African languages:

CATTLE/ COW

Egyptian ng, nag

Wolof nag

Fulani nag

Hausa nagge

Angas ning

Ankwe ning

Susu ninge

Nuer yang

Baguirmi m-ang, mang

Gbea m-angu, mangu

Sar(a) m-ang, mang

Serere nak

Mande nika

Burma nak

Tamil n_ku

Malayalam n_ku

Tulu n_ku

Jarawa i-nak

Kagoro nyak

Kaje nyak

Burak nyek

Kagoma nyak

Bobo nyanga

Kono-Vai nige

So.W. Mande ninke

Sembla nigi

Congo-Benue *i-nak

Duala nyaka

Mpongwe nyare

Fang nyar

Kwa nare

Azer(Azayr) na

Soninke na

Gourmantche nua, nue

Tamil _, _n

Malayalam _, _n

Konda _.v

Kannda _, _vu

Telugu _vu

Senufo nu

Ewe nyi

Niellim nya

Boua (Bwa) nya

Tarok ina

Iregwe nya

Dadiya nee

Amo na

Baya nday

Bobofing nya-nga

Gera ndiya

Koro indak

Malinke gu_ga, ko_go ‘zebu’

Songhay dyu_go

Swahili Ki-go_go

Kannada g_nde

Kolami k_nda, kanda

Gadaba k_nde

Gondi k_nda

The correspondence between Dravidian and African terms for cattle support the archaeological evidence for the early domestication of cattle in the Proto-Sahara. This view is supported by the similarity in the terms for cow/cattle by speakers of the Dravidian, Mande, Niger-Congo, Chadic, and Afro Asiatic Supersets.

.
 

---

Posted by The Gaul (Member # 16198) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

As in the genetic study by E.M. Ibeagha-Awemu et
al of the Institute of Animal Breeding and Genetics,
Justus-Liebig University, Giessen, Germany posted
above, all the literature classes Fulani cattle as
Zebu (Bos indicus).

---

That labeling would be incorrect, for even your OWN sources acknowledge that the Fulani breed is IN FACT not Bos Indicus, but a hybrid product of Bos Indicus with the local west African breeds of Bos Taurus. If it is a hybrid between these two cattle sub-species, how can it be suddenly become Bos Indicus, and disavowing its African lineage?

YOUR source...


...The nine zebu breeds in Cameroon and Nigeria are closely
related and are **stabilized hybrids** of Indian Bos indicus and
African/European Bos taurus. They are also highly diverged
from their counterpart taurines. High **genetic divergence**
between the Bos species in Africa, Europe and India is
supportive evidence that they could have been domesticated
independently.

'Nuff said!

---

quote:

---

Following Gautier (1980, 1984)...these early Holocene groups were cattle pastorolists who brought their herds into the desert for grazing after summer rains, coming into the desert from some yet unidentified area where wild cattle were present and where the initial steps toward domestication first occured (Wendorf et al. 1984: 420 - 422; Wendorf and Schild 1994). This may have been the Nile Valley, between the First and Second cataracts, because wild cattle had been present in that area (and a major prey animal since the middle Paleolithic; Gautier 1968), as were people with lithic industries closely similar to those in the early Holocene sites in the western desert.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marc Washington:
.
.

http://www.beforebc.de/400_neareast/08-10-00-16.html

.
.

---

 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 



The Kushites brought humped cattle to Egypt as gifts. Check out the humped cattle in the bottom panel.



Sudanese cattle



.
 

---

Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

You are wrong the Zebu has been in Africa since 1800 BC, not BP.

---

Really? My source is this:
http://dagris.ilri.cgiar.org/display.asp?ID=77

What is your's?
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
Here is a depiction of humped cattle from Kerma .




