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Ancient Egypt and Egyptology How to stop whitewash of Ancient Egypt and other myths? (Page 2)
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sunstorm2004 Member Posts: 67 |
posted 24 June 2004 04:10 PM
Neo-Geo wrote: >>Egypt is a major part of the study of African history but for too many black Americans, it's the only part they know. << "It's the only part they know?" Hmmph. Yet another idiotic blanket statement about AfroAmericans. Seems every dullard thinks they know the sum total of AfroAmericans. Most without personally knowing a *single* AfroAmerican. And then they wonder why it's so important among us to "set the record straight." Why should this discussion become a referendum on AfroAmericans' African studies anyway? The talk here is about Ancient Egypt because the *title of the forum* is *Ancient Egypt and Egyptology*, not The African Studies Forum. Neo, what qualifies you to *stand in judgement* of *any* aspect of AfroAmerican culture? Are you that great?? I suggest you find someone else's back to mount, if you need to boost your stature so badly. (...& no -- there's no way in HELL I'm buying that you're black, let alone African-American; I can tell not just by the arguments you make, but also by the way you make them.) [This message has been edited by sunstorm2004 (edited 24 June 2004).] IP: Logged |
rasol Member Posts: 227 |
posted 24 June 2004 04:41 PM
Lol. Neo's seething hatred for the ethnic group he calls "black American" is clearly the most important part of his argument, as he returns to it, and expounds ad nauseum on it, even when politely asked to stick to the topic of AE. In this respect, his comments may be the most misplaced (on this forum) of all. IP: Logged |
homeylu Member Posts: 333 |
posted 24 June 2004 05:11 PM
As I said in another thread, there is history in other parts of Africa long ignored by anthropologists. But if you want to read an excellent book by an "Afrocentric" author, I suggest "Pre-colonial Africa" by C.A. Diop. As the hundreds of books out there about African History by Eurocentric authors only concentrate on "Colonial" Africa. Again, we must stop allowing other to give "our history" from "their perspective". Too many non Afrocentric authors of African History are "prejudiced" in that they give the perception that Africa was not even "civilized" until Colonialism, which is far from being accurate. Originally posted by Ausur Poor example, first off Japan was NEVER colonized by any western civilization. In fact Japan went out and colonized Korea and parts of China. And we do know that China did have a great ancient civilization. Secondly, don't believe for one second the accomplishments of most African Americans is due to their study of AE societies. Nothing could be further from reality. So don't get it twisted. My great great grandfather is founders of one of the most prominent African American churches in the south, and he started it right on a slave plantation under a Pine tree. The church has historically been the source of economic, political, and social progress for millions of African Americans. Its has been the foundation of the civil rights movement and several other revolutions in the Black Community. Almost all of the Historical Black Colleges and Universities that have trained today Black Doctors, Lawyers, Judges, Mayors, Scientists, you name it were affilliated with a Church or othe Philanthropist. And trust me when I say they didnt know a damn thing about Black Ancient Egypt, and I doubt that it would have made any significant difference. Besides being a major tourist attraction, what has Egyptians contributed lately in any significant fashion. There are many technologies that Americans have long taken for granted that have been invented by African American Inventors. So I suggest anyone that feels we "need" AE to "progress" I suggest you rethink that argument. As most only study AE to gain a new perspective on Ancient Black History, in the same sense that European Americans study Ancient Greek History. ANd I definitely don't believe Henry Ford needed the Ancient Greeks to build up the confidence to build cars. And African Americans dont need confidence from the Ancient Egyptians. IP: Logged |
Wally Member Posts: 244 |
posted 24 June 2004 06:23 PM
quote: Welcome back... The etymologies of both Eurocentrism and Afrocentrism is ethnocentrism - "belief in the superiority of one's own ethnic group" (American Heritage Dictionary - Third Edition). However one chooses to define these terms, their basic motives are clear. There is nothing in your preceding statement which would indicate that you are expressing a belief in the superiority of Africans. There is also nothing in the writings of Diop which expresses such an ideology. The choice of the term 'Afrocentrism'(1966) to express these views is, in my opinion, "ill advised." You can see the ease of those, who concretely or intuitively know what the term implies, use this to attack valid evidence which they do not wish to accept. It's an easy target. African Americans, as subjective as this may sound, have been and remain a vanguard group (to which Thabo Mbeki had to be reminded)in the struggle to restore and transform the African world. You are certainly aware of those naive people who think that our fascination with Egypto-Nubian civilization is based upon simple and romantic notions of 'a glorious past.' They don't seem to realize that we look at Egypto-Nubian civilization in the same manner that medieval Europeans looked to their Greco-Roman heritage, and we see the results of that European Rebirth and Renaissance before our very eyes. That is precisely why we place great emphasis on our own classical heritage. We learn from history (our own and that of others). You are certainly intelligent and erudite, if you had to use a term to express this ideology, would you have chosen "Afrocentrism?" I rather doubt it. I think Professor C.A. Diop would more correctly be identified as an Africanist - "A specialist in African affairs, cultures, or languages." (Ibid) [This message has been edited by Wally (edited 24 June 2004).] IP: Logged |
ausar Moderator Posts: 2060 |
posted 24 June 2004 07:24 PM
My statement was not meant as a comparison and contrast in attaching racial achievements. My personal philsophy is not to look at history as a means of ethnic arrogance but to look at it's lesson it serves a person. Certainly a person can find ethnic idenity from one's cultural history that holds one toghter. We are certainly proud of what our ancestors might have achieved but the problem I see in north America people place too much emphasis on personal pedigree of the past instead of achievement in the future.
