So many studies giving so many results and yet in all the cases I have seen very little archaeological evidence and fossil evidence to back up these percentages which leads me to be believe that ascertainment bias is playing a huge role in skewed results. Its been awhile since I have posted up on this so bear with me lol
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
There's 2 main bias in those population structure studies imo: 1- The SNP ascertainment bias 2- Sample bias
Sample bias is when the people sampled (often as low as 20 people, often even lower) are not representative of the population they are labelled with.
For example can 28 Afar be representative of all the Afar? Maybe those 28 particular Afar are more or less admixed than the majority of the Afar. We don't know, but we know the sample size is very small.
For example, taking only 28 people would make an horrible election day poll survey.
Another example of sample bias is when the samples of 75-5 people are taken from the same location (the same clinic). Which is often the case.
For example, Afar all taken from the capital city or trading cities, which are often more cosmopolitan and thus more admixed.
Or Afar all taken from one town or region:
Are Afar in Djibouti the same as Afar in Ethiopia?
Or are Afar in coastal Djibouti the same as Afar in Djibouti interior?
To mitigate the effect of sample bias you need larger population samples taken from many different locations.
When you see studies always look at the sample sizes, try to consider at what location(s) the samples were taken, and you must take both the SNP ascertainment bias and the sample bias into consideration.
In general, we must never forger those are estimate. The numbers are not representative of the real situation since those are only estimate. They are representative of the samples. So always allow some room in your analysis. 20% can be 10% or 35% from the "same" population in other samples. So you can't see a number as being definite.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
I've discussed the SNP Ascertainment Bias in another post:
The SNP Ascertainment Bias is mentioned, among other places, in the Pagani study called "Ethiopian Genetic Diversity Reveals Linguistic Stratification and Complex Influences on the Ethiopian Gene Pool". It is also discussed more generally in the linked study in my analysis below.
quote:The Semitic-Cushitic and North African populations showed the highest values of heterozygosity worldwide, which may reflect a combination of SNP ascertainment bias and the mixture of African and non-African components in these populations.
Usually African populations have a much higher level of heterozygosity than European or North African population. The effect of SNP ascertainment bias is a consequence of the SNP discovery process where a sub-set of European population are used. This translate in bias PCA analysis and Admixture software proportion of admixture (in favor of Eurasian SNPs/clusters). This SNP ascertainment bias is common in many SNP microarray. In general, all such analysis based on a pre-selected group of SNPs/microarray must always take this SNP ascertainment bias in consideration when analyzing population admixture and affiliation. Hopefully, in the future full genome analysis could end this bias toward non-African and Eurasian SNPs. Still those "admixture" and PCAs analysis have their use, but everything must be put in perspective and any bias taken into consideration. So when you see such admixture software analysis with all the K colors always consider this.
Bottom line, we're the one who must consider the effect of the ascertainment bias and sample bias into our analysis. Never see any numbers and studies as being definitive.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.: So many studies giving so many results and yet in all the cases I have seen very little archaeological evidence and fossil evidence
It may because a lot of the admixture in the Horn of Africa populations is more recent than most archaeological fossils studied. Also Horners are composed of various populations, speaking different languages for example, so you must take this into account too.
We can see more historical (trading, migrations) and cultural evidences in languages and religions.
For example, Ethio-Semitic speakers (Ge'ez , Tingrinya, Amharic, Tigre, Gurage, etc) are generally more admixed than their Cushitic counterparts. The entry of ethio-semitic language into the Horn of Africa by basic logic must postdate the existence and birth of the (proto) Semitic languages in the Middle East.
While still susceptible to sample bias, Y-DNA and mtDNA analysis don't suffer from the same ascertainment bias. Although they are affected by genetic drift. So uniparental haplogroups analysis must also be taken into considerations. In general, you must take into account all autosomal SNP, STR and uniparental data and always keep in mind those are estimates who may not be representative of the whole population they are labelled with.
In general, the Horn of Africa populations, as any borderline states in the world, are admixed with neighboring population at various degrees depending on which populations in the region you talk about.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Full article
Ancient west Eurasian ancestry in southern and eastern Africa
You have too much of an American mindset when it comes to old world genetics. In general old world populations that have not been recently formed have uniform autosomal DNA.
Racial admixture does not vary from individual to individual in most Northeast African ethnicities. It varies from ethnic group to ethnic group, not from individual to individual. Wild individual variance like you see in the new world is extremely rare and unlikely.
In general, if you take just one random autosomal sample from an old world ethnic group, you get the genetic profile of +90% of its members.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
^He thinks the "true" Afar, Oromo etc. have somehow not been sampled yet and all the samples so far are due to sampling biases. As for why all "True Afar" samples would conveniently "remain at large", no coherent explanation is ever given. Not that he needs one; conspiracy theories are known to require leaps of faith. If you think Xyyman is out there, wait til you read what this guy subscribes to.
This is a "True Afar", supposedly genetically different from his somewhat lighter skinned compatriots.
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^He thinks the "true" Afar, Oromo etc. have not been sampled yet. If you think Xyyman is out there, wait til you read what this guy subscribes to.
Oromos from all over the place have been sampled in various studies.
However, Oromos are the most problematic ethnic group in the Horn as they were only recently formed (1500s-1600s onwards).
Oromos from the Western and Central highlands are autosomally the same as Amharas (see Pagani et al. 2012). This study used Oromos from the Welega and Shewa provinces (areas near Addis). Oromos from the Eastern parts are autosomally the same as Somalis (see Lazaridis et al. 2013). This study used Oromos from the Bale province.
With most other ethnic groups like Tigrays, Somalis, Amharas etc.. the autosomal profiles are more uniform.
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: This is a "True Afar", supposedly genetically different from his somewhat lighter skinned compatriots.
OMG...
I thought he was somewhat scientific at first, but now I have to stop taking him serious.
Phenotype variance within ethnic groups has nothing to do with autosomal profiles.
An Amhara who looks like Haile Selassie or the Ethiopian soccer coach Sewnet Bishaw can have very similar autosomal genetics, but still look quite different.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Afar man:
Afar Warrior dancing:
Afar Tribe Warrior, Assaita:
Afar man in cattle market:
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
Afars are genetically homogenous despite the phenotype diversity.
Pagani and Lazaridis used unrelated Afars from different locations and their genetic results were the same. Chances of that happening to a recently mixed ethnic group are close to zero.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Manu: Afars are genetically homogenous despite the phenotype diversity.
Pagani and Lazaridis used unrelated Afars from different locations and their genetic results were the same. Chances of that happening to a recently mixed ethnic group are close to zero.
Are you saying that therefore the Afar according to Pickrell are basically across the board 46% West Eurasian?
Ancient west Eurasian ancestry in southern and eastern Africa Joseph K. Pickrell et al. 2014
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Are you saying that therefore the Afar according to Pickrell are basically across the board 46% West Eurasian?
Yes, he used genuine Afars.
The West Eurasian DNA in the Horn is very old.
Up to 23,000 years possible (that is before humans lived in the Americas).
^That's where we differ. The autosomal component discussed in that link is equidistant between Eurasians and Africans. That doesn't gel with a wholesale origin in West Asia.
quote:Originally posted by Manu: An Amhara who looks like Haile Selassie or the Ethiopian soccer coach Sewnet Bishaw can have very similar autosomal genetics, but still look quite different.
Indeed. His "true Afar" obviously are included in the autosomal profiles he's in denial about because per Pagani et al 2012, 75% of their Afar sample have the ancestral SLC24A5 variant, which, according to various sources, accounts for ~30% skin colour differences relative to individuals who don't have it. In other words, these dark skinned Afar ARE a subset of Pagani's Afar, they are not "missing" from these samples.
When you get down to the genetic material of these populations, darker skin in Lowland East Cushitic speakers simply means MORE of the same Eastern Sahara component, expressed as E-M35 and various L3 clades uniparentally or as what Hodgson et al 2014 call the "Ethio-Somali" component. Somalis, Rendille and Borana are as dark-skinned as these people get and they don't have more West-African ancestry per se than lighter skinned Ethiopians, like the Amhara.
The same goes for non-Cushitic speaking Ethiopian populations like the Hamer, who once were written off as "Bantus" due to their prevalence of what has been stereotyped as African features.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote: archaeological evidence is not completely absent. During this time period, architecture in the Ethiopian culture of D’mt has an “unmistakable South Arabian appearance in many details” (19), although there is some debate as to whether these patterns can be attributed to large movements of people versus elite-driven cultural practices (19, 20). Additionally, linguistic evidence suggests that this time period was when Ethiosemitic languages were introduced to Africa, presumably from southern Arabia (21). It is perhaps not a coincidence that the highest levels of west Eurasian ancestry in eastern Africa are found in the Amhara and Tygray, who speak Ethiosemitic languages and live in what was previously the territory of D’mt and the later kingdom of Aksum.
Ancient west Eurasian ancestry in southern and eastern Africa Joseph K. Pickrell et al. 2014
The Tigray, 50.4% West Eurasian according to Pickrell (photo Rod Washington flickr)
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
You are losing me. I am holding back tears. This is your opportunity to clarify?
quote:Originally posted by Manu:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: This is a [.
OMG...
Phenotype variance within ethnic groups has nothing to do with autosomal profiles.
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Indeed. His "true Afar" obviously are included in the autosomal profiles he's in denial about because per Pagani et al 2012, 75% of their Afar sample have the ancestral SLC24A5 variant, which, according to various sources, accounts for ~30% skin colour differences relative to individuals who don't have it. In other words, these dark skinned Afar ARE a subset of Pagani's Afar, they are not "missing" from these samples.
When you get down to the genetic material of these populations, darker skin in East Lowland Cushitic speakers simply means MORE of the same Eastern Sahara component, expressed as E-M35 and various L3 clades uniparentally or as what Hodgson et al 2014 call the "Ethio-Somali" component. Somalis, Rendille and Borana are as dark-skinned as these people get and they don't have more West-African ancestry per se than lighter skinned Ethiopians, like the Amhara. The same goes non-Cushitic speaking Ethiopian populations like the Hamer, who once were written off as "Bantus" due to their prevalence of what has been stereotyped as African features.
I don't think that SLC24A5 is the only gene that controls for lighter skin.
SLC24A5 frequencies (rs1426654-A allele freq)
Wolayta 62.5% Amhara 57.7% Tygray 57.1% Somali 55.0% Oromo 38.1% Afar 25.0% Ari cultivator 22.9% Ari blacksmith 11.8% Gumuz 7.9% South Sudanese 2.1% Anuak 0.0%
Table S7. - Pagani et al. 2012
The Wolayta and Amhara should be the lightest, and South Sudanese and Anuak the darkest.
The Afars seem to have the lowest levels of this ''light skin'' gene out of the Semitic-Cushitic groups. Despite this, they are more Eurasian than the Wolayta who have it at a higher level than them. So, I have my doubts on the accuracy of this gene.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Manu: I don't think that SLC24A5 is the only gene that controls for lighter skin.
Absolutely agree
quote:Originally posted by Manu: The Afars seem to have the lowest levels of this ''light skin'' gene out of the Semitic-Cushitic groups. Despite this, they are more Eurasian than the Wolayta who have it at a higher level than them. So, I have my doubts on the accuracy of this gene.
Read Pagani. It's under positive selection in Ethiopia for whatever reason. Therefore, it doesn't have to correlate neatly with more "West Eurasian" ancestry. Most of the West Asian ancestry is very ancient as you said earlier (e.g. T-PS21), so the derived SLC24A5 percentages are bogus anyway (derived SLC24A5 is not that old that it would reflect old West Asian admixture in Ethiopia).
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
@Swenet,
Makes sense I guess.
I have to say that you seem to be the most knowledgeable on African genetics relative to the other posters here.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Can someone help me out here? I am new to genetics and I need a pat on my back... or "at a boy" stroking.
When you say West Eurasian you are talking Europe vs Arabia cf Ethiopia? I have never been to Africa so I have no idea what is an Afra vs an Oromo.
Quote: Read Pagani. It's under positive selection in Ethiopia for whatever reason. Therefore, it doesn't have to correlate neatly with more "West Eurasian" ancestry. Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] Can someone help me out here? I am new to genetics and I need a pat on my back... stroking.
When you say West Eurasian you are talking Europe vs Arabia cf Ethiopia?
West Eurasia is Europe and the Middle East
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
Eurasians are split up in 3 broad ''races''
West Eurasians (also known as ''Caucasoids''). East Eurasians (also known as ''Mongoloids''). South Eurasians (also known as ''Australoids'').
The Eurasian ancestry in Northeast Africa is only affiliated with West Eurasians.
Although haplogroup M1 is still a mystery... It may have been spread by people who were Australoid, but Australoid autosomal admixture is not found in Northeast Africa.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Sarcasm ?? The English Language.....forget it
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
.
Haplgogroup M, highest diversity in India btw
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
@Manu
Who knows? You should stick around. Readers need a different viewpoint from what they've been spoon-fed here. Lots of leaving out and covering up inconvenient data. I'm out for now. Good luck for when Amun comes back and the floodgates of pseudo-science will open up.
