posted 13 December 2003 11:28 AM            

Saturday, 13 5:00 PM Nubia: The Forgotten Kingdom 38 DSC

Thursday, 18 10:00 PM Nubia: The Forgotten Kingdom 38 DSC

Friday, 19 1:00 AM Nubia: The Forgotten Kingdom 38 DSC
www.nubianet.org

The Learning Channel is airing a series this month called "Ancient Egyptians." Here is the schedule for east coast time in the US:

Sunday, 14 3:00 PM Ancient Egyptians: The Battle of Megiddo 39 TLC
Sunday, 14 4:00 PM Ancient Egyptians: Tomb Robbers 39 TLC
Sunday, 14 5:00 PM Ancient Egyptians: The Priests of Amun 39 TLC
Sunday, 14 6:00 PM Ancient Egyptians: The Cult of the Apis Bull 39 TLC

I watched the Battle of Megiddo episode and it seems like this show is a series of dramatizations, not documentaries. They re-enact scenes from the battle quite well.

[This message has been edited by Amun (edited 13 December 2003).]

posted 13 December 2003 11:59 AM            

The importance is to empathize that Nubians during the pre-dyanstic period contributed to the building of ancient Kmt. Often no exploered is how Amun is really a Nubian deity named Amani. This is some of the reason why Gerbal Barkal was built in Napata to symbolize the unity of the Wasetean Amun with the Nubian diety Amani.

A-group Nubian culture in Qustal Sudan is contemporary with early Egyptian cultures like Naquda and show strong reselmblence to each other.

Besides these corrections,I imagine that it was a nice documentary on the lost Nubian cioty called Dangeli that was discovered.

posted 13 December 2003 01:58 PM            

THE CITY OF SHEBA
Although we all today use the popular name of Meroe for the capital of the Kushite kingdom, we are informed by Herodotus that "Meroe" was the name of the Persian conqueror Cambyses's sister, who renamed the city of Sheba in honor of her. (This is not insignificant trivia.)

THE 'MEROITIC' SCRIPT
It should not be a surprise to anyone that the Meroitic language is still not deciphered. European scholars had the same problem with the Egyptian language...Racism. The Ancient Egyptian language is still spoken in Egypt today! But rather than go to this obvious, scientific source, every attempt was made to force it, unsuccessfully, into the Semitic language grouping. Yes, these 'scholars' actually tried to find the key to this language by reference to Hebrew and Arabic, rather than to Egyptian!

THE OBVIOUS AGAIN
If the Wolof language which is spoken on the opposite coast of the African continent from Egypt, is in many instances a purer descendant of Ancient Egyptian than is modern spoken Egyptian, would it not also be a plausible hypothesis to postulate that the Meroitic language is a dialect of Pharaonic Egyptian? I'll wager an arm and maybe a leg that this is what will eventually prove to be the case. You even have 'scholars' who actually write that the Meroitic language isn't related to any other language! There is no language anywhere that isn't genetically related to another language. It will obviously take dedicated African scholarship to rescue this classical language from obscurity.

posted 13 December 2003 05:32 PM            

I'm just happy to see a Sudanese man excavating this site. Hopefully he is not simply a puppet.

The program did not take long to remind me that I was watching the discovery channel though. After it made comparisons between Egypt and "Nubia", the narrator said the "Nubians" were Africans. Which seems to indicate that the Egyptians were not.

posted 13 December 2003 06:16 PM            

Upper Egypt soon grew wealthy and its culture expanded again into Nubia, where renewed southern contacts gave rise to the first of Nubia's trading cultures, called the A-Group. Incense, copper, gold, objects of shell, and semiprecious stones were traded northward in return for manufactured articles and probably agricultural produce.

Most surprising, evidence that early pharaohs ruled in A-Group Nubia was discovered by the Oriental Institute at Qustul, almost at the modern Sudanese border. A cemetery of large tombs contained evidence of wealth and representations of the rulers and their victories. Other representations and monuments could then be identified, and in the process, a lost kingdom, called Ta-Seti or Land of the Bow, was discovered. In fact, the cemetery at Qustul leads directly to the first great royal monuments of Egypt in a progression. Qustul in Nubia could well have been the seat of Egypt's founding dynasty.

