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Snoozin Member Posts: 2339 |
posted 21 October 2005 09:07 PM
  
Egyptians protest, say church play against Islam Reuters -- 59 minutes ago
The demonstrators were killed during clashes between police and the more than 5,000-strong crowd which had gathered near St. George's Coptic church in the Mediterranean port city after Muslim prayers, the sources said. Police used teargas to try to disperse the crowd, which had pelted police with stones and which regrouped on several occasions after prayer times through the day and evening, the sources said. They said protests continued late into the night. Police formed a cordon to prevent the crowd approaching St. George's church, prompting some of the demonstrators to try to storm another church nearby, the sources said, adding that dozens of police and protesters were injured in the clashes. Coptic Bishop Armia denied accusations the play insulted Islam, Egypt's official MENA news agency reported, as monitored by the BBC. "Copts would never tolerate anyone insulting Islam," Bishop Armia was quoted as saying. He did not give details about the play or what it was about. Coptic officials could not be independently reached for comment. Copts make up about 5 percent to 10 percent of Egypt's mainly Muslim population of 72 million people. The Interior Ministry had earlier said in a statement that one demonstrator had died in the crush and 20 police and 25 demonstrators had been injured. The statement said 35 people had been detained. The statement also said protesters also torched a police vehicle and a private vehicle and several shops in the area. It was the second mass protest over the play in the past week and came two days after a young man stabbed a nun and a man. Their injuries were not serious and the attacker was arrested, the security sources said. Relations between the two communities are generally peaceful but tensions sometimes flare. In 1999, 22 people were killed in sectarian strife in the southern village of Kosheh but such incidents are rare and are usually sparked by local disputes. IP: Logged |
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TAREK307 Member Posts: 147 |
posted 21 October 2005 09:44 PM
Great, More cowardly displays by fanatics...and in ramadan too, shame on them! giving islam a bad name...why is our religion(islam) breeding so many fanatical morons? it must be the culture because islam teaches peace! IP: Logged |
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Tiger,Tiger Member Posts: 192 |
posted 21 October 2005 10:03 PM
quote: I bet that none of the protesters saw the play or did know anything about it ...someone wrote or said that there is a play against islam and every idiot has risen from the dead to defend Islam against very peaceful Coptics who insulting islam is the last thing on their minds... IP: Logged |
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Tiger,Tiger Member Posts: 192 |
posted 21 October 2005 10:07 PM
quote: http://www.ahram.org.eg/Index.asp?CurFN=fron4.htm&DID=8647 IP: Logged |
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Tiger,Tiger Member Posts: 192 |
posted 21 October 2005 10:11 PM
quote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4366232.stm IP: Logged |
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Tiger,Tiger Member Posts: 192 |
posted 21 October 2005 10:14 PM
quote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4366232.stm [/B][/QUOTE] http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/22/international/africa/22egypt.html IP: Logged |
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Snoozin Member Posts: 2339 |
posted 21 October 2005 10:16 PM
quote: Thank you for being so *evolved.* IP: Logged |
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Tiger,Tiger Member Posts: 192 |
posted 21 October 2005 10:33 PM
quote: I do not think that I deserve "Thank you" but Living in USA had tought me a lot...and seriously I owe it to America where I learnt about diversity. IP: Logged |
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misfit Member Posts: 505 |
posted 21 October 2005 11:19 PM
quote:not always i'm afraid, muslim morons are active in all islamic countries east and west and even among converts, so we better think again about that question; why is our religion breeding so many morons? IP: Logged |
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Zaykon Member Posts: 126 |
posted 21 October 2005 11:33 PM
this incident is not all over alex it's just in 'mo7aram bik' and believe some ppl here in alex don't know about it specially muslims. IP: Logged |
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misfit Member Posts: 505 |
posted 21 October 2005 11:40 PM
quote:i absolutely agree, i'm willing to bet my life that none of those protesters have actually witnessed the play and that all this inflammation is due to hearsay. the fact is that coptics are no angels, many of them are angry at the oppression they faced in their country and are willing to insult islam and they do that when they can, but the question: is how do we define insulting islam? the problem with muslims is that they do not accept criticizm, they believe they have the right to undermine all other religions everyday and call them absolute crap, and in the same time deny the right of others to do the same to islam considering that they should gladly accept our allegations that it's the one and only true religion! we have invaded spain in the past when we could and we called it "opening" instead of invasion believing it's our god given right to do so and we are still proud of it, but when charity organizations in the christian west are sending people to help the muslim needies who are dying of famine in africa because we didn't do anything to help them we call them missionaries who are seeking converting those dying africans into christianity and we get so irate and feel islam is targeted etc, what kind of logic is that? IP: Logged |
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Masriii Member Posts: 123 |
posted 21 October 2005 11:59 PM
And those idiots did it in Ramadan!!! Do you know what happened when a newspaper here published an article about a priest who made love to christian women seeking his advice? the next day many christians made riots and insulted Islam and Muslims...the journal was turned down, copies collected the head was thrown in prison and persecuted till his death !!!! What did they do when the movie "baheb el sema" speaking of fanatic Christian man behaviour appeared? again riots and protests althout those who did the movie were mainly Christians!! How many Egyptian movies made fun of Muslim fanatics, hijab, and Islam? So many !!!! So many times I have seen the shikh or ma'zoun appear as a funny silly chracter but they dare not do it to Priests!! sO CALLED mUSLIM COUNTRY INDEED!!! IP: Logged |
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Tiger,Tiger Member Posts: 192 |
