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Author	Topic: Church Play Against Islam?
misfit Member Posts: 505 Registered: Sep 2005	posted 23 October 2005 12:29 PM quote: Originally posted by Automatic For The People: That was not only racist but quite stupid. Your crap always stink of ignorance and fanaticism. when you learn some manners, and when you learn how to engage in respectable conversations and are able to use reason like a civilized human being without attacking or insulting your opponents, then i would be able to give you my reply. IP: Logged
Serendipity Member Posts: 1478 Registered: Apr 2005	posted 23 October 2005 12:33 PM awww theres sooo much love in this room IP: Logged
Snoozin Member Posts: 2339 Registered: Dec 2004	posted 23 October 2005 12:54 PM quote: Originally posted by misfit: i really wish this was the case, i would have felt much better if had the option to choose. and as for you if you were not a muslim and you've converted then it was really your choice, but if you were born in islam then you didn't really make a choice and if you don't like it then you are an apostate and your only option would be to get killed, i'm surprised you don't know that! Misfit, do you really think if you were non-practicing that someone is going to kill you? Secondly, you could claim insanity, right? You may think I'm a jerk or pick on you or whatever, but I'd honestly rather just see you happy, whatever religious designation you choose. IP: Logged
Snoozin Member Posts: 2339 Registered: Dec 2004	posted 23 October 2005 01:08 PM quote: Originally posted by misfit: when i'm looking for an explanation to the phenomenon of the undeniable wide spread fanaticism practiced by muslims all over the world it doesn't mean that i'm paint brushing ALL muslims as fanatics or terrorists, but yes, a great percentage of them are and this percentage is unprecedented in any other religion followers, how can you deny that? I would argue that violent Hindu fanatics possibly outnumber violent Islamists. I don't know this for sure, but I do know that Hindu violence against Muslims is very underreported in the West. Hindu extremists killed up to 2,000 Muslims in 2002 after a train burning by Muslims. (Not saying Muslims are 100% innocent, just saying Islam doesn't hold the monopoly on terrorism). In 1984, Hindi fanatics slaughtered almost 60,000 Sihks after Ghandi was assassinated. And the government permitted it to occur. I would also venture to say, again I'm not sure, that many people in the Middle East look down on Indians and don't really pay attention to what's happening on the Indian subcontinent either. ??? To me, religious fundamentalism comes from fear of a new modern age. Religious violence is the backlash that comes from years and years of religious and political oppression. Islam isn't monopolizing either of these. [This message has been edited by Snoozin (edited 23 October 2005).] IP: Logged
misfit Member Posts: 505 Registered: Sep 2005	posted 23 October 2005 01:43 PM quote: Originally posted by Snoozin: Misfit, do you really think if you were non-practicing that someone is going to kill you? Secondly, you could claim insanity, right? You may think I'm a jerk or pick on you or whatever, but I'd honestly rather just see you happy, whatever religious designation you choose. you are a nice and honest person snoozin, but don't judge the ideology by your own idealistic interpretation of it. it's not a question of practicing, you are too smart to say something like that..now i have read so many other religions and non have convinced me so far, but what if i ever find a faith that really convinces me and which helps me to rest my worried soul just like what happened to you with islam? will i be able to embrace that as my religion like you were able to embrace islam? i say the strong idea doesn't enforce itself on people by law, doesn't threaten them to follow it or get killed.. that is called oppression or is there another definition for it? and regarding non practice; abandoning prayer is kofr, the punishment of kofr is murder. IP: Logged
misfit Member Posts: 505 Registered: Sep 2005	posted 23 October 2005 01:56 PM quote: Originally posted by Snoozin: Hindu extremists killed up to 2,000 Muslims in 2002 after a train burning by Muslims. (Not saying Muslims are 100% innocent, just saying Islam doesn't hold the monopoly on terrorism). In 1984, Hindi fanatics slaughtered almost 60,000 Sihks after Ghandi was assassinated. And the government permitted it to occur. i'll assume both incidents were true and also in terms of magnitude, but then how many more incidents of hindu violence be it in india or world wide can you remember? it's true terrorism, extremism, fanaticism and ignorance are not monopolized by muslims but when it comes to all of them combined together, muslims surely rock! IP: Logged
