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Author Topic:   Legal marriage in Egypt between an Egyptian and a non-Egyptian
Jacqueline
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posted 17 November 2001 12:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jacqueline     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There is only one way that a non-Egyptian can get legally married to an Egyptian in Egypt and that is at the ministry of justice at Lazoughly Square in Cairo. There is a prevalent practice in Egypt, particularly Luxor, of Egyptian men taking their foreign girlfriends to a lawyers office and 'getting married'. The papers they give you will satisfy the police if you are challenged when out together in the evenings and will satisfy the landlord of any flat that you rent so that you can live together, but this is not a legal marriage.

[This message has been edited by Jacqueline (edited 01 January 2003).]

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Vito
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posted 17 November 2001 01:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Vito     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
u r totally right,,,,but this stupid egyptions needs to be punished and prevented from doing such silly behaviors....sorry again,i know it's a shame

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D Advocate
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posted 18 November 2001 12:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for D Advocate     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jacqueline

You said “The papers they give you will satisfy the police if you are challenged when out together in the evenings and will satisfy the landlord of any flat that you rent so that you can live together, but this is not a legal marriage.”
The fact that the police recognize this paper means that it is legal from their point of view. Which leads me to think that this paper has some legal and even social value. The paper may or may not be legal in the country of the foreign spouse. Several members of this forum have good experience with this sort of thing. It seems that in Egypt there are several forms of marriage, not all of which are recognized by all parties. Then there is the issue of rights.
When two people are living together, committed to each other and this relationship is known within their community (i.e. it is not secretive), then in my world this marriage. Other things are merely contractual arrangements to protect the rights of each party to the marriage. It is interesting to note that a common-law spouse in one country has far more rights that a female spouse who is married legally in Egypt and her marriage is fully recognized by all parties if the relationship ends.

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Vito
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posted 18 November 2001 12:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Vito     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
this paper is legaly accepted coz the law has issued this paper to ease the marriage."i don know the full story of this paper"...so legaly it is accepted....
yes may be in ur country just when u live with someone and share him in everything,this is considered as marriage...
So the paper is Legaly and Logicly accepted....
BUT here in egypt we have customes and traditions wich this paper doesn't claim the women's rights coz of some evil men.who marry and divorce without even telling thier wives,also if there r kids have been borned this bad guys may not admit this kids....so here many people don't accept to admit this this paper,just to save the girls and women from bad men,,,
in addition to our religion wich recommend that marriage should be declared to people and families wich this paper may lack.

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allymcyew
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posted 19 November 2001 03:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for allymcyew     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A true marriage for a nonEgyptian to an Egyptian in Egypt is at the Ministry of Justice, by a maazum there. So, it is not just that it has to be done before a notary public. Secondly, the simple paperwork that can be drawn up in a lawyers office represents the orfi marriage. It is legal, as someone says that the police will recognize it, but marriage is more than legalizing the union. In Egypt, there are rights and obligations of the parties and this orfi-form of marriage allows the husband (mainly) to ignore his obligation to the wife, such as notifying his wife his intent to marry. In Egypt, the wife has the right to divorce her husband if he wants to take on another wife. Under orfi, he can have many wives in secret of one another. Then, of course, the orfi paper can be ripped up and the foreign wife will never be able to prove her status.

Women in love or in lust or who are desperate may rationalize this very selfish form of "marriage" to an unbelievable degree. In my opinion, a good and honest man is worth waiting for.

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Alabanda
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posted 18 December 2001 11:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Alabanda     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree so much with Allymcyew, Orfi marriage is used only to escape from rights and obligations to the wives. And I would like to add to the negatives of Orfi marriage that its not only ignoring rights and obligations to the wives its also being able to deny the children if this marriage ended up with children. the husband can just deny having anything to do with those children and he doesnt have to support them or their mother then... "In my opinion, a good and honest man is worth waiting for."and I would add to these words that In my opinion, a good and honest man wouldnt offer that type of marriage. Just ask him Why not formal marriage?

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Jacqueline
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posted 31 December 2002 12:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jacqueline     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would like to clarify the point I made when I started this topic, that is that any marriage between an Egyptian and a non-Egyptian must take place at the ministry of justice in Cairo. Anything other than that is not in any way legal. Anyone who doubts this should contact the british embassy in cairo or read the guidance on this subject on their website. The police in Luxor will stop hassling you if you have a paper from a lawyer, not because they accept it as legal but merely because if you have this paper it is evidence to them that you are with your man through choice and that you are presumably not being harrassed by this man and therefore not in need of the interference of the local police. If any of them do believe it to be legal then they are in ignorance of the law. I can assure anyone that there are no legal or other obligations of any kind that can be brought to bear on either party unless they were married at the ministry of justice in Cairo because as far as the legal system in Egypt is concerned you are not married. My only purpose in initiating this topic was merely for the information of non-Egyptian women who may be duped into believing that marriage at a lawyers office is a true and legal commitment, it is not. I know of many egyptian men who have lawyers papers for many non-egyptian women each of whom they see at regular intervals when they visit egypt. Each of these women believe that they are married and that they are the only one. Meanwhile they often have an egyptian legal wife who also may know nothing of her husbands activities. When his foreign women visit he may tell his egyptian wife that he has found some temporary work in another town to explain his absence, she will expect him to return with money which of course he does because these foreign women are duped into giving him money. He will tell them that he is the eldest son and that his father is too old to work and that he is the sole support of his parents and his six brothers and sisters. He may say that he needs money to pay for an operation for his father or that his father invested in a bad business deal and will go to prison if he doesnt find a substantial sum of money. If your man wants to marry you tell him to take you to the ministry of justice in cairo. He may take you to a lawyer in Luxor who will tell you if you challenge him that this is a legal marriage, he is a liar. Tell him that the british embassy in cairo have told you that you can only get married there. The lawyer, upon the instruction of your man may not give you a copy of the paper you sign, however if you have one, take it to the british embassy in cairo and they will promptly tell you that you are not married.

[This message has been edited by Jacqueline (edited 01 January 2003).]

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niledoc
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posted 05 January 2003 06:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for niledoc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

[This message has been edited by niledoc (edited 21 October 2003).]