posted 22 October 2005 12:18 AM
I the fact is that coptics are no angels, many of them are angry at the oppression they faced in their country and are willing to insult islam and they do that when they can, but the question: is how do we define insulting islam? the problem with muslims is that they do not accept criticizm, they believe they have the right to undermine all other religions everyday and call them absolute crap, and in the same time deny the right of others to do the same to islam considering that they should gladly accept our allegations that it's the one and only true religion! we have invaded spain in the past when we could and we called it "opening" instead of invasion believing it's our god given right to do so and we are still proud of it, but when charity organizations in the christian west are sending people to help the muslim needies who are dying of famine in africa because we didn't do anything to help them we call them missionaries who are seeking converting those dying africans into christianity and we get so irate and feel islam is targeted etc, what kind of logic is that? [/QUOTE] IP: Logged |
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Tiger,Tiger Member Posts: 192 |
posted 22 October 2005 12:24 AM
quote:not always i'm afraid, muslim morons are active in all islamic countries east and west and even among converts, so we better think again about that question; why is our religion breeding so many morons? [/B][/QUOTE] IP: Logged |
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Tiger,Tiger Member Posts: 192 |
posted 22 October 2005 12:32 AM
b][/QUOTE]not always i'm afraid, muslim morons are active in all islamic countries east and west and even among converts, so we better think again about that question; why is our religion breeding so many morons? [/B][/QUOTE] IP: Logged |
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Masriii Member Posts: 123 |
posted 22 October 2005 12:46 AM
quote: True IP: Logged |
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misfit Member Posts: 505 |
posted 22 October 2005 02:14 AM
quote:try to calm down, you are claiming that not all muslims are hard headed but you are still giving an example for the inflammatory reaction that muslims get as soon as they face criticism. i'm a muslim whether you (or me) like it or not. it's not a matter of choice here, not yours not mine, and i have the right to criticize my religion as well as the behaviour of my fellow muslims. there's no such thing as good cause invasion that you're talking about and excuse me, isn't that the same twisted logic moronic George Bush is using and the moronic old crusaders were using? what was the good cause the arabs used to invade egypt, persia or syria? what was the danger posed by egypt against the hijazz land at the beginning of islam that justified it's invasion? what was the threat posed by spain years later? you are only rationalizing the wrong deeds of your party just like any colonial we are cursing night and day would do, except now we are the weak side who will suffer colonialism not the other way round. you mentioned america and the native americans and jews and the arabs, do you think of those as good examples? if not, then why do we have to keep bad examples as our ideal? or you mean to say that we were not worse than them and in this case i agree and what i was suggesting was that we should not claim to be better than them either! try to think clearly and you'll find you don't have a point to make, and regarding islamic terrorism; tarek was suggesting it must be the culture behind this moron behaviour so i replied it couldn't possibly be the culture because it would have been limited to a certain area while islamic "moronity" is ubequitous all around the world! IP: Logged |
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Tiger,Tiger Member Posts: 192 |
posted 22 October 2005 09:50 PM
quote:i'm a muslim whether you (or me) like it or not. it's not a matter of choice here, not yours not mine isn't that the same twisted logic moronic George Bush is using and the moronic old crusaders were using?
First: I’m a Muslim and proud of it and it is by choice. And you do not have to be a Muslim also by choice…. “Isn’t that the same twisted logic moronic George Bush is using and the moronic old crusaders were using?” ‘If you didn't realize till now that Muslims are the most fanatic and trouble making extremists all around the world then you is deluding yourself,” “come up with a meaningful answer instead of burying your head in the sand and pretending the danger is not real or trying to launch a personal attack at me because attacking or even exterminating me is not going to solve the problem of Muslim fanaticism” IP: Logged |
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Tiger,Tiger Member Posts: 192 |
posted 22 October 2005 10:30 PM
quote: http://www.ahram.org.eg/Index.asp?CurFN=fron5.htm&DID=8648 IP: Logged |
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Automatic For The People Member Posts: 140 |
posted 22 October 2005 10:58 PM
quote:
With the exception of Spain and the UK, the population of every country you mentioned have been oppressed for centuries. Muslims have systematically been persecuted in every way possible. People in Palestine,Iraq and Afghanistan are under occupation. They are fighting for their freedom . Not all of them are Muslims and those who are can not be describe as terrorists. The fact that it is also evident among converts, who lack that culture factor, has a significance. What fact and what significance? come up with a meaningful answer instead of burying your head in the sand and pretending the danger is not real or trying to launch a personal attack at me because attacking or even exterminating me is not gonna solve the problem of muslim fanaticism. Well....since you are so knowledgable and all of history religion and politics to mention a few of you great talent. An Egyptian man will wake tomorrow in a brand new society that knows no religion whatsoever. [This message has been edited by Automatic For The People (edited 22 October 2005).] IP: Logged |
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Automatic For The People Member Posts: 140 |
posted 22 October 2005 11:21 PM
quote: As it happens I have more questions:
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sonomod Member Posts: 3005 |
posted 22 October 2005 11:29 PM
quote:
Egypt has had its share of riots. Though in general Egypt is a nation that won't revolt against authority but it has happened and mainly over grainery supplies during famine. And during some of these riots Egyptians revolted against its military not its priesthood. So naturally its strange that until Egypt had more than one faith in its mist the riots were over food. When two or more faiths are in Egypt the riots are over faith. But people are still hungry today Coptic and Muslim alike. But why isn't there rioting over food?