Figure 1: The decoration of the Qustul Incense Burner, as restored. A sacrificial procession contains the earliest definite image of a pharaoh with his crown and falcon-label. Oriental Institute Nubian Expedition.
http://www-oi.uchicago.edu/OI/PROJ/NUB/NUBX/NUBX_brochure.html

At the royal cemetery at Qustul near Abu Simbel, one of the main centers of A-Group culture, the rulers are shown wearing the White Crown of Upper Egypt. The elite graves there are long rectangular shafts cut into the bedrock with a side chamber sealed by a big stone slab. Surrounding the graves were cattle burials. A grave similar to this was found in the elite cemetery at Hierakonpolis (HK6, Tomb 2), and it's also surrounded by cattle burials.
A possible explanation for this is that A-Group society was so similar to that in predynastic Upper Egypt that there was a kind of equilibrium between them. These Nubian people were not living in the shade of the predynastic Egyptians, nor were they subservient to them in a colonial way. They had no need to leave their home in order to find food or employment in the big city. Given the growing desire for exotic goods like the obsidian from the temple, A-Group Nubians likely came to Egypt for transactions! http://www.archaeology.org/interactive/hierakonpolis/nubian.html

Know some scholars have pointed out that at times both Nubians and Kemetians had bitter wars with each other. People postulate that because of these wars the two groups must be a seperate ethnic group;however Upper and Lower Egypt often fought long bitter wars with each other,so would we assume that the same is true for the ancient Kemetians? The answer is NO!! At times,both Lower and Upper Egypt fought with the Heru followers representing the South and the Set followers representing the people in Lower Egypt. Even later in dyanstic period the people of Herakloplis in Middle Egypt[modern Beni Suef] fought the rebellious Wasetans[Thebans for the throne of Kmt.

The term Nubian in Egypt never existed and was not used reguarly untill the Greco-Roman period. The word Nbt simply means gold,but does not designate actual ethnic groups of people. In Kemetian litterature such as the famine stela Ta-Seti is called the first of the first denoting the importance of this nome as being the beggining. In the same stela it recounts a story of priests of Khnum in Nubia save the third dyansty Egyptians from drought.

Later during the 6th dyansty,Kemetians start trading with a city called Yam according to the inscriptions of Harkhuf. The inscription also sugests the cheif of Yam is fighting a Tjemah[Libyan],so Harkhuf extends his help to the cheif of Yam helping him smite the Tjeamh. This shows that,despite the unfriendly relations with the Nubians,Harkhuf helped the Nubians out.Later the people of Yam served as mercenaries in Kemetian armies because their skills in warfare was much valued. Yamites also introduced a much more stronger and durable bow to the Kemetian arsenal.

posted 13 December 2003 08:30 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kem-Au:
It does attempt to find out how Dangeli was destroyed. So that could prove to be something interesting. But the group that they suggest could be responsible for sacking the city is a rival kingdom in Ethiopia. So would this war be Nubia vs. Nubia, since the term Nubian applies to any non-Egyptian ancient African civilization?

---

I have never heard that idea floated before. It has always seemed clear to me that while the term 'ethiopian' was loosely used to describe Africans south of Egypt, the term 'Nubian' is specific to an ethnic group of people who live in Egypt and northern Sudan. From what I understand, the Meroite Nubians later became part of the Ethiopian Axumites.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kem-Au:

The program did not take long to remind me that I was watching the discovery channel though. After it made comparisons between Egypt and "Nubia", the narrator said the "Nubians" were Africans. Which seems to indicate that the Egyptians were not.

---

I agree. I noticed that the second time I watched it. I'm not sure who wrote that into the script but it did sound awkward since Egypt is in Africa and Egyptians aren't any less African than Sudanese.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kem-Au:

What's interesting is what the program shows, but doesn't say. The Sudanese workers helping the expedition are virtually indestinguishable from the Upper Egyptian workers who help Egyptologists. I expected them to be much darker in complexion, but they were even similar in that respect. This actually surprised me because I thought I would see a noticable difference between the Sudanese and Upper Egyptans I've seen (scarcely) on tv and on the Net. Forgive me, I'm a slave to my western education.

---

posted 13 December 2003 10:33 PM            

Look at all the different names Kemites had for people who lived south of them:
http://www.sis.gov.eg/nubia/html/nubia5.htm

also, check this out: http://www-oi.uchicago.edu/OI/PROJ/NUB/NUBX92/NUBX92_brochure.html

posted 14 December 2003 09:12 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kem-Au:
"Nubian" does not refer to a specific group. It basically means anyone living south of Egypt, sometimes with the exeption of Punt.

---

I don't know what you mean. While there were various tribes in Sudan which made up the Nubians or Nehesy as the ancient Egyptians called them, they did eventually form their own language, culture, and system of writing. Only the Nubians worshipped Amun, and no other African group that I'm aware of had been able to become Egyptian High Priests of Amun. The name 'Nubian' was applied later by either the Arabs or Greeks to these people who were called Nehesy.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kem-Au:

As far as I'm concerned, the term Nubia refers to no specific people or borders.