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote: archaeological evidence is not completely absent. During this time period, architecture in the Ethiopian culture of D’mt has an “unmistakable South Arabian appearance in many details” (19), although there is some debate as to whether these patterns can be attributed to large movements of people versus elite-driven cultural practices (19, 20). Additionally, linguistic evidence suggests that this time period was when Ethiosemitic languages were introduced to Africa, presumably from southern Arabia (21). It is perhaps not a coincidence that the highest levels of west Eurasian ancestry in eastern Africa are found in the Amhara and Tygray, who speak Ethiosemitic languages and live in what was previously the territory of D’mt and the later kingdom of Aksum.
Ancient west Eurasian ancestry in southern and eastern Africa Joseph K. Pickrell et al. 2014
The Tigray, 50.4% West Eurasian according to Pickrell (photo Rod Washington flickr)
This is where I draw the line, there is evidence for an influence from ancient Ethiopia into Arabia as well, teh influences went both ways, and yet the text assumes all geneflow was one way from Arabia to Africa.
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.: This is where I draw the line, there is evidence for an influence from ancient Ethiopia into Arabia as well, teh influences went both ways, and yet the text assumes all geneflow was one way from Arabia to Africa.
@Charlie,
The majority of the West Eurasian ancestry in the Horn of Africa is from areas near Egypt and the Levant.
Not Arabia, only a small portion of the recent Semitic ancestry is (less than 10%).
Most of it is from Egypt/Fertile Crescent according to Pagani and Hodgson .
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
^^ DNAtribes are not academic. They are a company.
Actual studies show that Horn Africans have more ancient ancestry from Egypt and the Med basin than from Arabia.
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
Quote:
''The non-African component [of Ethiopians] was found to be more similar to populations inhabiting the Levant rather than the Arabian Peninsula''
quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.: This is where I draw the line, there is evidence for an influence from ancient Ethiopia into Arabia as well, teh influences went both ways, and yet the text assumes all geneflow was one way from Arabia to Africa.
@Charlie,
The majority of the West Eurasian ancestry in the Horn of Africa is from areas near Egypt and the Levant.
Not Arabia, only a small portion of the recent Semitic ancestry is (less than 10%).
Most of it is from Egypt/Fertile Crescent according to Pagani and Hodgson .
How does that make sense. Egypt is not West Eurasia
""areas near Egypt and the Levant."
^^ name these areas please
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: How does that make sense. Egypt is not West Eurasia
Egyptians are racially akin to West Eurasians. Including their ancient counterparts.
Oh boy... this is not going to fly here.
The genetic difference between Egyptians and Palestinians is very small.
Egyptians are genetically much closer to Syrians than to the Habesha, Beja etc..
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Manu:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: How does that make sense. Egypt is not West Eurasia
Egyptians are racially akin to West Eurasians. Including their ancient counterparts.
Oh boy... this is not going to fly here.
The genetic difference between Egyptians and Palestinians is very small.
Egyptians are genetically much closer to Syrians than to the Habesha, Beja etc..
Did DNA Tribes Amarna or Rameses III reports have an ulterior motive? Weren't they using JAMA data?
The other DNA testing company DNA consultants? They cited a strongest correlation between Sudanese Copt DNA and ancient Egyptians and Sudanses Copts are recent coverts
Are these companies all wrong?
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
There have never been any proper autosomal studies on Ancient Egyptians.
Just some vague haplogroup (lineages) stuff that is not as concrete as autosomal full genome DNA.
My bet is that once full genome analysis is performed on Ancient Egyptians they will be predominantly West Eurasian, and less Sub-Saharan than modern Egyptians.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Manu:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Are you saying that therefore the Afar according to Pickrell are basically across the board 46% West Eurasian?
Yes, he used genuine Afars.
Pickrell used the same samples of 12 Afar from the Pagani study.
The sample of 12 Afar in the Pagani study were taken from the Wag Hemra zone which is a Amhara region of Ethiopia and Amharic are Semitic speakers. If those 12 Afar are from the Ahmara region, there's a good chance they are admixed to some higher degree with Amhara people. Possibly making them not perfect representative of Afar from other countries and regions.
It's the same for any such small samples size.
The location of Afar samples in the Pagani and Pickrell study can be seen in Table S1 of the Supplemental Data of the Pagani study (Ethiopian Genetic Diversity Reveals Linguistic Stratification and Complex Influences on the Ethiopian Gene Pool).
In the Supplemental Data you can see the sample of 12 Afar were taken from the Wag Hemra zone in Ethiopia not the Afar region
Ethiopian Jews were from Isreal. Somalis were from Garissa, Kenya. Oromo were from Southeast Ethiopia.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Amun-Ra, why did you bring up the Afar in the first place in the other thread?
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
^^^The Lazaridis study didn't have the "same results" and the study only used a sample of 5 Afar (iirc).
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: ^^^The Lazaridis study didn't have the "same results" and the study only used a sample of 5 Afar (iirc).
They did have the same results.
They were slightly more Eurasian than the Somalis and on par in ''Eurasianess'' as the Ethiopian Jews or Habesha in general.
Same results.
Stop denying the truth.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Amun-Ra, why did you bring up the Afar in the first place in the other thread?
It was to show the phenotypic diversity of East African people and African people in general.
Some people try to make Horn Africans some sort of Caucasian/hamitic race but while many are highly admixed with Eurasians like Semitic speakers in Ethiopia, others are much less admixed.
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: It was to show the phenotypic diversity of East African people and African people in general.
Some people try to make Horn Africans some sort of Caucasian/hamitic race but while many are highly admixed with Eurasians like Semitic speakers in Ethiopia, others are much less admixed.
The difference in Eurasian ancestry is at most 5%-15% between Semitic and Cushitic Ethiopians
Not a huge difference. They all plot near each other. The admixture predates Semites.
Only when you throw in the Gumuz and tribal Omotics does the difference gets substantial.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Manu:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: ^^^The Lazaridis study didn't have the "same results" and the study only used a sample of 5 Afar (iirc).
They did have the same results.
They were not the same.
The proportion of Eurasian admixtures in the 2 studies were not the same.
The Lazaridis had them less admixed with Eurasian (maybe around 25%-30% at K=20).
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: They were not the same.
The proportion of Eurasian admixtures in the 2 studies were not the same.
The Lazaridis had them less admixed with Eurasian (maybe around 25%-30% at K=20).
No, the results were the same. K=20 of Lazaridis is totally different from Pagani's K results.
For more accurate comparison, look at the early K levels.
They were 50% Eurasian there, about the same as with Pagani.
Anyhow, if you still mistrust this. You can combine Pagani and Lazaridi's data and run your own admixture run (software is open source).
Pagani's and Lazaridi's Afars who are unrelated are totally the same.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
^^^Unfortunately you can't just pick and choose the K you like the most. That's not how it works.
Anyway the Lazaridis study only use 5 Afar, which can't constitute the basis for a good population structure analysis.
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: ^^^Unfortunately you can't just pick and choose the K you like the most. That's not how it works.
K=2 is practically the same in all studies (usually splits Africans and Asians).
The Afars of Lazaridi have the same Asiatic affinity as those of Pagani.
Just deal with it. North Cushitics are not very different from the Amhara and Tigray.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
My point still stands. Between the 2 studies only 17 Afar were tested. Not enough to be considered representative of Afar as a whole.
This is a graph of various Y-DNA in Ethiopian populations:
No populations has the same population structure. For example some population have larger Eurasian J Y-DNA component than others. While other populations have a much larger African E Y-DNA component than others.
Admittedly the Eurasian component is mostly female mediated in Eastern Africa.
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
Y-DNA is highly subject to patriarchal tribalism. It is a poor population genetics tool. Especially in tribes that practice patriarchy.
mtDNA is more reliable in my opinion. The differences are less extreme there.
One guy can have hundreds of children, but one woman is limited to about ten.
But autosomal DNA is the most reliable of all the population genetics tools as it scans the entire genome.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: [QB] My point still stands. Between the 2 studies only 17 Afar were tested. Not enough to be considered representative of Afar as a whole.
How many would have to be tested?
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Manu: Y-DNA is highly subject to patriarchal tribalism. It is a poor population genetics tool. Especially in tribes that practice patriarchy.
mtDNA is more reliable in my opinion. The differences are less extreme there.
But autosomal DNA is the most reliable of all the population genetics tools as it scans the entire genome.
It doesn't scan the entire genome. That's the main subject of this thread (see first post). It's scan the SNPs found in Eurasian populations. Those SNPs found in a subset of Eurasian are the ones used in the SNP microarray. So there's an SNP ascertainment bias as well as sample bias we must take into considerations. I'm sorry but 17 people in only 2 different localities doesn't mean we got the whole picture here.
It was patrilocal marriages that probably explain why the Eurasian admixtures in Ethiopians and Horn Africans is mostly female mediated.
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: It doesn't scan the entire genome. That's the main subject of this thread (see first post). It's scan the SNPs found in Eurasian populations. Those SNPs found in a subset of Eurasian are the ones used in the SNP microarray. So there's an SNP ascertainment bias as well as sample bias we must take into considerations.
Tishkoff used STRs, which are less subject to ascertainment bias and still substantial West Eurasian was found in the Beja and Ethiopian Jews.
Your ascertainment bias excuse will soon be wiped out as full genome scans will show the same results.
What will your excuse be next?
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: I'm sorry but 17 people in only 2 different localities doesn't mean we got the whole picture here.
Dude, old world ethnic groups do not have large intra population differences.
Even two samples would be sufficient as long as they are not related.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Manu:
quote: Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: I'm sorry but 17 people in only 2 different localities doesn't mean we got the whole picture here.
Dude, old world ethnic groups do not have large intra population differences.
Even two samples would be sufficient as long as they are not related.
If Arabs have been trading along the East coast of Africa for many hundreds of years since before Islam and some have intermarried with Africans and others didn't how is that variance not going to be evident genetically?
You are ignoring maritime Arabian trade in coastal countries
your old world remark is much too general
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
@the lioness,
Horn Africans do not have recent Arabian blood since Jesus was born 0 AD...
The only East Africans with real recent Arabian blood are some Swahili people on the coast of Kenya and Zanzibar.
The Cushitic East Africans never really mixed with the Islamic Arabs. Their West Asian affinities are much older and date back to the Afro-Asiatic expansion from Egypt roughly 10,000 years ago.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
If you want to talk about the Tishkoff study and try to claim old world ethnic groups are not much different from each others. Then we can see Cushitic speakers cluster much more closely with other African populations than with Eurasian populations. Same for Chadic speakers. So Eurasian admixtures in Cushitic and Chadic speakers happened ***after*** the separation of Cushitic and Chadic speakers into their current ethnic groups.
This btw, destroy your argumentation. As this show, the Cushitic and Chadic speakers received Eurasian admixture AFTER their separations into their current ethnic groups.
^ The Beja of Sudan and Ethiopian Jews had something like 40% European in that study.
As for Chadic speakers, they have almost no autosomal West Eurasian.
They have high amounts of it on their Y-DNA, but zero on mtDNA and zero on autosomal DNA.
Chadics are basically Nilotic people who adopted Afro-Asiatic.
PS. The Hausa are even worse.. they are majority Niger-Congo and similar to the Yoruba, they are not even Nilotic like the other Chadic peoples.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Manu: @the lioness,
Horn Africans do not have recent Arabian blood since Jesus was born 0 AD...
The only East Africans with real recent Arabian blood are some Swahili people on the coast of Kenya and Zanzibar.
The Cushitic East Africans never really mixed with the Islamic Arabs. Their West Asian affinities are much older and date back to the Afro-Asiatic expansion from Egypt roughly 10,000 years ago.
So you're saying the West Eurasian ancestry of East Africans mainly came from land migrations from the Levant across sinai through Egypt rather than across the red sea by boat coming from Yemen, What time period is that? How does it fit in historically?
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: So you're the West Eurasian ancestry of East Africans mainly came from land migrations from the Levant across sinai rather than across the red sea by boat
Yes..
It is extremely ancient dating back to the agricultural revolution.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Manu: ^ The Beja of Sudan and Ethiopian Jews had something like 40% European in that study.
As for Chadic speakers, they have almost no autosomal West Eurasian.
You're funny. I know Beja got a lot of Eurasian admixtures while Chadic and Cushitic speakers in that study got almost no West Eurasian admixtures. That's my point.
On the other hands many of those Cushitic and Chadic populations carry the haplogroup E1b1b in great proportions (see the Hirbo study for example), just as Somali people for example, showing they are good representative of African Afro-Asiatic speakers BEFORE THEIR RECENT ADMIXTURE WITH EURASIANS.
So Cushitic and Chadic speakers received their Eurasian admixtures "recently" (aka around 3000 years ago) AFTER their separations into their current ethnic and language groups.
Again, your whole theory falls apart in front of you.
Game, set, match.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
You see the lioness, now it is the time for me to post this:
It's gotta hurt our poor manu.
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: You're funny. I know Beja got a lot of Eurasian admixtures while Chadic and Cushitic speakers in that study got almost no West Eurasian admixtures. That's my point.
On the other hands many of those Cushitic and Chadic populations carry the haplogroup E1b1b in great proportions (see the Hirbo study for example), just as Somali people for example, showing they are good representative of African Afro-Asiatic speakers BEFORE THEIR RECENT ADMIXTURE WITH EURASIANS.