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Shareen
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posted 05 January 2003 11:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Shareen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Lol, gotta leap in on this one in defence of Orfi marriage.
I think most foreign women who have Orfi marriages in Luxor are fully aware that it gives them no marital rights. It is not a marriage and they have no illusions that it is. They may call themselves husband and wife, but in reality it is only in Egypt that they can use those titles. It is not a legal document in this country for sure. But it does allow a man and a woman to live together as husband and wife without constant hassle from the local police in Luxor. And one of the questions asked of the woman in the presence of lawyers and witnesses is.... Do you wish to marry this man? Thereby making the document real evidence that the woman is in the relationship out of her own choice.
Moral standards, on the surface, are different in western countries, a couple can and do live together without legalising their union. In Egypt this is not the done thing. So Orfi was created. It satisfies the Egyptian authorities and does not create a union which is difficult to get out of when it goes wrong.
As for children of these marriages. I think you will find that many Orfi marriages involve women who older, therefore have already had their families and have no desire for more babies, or they are past childbearing age.
Orfi has its place as long as both parties are fully aware that it actually means no more than a committment to each other whilst in Egypt.

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Jacqueline
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posted 05 January 2003 01:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jacqueline     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Many people in Egypt seem to be of the general opinion that european people have what they would regard as low sexual morality and that it is common for people in the west to live together and have children together without the benefit of marriage. They therefore probably dont care if foreign women are sleeping with their men without the benefit of marriage as long as it is not legal and as long as some of the money is coming their way. I think that this situation in Luxor is a disgraceful scandal which the authorities are happy to ignore possibly because they dont want to upset the rich middle aged woman coming to Luxor to have sex with young men or indeed the many men that go to Luxor also to have sex with young Egyptian men - for a price. These men should be prosecuted under egyptian law, they would be if they were having extramarital sex with egyptian women or homosexual sex with egyptian men. I even know women who are legally married in their own country and still contract an orfi marriage with one or more egyptian men thereby they are both commiting adultery which under Islam is punishable by death. Under egyptian law fornication can lead to six months in prison and adultery to three years in prison. These men get away with it because they are doing it to foreign women not egyptian women.If women go into these Orfi marriages knowing them for exactly what they are-an unofficial licence to have sex without any responsibilities then fair enough. What I object to is where the woman believes that she is really married and that the man has made a real and lasting commitment to their relationship. In any kind of relationship any kind of deception as to the participants true intentions is disgraceful. The reasons why this is ignored by the authorities are purely economic in my opinion-keep the tourists coming and keep them happy-who cares if there are illegitimate children and women whose hearts get broken-as long as the money keeps coming in to Egypt.

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Shareen
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posted 05 January 2003 05:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Shareen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree with you wholeheartedly Jacqueline, that if deception is used and the women firmly believe they have a lasting committment by their Orfi "husband" then it is disgraceful.
I know of many who do believe they are in a lasting relationship and are wanted purely for themselves and not for the good life that comes with them. But I also know of women who are fully aware of the situation and are happy with that. I reiterate, as long as both parties are fully aware what the committment is, then I see no problem. After all, isnt it better to be Orfi married and just have the one partner than to have a really bad reputation by sleeping with someone to whom you are not married?
I do know of some too, who are as you say legally married in England and Orfi married in Egypt. In fact, I know of one woman who is married here, and has 2 Orfi marriages. One to a man in Cairo and one to a West Banker. Naughty huh?
But who am I to judge? Its her life, if she wishes to give away her money for sex, then that is her choice.
Lol, just as a matter of interest, I must tell you I have been Orfi married. It only lasted until the first request for money. But it was fun while it lasted

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Jacqueline
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posted 06 January 2003 01:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jacqueline     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Shareen, just out of interest, when you went into an Orfi marriage did you know exactly the nature of it or did you find out from others afterwards. If you did know exactly what it was before you did it, how did you find out, from your man or from some other source?

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niledoc
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posted 06 January 2003 03:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for niledoc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

[This message has been edited by niledoc (edited 21 October 2003).]

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Jacqueline
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posted 06 January 2003 03:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jacqueline     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I wasnt aware that AIDS was particularly prevalent in Luxor. There is so much promiscuity going on there though that I suppose all STD's are prevalent. I have noticed however from comments made to me by non-egyptian women that egyptian men seem anxious about the possibility of contracting STD's paricularly AIDS from them. I even know of an egyptian man who would not have sex with his italian girlfriend without a condom until she brought him a medical certificate to prove that she did not have AIDS. I know an english woman who refused to allow an egyptian man that she was friendly with to kiss her, he assumed that she must have some infectious disease in her mouth and that this was the reason for her refusal. I suppose it would never occur to him that either she didnt fancy him or that she had higher sexual morals than he did. When she later refused to have sex with him he immediately jumped to the conclusion that she must have some sort of STD. I suppose no tourist has ever refused his advances before.

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Shareen
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posted 06 January 2003 06:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Shareen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jacqueline
In answer to your questions.... I knew exactly what Orfi marriage was long before I went into it. I knew from friends in Luxor and from friends here in England. I also knew the dangers.... extremely well. I have friends who have lost everything and friends who have been severely beaten. All of whom went into Orfi without realising it wasnt a true marriage. My last trip to Luxor was particularly bad. My friend who travelled with me to stay with her "husband" was very badly beaten while we were there. I guess I have been lucky. I know of many many horror stories.
I hope that answers your questions. Basically I had been visiting Luxor for a long time before I even met the man I "married". And I knew him for 2 years before I succumbed. Unfortunately.. lol... it did not last very long. He did nothing wrong other than ask me for money, but it was enough for me to end it. Long story.... and I am not prepared to expand on it here. But I know it was only the beginning. So it was better to end it sooner rather than later. I have yet to find out what the repercussions are.
As for std's..... I agree that the biggest problem is that they seem to think that they are at a bigger risk from us than we ever would be from them. Safe sex is vital! Who knows who is right or wrong.. but which ever way it goes..... keep it safe.
I guess because my own experience of Orfi has been good by most standards, I defend it.. but as I have said before, only if the woman about to embark on the "adventure" is fully and completely aware of the pitfalls.
Niledoc.....
I think if there are cases of Aids in Luxor, and I do not profess to know whether there are or not.... it is not because of the permissive behaviour of foreign women, but because of the permissive behaviour of the egyptian men, with both men and women. We are all fully aware of the "gay" faction which visit regularly. My first knowledge of this was on my very first trip to Egypt. A Nile cruise with some interesting discussions with a couple on the same holiday. Certainly opened my eyes! Wife on the sundeck while hubby was in the cabin with..... ?????
As for Orfi being illegal, I cannot comment one way or another. All I know is I signed a paper drawn up by a lawyer, in front of witnesses, translated for me by an english friend. It looked legal enough for me.