And Automatic you didn't express any concern or disappointment over the riot and the circumstances that lead to the riots. Why are you only upset with Misfit? And not the riot itself? IP: Logged |
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Tiger,Tiger Member Posts: 192 |
posted 23 October 2005 12:01 AM
quote: I'm pleased that not only me who did not get Mr misfit comments..but I got to tell him if you do not have something nice to say try silence.... IP: Logged |
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Tiger,Tiger Member Posts: 192 |
posted 23 October 2005 12:04 AM
quote:try to calm down, you are claiming that not all muslims are hard headed but you are still giving an example for the inflammatory reaction that muslims get as soon as they face criticism. i'm a muslim whether you (or me) like it or not. it's not a matter of choice here, not yours not mine, and i have the right to criticize my religion as well as the behaviour of my fellow muslims. there's no such thing as good cause invasion that you're talking about and excuse me, isn't that the same twisted logic moronic George Bush is using and the moronic old crusaders were using? what was the good cause the arabs used to invade egypt, persia or syria? what was the danger posed by egypt against the hijazz land at the beginning of islam that justified it's invasion? what was the threat posed by spain years later? you are only rationalizing the wrong deeds of your party just like any colonial we are cursing night and day would do, except now we are the weak side who will suffer colonialism not the other way round. you mentioned america and the native americans and jews and the arabs, do you think of those as good examples? if not, then why do we have to keep bad examples as our ideal? or you mean to say that we were not worse than them and in this case i agree and what i was suggesting was that we should not claim to be better than them either! try to think clearly and you'll find you don't have a point to make, and regarding islamic terrorism; tarek was suggesting it must be the culture behind this moron behaviour so i replied it couldn't possibly be the culture because it would have been limited to a certain area while islamic "moronity" is ubequitous all around the world! I guess I have to waste two more mintues with you ... First: I’m a Muslim and proud of it and it is by choice. And you do not have to be a Muslim also by choice…. “Isn’t that the same twisted logic moronic George Bush is using and the moronic old crusaders were using?” ‘If you didn't realize till now that Muslims are the most fanatic and trouble making extremists all around the world then you is deluding yourself,” “come up with a meaningful answer instead of burying your head in the sand and pretending the danger is not real or trying to launch a personal attack at me because attacking or even exterminating me is not going to solve the problem of Muslim fanaticism” IP: Logged |
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Tiger,Tiger Member Posts: 192 |
posted 23 October 2005 12:07 AM
quote:try to calm down, you are claiming that not all muslims are hard headed but you are still giving an example for the inflammatory reaction that muslims get as soon as they face criticism. i'm a muslim whether you (or me) like it or not. it's not a matter of choice here, not yours not mine, and i have the right to criticize my religion as well as the behaviour of my fellow muslims. there's no such thing as good cause invasion that you're talking about and excuse me, isn't that the same twisted logic moronic George Bush is using and the moronic old crusaders were using? what was the good cause the arabs used to invade egypt, persia or syria? what was the danger posed by egypt against the hijazz land at the beginning of islam that justified it's invasion? what was the threat posed by spain years later? you are only rationalizing the wrong deeds of your party just like any colonial we are cursing night and day would do, except now we are the weak side who will suffer colonialism not the other way round. you mentioned america and the native americans and jews and the arabs, do you think of those as good examples? if not, then why do we have to keep bad examples as our ideal? or you mean to say that we were not worse than them and in this case i agree and what i was suggesting was that we should not claim to be better than them either! try to think clearly and you'll find you don't have a point to make, and regarding islamic terrorism; tarek was suggesting it must be the culture behind this moron behaviour so i replied it couldn't possibly be the culture because it would have been limited to a certain area while islamic "moronity" is ubequitous all around the world! First: I’m a Muslim and proud of it and it is by choice. And you do not have to be a Muslim also by choice…. “Isn’t that the same twisted logic moronic George Bush is using and the moronic old crusaders were using?” ‘If you didn't realize till now that Muslims are the most fanatic and trouble making extremists all around the world then you is deluding yourself,” “come up with a meaningful answer instead of burying your head in the sand and pretending the danger is not real or trying to launch a personal attack at me because attacking or even exterminating me is not going to solve the problem of Muslim fanaticism” IP: Logged |
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Tiger,Tiger Member Posts: 192 |
posted 23 October 2005 12:12 AM
quote: The answer is in your post " Fortunately Egyptians have always been religious whether that was the Pagan faith (sometimes it was monothiest), Christainity, Judiasm or Islam. " and mr misfit was insulting and ofendingggggggggggggg &and that is not in defence of the riots...Two wrongs will never make a right IP: Logged |
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Automatic For The People Member Posts: 140 |
posted 23 October 2005 12:18 AM
quote: Because he is exactly how he describes people , Fanatic. The same goes for tarek. He considers Muslims fanatics.....and then call himself Muslim. So I'm only confirming his opinion of himself, that he is a fanatic.