So Cushitic and Chadic speakers received their Eurasian admixtures AFTER the separation into their current ethnic and language groups.
Again, you're whole theory falls in front of you.
Game, set, match.
Wrong again.
Hodgson et al. postulates that a cluster closer to West Eurasians he labeled as ''Ethio-Somali'' is representative of the early Afro-Asiatics.
However, as those mostly West Eurasian early Afro-Asiatic peoples migrated to the Horn they encountered Nilotic people. Hence, all the light blue Nilo-Saharan that shows up in the Horn.
Sub-Saharan admixture came later in the story of Afro-Asiatic.
Chadics (real ones, not the Hausa) are full blown Nilo-Saharans with only residual traces of Afro-Asiatic (mainly on Y-DNA, not autosomal).
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Manu: Chadics (real ones, not the Hausa) are full blown Nilo-Saharans with only residual traces of Afro-Asiatic (mainly on Y-DNA, not autosomal).
Don't try to save face with lies now. Many Chadic and Cushitic speakers in the Tishkoff study carry the E1b1b haplogroups, showing they are good representative of the African Afro-Asiatic speakers before the recent admixture of Horn Africans with Ethio-Semitic speakers.
This is btw also what this following graph says, based on the Pickrell (2014) study. Which we can see HERE
^^^Even you Manu can understand this, right?
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote: Conclusions
Based on these analyses, we can propose a model for the spread of west Eurasian ancestry in southern and eastern Africa as follows. First, a large-scale movement of people from west Eurasia into Ethiopia around 3,000 y ago (perhaps from southern Arabia and associated with the D’mt kingdom and the arrival of Ethiosemitic languages ) resulted in the dispersal of west Eurasian ancestry throughout eastern Africa. This was then followed by a migration of an admixed population (perhaps pastoralists related to speakers of Khoe–Kwadi languages) from eastern Africa to southern Africa, with admixture occurring ∼1,500 y ago. Advances in genotyping DNA from archaeological samples may allow aspects of this model to be directly tested.
Fourth, a unique East African lactase persistence allele is found at its highest frequency in the Maasai [75] who have about 21% Ethio-Somali ancestry (Table S5). This lactase persistence allele is different from the alleles associated with lactase persistence in Europe [76], [77] or Arabia [78], [79], and likely arose during the last 7,000 years [75]. The Maasai do not have the Arabian lactase persistence allele, which is estimated to have originated about 4,000 years ago (95% CI: 250–27,575) and is present at high frequencies in Arabian populations (>50%) [78], [79]. This Arabian allele is also almost absent in the Somali (1.6%) [79], which further supports our hypothesis that gene flow from Arabia within the last few thousand years cannot explain the non-African ancestry in HOA populations.
The West Eurasian ancestry in the Horn is *NOT* recent, nor does it come from mostly Arabia.
You guys are fools.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Manu: Pickrell is a bullshit study.
It's your theories which are bullshit. It doesn't resist analysis. I just showed you how the Tishkoff study combined with the knowledge in the Hirbo study just destroyed your argumentation.
Game, set, match.
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
''Taking into account published mitochondrial, Y chromosome, paleoclimate, and archaeological data, we find that the time of the Ethio-Somali back-to-Africa migration is most likely pre-agricultural.''
Deal with it.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
What did I tell you? This guy is just making it all up as he goes along. The dating technique used by Pickrell simply reports the latest admixture event and ignores the early admixture events. We can see this clearly in the fact that the admixture event reported for Egypt and North African coincide with the latest admixture event there as well (i.e. 1300 years ago). The point being that the North Africans are modelled in this analysis as West African or Ari and European. You'd have to be out of your mind to think that Arabs encountered West Africans or Ari-like populations in coastal North Africa during the Islamic Invasion.
Not to mention the fact that Tishkoff et al support none of his claims.
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
I'm just going to ignore Amun-Ra and xyyman from now on.
These guys are blatant pseudoscientists of the highest order.
This place could have been a cool place to discuss African genetics if it weren't for the agenda ridden people like Amun-Ra, xyyman, Clyde Winters and other con artists.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
^^^Before 3000 ago, Eurasian admixtures into the Horn of Africa was either non-existent or very small. That's why Cushitic and Chadic populations in the Tishkoff study, don't have much Eurasian admixtures despite having a lot of E1b1b. So the Eurasian admixtures in Horn Africa by ethio-semitic speakers happened "recently" (aka in the last 3000 years) AFTER the separation of Cushitic and Chadic speakers into their current ethnic and language groups.
You are put on my ignore list.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
^^^The insults are unnecessary as I just kicked your ass with argumentations. If you can't handle it, it's your own problem.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun Ra The Ultimate: Before 3000 ago, Eurasian admixtures into the Horn of Africa was either non-existent or very small.
That's where his mystic "True Afar" come in. His dark-skinned afro hair textured "True Afar" are a segment of the original Afar population which was isolated from this 3kya admixture event, which turned the the Afar from a Chadic-like ancestral population to the 50% "Eurasian" samples from Pagani et al. Talk about having a rich imagination
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: That's where his mystic "True Afar" come in. His dark-skinned afro hair textured "True Afar" are segment of the Afar population who were isolated from this 3kya admixture event, which turned the fake Afars from a Chadic-like population to the Abyssinians we know today. Talk about having a rich imagination.
Ironically, based on personal travels in the Horn region the Afars have a higher frequency of wavy or straight hair than the Amhara and Tigray.
There is absolutely no way that Eurasian admixture or affinity whatever you call it came only from the Ethio-Semites in the Horn.
It has much older roots there.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Manu: It has much older roots there.
Of course it has. We could get into the molecular specifics like coalescent analysis of the uniparentals in the region, or we could use something more fitting for his intellect, like pictures. People who resemble Abyssinians are depicted in Ancient Egypt and these murals of southern populations along the Red Sea Coast are older than 3kya.
Posted by Ponsford (Member # 20191) on :
Studies that use uni-parental markers to infer about populations so far back in time are very hypothetical-even the authors of these studies admit it.Neither the Y chromosome nor the mitochondria have genes coding for phenotype.These studies using uni-parental markers have underestimated the rapid movemen and mixing of ancient populations.
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Of course it has. We could get into the molecular specifics like coalescent analysis of the uniparentals in the region, or we could use something more fitting for his intellect, like pictures. People who resemble Abyssinians are depicted in Ancient Egypt and these murals are older than 3kya.
LOL!
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
@ Ponsford
Leaving aside the origin of some of the following lineages for a second (i.e. whether you count them as African or non-African), there is nothing hypothetical about the fact that U6, M1, T-PS21, J-M267, J1, X1, etc. weren't introduced to the Abyssinian genepool 3kya by South Arabian speakers (who mostly even have these lineages or the respective subclades that Abyssinians have). If you find that hypothetical, I'm more than interested to review the specifics. What are you basing it on?
Of course uniparentals don't code for phenotype. However, finding depictions of highly diverse populations below the 1st cataract, some of whom are suggested to be ancestral to modern day Cushitic speaking Ethiopians, obliterates his fairy tale that all Africans were "one people" before 3kya.
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
I personally can't wait for ancient autosomal DNA studies on Ancient Egyptians and Neolithic Ethiopians.
There are high quality remains all over the place, especially in the arid zones.
It will shut up the biased con artists for good.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
We have some Egyptian aDNA results on the FB group and they are very interesting, but difficult to interpret. There is an official aDNA paper coming out in the coming months that is supposed to pick up where Hawass 2010 left off.
Overall though, if there is one thing we can be sure about, it's that the argument that the ancients = the moderns has been debunked.
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
Is it high res?
I hate those pesky low res STR studies they do from time to time.
Europeans have so many high quality ancient samples from the Mesolithic and Neolithic like Ötzi.
Makes me wonder whether there is a political agenda that is keeping autosomal samples from Ancient Egypt from being studied.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
What, the Hawass thing? From what has been established in email exchanges with one of the authors, it concerns mtDNA lineages of some of the royal remains. But it could include more, we'll have to wait and see.
BTW, in regards to your "moderns are more African than the ancients" comment, what do you think about the relationships of the African component in Pagani 2012's modern Egyptian sample to the West Eurasian samples? Just going by the relationships of this component alone, there is no way this component could be non-native. But I'm getting ahead of myself. What do you think about it? What is your analysis?
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
It based on loose assumptions on the genetic results of Coptic Egyptians friends of mine on 23andMe.
They are noticeable less Sub-Saharan than the muslim Arab Egyptians.
Some of those Copts are even from Southern Egypt..
This does not bode well for those who assume that pre-Arab Egyptians were more Sub-Saharan.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
And your comments in regards to the relationships of the African component of modern day Egyptians to various West Eurasian populations in Pagani et al 2012 table 2? If it's not native, why doesn't it mimic the relationships of the African component of Cushitic speakers, Omotic speakers, Nilo-Saharans, Morrocans, Mozabites to West Eurasians? Why does the African component in modern Egyptians seem more deeply entrenched in West Eurasia, relative to the African components of these other African populations?
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
Coverage of North Sudan is kind of poor in most autosomal SNP studies.
More samples from that region are needed in order for me to make an assessment on the nativeness of the Sub-Saharan ancestry of Egyptians.
Slave trade associated Sub-Saharan ancestry is rampant in the Middle East (especially Morocco, Oman, Yemen, and possibly Egypt).
This could explain why Coptic Egyptians have less affinity with Sub-Saharans than the Muslim Arab Egyptians.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Manu:
Makes me wonder whether there is a political agenda that is keeping autosomal samples from Ancient Egypt from being studied.
if there was a political agenda keeping analysis from being published what could it be about?
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: if there was a political agenda keeping analysis from being published what could it be about?
^^^
For Egyptians => Ancients are too different from them.
Ministry of State for Antiquities has an agenda to hide this fact.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
You're avoiding the question. If the African component in modern Egypt is recent, why does it have a relatively closer affinity to the West Eurasian samples? Even if there is no Nubian sample, this African component had to have been in Egypt long enough for it to be able to hitchhike along with Egyptians to the regions where said relatively closer relationship is observed. Again, see table 2.
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: You're avoiding the question. If the African component in modern Egypt is recent, why does it have a relatively closer affinity to the components of West Eurasians? Even if there is no Nubian sample, this African component had to have been in Egypt long enough for it to be able to hitchhike along with Egyptians to the regions where said relatively closer relationship is observed.
Arab Egyptians have small traces of the West African cluster, even after the Nilo-Saharan cluster has formed.
This makes me suspect slave trade ancestry, but it is not set in stone.
Need to compare them to Nubian and Beja samples to be sure.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Manu: Arab Egyptians have small traces of the West African cluster, even after the Nilo-Saharan cluster has formed.
^Lol. If you don't want to answer the question, why not just say you don't want to answer the question? My question has nothing to do with Arab or Coptic Egyptians and how much West African ancestry they have.
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
In general, non-Muslims are far more representative of their region's ancient genetics in the Middle East than the cosmopolitan Muslims.
Classic example are the Samaritans vs Palestinians or Yemenite Jews vs Yemeni Arabs.
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
I am not up on the genetic studies but didn't geneticist find ancient Nilotic markers in an insular Coptic community in the Sudan?
I wish there was a more through study done by geneticists on the modern Coptic vs. Muslim Egyptian population.
Knowing about history of parts of Middle Egypt were most Copts reside its not surprising many of them might have Greco-Roman, Syrian and even Armenian ancestry. Rural Copts and Muslims are not vastly different in physical appearance. The only difference is perhaps the rural Muslim Egyptian population have mixed more with bedouins that migrated into parts of Egypt. Arabs had actually been settling in parts of Middle Egypt as far back as the Roman era.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
@Manu
So I take it you're going to keep on ignoring the fact that the African component in Egyptians has an Egypt-specific nature per its affinities to West Eurasia?
Average pairwise distance of the "African" component in the Mozabite sample to non-Africans: 0.0411
Average pairwise distance of the "African" component in the Cushitic-Semitic sample to non-Africans: 0.0401
Average pairwise distance of the "African" component in the Omotic sample to non-Africans: 0.0399
Average pairwise distance of the "African" component in the Nilotic sample to non-Africans: 0.0397
Average pairwise distance of the "African" component in the Moroccan sample to non-Africans: 0.0388
Average pairwise distance of the "African" component in the Egyptian sample to non-Africans: 0.0372 Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Manu:
Hodgson et al. postulates that a cluster closer to West Eurasians he labeled as ''Ethio-Somali'' is representative of the early Afro-Asiatics.
However, as those mostly West Eurasian early Afro-Asiatic peoples migrated to the Horn they encountered Nilotic people. Hence, all the light blue Nilo-Saharan that shows up in the Horn.
Sub-Saharan admixture came later in the story of Afro-Asiatic.
Chadics (real ones, not the Hausa) are full blown Nilo-Saharans with only residual traces of Afro-Asiatic (mainly on Y-DNA, not autosomal).
''Taking into account published mitochondrial, Y chromosome, paleoclimate, and archaeological data, we find that the time of the Ethio-Somali back-to-Africa migration is most likely pre-agricultural.''
Why does Hodgson call a West Eurasian group that he says migrated to the Horn, "Ethio-Somali"?
How would such a name combining Ethiopia and Somalia be appropriate to name a group he says 23kya came from Eurasia ?