---

Well if you believe that then I don't think you read entirely through the links that you provided. I think I understand what you are trying to say but you have to understand that from the New Kingdom until about the 15th century AD, the name "Nubian" came to represent a specific group of African people who descend from the Kushites, and Meroites. The Nubians resisted the Romans and Islamization centuries longer than the Egyptians.

The definition of "Nubia" from www.nubianet.org:

quote:

---

1. Changing Definitions of Nubia

When ethnologists speak of "Nubia," they usually mean only the land occupied by the people who speak dialects of the Nubian language. Nubian-speakers live between Kom Ombo, about 30 miles (50 km) north of Aswan in Egypt, and ed-Debba, Sudan, about 180 miles (300 km) northwest of Khartoum, Sudan. Before the fifteenth century, when the spread of Islam became very widespread in Sudan, Nubian-speaking peoples occupied a much larger area, even including the land southwards up the Blue Nile. Their descendants live there still, but today they speak only Arabic.

For modern historians and archaeologists the term "Nubia" is now used quite broadly to include all of northern Sudan, even the deserts. Indeed, the terms "Nubia" and "Sudan" (north of the equatorial provinces) have almost become synonymous. Popular American usage has carried this a step farther; for many consider the term "Nubian" to be virtually synonymous with "African." http://www.nubianet.org/about/about_people1.html

---

posted 14 December 2003 12:46 PM            

Kemites never used this label for the region. For example, what I got from the first link was that the Medja and the Kushites were distinct peoples. Today, were simply refer to both as Nubian.

posted 14 December 2003 01:13 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kem-Au:

Kemites never used this label for the region. For example, what I got from the first link was that the Medja and the Kushites were distinct peoples. Today, were simply refer to both as Nubian.

Though I could be wrong.

---

There is a distinct Nubian language and culture although many now consider themselves Arabs and don't speak the ancient tongue. I encourage you to visit NubiaNet.org. It's the most informative site on the web about Nubia and one of the site's founders is a Nubian.

posted 14 December 2003 02:05 PM            

During the 6th dyansty a distinct culture called the C-group Nubians formed and also a group possibly related to the Medijay called the Pan-grave culture. Donot confuse these people with Yam or Kerma Nubians. When Harkhuf,an Aswani Egyptian govenor,visits the Yamites he noticed that these people form a confederation in unity. This alarms Harkhuf to tighten up security around this area to avoid attacks.
This is where the confusion probally arises from in investigating the Nubian cultures.

The modern Nubians are also divided into different tribes such as: the Kanuz,Mahas,and the Matoki. Lots of these groups are heavily mixed with foreginers like Albanians,Balkan Eastern Europeans,and Arabs. Some of these groups have chosen to marry excluseivly their cousins so they will remain of pure blood ancestry.

posted 14 December 2003 04:56 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

During the 6th dyansty a distinct culture called the C-group Nubians formed and also a group possibly related to the Medijay called the Pan-grave culture. Donot confuse these people with Yam or Kerma Nubians.

---

I think the confusion comes from the different periods of Nubia. The Yamite Nubians disappeared by the New Kingdom and were replaced by Kerma and Kush. The Nubians are always a confusing subject because so little is known about them outside what other civilizations recorded about them. The ancient Egyptians recorded that there were friendly and enemy tribes of Nubians but unfortunately they didn't name each one.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

The modern Nubians are also divided into different tribes such as: the Kanuz,Mahas,and the Matoki. Lots of these groups are heavily mixed with foreginers like Albanians,Balkan Eastern Europeans,and Arabs. Some of these groups have chosen to marry excluseivly their cousins so they will remain of pure blood ancestry.

---

Part of the reason for the Decline of Nubian culture was the intermarriage with Arab and Turkish men. Nubians traditionally left their wealth and land to their sisters. The children of these Arab-Nubian relationships often identified more with their Arab parent and this led to the decline of Nubian language and culture.

posted 14 December 2003 07:10 PM            

Kerma,Kush,and the Yamites were all the same people. The location of Yam is not known,but by the time Harkhuf it was developed into the urban center of Yam. Possibly it was located in modern Dongola. It is important to read the inscriptions of Harkhuf because this is the first time he mentions them in full detail.

''
The ancient Egyptians recorded that there were friendly and enemy tribes of Nubians but unfortunately they didn't name each one.''

