posted 15 December 2004 12:16 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:
Greece has been diverse since the early Neolithic period. In fact, the Greek Neolithic was introduced from the Levant by populations that had physical affinities with modern East African groups.

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Thought Posts:

Journal Of Human Evolution
#1
1972
J. Lawrence Angel
"Biological Relations of Egyptian and Eastern Mediterranean Populations during Pre-dynastic and Dynastic Times"

posted 15 December 2004 12:20 AM            

Thought Writes:

What scientific study are you basing this wild claim on?

{Egyptians get mistaken for people of other ethnicities often. You can't say the same for Greek people}

Thought Writes:

Are we discussing ANCIENT Egyptians and Greeks or MODERN Egyptians and Greeks?

posted 15 December 2004 12:39 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
{Greece doesn't compare to Egypt in terms of phenotypical diversity. Where it's clear from the inconsistency of phenotypes in Egypt that the population has been affected by centuries of foeirn immigration, there is more consistency in Greece.}

Thought Writes:

What scientific study are you basing this wild claim on?

{Egyptians get mistaken for people of other ethnicities often. You can't say the same for Greek people}

Thought Writes:

Are we discussing ANCIENT Egyptians and Greeks or MODERN Egyptians and Greeks?

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Good questions, which I am sure we will be getting answers to shortly.

posted 15 December 2004 12:42 AM            

=============================

"The formerly unknown history of the indigenous civilizations
of Africa to the south of the Sahara has been given its due
place side by side with the other regional civilizations. In 1927,
the year in which I started making my notes for the first ten
volumes of the book, it was supposed that Tropical and
Southern Africa had been a region that had had no history
before the arrival of the Arabs and the West Europeans ..."

===============================

I own the revised abridgement and as hinted above with the phrase
south of the Sahara he still didnt think of Egypt in terms of any black
contribution. He gives no clear cut list of civs by race but mentions
whites as creators of over half the worlds civs. Then he mentions
yellow civ. AE is one of his five unaffiliated civs. Thus AE is not
affiliated to even African civ less lone to black cultures. He sees
AE as having a dominant minority and a proletariat but leaves
it to the reader to assume what they were.

posted 15 December 2004 01:00 AM            

The problem is these texts are not easily avaiable in most laymen's libraries,and so old myths about the continent of Africa continue to plague academia.

Since 1975 many new discoveries were made in the continent of Africa including areas south of Egypt. The findings of Djenne in Sahelian Africa and the work of Felix Chambi putting away the myth of Arab foundations of Swahili culture.

How Egypt[Kmt] plays into this is that it was used as a diffusionist tool by academics to sweep up any high culture they found within Africa. Basil Davidson in his books makes this comment about how diffusionist work and still try to rob Africa of it's cultural history. Even using other African civlizations such as Egypt[Kmt] to do this. The essay in the Ancient Egypt in Africa book explains how Europeans founder sophisticated civilizations in Uganda but invented a myth of a great white founder. The Hamitic myth was also used in other parts of Africa notably upon the Yoruba people. Yes, the historians said the Yoruba people started off as Hamites but began to misegenate with imaginary ''negriod'' slaves. This is all nonsense,but I bet many of these old books are still to be found on college library shelves.

posted 16 December 2004 08:46 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by neo*geo:
I don't buy the African colonization theory for ancient Greece and neither does most of academia. Greece doesn't compare to Egypt in terms of phenotypical diversity. Where it's clear from the inconsistency of phenotypes in Egypt that the population has been affected by centuries of foeirn immigration, there is more consistency in Greece. Egyptians get mistaken for people of other ethnicities often. You can't say the same for Greek people.

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Wow...so you don't believe in what the Ancient Greeks themselves attested too...which was that Aethiopes played an active role in establishing their civilisation (the ancient model)??

posted 02 January 2005 09:55 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by neo*geo:
My point is that there is no point in history where Africans called themselves "black people" prior to encounters with white Europeans.

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alTakruri wrote

This is a mistaken notion. African self definition into a
two coloured scheme of red and black is an old thing
not introduced by anyone from anywhere else. It originally
did not include whites but later, once they were encountered,
whites were sometimes added to the red class or else a new
category of white was made for them.

In first appears in writing in Kmt where Nile Valley folk
RM RMT & NHSW are classed together as blacks
apposed to Libyan TMHW & Asiatic AAMW who are
classed together as reds. The Axumites record their
conflict in Meroe against the Red Noba and the Black
Noba.

Across the Red Sea in Arabia the distinction between
reds and blacks continues today and is noted in a 1200
year old essay by al Jahiz.

Further south, in East Africa, Byrk noted the red/black
distinction among the Nandi when he queried a youth
about a pretty girl standing nearby. He was told: “Don't
you see that I'm red and she's black?”

In southern Africa the baNtu see themselves as black
the Khoi, San, & Twa as red, whom they call the little red
men .

Then in the western Sudan, Maurs, Tuareg, Bela, & Fulani
are the reds among the other Africans living there who call
them red.