Carlos Magnavita1, Ancient Humped Cattle in Africa: A View from the Chad Basin ,African Archaeological Review, 2006


(1) J.W. Goethe-Universität Frankfurt, Institut für archäologische Wissenschaften, Archäologie und Archäobotanik Afrikas, Grüneburgplatz 1, 60323 Frankfurt/M, Germany

Published online: 29 November 2006

Abstract The origins of ancient and modern African cattle are still a matter of much debate among researchers. Part of the dispute involves the question of the appearance in Africa, from the second millennium BC onwards, of cattle carrying a distinguishing morphological feature present in most of the modern sub-Saharan breeds: The hump. This paper addresses the issue of the origins of the African humped cattle. After reviewing the current hypothesis on their origins, the status and significance of old and new archaeological and osteological evidence from the Chad Basin are presented and critically discussed. Mainly based on the cultural context of the archaeological figurative evidence available in the remaining continent, a case for the foreign ancestry of the ancient African humped cattle is made, and a perspective for future research in the topic is provided.

Ancient Humped Cattle in Africa: A View from the Chad Basin African Archaeological Review, 2006
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
Fulani Boran Cattle

quote:

---

The earliest evidence for humped cattle on the continent, provided by Egyptian tomb paintings of the XIIth Dynasty, do not appear until the second millennium BC, which suggests that the Egyptian civilization may have played a role in the introduction of zebu into the continent. Today, most modern breeds have an appreciable zebu ancestry, which attests to a major secondary introduction.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

As in the genetic study by E.M. Ibeagha-Awemu et
al of the Institute of Animal Breeding and Genetics,
Justus-Liebig University, Giessen, Germany posted
above, all the literature classes Fulani cattle as
Zebu (Bos indicus).

---

That labeling would be incorrect, for even your OWN sources acknowledge that the Fulani breed is IN FACT not Bos Indicus, but a hybrid product of Bos Indicus with the local west African breeds of Bos Taurus. If it is a hybrid between these two cattle sub-species, how can it be suddenly become Bos Indicus, and disavowing its African lineage?

YOUR source...


...The nine zebu breeds in Cameroon and Nigeria are closely
related and are **stabilized hybrids** of Indian Bos indicus and
African/European Bos taurus. They are also highly diverged
from their counterpart taurines. High **genetic divergence**
between the Bos species in Africa, Europe and India is
supportive evidence that they could have been domesticated
independently.

'Nuff said!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

Nope, my source consistently labels the Fulani
cattle as Bos indicus as do all others who use
the scientific name when listing cattle.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:
To Clyde,

For all your lengthy spam-fillers, here's a question to stump you with:

Produce one published genetic material that genetically places the genesis or origin of the Fulani cattle in eastern Africa rather than western Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:

Your answer to this will determine if you actually use your wit to analyze published material, or whether you simply parrot whatever it is that you read, without secondary thinking!

---

• related and are **stabilized hybrids** of Indian Bos indicus and African/European Bos taurus.

• 
  They are also highly diverged from their counterpart taurines.

• High **genetic divergence** between the Bos species in Africa, Europe and India is
  supportive evidence that they could have been domesticated independently.

^...which tells any clear-headed thinking person right there, that African cattle heritage CANNOT be dismissed out of hand!
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Department of Animal Sciences, Oklahoma State University data: http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/

Fulani Sudanese

Photo provided by Larry W. Harms

Place of Origin Mali, inland delta of Niger River
Uses Zebu
Relationship to other breeds Adamawa (Cameroon), Diali (Niger), Fellata (Chad), Gobra (Senegal), Red Bororo, White Fulani (Nigeria)
Characteristics Not available
Breed Societies French Peul
Synonyms Hausa Filani, Fulani or Fulawa. Singular Fula or Fulah.
Proscribed Names Kanouri (Chad) Fellata or Filata


Red Fulani or Mbororo

Photo provided by Larry W. Harms

Place of Origin East Niger, NorthNigeria, West Chad, and North Cameroon
Uses Meat
Relationship to other breeds West African (long lyrehorned) Zebu type
Characteristics Mahagony
Breed Societies Hausa Abori, Rahadji or Rahaji, Fulani Bodadi (Wodabe tribe)
Synonyms Brahaza, Djafoun (Cameroon), Fellata (Chad and Ethiopia), Fogha, Gabassaé, Gadéhé, Hanagamba, Kréda (Chad), Mbororo, Rahaza, Red Fulani, Red Longhorn
Proscribed Names not Boro, Borroro


Reference: I.L.Mason. (1996). A world dictionary of livestock breeds, types and varieties. CAB INTERNATIONAL
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
In the above sources there is no dispute as to the African
origin of African Zebu. That's why they call them African
Zebu in distinction to Indian Zebu. The label is based
on the indicators that make for classifying cattle as
either indicus or taurus.