Snoozin Member Posts: 2339 Registered: Dec 2004	posted 23 October 2005 02:18 PM quote: Originally posted by misfit: it's not a question of practicing, you are too smart to say something like that..now i have read so many other religions and non have convinced me so far, but what if i ever find a faith that really convinces me and which helps me to rest my worried soul just like what happened to you with islam? . My worried soul as you so accurately describe it is not rested by my Islam, I am discovering. It does not make me think there is any fault to be had with Islam itself, rather I find the issue is -- this is just how I am. Religion does not seem to be the great comfort I seek since I find so many others finding great solace in it. But I realize I grew up in a very different culture than you. In (blue state) America people don't turn to religion for solace, but rather to buying the latest greatest new car, or to finding their true love in their soul-mate of the month. That's what I grew up with. Religion was marginal at best. quote: Originally posted by misfit: and regarding non practice; abandoning prayer is kofr, the punishment of kofr is murder. I understand that. Here where I live, the punishment for a man spitting on the street is 30 days in jail. Doesn't mean there are any spitters in jail these days. All I mean by this is, aren't you living in a Western country right now? IP: Logged
Snoozin Member Posts: 2339 Registered: Dec 2004	posted 23 October 2005 02:32 PM quote: Originally posted by misfit: i'll assume both incidents were true and also in terms of magnitude, but then how many more incidents of hindu violence be it in india or world wide can you remember? it's true terrorism, extremism, fanaticism and ignorance are not monopolized by muslims but when it comes to all of them combined together, muslims surely rock! These statistics are true to the extent that's what I remember and what I could find in published reports. I of course wasn't there. But I have had a great personal affinity and interest in India and its culture and have followed it for years. But yes, I do think Hindu terrorists probably outnumber Muslim terrorists in terms of the number of people injured or killed due to religious violence. And I just find the entire caste system and untouchables so unbearably depressing.... you look too hard and all religions can be awful. I can cite a large number of incidents for you, but I didn't want to clog up the thread. That being said, I can understand why Islamic extremism bothers you personally, since you grew up in a Muslim culture. And I can understand why you would personally want to change the things you find wrong about it all. And more power to you. I'm surrounded now by a good many Christian fundamentalists who cling to doctrine I've never even heard of. I have no idea how to get them to soften their stance against unbelievers, or how to keep them from inserting all their religious dogma into our current political and governmental system -- all despite our Contitutional RIGHT to separation of church and state. Drives me crazy. There are only so many battles each of us can personally choose. IP: Logged
kafir4 ever Member Posts: 597 Registered: Aug 2005	posted 23 October 2005 03:36 PM quote: Originally posted by misfit: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Automatic For The People: [b] That was not only racist but quite stupid. Your crap always stink of ignorance and fanaticism. when you learn some manners, and when you learn how to engage in respectable conversations and are able to use reason like a civilized human being without attacking or insulting your opponents, then i would be able to give you my reply. [/B][/QUOTE] In what ways are misfit's posts fanatical? Does he advocate killing people? Is he encouraging people to raid innocent people massacre the men, enslave the women and children? In what ways is he ignorant? You are defending Islam at all costs but that is not necessarily in the interest of your country. With Islam Egypt will never see progress. Islam is ruining your intellect. It is teaching you distorted values. It is the very cause of your enslavement. It converts you into zombies. Look at the Muslims in Islamic countries. Look at them when they pour into the streets shouting death to this and death to that. They are not people. They are mobsters. They act with hysteria. And yet they are your people. They are your brothers, cousins, second cousins, friends and relatives. Misfit is fighting for them, for their freedom from the bondage of ignorance, bigotry and fanaticism. He is fighting for their temporal Interest, for their enlightenment, for their freedom. He wants to see his people free, prosper and to contribute positively to the world. IP: Logged