I have personally studied about other areas of Africa from various sources of scholars. One particular author I enjoyed was Basil Davidson. He provided a wonderful overview in his book Pre-Colonial Western Africa. I ewould highly recommend his books. BTW,I just found out that many African Americans have Tuareg ancestry meaning that some of my mother's people might have been taken on those slave boats also. IP: Logged |
homeylu Member Posts: 333 |
posted 24 June 2004 09:53 PM
Originally posted by Wally Welcome back... Thank you :-) There is nothing in your preceding statement which would indicate that you are expressing a belief in the superiority of Africans. There is also nothing in the writings of Diop which expresses such an ideology. You are correct, however I will not engage in wordplay, as I don't define Afrocentric as considering my study of history from an African standpoint to suggest "superiority". To your last statement, I consider myself extremely "Afrocentric". My home library is filled with "Afrocentric" books. My walls are covered with "Afrocentric" art, from African American Artists, my shelves are covered with "Afrocentric" sculptures from Kenya and Ghana. I have 2 beautiful kids, with "Afrocentric" names, Nzhinga, and Menelik, named after "African" king and queen, they both can give anyone the names of several African Kings and Queens and tell you their accomplishments. I have a dog named Shaka, pillows made of Kente cloth..........and so on.. I think you get the point. In other words I will not allow any negative stigma placed on the fact that I "embrace" my history and the culture of my far ancestors from "their" perspective, to insinuate that it makes me "racists". Nothing can be more absurd!! I have no interest in the history of the Kings and Queens or people of England, France, Japan, China, or India. My only historical interest is that of Black African Culture, and that alone makes me "Afrocentric" without all the wordplay Originally posted by Ausur Exactly! And when I study history of Africans, I study the "accomplishments" as well as the "pitfalls". As I am fully aware that African nations engaged in wars with eachother, as well and European Nations engaging in wars with their neighbors. History is what it is, I just don't appreaciate the historical "lies". IP: Logged |
Keino Member Posts: 262 |
posted 24 June 2004 10:28 PM
quote: A "centrism" is a term used to mean superiority. So when the term "afrocentrism" is coined, it literally means one whom thinks anything african is superior. The same goes for "eurocentrism" which means that anything european is superior. Ethnocentrism or an ethnocentric person is one who thinks that his/her culture/ethnicity is superior to all others. Neither is positive homelyu. When it come to Eurocentrism, and its truly a centrism, they inconspicuously deem Egypt to be superior and Europe to be superior, hence Egypt must be European or white. To say you don't take it to mean its real definition is not wise and is equivelent to the word games some play today when "black" or African does not mean black or african. Lets get it right and strive for scientific and language correctness otherwise our ranting and factual information means nothing. Keep in mind that its only through word play and change in definition that AE is no longer black! No disrespect intended! [This message has been edited by Keino (edited 24 June 2004).] IP: Logged |
supercar Member Posts: 449 |
posted 25 June 2004 02:42 AM
quote: I agree with Homeylu in one aspect, and Keino in another. Here is the deal: Homeylu is correct when she says that she is a proud "Afrocentric", when you look at it from her standpoint. The meaning of the word from this standpoint, is that she wants to focus on black or African related issues. I don't think most blacks think of themselves 'superior' to other races. This is where the confusion lies when it comes to the perceptions of "Eurocentrics" and "Afrocentrics". Eurocentrics tend to view themselves as "superior" to other races, while Afrocentrics tend to view themselves as victims of underrepresentation, and want to promote black related issues. I agree with Keino, in that, the "centrism" gives the impression of one's superiority over another. Hence the misconception of the term "Afrocentrism", and the tendency of some to shy away from it. But we shouldn't be confused about the standpoints of Eurocentrics and that of Afrocentrics. I think Homeylu's earlier comment about her definition of the term, makes that clear. The problem is that many tend to focus on the word itself, rather than looking deeper into the standpoint of Afrocentrics. But hey people, like Sunstorm stated earlier, we are wandering way off the topic here. We should relate to "Ancient Egypt" and not black American studies. If we were talking about myths of Afrocentric views of AE, then that would relate more to the AE discussion than the above discussion. IP: Logged |
homeylu Member Posts: 333 |
posted 25 June 2004 10:36 AM
No the problem is too many of you are "re-defining" the word, but since people here always tend to rely on references, I'll provide a few 1.Afrocentic-Centered or focused on Africa or African peoples, especially in relation to historical or cultural influence: “a string of small black-owned art galleries in Los Angeles's Afrocentric cultural 2. Afrocentric-centered on or derived from Africa or the Africans 3. Afrocentric-Centered or focused on Africa or African peoples, especially in relation to historical or cultural influence 4. Afrocentric-centered on Africa or on African-derived cultures, as those of Brazil, Cuba, and Haiti And yes my dear there is word-play, as "ethnocentric" and "afrocentric" are too entirely different words with different meanings, and yet you're trying to connect the too. And if you know anything about basic english, you would know adding the root "ism" only changes the adjective to a noun. It DOES NOT change its entire meaning. As long as one would speak about "Afrocentric" art, no one would ever suggest any "superiority" at play, but it appears that when relating this mindset to "AE" culture Afrocentrism seems to suggests superiority. In which case the same word is being redifined by a select group of critics, and many of you have fallen victim to the redefinition and have allowed yourselves to disassociate from the "true" meaning!! IP: Logged |