From the start I've pointed to the hybrid nature of
African Zebu and have also posted peer reviewd material
showing the hybrid nature of Bos taurus whether African
or European and the hybrid nature of Bos indica. Admixture
does not make Bos indicus less than Bos indicus. Nor
does admixture make Bos taurus less than Bos taurus.
The predominance of the mix makes Bos fall into categories
of indicine or taurine.

After asking a few times I await peer reviewed reports
explicitly stating that the breeds in the table produced
in an earlier post are not Bos indicus. Lacking said
report disclaimers to the scientific labeling of Fulani
cattle as Bos indicus remain a privately held unsupported
opinion of a layman unfamiliar with what those near and
dear to the subject have scientifically declared through
their genetic analyses. I can only suggest writing the
cited sources and informing them that they don't know
what they're talking about after they already plainly
state that African Bos indicus are hybrid indicines not
hybrid taurines nor plain hybrids being neither indicine
nor taurine. Please share their responses.

NOTE: Diasporan African humans are hybrids yet they are
classed as blacks but not as neither black, white, red, brown
nor yellow.
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:
To Clyde,

For all your lengthy spam-fillers, here's a question to stump you with:

Produce one published genetic material that genetically places the genesis or origin of the Fulani cattle in eastern Africa rather than western Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

In the above sources there is no dispute as to the African
origin of African Zebu. That's why they call them African
Zebu in distinction to Indian Zebu.

---

quote:

---

The label is based
on the indicators that make for classifying cattle as
either indicus or taurus.

---

quote:

---

From the start I've pointed to the hybrid nature of
African Zebu

---

quote:

---

and have also posted peer reviewd material
showing the hybrid nature of Bos taurus whether African
or European and the hybrid nature of Bos indica.

---

quote:

---

Admixture
does not make Bos indicus less than Bos indicus. Nor
does admixture make Bos taurus less than Bos taurus.

---

quote:

---

After asking a few times I await peer reviewed reports
explicitly stating that the breeds in the table produced
in an earlier post are not Bos indicus.

---

quote:

---

Lacking said report disclaimers to the scientific labeling of Fulani cattle as Bos indicus remain a privately held unsupported opinion of a layman unfamiliar

---

quote:

---

NOTE: Diasporan African humans are hybrids yet they areclassed as blacks but not as neither black, white, red, brown nor yellow.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

I never said they originated in East Africa. I believe they originated in the Sahara.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

I never said they originated in East Africa. I believe they originated in the Sahara.

---

Well, almost all the genetic sources I have come across make no qualms about specifying where the Fulani cattle originate: Western Africa! Can you specify where else you presume they originated "in the Sahara", if not western Africa?

---

They originated in the same location where the Fulani originated which was the Sahara not West Africa.


The Kushites brought humped cattle to Egypt as gifts. Check out the humped cattle in the bottom panel.



Fulani cattle look similar to the Kushite gift.


Photo provided by Larry W. Harms


.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Once, twice, more than three times labeled zebu.


Originally posted by alTakruri 23 July, 2009 01:46 PM :

The following breeds ARE Zebu (Bos Indicus) per E. M. Ibeagha-Awemu.


Bos indicus (zebu) breeds in Cameroon
* Red Bororo
* White Fulani
* Banyo Gudali
* Ngaoundere Gudali

Bos indicus (zebu) breeds in Nigeria
* Red Bororo
* White Fulani
* Sokoto Gudali
* Adamawa Gudali
* Wadara

quote:

---

The results of several investigations have also indicated
that African zebu cattle are an admixture of Bos indicus
and Bos taurus. The levels of Asian zebu genes in the
African breeds are different and need to be determined for
each breed. Some studies have estimated zebu admixture
levels at about 50.0% to 83.0% in African zebus ...