misfit Member Posts: 505 Registered: Sep 2005	posted 23 October 2005 03:48 PM quote: Originally posted by Snoozin: how to keep them from inserting all their religious dogma into our current political and governmental system -- all despite our Contitutional RIGHT to separation of church and state. the western world has already evolved from the dark ages and gone through the renaissance and learned about building democracy and separation of state and church. this happened because most of the people came to the rational conclusion that they shouldn't take christianity (or religious dogmas in general) seriously, apart from those few religious fanatics that people make fun of (such as mormons and jehova's witness) most people only consider religion a seasoning flavour of their lives. unfortunately, muslims are yet to face their darkest ages ie. the ultimate power of the "church" and the oppression of the clergy (taliban/iran style and worse). it's impossible at this stage to reach separation between state and church in islam and actually what most neomuslims are dreaming of nowadays is the realization of the theocratic state which rules by sharia, they want to do so to get rid of people like me who are thought to be enemies of islam, not realizing how how ugly their lives are gonna be if they started living like saudi's or taliban. at some point i thought there is a way out for muslims in which they can reach some sort of compromise between their religion and their natural aspirations for a modern life, i thought islam can be contained by taming it to conform to people's normal and modern way of life ie, democracy, arts, diversity, relationships, women rights, etc. but we learn more and more everyday how untamable islam is, rather than adapting to the people's general mood; people should conform to the same islamic dogma that was 1500 years ago. islam as presented to people who found it natural that a 54 year old man marries a 6 year old child - as some have claimed here - is said to be valid for everytime and place. islam is non reformable and has to be accepted as is and every trial to reform it by some idealistic purist gets brutally attacked as heretic since it inevitably condemns it's guilty past. there is no constitutional or individual rights in islam, islam is the only constitution that people are supposed to live by and those who don't like it can anly go to hell, on earth and in the afterlife. [This message has been edited by misfit (edited 23 October 2005).] IP: Logged
Nooralhaq2005 Member Posts: 176 Registered: May 2005	posted 23 October 2005 08:23 PM quote: Originally posted by Snoozin: Egyptians protest, say church play against Islam Reuters -- 59 minutes ago Three demonstrators were killed when thousands of people protested on Friday near a church in the Egyptian city of Alexandria over the staging of a play they said was offensive to Islam, security sources said. The demonstrators were killed during clashes between police and the more than 5,000-strong crowd which had gathered near St. George's Coptic church in the Mediterranean port city after Muslim prayers, the sources said. Police used teargas to try to disperse the crowd, which had pelted police with stones and which regrouped on several occasions after prayer times through the day and evening, the sources said. They said protests continued late into the night. Police formed a cordon to prevent the crowd approaching St. George's church, prompting some of the demonstrators to try to storm another church nearby, the sources said, adding that dozens of police and protesters were injured in the clashes. Coptic Bishop Armia denied accusations the play insulted Islam, Egypt's official MENA news agency reported, as monitored by the BBC. "Copts would never tolerate anyone insulting Islam," Bishop Armia was quoted as saying. He did not give details about the play or what it was about. Coptic officials could not be independently reached for comment. Copts make up about 5 percent to 10 percent of Egypt's mainly Muslim population of 72 million people. The Interior Ministry had earlier said in a statement that one demonstrator had died in the crush and 20 police and 25 demonstrators had been injured. The statement said 35 people had been detained. The statement also said protesters also torched a police vehicle and a private vehicle and several shops in the area. It was the second mass protest over the play in the past week and came two days after a young man stabbed a nun and a man. Their injuries were not serious and the attacker was arrested, the security sources said. Relations between the two communities are generally peaceful but tensions sometimes flare. In 1999, 22 people were killed in sectarian strife in the southern village of Kosheh but such incidents are rare and are usually sparked by local disputes. Very sad story Suz, I truly hate to hear about conflict and especially religious conflict. IP: Logged
Tiger,Tiger Member Posts: 192 Registered: Oct 2005	posted 23 October 2005 09:16 PM quote: Originally posted by Serendipity: awww theres sooo much love in this room LOL We owe it to Snooze. IP: Logged