Posted by Punos_Rey (Member # 21929) on :
Interesting discussion so far, nice to see the Dynastic Race garbage is still alive and well.
Also, considering the statement that the AEgyptians are racially akin to Eurasians, I guess that means we're going to pretend the Badarians didn't exist?
We're also going to ignore the Qustul incense burner depicting the white crown that'd be used in Upper Egypt too right?
Also let's completely ignore Lioness's riposte about the Amarna studies, or Ramses III's genetics.
Maybe not. Posted by Child Of The KING (Member # 9422) on :
Yeah Punos, Did not want to say anything, but it seems the dynastic race nonsense is growing in people who claim to be African.
Then theirs the attack on Bantu's. As if Bantus only left Africa as slaves etc.
Its a shame really but whatever moves traffic on this forum is an plus by me.
Posted by Punos_Rey (Member # 21929) on :
^I can't agree with the last sentiment when the traffic is more of this "AEgypt and its people were not predominately indigenous Africans regardless of any evidence to the contrary" garbage.
No matter how much Dynastic Race proponents try to twist and contort themselves gymnastically, they can't escape the fact that Egypt is in Africa, and is clearly rooted to the African continent in more ways than geographical proximity.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
And round and round we go!
[QUOTE]Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] Once you understand this statement,there will be no more questions. That goes to you to Bass in that new therad.
Originally posted by xyyman: [ Do you know what this mean? Significance?
Quote: "Yemeni and Mozambique mtDNAs cannot be taken as a measure of actual admixture proportion, because there is a substantial fraction of ***UNINFORMATIVE** haplotypes in both samples" [QUOTE]
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
So DNATribes has extended Africa into Arabia. I AM WAY AHEAD OF THEM. Extending Africa into Arabia then placing EEF IN Arabia. Slick.
Southern Arabia has always been Bantu Territory(SSA). North Arabia is the Sahara.
Don’t believe me?! The pictures!!.
Quote: "Yemeni and Mozambique mtDNAs cannot be taken as a measure of actual admixture proportion, because there is a substantial fraction of ***UNINFORMATIVE** haplotypes in both samples" [QB][/QUOTE]
Arabians are 56% African. The other major compoenet is Indus Valley. ie the Harrapans. The Harrapans carry major EEF. Sources cited already. Indigneous Arabians are Africans.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Yemeni has been occupied by SSA like people since the Paleolithic. Northern Arabia and the Levant by pre-Amazigh like poeple. Arabia is setup like continental Africa. That explains the morphology of SSA and North African types of the Natufians. The genetics, Morphology and geography makes sense.
===== Quote from the paper : - However, ******Yemeni****** sequences, IN CONTRAST to their clustering together with Ethiopian and Egyptian populations in the MDS plot (fig. 3), show GREATER AFFILIATION to haplotypes detected in Mozambique. The haplotype sharing with Mozambique accounts for 23% of the total and 49% of haplogroup L0–L5 lineages among Yemenis. The lack of M and N lineages in the Mozambique sample is the ONLY apparent factor that separates it from Yemenis in the MDS plot. It should be noted here that the percentage of shared lineages between Yemeni and Mozambique mtDNAs cannot be taken as a measure of actual admixture proportion, because there is a substantial fraction of uninformative haplotypes in both samples. These include either matches or the lack of matches, both in northeastern and southeastern African populations, that probably reflect the incomplete sampling of Africa. Compared with Bantu speakers from southeastern Africa, the Ethiopian contribution to the Yemeni mtDNA pool can be considered relatively minor, since the shared haplotypes account for just 9% of the total variation.
=== the Ethiopian contribution to the Yemeni mtDNA pool can be considered relatively minor!!!
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
The Mozambique associated haplotypes are only due to the slave trade. Nothing else.
Why do you want to claim people who enslaved your kind en masse? Is this some sort of Stockholm Syndrome?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
To the Lurkers - what they are saying here is – once the sub-clades of the sex-related DNA hg-M and N is removed from the analysis, Yemeni are essentially Sub-Saharan Africans. This corroborates what DNATribes observed with autosomal SNP/AIM, that EEF met pre-SSA population occupying Arabia. Further, As stated above the Mazambique haplotypes are very similar to Yemeni BUT there are NOT informative, meaning, they SHARE the same source population. Neither are the ancestral population of each other. . Of course all this nullifies the so-called Swahali “slave trade”. LOL!!!!
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
Slave trade ancestry is not native to Arabia.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
HA! HA! HA! Yeah! Yeah! Ostrich head in the Sand Syndrome.
Yemeni and Mozambique mtDNAs cannot be taken as a measure of actual admixture proportion! Yemeni and Mozambique mtDNAs cannot be taken as a measure of actual admixture proportion! Yemeni and Mozambique mtDNAs cannot be taken as a measure of actual admixture proportion!
Quote: "Yemeni and Mozambique mtDNAs cannot be taken as a measure of actual admixture proportion, because there is a substantial fraction of ***UNINFORMATIVE** haplotypes in both samples" [/QUOTE]
quote:Originally posted by Manu: [QB] The Mozambique associated haplotypes are only due to the slave trade. Nothing else.
Why do you want to claim people who enslaved your kind en masse? Is this some sort of Stockholm Syndrome?
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
Yemenite Jews who are the real ancient Yemenis have no Bantu associated maternal lineages.
The Arabs are recently mixed mongrels.
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
Also, isolated Yemenis like the Soctrans have no Bantu associated lineages as they had less slaves than the mainlanders:
I am sensing frantic desperation on your part. You started posting pictures to make a point. When a fraud runs out of ideas they resort to pictures, many are fake. Manu are afraud also?
Do me…no…do lurkers a favor. What is the source of the picture? Did you get it off a racist blog?
It reminds me of the picture Lioness posted awhile back which I disassembled. Posting pictures of “modern Turkish Arabs” slaving Africans does nothng for me. Really. Can you verify the authencity of the picture?
Is this on display in a Museum, Library , anywhere? Just curious.
Lioness can you post that picture of the child being sold in the Yemeni slave Market?
quote:Originally posted by Manu: Slave trade ancestry is not native to Arabia.
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
I'm out.
@xyyman you are just beyond retarded.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
@ Manu.
You've mentioned running genomes through ADMIXTURE yesterday. I'm looking for someone with expertise in that area for a project you might be interested in given our discussion. Are you skilled with such software?
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote: Conclusions
Based on these analyses, we can propose a model for the spread of west Eurasian ancestry in southern and eastern Africa as follows. First, a large-scale movement of people from west Eurasia into Ethiopia around 3,000 y ago (perhaps from southern Arabia and associated with the D’mt kingdom and the arrival of Ethiosemitic languages ) resulted in the dispersal of west Eurasian ancestry throughout eastern Africa. This was then followed by a migration of an admixed population (perhaps pastoralists related to speakers of Khoe–Kwadi languages) from eastern Africa to southern Africa, with admixture occurring ∼1,500 y ago. Advances in genotyping DNA from archaeological samples may allow aspects of this model to be directly tested.
LOL! These people were never part of the Abyssinian kingdom and had no contact with Amharas and Tigrays.
You are a clown.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Yemeni has been occupied by SSA like people since the Paleolithic. Northern Arabia and the Levant by pre-Amazigh like poeple. Arabia is setup like continental Africa. That explains the morphology of SSA and North African types of the Natufians. The genetics, Morphology and geography makes sense.
===== Quote from the paper : - However, ******Yemeni****** sequences, IN CONTRAST to their clustering together with Ethiopian and Egyptian populations in the MDS plot (fig. 3), show GREATER AFFILIATION to haplotypes detected in Mozambique. The haplotype sharing with Mozambique accounts for 23% of the total and 49% of haplogroup L0–L5 lineages among Yemenis. The lack of M and N lineages in the Mozambique sample is the ONLY apparent factor that separates it from Yemenis in the MDS plot. It should be noted here that the percentage of shared lineages between Yemeni and Mozambique mtDNAs cannot be taken as a measure of actual admixture proportion, because there is a substantial fraction of uninformative haplotypes in both samples. These include either matches or the lack of matches, both in northeastern and southeastern African populations, that probably reflect the incomplete sampling of Africa. Compared with Bantu speakers from southeastern Africa, the Ethiopian contribution to the Yemeni mtDNA pool can be considered relatively minor, since the shared haplotypes account for just 9% of the total variation.
=== the Ethiopian contribution to the Yemeni mtDNA pool can be considered relatively minor!!!
Late to the thread. So you are saying that sub-Saharan lineages in Arabia are not all due to the "slave trade" (cue marching unfortunates under hot sun), but go back for tens of millennia? (What's that paper cite again?)
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
A fraud!
Defeat!
But before you go. Can you help us all out? What is the source of that picture of those slaves?
Also I just finished reading the paper YOU posted on the Soqotra Cerny Et al. Being a "dumb ass" you did not read it before you posted it. Didn't you? SMH
I will break it down later.
@ Z-Man. The thread and paper is on ESR. You contributed to the thread. By Anastacia(sp).
quote:Originally posted by Manu: I'm out.
@xyyman you are just beyond retarded.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
I own this!
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
@ Swenet. A better project will be to get hold of someone who can use software to process haplotypes. Many of the data packets are freely available on line. Example – This Soqotra paper Manu just referenced will be a great project to compare haplotypes with comtemporary populations. Some of the hg-L found in the Soqotra are unqiue, meaning this African line is very old. Just as what I referenced above. Meaning it is not found in continental Africa.
But more importantly is the yDNA J* found in the Soqotra populations. J* is the highest followed by hg-E (African). It looks like R-V88 is present also. J* has highest frequency in Sudan and mainland Yemen, Nubia region and Turkey. Based upon haplotypes the Hadrawat grouped with SSA. I will post more when I get time.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
^^OK will recheck that thread. Go get em man.
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
I think that software thing is good, dienekes and all teh Euros use it, its time that we did. I am fully back and at full strength
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Chirp! chirp! No answer. That’s right! GTFOH with your BS.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [] ?
Do me…no…do lurkers a favor. What is the source of the picture? Did you get it off a racist blog?
Can you verify the authencity of the picture?
Is this on display in a Museum, Library , anywhere? Just curious.
quote:Originally posted by Manu: [] .
[/qb]
[/QB]
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Thinking African DNA in Arabia (Levant) is new is absurd and ridiculous.
Oh! While researching Yemen. Here is something I came across. To those who question - Arabia is an extension of Africa!!! It has always known. DNATribes is not disclosing anything new. They are confirming what I have been saying 3 years now. Arabia is an extension of Africa. How inprotant are the Bediouns.
Zanetti et al AUG2014
Quote:
The results indicate SIGNIFICANT genetic differences between Bedouins and General Jordanians (p= 0.038) from the 18 markers. Whereas Bedouins show a close genetic proximity to North African, General Jordanians appear genetically as more similar to other Middle East populations. In general, the data of this study are consistent with the hypothesis that Bedouins have had an important role in the peopling of Jordan and constitute the ****ORIGINAL*** substrate of the current population.
However, migration into Jordan in recent years likely has contributed to the diversity among current Jordanian population groups.
---
Think Ottoman Turks as the new migrants(J2)
Posted by LEDAMA (Member # 21677) on :
AFRO-ASIATIC URHEIMAT WAS ACCAD AND SUMERIA. AFAR JEWISH BIBLICAL NAME= OPHIR The GOLD OF OPHIR(Job 28:16,psalms 45:9,prov 1:9) was the most valued gold in ancient times.The location of ophir is eritrea which used to be afar(ophir) region before they were displaced by TIGRAY(HIMYARITES),biblical name HAVILLAH migrating from yemen,before yemen they used to live near afghanistan,later to syria near TIGRIS RIVER.SABAEANS were proto-maasai,they influenced the culture of afar,somali(dedan) and oromo(sheba) people whom were colonised by sabaeans while in yemen.