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Jacqueline
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posted 07 January 2003 01:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jacqueline     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Shareen, thankyou for your frank and honest reply. It saddens and angers me when I hear of women being badly treated by men. Whilst like yourself I wasnt as naive as many women that I have met and heard about since my first trip to egypt, if I had known what I know now I doubt if I would ever have considered marriage to an egyptian and I would have missed out on the last two years which have been the happiest of my life. I absolutely adore my husband and could not even imagine what life would be like without him. I realise that I have been extremely lucky, he could have turned out to be rotten like many others - he still could - theres time yet I suppose. Why are men such bastards, is it something in their Y chromosome or what?
As for whether Orfi marriage between egyptians and non-egyptians is legal I have absolutely no doubt that it is of no legal value whatsover. One reason that I am so sure is that I have it on the authority of the egyptian embassy in london and the british embassy in cairo that the only way to get a legal marriage is at the ministry of justice in cairo and that orfi marriage is not legal at all either in egypt or the country of the non-egyptian spouse. However orfi marriage between two egyptians in some cases may have some legal value but never between egyptians and non-egyptians. The main reason for this is that the non-egyptian has to have a document from their embassy to prove that they are free to marry and this is not requested in orfi marriage so orfi marriage to non-egyptians can never be legal. I know of women who are legally married in england but have orfi marriages in egypt, how can this be legal, a woman can have only one husband at a time, why do lawyers not ask for proof of divorce if the woman has been married before? because they know it isnt legal anyway so they dont have to bother and they dont care, all they want is your 200LE or whatever they have managed to screw you for. Many orfi marriage papers to non-egyptians that I have seen also make no mention of a dowry, if there is no dowry there cannot be a legal marriage as this is essential in egypt under the marriage laws. Anyone who doubts this can easily verify this for themselves by contacting the egyptian embassy in their own country and their own embassy in egypt. The reason why lawyers get away with it is because if any couple planning to marry wishes to have a lawyers contract to have additional conditions added to the standard marriage contract drawn up by the mazoon at the marriage court, they can do so. This is the case whether both or only one of the parties are egyptian. Lawyers if challenged will simply claim that this is all they did and that it was not their responsibily or business whether the couple then used that paper to add to the paper at the marriage court or whether they even went to the marriage court. The lawyer will claim that he drew up the contract in good faith and that if the couple didnt go ahead with the marriage at the marriage court then this is not his problem, that he has done nothing wrong. The british embassy in cairo has a pro-forma marriage contract that they had prepared by an egptian female lawyer based in cairo and will give you a copy of it free of charge. This contract takes advantage of many recent changes in the marriage laws that can give women more rights if the man agrees to sign the contract. This contract has to be taken to a lawyer for both parties and witnesses to sign. This is not a marriage paper, it is a kind of pre-nuptial contract that is only enforcable if the marriage takes place and the contract is presented to the mazoon at the time of the marriage. You then take this to the ministry of justice, they will ask if you want to add anything to the standard contract, you then give them this other contract and they will add the conditions to the standard contract as long as the conditions are valid in law and agreed by both parties. So what you have from the lawyer is not a marriage contract but merely a pre-nuptial agreement that has no validity unless the marriage actually takes place. I can therefore assure you and anyone else that has this kind of paper that you are not married so you need have no fear of any legal repercussions regarding this paper.

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Shareen
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posted 07 January 2003 05:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Shareen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Jacqueline
I'm glad you appreciated a frank and honest reply. Thank you.
Congratulations on your marriage. You are indeed lucky to have a successful marriage. And that goes no matter which country you live in or what nationality you have married. It takes hard work to make a marriage work, and sometimes even that isnt enough. And to be married to a man from a different culture is even harder. Nice one girl!
I too, am extremely saddened and angered by the abuse some women suffer at the hands of men. One of my particular friends who suffered at the hands of a man, now will not go back to Luxor just in case she sees him in the street. She is so afraid. Such a shame because her love of Egypt itself is so strong. Hopefully one day she will find the strength to return. That man physically and mentally abused her, as well as reducing her life savings zero. Here she is a strong woman, brought up her children by herself... and completely fell for the line he spun. I saw with my own eyes the evilness in that man. All I can say is...... I am so looking forward to bumping into him myself... Just for once, you may find me in the Kings Head or lurking in a corner in the Tut disco.... lmao.... beware!!!!

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deborah
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posted 22 June 2003 11:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for deborah     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi, I've just returned from Luxor for the second time this year with my parents. On my first visit in Feb I met Jack, who I fell in love with. Its all been quite sudden but I am sure of my feelings for him, the months of waiting to see him again after meeting in Feb were agonising! When Jack asked me if I would marry him, I didnt hesitate, I said yes. We talked about when we would see each other again and he talked of a 'paper' that would allow us to be together without being hassled etc and would let us share a flat for a week when i came. Jack told me the paper cost £900.00, as I didn't have that sort of cash, he paid for it, money he had saved. I didn't understand why a peice of paper could cost so much! He explained that it wasn't a marriage licence or marriage certificate but it was just so we could be together. He told me that we have to go to Cairo to get married legally, which I know as I loked at their website. After reading your postings about some relationships between Egyptian men and English women,naturally I'm slightly concerened. I guess the paper that Jack was telling about, he showed me it when I returned last week, was green, is this orfi-marriage thing? He tried to translate it for me, he speaks excellent English. We brought each other our wedding rings while I was there and on my last day he took me to meet his mother and family at his home.Jack has asked me for no money - only the money for the flat which was £250.00 and seeing as he paid around £900.00 for the 'paper' I thought it was only fair to pay for the flat. We had a fantastic time, my mum and dad came too, they stayed in the hotel. I guess I just wanted some kind of assurance as you seem to know a lot about this orfi-marriage thing. please feel free to email me
charmed0001@aol.com

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Nefertiti
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posted 22 June 2003 06:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Nefertiti     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Deborah

I wasn't going to reply to you because i don't know much about Orfi and i don't know much about Luxor, but if that was an Orfi paper then i'm sure it should have only cost you about LE£100 - 300. I'm sure someone else can clarify. Did he pay 900 egyptian pounds or some other currency?!? Were you not there when he got the Orfi paper? From what i understand for it to be Orfi, you would have to be there too, because you need to sign and you must have 2 witnesses. Also i think that you usually get an English translation.

You rented a flat for £250, was that Egyptian or English pounds? Like i said before i don't know much about Luxor, but if you paid £250 English pounds what did you rent... a mansion!?! Can someone else clarify if it's usual to pay that much in Luxor? It seems quite high to me which means that someone may have taken commission for finding you the flat. An Egyptian should be able to get you a good price. For an example, when i am in Egypt i stay in Hurghada and i pay between £70-100 sterling per month, for a 1 or 2 bedroom flat. Maybe Luxor is more expensive.... i don't know.