Automatic For The People Member Posts: 140 Registered: Apr 2005	posted 23 October 2005 10:23 PM quote: Originally posted by misfit: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Automatic For The People: [b] That was not only racist but quite stupid. Your crap always stink of ignorance and fanaticism. when you learn some manners, and when you learn how to engage in respectable conversations and are able to use reason like a civilized human being without attacking or insulting your opponents, then i would be able to give you my reply. [/B][/QUOTE] Racist morons can only be described and addressed as such. You don't have a reply, you're as supid as kafir and horemheb. IP: Logged
misfit Member Posts: 505 Registered: Sep 2005	posted 24 October 2005 12:32 AM quote: Originally posted by Automatic For The People: Racist morons can only be described and addressed as such. You don't have a reply, you're as supid as kafir and horemheb. you know what? the easiest thing for me to do would be to insult you back and call you names, but then any spectator would think we were just a couple of idiots fighting, i prefer to leave it to the conscience of honest readers to tell who is the stupid moron who's got nothing to say except personal attack and insults. so go ahead, i'm not a little bit bothered by your insults as it only shows a glimpse of your mentality. IP: Logged
bibo1978 Junior Member Posts: 18 Registered: Oct 2005	posted 24 October 2005 02:56 AM quote: Originally posted by misfit: you know what? the easiest thing for me to do would be to insult you back and call you names, but then any spectator would think we were just a couple of idiots fighting, i prefer to leave it to the conscience of honest readers to tell who is the stupid moron who's got nothing to say except personal attack and insults. so go ahead, i'm not a little bit bothered by your insults as it only shows a glimpse of your mentality. Misfit if wanna convert just go ahead what stands between you and conversion!!! Anyhow you claimed that islam is full of violance, I guess you need to read a bit of history, I dunno if you ever heard of the spanish inquisition which killed more than 1 million muslim (this was like 1% of all humain race at that age), this happened after making a treaty that all muslims will be left for there religion believeth in peace in spain, and before that in spain muslims ruled and they had never killed any spanish christian citizens except for wars. as with Mohamed (PBUH) did you know that in all the wars that he had fight only 500 man were killed over all these wars, do u know that in badr only 70 of the disbileavers were killed, do u know that he himself had never killed any man, so please do not talk about islam as you know anything about cause sure u don't. If you wanna convert then go ahead its your choice why r u still muslim!!!! you say that you pray infront of muslims because you r afriad. what holds you to do so, I don't have exact numbers but I know tons of muslims that don't pray, there are muslims that even don't fast, this is valid for most of religions nowadays. I am sure you are not muslim at all IP: Logged
Humanized Member Posts: 340 Registered: Jul 2005	posted 24 October 2005 05:45 AM quote: Originally posted by misfit: you know what? the easiest thing for me to do would be to insult you back and call you names, but then any spectator would think we were just a couple of idiots fighting, i prefer to leave it to the conscience of honest readers to tell who is the stupid moron who's got nothing to say except personal attack and insults. so go ahead, i'm not a little bit bothered by your insults as it only shows a glimpse of your mentality. Misfit , you seem to be eductaed and intelligent enough to know and decide what is the best for you. you have your own opinion about many things and anyone who is posting. and your replies are smart enough to show how smart you are. so why do you try to suck everyone's sympathy because you are one doomed Muslim? and claiming that it wasnt your choice to be a muslim. if you dont believe in islam then why you claim to be a muslim. islam is not just in ID as you know. why being hypocrite?and in the same time you hide behind logic and common sense as usual? BTW , i guess i know who you are. and i used to respect your other nick , at least you were honest and not fake. IP: Logged
Morgan Member Posts: 899 Registered: Feb 2005	posted 24 October 2005 08:55 AM quote: Originally posted by bibo1978: Misfit if wanna convert just go ahead what stands between you and conversion!!! Anyhow you claimed that islam is full of violance, I guess you need to read a bit of history, I dunno if you ever heard of the spanish inquisition which killed more than 1 million muslim (this was like 1% of all humain race at that age), this happened after making a treaty that all muslims will be left for there religion believeth in peace in spain, and before that in spain muslims ruled and they had never killed any spanish christian citizens except for wars. as with Mohamed (PBUH) did you know that in all the wars that he had fight only 500 man were killed over all these wars, do u know that in badr only 70 of the disbileavers were killed, do u know that he himself had never killed any man, so please do not talk about islam as you know anything about cause sure u don't. If you wanna convert then go ahead its your choice why r u still muslim!!!! you say that you pray infront of muslims because you r afriad. what holds you to do so, I don't have exact numbers but I know tons of muslims that don't pray, there are muslims that even don't fast, this is valid for most of religions nowadays. I am sure you are not muslim at all LIAR !!! IP: Logged