AMHARA BIBLICAL NAME HATTU/HITTITES egyptology name SEA PEOPLE THEY entered libya as sea people,migrated to meroe later to modern ethiopia shoa region.they joined forces with tigray axumites.
sea people warrior amhara warrior
the sea people headress,sword,spear,round shield is exactly the ones used by amhara,they had initially tried to enter egypt via suez canal,later they used the sea,entered libya,meroe(meru),later ethiopia,in meroe they mingled with bantu meru people,thats why kikuyu,meru people have little amounts of mtDNA N1a and U6,thats were amhara have little L2a.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Well, well, well. It appears the troll Manu is back. I would take you more seriously if you didn't cite Dienekes the dinosaur. And you're still claiming the ancient Egyptians as 'Eurasians'. LOL Posted by LEDAMA (Member # 21677) on :
PROTO-MAASAI(SEBA) AND PROTO-KALENJIN(RAAMAH) CULTURAL INFLUENCE ON AFAR(OPHIR),SOMALI(DEDAN) AND OROMO(SHEBA) AFAR WOMEN JEWELLERY MAASAI WOMEN JEWELLERY SAMBURU WOMEN JEWELLERY RENDILLE WOMEN JEWELLERY THE SO-CALLED AFRO-ASIATIC CUSHITES WERE BASICALLY NILOTES WHO INTERMARRIED WITH SEMITES This intermarriage occurred in ancient accad.This is evident,from the way most cushites have adopted semitic lower numerals(1-8) in their numbers,while maintaining their former nilotic upper numerals(9-1000). 4 KALENJIN SUBTRIBES NUMERALS
MAASAI LOWER NUMERALS 1) obo 2) aare 3) okuni 4) oonguan 5) imiet 6) Ile 7) oopishana 8) isiet 9) oondo 10) tomon
KALENJIN-OROMO UPPER NUMERALS(9-1000). As you will see all Oromo lower numerals (1-8),are semitic in origin.but all the upper numerals(9-1000) of Oromo are nilotic Kalenjin in origin.They all include kalenjin lower numerals. KALENJIN-OROMO UPPER NUMERALS Sakal/sogool=Sakal - 9 Taman=Kudhan - 10 Taman ak agenge - 11 : Tiptem=digdem - 20 Tiptem ak agenge - 21 : Sosom -soddoma 30 Sosom ak agenge -31 : Artam - Afurtama40 Artam ak agenge - 41 : Konom - Shantama50 Konom ak agenge - 51 : Tamanwogik Lo - 60 Tamanwogik Lo ak agenge - 61 : Tamanwogik tisap - 70 Tamanwogik tisap ak agenge - 71 : ... sisiit - 80 ... sisiit ak agenge - 81 : ... sogool -sogoltama 90 ... sogool ak agenge - 91 : bogol - Bogol 100 bogol ak agenge 101 : bogol aeng' - 200 : bogol somok - 300 MAASAI UPPER NUMERALS MAINTAINED BY SOMALI AND OROMO. This influence occured when proto-axumite/proto-maasai ANCIENT SABAEANS colonised Yemen and the whole of southern arabia.The Sabaeans Nilotic maa-ancestors colonised the Nilo-semitic SHEBA(oromo),OPHIR(afar),DEDAN(somalis) and HAVILLAH(Tigray & Tigrinya).This colonisation occured when these tribes were still living in Yemen and south arabia. OROMO-SOMALI-MAASAI NUMERALS. Tomon 10 Tomon o obo 11 Tomon o aare 12 Tomon o okuni 13 Tomon o oofigwan14 Tomon o nabo 11 Tomon o are 12 Tomon o uni 13 Tomon o ofigwan 14 Tomon o imyet 15 Tomon o ille 16 Tomon o oopishana 17 Tomon oo naapishana 18 Tomon o isyet 19 Tomon o oudo Tomon oo naudo 20 Tigitam 20 Tigit&m o obo TigitSm o nabo 21 Osom or 'N-domoni uni 23 Artam or 'N-domoni oSgwan24 Onom or 'N-domoni 'myet 25 Onom oo tomon or 'N-domoni 'lie 26 Onom oo tigitam or 'N-domoni naapishana 27 Onom oo 'n-domoni uni or 'N-domoni 'eyet 28 Onom o artain or 'N-domoni naudo 29
Somalis and oromo have adopted semitic lower numerals but have maintained their nilotic upper numerals.maasai and kalenjin have maintained both their nilotic upper and lower numerals.
BIBLICAL EVIDENCE(Genesis 10:6,7) ; SONS OF HAM; 1)CUSH/KUSH=NILOTES(NILO-SAHARAN) 2)MIZRAIMS=PYGMIES & WEST AFRICANS(Niger congo A) 3)PHUT=KHOISAN 4)CANAAN=BANTUS(Niger congo B)
Actually these are also the four main languages spoken in Africa.Considering the fact Afro-asiatic e.g Chadic,Amazigh,Cushitic are NILOTIC CONTINUITY.a proven fact.
SONS OF KUSH(NILOTES) 1)SEBA=Maa-speakers(sabaeans) e.g maasai,samburu,lotuko group 2)HAVILLAH=Tigray and Tigrinya group 3)SABTAH=Nuer,dinka,shilluk,anuak,luo peoples group 4)RAAMAH=Kalenjin,datooga & Omotic group. 5)SABTECHA=Nuba,Turkana,karamajong,Toposa group. 6)NIMROD=Dravidians.
SONS OF RAAMAH(proto kalenjin rmT) 1)SHEBA=Oromo 2)DEDAN=Somali.
DNA EVIDENCE The oldest Y E3b clades are found in NILOTES,while the younger clades are found in afro-asiatic cushites e.g OLDER E3B CLADES NILOTIC; E-M215 and E-M35(maasai),E-V68 in 'nilotic from kenya'(kalenjin)AND FUR,E-V12(NUER),E-M78*(NUBA&MASALLIT),E-M293(DATOGA) YOUNGER E3B CLADES CUSHITIC E-V22(SOMALIS),E-V32(OROMO).
Posted by LEDAMA (Member # 21677) on :
Eurocentric scholars in desperate attempt to paint the SABAEANS as semitic,have claimed all the civilisation brought to yemen by the nilo-semitic HIMYARITES known as HAVILLAH in bible.these Himyarites migrated from regions near TIGRIS river in Iranian plateau to yemen then to Eritrea and Ethiopia and today are known as TIGRAY or TIGRINYA people,they together with AGAW who initially were oromo clan started AKSUMITE EMPIRE,they displaced the proto-maasai(sabaeans) who lived there,near afar region(ophir) of eritrea and ethiopia. The so-called 'Sabaean moon god' is actually TIGRAY Moon god Ilmukah or Ilumguh,worshiped by TIGRINYA and TIGRAY before they introduction of christianity to axum 2000 years ago.The moon goddess Astarte, or Ashtart, whom they called Astar, which means "womb." The giver and destroyer of life,was also worshiped by TIGRAY,thats why her temple is also found in tigray region of ethiopia. Astar was Queen of Heaven and Mother of all Deities. Arriving from heaven as a ball of fire, and accompanied by a lioness, she was pictured with horns, and a disc of the sun above her forehead. Oromo(sheba)and sabaeans(maasai)worshiped the sun ENKAI(ENKI)by maasai and WAAQA by oromo. In the Kebra Negast, the Queen tells Solomon,
"We worship the sun...for he cooketh our food, and moreoever he illumineth the darkness, and removeth fear; we call him 'our King,' and we call him 'our Creator'....And there are others among our subjects.... some worship stones, and some worship trees, and some worship carved figures, and some worship images of gold and silver."(2) The queen of SHEBA was an Oromo woman.SHEBA was OROMIA which initially was located in yemen but they entered ethiopia during the Assyrian expansion period.The somalis(dedan)entered the horn during the persian expansion era,that is there are still somali clans left behind in yemen even today. The so-called ARABIAN temple at MARIB was bult by Tigray HIMYARITES before they later relocated to eritrea escaping persian expansion in yemen.in eritrea they displaced afar(ophir),maasai(seba)and oromo(sheba). Geez script was a product of TIGRAY SCRIPT aka SOUTH ARABIAN/SABAEAN and AMHARA(HATTU/HITTITE)SCRIPT brought by amhara migrating from libya and meroe as SEA-PEOPLE.These amhara hittites now coptic christians came and settled in ethiopia SHOA region claiming descent from solomon.They started the SOLOMONID DYNASTY of ethiopia and changed the kingdom name to ABSYNIA.the bible in genesis 10,makes it clear the hittites are descendants of canaan(bantus),descandants of HAM(ancestor of all africans).these bantu hittites mixed with semitic elamites,and were in league with them,that is why they were hated by egyptians. amhara are canaanite bantu hittites who mixed with Elamites,jews,syrians,and later in ethiopia they mixed with maasai,tigray and oromo. BANTU DNA OF AMHARA Y DNA E-M329 a descendant of E-V38,both E-M329 and E-M2 are descendants E-V38. The bible makes it clear,hittites are descended from canaan who is descendend from HAM(father of all africans). AMHARA BANTU PHENOTYPE - - - - - EVER wondered why amhara are usually shorter,broader and have kinky hair more than other ethiopians,except the nilotes?their extreme lightskin is as result of semitic mixture,mostly jewish and elamite.
Posted by Snakepit1 (Member # 21736) on :
quote:BIBLICAL EVIDENCE(Genesis 10:6,7) ; SONS OF HAM; 1)CUSH/KUSH=NILOTES(NILO-SAHARAN) 2)MIZRAIMS=PYGMIES & WEST AFRICANS(Niger congo A) 3)PHUT=KHOISAN 4)CANAAN=BANTUS(Niger congo B)
Actually these are also the four main languages spoken in Africa.Considering the fact Afro-asiatic e.g Chadic,Amazigh,Cushitic are NILOTIC CONTINUITY.a proven fact.
SONS OF KUSH(NILOTES) 1)SEBA=Maa-speakers(sabaeans) e.g maasai,samburu,lotuko group 2)HAVILLAH=Tigray and Tigrinya group 3)SABTAH=Nuer,dinka,shilluk,anuak,luo peoples group 4)RAAMAH=Kalenjin,datooga & Omotic group. 5)SABTECHA=Nuba,Turkana,karamajong,Toposa group. 6)NIMROD=Dravidians.
SONS OF RAAMAH(proto kalenjin rmT) 1)SHEBA=Oromo 2)DEDAN=Somali.
How can NC A/B have DIFFERENT ancestors (If we're going by the bible) ? That doesn't make any sense at all. Secondly, so-called "Bantus" have cultural customs which are more in common with Shem compared to any descendants of Ham (Such a certain groups calling their god "Yah-Ab/Abé" meaning, "Yah is our father" , circumcision (not that unique, but still) , fringes/tassels on the border of their garments, called "tzitzit" in modern Hebrew, and "Tsitsiy" in bantu (the tsetse-fly also lives in the fring(es), hence its name, and you have other common words such as "Ben" ("son" in Hebrew) is "bena/bana" (son in Lingala, Kikongo etc) , water in Hebrew is "Mayim" (the "m" at the end is silent, it's pronounced like "my") in lingala it's "mayi" , in Oshiwambo its "Omeya" in Arabic it's "Maya" , and so forth) .
There's a closer connection between Africa & Arabia (and I know that Arabia is just an extension of North(east) Africa, really.) than most people like to acknowledge
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Snakepit1:
There's a closer connection between Africa & Arabia (and I know that Arabia is just an extension of North(east) Africa, really.) than most people like to acknowledge
Since North African countries are part of the Arab League, speak the Arabic language (or Semitic languages aka ethio-semitic languages) and practice a religion, Islam, which originated in Arabia. I think the connection is more than acknowledged, it's a fact which happens to also be acknowledged. Many populations in North Africa, including Horn Africa, most possibly because of religion, like to trace their genealogy to Arabia.
Arab League member countries (its' an old map with South Sudan): Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
Arab League: Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
LEDAMA sez: BIBLICAL EVIDENCE(Genesis 10:6,7) ; SONS OF HAM; 1)CUSH/KUSH=NILOTES(NILO-SAHARAN) 2)MIZRAIMS=PYGMIES & WEST AFRICANS(Niger congo A) 3)PHUT=KHOISAN 4)CANAAN=BANTUS(Niger congo B)
Caanan in Bible text refers to the Levantine/Israel /Palestinian area not any "Niger-Congo." Mizraim in Bible text refers to Egypt, not "Pygmies" or West Africans. You simply do not know what you are talking about and if you are trolling to parody a bogus strawman "Afrocentrist", your game simply isn't plausible- but rather dumb. No one is being fooled.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
Yeah, racist past historians always liked to acknowledge the connection between Western Asia and Ancient Egypt since this was the basis of their hamitic/dynastic race pseudo-scientific endeavors. It's the connections between black/Sub-Saharan Africans, including AEians, they liked to keep quiet about. Nowadays, most scientists agree that Ancient Egypt mostly grew from an indigenous African process with the accent on 'indigenous'. It was not migrants from Western Asia or Europe who came to Africa to create the AEian civilization (even if some level of tradings must have existed even in those ancient times) but mostly indigenous Africans related to each others through their common origin in Northeastern Africa (Y-DNA haplogroup A, B and E carriers, MtDNA L).
Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Manu: Yemenite Jews who are the real ancient Yemenis have no Bantu associated maternal lineages.
The Arabs are recently mixed mongrels.
Welcome to Egyptsearch,
quote:"Particularly, Yemen has the largest contribution of L lineages (30). So, most probably, this area was the entrance gate of a portion of these lineages in prehistoric times, which participated in the building of the primitive Arabian population."
Under these suppositions, the Arabian Peninsula, as an obliged step between East Africa and South Asia, has gained crucial importance, and indeed several mtDNA studies have recently been published for this region [30-32]. However, it seems that the bulk of the Arab mtDNA lineages have northern Neolithic or more recent Asian or African origins....
--Khaled K Abu-Amero et al. (2008) Mitochondrial DNA structure in the Arabian Peninsula
quote: Haplogroup L3f is defined by the coding variants
3396-4218-15514-15944del and the control region motif 16209–16519 with a TMRCA of 57,100 ± 9,400 YBP. This haplogroup diversifies into sub-haplogroups L3f1, L3f2 and L3f3. The most geographically widespread sub-haplogroup is L3f1, which is distributed across the African continent [3] and also Arabia [32,33] and has a TMRCA of 48,600 ± 11,500 YBP.
