posted 02 May 2004 07:23 PM            

And don't get me wrong, I don't like that Pharaonic party in Egypt at all. Top of the boot: they're secular, want to bring back ancient Egyptian to replace Arabic language, and keep distance from Arab people. I am not with any of that. Any Arab Muslim is my brother/sister but the fact is Egyptians not Arabs.

posted 04 May 2004 06:56 PM            

The Egyptian Arabic itself is scattered with pharonic Egyptian word that have no Arab origins. Over 14,000 words according to some linguist. Coptic linguist have even pointed out that Saidi Arabic dialect in southern Egypt is so much like the old Coptic dialect of Sahidic.

Do you realize that many of the more rural Egyptians don't even pratice the same Islam as you think. Many still pratice a synchertic Islam much linked to the pharoanic past. You can see this in the moulids and casual everyday occurence in Egypt.

I don't object to religious pratice,because everybody is free to go as they chose. Just stating what my observations are in Egypt,and what my relatives living in Egypt tell me.

posted 06 May 2004 05:40 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by El Kadafi:
I am Upper Egyptian (Aswan), I don't need anyone to tell me anything. [This message has been edited by El Kadafi (edited 04 May 2004).]

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posted 07 May 2004 06:53 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by El Kadafi:
Egyptians are native north African, and are of Hamitic ethnicity. Hamitic peoples are in no way related to Semetic people (Arabs and Jews). Also, ANY Egyptian that has been to Saudi Arabia knows how fakely these people follow Islam, how unIslamic their laws are, and how racist their society is. As an Egyptian, you will be looked down upon as a servent. What the hell do we have to do with these people? Pan-Arabism is also a joke. People can speak the same langauge but not share the same culture. I am a pan-Islamist. Just remember that saying you're not Arab does NOT make you a worse Muslim or severe your love for the Prophet. God created different cultures as a blessing.

And don't get me wrong, I don't like that Pharaonic party in Egypt at all. Top of the boot: they're secular, want to bring back ancient Egyptian to replace Arabic language, and keep distance from Arab people. I am not with any of that. Any Arab Muslim is my brother/sister but the fact is Egyptians not Arabs.

peace and power to the people

---

posted 08 May 2004 02:49 AM            

Brother if you were to mean arabs as arbian. Not all Egyptians think they are arabs and the reason u probebly think like that is probebly from the media, which is BRINGS bull **** really. I consider myself african becuase we egpyt has always been part of Africa ever since the the civilization of AE BEGAN. Its more cultuarally related to Africa then to the rest of the Arab world. lET ME say this the English for Examples americans are not considered English are they only the British are called the English. Same thing just becuase we speak the language dont mean we are Arab. it more deep then the same goes for sudan and other countries in Africa that are labled like that.[/B][/QUOTE]

posted 08 May 2004 08:36 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by bunni:
This topic is so interesting. I'm African-American and I'm really interested in Egyptian culture and history, however I know very little. I don't know any Egyptians personally and I've always thought that Egyptians viewed themselves as Arabs. Is this how the majority feel?

---

Changed my mind, but anyway:

Welcome to ES Bunni :-)

posted 09 May 2004 01:33 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
This is agreed by all,but the fact that Egyptians share nothing in common with Arabs besides language should be emphaized. Arabs always depend upon Egyptians or Egypt as their political dumping ground;yet treat Egyptian workers in Gulf countries like utter trash. What has Pan-Arabism brought Egyptians?

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I agree

posted 10 May 2004 04:18 AM            

"the fact that Egyptians share nothing in common with Arabs besides language should be emphaized"

How about religion, common histroy , struggle over the last 1400 years, the fight against crusaders, Mogols and Clonial power
what more do you need and how about the fact that there are sizable number of people from Arabic ethnic back ground. Egyptians are not treated like trash any where in the world. You make these sweeping statemnts that you can never prove and assert them like they were facts

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
This is agreed by all,but the fact that Egyptians share nothing in common with Arabs besides language should be emphaized. yet treat Egyptian workers in Gulf countries like utter trash. What has Pan-Arabism brought Egyptians?

---

posted 10 May 2004 05:30 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by El Kadafi:
Again, what the HELL do we have to do with those tribal racist rich lazy bedouins in Arabia?

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Tribal racist rich lazy bedouins from Arabia:

posted 10 May 2004 07:07 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by DubaiDoctor:
Where did you pull this from??