. . . .

Indian zebu genetic proportions in the African zebus ranged from
58.1% (Ngaoundere Gudali) to 74.0% (Nigerian Red Bororo).



. . . .

The unrooted tree of phylogeny shows a clear separation
between the African zebus and taurine breeds (Fig. 2).
Eight of the zebu breeds are to be found in a tight cluster
at one end and two taurine breeds ... at the other end.



. . . .

It is clear from this study that Bos taurus (European and
African) and Bos indicus cattle possess very distinct allelic
distributions and that zebu breeds in Cameroon and Nigeria
have a mixture of both African/European Bos taurus and
Indian zebu alleles, ...

... The very close relationship for the zebu breeds in Cameroon
and Nigeria was surprising. The breeds are quite distinct
phenotypically and one would have expected this to be reflected
in the dendrogram and PC of relationships. Even though it is
considered that the Gudalis are among the true shorthorn zebus
of West Africa, an examination of the mY1 admixed coefficients
gave this credit rather to the Nigerian Red Bororo. ...

. . . .

It is concluded from this study that cattle breeds in Cameroon
and Nigeria are a unique part of the global animal genetic resource.

... The nine zebu breeds in Cameroon and Nigeria are closely
related and are stabilized hybrids of Indian Bos indicus and
African/European Bos taurus. They are also highly diverged
from their counterpart taurines. High genetic divergence
between the Bos species in Africa, Europe and India is
supportive evidence that they could have been domesticated
independently.



Genetic diversity, introgression and relationships
among West/Central African cattle breeds
Genet. Sel. Evol. 36 (2004) 673–690

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:


The West African Zebu cattle consist of two main groups: the Gudali group (Adamawa, Sokoto) and the Fulani group.

The Fulani have been classified further into two groups: the lyre-horned subgroup consisting of Senegalese Fulani (or the Gobra), the Sudanese Fulani, and the White Fulani (or Bunaji); and long-horned subgroup represented by the Red Fulani (or Rahaji). Diali (or Djeli) is a strain of Fulani found on the flood plains of Niger river in Niger and south-west Nigeria (Rege 1999; Rege and Tawah, 1999). - cdad-is.org

---

code:

---

     A. Gudali
       1. Adamawa
       2. Sokoto


     B. Fulani
       1. lyre-horned
         a. Senegalese Fulani (or Gobra)
         b. Sudanese Fulani
         c. White Fulani(or Bunaji)

       2. long-horned
         a. Red Fulani (Rahaji)

---

 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
One need only examine this table to see the hybrid
nature of the studied African taurines.



Namchi are ~30% Indian zebu
Muturu are 'pure' taurine
N'Dama are ~8% Indian zebu

If a breed is not 'pure' then it is 'hybrid.'
Namchi and N'Dama are hybrid. The European
taurines have less indicus in them (< ~4%) than
do the Namchi and N'Dama.

This table also shows that the Ongole breed of
Indian zebu is between 2% and 20% of African
taurine admixture.

As per the labels used and the admixture proportions
given, we see that despite admixture Bos indicus stays
Bos indicus and Bos taurus remains Bos taurus.

The issue here is not with the geographic origin
of Fulani but their classification as genetically
and phenotypically indicus. A look into cattle
classification is in order to ascertain the set
of specifications that make a breed indicus or
taurus in our topic.

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:

These reports are at odds with your idea of the African Bos Taurus being a "hybrid" product.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

Here's where your source notes the Fulani are zebu.

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:


The West African [/qb]Zebu cattle consist of two main groups: the Gudali group (Adamawa, Sokoto) and the Fulani group.