--Viktor Černý1 et al. (2009) Migration of Chadic speaking pastoralists within Africa based on population structure of Chad Basin and phylogeography of mitochondrial L3f haplogroup
quote: The word Arab is of uncertain meaning; when and by whom this people (or these peoples) began to be called Arabs is unknown. The earliest sources where the term Arab appeared the first time are the Hebrew Scriptures of the post-exilic period, namely, during the rebuilding of the Temple under the Persian Empire (Nehemyah 2:19 - 5th century b.c.e.), and is applied in a vague manner probably to some Nabatean tribes. In the same period, also the Greek historian Herodotus mentions the Arabs, apparently in reference to the Yemenite tribes.
There are some earlier records, Akkadian and Assyrian sources that mention the "Aribi", a tribe of the desert that may be connected with the Ishmaelites, but there is not any certainty that such term has even any relationship with the word Arab. Indeed, the term "Arabia" is Greek, as well as Egypt, Syria, Libya, etc. and its probable etymology may be of Semitic origin: 1) 'arabah = steppe, wilderness; 2) 'ereb = mixture of peoples. Both terms are appropriate to them.
Wherever Arabs have conquered, the lands became deserted; the Arabian peninsula itself was not so dry, and Yemen had an irrigation network that allowed the land to be fruitful before Northern Arabs invaded and subdued the Sabean kingdom.
[...]
quote: Most of them were displaced by the Assyrians and emigrated, contributing to the formation of other peoples in India, Central Asia and Europe. Nevertheless, the Kurds are partially descendant of the Subarian/Hurrians, mixed with other elements, and therefore having right to claim a national home in the area - but their land was given to others that arrived many centuries after them: Turks and Arabs.
[...]
quote:The Arab scholars distinguish Arabians as descending from two different stocks: the "original" Arabs ('aribah), whose forefather was Qahtan -Yoqtan- and are the Yemenite group of tribes, and the "arabized" peoples of the north (musta'aribah), whose forefather is said to be Adnan, allegedly an Ishmaelite.
quote: Caanan in Bible text refers to the Levantine/Israel /Palestinian area not any "Niger-Congo
yes the palestinian area was known as canaan,but the name canaan originated from the partriach CANAAN,son of HAM(father of all africans)Gen 10:6.when the bible say 'they of ham used to live in canaan' it means africans used to live in canaan 1 Chronicles 4:40.the partriach canaan was the father of bantus.he was buried in palestine therefore the land was named canaan after him.Cush was buried near afghanistan,there the land,hindu-kush was named after him,his children nilotes entered africa and bult cush and egypt.the partriach MIZRAIM was buried in egypt,the land was named MISIRI after him.That is why egyptians worshiped pygmy deities e.g Ptah and bes.they consider the pygmies aborigines of the land.The pygmies are associated with the BADARIAN culture.
YORUBA PYGMY DEITY BAKONGO PYGMY DEITY EGYPTIAN PYGMY BES Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Manu: ^^^ @Amun-Ra,
So, you believe that the isolated Rendille of Kenya got their West Eurasian mtDNA 30% I1, HV, N1, K etc from Ethiosemites 3,000 years ago?
LOL! These people were never part of the Abyssinian kingdom and had no contact with Amharas and Tigrays.
You are a clown.
It's all a bit more complex,
Origin of the Arabs – Encyclopeadia Britannica 1902
Origin of the [Pure] Arab Race
The origin of the Arab race, like that of most others, can only be matter of conjecture; no credit can be attached to the assertions, evidently unbased on historical facts, of those authors who, building on the narrow foundation of Hebrew records, have included the entire nation under the titles of Ismael and Joktan; and Mahometan testimony on these matters can have no more weight than the Jewish, from which it is evidently derived. Setting, therefore, these vague and half-poetical traditions aside, the first certain fact on which to base our investigations is the ancient and undoubted division of the Arab race into two branches, the “Arab,” or pure; and the “Mostareb,” or adscititious.
The geographical limits of both branches have already been sufficiently indicated. A second fact is, that everything in pre-Islamitic literature and record-the only reliable authorities in such a case, as preserved to us in the Hamasa, the Kitab-el-Aghanee, the writings of Musaoodee and Abul Feda, the stories of Antarah or Mohalhet, and the like-concurs in representing the first settlement of the “pure” Arabs as made on the extreme south-western point of the peninsula, near Aden, and thence spreading northward and eastward over Yemen, Hadramaut, and Oman.
A third is the name Himyar, or “dusky,” given now to the ruling class, now to the entire nation; a circumstance pointing, like the former, to African origin.
A fourth is the Himyaritic language-now, indeed, almost lost, but some words of which have been preserved either in proper names or even in whole sentences handed down. They are African in character, often in identity. Indeed, the dialect commonly used along the south-eastern coast hardly differs from that used by the Somawlee Africans on the opposite shore; but later intermixture of blood and constant intercourse may have much to do with this.
Fifthly, it is remarkable that where the grammar of the Arabic, now spoken by the “pure” Arabs, differs from that of the north, it approaches to or coincides with the Abyssinian. Now, it is well known to philologists that grammatical inflections are a much more abiding and intimate test of origin than separate nouns or even verbs. Sixthly, the pre-Islamitic institutions of Yemen and its allied provinces-its monarchies, courts, armies, and sergs-bear a marked resemblance to the historical Africo-Egyptian type, and even to the modern Abyssinian.
Seventhly, the physical conformation of the pure-blooded Arab inhabitants of Yemen, Hadramaut, Oman, and the adjoining districts-the shape and size of the head, the slenderness of the lower limbs, the comparative scantiness of hair, and other particulars- point in an African rather than an Asiatic direction.
Eighthly, the general habits of the people,-given to sedentary rather than nomade occupations, fond of village life, of society, of dance and music; good cultivators of the soil, tolerate traders, moderate artisans, but averse to pastoral pursuits-have much more in common with the inhabitants of the African than with those of the western Asiatic continent.
Lastly, the extreme facility of marriage which exists in all classes of the southern Arabs with the African races; the fecundity of such unions; and the slightness or even absence of any caste feeling between the dusky “pure” Arab and the still darker native of modern Africa-conditions different from those obtaining almost everywhere else-may be regarded as pointing in the direction of a community of origin. Further indications are afforded both by local tradition and actual observation; but they are of a nature to be scarcely appreciable, except by those whom long familiarity has rendered intimate with the races in question; besides, the above are, for average criticism, sufficient.
Origin of Mustareb Race (The so-called white/caucasian Tartar Arabs)
It is harder to determine with precision the origin of the “adscititious” or “Mustareb” Arabs, and the circumstances under which they first peopled their half of the peninsula. Though in physical, mental, and lingual characteristics they offer too marked an affinity with the Arabs of the south to allow of any supposition except that of ultimate unity, so far as the stock is concerned; yet they present many and important divergences from them, and these divergences, whatever their nature, have all an Asiatic impress of their own.
Such are their pastoral tendencies and proneness to nomade life; such the peculiarities of their idiom, drawing near to the Hebrew; such the strong clannish feeling, joined with a constant resistance to anything like regal power or settled comprehensive organization ; such even the outward and physical type.
Time after time we may observe-in their history, their literature, their institutions or the absence of them, their past, their present-traits now Hebrew, now Syrian, now Chaldaean, now even Tatar; though the groundwork of the whole is undoubtedly identical with the Arab of the south.
The probability, faintly indicated by tradition, is that at an early, indeed an absolutely pre-historic period, this branch of the Arab race, emigrating eastward, passed into Asia- not like their congeners, at the southern, but at the northern or isthmal extremity of the Red Sea; them pursued their inland way to the plains of Mesopotamia and Chaldaea, and perhaps even further; and after a long sojourn in these lands, during which they acquired the modifications, mental and physical, which distinguish them from their southern and more unchanged brethren, returned westward to the land already partly occupied by their kinsmen.
This return would not be effected all at once, but by band after band, according to the pressure exercised on them by Iranian or Turanian neighbours, a fact witnessed to by many of the northern pre-Islamitic traditions, as found in Ibn-Atheer, Tabreezec, and others; while the well-known Ishmaelitic mythos, recorded alike in Hebrew and in Arab chronicles, probably points to the last batch of “adscititious” Arab immigrants, the special clan from which the family of Koreysh and the Prophet had origin.
Once established on the same soil, the two branches would naturally early manifest a tendency to unite, sufficient in time to produce a tolerable identity both of language and of usages; while the superinduced modifications of character and manners may well have originated the rivalry and even enmity between the Arabs of the north, or “Keysees,” and those of Yemen, which, under various forms, has never ceased down to our own time.
quote: Caanan in Bible text refers to the Levantine/Israel /Palestinian area not any "Niger-Congo
yes the palestinian area was known as canaan,but the name canaan originated from the partriach CANAAN,son of HAM(father of all africans)Gen 10:6.when the bible say 'they of ham used to live in canaan' it means africans used to live in canaan 1 Chronicles 4:40.the partriach canaan was the father of bantus.he was buried in palestine therefore the land was named canaan after him.Cush was buried near afghanistan,there the land,hindu-kush was named after him,his children nilotes entered africa and bult cush and egypt.the partriach MIZRAIM was buried in egypt,the land was named MISIRI after him.That is why egyptians worshiped pygmy deities e.g Ptah and bes.they consider the pygmies aborigines of the land.The pygmies are associated with the BADARIAN culture.
I'm not sure if I interpreted you off, but the word "MIZRAIM" means "Egypt" in Hebrew.
Here is a image of what an ancient Philistine and bordering people looked like.
Located at the National Museum of Egypt, Cairo. 2nd floor.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
As usual, great post by TP. Always on point. Would be good to highlight the relevant sections, nevertheless. This support the genetic data. It seems like Hadramawt, Yemen and other areas is a reflection of South Saharan Africa but as Kivilsild et al pointed out through mtDNA, the connection goes back to Paleolithic times. DNATribes made the exact same suggestion through their studies with SNP. South Saharan types existed in the Arabian Peninsular prior to the migration of Neolithic farmers into the region. The only controversy is that the study you quoted suggested, through anthropology, that although the Northern Arabian were originally also Africans they migrated to points further East then back-migrated to Northern Arabia.
The genetic data do NOT support that hypothesis. The genetic data supports- The indigenous Northern Arabians are indeed admixed with Neolithic Africans/EEF(and my personal belief new-comers Ottomans). As the paper I posted and you also referenced shows that some Horners/Great Lakers have a greater affinity to Northern Arabians(and of course Maghrebians) than those in the Yemen area. The geographic pattern support the SNP and Haplogroup pattern of the second OOA wave through the Levant and NOT Yemen.
I figured that out already, and DNATribes also, as posted in their EEF/ANA map!!! This is not rocket science.
QUOTE ==== Seventhly, the physical conformation of the pure-blooded Arab inhabitants of Yemen, Hadramaut, Oman, and the adjoining districts-the shape and size of the head, the slenderness of the lower limbs, the comparative scantiness of hair, and other particulars- point in an African rather than an Asiatic direction. Eighthly, th….. Lastly, the extreme facility of marriage which exists in all classes of the southern Arabs with the African races; the fecundity of such unions; and the slightness or even absence of any caste feeling between the dusky "pure" Arab and the still darker native of modern Africa-conditions different from those obtaining almost everywhere else-may be regarded as pointing in the direction of a community of origin. +
Origin of Mustareb Race
It is harder to determine with precision the origin of the "adscititious" or "Mustareb" Arabs. . Though in physical, mental, and lingual characteristics they offer too marked an affinity with the Arabs of the south.
their present-traits now Hebrew, now Syrian, now Chaldaean, now even Tatar
extremity of the Red Sea; them pursued their inland way to the plains of Mesopotamia and Chaldaea, and perhaps even further; and after a long sojourn I these lands, during which they acquired the modifications, mental and physical, which distinguish them from their southern and more unchanged brethren, RETURNED WESTWARD to the land already partly occupied by their kinsmen.
====
As Sergi said, the EurAfrican has an African origin, even the peoples of Mesopotamia. They are all Neolithic Africans.
The genetic pattern of yDNA J2 supports a historical, maybe Ottoman, influence in the region. What am I talking about? J2 has great frequency ONLYy in the port cities of Africa, as far as Morrocco, including Cairo. Unlike J1 which is widespread through out Africa showing Paleolithic presence.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Few more comments
1. The author is suggesting that “pastoralism’ separates Northern Arabians from the southern Arabians. Southern being agriculturalist while Northerners being pastoralist, with an Arabia origin. Pastoralism also have an African/EEF origin!!!. 2. The presence of South Saharan types and North African types in the Natufians in the Levant makes absolute sense since both populations existed in Arabia. 3. Gonzalez (?)et al 2014. Levant Neolithic farmers carried mtDNA L and H along with K. The hg-K haplotypes were similar to those found in Yemen…. and Turkey 4. Remember that Turkey carry a high frequency of mtDNA L.
Obviously as many authors have stated. An older population occupied region from Yemen to Turkey and was eventually pushed out by another population carry R0/H.
This is not rocket science.
Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
@XYYMAN
^ Source for a high L in Turkey? How do you reconcile the your idea of recnent Africna origin of Natufian when looking at their limb proportions data?