You say this guy was called Jack... was that a nickname? I wasn't aware that Egyptians had names like that!

I'm sorry that it seems like i'm interrogating you - seeing as you only wanted to know about Orfi, but your situation sounds strange and i'm sure you would like to know if unfortunately you have met one of the 'bad' Egyptians.

I hope someone can correct me where i may be wrong.

Good Luck

[This message has been edited by Nefertiti (edited 22 June 2003).]

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akshar
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posted 24 June 2003 05:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for akshar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have an Orfi marriage and Shareen and I have met in person and compared notes. Just to set my stall as it were.


Look guys/girls we all know the reality of any situation. How legal a contract is or is not doesn't mean **** all. It is about the person. Only you know that, us on the forums can give all we like but we don't know your man. Only you know that and if you are relying on us to judge your man you don't stand a chance.

When I first read about the different marriages and realised I was ORFI I was gutted, totally. when I phoned Mahmoud I threw a complete wobbly. However I soon realised my mistake, despite everything people say I am completely convinced that he did not know that this marriage was not halal in the eyes of the 'authorities' he wanted something that gave me respectability and protecte him and I. Egyptians go to prison for pre martial sex, he didn't want me judged by his friends and family. when I told him it wasn't marriage in England he was all for going to Cairo and doing it there but I (after speaking to Shareen) realised that ORFI is perfect for me, i have not intentions of having any more children and I wanted any English propery to remain with me and my child.

At the end of the day i have someone who told me last night that he was really jealous and wanted me for myself, well I am sorry only a man in love could say that, for God's sake I am 48 and fat what chance have I of attracting scores of nublie young men, but he thinks i could. Hurrah.


I totally believe in my Mahmoud, hey I could be wrong but only by testing the water can I find out. But I have kept on my property in England and I am renting it out so I have both an income and a refuge.

I have known Mahmoud 3 years and I know his family and they love me BUT who knows. I am taking it carefully but fully. I am emigrating, I have given him substainal sums of money and I taking my 11 year old daughter with me. But as I already said i have kept my house and I have good friends and I read forums like this so I am alive to the posibilites.

For me it is about your glass being half full or half empty, i am the half full brigade. I have had highs and lows in my life but never ever have i been boring.

Having said all that the price your man quoted is bollocks, Mahmoud told me tonight he paid under 20 quid for the whole deal including registration at the court, 2 months later.

Be careful my dear BUT enjoy your life.

quote:
Originally posted by deborah:
Jack told me the paper cost £900.00, as I didn't have that sort of cash, he paid for it, money he had saved. I didn't understand why a peice of paper could cost so much! He explained that it wasn't a marriage licence or marriage certificate but it was just so we could be together.

------------------

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ayman2
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posted 24 June 2003 06:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ayman2     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by akshar:

It is about the person. Only you know that, us on the forums can give all we like but we don't know your man. Only you know that and if you are relying on us to judge your man you don't stand a chance.

I could not have said it better.

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wise_woman
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posted 25 June 2003 01:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wise_woman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Deborah,

I rented a beautiful furnished 2 bedroom flat for 2 weeks (7 years ago)in Luxor it cost me less than £50 sterling.

From the little I know, an orfi paper costs about LE20.

Can you be sure the family he introduced you to was actually his family?

This wouldn't be the first time that an Egyptian man (who uses many nicknames) introduces his tourist girlfriend to a family on the opposite side of town from his real family.

No way does any "legal" document cost £900 English or LE 900 Egyptian pounds.
By telling you that he paid that kind of money for it, can only make you think more highly of him.

He must be earning great money and be in a fantastic job if he can save up £900 English for a piece of legal paper, that you weren't even there to understand, read and sign.

Do lawyers hand out legal papers to couples with just one of them being present?

If he does love you, he will, with chaperone, take you to Cairo to the address that Jacqueline provides in her opening post, and pay for documents at the Minstry of Justice and separate rooms in hotel. To keep everything respectable and proper.

He should treat you like the princess he probably says you are.
They all say that - you are his princess or queen.

There is nothing stopping him from having many tourist orfi wives, I have seen this happen.

If you want to be his pretend wife for 2 or 3 weeks of the year, then that's fine but you'll never know what's going on in his life the rest of the year.

They are rarely the exclusive partner of just one tourist. But some people don't mind sharing.

On your next holiday, would it be possible, someone on the board correct me if this isn't the Egyptian way, but if his family have a spare bed, could Deborah stay with them and truly experience Egyptian life?

So that if they accept her as his real and legal wife, chances are she will be expected to live with him and his family at the family home.

Let me understand this, your mother and father stayed in the hotel and allowed you to stay in a rented flat with a strange man you had met for 1 or 2 weeks before?

Would you share a flat, separate rooms of course, with the attractive man you speak to at the bus stop on the way to work, after chatting to him for a few weeks? Would you know him well enough to do that?

If anything happened to you at the flat, would you have the correct full name for this man, his address, any way of tracking him down?

I'm not having a go at you Deborah, just a bit surprised at the quickness of it all and concerned at the lack of your judgement when it comes to personal safety and falling in love so quickly.

I hope you get a chance to read some of the older postings on this board from other tourist girlfriends.

Others in the future will read this posting and we have all made some valid points.

If I got in a taxi and a man I hardly knew, but I knew his nickname, wanted to share it with me, I'd stick the heid on him.

I'm more aware of my safety abroad where everyone is a stranger.

Be careful and don't rush into anything.

[This message has been edited by wise_woman (edited 25 June 2003).]

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deborah
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posted 25 June 2003 02:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for deborah     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hello everyone,

And thank you for your honest replies, they are much appreciated. Trust is possibly one of the hardest feelings to feel when all of it has been betrayed in the past. When I met Jack, (his real name is Mustafa)I had no doubts about him, a first for me. I do love Jack, but I must admit your replys have given me some thinking and perhaps confronting to do. I wasn't asking you to judge my man - that is my job, i was asking for advice on this orfi marriage thing - i'm under no illusion that i'm legally married, I know i'm not.

thanks again

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Shareen
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posted 25 June 2003 05:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Shareen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Deborah
I did my own orfi last year, and it does not cost £900 for the paper. Even if your "husband" is robbing you, he probably wouldnt ask you for more than 500 LE. No way would it be anything like £900. I am assuming you mean sterling. As for the flat... once again, £250 is way way too high. 500LE is the maximum, although I do know if they are asking sterling, then the exchange rate would make it nearer 1000LE at the moment.
As for your boyfriend, there are nicknames such as Jack. In fact I know a Jack very well indeed. I am just hoping and praying that it isnt the same one, for your sake. But then again, there must be more than one Jack in Luxor.
I do visit Luxor regularly, and I know a lot of people there. If you would like to talk to me, please feel free to email me and I will give you any help and advice you may want. Lol, if I can... I am not an expert, just been around the block a few times. I am also in the UK, assuming you are too.