The Fulani have been classified further into two groups: the lyre-horned subgroup consisting of Senegalese Fulani (or the Gobra), the Sudanese Fulani, and the White Fulani (or Bunaji); and long-horned subgroup represented by the Red Fulani (or Rahaji). Diali (or Djeli) is a strain of Fulani found on the flood plains of Niger river in Niger and south-west Nigeria (Rege 1999; Rege and Tawah, 1999). - cdad-is.org

---

So there you have your source listing four Fulani breeds as zebu.

WEST AFRICAN ZEBU

code:

---

     A. Gudali
       1. Adamawa
       2. Sokoto


     B. Fulani
       1. lyre-horned
         a. Senegalese Fulani (or Gobra)
         b. Sudanese Fulani
         c. White Fulani(or Bunaji)

       2. long-horned
         a. Red Fulani (Rahaji)

---

---

Never said "my source" was correct in naming the Fulani a Zebu, did I?

However, I did cite my source, precisely because it maintains that the Fulani cattle is of western African origin. That's the reason I cited my source, but better luck next time.

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

One need only examine this table to see the hybrid
nature of the studied African taurines.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

They originated in the same location where the Fulani originated which was the Sahara not West Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:

Your table does not establish that the African Bos Taurine is a hybrid breed. That is the conclusion "you" erroneously gleaned from your sources table, on your own. You are putting words in your source's mouth, to reach a strange conclusion about the African Bos Taurus that NO source supports.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

The issue here is not with the geographic origin
of Fulani

---

quote:

---

but their classification as genetically
and phenotypically indicus.

---

quote:

---

A look into cattle
classification is in order to ascertain the set
of specifications that make a breed indicus or
taurus in our topic.

---

Actually, contrary to your belief, word is that the so-called names attributed are in fact primarily one of a superficial one, i.e. morphological traits, rather than one materially premised on genetic facts...

See for example:



This is where and why one comes across terms like "Zeboid" as well, as noted above.
 

---

Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

If a breed is not 'pure' then it is 'hybrid.'
Namchi and N'Dama are hybrid. This table also shows that the Ongole breed of
Indian zebu is between 2% and 20% of African
taurine admixture.

---

You miss the point really. There is such a thing as the genesis of the African Bos Taurus, which is an "original" phylogenetic unit on its own that is independent from either Bos Indicus or "Near Eastern"/European Bos Taurus. For some odd reason, you seem to get this idea that the African Bos Taurus came about from crossbreeding event(s) involving either of the latter entities, which is just, well, unfounded nonsense.

An illustration to supplement genetic reports I already fed you with earlier, including your own, is in order...

quote:

---

As per the labels used and the admixture proportions
given, we see that despite admixture Bos indicus stays
Bos indicus and Bos taurus remains Bos taurus.

---

Your tables are but just a snapshot of African bovine genome in the samples undertaken. This means that you are not getting a broad enough or coherent picture of the contributing source elements; one has to realize that these cattle are domesticated livestock, and as such, are likely to be under selective pressure at certain or select loci. They were for the most part, intentionally crossbred to impart new sets of biological advantages to the source bovine lines in question. What does this mean? Well, it goes back to that 'thing' about certain loci being under selective pressure to impart selective advantage, and hence, liable to be insufficient in accurately providing a comprehensive reflection of the "source" gene pools involved. And just to demonstrate how so, consider what uniparental typing reveals for instance...











While the distribution of classic uniparental markers may be subject to pressures of random genetic drift, possibly breeding selection trends, and effects of population size, it is generally free from restriction meted out by 'selective pressure'. So, these markers give a reasonable reflection of major discrete elements involved in the source gene pool(s).

Alas, I don't expect you to understand a thing related in here.
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

They originated in the same location where the Fulani originated which was the Sahara not West Africa.

---

Which is where? Or are you under the impression that the Sahara and west Africa are mutually exclusive, and that the former is some kind of an extraterrestrial entity, LOL?


Specify!

---

Note Sahara



The area partitioned in Red is the Senegambia where the Fulani live





As you can see from these pictures West Africa is not part of the Sahara, especially the Senegambia and Nigeria.