Posted by LEDAMA (Member # 21677) on :
@trol pAtrol#ish gibril-smh..slow people. I KNOW MIZRAIM MEANS EGYPT OKAY What i am saying is that the land was named after the patriach MIZRAIM(hebrew),MISIRI(nilotic&bantu),MISRI(arabic),MUSURI(persian),a son of HAM(father of all black africans).MIZRAIM died and was buried in egypt that is why africans called the land MISIRI.khoisan and pygmies are the first africans to enter egypt via the suez canal,but the pygmies were the first africans to settle in the north east africa region,before later migrating to central africa and cameroon forest,due to the incoming nilotic migration from the south,all nilotes entered africa via the horn of africa root,the nilotes that remained in mesopotamia mixed with semites,that is why i believe the AFRO-ASIATIC URHEIMATis Accad and Sumer.Those bantus and nilotes that mixed with pygmies were also called MIZRAIM aka BADERIANS.That is why all ethnicities of OLD kingdom egypt,between first dynastyand third intermediary period, that came into contact with these proto egyptians had pygmy DNA Y haplogroup B-M60 and mtDNA L1b/c.E.g,nuba,kalenjin,nubians,karamajong,turkana,nuer,dinka,copts.Except Yoruba,igbo,akan,ashanti,mande who are old kingdom bantus that had bottle-necked these pygmy population,marrying their women,hence preserving these proto-pygmy language mixed with bantu VOLTA-NIGER CONGO.Egyptians worshiped bes and ptah as their oldest deities,infact the name PTAH in both egyptian and kalenjin means 'god of the beginning'. EGYPTIAN BES [IMG], EGYPTIAN PTAH AND BES(Egypt oldest gods) . The only nilotes that didn't mix with bantus but mixed with khoisan are eastern nilotes(maasai,samburu)Y Haplogroup A-M13.Western nilotes e.g dinka,luo,turkana,acholi mixed with both khoisan and pygmies that is why they have both A-M13 and B-M60.SOUTHERN NILOTES(y e-v68,e-m78)e.g kalenjin and datooga mixed with pygmies(B2a) and bantus(E3a) in ancient egypt,but when they migrated south after assyrian invasion of egypt they mixed with maasai in western ethiopia acquiring A-M13 and E-M35.somalis(E-V22)and Oromo(E-V32) were still in yemen.ALL nilotes have E3b,that means E3b is a nilotic clade,afro-asiatic cushitic are nilotes from yemen and arabia,who entered africa after persian expansion,they have A-M13 due to maasai(sabaean)colonisation,they don't have B2a like other nilotes because they never came into contact with pygmies,their language is a mixture of nilotic and semitic,because of the semitic expansion in the middle east,that forced these nilo-semites into africa.they have mtDNA L3 and L4 like nilotes,Younger clades of Y E3b,unlike nilotes who carry Older clades of E3b.
Posted by LEDAMA (Member # 21677) on :
quote:Originally posted by Manu: ^^^ @Amun-Ra, So, you believe that the isolated Rendille of Kenya got their West Eurasian mtDNA 30% I1, HV, N1, K etc from Ethiosemites 3,000 years ago? http://www.isita-org.com/jass/Contents/2008%20vol86/12_Castri.pdf LOL! These people were never part of the Abyssinian kingdom and had no contact with Amharas and Tigrays. You are a clown.
rendile warriors The rendille were a Somali clan assimilated by maasai and samburu,especially samburu.The name RENDILLEin somali is pronounced REER-NDILLE which is translated to 'house of Ndille'in somali language. when maasai warriors were pushed south by Aksumites e.g Tigray,agaw and nothern oromo,they migrated south towards ogaden region of ethiopia,others migrated west into sudan(lotuka) mixing with karamajong.Those that migrated south(samburu),encountered somali migrants from yemen,who pushed maa people,further west toward lake turkana.At lake turkana,samburu encountered other maasai migrating from eastern sudan and western ethiopia.The maa-name for lake turkana is Basso Narok, which mean't 'Great Water'. later maa people entered kenya,kerio valley.
Posted by LEDAMA (Member # 21677) on :
@snakepitfire-
quote: quote:BIBLICAL EVIDENCE(Genesis 10:6,7) ; SONS OF HAM; 1)CUSH/KUSH=NILOTES(NILO-SAHARAN) 2)MIZRAIMS=PYGMIES & WEST AFRICANS(Niger congo A) 3)PHUT=KHOISAN 4)CANAAN=BANTUS(Niger congo B)
Actually these are also the four main languages spoken in Africa.Considering the fact Afro-asiatic e.g Chadic,Amazigh,Cushitic are NILOTIC CONTINUITY.a proven fact.
SONS OF KUSH(NILOTES) 1)SEBA=Maa-speakers(sabaeans) e.g maasai,samburu,lotuko group 2)HAVILLAH=Tigray and Tigrinya group 3)SABTAH=Nuer,dinka,shilluk,anuak,luo peoples group 4)RAAMAH=Kalenjin,datooga & Omotic group. 5)SABTECHA=Nuba,Turkana,karamajong,Toposa group. 6)NIMROD=Dravidians.
SONS OF RAAMAH(proto kalenjin rmT) 1)SHEBA=Oromo 2)DEDAN=Somali.
How can NC A/B have DIFFERENT ancestors (If we're going by the bible) ? That doesn't make any sense at all. Secondly, so-called "Bantus" have cultural customs which are more in common with Shem compared to any descendants of Ham (Such a certain groups calling their god "Yah-Ab/Abé" meaning, "Yah is our father" , circumcision (not that unique, but still) , fringes/tassels on the border of their garments, called "tzitzit" in modern Hebrew, and "Tsitsiy" in bantu (the tsetse-fly also lives in the fring(es), hence its name, and you have other common words such as "Ben" ("son" in Hebrew) is "bena/bana" (son in Lingala, Kikongo etc) , water in Hebrew is "Mayim" (the "m" at the end is silent, it's pronounced like "my") in lingala it's "mayi" , in Oshiwambo its "Omeya" in Arabic it's "Maya" , and so forth) .
There's a closer connection between Africa & Arabia (and I know that Arabia is just an extension of North(east) Africa, really.) than most people like to acknowledge
Yes ,there are hebrew words in bantu,because hebrews were slaves in egypt.egypt consisted of many african ethnicities and bantus(hyksos) were part of them.Egyptianised hyksos Bantu canaanites were called TA-SETI(she-of seti).pharaoh RAMASES II of 19th dynasty had hyksos roots,even his father RAMASES I was a worshiper of SETH/SETI(egyptian dog deity),he was named/initiated SETI(he-of seti).when hyksos bantu immigrants from canaan,entered egypt,escaping semitic expansion of the palestine(edomites,ishmaelites,midianites,ammonites,moabites),they did not obey egypt martriachal law,hence were considered foreigners,they ruled 14th,15th,and 17th dynasties of egypt as foreigners.The kalenjin theban wasetians continued with 16th dynasty which fought with the hyksos dynasties.It was the proto-kalenjin pharaoh AMASIS of 18th dynasty that chased these bantus from egypt,except TA-MERU(she-of AMERU(Amorites)who settled in heriopolis,later MEROE(MERU) and TA-SETI(she-of seti)who settled in syene(aswan).SETI or SETH is the egyptian dog deity.both TA-SETI and TA-MERU were egyptianised bantus.pharaoh Ramses II was a Ta-seti bantu pharaoh,who had hyksos bantu roots,his father Ramses I was a worshiper of SETH/SETI,there he was called SETI(he-of seti).Ta-meru bantus were loyal to theban wasetian egyptians(proto-kalenjin)and both worshiped the same deities e.g ASIS,HATHOR(yator in kalenjin)and AMUN(amoni in kalenjin).SEMITES who took bantu hyksos land in canaan were edomites today are palestinians of gaza strip,they took the land of the dogon people of west africa,who are the biblical PHILISTINES(philistim) Topic: DESCENDANTS OF ANCIENT PHILISTINES TODAY IN WEST AFRICA. ,ishmaelites and midianites(bedouins) today are arabs of saudiarabia.later migrated to egypt,sudan,algeria,libya and qatar during RASHIDUN CALIPHATE.Ammonites and moabites are today's Jordanians took part of amorite lands.other parts of amorite/AMERU lands would be taken later by jews.known to egyptians as TA-SHEMU(she-of shem) web page: ANCIENT AMORITES MIGRATED TO AFRICA.. ALL JEWISH GROUPS HAVE AFRICAN ANCESTRY After the persian invasion of egypt,some jews followed the TA-MERU bantus(ameru,abakuria,mwila,herero,mijikenda,ngoni,shona) up the nile to great lakes region and south africa.These jews today are called LEMBA.In swahili/mijikenda bantu,LEMBA or KI-LEMBA means TURBAN,that means the lemba jews were levites wearing turbans.other jews migrated to west africa with RETH/RETEHU west african bantus(igbo,yoruba,ashanti,akan),towards TA-NETJER(she-of niger)land.one biblical evidence showing us even the cities jews dwelt in egypt is Jeremiah 44:1
quote:44 The word that came to Jeremiah concerning all the Jews which dwell in the land of Egypt, which dwell at Migdol, and at Tahpanhes, and at Noph, and in the country of Pathros, saying,
.
remember egypt was made up of different african ethnicities therefore it was called LAND OF HAM(land of africans),psalms 105:23
quote: 23 Israel also came into Egypt; and Jacob sojourned in the land of Ham.
and psalms 106:22
quote:22 Wondrous works in the land of Ham, and terrible things by the Red sea.
.Egypt is also called TARBANACLES OF HAM(Tents of africans).In Psalms 78:51
quote: 51 And smote all the firstborn in Egypt; the chief of their strength in the tabernacles of Ham:
.Ham son of noah was the father of all africans.SHEM son of noah was the father of all SHEMITIC(semitic)and asiatic people including mongoloids,JAPHET son of noah was the father of all white caucasians. EGYPT WAS A CONFEDERATION OF AFRICAN TRIBES. ISaiah 19:13
quote:13 The princes of Zoan are become fools, the princes of Noph are deceived; they have also seduced Egypt, even they that are the stay of the tribes thereof .
. DIFFERENT KINGS AND PRINCES IN EGYPT. Jeremiah 46:25
quote:25 The Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, saith; Behold, I will punish the multitude of No, and Pharaoh, and Egypt, with their gods , and their kings ; even Pharaoh, and all them that trust in him:
. KINGDOMS OF EGYPT Isaiah 19:2
quote:2 And I will set the Egyptians against the Egyptians: and they shall fight every one against his brother, and every one against his neighbour; city against city, and kingdom against kingdom .
As I said. The Bantu expansion, as “recorded” NEVER occurred. Don’t believe me?! Here!! As I said many times. Bantus in West Africa are the youngest of Africans. The Bantu Expansion is another lie to disassembly and confuse the relationship amongst Africans. .
======= Bidirectional gene flow between Central and Eastern Africa in the Early Holocene and low genetic input of East African mtDNA lineages into Bantu populations before their expansion South - Silva Marina 1, Farida
SEPT 2014
The Bantu expansion had a major impact in Africa, with consequences both at cultural and genetic levels. It started in the region of Cameroon and Nigeria less than 5 thousand years ago (5 ka) [1) and it is thought to have taken two main routes into South Africa: (1) throughout the west through Angola around 3.5 ka and (2) towards the Great Lakes in East Africa, reaching the region of Uganda about 2.5 ka, where they stayed for a few hundred years, expanding later into the south, having reached Mozambique by 1.8 ka [1], The latter (Eastern route) is of particular interest to study potential crossings between migrants and local central populations during the period in which the Bantu people were stationed in the Great Lakes region. Regarding L2 haplogroup, despite its Western origin, it is nowadays very frequent also in Eastern and Southern Africa. Considering this pattern, L2 movements been POSTULATED to be related to the Bantu expansion. However, a previous analysis based on HVS-J (Hypervariable segment s) of mtDNA showed that the expansion to the East might have occurred MUCH EARLIER, during the improvement of environmental conditions in the early Holocene (around 10 to 12 ka). The present study aims to reconstruct the phylogeny of L2 haplogroup, in order to provide insights on the complex net of migrations that occurred in Africa in the last thousand years. We sequenced 50 mitogenomes representative of the haplogroup diversity across Africa (with focus on East Africa), which were combined with more than 500 sequences available in online databases. Phylogenetic reconstruction was performed using parsimony, maximum likelihood and Bayesian inference, employing different molecular clocks (including a whole-genome clock corrected for purifying selection and a synonymous dock) [2]. Our phylogenetic analysis of complete mtDNA L2 sequences indicates that lineages in Southern Africa DIFFER from the ones in East Africa and cluster directly with Central/West African lineages at a recent time scale. On the other hand, lineages in the East seem to be **MUCH **older, suggesting that L2 most probably arrived in the East earlier than the Bantu expansion, in Early Holocene, when climate conditions improved and gene flow across Central Africa was probably frequent l3 J. The same pattern is observed in haplogroup L0a, but in an opposite direction. L0a had its origin in the East (being today common in the South) and moved to Central Africa also during the improvement of climatic conditions [4]. Similarly, south lineages of LOa do NOT seem to be related with those in the East. These evidence, together with the absence of Eastern typical haplogroups (L4, L5, L6, L3h, L3i) in the South, suggest that Bantu permanence in East Africa did not result in admixture with local populations and the population that migrated South had almost entirely ancestry in a Central African mtDNA gene pool. We concluded that two different independent major expansions were associated to haplogroup L2: an initial, and more ancient migration (during the Early Holocene) and potentially driven by climatic improvement around 10 to 12 ka (when L2lineagcs arrived in East Africa) and, more recently, the Bantu Expansion, that took L2 towards the South.