isis141@hotmail.com

Regards
Shareen

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LYAKOUT
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posted 04 July 2003 09:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LYAKOUT     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Deborah,
Hello. I am married to my Egyptian husband for a while now we live in Boston and he is ligit. I have met quite a few Egyptian men they are from Alexandria area v/s South Egypt so they maybe different. Each family has a different culture besides the Egyptian culture it's self. The men I know first of all aren't romantic it isnt' an Egyptian trait. They are hard workers and providers and never ever ever would discuss cost of things or money and never ask their wives for a dime. Orfi to them isn't a marriage it is a secret something to hide. If they love you they will come up with everything and marry you in Egypt. You will never become an Egyptian citizen since you are not of Egyptian blood and neither would your children. The cost of living is very low and so is the income. True men of Egypt are hard workers and don't ask for money. So please watch out. Trust yourself. Good luck.

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Jacqueline
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posted 05 July 2003 11:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jacqueline     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
An orfi marriage in luxor costs about LE 100 and a nice two bedroom flat costs about
LE 250 per week. Be careful

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ayman2
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posted 06 July 2003 05:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ayman2     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LYAKOUT:
You will never become an Egyptian citizen since you are not of Egyptian blood and neither would your children.

LYAKOUT,

i agree with what you said but I just wanted to correct one piece of information; Her children WILL become Egyptian citizens.

Ayman

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Debbie
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posted 07 July 2003 11:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Debbie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ayman2:
LYAKOUT,

i agree with what you said but I just wanted to correct one piece of information; Her children WILL become Egyptian citizens.

Ayman


Ayman, I'm pretty sure she was referring to the children of the previous marriage. I know I was thinking the same as you, but since the woman is a single mother (isn't she? or is that another string....oh it's so confusing now...so many foreign women and so many Egyptian men getting married...LOL) her children from the previous marriage would never become Egyptian citizens, I guess.

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khadijah
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posted 26 July 2003 01:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for khadijah     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I want to first thank you all for the topic. It has really answered a lot of questions for me regarding my marriage.
To the young lady who's papers cost 900L, I would say you got lied to. My papers cost 75EL, a cup of tea and a bowl of fruit cause the lawyer came to our friends home. Just be careful there sister girl.
I also have a question. I am currently trying to get a divorce back in the states and that is the reason for our Orfi. My husband is worried that we will have a baby before all the marriage paperwork is finished. He seems to think that since we only have the Orfi that puts him in jeopardy of a jail sentance. According to him the doctors at the hospital will ask for the marriage llicense and since we have none then they will call the police. I know he is a worry wart but is there any real truth to this?

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akshar
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posted 26 July 2003 04:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for akshar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Can I ask if you are converted to Islam because if you have then your position is much cleaner. I only ask because of your user name.

Apparently, and I have checked this out if a woman converts to Islam and her existing husband does not(married or seperated) she is no longer married. I think this is because whilst a man can marry a Jew or a Christian a women can only marry (or be married) to a Muslim.

I have no idea what the case is if you are a Christian, I suspect your Orfi is a bit suspect as you were not free to enter into it. People think the Orfi is not a real legal entity and they can be casual about it. It might be lesser legally than the the full blown thing but it is still a legal thing and if you (as a women) enter into multiple Orfi's you are breaking the law. Women can only marry one husband, be that marriage Orfi or other

------------------
Uk Co-owner ofwww.flatsinluxor.co.uk Accomodation and Tours in Luxor

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eserry
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posted 27 July 2003 07:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for eserry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just to clarify the legal issues. The Orfi marraige is totally legal and acceptable by the courts to prove parenthood.
The requierment for legal marraige according to shariaa law is the proposal, acceptance and the witnesses. Many marraiges in the past (before the setting up of the records system in the 1930's were conducted this way. Again if children were born as a result of the relationship and there is a dispute of parenthood, the courts will accept the Orfi marraiage.
The issue with the orfi marraige is the rights and obligations. If you go for a formal marriage, there are implied terms of the contract that gurantees the financial and other rights of each party to the contract. In the Orfi marriage, if you want to gurantee all the obligations it has to be specifically stated in the contract, otherwise it could be argued in the court.
Orfi comes from Orf which is common law. And common law is acceptable as a source upon which legal judgement could be drawn.
The other point is proving the marraige. The lawyer are requiered by law to keep a copy of the contract. So if any of the parties tears up their copy you can always go to the lawyer and get another copy. Also if the matter is raised to the court in a dispute the witnesses will be called to give statement under oath. So there is no way it could be denied.
There is just one point, which is the case of one party to the contract being a non-Egyptian. In this case there is a requierment to formaly register the marriage, this is done to ensure that both parties are clear which law applies to the contract (marriage is a civil contract). This registration could either be done by the registrar or the embassy of the foreign party.
One last point for the members who are attacking the Orfi marriage. I want to remind you the in the West (I live in the UK) there is no limit on the number of common law wifes or husbands a person could have. There is also no regulation to the sexual activity. Any one can have as many children as they like and forget that they exist. Even if you take a case to the court there is no law to force the DNA testing to prove paranthood. So in my opnion the Orfi marriage is a much better solution.
By the way, I am formally married to a German and have no other wifes and we had 3 marriage ceremonies (Egyptian, German and UK). Just in case someone thinks I have a motive in defending the Orfi marrige.

[This message has been edited by eserry (edited 27 July 2003).]

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ANNIEBRIANY
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posted 27 July 2003 10:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ANNIEBRIANY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jacqueline:
There is only one way that a non-Egyptian can get legally married to an Egyptian in Egypt and that is at the ministry of justice at Lazoughly Square in Cairo. There is a prevalent practice in Egypt, particularly Luxor, of Egyptian men taking their foreign girlfriends to a lawyers office and 'getting married'. The papers they give you will satisfy the police if you are challenged when out together in the evenings and will satisfy the landlord of any flat that you rent so that you can live together, but this is not a legal marriage.