rasol Member Posts: 227 |
posted 25 June 2004 10:56 AM
Interesting conversation. I'm not an etymologist. Just from a practical point of view I can see both sides of the equation. In most cases a negative conotation is indeed associated with anything affixed with 'centric; centric usually implies unhealthy focus or obsession. ex: egocentric, ethnocentric. However centric itself simply means "centered on", and oddly its antithesis would seem to be eccentric (not being properly centered on) and can also be implied as a negative. Moreover, there are any number of applications of the term, which are not "assumed" to imply negative or unhealthy focus: So Geocentric for example; as if observed from the earth's center, doesn't in any way imply disrespect for Martains. [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 25 June 2004).] IP: Logged |
neo*geo Member Posts: 295 |
posted 25 June 2004 11:22 AM
I am interested in African history but I don't want to associate with the word centric. It has a negative connotation because it usually implies superiority over others. IP: Logged |
homeylu Member Posts: 333 |
posted 25 June 2004 12:05 PM
well low and behold "afrocentric" art needs to find a new name to describe it, maybe "African Inspired" art, because lawd we wouldn't want to offend our dear old white counterparts and suggest that our art is in anyway "superior" to theirs. I mean after all that's what its about right, being "politically correct". Give me a break! IP: Logged |
homeylu Member Posts: 333 |
posted 25 June 2004 12:31 PM
And since we're playing word games, lets remove "centric" from ego , and add "tistic", then we have the "negative" words egotistic. The root word "centric" does not suggest superiority unless you "imply" it does, how about: I'm Black, and Afrocentric, and so the hell what if anyone has a problem with it. I will not hide from my own identity. IP: Logged |
Keino Member Posts: 262 |
posted 25 June 2004 12:43 PM
quote: Respect! I feel you! IP: Logged |
neo*geo Member Posts: 295 |
posted 25 June 2004 12:46 PM
How about ethnocentric, egocentric, Eurocentric, etc. . Wouldn't you agree that those titles attach a negative connotation to the word? It somewhat implies self-centeredness. Well call me PC but I am not about being self-centered or proving my superiority over others. I tend to be more moderate rather than "in your face" when approaching historical debates. IP: Logged |
homeylu Member Posts: 333 |
posted 25 June 2004 01:58 PM
Originally posted by Neo*geo I tend to be more moderate rather than "in your face" when approaching historical debates. In my case, extreme measures call for extreme responses. Therefore I will not approach these issues "moderately". As anyone that knows me personally will assure you that this sister doesnt "tip-toe" around any issue! Nothing like a good ole "slap in the face" reality check. Do you know that white supremacist refer to these "light skinned" arabs as "sand niggers". You are aware that several million "light skinned" jews were persecuted for not being "white enough". I think everyone in this thread except you in your (imaginary world) understands that Ancient and modern Egyptians would be considered "niggers" from a white supremacy standpoint, and the concept of a "black supremacy" movement surrounding "afrocentrism" is purely "imaginary" and "exaggerated", as No Blacks are plotting to "exterminate" anyone not deemed "black enough". [This message has been edited by homeylu (edited 25 June 2004).] IP: Logged |
rasol Member Posts: 227 |
posted 25 June 2004 02:12 PM
quote: I don't want to deflate your proud assessment of your own etiquette, but being "in our face" via redundant, outrageous, repetitive and fallacious comment....is the only thing you've got going for you here. You offer no facts, answer no questions, and spend much of your time engaging in personal attacks or personal pleading. If that isn't IN YOUR FACE, then I don't know what is. [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 25 June 2004).] IP: Logged |
supercar Member Posts: 449 |
posted 25 June 2004 06:31 PM
quote: Look, what you said about the definition of Afrocentric, is the true definition. But people tend to look at words differently. If you recall my earlier comment, I mentioned that there is no comparison between "Eurocentrics" and "Afrocentrics". They have totally different agenda, and backgrounds. Frankly, I am surprised at those black folks who don't know any better when they make this comparison. Whoever does this, is really self-deluded. Like I said, often black people who shy away from calling themselves Afrocenctric, do so because they don't want their credibility questioned, by being percieved as (one person put it) 'self-centered'. Again, I agree with you that the word is wrongly viewed. As I stated earlier, people should look at Afrocentrism closely from it's standpoint, and not just react to how the terminology sounds! In response to an earlier comment about the need for black Americans to extend the same attention to other African History as they do AE , I just want to say that I am in no way implying that black Americans don't know other African History. It's hard to place the same focus on other African History and I know reason for this. AE is the only African history that white folks have attempted to claim as their own, and as such, their will be debates resulting in more attention being placed on AE. Nevertheless, blacks shouldn't allow this to reduce their attention to other African or black history. Having said that, it doesn't mean that when we focus on AE here, we are not paying attention other black or African history. After all, the topic here is AE and Egyptology!