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sonomod Member Posts: 3005 |
posted 23 October 2005 12:44 AM
quote: Well here is the bit from BBC: Entitled I Once Was Blind But Now I See, the drama tells the story of a poor young Copt who is drawn to Islamist militants who then try to kill him. On Wednesday, a Muslim man stabbed a nun in protest at the sale of a DVD of the play, staged at the church in 2003 Coptic Christian leaders have said the play depicts the dangers of extremism, not of Islam. "Copts would never tolerate anyone insulting Islam," Coptic Bishop Armia is quoted by Egypt's official Mena news agency as saying. So it was correct the Play was offensive to Islam. And so is there literature about Muslims embracing Christianity and then turning back to Islam only to be tormented by Christains? Well there hasn't been any riots about that! IP: Logged |
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sonomod Member Posts: 3005 |
posted 23 October 2005 12:51 AM
Now let me include the English version of the Ahram article: One step forward, two steps back The latest Muslim-Christian dispute may have been peacefully defused, but Mustafa El-Menshawy, in Alexandria, senses tension in the air -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last week's sectarian tension in Alexandria began in much the same way previous Muslim-Christian disputes had: with the publication of a tabloid story. This time, the newspaper in question -- Al-Midan -- published an article about a church play that defamed Islam. The play -- which begins with a poor Christian university student converting to Islam after a group of Muslim men offer him money to do so -- was called I was blind but now I can see. The twist in the plot comes when the convert later decides to return to Christianity. The same Muslims then threaten him with violence. The day after the article -- which included extracts from the play -- appeared, a group of people entered a mosque next door to the church in question, and showed worshippers a copy of the paper. An angry crowd of about 100 people promptly marched towards the neighbouring church. As word spread around, the crowd got bigger, with some 3,000 people eventually taking part. Some were there to support the demonstrators' demands, while others were just curious about the goings on. Local police were quickly deployed in the hundreds; and by three in the morning, had dispersed the angry demonstrators. But while the demonstration may have ended peacefully after the police intervened, the tension in the Muharram Bek neighbourhood is far from defused. Its most visible sign are the dozens of armoured vehicles surrounding the Saint George Church. Local Muslims are insisting that the church, as well as Coptic leaders in the Mediterranean coastal city, should apologise for the performance. "Pope Shenouda [the head of Egypt's Coptic Church] must offer an apology," said Ahmed El-Guindi, whose house is next door to the church, "and those directly involved in insulting Islam on stage inside the church have to be put on trial." One resident said the demonstrators had agreed to leave on condition that the police would be given "a week to obtain an explanation about what happened, and for the church to apologize". Nearly a week later, the two demands have not been met, fueling fears that more protests could take place. Al-Majlis Al-Milli, a council that officially represents the Coptic community and is chaired by Pope Shenouda, acknowledged that the play was performed in the church -- two years ago. Dismissing claims that the play was meant to insult Islam, the council said -- in a statement sent to Al-Ahram Weekly -- that "it was performed for one day within the context of combating terrorism." According to a close aide of Pope Shenouda, "the demonstrators took to the streets without verifying whether the press reports about the play were right or wrong." The top church official, Archbishop Armia, said, "Christians have no grudges against Islam." Despite these reassurances, the incident was a vivid reminder of how fragile relations between Muslims and Christians have become. Also last week, some 500 people demonstrated in front of a Christian woman's house in Ain Shams, an eastern suburb of Cairo, after a "rumour" spread that she had kidnapped a girl and forced her to embrace Christianity. The police arrested the woman and searched her house. She was later released after the girl was found to have lost consciousness following a car accident, and was being cared for by a stranger. Sameh Fawzi, the editor of Watani (My Nation), a prominent Coptic newspaper, says that "reading a number of tabloid newspapers will clearly reveal how a sensitive topic like religion is often manipulated to pit Muslims and Christians against each other." Several newspapers, for instance, have recently been running stories claiming that churches are doing intensive missionary work among university students across the country. Other analysts go further, saying the government, on the one hand, and Christian leaders, on the other, are using the press for explicit political ends. "With more external support from the US," said Coptic thinker Gamal Asaad, "church leaders are trying to put more pressure on the government." In fact, a US-government sponsored conference on Coptic grievances in Egypt is scheduled for 16 November in Washington. Participants will reportedly press for the Egyptian government to provide more freedoms for Copts. They will also demand the amendment of a constitutional article that considers Islam "Egypt's official religion and main source of legislation". The meeting is seen as a means for Washington to exercise more pressure on the Egyptian government, and for Copts to extract more concessions at home. Asaad, who is known for his criticism of the church's involvement in politics, said that when "the government faces church leaders' political escalation, it resorts to triggering Islamist fears." To prove his point, Asaad cited press reports that State Security officers orchestrated the Alexandria protests. If that is true, he said, the government was clearly attempting