Automatic For The People Member Posts: 140 Registered: Apr 2005	posted 24 October 2005 11:58 AM quote: Originally posted by misfit: you know what? the easiest thing for me to do would be to insult you back and call you names, but then any spectator would think we were just a couple of idiots fighting, i prefer to leave it to the conscience of honest readers to tell who is the stupid moron who's got nothing to say except personal attack and insults. so go ahead, i'm not a little bit bothered by your insults as it only shows a glimpse of your mentality. I'm not making anything up, you stated: Muslims = fanatics You = Muslim We can conclude from the above that: You = Fanatic Unless you think you are the exception and that would make you even more stupid. All the crap you've been writing is a way to prove to yourself that you are better than the rest. They are the ones to blame. You are not in any way knowledgeable enough to address the issues all you are capable of is rhetoric. IP: Logged
kafir4 ever Member Posts: 597 Registered: Aug 2005	posted 24 October 2005 12:11 PM - [This message has been edited by kafir4 ever (edited 24 October 2005).] IP: Logged
Dalia Member Posts: 1220 Registered: Aug 2002	posted 24 October 2005 12:19 PM quote: Originally posted by Automatic For The People: [b]Muslims = fanatics You = Muslim We can conclude from the above that: You = Fanatic [/B] Gotta love that logic. IP: Logged
misfit Member Posts: 505 Registered: Sep 2005	posted 24 October 2005 01:32 PM quote: Originally posted by Humanized: and claiming that it wasnt your choice to be a muslim. if you dont believe in islam then why you claim to be a muslim. islam is not just in ID as you know. why being hypocrite?and in the same time you hide behind logic and common sense as usual? you seem like a reasonable and smart enough guy too humanized so let's use some logic here please. Q1. if i did not choose to convert to islam and was only a muslim by birth then how can it be a matter of choice? Q2. if i happen not to believe in islam and i want out, and i happen to have found my true faith in the religion of say rastafarianism (as smelly as they are), what can i do? Q3. can you simply convert from islam to any other religion as you can convert from any other religion to islam? Q4. aren't you condemned to death if you did convert or am i just immagining things? for your knowledge, i do not want to convert to anything, once because i didn't find any other faith really worthy of converting to and second because really don't mind being a muslim but i need answers to my questions in order for my soul to rest, no one could provide those answers so far but i'm waiting. for your knowledge and i'm only telling this to you humanized because you didn't resort to stupid insults like many others, i'm not a disbeliever, i'm an agnostic..this means i'm unable to believe because i'm not fully convinced, i'm aslo a spiritual agnostic which means i'm closer to believing there is a god and would love to believe that islam is truely the right path but i can not force myself to be convinced just to please anyone and i doubt that this makes me a hypocrite as you say quote: BTW , i guess i know who you are. and i used to respect your other nick , at least you were honest and not fake. i shall not argue with you since it is pointless to argue with someone who has a predetermined idea, just out of curiosity i really wish to know who this person is. thank you IP: Logged
Sam on line Member Posts: 293 Registered: Jul 2005	posted 24 October 2005 02:09 PM BTW , i guess i know who you are. and i used to respect your other nick , at least you were honest and not fake.[/B][/QUOTE] It is dam clear , you are right IP: Logged
Automatic For The People Member Posts: 140 Registered: Apr 2005	posted 24 October 2005 11:09 PM quote: Originally posted by Dalia: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Automatic For The People: [b] [b]Muslims = fanatics You = Muslim We can conclude from the above that: You = Fanatic [/B] Gotta love that logic. [/B][/QUOTE] i have more inza trrunk IP: Logged