[This message has been edited by supercar (edited 25 June 2004).] IP: Logged |
rasol Member Posts: 227 |
posted 25 June 2004 07:24 PM
quote: Truth. Kemetian culture though unprecedented for its time, is in some ways primitive and even appalling compared to later African cultures that were more egalitarian and humane. However.....Kemet is rightly cited by Diop as being critical to the issue of reclaiming Africa's history, since it cuts to the central issue of how and why Africa's history, and its role in history was usurped to begin with. Perhaps someone can source a quote for me (i don't remember off hand): "Blacks are removed from Egypt, Egypt from Africa, and Africa from World History" (you think it doesn't occur to Eurocentrists that the great West African Islamic Empires can be reduced to the status of Arab, & hence Medit. colonies?) [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 25 June 2004).] IP: Logged |
homeylu Member Posts: 333 |
posted 25 June 2004 07:32 PM
Originally posted by Supercar AE is the only African history that white folks have attempted to claim as their own, and as such, their will be debates resulting in more attention being placed on AE. You must not have read Neo*geo's comment about the Jews and Arabs being responsible for the Kingdoms of Mali and Zimbabwe, and I've even heard it suggested, though not in this forum, that the Arabs are responsible for the civilization of Aksum. Now I dont know about you, but I and sick and tired of hearing that all these people had to come all the way to Africa to create civilizations that don't exist in their own freaking countries. When all of us should know that group A Nubian civilization "succeeds" Egyptian and Mesapotamia by at least a few centuries, and it has been proven by scientific evidence courtesy of the Oriental Insititute of Chicago. Supercar you can't imagine how angry this Wester hipocrasy gets me. IP: Logged |
Wally Member Posts: 244 |
posted 25 June 2004 07:39 PM
There is no doubt that the term "Afrocentric" will remain to express a valid ideology. The only point that I tried to make is that it was coined to be, I suppose, the counter-attack on 'Eurocentrism'; which one would hardly expect a Western authored dictionary to define as 'the view that things European are superior to things non-European' but rather euphemistically call it; 'things viewed from the European-centered perspective.' Yeah, right. I'm merely saying that the choice of the term 'Afrocentrism' was extremely politically naive. It has nothing at all to do with the fundamental ideology of which it is supposed to identify. IP: Logged |
homeylu Member Posts: 333 |
posted 25 June 2004 08:10 PM
I feel you Wally, you know that I have always shared your views for the most part, its just that "Afrocentrism" is only criticized with relation to AE, otherwise its viewed as an acceptable concept. It seems to suggest that we have no business trying to claim anything to do with Ancient Egyptian society, since the world knows AE was an advanced civilization that is responsible for much of todays culture, and none of these critics want to credit any of that to the Black race. Now why couldnt Imhotep the true "Father of Medicine" (as opposed to Hippocrates 2,000 years later)and world's first known genius have been a brother? How many hollywood movies we have to see that depict not one single Black leading cast member(unless you want to consider The Rock, a brother-lol). These are extreme measures that require extreme responses. And I'll be damned if I'm about to began "pacifying" these critics. IP: Logged |
rasol Member Posts: 227 |
posted 25 June 2004 09:03 PM
homeylu, i'd never thought about that before. interesting argument. IP: Logged |
supercar Member Posts: 449 |
posted 25 June 2004 09:28 PM
quote: Indeed this is a new one on me! But I am not surprised. That is the central issue with the AE debate: AE is just one example that shows black people have been civilized even before the European race woke up from the "Dark ages" to eventually colonize the world. Perhaps Egypt and other developing nations would be totally different places today, if it weren't for colonization. These imperialists then have the nerve to say "what would have happened if we didn't colonize you?" Tell me, what has colonialism brought to countries, apart from more misery. The real aim of colonizers is to subjugate and divide people to plunder their resources. It's not about contribution towards advancement. It actually has an opposite effect. Just look at developing countries in Latin America, Africa, and Asia. If any of these countries are doing better than others, it's purely because of the relative freedom it's people have to better themselves. Even in this case, the credit goes to the hard work of the people, not the invaders or colonizers. In Egypts case, Arab and European conquest has not really benefited the Egyptian masses. Instead of advancing from the remarkable AE civilization, Egypt has become a victim of "backward" Arab culture forcibly imposed on them! IP: Logged |
ausar Moderator Posts: 2060 |
posted 25 June 2004 10:11 PM
supercar said:
quote: Because current archaeologist have found no complex civlization that goes back in the sugested range of 15,000-10,000 from which people claim the sphinx was built in. Plus what communities existed were simple agritcultural coomunities around Nabta Playa and Kom Ombo. I am certainly open to the possiblity of such occurence but it does not seem proable from the current archaeological records.
onology places ancient Kemetian soceity back to over 100,000 years! Certainly this is not a logical time frame based on current records. We have texts like the Turin Papyrus and _Palermo Stone that speak of AE soceity during the pre-dyanastic era where so-called mythilogical kings ruled over Egypt. The kings might have existed but I am skeptical about the claim of Egypt being over 100,000 years according to Manetho or the Turin papyrus. rasol said:
quote: I believe it was Jacob Caruthers who made this statement in Intellectual Warfare. Maulana Karenga also made similar statements. rasol said:
quote: This is very true and not even restricted to the Islamic Kingdoms within Western Africa. Scholars used to claim that the Benin bronze sculptures in Nigeria was the product of Greeks that fled into Western Africa. Leo Frosbenius made this claim in his various books he wrote on Africa. The other problem is that when many western African converted to Islam they tried to connected their older history to an Arab founder to legitmize themselves. This occured with the Songhai people,Kanem_Borno,and others who made these claims. Early French scholars tried to claim Jews founded ancient Ghana but fell into trouble when most could not explain the fact ancient Ghana was martilineal like traditional Africans and not patriarhical. Ancient Egypt has also been used as a diffuisionist tool by racist scholars. This is discussed in the book Egypt in Africa by David O'Connor.
quote: The complexity within the Sahel did not come from Berbers or Arabs but from Djenne in Mali . In the early 80's Susan Mcintosh at Rice Univerity found the oldest western African urgabnized center,Djenne-Djemo which existed many 100 of years prior to contact with Arabs across the Sahara through the Gold trade.
Homeylu said:
quote:
[QUOTEI feel you Wally, you know that I have always shared your views for the most part, its just that "Afrocentrism" is only criticized with relation to AE, otherwise its viewed as an acceptable concept. It seems to suggest that we have no business trying to claim anything to do with Ancient Egyptian society, since the world knows AE was an advanced civilization that is responsible for much of todays culture,][/QUOTE]
homeylu said:
This is true but you can't depend upon other races to depict your heroes or history for you. People are going to produce or direct what sells. What not form your own production company to counter the misconceptions you feel are out there in the mainstream.
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supercar Member Posts: 449 |
posted 25 June 2004 10:42 PM
Hearing all this just makes me furious. It doesn't end with AE, but extends to other African cultures. What makes me even more furious, is the idea that in some cases, Africans have assisted these whitewashers in lies about their own culture. Those Africans who connected their culture to the Arabs and not taking the full credit due, don't they realize that they are giving a hand to people who would later on claim that they aren't civilized enough to handle their own business? It is people like them, who give a bad name to their fellow citizens. Blacks and Africans should take their heritage seriously, and do everything to make sure the truth persists. IP: Logged |
ausar Moderator Posts: 2060 |
posted 25 June 2004 10:52 PM
supercar,the Africans made these claims before contact with Europeans. Europeans later just took them and ran with them to play diffusionist . IP: Logged |
supercar Member Posts: 449 |
posted 25 June 2004 11:59 PM
quote: Precisely my point! Those Africans shouldn't have made those claims even to the Arabs to begin with, just so the Arabs could have a favorable view of them and to prove how Islamic they were. Naturally, as soon as European historians learnt about this, they used it against Africans to play diffusionist (As you put it). IP: Logged |
homeylu Member Posts: 333 |
posted 26 June 2004 12:45 AM
Originally posted by Ausur Well,actually Indus Valley suceedes both Mesopotamian and Egyptian civ. I try to keep up with the latest findings so this may be something that has passed me but when I speak of advanced civilization I'm speaking of evidence of "kingdoms", and I haven't seen any recent evidence to suggest the Indus Valley Civilization with a timeline earlier than 3000-2500 BC. which is alongside Mesopatamia and Egypt, if you have recent evidence that suggests a different timeline, please provide me with a source. Now from the timeline I'm familiar with is the following: 3800-3100 BC- Ancient A group Kingdoms Now with the discovery of the L-cemetary at Qustal currently makes Nubia home of the oldest Royal tombs in the world (to date).If you know of older royal tombs please direct me to the source. Now if you are suggesting civilization based simply on agricultural societies then we still know Africans were cultivating land while much of Europe and Asia was hunting and gathering during the Ice Ages. IP: Logged |
homeylu Member Posts: 333 |
posted 26 June 2004 01:12 AM
Originally posted by Supercar Perhaps Egypt and other developing nations would be totally different places today, if it weren't for colonization. These imperialists then have the nerve to say "what would have happened if we didn't colonize you?" Tell me, what has colonialism brought to countries, apart from more misery. The real aim of colonizers is to subjugate and divide people to plunder their resources. It's not about contribution towards advancement. It actually has an opposite effect. I share your sentiments brother! Rise up! IP: Logged |
supercar Member Posts: 449 |
posted 26 June 2004 01:46 AM
I often see people compare Ancient Egyptian Civilization to that of Mesopotamia. Now, I am not trying diminish the Mesopotamian civilization and the idea that it developed indepedently, but I doubt it compares to that of AE. I mean look at all the accomplishments made in Egypt during those dynastic times. Discoveries are still being made, and the conclusion of history concerning those ancient times is yet to be written. But, if I were to hold true the timeline Homeylu provided, it seems like civilization in Egypt still predates that of Mesopotamia. By the way, was the Mesopotamian civilization taken to a dynastic level like AE? I heard here several times that Nubian civilization succeeds that of AE. But I think that is a bit misleading, because I read here and there, that they too had a kingdom(s), in which they developed the concept of Pharaoh, and making little tombs for them to rest after death, in which they would place artifacts. It is believed that they were the ones who influenced the upper Egyptians to eventually adapt that method of rule. Indeed new discoveries are beginning to suggest that some pyramids in the Lower Nubian region could well predate the ones in Egypt. I don't know how much of this information is accurate. [This message has been edited by supercar (edited 26 June 2004).] IP: Logged |
homeylu Member Posts: 333 |
posted 26 June 2004 02:43 AM
Supercar, this is not misleading information, this is factual. The A group Nubians disappeared around the same time dynastic Egypt was beginning. Coincedence? The oldest known pre-dynastic king of Egypt was called the Scorpion King, and although the King of the A-group Nubians evidence shows that he existed before the Scorpion King. It is no mere coincident that the incense burned depicted this King wearing the crown of the Falcon god Horus, who later became important in Dynastic Egypt. And to date, I welcome anyone to correct me with more recent evidence, this is still the oldest Royal tomb in the world. Which clearly indicates proto-saharans developed the first known kingdoms in the world.(not counting chiefdoms). Dr. Williams(who studied the artifacts) even suggested that there were symbols on pottery that resembled hieroglyphics. Another coincidence- on the Egyptian pottery of Naquadah I, you find more advance pottery, with pictures of animals like "ostriches" that can be found no where in Egypt, however "ostriches" are found in Nubia, and Nubian pottery also had ostriches, and they even decorated Ostrich Eggs. Also the tombs were not as advanced until this period. Some have even suggested that the Gerzeans are but an extension of the A-group people, but not many are willing to actually confirm this of course not wanting I think we know what time it is, the Nubians definitely played a role in advances leading up to dynastic Egypt. IP: Logged |
supercar Member Posts: 449 |
posted 26 June 2004 02:56 AM
quote: When you say "this is not misleading information, this is factual.", can you specify what is not misleading? I am assuming you are talking about Nubian civilization as succeeding that of AE. I am not sure I got this straight, but are you suggesting that perhaps this A group king of Nubia, somehow became a ruler in Egypt or found his way into Egypt to become an important figure...can you please clarify? I would like to add that, when I said that the Egyptians borrowed the Pharaonic system from A-group Nubia, I mean it in the true sense of the word. In fact, recent archeological evidence by the Oriental Institute supports this view. Here is a link that will give you some details on that: http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/PROJ/NUB/NUBX/NUBX_fig1.html You'll notice that this image from the first link I provided supports what you said about the A-group Nubian King, i.e, the incense burner images. [This message has been edited by supercar (edited 26 June 2004).] IP: Logged |
ausar Moderator Posts: 2060 |
posted 26 June 2004 03:17 AM
According to what I have read A-group Nubia disappeared around the 4th dyansty. According to the Palermoi stone Snefru raided the early A-group Nubians taking cattle and people as captive. However,I believe that the Palermo Stone might be mistranslated.