[This message has been edited by Jacqueline (edited 01 January 2003).][/QUOTE

Hi my sister is a Dr. and she met a Pre Doc student who is an Egyptian citizen in New York and after less than 6 months of courtship he got engaged to her, he told her they must get engaged because is its unaccepatable for a eqyptian man to date a women without being engaged. Since his arrival in her life she has distance herself from her family. I have always been concerned that he just wants a visa then he will leav her or that he may already be married with children and she is unaware. I want to believe he loves her and that he is honest but since he is an Egypt citizen, if they got married here in NY would it be legal. Should we be concerned at the quickness of the engagement, he says he is a Christian. I feel something funny with this

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Adoula
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posted 28 July 2003 05:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Adoula     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dear friends,

It seems this subject is interesting to some of you, so I just wanted to say my point of view on it.

Due to the economic crisis at the present, many Egyptian males and females find it hard to get married while in their twenties.

It is common nowadays to find women and men getting married in their mid or late thirties, especially among the educated, because they aim to live according to a certain social and financial standard.

One phenomenon that has increased tremendously in recent years is orfi marriage – i.e. marriage without a declared official certificate or the knowledge of parents, and where the man and woman agree to marry and sign a paper and keep it to themselves.

Orfi marriage does not require the husband of any financial obligations to his wife, and it is based on discreteness. Free sexual relations are prohibited by both religion and social norms. Hence, many young couples who want to be together and do not have the financial means to get married properly resort to the orfi method.

They view it as a temporary solution, but in reality it causes them a lot of trouble. One among many is when the girl gets pregnant and the boy abandons her and refuses to acknowledge their marriage.

Some husbands resort to orfi marriage because it does not require them of any financial obligations.

They aim to keep it discreet because they know if their wives would find out about it, they could indeed get into trouble that might lead to divorce and financial compensation.

Extramarital relations are also common among Egyptian husbands. Many wives can live with the idea of their husbands having affairs with other women, but not with orfi marriage.

Many wives believe that most husbands get involved in extramarital relations and it is a fact of life about men in general, but orfi marriage is considered betrayal and going out of limits.

The same goes with the idea of polygamy, many educated men and women dislike the idea of polygamy and believe it was allowed by Islam only under strict conditions which makes it extremely difficult to happen.

But every rule has its exceptions. Nowadays, and due to the many difficulties of getting married and securing a good standard of life, some educated women are beginning to accept being the second or third wife than not getting married at all!

One dominant saying among wives in Egypt is: “The shadow of a man is better than the shadow of a wall.” The image of marriage gives the Egyptian wife security and prestige in a society that is still very critical of the concept of divorce or remaining single.

Among the less educated strata, however, polygamy is an acceptable practice by both males and females, but many men do not practice it simply because they cannot afford it.

What is also peculiar about the Egyptian society is that you can always find ways to enjoy yourself even if your financial means are limited.

It is very common to see couples strolling by the Nile holding hands and chatting, or groups of people sitting at the many scattered street cafés smoking the hookah (shisha) and playing games, or families taking a feluka (small boat) ride in the Nile.

Hope this clear some things.

------------------
Regards
adoula777@yahoo.com

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coloreen
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posted 28 July 2003 06:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for coloreen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ANNIEBRIANY:
Hi my sister is a Dr. and she met a Pre Doc student who is an Egyptian citizen in New York and after less than 6 months of courtship he got engaged to her, he told her they must get engaged because is its unaccepatable for a eqyptian man to date a women without being engaged. Since his arrival in her life she has distance herself from her family. I have always been concerned that he just wants a visa then he will leav her or that he may already be married with children and she is unaware. I want to believe he loves her and that he is honest but since he is an Egypt citizen, if they got married here in NY would it be legal. Should we be concerned at the quickness of the engagement, he says he is a Christian. I feel something funny with this[/B]

all I can tell you is that it is indeed common for egyptians to get engaged soon, engagement is actually what americans would call dating. depending on the social level a couple would not go out alone if not at least engaged.

wether he is christian or not I don't know, why do you doubt it? from what you told us so far about this relationship I can see nothing funny....

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ANNIEBRIANY
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posted 29 July 2003 12:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ANNIEBRIANY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by coloreen:
all I can tell you is that it is indeed common for egyptians to get engaged soon, engagement is actually what americans would call dating. depending on the social level a couple would not go out alone if not at least engaged.

wether he is christian or not I don't know, why do you doubt it? from what you told us so far about this relationship I can see nothing funny....



The reason Im apprehensive its because she has completely shut out my mom and me, her behavior is terrible, he does not have a work visa, he's just a student, no car, so she is his taxi and I am sure she gives him money and its so upsetting. He wants her to work while he comtinues school. I don't know but she sounds brainwashed and crazy when she speaks of him. I hope he does not have a wife a children, because he said he was a Dr in egypt. He manipulates her from seeing her family and she accepts it, and he says he is an orphan.

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toniinegypt
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posted 14 September 2003 12:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for toniinegypt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Girlfriends,

I'm so glad I found this forum. I don't know if I'm looking for advice, a good listener, a shoulder to laugh/cry on, or a confessional. Maybe all of the above. I think I'm just relieved to know that I'm not alone here.

I met HIM in Jan. 03. He was a waiter on one of the Nile cruise boats; I was a passenger. He tells me that he's since been promoted to dining manager (not restaurant manager yet, though that may come later when his Eglish improves). I went back to Egypt in June/July 03 for school, and he met me in Cairo, where we spent some time together, and later I visited him in Luxor on some weekends. Finished the summer trip together in Hurghada. He dropped hints all along that he wanted to marry me. Finally asked me the last few days in Hurghada.

I still can't tell if I'm the luckiest woman in the world or the most gullible. And I know only time will tell. But some insight from you ladies will help tremendously.

He's mid-30s, I'm late-40s. I've met his best friend and two of his brothers. I'm certain that one brother is legitimate because that brother works on the same Nile cruise boat and introduced himself to me on the cruise as HIS brother. Brother No. 2 looks just like Brother NO. 1, and there is a family resemblence.

When I visited HIM in Luxor, one of the first things he wanted to do was have our photo made together at a professional studio, which we did ... then he took me to what I can only call a by-the-hour f*** hotel, thought that's not exactly what we did there.

On later trips we stayed together in a rented flat. Which is also what we did in Hurghada. I paid for about two-thrids of the lodging costs. I know that Egyptians can work very hard and make very little money. And my logic was that I would have to pay to stay somewhere, whether he was along or not.

He wanted me to meet the rest of his family, have dinner with them, and he had asked his borther to make the arrangements. But it turned out that was not possible because the family lives in a town outside of Luxor where tourists do not go, and the Tourism Police needed more advance notice to arrange an escort.