to embarrass Coptic leaders. Waleed Orabi, the journalist who wrote the Al-Midan story, said he had obtained a CD of the performance from a source inside the Alexandria church where the play took place. He refused to provide any other details on the matter. Muharram Bek, where the protests took place, is known as a hotbed of Islamism. Eyewitnesses, however, said the people who instigated worshippers to demonstrate outside the church "were from Cairo, and not from the neighbourhood". Coptic analyst Kamel Zakher said a bigger problem was the way the government tended to deal with incidents like the one that took place in Alexandria. "The government has to stop dealing with Coptic issues from a security perspective. It has to face grievances head-on." One suggestion, he said, was to raise awareness about differences between Islam and Christianity, and the need to respect both religious paths. Residents said that imams from neighbourhood mosques were actually brought in by the police to convince the demonstrators to disperse. These imams supposedly told the crowd that Islam is a religion that promotes tolerance between Muslims and Christians, and that this was the wrong way to express their grievances about the play. Asaad and other analysts also urge church authorities to end their monopoly over Christian politics, which they said has prevented the rise of a more vibrant political dialogue amongst ordinary Christians. A nationwide reform movement encouraging more political participation by both Muslims and Christians, as was the case before the 1952 Revolution, would also help, Asaad said. In 2000, when 20 Copts and one Muslim were killed in clashes in Upper Egypt's Kosheh village, prominent political analyst Mohamed Hassanein Heikal appealed to President Hosni Mubarak to take drastic measures towards settling the root causes of sectarian disputes. There has also been subsequent US pressure on the regime in that same vein. Two years ago, Mubarak enacted a decree allowing Coptic Christmas an official national holiday. In September, Assiut Governor Ahmed Hammam, a Muslim, laid the foundations for a LE3 million church. The governorate had previously been the scene of bloody clashes between Muslims and Christians. The international community has hailed some of these moves. In September, the US State Department's annual international religious freedom report said the Egyptian government had taken steps to promote and improve "religious freedom and tolerance". IP: Logged |
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sonomod Member Posts: 3005 |
posted 23 October 2005 12:54 AM
Despite these reassurances, the incident was a vivid reminder of how fragile relations between Muslims and Christians have become. Also last week, some 500 people demonstrated in front of a Christian woman's house in Ain Shams, an eastern suburb of Cairo, after a "rumour" spread that she had kidnapped a girl and forced her to embrace Christianity. The police arrested the woman and searched her house. She was later released after the girl was found to have lost consciousness following a car accident, and was being cared for by a stranger. And why was this woman arrested so urgently? Why didn't they try to investigate and ask questions instead of using force first? And secondly why wasn't there a mass Christian demonstration against this? I mean if the girl (who was in the accident) was a Christian or if the woman who lent aid to the girl was a Muslimah then there wouldn't have been an arrest would there? IP: Logged |
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sonomod Member Posts: 3005 |
posted 23 October 2005 01:12 AM
Muharram Bek, where the protests took place, is known as a hotbed of Islamism. Eyewitnesses, however, said the people who instigated worshippers to demonstrate outside the church "were from Cairo, and not from the neighbourhood". I know what the trip between Cairo and Alex is like it takes between 4 and 6 hours. To have the instigators in sufficent enough numbers to rouse 100 to 3000 demonstrators to protest takes alot of effort. Just for the drive between the two cities is difficult to coordinate for 6 people, I know I have had to sit in an over packed peugot and its no picnic. It costs a great deal to move just 6 people between Cairo and ALex. To sit this up must've taken time and lots of travel between the two cities. Hence, the play was 2 years ago. The article writen by Waleed Orabi was recent and he won't discuss it so the demonstration was being planned for quite a while. Stabbing the nun was probably discussed in great detail. And I wonder Automatic if the government will investigate and charge anyone for inciting a riot and the stabbing. Probably not. And why didn't the riot instigators take the DVD of the play to the authorities to press charges? Why because they wanted bloodshed, because they want to cause harm to the Copts. The instigators want the Copts to leave Egypt for good. Which will probably happen and I wish I would sooner than later. Now look at other North African countries. Libya had a huge Jewish population and during its revolutions all Jews and Christians immediately migrated, overnight. Same in Tunisia. Very few academics let alone international authorities like the UN has ever looked into why Christians and Jews left Libya and Tunisia in such a large hurry. As I said it was overnight. And I know for a fact that Libya doesn't have any Christian or Jewish cemetaries. Meaning even Christian and Jewish Churches, Synagogues, cemetaries, schools, libraries, and homes disappeared overnight. Why doesn't anyone address this? Even in the Academic community? Now if Egypt did the same, there will be much documentation, discussion on it. Why? Because Egypt has made a point of broadcasting to the world that it honors religious freedoms. I wish Egypt had never put that article into its constitution. The government isn't allowed to honor that part of the constitution anyhow. I wish the Copts would leave Egypt. They are an EMBARASSMENT to Egypt. They are given an article in the constitution detailing their right to religious freedom and then dare to be so ungrateful as to expect equal protection. Secondly there is lies written everyday about the Christian faith, spoken in Friday sermons denouncing Christainity, and that Christians cannot expect due process nor can they expect to be protected by the Egyptian government. I mean its all the government's fault. They should've never allowed the Copts to stay and should've never put that article into the constitution, and lastly the government along with all 'true' believers should've right after the 'Free Officers Revolution' should've cleaned up after the Christain exodus and wiped out all proof of a Christian Egypt; Church, schools, libraries, cemetaries and homes. I mean no one bothers to pester Libya and Tunisia about their Christians that once were. Its the governments fault! IP: Logged |