Humanized Member Posts: 340 Registered: Jul 2005	posted 25 October 2005 01:49 PM quote: Originally posted by misfit: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Humanized: [b] and claiming that it wasnt your choice to be a muslim. if you dont believe in islam then why you claim to be a muslim. islam is not just in ID as you know. why being hypocrite?and in the same time you hide behind logic and common sense as usual? you seem like a reasonable and smart enough guy too humanized so let's use some logic here please. Q1. if i did not choose to convert to islam and was only a muslim by birth then how can it be a matter of choice? Q2. if i happen not to believe in islam and i want out, and i happen to have found my true faith in the religion of say rastafarianism (as smelly as they are), what can i do? Q3. can you simply convert from islam to any other religion as you can convert from any other religion to islam? Q4. aren't you condemned to death if you did convert or am i just immagining things? for your knowledge, i do not want to convert to anything, once because i didn't find any other faith really worthy of converting to and second because really don't mind being a muslim but i need answers to my questions in order for my soul to rest, no one could provide those answers so far but i'm waiting. for your knowledge and i'm only telling this to you humanized because you didn't resort to stupid insults like many others, i'm not a disbeliever, i'm an agnostic..this means i'm unable to believe because i'm not fully convinced, i'm aslo a spiritual agnostic which means i'm closer to believing there is a god and would love to believe that islam is truely the right path but i can not force myself to be convinced just to please anyone and i doubt that this makes me a hypocrite as you say quote: BTW , i guess i know who you are. and i used to respect your other nick , at least you were honest and not fake. i shall not argue with you since it is pointless to argue with someone who has a predetermined idea, just out of curiosity i really wish to know who this person is. thank you [/B][/QUOTE] sorry misfit for being late i can answer your question - and if you want me to ask a Sheikh for Fatwa , i could do it for you. but first we need to agree on a common sense. because im sure neither of us wants to waste his time. you said you are agnostic!! so its better to answer this question first. - do you believe in God? i mean is there a God or there is no God? IP: Logged
misfit Member Posts: 505 Registered: Sep 2005	posted 26 October 2005 05:02 PM quote: Originally posted by Humanized: sorry misfit for being late i can answer your question - and if you want me to ask a Sheikh for Fatwa , i could do it for you. but first we need to agree on a common sense. because im sure neither of us wants to waste his time. you said you are agnostic!! so its better to answer this question first. - do you believe in God? i mean is there a God or there is no God? sorry for being late too, i only knew about the transfer of the thread and other threads to here now. it's great that you want to stick to common sense..i doubt that we'll find that with the sheikh but we can try, yet before we go for the sheikh for fatwa, i'd like to know your opinion about the questions that i have posted, above and else where, you don't have to have all your thoughts always dictated by some sheikh, you have a mind of your own don't you, and you can formulate some sort of an individual opinion, i'd like to know about it. regarding the question of god, being agnostic means admitting we lack the tools to prove neither the existance nor the non-existance of god, yet i'm more inclined to thinking that god actually exists, it doesn't mean that i have to buy the religious myth and dogma.. if i believe in evolution and abiogenesis it doesn't necessarily mean i do not believe in god, it could very well be that abiogenesis was god's way to creat life, and evolution was god's way to propagate it. i do not claim islam is wrong, i just can not ignore certain facts and the only answer i get all the time is not convincive: you must not argue is not convincive..if god did not want us to argue god would not have created us with such intricate brains to search and discover and god would not have planned for us to evolute. maybe god provided us with such brains to find god. (sorry but i don't use he or him to refer to god). IP: Logged
Humanized Member Posts: 340 Registered: Jul 2005	posted 26 October 2005 05:36 PM quote: Originally posted by misfit: it's great that you want to stick to common sense..i doubt that we'll find that with the sheikh but we can try, yet before we go for the sheikh for fatwa, i'd like to know your opinion about the questions that i have posted, above and else where, you don't have to have all your thoughts always dictated by some sheikh, you have a mind of your own don't you, and you can formulate some sort of an individual opinion, i'd like to know about it. I mentioned "Shiekh/Fatwa" - because i already have my own "Opnion" - which is not necessarily to be the whole truth and to avoid another question that i should prove my opinion. i know some about Egyptian law but i still have my lawyer. and i know about medicine but i still visit my doctor. I'm working in IT and my clients call me a professional and yet im still learning and i go back to more experienced professionals when i face a new problem. Shiekh is only a dedicated person to study and learn