"the fact that Egyptians share nothing in common with Arabs besides language should be emphaized"

How about religion, common histroy , struggle over the last 1400 years, the fight against crusaders, Mogols and Clonial power
what more do you need and how about the fact that there are sizable number of people from Arabic ethnic back ground.

---

All this is true but the Egyptians' culture predates Arab culture by several millenia and still exists prominently in Egypt's rural areas. Most Egyptians look distinctively different from Arabs and integrated their own language into their Arabic dialect. Most of the Arab rulers of Egypt have lived in Cairo. Cairo is an Arab city but the rest of Egypt has a strong Egyptian national identity.

quote:

---

Originally posted by DubaiDoctor:

Egyptians are not treated like trash any where in the world. You make these sweeping statemnts that you can never prove and assert them like they were facts

---

I have been told by my Palestinian friend that Egyptians laborers who come to Jordan for work are often discriminated against. Of course there seems to be a high level of classism in Arab culture and many of the Egyptian laborers seeking work in Jordan are likely to be poor.

posted 10 May 2004 07:48 AM            

The ancient pharaonic culture no longer exist, only some survivals in the culture of peasants.The modern Egypt is culturally arab country, alike Lybia, northern Sudan or Tunisia (for example).

"Most Egyptians look distinctively different from Arabs and integrated their own language into their Arabic dialect. "

Yes, Egyptians have often some distinct features like broad nose and face and curly hair:

(IMG) http://www.mun.neu.edu/egypt2003/images/295%20Karim%20on%20the%20felucca.JPG(/IMG)

The modern colloquial is not arabic-coptic hybrid, itīs a normal arabic dialect and itīs close to syrian and especially to sudanese dialect.

"Most of the Arab rulers of Egypt have lived in Cairo. Cairo is an Arab city but the rest of Egypt has a strong Egyptian national identity."

posted 10 May 2004 11:19 AM            

"I have been told by my Palestinian friend that Egyptians laborers who come to Jordan for work are often discriminated against."

This is so sick, it reminded me with Early Americans who justified taking black slaves from Africa by the fact that African them selfs have black slaves!! I don't think that there is a significant discrimination and if it was true it does not take Away the Arabic identity of modern Egyptians

quote:

---

Originally posted by neo*geo:
I have been told by my Palestinian friend that Egyptians laborers who come to Jordan for work are often discriminated against. Of course there seems to be a high level of classism in Arab culture and many of the Egyptian laborers seeking work in Jordan are likely to be poor.

---

posted 10 May 2004 12:03 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by DubaiDoctor:
I have never ever met an Egyptian that claimed he was a non Arab and I know quite alot of them. You walk into any any village in upper Egypt and ask are you an Arab and the answere will be YES, I got the same response from Coptic Egyptian and I got it from Nubian, but what do they now about there own identity!! The only egyptian who claim to be non Arabs are those found on Africano centric web sites and who nows wether they were truely egyptian or Africano centric nuts

---

I have to disagree. I'll admit that I've only known a handful of Egyptians personally but out of that small group, several have said Egyptians are not Arabs. Coptics often boast that they are the "pure" Egyptians because they didn't mix with the Arab Islamic people who came in the 7th century. I'm not sure how true that statement is but it shows the sense of national pride in simply being Egyptian.

posted 10 May 2004 12:58 PM            

quote:

---

The ancient pharaonic culture no longer exist, only some survivals in the culture of peasants.The modern Egypt is culturally arab country, alike Lybia, northern Sudan or Tunisia (for example).

---

This is not exactly true since many pharoanic survials like Shem El Nessim are reognized on a national level celebrated by both the Copts and Muslims. Various pharoanic culture exists also with the various Saint mouleds from the Delta to Abu'l Hagag in Upper Egypt. The birth ceremonies like el Sebou, the forty day funeral ceremony,and visiting the grave of the ancestors are all survials praticed in rural Egypt and Balady neighboorhoods.

quote:

---

The modern colloquial is not arabic-coptic hybrid, itīs a normal arabic dialect and itīs close to syrian and especially to sudanese dialect.

---

You are not a linguist and you cannot make the proclmation about the modern Egyptian colloquial Arabic. Many pure ancient Egyptian words survive in Egyptian colloquial Arabic. Many have estimated around 14,000 words that most Egyptians use on a daily basis. Saidi dialect is very much close to the Coptic Sahidic dialect. Coptic scholar George Sobhy
has written on this issue that clarifies that much of the Saidi Arabic dialect can be translated into Sahidic Coptic.

quote:

---

aybe, but the Arabs migrated also to other parts of Egypt, including Upper Egypt. I think that present-day Cairo is not more or less "arab" than for example Tanta or Asyut.