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bibo1978 Junior Member Posts: 18 |
posted 23 October 2005 03:13 AM
I don't agree with you, coptics have full right to live in egypt, anyone have full right to live anywhere, this is the islamic rule there is only one exception which is mekkah, and I believe that the muslims have the full right to protest, someone wondered if people had seen the act well I am sure he didn't see it. Anyhow what was not acceptable is the way people protest, muslims feels like there religion has been insulted and all they asked for was a apology and they have protested one week before and they gave the christians a week to apologize, the week had passsed and there was no respond from the other side, I guess its Fair enough to protest once again yet the way things went from some ignorant protestors is unrelated to islam infact i believe that behind this lies the government. I think that the whole thing might be a play to keep "kanoon el taware2". Even if it's not the motive I still blame the government for not playing iany role to contaminate the situation within the past week, all this would have been ended with an apology!! what am afriad of is that this play might have been from foriegn country. IP: Logged |
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sonomod Member Posts: 3005 |
posted 23 October 2005 03:23 AM
quote: Oh wow did you manage to contradict yourself in so many ways? Oh I don't know how you managed to but you managed to hang the blame on the Copts and the government all over again. But thanks for telling us about the possibility that the Israelis or Amricans made the play in order to cause a rift in Egyptian society. Don't you even acknowledge that the tape is 2 years old? Why give them one week? It has taken 2 years to organize the riot, and plan the stabbing of the nun. I mean Egypt has to have the best talent for spin doctoring! I could never be that the riot was engineered by extremist! Bravo! IP: Logged |
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Masriii Member Posts: 123 |
posted 23 October 2005 03:44 AM
quote: The last few years there were many riots by Christians for trivial reasons . Once it's about a preist wife being kidnapped then they found out she wasn't, another about two girls being forced to become Muslims in El Fayoum and again nothing!! And many protest of that kind all over.!!! The one about the preist's wife they beat some journalists and police men!!! I mentioned about what the government has done to the head of this newspaper "El Naba'" who published an article with pics about a preist misusing preisthood with Christian women, He is dead now!!! Religious Christian men have so much more freedom than religious Muslim and you can check our prisons for this!!!!! Egyptians -Muslims and Christians-are not tolerant with insulting religions but the last response of the church is very hyporcritical, They said the play is against extremism and not Islam like Adel Imam's movies against FANATIC mUSLIMS!!!! FIne!!! Great!!! But what did this church do when the movie "Baheb El sema" (I love Cinema) was produced and directed by Christians appeared? Protest and complain as it talks about fanatic Christian man!!The Christian man didn't even turn to Islam in the movie!!! Comeone!! he Egyptian Cinema is full of movies attacking Islamic traditions and fanatic Muslims and when one single movie address fanatic Christian, all this happen!!! And why the church is interested in making a play discussing Islamic extremis in their church !!!!! Too many questions!!!! [This message has been edited by Masriii (edited 23 October 2005).] IP: Logged |
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sonomod Member Posts: 3005 |
posted 23 October 2005 03:56 AM
quote:
And I'd like to see journalism articles in English to back up your claims. And mind you no one got killed or stabbed in these 'Coptic' demonstations? And mind you I don't believe that Imams or Mullahs aren't committing evil sins. I just don't believe that a Imam or Mullah will ever be prosecuted for their crimes nor will anyone complain to the authorities about the lapse.
Please don't tell me the Copts are oppressing you like Saddam? [This message has been edited by sonomod (edited 23 October 2005).] IP: Logged |
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bibo1978 Junior Member Posts: 18 |
posted 23 October 2005 04:06 AM
sonomod I am from alex and there was no nun stabbing where did you get that from, what are the two years you are talking about, the copts says it has been two years, but the problem happened when some people at the church run the tape at the loudspeakers tuesday the 11th of october 2005 while muslims where doing the pray at night. muslims didn't know that this tape is two years old, the nun was hurted because she was thrown with stones as I heard I don't know how true is this but he nun is at the church so I guess that she is well - I hope so, anyhow I don't have anything against christians yesterday I was discussing the issue with a fellow he is a copt, don't you see they want us to struggle . The problem lies in why such a play had ever been made muslims never did such a thing to copts, and if they did I would apologize for that hey Mr. Bush had apologized for addressing his war against terrorism a crusaides. Anyhow I am not your enemy I only said what is in my mind. And I think that copts should apologize. [This message has been edited by bibo1978 (edited 23 October 2005).] [This message has been edited by bibo1978 (edited 23 October 2005).] IP: Logged |