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ausar Moderator Posts: 2060 |
posted 26 June 2004 03:24 AM
http://www.archaeology.org/online/features/neolithic/
____Here are some interesting websites I found about possibly older civlization than Egypt. Recently they think they have found an older civlization than Mesopotamia in Iran. IP: Logged |
supercar Member Posts: 449 |
posted 26 June 2004 03:26 AM
quote: It seems that your view of when the A-group ended conflicts with that of Homeylu. You said that the A-group Nubia disappeared around the 4th dynasty, whereas Homeylu states that it was about the beginning of pre-dynastic Egypt. IP: Logged |
supercar Member Posts: 449 |
posted 26 June 2004 03:33 AM
quote: For me, it's not the question of whether AE is the oldest or one of the oldest civilizations, but how advanced of a civilization are these other civilizations, given the time frame of AE. Have they reached dynastic levels or a complex nation state level earlier than AE or after it had occured in Egypt? This is question! The links you've put here, provide interesting reading. Once again, it's the matter of how advanced of a society these civilizations were. Otherwise, there were also other African cultures that may well predate AE based on agriculture, advanced burial practices, pottery, metals and so forth. This discovery in Iran is in its infant stage, only time will tell how advanced of a society it was. Until then, it safe to say that AE was more sophisticated than the Mesopotamian civilization! [This message has been edited by supercar (edited 26 June 2004).] IP: Logged |
cassia Member Posts: 82 |
posted 26 June 2004 05:11 AM
I'm almost afraid to jump in here, and I'm not going to quote books at you ... Predynastic Lower Egyptians were a little different than Upper Egyptians in ethnicity, culture, etc. That's a given. See, even if the blonde Egyptians (who I point out are numerous enough to be considered a group unto themselves) are but another anomoly from another short lived incursion ... if you give it time and if the blonde Egyptians breed back into non-blonde Egyptian stock, their genes will quickly become recessive, and in a very few generations, blonde Egyptians will again be as rare as white tigers. Masalam IP: Logged |
supercar Member Posts: 449 |
posted 26 June 2004 07:04 AM
quote: Cassia, I can see why you were nervous to jump in here, and without references. First of all, it is because this is the wrong topic for this thread (try the Egyptian Litmus Test2 thread), and second of all, much of what you said has been proven wrong, unless you can back it up with solid evidence. Having said that, let me disect your analysis of AE. Were the lower Egyptians ethnically different from those in the South? Yes. But you have to understand there were still some black (though not many) Egyptians in lower Egypt, alongside the non-black ones (usually referred to as the Mediterranean type). Did the Upper and lower Egyptians intermingle in the region in between them? Your third point would be reasonably correct. Your fourth point, I guess it is reasonably possible, but you must bear in mind, that most Egyptian royalties at that time had a tradition of marrying family members. Sometimes, Pharaohs married their sibling and started their own families. Weird? But true. And even later, foreign rulers adopted the same tradition. So I doubt foreign princesses would have had much of an impact on the population, unless they were married to their sibling (a foreign Pharaoh). Your last point about Egyptian blonds would be incorrect. There aren't that many Egyptian blonds. The rare ones in Egypt today are decendants of Europeans, perhaps French settlers. They make up a very tiny part of the population. If you want to refute my analysis, feel free to do so. But next time, please do so with references on your sources. Actually, I take back what I said earlier about your comment being in the wrong thread. The reason is that some of your comments are myths, that would qualify them for discussion under this thread! [This message has been edited by supercar (edited 26 June 2004).] IP: Logged |
homeylu Member Posts: 333 |
posted 26 June 2004 08:02 AM
Originally posted by Ausur Here are some interesting websites I found about possibly older civlization than Egypt I'm sorry Ausur but I can't lend any credence whatsoever to "working hypothesis" being passed off as scientific evidence. This link is just that. And I quote from the site "Since very little remains of these monuments, we must try to "imagine" them at the time of their splendor. " "Imaginary" theories don't work for me. Just some typical Eurocentric non-sense trying to find a civilization in France superior to Africa's. Another quote from the site Originally posted by Supercar My references come directly from the source of Nubia's excavations- The Oriental Institute of Chicago-headed by Dr. Williams, I dont know if Ausur got his references from a less reliable third party source. According to my source, the A-group existed between 3800-3100 B.C. and completely disappeared. The C-group didnt appear until 2300 BC. during the 6th dynasty, so there is no way it could be a continuation of the A-group with a 1200 year gap! Quoted directly from Dr. Williams of the Oriental Institute So clearly he feels there is enough evidence to suggest that the A-group Nubians could be the founders of Egypt's first dynasty. And he also states that Nubia was unquestionably a Black culture. This explains why the stone head found near Narmer's tomb was unquestionably "negro" yet earlier archaeologist were hesitant to exclaim that it was "unquestionably Namer", go figure. I mean come on who else was of enough importance to have a collosal head near a Pharoah's tomb. And people naively believe that no conspiracy ever existed to rob Blacks of AE. Give me a break. Anta Diop had already written that it was Nubia where the plants and animals found in the hieroglyphics- that were NOT found in Egypt, and he also explained why the Pharoahs always face south to their origins. Which is also why on Wally's site the bas-relief shows the Egyptian identifying himself racially with the nubians (other Africans). Photograph suggested as Menes/Narmer IP: Logged |
supercar Member Posts: 449 |
posted 26 June 2004 08:28 AM
Posted by Homeylu: My references come directly from the source of Nubia's excavations- The Oriental Institute of Chicago-headed by Dr. Williams, I dont know if Ausur got his references from a less reliable third party source. According to my source, the A-group existed between 3800-3100 B.C. and completely disappeared. The C-group didnt appear until 2300 BC. during the 6th dynasty, so there is no way it could be a continuation of the A-group with a 1200 year gap! Posted by Homeylu: So clearly he feels there is enough evidence to suggest that the A-group Nubians could be the founders of Egypt's first dynasty. And he also states that Nubia was unquestionably a Black culture. Your reference happens to be the same link I provided earlier, right after our exchange. But I know you had this reference before I posted it, because you mentioned the incense burner with the image of the A-Group Nubian Pharaoh! You anticipated by question, when you answered where the A-Group had gone. I was going to ask how it became possible for the A-Group to completely disappear! Sound's like a pretty credible reference to me. However, you still haven't answered my previous question to you. This was: when said, " this is not misleading information, it is factual", what were you referring to? Are you referring to Nubian civilization as having "succeeded" the AE? [This message has been edited by supercar (edited 26 June 2004).] IP: Logged |
ausar Moderator Posts: 2060 |
posted 26 June 2004 10:29 AM
cassia said:
quote:
later generations,but you will be hell bent to show me how blonde hair can evovle naturally anywhere the temparture in historical times was past 67 degrees.
Most Fellahin in the Delta are not fair skinned but many have light complexions with course hair texture. I know a girl personally from Zagazig who has this. She is a fallaha.
Your point about inscurions is valid and these probabaly had a big effect on the eastern Delta where many Libyan[Berber] mercenaries settled. In this same place today you can see this effect. Ramese II was probabaly one of these people.
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rasol Member Posts: 227 |
posted 26 June 2004 10:35 AM
quote: ...and which is why the rhetorical question asked by someone earlier about that bas-relief as to why Kemetians never refered to "Nubians" as Kememu is tautological...such a "Nubian" IS effectively a Kemetian. Otherwise how would you know? The writing associated with the pic. is the only basis for distinguishing between the two to begin with. Also following from this is the tactic of claiming that the picture is really two "nubians", and so on.... Biased Egyptologists play a game of "paper, rock, scissors" on this point, and the intellectual dishonesty is simply astounding. If it reaches a point where it is no longer even remotely possible to deny that Narmer was Black African.....they will simply suggest that he is "Nubian" and therefore 'not'Egyptian. For the most biased of them, there is an unwritten, semi-unconscious rule -> Egypt must never be Black African, evidence be damned. [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 26 June 2004).] IP: Logged |
ausar Moderator Posts: 2060 |
posted 26 June 2004 11:37 AM
quote: What you don't know is Willams is a third part source as is most scholars. Willams got his excavation knowleadge from Keith C. Steele who excavated the area around the 1970's finding the incense burner.
Anyway, my information comes from the Egyptian history book the Palermo Stone which documents a raid into the vacinity of Lower Nubia carrying off captives and cattle. Ossama Alsaadawi,a fellow Egyptian, pointed out that the western Egyptologist have wrongly translated the raid as some war upon Nubians by Egyptians. What we see is the product of 19th century scholars trying to take a pusedo-white Egyptians in racial wars with the black Nubians. Look in the previous archives for the information.