who is trying to represent Figh in a more convenient way...easier for people like you and me to understand in their daily life. he is just a man with a mind more or less like you and me. Regarding your questions , i guess my opinion wouldnt make much difference compared to the truth you will accept , but i dont mind answering. only after we agree on a standard logic - a common sense that we both can accept. quote: regarding the question of god, being agnostic means admitting [b]we lack the tools to prove neither the existance nor the non-existance of god, yet i'm more inclined to thinking that god actually exists, it doesn't mean that i have to buy the religious myth and dogma.. [/B] do i take it that you believe in God - you admit there is a God or not? I hope you can answer this question so we can continue. (religion is not our issue Misfit - and i prefer to get religions out of our discussion - even Fatwas and Sheikhs as long as we have different opinions about them) [This message has been edited by Humanized (edited 26 October 2005).] IP: Logged
misfit Member Posts: 505 Registered: Sep 2005	posted 27 October 2005 01:43 PM humanized, the latter part of your post is a bit vague so i'll only deal with the first part.. the role of sheikh as far as i'm concerned is to tell the religious stories and explain them to us to the best of his knowledge, the role of the mind is to weigh the story as well as the explanation in a logical and "common sensual" manner and tell us whether we buy it or not! but that's not the common held religious opinion stating you have to accept things as they are..WITHOUT QUESTIONING OR USING YOUR MIND! finally, there is the role of the heart..which although being greatly subjective yet can not be denied or ignored.. some people would believe by their hearts, and that i find quite alright..those people who do, are not threatened by a million attacks on their faith and they don't even get annoyed by it.. i believe islam would benefit more from criticism than from nervous defendants who curse and swear, and threaten their opponents to shut them up by force because the latters just give the impression that they are weak in their islamic conviction! IP: Logged
Humanized Member Posts: 340 Registered: Jul 2005	posted 27 October 2005 01:58 PM quote: Originally posted by misfit: humanized, the latter part of your post is a bit vague so i'll only deal with the first part.. the role of sheikh as far as i'm concerned is to tell the religious stories and explain them to us to the best of his knowledge, the role of the mind is to weigh the story as well as the explanation in a logical and "common sensual" manner and tell us whether we buy it or not! but that's not the common held religious opinion stating you have to accept things as they are..WITHOUT QUESTIONING OR USING YOUR MIND! finally, there is the role of the heart..which although being greatly subjective yet can not be denied or ignored.. some people would believe by their hearts, and that i find quite alright..those people who do, are not threatened by a million attacks on their faith and they don't even get annoyed by it.. i believe islam would benefit more from criticism than from nervous defendants who curse and swear, and threaten their opponents to shut them up by force because the latters just give the impression that they are weak in their islamic conviction! ----------------------------------------- do i take it that you believe in God - you admit there is a God or not? I hope you can answer this question so we can continue. misift , will you answer the question? if you dont believe in God then there is no need to talk about Islam ; it's not a comic book that we need to exchange our opinions about it! IP: Logged
Nooralhaq20055 Member Posts: 616 Registered: Oct 2005	posted 27 October 2005 02:01 PM LOOK, HUMANIZED, MISFIT!!! We're all tired of your constant arguing, now can't you both see, that YOU'RE IN LOVE WITH EACH OTHER???? Now, stop denying it!!!!! IP: Logged
Humanized Member Posts: 340 Registered: Jul 2005	posted 27 October 2005 02:03 PM quote: Originally posted by Nooralhaq20055: LOOK, HUMANIZED, MISFIT!!! We're all tired of your constant arguing, now can't you both see, that YOU'RE IN LOVE WITH EACH OTHER???? Now, stop denying it!!!!! IP: Logged
crazylobo Member Posts: 326 Registered: Sep 2004	posted 27 October 2005 03:04 PM quote: Originally posted by Nooralhaq20055: LOOK, HUMANIZED, MISFIT!!! We're all tired of your constant arguing, now can't you both see, that YOU'RE IN LOVE WITH EACH OTHER???? Now, stop denying it!!!!! damn they need to get a hotel room ... and get rid of their sexual tension and have some loving IP: Logged
Nooralhaq20055 Member Posts: 616 Registered: Oct 2005	posted 27 October 2005 03:09 PM No kidding, I can sense the intellectual flirting going on day after day, I'll bet they put they put on perfume & cologne each day before turning on their pc's [This message has been edited by Nooralhaq20055 (edited 27 October 2005).] IP: Logged