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sonomod Member Posts: 3005 |
posted 23 October 2005 04:07 AM
Okay Masriii, The Copts are your AMACO and if only you could humiliate them and toss them out on their arses or better yet reason with them enough to believe what you believe (the true belief) then all those Imams and Mullahs who studied in KSA under continueal humiliation from the Suadis can rectify themselves with a true Muslim nation and cast those rightous Suadis into shame. I mean thats what its all about. KSA is a false Muslim nation because the Royal and rich aren't strong in their deen. No one can critize them for it, and these humiliated Imams and Mullahs strive to put them in the Saudi elite in their place! Yeah thats right! IP: Logged |
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Masriii Member Posts: 123 |
posted 23 October 2005 04:10 AM
quote: Sono!! You're a search ecyclopedia , why don't search for what I said?!! or ask Egyptians you know?!!! I'm not saying Christiants are opressing us!! the government is oppressing both!!! but it's much more easier to fill prisons with muslims -and Yeah many of them are Imams- than putting a christian in prison without a charge, why? Because Christians have a card they can play with that Muslims don't have!! It's named "USA" card!!!And Mubarak wont mess with the USA!!! Who give a damn about Muslims?!!! Did not the USA send a committe to Egypt before to investigate the condition of Christian in Egypt? And Egyptian Christians leaders smartly told them, they-Egyptian Christians- live in a perfect lovely country ?!!! IP: Logged |
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Masriii Member Posts: 123 |
posted 23 October 2005 04:17 AM
quote: Hallucinations once again?!! IP: Logged |
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sonomod Member Posts: 3005 |
posted 23 October 2005 04:27 AM
quote:
Sorry about that I didn't include the link when I posted the article: http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2005/765/eg6.htm I am from alex and there was no nun stabbing where did you get that from: the nytimes article, here's the hyperlink to the picture: but the problem happened when some people at the church run the tape at the loudspeakers tuesday the 11th of october 2005 while muslims where doing the pray at night. muslims didn't know that this tape is two years old Nor did the Muslims ask when the tape was made. How do you know that the tape was played by the Church? Got any proof? And besides why would the Copts provoke them? It sounds like a setup! The problem lies in why such a play had ever been made muslims never did such a thing to copts Actually they have. And I don't see anything wrong with one group trying to keep their youth within the faith. Muslims strive to keep their youth Muslim so why shouldn't the Copts? and if they did I would apologize for that hey Mr. Bush had apologized for addressing his war against terrorism a crusaides. I never heard Mr. Bush apologize for anything. He might say it in one sentence and then contradict himself in another. You cannot apologize in one breath and then turn around and take back that apology in the next breath. Thats double-speak. And he learned it from the House of Saud. Something alot of Egyptian migrants brought home with them. I know my FIL worked in Riyahd for 8 years. And I was being heavily sarcastic when I remarked that it was derogatory in my post responding to Automatic. I don't think the Copts should apologize for trying to keep their youth Copts. I mean its such a shame that Egypt claims to protect religious freedom. Christians cannot proselytize, and why should Muslims? And yes the Quran demands proselytize, but so does the Bible. Lets respect each other's faiths and not intrude on each others. IP: Logged |
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sonomod Member Posts: 3005 |
posted 23 October 2005 04:33 AM
quote: At least when I consider gitmo, I know they are there because they are Muslim. Terrorism is not any indication why the detainees are there, its their religion and their geographical location. No you are hallucinating. I wish I could post some pretty ugly articles on ES (history) about the Ottoman system of oppression, the House of Saud system of oppression. But it isn't all of Egypt just like this so called demonstation isn't all of Egypt. But most Egyptians will support the 'demonstrators', unequivically without question or reason. Too bad Islam demands reason. Its the one thing the majority uses the least! IP: Logged |
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Masriii Member Posts: 123 |
posted 23 October 2005 04:36 AM
quote: Take your pills!!! IP: Logged |
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bibo1978 Junior Member Posts: 18 |
posted 23 October 2005 05:25 AM
[B] Nor did the Muslims ask when the tape was made. How do you know that the tape was played by the Church? Got any proof? And besides why would the Copts provoke them? It sounds like a setup! [b] I had a cousin that was praying in the mosique near the chruch, may be it was a set up or may be not but the problem lies still that this tape insults muslims, why ever such a play was done ??!! for keeping faith, huh. [B]Actually they have. And I don't see anything wrong with one group trying to keep their youth within the faith. Muslims strive to keep their youth Muslim so why shouldn't the Copts? [b] This is not in islam, we have this versus that says "you have your religion and we have ours", along with the other versus that says :"do not insult the disbeliever's god so that they may insult allah back, without knowledge". IP: Logged |
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Humanized Member Posts: 340 |
posted 23 October 2005 05:45 AM
quote: what nonesense are you talking about , what ottoman/house of saud BS you want to talk about...what does it have to do with egypt today anyway??