====
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
I own this!!!
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Some of you guys may be more “knowledgeable than me on what is “documented” in the history books. But the lies, as written in these books, are slowly being exposed.
Maybe someone can help me out here. With the little research I have done, I have my doubts there existed an autochronous “Phoenician Civilization”. “Phoenicians” never travelled the sea building Ports and cities. The evidence is I am gathering shows that many of these cities were built by indigenous peoples of those lands.
.Maybe someone will talk me off the ledge. Tell me I am wrong. But more pointedly, provide the evidence.
But, I know now that I am right about the Bantu Expansion.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Oh! And Lioness. How do you think they surmised that the East African Bantus are older than the West African Bantus? Tic! Toc! Haplotype comparison within L0a and L2. See, they will disclose the information when they want to.
This is not rocket science.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: ] As I said. The Bantu expansion, as “recorded” NEVER occurred. Don’t believe me?! Here!! As I said many times. Bantus in West Africa are the youngest of Africans. The Bantu Expansion is another lie to disassembly and confuse the relationship amongst Africans. .
======= Bidirectional gene flow between Central and Eastern Africa in the Early Holocene and low genetic input of East African mtDNA lineages into Bantu populations before their expansion South - Silva Marina 1, Farida
SEPT 2014
The Bantu expansion had a major impact in Africa, with consequences both at cultural and genetic levels. It started in the region of Cameroon and Nigeria less than 5 thousand years ago (5 ka) [1) and it is thought to have taken two main routes into South Africa: (1) throughout the west through Angola around 3.5 ka and (2) towards the Great Lakes in East Africa, reaching the region of Uganda about 2.5 ka, where they stayed for a few hundred years, expanding later into the south, having reached Mozambique by 1.8 ka [1], The latter (Eastern route) is of particular interest to study potential crossings between migrants and local central populations during the period in which the Bantu people were stationed in the Great Lakes region. Regarding L2 haplogroup, despite its Western origin, it is nowadays very frequent also in Eastern and Southern Africa. Considering this pattern, L2 movements been POSTULATED to be related to the Bantu expansion. However, a previous analysis based on HVS-J (Hypervariable segment s) of mtDNA showed that the expansion to the East might have occurred MUCH EARLIER, during the improvement of environmental conditions in the early Holocene (around 10 to 12 ka). The present study aims to reconstruct the phylogeny of L2 haplogroup, in order to provide insights on the complex net of migrations that occurred in Africa in the last thousand years. We sequenced 50 mitogenomes representative of the haplogroup diversity across Africa (with focus on East Africa), which were combined with more than 500 sequences available in online databases. Phylogenetic reconstruction was performed using parsimony, maximum likelihood and Bayesian inference, employing different molecular clocks (including a whole-genome clock corrected for purifying selection and a synonymous dock) [2]. Our phylogenetic analysis of complete mtDNA L2 sequences indicates that lineages in Southern Africa DIFFER from the ones in East Africa and cluster directly with Central/West African lineages at a recent time scale. On the other hand, lineages in the East seem to be **MUCH **older, suggesting that L2 most probably arrived in the East earlier than the Bantu expansion, in Early Holocene, when climate conditions improved and gene flow across Central Africa was probably frequent l3 J. The same pattern is observed in haplogroup L0a, but in an opposite direction. L0a had its origin in the East (being today common in the South) and moved to Central Africa also during the improvement of climatic conditions [4]. Similarly, south lineages of LOa do NOT seem to be related with those in the East. These evidence, together with the absence of Eastern typical haplogroups (L4, L5, L6, L3h, L3i) in the South, suggest that Bantu permanence in East Africa did not result in admixture with local populations and the population that migrated South had almost entirely ancestry in a Central African mtDNA gene pool. We concluded that two different independent major expansions were associated to haplogroup L2: an initial, and more ancient migration (during the Early Holocene) and potentially driven by climatic improvement around 10 to 12 ka (when L2lineagcs arrived in East Africa) and, more recently, the Bantu Expansion, that took L2 towards the South.
==== [/QB]
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Originally posted by xyyman: [b] As I said. The Bantu expansion, as “recorded” NEVER occurred. Don’t believe me?! Here!! As I said many times. Bantus in West Africa are the youngest of Africans. The Bantu Expansion is another lie to disassembly and confuse the relationship amongst Africans.
Clarify this XYZ. What do you mean never occurred as recorded and why? Give more detail.. The reference you post says there was an expansion. And if there was no expansion what is your alternative scenario?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
No! The author is stating the literature/as recorded proposes a Bantu Expansion. That is his "starting pointing". He starts with that assumption and set about to prove or disprove it. However his data is showing there was NOT a movement of Bantus from West Africa to East Africa.
He concluded that there is no genetic evidence of Bantus migrating from Cameroon/Nigeria to East Africa. Infact the Bantu speakers of East Africa are much much older than West Africans.
There is no alternative scenarios. This latest(2014) study corraborates all the previous studies I cited.
The Bantu Expansion never occured....as recorded in history books. It is all BS.
Reading and comprehension
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Originally posted by xyyman: [b] As I said. The Bantu expansion, as “recorded” NEVER occurred. Don’t believe me?! Here!! As I said many times. Bantus in West Africa are the youngest of Africans. The Bantu Expansion is another lie to disassembly and confuse the relationship amongst Africans.
Clarify this XYZ. What do you mean never occurred as recorded and why? Give more detail.. The reference you post says there was an expansion. And if there was no expansion what is your alternative scenario?
^^^xyyman, genius or wacko ?
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote: It is all BS.Reading and comprehension
The author you reference is one in a long line of authors who reitorate the pre-Bantu antiquity of L2 outside of West Africa. How else would it be in PPN and Fezzan aDNA?
*Scratching my head* What exactly is it that you deem so revolutionary and newsworthy here in regards to orthodox Bantu migration theory?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Ok. I will bite. What is the genetic signature of the Bantu Expansion?
thread slowly now. ....you now what you are in for.
Educate us...no..me
Quote from the paper: L2 movements been POSTULATED to be related to the Bantu expansion.
reading comprehension. I expect better from you.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote: It is all BS.Reading and comprehension
The author you reference is one in a long line of authors who reitorate the pre-Bantu antiquity of L2 outside of West Africa. How else would it be in PPN and Fezzan aDNA?
*Scratching my head* What exactly is it that you deem so revolutionary and newsworthy here in regards to orthodox Bantu migration theory?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
I try to make these post idiot proof by bolding relevant sections. But yet I get these dumb questions and challenges.
What don't you understand by "postulated to be the signature of Bantu Expansion." SMH.
You are probably a Art or Writer major. Science and logic is NOT your strong point.
So educate me...and the author. What is the genetic signature of the Bantu Expansion.
@ Lioness. I will read and followup on that NEW paper. It looks like they are using SNP/AIM and NOT haplotypes comparison. And you know what that leads to.....
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Oh! And Lioness. How do you think they surmised that the East African Bantus are older than the West African Bantus? Tic! Toc! Haplotype comparison within L0a and L2. See, they will disclose the information when they want to.
This is not rocket science.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: ] As I said. The Bantu expansion, as “recorded” NEVER occurred. Don’t believe me?! Here!! As I said many times. Bantus in West Africa are the youngest of Africans. The Bantu Expansion is another lie to disassembly and confuse the relationship amongst Africans. .
======= Bidirectional gene flow between Central and Eastern Africa in the Early Holocene and low genetic input of East African mtDNA lineages into Bantu populations before their expansion South - Silva Marina 1, Farida
SEPT 2014
The Bantu expansion had a major impact in Africa, with consequences both at cultural and genetic levels. It started in the region of Cameroon and Nigeria less than 5 thousand years ago (5 ka) [1) and it is thought to have taken two main routes into South Africa: (1) throughout the west through Angola around 3.5 ka and (2) towards the Great Lakes in East Africa, reaching the region of Uganda about 2.5 ka, where they stayed for a few hundred years, expanding later into the south, having reached Mozambique by 1.8 ka [1], The latter (Eastern route) is of particular interest to study potential crossings between migrants and local central populations during the period in which the Bantu people were stationed in the Great Lakes region. Regarding L2 haplogroup, despite its Western origin, it is nowadays very frequent also in Eastern and Southern Africa. Considering this pattern, L2 movements been POSTULATED to be related to the Bantu expansion. However, a previous analysis based on HVS-J (Hypervariable segment s) of mtDNA showed that the expansion to the East might have occurred MUCH EARLIER, during the improvement of environmental conditions in the early Holocene (around 10 to 12 ka). The present study aims to reconstruct the phylogeny of L2 haplogroup, in order to provide insights on the complex net of migrations that occurred in Africa in the last thousand years. We sequenced 50 mitogenomes representative of the haplogroup diversity across Africa (with focus on East Africa), which were combined with more than 500 sequences available in online databases. Phylogenetic reconstruction was performed using parsimony, maximum likelihood and Bayesian inference, employing different molecular clocks (including a whole-genome clock corrected for purifying selection and a synonymous dock) [2]. Our phylogenetic analysis of complete mtDNA L2 sequences indicates that lineages in Southern Africa DIFFER from the ones in East Africa and cluster directly with Central/West African lineages at a recent time scale. On the other hand, lineages in the East seem to be **MUCH **older, suggesting that L2 most probably arrived in the East earlier than the Bantu expansion, in Early Holocene, when climate conditions improved and gene flow across Central Africa was probably frequent l3 J. The same pattern is observed in haplogroup L0a, but in an opposite direction. L0a had its origin in the East (being today common in the South) and moved to Central Africa also during the improvement of climatic conditions [4]. Similarly, south lineages of LOa do NOT seem to be related with those in the East. These evidence, together with the absence of Eastern typical haplogroups (L4, L5, L6, L3h, L3i) in the South, suggest that Bantu permanence in East Africa did not result in admixture with local populations and the population that migrated South had almost entirely ancestry in a Central African mtDNA gene pool. We concluded that two different independent major expansions were associated to haplogroup L2: an initial, and more ancient migration (during the Early Holocene) and potentially driven by climatic improvement around 10 to 12 ka (when L2lineagcs arrived in East Africa) and, more recently, the Bantu Expansion, that took L2 towards the South.
====
[/QB]
Where is this paper?
.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
.
From your cited study – ----- 3. Results We interrogate genetic data to better understand the spread of the west African genetic component that accompanied the expanding Bantu-speaking people, from the region that the Bantu expansion is POSTULATED to have started from (Nigeria and Cameroon), throughout the rest of the African continent. In a supervised clustering analysis, the west African ancestry was clearly visible throughout the whole of sub-Saharan Africa (light green component in figure 3a and dark red component in figure 3b). A reduction in the west African component is seen for the regions where other separate linguistic groups still coexist with Niger–Kordofanian/Bantu-speaking groups (Afro-Asiatic in northern Africa; Nilo-Saharan, Afro- Asiatic and Khoisan for eastern Africa; and Khoisan for southern Africa). The distinct clusters for these three different additional African linguistic groups also became apparent as the number of assumed clusters (K) increased (figure 3b and electronic supplementary material, S2; see also [9,32]) but the west African genetic component remains present in many populations and areas of the African continent (figure 3; electronic supplementary material, S2 and S3).
-------
Notice many Nilo-Saharans do not speak Bantu but carry a high frequency of green, Fig3 .
Because Mexico has more Chevy’s than the US does not mean Chevy is a Mexican car.(play jeopardy song).
That approach has been outdated since the early 1990’s. Their mathematical model is based upon the starting assumption that high frequency indicates ORIGIN, yet admit , the marker(AIM) is also found in Non-Bantus.
So it still, stands, the Bantu Expansion is a lie!!! There is no genetic data proving the migration of Bantus from West Africa to East Africa. Nein!!!
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Originally posted by xyyman: [b] As I said. The Bantu expansion, as “recorded” NEVER occurred. Don’t believe me?! Here!! As I said many times. Bantus in West Africa are the youngest of Africans. The Bantu Expansion is another lie to disassembly and confuse the relationship amongst Africans.
Clarify this XYZ. What do you mean never occurred as recorded and why? Give more detail.. The reference you post says there was an expansion. And if there was no expansion what is your alternative scenario?
Confusing ancestral OOA with Eurasian is something the Euronuts seem to be good at doing.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
No, I don't mean ancestral OOA I mean OOA. For me, OOA is ancestral to Eurasian not synonymous.
Ya see, for me, the whole problem is apposing OOA to African. It'll never happen but I would appose Out of Africa to Stayed in Africa which immediately nulls OOA = EurAsian.
SIA vs OOA are both "conditions" (non-event vs event).
Notice the academe apposes Out of Africa (an event/condition) to African (people).
Need I spell out the dialectic?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Of course not. I know exactly what you mean. That's also what I meant when I write ancestral OOA, that is ancestral to Eurasians.
This is why for example there is much confusion in regards to the very start of Spencer Wells' Journey of Man Nat Geo Genographic mapping where it places 'Eurasian Adam' in East Africa, since most folks presume Eurasian Adam began in Eurasia.
, supposedly genetically different
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