Actually,Kemetians did record many names of indivdual tribes of Nubians. Such as Irem,Wawat,Setjet,Mazoi,Medijay,Yam,and various other names. Each of these groups served in Egyptian armies as mercenaries and were distinguished by their dress. Read the inscriptions of Harkhuf and Weni to find more details.

posted 17 December 2003 08:22 PM            

The Ancient Egyptians wrote their own history, it is enough to consult them;
nub = gold
nubi = gold smith
nubiu = gold workers; gold miners
nubit = golden
This was the gold bearing country of southern Egypt; later mined by the Roman conquerors and called Nubia by them and later on, the Greeks(using the African etymology).
nahas = barbarian; stranger; useless (as in Wolof; it does NOT mean Nubian or Black or African!)
(Black Africans who were not Egyptians were barbarians)
(The Greeks would later take on this conviction that those who were not Greeks were barbarians.)
(To a WaTutsi, anyone not a Tutsi is a barbarian, ad nauseum.)
Panahasi = The Barbarian (A title; ie., you are a Yoruba king ruling in a Hausa state)
TaKhent = Land of the Beginning; the South of Egypt;Nubia was only a tiny portion of this territory (the African continent).
Khentu Hon Nefer = founders of the perfect order. (Peoples to the south of Egypt; the African interior.)
Eau = the old country (The southern regions of Egypt; the African interior.)

Ta Sti; TaSeti; A civilized country to the south of Egypt and not Nubia!
(is it Tah esTEE; TahStee; or TaSetee? Compare the words for 'bow' in Egyptian, Beja, Oromo, Amharic, Wolof, etc., and we would know for sure...or we can always refer to the White Western "experts" who seem to know more about our history than we do.)

posted 18 December 2003 02:16 PM            

Perhaps,they called the land ta-akhu refering to land of the ancestors.

posted 18 December 2003 04:16 PM            

[G40-D21:Z1-N29-G1-N25] = af-ri-q-a = afriqa = Africa.

He translated it to: 'parqa = a district in Syria, situation unknown'!!

We know that Champollion wrongly read the Egyptian (f) as (p) as confirmed by ALL Egyptian Egyptologists and Linguists!

The root word is 'frq' which could mean 'tribes' or 'teams'!

posted 18 December 2003 05:17 PM            

Relevant Ancient Egyptian geographical names:

Afrikau = "the Steaming hills/hot highlands above the Nile river valley."
from: Afri = 'steam; hot vapor and Kau = 'hills or highlands(esp. Egyptian ones above the river)'
Pounit; Pwonit = "Country of the first existence"; East Africa; principally Somali-land. Original homeland of the Shemsu Hor or 'followers of Horus', one of the Ancient Egyptian ruling ethnic-classes. This is the very real ancient country we now call Punt. It is now an official district in Somali-land.
TaNteru = "Land of the Gods; the holy land" - East/Central Africa.
Eau;Iau = "The old country - East/Central Africa
---and as previously mentioned:
TaKhent = "Land of the beginning" - Sudan
Khentu Hon Nefer = "Founders of the perfect order" , i.e., the people of TaKhent - Sudan

posted 19 December 2003 01:11 AM            

'Afro-qos'!!?

posted 19 December 2003 07:18 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kem-Au:
It sounds like both of you are saying that the word is Kemite in origin. If this is true, why did it come into use so late? Just playing a little devils advocate because for years now I've thought the word Africa was named after Scipio Africanus, who died in the 2nd A.D.

It would seem if the word Africa is Kemite in origin, the Greeks should have used it also. Do we have any references of Greeks using this word?

---

Kem-Au,
It appears that it is the opposite. Scipio Africanus was named for defeating Hannibal at Zama (Northern Africa :Present day Tunisia).

"(Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus) (sp´ frk´ns) (KEY) , 236–183 B.C., Roman general, the conqueror of Hannibal in the Punic Wars. He was the son of Publius Cornelius Scipio, and from a very early age he considered himself to have divine inspiration. He was with his father at the Ticino (218), and he survived Cannae (216). The young Scipio was elected (c.211) to the proconsulship in Spain. He conquered New Carthage (Cartagena) almost at once (209) and used the city as his own base; within several years he had conquered Spain. As consul in 205, Scipio wanted to invade Africa, but his jealous enemies in the senate granted him permission to go only as far as Sicily and gave him no army. He trained a volunteer army in Sicily. In 204 he received permission to go to Africa, where he joined his allies the Numidians and fought with success against the Carthaginians. In 202, Hannibal crossed to Africa and tried to make peace, but Scipio’s demands were so extreme that war resulted; Scipio defeated Hannibal at Zama (202), returned home in triumph, and retired from public life. He was named Africanus after the country he conquered."
http://www.bartleby.com/65/sc/ScipAfMjr.html

------------------
Nesu.t-bi.t neb-taui Neb-Maa't-Re sa-Re Amen-hotep

posted 19 December 2003 08:18 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Neb-Ma'at-Re:
Kem-Au,
It appears that it is the opposite. Scipio Africanus was named for defeating Hannibal at Zama (Northern Africa :Present day Tunisia).