It is only unfamiliarity wuth Africa on its own terms that allows
colour consciousness to be beyond the internal cognizant
ability of Africans. What whites introduced to the world is the
idea of a natural hierarchy of inferior and superior races by
colour.

posted 08 January 2005 01:54 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ABAZA:

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Thanks for your post. Have to strongly disagree with you. I'm Yoruba from Nigeria and therefore a descendant of Ancient Egyptians. I'm surrounded by daily reminders in my language and traditional customs. Same goes for most peoples of West Africa.

Examples of AE survivals in Yoruba:

Yoruba.......AE
======.......==
Inoki........Noki-t "fabulous beast"
A-gu-ta(n)...Ha-khu-ptah
O-ni.........Au-nu "Crocodile"
Saluga.......Salug "god of wealth"
ibatan.......Bahtan "compatriot"
amon.........amon "to hide/concealed"
Wu...........Uu "swell"
Miri.........Miri "water" dazzle(of water)
Riri.........Ririt "dirty (like a hippo)"
Ade..........Ade-f "crown/plumes"
Ako..........Ak "male"
Abo..........Ab "female"
Ala..........Ala "boundary - Obatala==King of Nile"
A-ke.........qe-h "axe"
a-dua........dua or tua "prayer"
a-ru-gbo.....ru-ba "evening of ba i.e. later stage of life"
Sadu.........Zaddu "abode of the dead"
I-re.........Re "That whis is good, goodness"
Ko...........Qo-t "build"
Wombia.......nubia "you, a Nubian" - derogatory - "a covetous person"

Note:
=====
(O-ni is pronouced with an 'Or' sound)
The sacred animal of the city of On (Aunu) survives in the word O-ni, "crocodile", a name used as the title of the paramount King in Yorubaland, i.e., the Oni of Ife.

The Yoruba phrase "apa amu sua", which means "an unthrifty person" is derived from three AE words:

Apa - "he who belongs to the house i.e. servant"

Amu - one of the Asiatic tribes engaged in domestic service in Ancient Egypt

Sua (Sua-nit), a nome in AE. The phrase is a comtemptuous term which preserves the idea of the wastefulness of foreign domestic servants in AE who hardly knew the value of crockery and other articles they sometimes smashed to pieces.

The word "bu" in AE means "place". This word survives in Yoruba vocabulary:

"ki bu e e" means "what place are you going?"

"ibudo" means "a place to settle"

"ibusun" means "a place to sleep"

"ibu-joko" means "a place to sit"

"ibu-so" means "a station"

"a-bu-le" means "premises"

The connection bewteen the two languages is so close that it is quite possible for one to help in determining the siginifcance of words whose meanings have not yet been definitely ascertained or have become obscure in the other!

There is a survival of customs
==============================
- Religious beliefs. Most of the prinicpal gods are well known: Osiris, Isis, Horus, Shu, Sut, Thoth, Kepera, Amon, Anu, Khonsu, Khnum, Khopri, Hathor, Sokaris, Ra, Seb, the 4 elmental deities etc.

-- Ra survives in name only, but the words Irawo (star), rara (swear by Ra), rara (dwarfs - AE mythological Danga dwarfs that hailed the daily arrival of the sun-god) preserve the idea.

-- The idea of a future life and that of judgement after death
-- The deification of Kings.
-- The importance attached to names. A man's name is supposed to have a real force in determining his character. Names are not given haphazardly, but acording to prevailing circumstances at the time of birth.
-- Strong belief in a future life. The AE and Yoruba ideas are identical. The Yoruba word for the verb "too die" is Ku, i.e. to become a luminous spirit. The Egyptian word Khu, or the luminous part of a man, "is a spark of that divine intelligence which pervades the world and to which it must return"

- Polygamy - similarity in the position of the first wife and her rights and privileges

- Burial customs. Previous to burial the corpse in Yorubaland is dressed like the Egyptian mummy. In the case of the burial of the king, the king slaves must be buried with him, and his Chief Officers and wives must die on the day of the burial. The king will require the services of his dependents in the next world. The British influence has put an end to such practices. Ushebti figures are now substitued for living persons.

[This message has been edited by Ade (edited 08 January 2005).]

[This message has been edited by Ade (edited 08 January 2005).]

posted 08 January 2005 02:15 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ABAZA:

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-Herodotus (484 - 425 B.C.) sees the differences in human phenotype as a result
of adaptation to differing environments.

History clearly reveals Herodotus labelng black-skinned people as "Aethiopian"
or "Ethiopian", which means "burnt-faced" in Greek. He often made of descriptions
about other peoples as in the case with the Colchis:

"There can be no doubt that the Colchians are an Egyptian race. Before I heard any
mention of the fact from others, I had remarked it myself. After the thought
had struck me, I made inquiries on the subject both in Colchis and in Egypt, and
I found that the Colchians had a more distinct recollection of the Egyptians,
than the Egyptians had of them. Still the Egyptians said that they believed the
Colchians to be descended from the army of Sesostris. My own conjectures were
founded, first, on the fact that they are black-skinned and have woolly hair,
which certainly amounts to but little, since several other nations are so too; but
further and more especially, on the circumstance that the Colchians, the Egyptians,
and the Ethiopians, are the only nations who have practised circumcision
from the earliest times. The Phoenicians and the Syrians of Palestine themselves
confess that they learnt the custom of the Egyptians..."
[Herodotus, Book 3]

-Aristotle (384-322 B.C.): "Historia Animalium" describes similarities between
man, apes, and monkeys, as related to the great chain of being. Like Herodotus,
Aristotle argued for environmental causes of variation. For example, he concluded
that the hot, dry climate caused the hair of Aethiopians (Africans) to be
wooly, while the moist air climate caused the hair of to be straight.

posted 08 January 2005 02:23 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
Ade: Thank you. Good post. Do you recommend any books/reference for study of Yoruban relationship with Kemet?