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homeylu Member Posts: 333 |
posted 26 June 2004 12:03 PM
Originally posted by Supercar However, you still haven't answered my previous question to you. This was: when said, " this is not misleading information, it is factual", what were you referring to? Are you referring to Nubian civilization as having "succeeded" the AE? Actually that should have read "preceeded", thanks for pointing out the error, because thats clearly what I meant, by dating the Kingdom 3800-3100 BC, "pryor" to the first Egyptian dynasty of 3100 B.C. Also the incense burner leads us to conclude that the Nubian A. group and the Upper Egyptians are undoubtedly the same people. And this pharoah wearing the Horus crown is none other than Narmer himself. C.A. Diop even interprets the Narmer tablets differently than what was generally accepted in the scientific community, years before Dr. Williams announced this theory. Diop in "African origin of civilization" p.78-79 writesL: Herodotus even writes in "The Histories" that Egypt was clearly a colonized country..colonized by the Ethiopians.(what the Greeks called the Nubians). Hence the First Dynasty of Egypt is clearly Nubian orginated, and the Nubians and Upper Egyptians are obviously one and the same. Originally posted by Rasol So either way its a losing battle for these critics, don't you think? IP: Logged |
homeylu Member Posts: 333 |
posted 26 June 2004 12:39 PM
Originally poster by Ausur What you don't know is Willams is a third part source as is most scholars. Willams got his excavation knowleadge from Keith C. Steele who excavated the area around the 1970's finding the incense burner. Keith Steele came to the same conclusions as Williams. These Nubian artifact were locked away, until Williams decided to study them and bring "new light" to the Nubian artificacts. And he is not a "third party" in the sense that he had possession of the artifacts and was able to accurately date them, rather than "hypothesize" their dates. As was done with the Palermo Stone. The A-group had long disappeared before the 4th dynasty and the reign of Sneferu. Even if their were Nubian Captives during this period, this in no way proves these were the A-group Nubians, as this advanced civilization was no longer evident anywhere throughout the Nubia area by the time of the 1st Dynasty. Archaeological evidence had already showed that the A-group kingdom showed a Sharp decline, and lower Nubia went back to chiefdoms. Therefore that hypothesis can not be validated as nothing more than "imaginitive". IP: Logged |
supercar Member Posts: 449 |
posted 26 June 2004 12:51 PM
quote: Thanks for pointing out where the confusion lies. It seems that you and Ausur are finally on the same page. I think in his own way, he is stating that you were correct. The whole point of AE studies is about 'pride' in one's heritage. It also allows us to make the point that blacks were already civilized without European influence or whites for that matter. Whether or not there were civilizations popping up in other parts of the world, doesn't change this fact. Nor does it also change the fact that some foundations of European science and philosophy originated in Africa. IP: Logged |
supercar Member Posts: 449 |
posted 26 June 2004 01:14 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by homeylu: Originally poster by Ausur [b]What you don't know is Willams is a third part source as is most scholars. Willams got his excavation knowleadge from Keith C. Steele who excavated the area around the 1970's finding the incense burner. Homeylu replied: Keith Steele came to the same conclusions as Williams. These Nubian artifact were locked away, until Williams decided to study them and bring "new light" to the Nubian artificacts. And he is not a "third party" in the sense that he had possession of the artifacts and was able to accurately date them, rather than "hypothesize" their dates. As was done with the Palermo Stone. The A-group had long disappeared before the 4th dynasty and the reign of Sneferu. Even if their were Nubian Captives during this period, this in no way proves these were the A-group Nubians, as this advanced civilization was no longer evident anywhere throughout the Nubia area by the time of the 1st Dynasty. Archaeological evidence had already showed that the A-group kingdom showed a Sharp decline, and lower Nubia went back to chiefdoms. Therefore that hypothesis can not be validated as nothing more than "imaginitive".
[This message has been edited by supercar (edited 26 June 2004).] IP: Logged |
cassia Member Posts: 82 |
posted 26 June 2004 01:30 PM
Aw Supercar, how can you say "this is the wrong topic for this thread"? When you opened the topic, your very first post read "... the race issue repeatedly presents itself ... when you apply 'phenotype' to this culture, the question of what constitutes being 'black' becomes a drawn out discussion. Some will say that it is simply about 'skin color', and others will say that it is about 'features'. It is well known, even in Africa, that black people come with various facial features, and not simply the stereotypical features. So to even suggest that the someone with a so-called Caucasoid bone structure or facial feature automatically renders him/her 'white' is not only absurd but non-scientific. Equally absurd is the idea that because someone is dark in skin color makes him/her a 'Negro/black' by default ... ." So the premise for the discussion was ... "what is to be done to stop this degradation and whitewash of a great 'African' civilization." Regardless, over 50% of the subsequent posts continued to be discussions about AE genetic roots. Rebuttal, Point 1 You write that "(I) seem to imply that there was some open land between them, until land began to be distributed. This would not be true. There were populations already along the Delta, part of small kingdoms or communities in that region. If you wanted to study this progression further, the best site I've found at a glance is: http://www.searchanddiscovery.com/documents/cairo/images/cairo_sml.pdf Nekhet Kemet! IP: Logged |
homeylu Member Posts: 333 |
posted 26 June 2004 01:35 PM
Supercar I agree with your assessment, and I'd also like to point out that we have to keep in mind that 1: Most of the answers to Nubia's history is literally underwater, and 2. There has been "very little" excavations in Nubia period. This is where I hope, as many of you do, that some Black Scientists will get the funds and overcome political obstacles to explore these ignored areas of Nubia. I find it interesting that Europeans can gain the funds to dive to the bottom of the ocean to obtain artifacts from the Titanic, but we can't get anyone to go to the bottom of a man-made lake in hopes of bringing some new light to Nubian culture. That aside, there are remains of pre-kerma settlements in upper-egypt that have been carbon-dated to 4800 B.C. and is essentially remained ignored. There could still be evidence of a Pharonic period yet to be uncovered in this area. And since many of these excavations have been funded by University research teams, it should not be farfetched, that Howard University or Morehouse, would eventually join these ranks and encourage some excavations themselves. These are the 2 historical Black Colleges that I know for a fact receive a lot of private donations from the likes of Bill Cosby, and Spike Lee. I would love to see something like this occur. IP: Logged |
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