---

posted 19 December 2003 03:32 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kem-Au:
you're probably right. i know little about africanus, aside from his victory over carthage. so it sounds like the word africa was used by africans before the romans. thanks guys.

---

Did they africans use the word africa geographically in the same way we do today, or did they use it diffenently? I have heard that sometime ago the middle east was considered part of north africa. I know it is only how we chose to geographically call things, but I want to know what the ancient africans thought.

posted 20 December 2003 01:47 PM            

Note: words inside [ ] are the modern Egyptian equivalents

Probable etymology of the word ‘Africa’:

Afr (adj.) : to be hot

Afri (n.) : heat; steam; smoke; vapor

Ka (adj.) : to be high, elevated

Kaa (n.) – hill, high ground

Kaka (n.) – hill

Kawi (n.) – two very high mountains

Kae; Kai; Kau (n.) – highland – the land high above the surface of the Nile

[ Kaie, Koi]

Afri (becomes a noun-adjective) + K...= Afrikaa/Afrikae/Afrikai/Afrikau/Afrikoi > literally "the Steaming highlands."

Parent and Child languages

We know definitely that Egyptian is an older language than either Greek or Roman. We thus look for the etymology (origin and original meaning) of a word primarily in the older or parent language. For example, we know that the Greeks added an 's' to Egyptian proper nouns:

a) Osiris (the Greek 'child' word) is derived from the Egyptian 'parent' word Osiri (aka-Wosiri,Usiri; Ausar; Asar). From this, we know that Wos/Usar means power and 'iri' means to create, form, produce. Osiri therefore literally means, "Creator of the throne (power; physical and mental strength)." (His name is written with the hieroglyph of the eye (ei, i) which means 'iri' and the hieroglyph of the throne.)

b) Isis (the Greek 'child' word) is derived from the Egyptian word Isi (aka-Si.t, Ese). From this, we know that Isi means Throne or Seat of Power - The African matriarchy expressed ideologically--Osiris as the Creator of Power, his Wife-Sister is Power.

(Her name is written with the hieroglyph of the throne with the determinative of an Egyptian female.)

c) Afrikos (the Greek 'child' word) is derived from the Egyptian Afriko. And we already know what this word means in Egyptian, which increases the probability that this is the origin of the term Africa.

Ancient Egyptian geographical names for African countries:

Note: Sudan probably derives from the Egyptian 'Nsuten'/'Suten' or Southerners, thus Sudan, used here, is not just the territory of present day Sudan but also all areas to the south and southwest of Egypt, including Libya (i.e., 'Sudanic.')

Lebu – Libya

Tehenu – Libya

Nahaste – Africa in general (i.e., "Barbary")

Tanahaste – "Land of the Barbarians" – Africa. (To this very day, virtually every African ethnic group refers to other African ethnic groups as either 'strangers' or 'barbarians.')

Hon Nafre(t) – "The perfect/beautiful Order" – the Sudan (the advanced kingdoms only?)

Khent - "the beginning"; the lands to the south of Egypt.

Sti – "Bow" - the Sudan > TaSti; TaSeti (cradle of Egyptian civilization)

Pounit; Pwonit - "Country of the first existence"; (aka, Punt) East Africa; principally Somali-land.

Kenus – Southern Sudan

Kush – the Kingdom of Kush, Sudan [Ekush]

Sheba/Shaba – "Meroe", a Sudanese kingdom’s capital city. (A province in present day Congo.)

TaNter - "the Land of God"

TaNteru - "the Land of the gods"

posted 20 December 2003 02:23 PM            

Some linguist believe that Sudd refers to the muddy swamp that this later became what the Arabs called Sudan. Sudd was the furthest that Egyptians went into Africa and this was somewhere in Southern Sudan.

You forgot that Tamahou refered to a Libyan tribal group.

posted 20 December 2003 03:12 PM            

I’m not sure any ancient people anywhere, were thinking in terms of continents about their land, such as we do today by splitting the world up into specific land masses. Maybe they had a concept and name for the lands that were known to them, but even in the later Dynasties the extent of the African continent was unknown to them.