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Thanks rasol, glad you like the post.

I recommend:

"Religions in West Africa and Ancient Egypt" by J. O. Lucas

"The Religion of the Yorubas" by J. Olumide Lucas ISBN 0-9638787-8-6

Dr. Lucas was Yoruba.

posted 08 January 2005 03:10 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ade:
[B] Thanks for your post. Have to strongly disagree with you. I'm Yoruba from Nigeria and therefore a descendant of Ancient Egyptians. I'm surrounded by daily reminders in my language and traditional customs. Same goes for most peoples of West Africa.

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Should have mentioned similarities in works of art. Disregard the dates given for the objects - accurate dating has not been established for these pieces.

The first ruler of Ife was from Egypt, he founded the Yoruba and neighboring language groups.

http://www.numibia.net/fiche_objet.asp?p_N_ordre=8
http://sorrel.humboldt.edu/~rwj1/AFR/afr882.html
http://www.kimbellart.org/database/index.cfm?detail=yes&ID=AP%201994.04
http://baobab.harvard.edu/narratives/ife/Brass%20Casting.html
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/ifet/hd_ifet.htm
http://www.africans-art.com/index.php3?action=page&id_art=28340
http://www.smb.spk-berlin.de/mv/afrika/e/kunst1g.htm
http://www.louisville.edu/a-s/finearts/VRC/images/1115196.jpg
http://baobab.harvard.edu/narratives/ife/Portrait%20Heads.html

[This message has been edited by Ade (edited 08 January 2005).]

posted 09 January 2005 07:03 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ade:
Thanks for your post. Have to strongly disagree with you. I'm Yoruba from Nigeria and therefore a descendant of Ancient Egyptians. I'm surrounded by daily reminders in my language and traditional customs. Same goes for most peoples of West Africa.

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Links to research material on the origins of peoples of southern Nigeria:

"The original collective names for the ancestors of the Ijos were “Kumoni” and “Oru”, survivals of the ancient terms of “Khem-Anu” or “Khem-Onu”, and “Horu” of the ancient Nile valley civilisations of Khem or Kemetu (ancient Egypt) and Kush (ancient Sudan). The Kumoni-oru derived from ancient Egypt via Ife, while the Oru derived from ancient Sudan."
http://www.ijaw-naa.org/ijaw/home.htm

"For our research topic we have singled out four distinct ancient peoples whose names have come down to us through tradition, who combined and came together in various ways to give birth to the kingdoms of Southern Nigeria. These ancient people have been identified as:

1. The ORU or KUMONI (also known as the ONU or ANU people) they were an aquatic based culture, settling the banks of rivers and watersides. They were indigenous to the Nile Valley and Lake Chad regions before moving south (an exhaustive comparison between the ancient religious and cultural system of the twin Nile-Valley civilisations of Egypt and Sudan, plus language studies enables us to conclude that the ANU or ONU were ethnically the same as the ORU.

2. The IGBO or UGBO (also known as OOYELAGBO) a branch of the Kwa, they were land based. They were originally situated in East Africa, before migrating to the north of the Niger/Benue confluence region in antiquity.

3. The EFA, they were also land based. The EFA & IGBO seem to have descended from a people once known as the KWA or KWARA people, who inhabited the Middle Niger/Benue confluence region (hence its original name of Kwara river).

4. The BANTU & SEMI BANTU of unknown names, from east and central Africa."
http://www.greentax.net/nigeria/history.html

posted 11 January 2005 10:31 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ade:
Should have mentioned similarities in works of art. Disregard the dates given for the objects - accurate dating has not been established for these pieces.

The first ruler of Ife was from Egypt, he founded the Yoruba and neighboring language groups.

great links!
http://www.numibia.net/fiche_objet.asp?p_N_ordre=8
http://sorrel.humboldt.edu/~rwj1/AFR/afr882.html
http://www.kimbellart.org/database/index.cfm?detail=yes&ID=AP%201994.04
http://baobab.harvard.edu/narratives/ife/Brass%20Casting.html
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/ifet/hd_ifet.htm
http://www.africans-art.com/index.php3?action=page&id_art=28340
http://www.smb.spk-berlin.de/mv/afrika/e/kunst1g.htm
http://www.louisville.edu/a-s/finearts/VRC/images/1115196.jpg
http://baobab.harvard.edu/narratives/ife/Portrait%20Heads.html

[This message has been edited by Ade (edited 08 January 2005).]

[This message has been edited by Ade (edited 09 January 2005).]

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