---

Yes,but there was always conflict between the indigenous fellahin and the Arabic people. Many tribes settled along side living in their own settlements which remained bedouin instead of blending in with the indigenous Sa3eadi or Fellahin in both the Delta and Upper Egypt. Many tribes were kicked out to Libya where many still reside. Blood feuds between the Arabs and indigenous Sa3eadi have been going on since at least the 14th century when many were kicked out to parts of Middle Egypt.

Cairo,on the other hand, was founded by Arabs during their invasion originally named Al Fustat. Later the Fatimid Caliphte built the modern city of Cairo.

No mixing with the city dwellers and the Fellahin occured in large amounts. Most modern day Egyptians come from these Fellahin peasents. Fellahin in both Upper and Lower Egypt were rather isolated from the people in the city. Various ethnic groups from Circussian Turks to Kurds swarmed the cities. Not to mention the countless numbers of slaves from Slavic countries imported to these regions.

quote:

---

hat does not make them non Arab. I have never ever met an Egyptian that claimed he was a non Arab and I know quite alot of them. You walk into any any village in upper Egypt and ask are you an Arab and the answere will be YES, I got the same response from Coptic Egyptian and I got it from Nubian, but what do they now about there own identity!! The only egyptian who claim to be non Arabs are those found on Africano centric web sites and who nows wether

---

You have to be joking with me. You tell a Coptic he is an Arab and most likley he will disagree with you strongly. It is trully doubtful you have even seen to a Sa3eadi village or even amungst the Fellahin in Lower Egypt. None of these people have ever claimed to be Arabs except some Arabic tribes in Hawara,Asyut,and even some parts of Luxor. Ashraf are another group of people that come from Arab migrants but they donot make up the entire population of Egyptians.

A new political part Umm Al Masry is severing the ties with the Arab idenity and reject the notion that Egyptians are Arabs.

Earlier in Egyptian history another proud Egyptian leader named Saad Zaghlul declared that Egyptians were not Arabs!!!!

Saad Zaghlul in his interview with Sir Reginald Wingate, the head of the British administration in Egypt, demanded complete autonomy for the Egyptians. Zaghlul requested a permission for a delegation (or Wafd) to travel to Paris to present the nationalists? demands. Zaghlul told Wingate that the Egyptian were: ?an ancient and capable race with a glorious past ?far more capable of conducting a well ordered Government than the Arabs, Syrians and Mesopotamians?

posted 10 May 2004 01:36 PM            

Colonialism we share with many people in Africa,Asia,and even in the Americas. Honestly ,the Arabic invasion in 640 AD was nothing short of colonialization after how the Arab elite during this period treated the indigenous Fellahin Egyptians. Many inforced jizya tax so harsh that many people had to sell their children into slavery into the cities of Bagdad or other areas around the Caliphte. During this time many Ummayyad Caliphtes stated moving Yemani Arabs into Egypt to attempt to Arabize the Egyptian peasents in the countryside. What about the concept of Mawali where Egyptians had to become a client of an Arab just to become a Muslim. No where in the Quran does it mention such policy but Arabs had such policy in all their settlments from Persia down to Egypt.

here are some accounts that disagree with your statement:

The history of Egypt includes more than its share of wars and
revolutions,but the people have taken no part in them. Only
once,between 725 A.D. and 830 AD,are we told of risings in the country
side.Crushed by taxation of their Arab conquerors,the fellahin
abonded their homes and settled elsewhere. These evasive movements
became almost general,but the repression so terrible that the Copts
decided to open revolt. Six times they rose,but without unity or
plan. Six times they were savagely put down. They are not the stuff
which rebels are made. And even in revolt,the mass of the people
remained unaffected.

page 2

Ayrout, Henry Habib. 1968. The Egyptian Peasant. Translated by John
Alden Williams. Boston: Beacon Press.