I don’t think their would have been a word that represented the nation of Africa as their was never one to have a name. But the suggestions above seem reasonable to give the name a regional meaning. Their are seven possible origins for the name accepted by UNESCO, anyone have a link to them, I can not find it.

I would have to ask however, how their can be so many Egyptian language connectons to the single word Africa? As their roots and structure are different, only one can be correct, I have seen more than another six or so that differ from the suggested ones here.

Nice to see some new interesting topics back on the site.

posted 21 December 2003 04:02 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
''Note: Sudan probably derives from the Egyptian 'Nsuten'/'Suten' or Southerners, thus Sudan, used here, is not just the territory of present day Sudan but also all areas to the south and southwest of Egypt, including Libya (i.e., 'Sudanic.')''

Some linguist believe that Sudd refers to the muddy swamp that this later became what the Arabs called Sudan. Sudd was the furthest that Egyptians went into Africa and this was somewhere in Southern Sudan.

You forgot that Tamahou refered to a Libyan tribal group.

---

posted 21 December 2003 07:18 PM            

I still believe the Arabs refered to Sudan as Sudd meaning blockage or muddy swamp. This is probally inherited from the ancient Kemetians.

Arabs also used the term Zanji to denote blackness also.

Sudd : The name for the large blocks of aquatic vegetation obstructing the channels of the swamps of the White Nile in southern Sudan (and impeding European and Arab penetration) prior to the twentieth century. Sudd was derived from the Arabic word sadd meaning barrier or obstacle. Today it is used to describe the permanent swamp of the Nile or, more loosely, the whole Nile flood-plain, including the seasonal wetlands as well as the permanent swamp. http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/sudan1103/7.htm

'') Tamhou is according to Egyptian records, on their 'mural of the races'; were Europeans. It is also an ethnic term:
Tamh = hematite; reddish
ou = people;ones
"Red people"''

This is incorrect because the Kemetians never came incontact with Northern or Western Europeans. The only Europeans that the Egyptians came incontact with was the Southern Europeans whom they called Hau-Nebu. There is evidence of their first contact with these people around the 18th dyansty. Hau-Nebu refered to Greeks.

The Tamahou are related to the modern ''white'' Berbers that live in Morocco,Algeria,and the modern country of Libya. The Technou were dark-skinned Berbers that live from the Siwi to the Sahara that raided the Egyptians.

Here is some more information about them:

Meshwesh first appeared as kindred tribes of the Tehenu and Temehu, but began to play increasingly substantial roles in the later campaigns. In 1182 BCE, Egypt was under threat from an alliance between the Libyans and the Meshwesh—who possibly also coordinated an attack with the Philistines

Meshwesh are again found in the Classical writings of Herodotus, over a thousand years later. He refers to this group of peoples as the “Maxyes”, and offers the most physical description outside of the pictorial reliefs. Herodotus describes their semi-barbaric hairstyle—consisting of shaving one side of the head while leaving the other—and the fact that they paint their bodies and lay claim to Trojan heritage (Selincourt 1954: 306). He goes on to talk about the land from which they came (eastern Libya), all the while making sure to guard himself by saying that he cannot vouch for any of these statements, he is merely passing along what he himself has heard
http://www.courses.psu.edu/cams/cams400w_aek11/www/meshwesh.htm

This tribe from which the land of Libya takes its name is sometimes called the Labu, Libu, or Rebu, and appears in many Egyptian texts, such as the inscriptions on the temple at Medinet Habu. The earliest of these texts is the Papyrus Anastasi II in Dynasty XVIII and appear in texts, if only rarely, up until Dynasty XXI (Gardiner 1968: 121, 122).

It is unclear for certain where the Labu originated, but they may have originated from west of the region of Libya. It is clear, however, that along with other tribes such as the Meshwesh they replaced the pervious inhabitants of Libya at some time during the New Kingdom (Redford 1992: 247)
. Another theory, though, is that the Libu originated in the Balkans and were driven to migration by the Illyrians, with the Libu finally settling in Libya (Drews 1993: 58).