misfit Member Posts: 505 Registered: Sep 2005	posted 27 October 2005 03:37 PM quote: Originally posted by Humanized: answer the question i don't know what you're getting at! i already answered your question: quote: originally posted by misfityet i'm more inclined to thinking that god actually exists, it doesn't mean that i have to buy the religious myth and dogma and to put it in clearer words, i believe that god most probably exists but i'm skeptic about many aspects in islam, so where do we go from here? and noor, whether humanized was a male or female; what you're suggesting is totally unislamic.. IP: Logged
misfit Member Posts: 505 Registered: Sep 2005	posted 27 October 2005 03:41 PM quote: Originally posted by Nooralhaq20055: LOOK, HUMANIZED, MISFIT!!! We're all tired of your constant arguing well, at least we are not cursing and insulting each other so far. i hope we can sustain that. IP: Logged
Humanized Member Posts: 340 Registered: Jul 2005	posted 27 October 2005 06:37 PM quote: Originally posted by misfit: i believe that god most probably exists prove it! you have logic , common sense , Torah , bible or quran....or any other reason you like. IP: Logged
Humanized Member Posts: 340 Registered: Jul 2005	posted 27 October 2005 06:40 PM quote: Originally posted by Nooralhaq20055: No kidding, I can sense the intellectual flirting going on day after day, I'll bet they put they put on perfume & cologne each day before turning on their pc's [This message has been edited by Nooralhaq20055 (edited 27 October 2005).] btw Noor , your guess is wrong about misfit IP: Logged
misfit Member Posts: 505 Registered: Sep 2005	posted 28 October 2005 04:43 PM quote: Originally posted by Humanized: prove it! you have logic , common sense , Torah , bible or quran....or any other reason you like. prove what? why do i need to prove anything to anyone when i'm only saying "most probably", does this seem like i have anything proven at all? the whole idea about agnosticism is that you perceive and admit that neither science nor available religions and ideologies is able to prove or disprove the existance or no-existance of god alike.. my inner belief in the existance of god does not originate from any holy book be it torah, qoran or whatever, it most probably comes from the realization that when i look for answers to my troubles and when i need help, i turn my head and look to the sky.. it could very well be that man created god (the idea of god) not the other way round because he needed something to worship and turn to for help in times of trouble, but as long as i'm still doing that ie, look to the sky and pray for help, i'd still think that there is probably a god up there. this has nothing to do with islam, judaism, christianity or any other faith. so if i was born a muslim, i don't see why i couldn't have allah as that god. except that there are things that i don't find convincing about islam, and i can not force myself to be convinced either just to stay on the islamic train. in the past, the distorted image of islam was the enforcement of higab and niqab, FGM, the takfeer, the rejection of modernism and civilization, the harshness of 7udoud, the ignorance of most muslims all over the world, the multitude of non logical hadith etc, and they were always dismissed as being non purly islamic practices, but when islam was brought to the spot light after all the terror that was associated with it, i started searching for reasons for this bizarre phenomenon and i was surprised that the life of the prophet was not exactly what was presented to us at school, there is a much darker side to it than what we've been fed, i'm not sure i like that image as i used to like his prior immaculate image! other details in islam i started to find out about later and this also made me more skeptic. the things i'm talking about are the same things i'm bringing up in my posts and the more insults, naiive accusations and illogical answers i get, the further back i turn from being convinced that my idea about islam was wrong. i hope i made myself clear. IP: Logged
Humanized Member Posts: 340 Registered: Jul 2005	posted 28 October 2005 05:24 PM quote: Originally posted by misfit: i believe that god most probably exists the whole idea about agnosticism is that you perceive and admit that neither science nor available religions and ideologies is able to prove or disprove the existance or no-existance of god alike.. when you believe in something then you should have reasons. But if you can't make up your mind about the most important and the only fact in your life then you wont be able to believe in anything else. you want to feel god and pray for god..... but you didnt even care about the message God sent to us. you dont want to try or think about any of the messages ; not even analyze them with your mind , but instead you are critisizing those who tried. [This message has been edited by Humanized (edited 28 October 2005).] IP: Logged

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