When I met the best friend, the best friend told me that some other of HIS friends had advised him to marry me at the American Embassy (I'm American) in Cairo, but that HE refused to do this because such a marriage would not be legitimate in the eyes of the church (HE is Christian and so in the best friend). The best friend said that HE would rather put himself in danger than to do something like that.

However, HE did suggest that we register as friends with the Luxor Tourist Police, which I refused to do because it just sounded too weird, even for Egypt.

I've since learned that it is not possible to marry at the American Embassy, that legal marriages have to take place at some other Egyptian office in Cairo. And from what I read in your postings, it sounds like registering with the Tourist Police is not something that is possible ... that the fake marriage thing is.

I think you can fill in the blanks as to what my questions are: Does HE really love me or does he want money, American citizenship or something else I haven't even thought of?

I think HE loves me because he telephoned me regularly when I was in Egypt and since I have been back in the US. And we keep up with one another by e-mail. On the one hand, I think HE is honest and would be faithful because he is Christian. HE even made a point of saying that there were a couple of women on his ship recently who wanted to meet him, but he refused. But on the other hand, well, during the let's-get-acquainted stage, HE didn't behave that much differently towards me than the Moslem men, who I was not interested in getting to know better. In fact if HE had not been a Christian, I would never have taken an interest in him.

There are many more details I could give, pro and con. But basically, I have a lot of questions. And I don't know how I'm going to get them all answered to my satisfaction.

Anyway, here I am feeling like I'm ready to chuck it all and move to Egypt. But I think I want to do that anyway just because I love it there. I'd just like to know for sure what I'm dealing with where HE is concerned, you know?

Thanks for listening, girlfriends, and responding when you can.

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Pito
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posted 14 September 2003 12:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pito     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi toniinegypt,
You got to think about the age difference, what got him interested in you in the first place? He might be honest or he might be after a green card....This is always difficult to judge...I know why you are puzzeled, but ask your self what would happen 5 years down the road if you get married!!!

PITO

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coloreen
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posted 17 September 2003 05:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for coloreen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
well I guess you already got a picture of what MIGHT happen from reading other women's experiences on this board. no one will be able to tell you what WILL happen, plus no one here knows you or your man.

so it all depends on if you trust him or not.

if you are already considering moving to egypt anyway, then do that, but with no expectation regarding to him. once here, you will find out about the culture and egyptians and you will be able to judge the situation much more clearly than anyone could tell you through the internet.

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Debbie
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posted 18 September 2003 12:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Debbie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Toni -

Yes, you have to make the decision yourself, but I highly recommend that if you move to Egypt, you do it assuming you will support yourself for some time, and get to know this man better.

Two things happen when you do that.
#1 - You do find out that there are bijillions of other Egyptian men all wanting to meet you, and many of them are wonderful and DO NOT work in tourism, which is a really really wonderful thing.

#2 - You get to really know the man that you are fond of now. You'll find out if he is sincere or for some reason in some rush to get married. You've already slept with him so he can't use the excuse that you must be married for the sex, which is one they use and use successfully on some western women that think it's so moral and cute that he won't sleep with them until after marriage. You'll also get a better feel for if you'd really want to be married to a man that works on a cruise boat with wealthy beautiful women coming on board every week anew. You'll get a feel for if you really trust him, I think.

Living in Egypt, supporting yourself gives you all sorts of freedom to explore your new feelings, a new life and whatever else you are looking for. If you come expecting him to support you, you are walking into the fire, if you ask me. What recourse do you have at that point if it doesn't work out?

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Lisochka
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posted 25 September 2003 09:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lisochka     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I want my boyfriend to get one of these 'fake' marriage certificates from a lawyer so that when I come there in 3 weeks, we can stay together in an apartment.

How does he do it? Please give us advice!

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Phoenix
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posted 11 October 2003 03:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Phoenix     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
From a woman who has legally married an Egyptian (in May)

Yes we went to Lazoghly (did I spell it right?) plus he gave me a dowry (some jewellry and his dad gave some money to both of us, a lot perhaps by Egyptian standards but not when converted into pounds!) We had two men present as well as the lawyer at Lazoughly and before going there we went to the British consulte and got a paper from there, a declaration neither had been legally married. Initially we thought we needed papers saying there was no record of a previous marriage but found out we did not. So I know we are both clear! Our marriage is valid in both Egypt and England but visa issues are separate (marriage no guarentee to a visa for him but then again I am not British, even if I was no guarentee) and I do not know yet if it is valid in my home country but that is not a problem just yet. In my case (so far, anyway!) I struck the jackpot with this one. I think he is gorgeous and sexy plus very very good to me. But I know not all Egyptian men are as good -the same can be said for people from any country though. He says he has never heard of "orfi" but is not from Luxor anyway but from a small place an hour out of Cairo. I have met his family and stayed with him and them at his house there which despite the language barriers etc. I reccommend, I was a lot more worried perhaps he was a bad un before that although my instinct and heart knew he was good. I felt no bad vibes from them and he did not change into a bad person in his home country. I am very glad to have found that out! Plus he has lived at home till me. In fact he says one wife (me) is MORE than enough he'd NEVER want TWO!! So yes you need Lazoghley I just asked hubby now and he said you MUST have a dowry from the man (I got a wedding ring and a necklace and like I said some money) and the main man at Lazoghley Justice of the peace or whatever you said it should be made us repeat words after him, my now hubby translated some of them. Also, we paid to get a translation of our marriage certificate into English so now we have both. Not required, it was for my benefit. We have our fingerprints on it and our photos. I am telling you this so you know what you need for a GENUINE LEGALLY VALID marriage.

[This message has been edited by Phoenix (edited 11 October 2003).]

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deborah
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posted 13 October 2003 02:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for deborah     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Phoenix:
From a woman who has legally married an Egyptian (in May)

Yes we went to Lazoghly (did I spell it right?) plus he gave me a dowry (some jewellry and his dad gave some money to both of us, a lot perhaps by Egyptian standards but not when converted into pounds!) We had two men present as well as the lawyer at Lazoughly and before going there we went to the British consulte and got a paper from there, a declaration neither had been legally married. Initially we thought we needed papers saying there was no record of a previous marriage but found out we did not. So I know we are both clear! Our marriage is valid in both Egypt and England but visa issues are separate (marriage no guarentee to a visa for him but then again I am not British, even if I was no guarentee) and I do not know yet if it is valid in my home country but that is not a problem just yet. In my case (so far, anyway!) I struck the jackpot with this one. I think he is gorgeous and sexy plus very very good to me. But I know not all Egyptian men are as good -the same can be said for people from any country though. He says he has never heard of "orfi" but is not from Luxor anyway but from a small place an hour out of Cairo. I have met his family and stayed with him and them at his house there which despite the language barriers etc. I reccommend, I was a lot more worried perhaps he was a bad un before that although my instinct and heart knew he was good. I felt no bad vibes from them and he did not change into a bad person in his home country. I am very glad to have found that out! Plus he has lived at home till me. In fact he says one wife (me) is MORE than enough he'd NEVER want TWO!! So yes you need Lazoghley I just asked hubby now and he said you MUST have a dowry from the man (I got a wedding ring and a necklace and like I said some money) and the main man at Lazoghley Justice of the peace or whatever you said it should be made us repeat words after him, my now hubby translated some of them. Also, we paid to get a translation of our marriage certificate into English so now we have both. Not required, it was for my benefit. We have our fingerprints on it and our photos. I am telling you this so you know what you need for a GENUINE LEGALLY VALID marriage.

[This message has been edited by Phoenix (edited 11 October 2003).]


phoenix,

Can you remember how much it all cost, for the papers and the ceremony? Would it be okay to email you? my email address is charmed0001@aol.com

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jenprincess1
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posted 15 October 2003 06:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jenprincess1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I just want to jump in and let you all know that while Orfi marriage isn't "legally" recognized, it is recognized in all the Muslim/Arabic countries as valid marriage in front of Allah. I (American) have one with an Egyptian man, here in Kuwait. We will be "legally/properly" married when we reach Cairo, in April. That way, his family can be involved!

------------------
Jennifer

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Lady_Fox
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posted 29 November 2003 09:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lady_Fox     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
hi all,
I have some of the question about marriage rule in Egypt (Cairo).

1. Can Egyptian legally married more than one wife (including Egyptian and foreign woman)?

2. Can foreign man lived with Egyptian lady with out any paper or they still need legal of illegal marriage paper?

3 Is that easy for a foreign man lived with "Rich Egyptian lady"? Do there have much "Rich Egypt lady" there?

4. If a foreign man lived with a foreign woman, is this legal in Egypt? or still need the "paper".

5. As noted that from one of message that police will ask for seeing the paper when Egyptian guy with foreign lady at night. Will police ask the same for Egyptian lady with foreign guy? If they go a group of people, will the police ask for the same too?

6. Or just the police ask when two people seems as a lover/a pair? Will the police ask the same things from foreign guy with foreign lady?

7. As knowing there is "bad" Egyptian guy chasing foreign due to money. Then, is there any "bad" Egyptian lady chasing foreign and also for money? If yes, then will those Egyptian lady providing "illegal" marriage with foreign (business) man so as living in same place and providing wife service to him?

I really hope to make more clear about it, as my husband is need to station at there due to his job. And he only back home for 3 times in a year. Firstly, in beginning when he station there, we plan to be there and live together. But now, he got much excuse and ask me to stay home. When I ask to buy a ticket by myself to go and live in hotel, he refuse me to done in this way and ask me to wait him as he haven't settle down even for the apartment. He told me that it is difficult to find apartment in Cairo and actually I don't believe him. He also told me that if I really go, there is no place for me to live and he is trying his best to settling his job first and will make me going there ASAP. But we already talking about this from Mid-July upto now. It make me doubt on him that he must lived with lady at there. Hope to getting all your reply or comments in this cases.

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Monica
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posted 29 November 2003 10:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Monica     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 02 June 2004).]

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Lady_Fox
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posted 29 November 2003 01:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lady_Fox     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Monica,

Firstly, thanks of your viewing. Actually, I have planning to do so. But before I did it, I need to know more about the marriage culture of Egyptian and his situation too so as to planning in a perfect way. May be I don't have the need to go or see what he did and break with him or may be he is have his right point.

He telling me that he is not working too long in this Company. His boss will concern that he is not working at there just for tour with me. Therefore, he want to settle down and let his boss believe him and he promise me to bring me go there ASA he can. As I am his wife, I need to support him and trust him, right? So before I am taking the action, I need to think more carefully will this affecting his job and I need to balance everythings. It is not easy to be a wife nowadays.

Fox

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Monica
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posted 29 November 2003 02:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Monica     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 02 June 2004).]

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Debbie
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posted 30 November 2003 12:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Debbie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Lady_Fox:

My first question to you is what age range are you and your husband in, and more importantly, what kind of job does he do in Eygpt? Is he a professional? Is he 20 yrs old or 40 yrs old?

If he is a professional, with a professional job, then his employer should be very willing to accomodate him and HIS FAMILY here in Egypt. If he was brought to Egypt by this company to work for them and they hired him in a professional manner (ie: he received a decent expat employment package), I am very surprised that he wasn't given a flat by the company in an area to house his family (even if his family means YOU AND HIM only).

If you can answer some of these questions, then maybe we can give you some insight as to what might be or might not be going on.

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Lady_Fox
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posted 30 November 2003 02:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lady_Fox     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Debbie,

1. He is not Egyptian. He is Asian.
2. He is in Management Level.
3. He is my finacee and we already living together in Asia.
4. He leave all of his monthly salary for my living every month.
5. He had apartment sharing with other staff.
6. He want to find a better apartment (middle level) but costing at lower price. He don't want to share with other people and can keeping his personal private. As he like to get more shower in hot days. If the house was sharing with others, he feel it is not fair to others roomate to share the expenses.
7. I find a room at Mohandissen, but he tell me it is not much of Street Light in Mohandissen at night, is that truth? He say it is a poor area and he say that I'll not accept the room. He also tell me that from Mohandissen to Dokki (19 Kampeez Street) need 40 mins by walk, is this also true? Or just he don't want me to go?

Fox

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Lady_Fox
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posted 30 November 2003 02:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lady_Fox     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Debbie,

Sorry that I haven't telling you the following:-

1. He is 40s+ of age and I am 30s+.
2. He tell me that he already mentioned to his boss he has a finacee and will settle down with me in Egypt. However, his boss need him to prove that he can actually take up the job to their satisfaction so that they will feel comfortable to keep him here and give another employment package to his family.
(Why need this proving due to somethings was happened on the work which "NOT" occured by him but by his staff. As he is management level, he have the responsbility of everythings occured by his staff who made a big problem for him and the boss need him to solve it first so as to prove that he is suitable for this job.)
That is totally what he is telling to me.

Besides, is it there are much Chinese Ladies in Cairo? Which district got much more of Chinese Ladies? My finacee say that it is difficult to see any Chinese in Cairo especially in Dokki, is it true or just he lie to me again?

Fox

[This message has been edited by Lady_Fox (edited 30 November 2003).]

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