and because you read a few history books , you want to teach us history!!! ffs dont you have better things to do ?? or is ES the only place where you can brag about "Books" you read?? IP: Logged |
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TAREK307 Member Posts: 147 |
posted 23 October 2005 06:26 AM
quote: hahahahhahahhaahhah, i agree 100%, sonomod should host a game show called "THE BLAME GAME" IP: Logged |
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kafir4 ever Member Posts: 597 |
posted 23 October 2005 08:08 AM
Actually Muslims are whipped up into a frenzy to frighten anyone from critiquing Islam as this has been a successful strategy over time. An ideology based on lies cannot stand being criticized like it criticizes other ideologies. It must be protected by blasphemy laws where it rules and where it doesn’t rule seek for it special space free from criticism. This is being done by shuting down critical debate and shame those who dare question anything to do with Islam. Christians don't feel insecure when Bible is criticised They don't execute people on blasphemy charges. Try telling the truth that quran sucks in an Islamic country. If you can't respect free speech, instead try to execute the critic, then the offensive verses have to be deleted. Like it or not. I will never have a problem declaring that I am a kafir in a non-Islamic country. I can safely say there Torah/Gita/Bible is garbage in jew, hindu, christian society and go unharmed. Even if you try to reason on even small portion of Quran is actually unsuitable, Muslims will get you executed in public by throwing stones or by beheading. Unless there is a substantial section of Muslims which are willing to question the fundamentals on which the religion has been built upon over the centuries, Islam won't improve. Those that question Islam should not fear of persectution. Few things like blasphemy laws, supression of women have to be uprooted from Islamic society. West can't do much other than use of force to do these things. And they will look for immediate benifits of whatever they do. You can't really blame the US or UK for this. They don't spend their $$s to improve some country whom they don't really care beyond their oil. It is the Muslims who have to get out of this mindset of "behead the bastard who questions Koran/Muhammad". West cant possibly bring about this change. Unless they do that Muslims will remain threat to rest of the world. First and foremost, clerics should be stripped of right to pass judgements. Criminal justice system should try emulate the west. West is not perfect in this(or anything), but is streets ahead of Islamic world in justice system. Unfortunately, I don't see Islamic world capable of understanding anything but US bombing. I have given up all hopes on Muslims reforming on their own. Islamic world is obsessed with Israel(and US) as though that is all life is about. In Pakistan it is Kashmir and India. Islamic world behaves as though other things in life cannot be fixed Palestine and Kashmir. We will address terrorism moment you address Palestine and Kashmir is a very wrong mindset and has the potential to prove very expensive. Take Pakistan. Buggers don't have industry or infrastructure and the country needs US to constantly write off loans and such. But for US these buggers will be bankrupt in no time. Yet they hate US and want to bash it. Man ‘declared infidel’ killed by mob Blasphemy an offense that carries the death sentence in many Islamic countries http://www.petitiononline.com/VMappeal/petition.html And note the double standard. IP: Logged |
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sonomod Member Posts: 3005 |
posted 23 October 2005 10:24 AM
quote:
So Islam and Christianity has alot in common, "the highway or my way mentality" is the strongest link. IP: Logged |
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sonomod Member Posts: 3005 |
posted 23 October 2005 10:46 AM
quote:
Better things to do? Yeah I have college IT courses, which I aced. And surprisingly my husband's Egyptian history is not so wonderful. He went to a military high school and this school presses Egyptian history over religious doctrine. Still this particular school does a much better job than most secondary schools. And I prefer reading Egyptian history by Egyptian authors. You'd be surprised who edited your history textbooks! what nonesense are you talking about , what ottoman/house of saud BS you want to talk about...what does it have to do with egypt today anyway?? Then you don't understand where most of the money publishing editors recieve comes from. Like Rupert Murdoch in the USA the House of Saud has made sure the information you get is santized for their liking. And I don't think the Suadis really care if one corrupt royal is executed. Seriously I don't think the Saudis ever really cared for their royal overlords. What pisses the Saudis off severly is the fact that when the oil boom was taking off not enough Saudis were educated or competent enough to run their own industries. So Egyptians worked side by side with Americans at AMACO to make sure the royals had enough pocket change. And the Saudis who worked for AMACO have a 75% turn over rate every few months. Worst track record of any employer in the Middle East. Somethings wrong. In addition Saudis are the guardians of the two holiest Islamic sites, Mecca and Medina. Yet the most educated and over the course of time the wealthiest, most civilized, most educated of all pilgrims come in bulk from Egypt. These holy sites are in Arabia, yet the people who understand the faith best, and have the best access to these sites are Egypt. Not that many Egyptians held back from shoving it in the Saudis faces over 1400 years. IP: Logged |
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sonomod Member Posts: 3005 |
posted 23 October 2005 10:49 AM
quote: Quit drinking and driving (much more of a negative impact don't you think?) and stop trying to find yourself a festering pool of houchies that will add STDs to your vigor of manhood! (0r lack there of) IP: Logged |
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misfit Member Posts: 505 |
posted 23 October 2005 12:10 PM
quote:i really wish this was the case, i would have felt much better if had the option to choose. and as for you if you were not a muslim and you've converted then it was really your choice, but if you were born in islam then you didn't really make a choice and if you don't like it then you are an apostate and your only option would be to get killed, i'm surprised you don't know that! quote:the pyramids still stands till now, muslims once built a civilization like many other nations, unfortunately their only achievement in modern times is reaching rock bottom but still being able to go further down! quote:again i'm surprised of how little you know, why don't you read more? quote:your overzealous and blind defense against what you perceive as an attack on islam prevents you from rational thinking, when i'm looking for an explanation to the phenomenon of the undeniable wide spread fanaticism practiced by muslims all over the world it doesn't mean that i'm paint brushing ALL muslims as fanatics or terrorists, but yes, a great percentage of them are and this percentage is unprecedented in any other religion followers, how can you deny that? quote:[applause] .. Bravo tiger, your assets may weigh me gold or whatever, but that still doesn't solve the problem of islamic fanaticism! IP: Logged |
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