The Labu are characterized by a number of features when they are depicted in Egyptian reliefs, such as fair skin, red hair, and blue eyes. They also wore ornamental cloaks, had one lock of hair, and were tattooed on their arms and legs. Some of these characteristics the Labu also shared with the Meshwesh, but unlike the Meshwesh the Labu wore kilts instead of loincloths and were uncircumcised (Gardiner 1968: 122). http://www.courses.psu.edu/cams/cams400w_aek11/www/labu.htm

posted 21 December 2003 11:27 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

Wally: Tamhou is according to Egyptian records, on their 'mural of the races'; were Europeans. It is also an ethnic term:
Tamh = hematite; reddish
ou = people;ones
"Red people"''

Ausar: This is incorrect because the Kemetians never came incontact with Northern or Western Europeans. The only Europeans that the Egyptians came incontact with was the Southern Europeans whom they called Hau-Nebu. There is evidence of their first contact with these people around the 18th dyansty. Hau-Nebu refered to Greeks.

The Tamahou are related to the modern ''white'' Berbers that live in Morocco,Algeria,and the modern country of Libya. The Technou were dark-skinned Berbers that live from the Siwi to the Sahara that raided the Egyptians.

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Ausar, I think there's a little confusion as far as Wally's statement about the Tamhou. I don't know what part you are saying is incorrect, but according to Diop (The African Origin of Civilization) Wally is correct about the Tamhou people on the Kemite mural of "races".

Now I don't know what Tamhou means because I only have Budge's dictionary and I don't see it in there. However I can say that Champollion-Figeac also felt that these Tamhou represented the European as he admitted that he was embarrased that his race was represented as the most savage.

posted 22 December 2003 04:24 PM            

Here are some reference sources:
Tamhu: Budge, p837a
Temhu - Libyans
Temhi - a kind of ochre(?)
Tehmit - a goddess of the Red land
Budge uses the term Libyan, but Champollion the Younger, in his 13th letter to his brother, remarking (about certain bas-reliefs
he had seen in various tombs), what I refer to as the 'murals of the races' :
"According to the legend...they (the Ancient Egyptians) wished to represent the
inhabitants of Egypt and those of foreign lands. Thus
we have before our eyes the image of the various races
of man known to the Egyptians... the last one is what
we call flesh-colored, a white skin of the most delicate
shade, a nose straight or slightly arched, blue eyes,
blond or reddish beard, tall stature and very slender,
clad in a hairy ox-skin, a veritable savage... he is
called Tamhou.... I certainly did not expect, on arriving
at Biban-el-Moluk, to find sculptures that could serve
as vignettes of the history of the primitive Europeans,
if ever one has the courage to attempt it. Nevertheless,
there is something flattering and consoling in seeing
them, since they make us appreciate the progress we
have subsequently achieved."
Sudan: the Etymology of this can be traced back through Arabic
Suud (Sooda; Soda; Sud) which means Black (i.e., Negro) - back to the Ancient Egyptian 'Suten' which means 'king' but literally means 'they who are from the south.'
The Arabs called Africa 'Biled as Suud' or 'Country of the Blacks' - Sudan came to mean not only the country of Sudan but the land mass encompassing most of west Africa and the Sahara.
It's etymology is definitely not:
Sudd n.) A floating mass of vegetation that often obstructs navigation in tropical rivers.
Etymology: Arabic, obstruction, sudd, from sadda, to obstruct.

posted 31 December 2003 09:53 AM            

yes i also saw this film, i found it to be very infomative to those of us that usa born and never seeing the black man in all his glory as a teaching tool to the know it alls, and they had to take a back seat for once and listen and learn i loved it and the brother being sudanese was a blessing and when he said that he lived there and played at the foot of that mountain can you imagine how he felt, very proud i'm sure. yes the black women is a glorious creature of god and as you can see always ready to step up to the plate when it was needed.

i love documentary's because i traced my family back to liberia on one of the first slave ships that left the usa and went back to africa and became leaders and teachers and have documents to prove it. so history is important and we should never stop learning or seeking knowledge because we never know where we will find it.

peace,
queen

quote:

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:
I've seen the program, and all I can say is that it was OK. It does attempt to find out how Dangeli was destroyed. So that could prove to be something interesting. But the group that they suggest could be responsible for sacking the city is a rival kingdom in Ethiopia. So would this war be Nubia vs. Nubia, since the term Nubian applies to any non-Egyptian ancient African civilization?

I'm just happy to see a Sudanese man excavating this site. Hopefully he is not simply a puppet.

The program did not take long to remind me that I was watching the discovery channel though. After it made comparisons between Egypt and "Nubia", the narrator said the "Nubians" were Africans. Which seems to indicate that the Egyptians were not.

What's interesting is what the program shows, but doesn't say. The Sudanese workers helping the expedition are virtually indestinguishable from the Upper Egyptian workers who help Egyptologists. I expected them to be much darker in complexion, but they were even similar in that respect. This actually surprised me because I thought I would see a noticable difference between the Sudanese and Upper Egyptans I've seen (scarcely) on tv and on the Net. Forgive me, I'm a slave to my western education.