.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:
For some odd reason, you seem to get this idea that the African Bos Taurus came about from crossbreeding event(s) involving either of the latter entities, ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Note Sahara

---

Noted! Now, Clyde, I suspect you are past kindergarten level schooling: Where in the Sahara do you presume the Fulani cattle originated?

If need be, here is a map to assist you:


 

---

Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:

For some odd reason, you seem to get this idea that the African Bos Taurus came about from crossbreeding event(s) involving either of the latter entities, ...

---

Strawman: these are your words not mine.

---

quote:

---

If there's
something you don't understand then politely ask and
I can elaborate.

---

quote:

---

This started when in reply to RW&B+C I wrote
"As was posted a month ago in one of these Peuhl
threads, Aryan (Indian) origin theory for Fulani is
based on their cattle -- a type of zebu -- "

How anyone can misconstrue that and make into an
announcement of the very first African taurines
10,000 or so years ago into being part indicus is
beyond me (especially since Ibeagha-Awemu's table

---

quote:

---

The cattle of the Fulani people living today and
as seen by the Euro ethnologists a century or two
ago are "a type of zebu," African zebu.

---

quote:

---

These ethnologists, not knowing the genesis of
African zebu, made an assumption that the Fulani
people were originally Indian because of their
herds of zebu also wrongly assumed to be Indian
zebu.

---

quote:

---

The cry of Fulani cattle not being zebu is foolish.

---

quote:

---

They are zebu, African zebu, as their physical
characteristics and their genetics make clear.

---

quote:

---

You are quite simply in gross error when you said
Fulani cattle are "NOT zebu".

---

quote:

---

You have become
increasingly emotional over the issue unable to cite
facts

---

quote:

---

Of course this is but a ploy to turn a civil discussion
sharing facts into a do or die debate where one person
has to be a winner and let te facts be damned.

---

quote:

---

All that aside, I'm comfortable with the fact of
Fulani cattle being zebu as academics and beef
and dairy professionals atest. Until they say
otherwise I say the Fulani are zebu.

---

quote:

---

Now go on and have the last word, after which the
Fulani cattle will still remain what they are, zebu.

---

I've had the last word from the onset, as you have been unable to demonstrate why the Fulani cattle should simply be deemed "Bos Indicus" despite their "hybrid" ancestry. Parroting people doesn't make an idea correct!
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
[ Note Sahara

Here is West Africa



As I said before West Africa is not part of the Sahran zone. The Fulani originated in the Saharan Highlands not West Africa.
 

---

Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

[ Note Sahara

Here is West Africa



As I said before West Africa is not part of the Sahran zone. The Fulani originated in the Saharan Highlands not West Africa.

---

BS. You don't know how to read your own half-baked maps. But do please try again:

Where in the Sahara do you presume the Fulani cattle originated?

If need be, here is a map to assist you:

[/QUOTE]

Do you believe this map is incorrect, and that the Sahara doesn't not venture into western Africa? The answer to this should be interesting...
 

---

Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
Hey, Clyde, let me confuse you with this question:

Is Morocco and Algeria in western Africa or not?

Another question to confuse you with...

Produce a single genetic source that places Fulani cattle origin anywhere but western Africa!

The level of ignorance that keeps creeping up on this board is astonishing.
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:
Hey, Clyde, let me confuse you with this question:

Is Morocco and Algeria in western Africa or not?

Another question to confuse you with...

Produce a single genetic source that places Fulani cattle origin anywhere but western Africa!

The level of ignorance that keeps creeping up on this board is astonishing.

---

Morocco is part of North Afica.


.
 

---

Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
^Lol @ Morocco is in north Africa; well, where: west, central, or east?

Ps - Do you not believe that say -- Mali, Niger, Senegal, Mauritania, Burkina Faso are part of North Africa?

Where does North Africa begin and end, and according to what parameters?
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:
^Lol @ Morocco is in north Africa; well, where: west, central, or east?

Ps - Do you not believe that say -- Mali, Niger, Senegal, Mauritania, Burkina Faso are part of North Africa?

Where does North Africa begin and end, and according to what parameters?

---