At first the fighting was done only by the bedowin Arabs
warriors,lured on by the booty of the luxurious empires they were
destoying,they did not settle as owners of the lands they had
taken,but went on seeking further conquests. At this stage the Arabs
formed the the ruling class amung Muslims;the Islmacist state was
essentially an Arab confederation. The idea that non-Arabs should
become Muslims ,although clearly sationed by the Koran,was still so
unfamilar that any convert who was not a full member by descent of an
Arab tribe had to become a mawali,or clients,of one of them.
Persians,Egyptians,Berbers of Northern Africa and even Arabs by blood
and language who had failed to prove their full membership of the
dominant caste became mawali. Page 40
In theory they were treated equal to the 'pure' Arab Muslims but
impratic they were treated with contempt by these Arab warriors and
for some time denied more than a residual share in treasure accuired
by their conquests.
Page 40
This is how the confusion over the term 'Arab' first arose. Members
of the imperial ruling class were proud of being Arab,however dialute
their Arab ancestry might be. But they were also inclined to refer
disparaginly to those tribesmen who retained their nomadic way of
life and refused to settle diown,[The contemptous attiude was
cordinally reciprocated.] In some parts of the Arabic speaking ,such
as Egypt,the wider tense of the term Arab,that is someone of Arab
culture,was virtually forgotten. In the ninetenth century un Egyptian
Arab was a nomad or semi-nomad who inhabited the desert or the
frideges of the Nile Valley. the wider meaning was only revived in
the twentith century with the reinassaine of Arab nationalism,when
Egypt took up it's natural position as the most powerful of the
indepdent Arab state. However,the suggestion that Egyptians 'are not
really Arabs is still heard if with diminishing frequency.
Page 47
Peter Mansfield
The Arab World: A Comprehensive History
by Peter Mansfield

n 832 AD the Egyptians (Copts) of Basmur, which is the coastal area east of Alexandria revolted in a large movement against the tyrannical rule of the Abbasids. This happened in the patriarchate of Yousab (830-849AD) and the reign of the Calipha Mamun (813-833 AD). The book of The History of the Patriarchs of Alexandria attributed to Severus of Ashmunin attributes the rebellion to the heavy taxes and the harsh treatment of the Copts by the rulers of Egypt and her overseers of taxes who " in spite of the troubles from which the people were suffering, persisted in demanding the taxes without mercy, and men were increasingly and incalculably distressed. their greatest trouble arose from the extortation practiced by the ... overseers of taxes; for what they could not pay was required of them. after this the merciful God by his righteous judgement sent down a great dearth upon egypt, so that wheat reached the price of one dinar for five waibahs. many of the women and infants and young pweople, and of the old and the middle-aged, died of starvation, in fact of the whole population a countless number, through the severity of the famine. and the overseer of taxes was doing harm to the people in every place. and most of the Bashmurite Egyptians were severely chastised, like the Israelites; so that at last they even sold their own children to pay their taxes, because they were greatly distressed. for they were tied to the mills and beaten, so that they should work the mills like cattle." (pp. 486-7of Evetts translation).

The Copts succeeded in driving out the Arab rulers and nearly captured Fustat but Caliph Ma'mun came from Baghdad in a huge army and subdued the Bashmurites. His revenge was terrible: he deported them to Baghdad (three thousand of them) but most died on the way. Those who were taken during the war (five hundred of them) were given as slaves to the tribe of Banu Tayyi in Damascus (for details read The Chronicle of Michael the Syrian).

These Copts when they went to Baghdad continued to practice their crafts there. Later on in the reign of al-Mu'tasim (833-842 AD), this Caliph used the Bashmurites, who were accustomed to life in marshes (the habitat in Bashmur, in Egypt), to defeat the Zanj in southern Iraq (marshes area) * who revolted in the early ninth century. Michael the Syrian says: " When the king saw the Egyptians' brilliant feats of arms in the battle against the Zotaye (Zanj), he appreciated them, and took some of them into his service, to work in the gardens and parks, and others to weave the flaxen garments, in the manner of the Egyptian embroidered work." All the others, he allowed to return to their country, but, unfortunately, on the way back a storm arose and they were all drowned in the sea (Michael the Syrian). What a great tragedy and a great loss of one of the finest men of our Egyptian nation.

Jirja Province (Muderia)in Upper Egypt, now called Sohag Governorate,
is an important Coptic centre. In the 14th century the Circassian
Mamluks banished the Arab Hawarra tribe there, and these raiders saw
to it that all fellaheen, particularly Copts, suffered. Most
fellaheen lost their lands to these Arabs. They were reduced to
slaves, as they were made to work for the Arabs on threat of being
killed. An important book on the history of the area is written by
Mohammad ibn Mohammad ibn Hamid al-Maraghi al-Jirjawi and
called "Nour al iyoon fi zikri Jirja min aahdi thalathati ghiroun."
As usual in books written by Arabs it is full of irrelevant things;
however, it contains some important information on the history of
Upper Egypt (Saeed) as a whole. Westners have ignored the study of
this important part as they focused on the study of Cairo and its
environment. If one has the time and energy to translate that book
with some annotation it will prove a very helpful contribution to the
study of the fellaheen and Copts in Upper Egypt.

Arab writters on the rual Egyptian Fellahin during the Middle Ages
While the villages live on in their enclosed world,almost untouched
by the influence of Islam,the cities were the product of the great
medevil Islamic civlization which was essentially urban. The city
dwellers depised the Fellahin and had almost no contact with them
excepot in the purchase of their crops. It is no exgeration to say
that the citzens of Cairo felt more in common with the inhabitants
felt more in common with the inhabitants of Damacus or Bagdad than he
did with a Egyptian fellahin. All the Arabic litterature of the
period belongs to the cities and provides no insight of the country
side.
Page 100
The Arab World: A Comprehensive History
by Peter Mansfield

My claims of Arabs in the gulf states very badly is not unfounded. You might even read the following that disagrees with your notion that Egyptians are not treated badly by other Arabs. See the following:

Another characteristic of the Egyptians is that they have a
fatalistic qand submissive streck,which makes them liable to be
mistreated when abroad. An Egyptian once complained to me in a
suprised and hurt tone,''The other Arabs,they are not nice to us.''

page 10

Michael Field

Inside the Arab World

posted 10 May 2004 03:54 PM            

Besides unlike many Arab countries you can be black in Egypt and not be called "slave" by people who don't even know you.

I'm Muslim and Egyptian. Don't gotta be Arab (no big deal if you are but no big deal if I'm not).

Genetically Egyptians are most closely related to Algerians.

posted 10 May 2004 04:04 PM            

Now back to Egypt,It is no denying that 90-95% are muslims and almost 100% speak Arabic. Egyptian will view them selfs as ARABS with deep very deep connections to ARABS else where, with deep connections to Arab and Islamic history. Go to any village and they immediatly idnetify with Prophet Mohammed, identify with Some one like Salhudden how faught the crossaidor, and will associate with prominant names in Arabic and islamic history that all Arabs associate them selfs with. I went to Qena to visit the Hathor temple in Dendra and on the way back to Luxor I saw a simple old egyptian farmer who enquired "are you going to visit Sidi Abdulraheim Shrein" No was my answer. the Guy looked at me from top to bottom and questioned my sanity and said why are you visiting the phroas and not the muslim Saint??
You are in hug denial. look I came across thousends of Egyptians and I never had a problem talking to them. I am sure there are AE words, as I am sure there is many Greek and latin mixed into modern Arabic egyptian but that does not change the Arabic identity of the egyptians. I have been to Malta and I can tell you that Maltese langauge is more than 90% arabic. I talked to them in Arabic and I had no problem comunicating to them. However they are not Arabs simply becouse they don't view them selfs that way. in some estimates 7-10% of spanish langauge is Arabic but that does not make the spaniard Arabs

posted 10 May 2004 04:04 PM            

Algerians are Amazigh[Berbers],and modern Egyptians are not.

posted 10 May 2004 04:19 PM            

The problem is that Egyptian schools teach nothing about the pharoanic past so most children don't know much about the one great ancient culture. Lots of Egyptians subconsciously pratice many cultural traits that many know very little about their pharoanic origin. Even if many proclaim Arab like some Aswani Egyptians do does not make them akin to Arabs. Many people from Northern Africa to various regions will proclaim they are a Sharifa of the phophet Mohammed without much notice into it actually being a reality.

You act like ownership of the Islamic religion is something exlcusive to Arabs. When Mohammed brought Islam to the paganistic Arabs many people rejected it so much the Arabs had to flee into Abyssinia. Why is this? Being a Muslim does not tie you to being an Arab any more than being Christain ties you to European nationalism.

If Egyptians are so much like Arabs then why are our national traditions so different. Do they pratice El Sebou,Shem El Nessim or El arebiyin when a person becomes deceased. Why is Egyptian colloquial Arabic spinkled with pharoanic words that tie back to pharoanic times? Why are our Sufi mouleds like Abul'l Hagag almost identical to the Opet festival procession in antiquity.

posted 10 May 2004 04:26 PM            

I am just curious are you a linguist?? what makes you an expert? Look by simply talking to an egyptian I can trace most of what I hear to old Arabic I am sure there is many AE words and a simillar dose of Greek but for some reason you are ignoring the greek influence on modern egyptian langauge.

By the way, I raised this issue with many Coptic and they were deeply offended and angry that any one could question there arabic heritage. I really doubt that you ever been to egypt

"A new political part Umm Al Masry is severing the ties with the Arab idenity and reject the notion that Egyptians are Arabs."

So what? I am sure there many people will will have other claims

posted 10 May 2004 04:46 PM            

Perhaps,you should talk to Bayoumi Qandil who has wrote on this subject. He is a trained linguist that disagres with your assertion about modern Egyptian colloquial Arabic. The other person I quoted has wrote about how Saidi Arabic dialect retains much of the syntx and grammar of Sahidic Coptic. Take this up with the following people;not me. Ayazid pointed this out so let Ayazid answer for himself.

You are correct when you say I don't live in Egypt. However,I regularly visit Egypt each year to see my family that lives in Bulaq and in some parts of rural Egypt. I live abroad but my heart it still very much in Egypt.

I have never heard any Coptic while visting Egypt or in the United States ever say that Egyptians should be proud of their Arab heritage. By the way,who made you the spokemen of Egyptian people. Why are you so concerned with how modern Egyptians precieve themselves. Do you have something to politically gain from this perception.

Also,the saints in Egypt have really nothing to do with Islam. When most Saidi in regions like Minya or Luxor converted to Islam most came in the form of Sufism. Sufism is still Islam but much different from Sunni Islam. Your religion does not make you close to any paticular ethnic group except the higher power of creation. You must understand this. Look up Abul'l Hagag which is the oldest masjid in Upper Egypt. Ever wonder why it was built directly on top of the pharoanic monuments in Egypt?

posted 10 May 2004 04:54 PM            

Please what school did an old Fallah or illitrate Saidi go to. You are just can't answer the fact that Egyptians today every where Identify with Arab and muslim figures and you are coming up with rediculous reasons, schools..hmmm give me a break. you simply have no answer and you will never conceed to simple facts. I think you are really going over board when you say that egyptians are identifying with arabic and muslim figure becouse the don't know any better.

"The problem is that Egyptian schools teach nothing about the pharoanic past so most children don't know much about the one great ancient culture. Lots of Egyptians subconsciously pratice many cultural traits that many know very little about their pharoanic origin. Even if many proclaim Arab like some Aswani Egyptians do does not make them akin to Arabs. Many people from Northern Africa to various regions will proclaim they are a Sharifa of the phophet Mohammed without much notice into it actually being a reality."

Arabic tribes have moved to Nubia and the sudan; there many arabic tribes in the sudan that know look completely African. I know lots of family from the Hashimite tribe (prophite Mohammed family) scattered all over the muslim countries from Indonesia, india to Morroco so if some Nubian or sudanese claim that I won't be surprized.

And actually this might be off topic but it is intersting to study the Red Sea connection between Arabia and the African Horn and the linguistic influence but we can leave that to another thread.

posted 10 May 2004 05:16 PM            

And who made you a spoksmen for the egyptian people. I am not a spoke person and No body made me a spoke person. I am concerend about modern egypt because I have interest in egyptian history and I decided to spend all my vaccation in egypt from now on. I have no political gains what so ever. The issue at hand and the name of the thread is "Egyptians are not Arab" The way egyptian percieve themselfs goes to the heart of our discussion after all and Egyptian have the final word on whom they are? what I did quoted egyptian people that I meet every day. You still can't explain why simple egyptian identify with Arab and muslim figure and you are trying to escape that point.

Islam is a big religion with estimates of 1.5 B muslims and there are so many sects so I don't see where did this come into discussion about egyptians being arabs

"Also,the saints in Egypt have really nothing to do with Islam."

A muslim Saint has nothing to do with Islam, OH come one I mean how can you even make such an argument.

"Ever wonder why it was built directly on top of the pharoanic monuments in Egypt?"

Yes the whole luxor temple comples was under sands and actually there was a village built on top of the luxor temple and when it was found, sands and houses were remove, but not the mosque. I guess egyptian have very strong commetment to islam, thanks for bringing up that point

posted 10 May 2004 05:31 PM            

Egyptians living abroad have often complained they must travel to Western countries to learn more about the pharoanic past.

posted 10 May 2004 07:00 PM            

What I mean is, different countries can and do share the same language and similar culture, and even history but have independent identities. For example, Ireland, the US, and Canada were all part of Britain as recently as the past 200 years. All four countries have unique dialects of English, all four have relatively similar cultures, and all share Britain's history. However, Americans are Americans, Canadians are Canadians, and no one dare call an Irish person British. I'm not sure how closely these comparisons relate to Egypt. My only point is that cultural and linguistic affinities do not mean that two different countries share the same identity.