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posted 08 August 2004 10:59 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:
The Tamahou are related to the modern ''white'' Berbers that live in Morocco,Algeria,and the modern country of Libya.

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Thought Writes:

posted 08 August 2004 11:15 PM            

The problem is that the only Europeans that ancient Kemetians came incontact with were Mediterranean ones from Greece and from Crete. I find it highly unlikely that Kemetians would come in contact with western/northern Europeans.

The Kemetians also show Mitanni people during the Amarna period with blondish hair and blue eyes. These people were from Syria. The Kemetians called Libyans Tamahou and Tehennu and distinguished them with different coloration. Remeber that Kemetians always showed their enemies/foreigners with descrete detail.

The problem with Diop is he wrongly labels the Tamahou as Indo-European when in reality they were Imazigh[Berbers] and donot even speak an Indo-European language.

Thought,I don't know of any Anthropology journals that study Magrebian remains from around this time period. What we have of early remains in the areas show different things according to various reserchers. According to Donald Redford's archaeological investigation there are traces around the New Kingdom period of a group of new settlers in magreb that replace older ones such as the Tehennu. From this time period,Tamhou, are depicted with pale skin,blondish/reddish hair,and a distinctive sidelock.

posted 09 August 2004 01:37 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Amun:
All these different views ancient Nubia raises an interesting question. Should the study of ancient Nubia be considered an extension of Egyptology or should it be something completely seperate like Nubianology?

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some egyptians scholars studied nubia culture,but now nubianology is here and if we are not careful some of them will try to say nubian folks and culture is not really african,and try to steal africa's greatest legacy,but that would be very hard to do because nubia,past and present is so clearly african.modern nubia less so,because other groups live there now with the nubians and many modern nubians have some form of mixture ,but most are still full blooded nubians and all of them say they are african.
let's not forget as well that modern northern sudan today is mostly black arab and other types of arabs,that is why you see alot of northern sudanese that look or almost like modern upper egyptians but not always.northern sudan today is mostly arab,but it was not that way in the past and upper egypt as well.racial,northern sudan looked like the regions of western and central sudan in west and central africa in the past,and central sudan today looks almost more like that today on average.

posted 09 August 2004 09:00 AM            

Why not just history? African history? Nile Valley civilisations?

Pan European Egyptology is riddled with errors born of fundamental conflict of interest.

posted 10 August 2004 12:30 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:
According to Donald Redford's archaeological investigation there are traces around the New Kingdom period of a group of new settlers in magreb that replace older ones such as the Tehennu.

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Thought Writes:

posted 10 August 2004 03:29 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Amun:
Part of the reason for the Decline of Nubian culture was the intermarriage with Arab and Turkish men. Nubians traditionally left their wealth and land to their sisters. The children of these Arab-Nubian relationships often identified more with their Arab parent and this led to the decline of Nubian language and culture.

[This message has been edited by Amun (edited 14 December 2003).]

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posted 10 August 2004 08:05 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:
The Tamahou are related to the modern ''white'' Berbers that live in Morocco,Algeria,and the modern country of Libya.

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

Ausar, what sort of evidence from physical anthropology do you use to make such a connection?

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I'm not sure I understand what is being discussed here?

Whether the Tamahou are Indo-European, as opposed to white Berbers (?) White Berbers would be, by definition predominently Europoid no?

So, are we discussing whether Tamahou spoke and Indo European as opposed to Berber language? ?

posted 10 August 2004 11:31 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
I'm not sure I understand what is being discussed here?

Whether the Tamahou are Indo-European, as opposed to white Berbers (?) White Berbers would be, by definition predominently Europoid no?

So, are we discussing whether Tamahou spoke and Indo European as opposed to Berber language? ?

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 10 August 2004).]

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Thought Writes:

posted 11 August 2004 05:56 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:
Thought,when the Arabs invaded Magreb they drove the Berbers[Imazghen] further southward and in the mountains. The problem with the hypothesis that ''white'' Berbers are the result of white slave trade is that only rural Berbers have a very light complexion. The Libyans on the reliefs in AE are shown with white skin and reddish hair well before any slave trade. I'm not saying these people existed in Neolithic times but it's evident they are documented after the Middle Kingdom in AE.

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posted 11 August 2004 02:36 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:
Thought,when the Arabs invaded Magreb they drove the Berbers[Imazghen] further southward and in the mountains.

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Thought Writes: