posted 19 February 2005 09:20 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
No, it's of Balkan European origin -> E-M78-alpha. The source of the parent haplogroup 25,000 years ago is as irrelevant as it is for parent haplogroup M89 45,000 years ago.

---

Thought Writes:

The point is NO E3b lineages made its way from Sub-Saharan Africa into Europe or the Near East before the Holocene.

posted 20 February 2005 08:28 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

The point is NO E3b lineages made its way from Sub-Saharan Africa into Europe or the Near East before the Holocene.

---

Incorrect. E3b lineages had already reached North Africa by the Upper Paleolithic (Late Pleistocene), which is when they began spreading to the Near East:

"(1) The E3b1-M78 and E3b3-M123 lineages, as well as the R1*-M173 lineages, mark gene flow between Egypt and the Levant during the Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic." (Luis et al. 2004, Am J Hum Genet)

posted 20 February 2005 10:47 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
Incorrect. E3b lineages had already reached North Africa by the Upper Paleolithic (Late Pleistocene), which is when they began spreading to the Near East:

---

Thought Writes:

The Holocene/Pleistocene transition is marked by the end of the Last Glacial Maximum. In a archaeological sense this period is characterized by the Mesolithic “Broad Spectrum Revolution”.

Underhill et al.
2001

“As mentioned before in relation to African NRY history, a Mesolithic population carrying Group III lineages with the M35/215 mutation expanded northwards from Sub-Saharan to north Africa and the Levant. The Levantine population of farmers that dispersed into Europe during and after the Neolithic carried these African Group III M35/215 lineages…”

Cruciani et al.
2004

“On the basis of these data, we suggest that (E3b) cluster delta was involved in a first dispersal or dispersals of E-M78 chromosomes from EASTERN AFRICA into Northern Africa and the Near East. Time-of-divergence estimates for E-M78 delta chromosomes suggest a relatively great antiquity (14.7 ky)…”

Thought Writes:

posted 20 February 2005 11:20 AM            

It is just undiscovered yet.

Other circumstancial evidence:

http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publicatio...04_v12_p855.pdf

"Some authors consider that, at least in part, this NorthWest African influence was a consequence of prehistoric links between Iberians and NorthWest Africans. As such, the coincident dispersion of Northwest African Y-Chromosomes in Northern and Southern parts of Iberia is a matter that needs further consideration."

and

http://www.geocities.com/vetinarilord/atlan.pdf

"It has been pointed out that one of the most important demic influences on northwest African populations from the sahara occurred around 7,000 years ago, with the expansion of the neolithic culture that flourished at that time in the sahara (Dutour et al., 1994). If we admit that this expansion brought, for the first time, sub-saharan African haplotypes into the Maghreb, it seems plausible that they could also have reached the Iberian Peninsula across the Gibraltar Strait, meaning that the L haplotypes detected in southern Portugal could be the result of African neolithic influence in the region. The presence of U6 only in the northern Iberian Peninsula could represent the remnants of a pre-neolthic expansion from Northwest Africa"

In addition, there is current data on YHRD that shows an E3b haplotype that yields a similar Iberian/Swedish population signature as Haplogroup V.

posted 20 February 2005 11:27 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rossi:
I am of the opinion that there was an isolated Upper Paleolthic Y chromosome E3b signature in Europe much like the mtDNA Haplogroup V signature as illustrated on this site:
http://www.mcdonald.cam.ac.uk/genetics/labpubs.html

It is just undiscovered yet.

Other circumstancial evidence:

http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publicatio...04_v12_p855.pdf

"Some authors consider that, at least in part, this NorthWest African influence was a consequence of prehistoric links between Iberians and NorthWest Africans. As such, the coincident dispersion of Northwest African Y-Chromosomes in Northern and Southern parts of Iberia is a matter that needs further consideration."

and

http://www.geocities.com/vetinarilord/atlan.pdf

"It has been pointed out that one of the most important demic influences on northwest African populations from the sahara occurred around 7,000 years ago, with the expansion of the neolithic culture that flourished at that time in the sahara (Dutour et al., 1994). If we admit that this expansion brought, for the first time, sub-saharan African haplotypes into the Maghreb, it seems plausible that they could also have reached the Iberian Peninsula across the Gibraltar Strait, meaning that the L haplotypes detected in southern Portugal could be the result of African neolithic influence in the region. The presence of U6 only in the northern Iberian Peninsula could represent the remnants of a pre-neolthic expansion from Northwest Africa"

In addition, there is current data on YHRD that shows an E3b haplotype that yields a similar Iberian/Swedish population signature as Haplogroup V.

[This message has been edited by Rossi (edited 20 February 2005).]

---

Thought Writes:

Hi Rossi,

Your theory may be possible, but as you suggested no E3b cluster has been found that fits this theory to date. E3b clearly originated in Sub-Saharan Africa. The Maghreb and Sub-Saharan Africa were virtually cut off from one another during the Last Glacial Maximum (20,000 ky to 13,000 ky). Hence any pread of E3b from Sub-Saharan Africa to the Maghreb would have to pre-date the LGM. The window of possibility for your theory is very narrow. No genetic data to date supports this theory. But again, many things are possible.

posted 20 February 2005 12:10 PM            

quote:Originally posted by Rossi:
I am of the opinion that there was an isolated Upper Paleolthic Y chromosome E3b signature in Europe much like the mtDNA Haplogroup V signature as illustrated on this site:
http://www.mcdonald.cam.ac.uk/genetics/labpubs.html

It is just undiscovered yet.

Other circumstancial evidence:

http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publicatio...04_v12_p855.pdf

"Some authors consider that, at least in part, this NorthWest African influence was a consequence of prehistoric links between Iberians and NorthWest Africans. As such, the coincident dispersion of Northwest African Y-Chromosomes in Northern and Southern parts of Iberia is a matter that needs further consideration."

and

http://www.geocities.com/vetinarilord/atlan.pdf

"It has been pointed out that one of the most important demic influences on northwest African populations from the sahara occurred around 7,000 years ago, with the expansion of the neolithic culture that flourished at that time in the sahara (Dutour et al., 1994). If we admit that this expansion brought, for the first time, sub-saharan African haplotypes into the Maghreb, it seems plausible that they could also have reached the Iberian Peninsula across the Gibraltar Strait, meaning that the L haplotypes detected in southern Portugal could be the result of African neolithic influence in the region. The presence of U6 only in the northern Iberian Peninsula could represent the remnants of a pre-neolthic expansion from Northwest Africa"

In addition, there is current data on YHRD that shows an E3b haplotype that yields a similar Iberian/Swedish population signature as Haplogroup V.

[This message has been edited by Rossi (edited 20 February 2005).]

Thought Writes:

Hi Rossi,

Your theory may be possible, but as you suggested no E3b cluster has been found that fits this theory to date. E3b clearly originated in Sub-Saharan Africa. The Maghreb and Sub-Saharan Africa were virtually cut off from one another during the Last Glacial Maximum (20,000 ky to 13,000 ky). Hence any pread of E3b from Sub-Saharan Africa to the Maghreb would have to pre-date the LGM. The window of possibility for your theory is very narrow. No genetic data to date supports this theory. But again, many things are possible.

posted 20 February 2005 01:15 PM            

the M81 mutation arose within North Africa and expanded along with the Neolithic population INTO an environment containing FEW Humans Arredi et al.
2004

Cruciani et al concluded that the distribution of the E3b1-alpha cluster in Europe indicates a Neolithic or post-Neolithic expansion out of the Balkans into Europe that spread as far west as the Iberian peninsula, and southeast to Turkey. STR diversity analysis gives an estimate of about 8 thousand years ago for that expansion. The cluster may have been part of a pre-Neolithic group indigenous to the Balkans, or it may have "leap-frogged" from Anatolia, to the Balkans, and then into Europe. The alpha cluster signature makes it possible to distinguish the E3b1 that expanded out of the Balkans from other E3b1's that came to Europe from the Near East
E3b2 is also seen in Iberia - perhaps as a result of the centuries of Islamic domination of much of the Iberian peninsula - http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~dgarvey/DNA/hg/YCC_E3b.html

posted 20 February 2005 02:05 PM            

quote:

---

The Maghreb and Sub-Saharan Africa were virtually cut off from one another during the Last Glacial Maximum (20,000 ky to 13,000 ky).

---

Thought, are you saying that you believe there were no humans in Northwest Africa during LGM...or at least no Sub-Saharan people. Wouldn't that mean there was no migration to the north and west prior to 20,000 ky from, say, Ethiopia or Egypt.

posted 20 February 2005 02:07 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
The relatively young TMRCA (mutation divergence date) of 5.6 ky that we estimated for haplography E-M81 and the lack of differentiation between European and African heliotypes in the network of E-M81 support the hypothesis of [b]recent gene flow between northwestern Africa and Iberia.
Cruciani et al. 2002

the M81 mutation arose within North Africa and expanded along with the Neolithic population INTO an environment containing FEW Humans Arredi et al.
2004

Cruciani et al concluded that the distribution of the E3b1-alpha cluster in Europe indicates a Neolithic or post-Neolithic expansion out of the Balkans into Europe that spread as far west as the Iberian peninsula, and southeast to Turkey. STR diversity analysis gives an estimate of about 8 thousand years ago for that expansion. The cluster may have been part of a pre-Neolithic group indigenous to the Balkans, or it may have "leap-frogged" from Anatolia, to the Balkans, and then into Europe. The alpha cluster signature makes it possible to distinguish the E3b1 that expanded out of the Balkans from other E3b1's that came to Europe from the Near East
E3b2 is also seen in Iberia - perhaps as a result of the centuries of Islamic domination of much of the Iberian peninsula - http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~dgarvey/DNA/hg/YCC_E3b.html

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 20 February 2005).][/B]

---

posted 20 February 2005 03:15 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rossi:
Thought, are you saying that you believe there were no humans in Northwest Africa during LGM...or at least no Sub-Saharan people. Wouldn't that mean there was no migration to the north and west prior to 20,000 ky from, say, Ethiopia or Egypt.

---

Thought Writes:

No, there were clearly humans living in NW Africa during the LGM. It is likewise clear that humans migrated from Sub-Saharan Africa to the Maghreb prior to the LGM. What I am stating is that for your theory to stand up we would have to have ancestral M35 lineages spreading to NW Africa prior to 20,000 ky and have to find a sub-lineage. To date no such lineage has been found. Hence the most parsimonious explaination is that M35 lineages spread to NW Africa, the Levant and SE Europe within the past 10,000 years.

posted 20 February 2005 03:30 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

The earliest Eurasian specific E-M78 lineage dates to 7.8 ky, well after the inception and development of animal and plant domestication and the establishment of settled societies at Jericho and Catal Huyuk. Hence, these early Near Eastern settlements were established by populations carrying substantial amounts of Sub-Saharan African “Bloodlines” (Y-Chromosomes).

---

Thought Writes:

Of interest in this regard is the recent study by Pinhasi and Pluciennik:

"A regional biological approach to the spread of agriculture to Europe"

Pinhasi and Pluciennik

Current Anthropology
http://www.ceacb.ucl.ac.uk/cultureclub/files/CC2004-10-07-pinhasi_pluciennik.pdf

Summary of Conclusions from Bellwood 2005:

1) PPNB populations in the Levant and Anatolia were very varied.

Thought Commentary:

This is consistent with the theory of Natufian populations being an admixed population carrying indigenous (Kebaran Complex) Middle Eastern haplogroup J and African derived (Mushabian) haplogroup E, which merged to form the Natufian culture.

2) SE European Neolithic peoples were probably drawn from a Central Anatolian neolithic population, represented by the burials at Catal Huyuk.

Thought Commentary:

Hence the further one moved into Europe the more diffuse the African derived pheotypes.

J.L. Angel:

"In my own skeletal samples from Greece I note apparent negroid nose and mouth traits in two of fourteen Early Neolithic (sixth millenium B.C.), only two or three more among 364 from fifth to second millenium B.C...."

3) Mediterranean populations originated from a greater degree of Mesolithic-Neolithic admixture than those in SE Europe.

Thought Commentary:

posted 21 February 2005 07:11 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

No, there were clearly humans living in NW Africa during the LGM. It is likewise clear that humans migrated from Sub-Saharan Africa to the Maghreb prior to the LGM. What I am stating is that for your theory to stand up we would have to have ancestral M35 lineages spreading to NW Africa prior to 20,000 ky and have to find a sub-lineage. To date no such lineage has been found. Hence the most parsimonious explaination is that M35 lineages spread to NW Africa, the Levant and SE Europe within the past 10,000 years.

[This message has been edited by Thought2 (edited 20 February 2005).]

---

posted 21 February 2005 08:06 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Underhill et al.
2001

Cruciani et al.
2004

---

Those studies confirm the pre-Holocene dispersals of E3b lineages.

quote:

---

J.L. Angel:

"In my own skeletal samples from Greece I note apparent negroid nose and mouth traits in two of fourteen Early Neolithic (sixth millenium B.C.), only two or three more among 364 from fifth to second millenium B.C...."

---

posted 21 February 2005 03:17 PM            

Wrong again. If you go you Underhill's 2001 study he clearly states that:

"We suggest that a population with this sub-clade of the African
YAP/M145/M203/PN2 cluster expanded into the southern and eastern
Mediterranean at the end of the Pleistocene (figure 3h)."

Thought Writes:

The end of the Pleistocene marks the transition to the Holocene. If you
look at figure 3g it is labeled "Late Glacial Warming and Early Holocene";
if you look at figure 3h it is labeled "Holocene" and has arrows showing the
spread of M35 (E3b) lineages out of Africa and around the Mediterranean
basin at this time.

http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AHG_2001_v65_p43.pdf

{So basically we have a maximum of 5 out of 378 Neolithic skulls (1.3%) that show an "apparent negroid" (lowercase 'n') tendency in the nose and mouth area.}

Thought Writes:

Actually, 2 out of 14 (14%) are Neolithic and exhibit Sub-Saharan phenotypic traits that correspond with the dispersal of E3b lineages at this time. The other skulls are bronze and iron age. Cheers!

posted 22 February 2005 07:52 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
The end of the Pleistocene marks the transition to the Holocene.

---

The end of the Pleistocene is obviously part of the Pleistocene, as the designation indicates. Cruciani 2004 dates E3b dispersals to 15 kya, and Luis 2004 concurs, suggesting possibly an even earlier date. The Holocene is just the last 10,000 years.

quote:

---

if you look at figure 3h it is labeled "Holocene" and has arrows showing the spread of M35 (E3b) lineages out of Africa and around the Mediterranean basin at this time.

---

No, you're reading it wrong. It shows E3b spreading from the Levant to North Africa and Europe (the green arrowhead in Africa is covered up by the yellow M170 arrowhead). It also shows Bantu E3a spreading from West to East and South Africa, altering the racial make-up of the continent long after the E3b dispersals of the Pleistocene.

quote:

---

Actually, 2 out of 14 (14%) are Neolithic and exhibit Sub-Saharan phenotypic traits

---

posted 22 February 2005 10:00 PM            

Thought Posts:

Webster’s New Riverside University Dictionary

“Holocene: Of, belonging to, or designating the geologic time, rock series, or sedimentary deposits of the more recent of the two epochs of the Quaternary period, extending from the end of the Pleistocene to the present.”

{Cruciani 2004 dates E3b dispersals to 15 kya}

Thought Posts:

Cruciani 2004

“On the basis of these data, we suggest that cluster delta was involved in a FIRST dispersal or dispersals of the E-M78 chromosomes from eastern Africa INTO northern Africa and the Near East. Time-of-divergence estimates for E-M78 delta chromosomes suggest a relatively great antiquity (14.7 ky)”

Thought Writes:

Hence Cruciani makes no mention of dispersal dates for this lineage. However, as noted the TMRCA for this lineage is 14.7 ky.

{and Luis 2004 concurs, suggesting possibly an even earlier date}

Thought Posts:

Luis et al. 2004

“A more recent dispersal out of Africa, represented by the E3b-M35 chromosomes, expanded northward during the Mesolithic…”

posted 23 February 2005 04:11 AM            

quote:

---

I wish could have persuaded Paul Bond to come here to have him remind people so forcefully as he does, that what we generally see as the Pleistocene/Holocene boundary is actually the end of a five or six thousand year period of what really should be called the Early Holocene

If you really want to think about it in central Canada, northern central Canada, the Pleistocene/Holocene boundary is only 5,000 to 6,000 years ago. It was glaciated up until then or getting actual glacial melt.

I'm really uneasy with this terminology because the Pleistocene/Holocene boundary as a chronostrategraphic thing was established outside of archaeology. It exists in the terminology of climatologists.

---

posted 23 February 2005 05:02 AM            

quote:

---

{Cruciani 2004 dates E3b dispersals to 15 kya}

Thought Posts:

Cruciani 2004

“On the basis of these data, we suggest that cluster delta was involved in a FIRST dispersal or dispersals of the E-M78 chromosomes from eastern Africa INTO northern Africa and the Near East. Time-of-divergence estimates for E-M78 delta chromosomes suggest a relatively great antiquity (14.7 ky)”

Thought Writes:

Hence Cruciani makes no mention of dispersal dates for this lineage. However, as noted the TMRCA for this lineage is 14.7 ky.

{and Luis 2004 concurs, suggesting possibly an even earlier date}

[/B]

---

posted 23 February 2005 05:17 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rossi:
If this is true, there is still a land bridge betwee Africa and Iberia at this time. Some say it existed even until 11 kya.

---

If "what" is true. Are you also confusing mrca with dispersal date?

posted 23 February 2005 07:50 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
[B]You can play with terminology and dates all you want, but the point is that by the time Africa started becoming Negroid, ]

---

Started becoming Negroid, as if one has to be E3a to be Negroid.

[This message has been edited by Topdog (edited 23 February 2005).]

posted 23 February 2005 07:50 AM            

quote:

---

You can play with terminology and dates all you want

---

Here's an example:

quote:

---

but the point is that by the time Africa started becoming Negroid

---

What it actually states: "We suggest that a population with this sub-clade of the African YAP/M145/M203/PN2 cluster expanded into the southern and eastern
Mediterranean at the end of the Pleistocene (figure 3h)

Evidence has already been provided for their African physical affinity, and detectible admixture to Europe's Neolithic population, so....

posted 23 February 2005 09:13 AM            

quote:

---

Started becoming Negroid, as if one has to be E3a to be Negroid.

---

We've also covered in detail the common cladistic relationship between E3a and E3b and the fact that there are E3A Black Africans such as the Tutsi with elongated features (narrow nose and face) and E3b Black Africans such as the Berta with broader features.

Example of the kind of response, that is typically evaded:

quote:

---

EuroDisney writes: “That's not sub-Saharan Africa, stupid. It's Northeastern Africa, which was not remotely Negroid when E3b arose some 26,000 years ago.”

Charlie Bass writes:
E3b arose in East Africa around 26,000 years ago and it is found highest in Borana Kenyans with a frequency of 71%. Borana Kenyans are Negroid peoples. Get your facts straight racial reality. And Ethiopians aren’t sub-Saharan? Read your own source you quoted from:

Unlike other sub-Sahara African populations, Ethiopians display a high frequency of type 1, which is by far the most frequent type in Asians. However, such a high frequency does not appear to be due to an explicit Caucasoid influence.

Disney writes: “Hell, it's only between 5% and 60% Negroid today, and that's due to movements in historical times.”

Charlie Bass writes:
You’re wrong again. The 60% Negroid figure came from a study on Ethiopians, not all of North-East Africans, stop distorting the facts. That figure represents the most ‘Negroid’ mixture found in those Ethiopians who absorbed the Middle Eastern ancestry. Not all Ethiopians are have 40% Middle Eastern ancestry.

Disney: “More importantly, the sub-Saharan (Negroid) component in modern NE African populations is predominantly maternal, while the paternal side is composed almost entirely of Middle Eastern and North African (Caucasoid) lineages (see, e.g., Passarino et al. 1998 -- under "Discussion").
Furthermore, E3b has been shown to correlate with Caucasoid racial characteristics:”

Charlie Bass writes: Quit trying to dodge the facts racialreality. That’s data from Coon’s outdated, debunked source. Dienekes focused only on Berbers who have E-81. What about the E-M78 in East Africans? E3b hasn’t been scientifically proven to correlate to any set of racial characteristics. Since E3b arose in East Africa 26,000 years ago, are you saying the earliest bearers of this gene were Caucasoids??? If so, so called ‘Caucasoid’ features found in East Africans do not result from mixture with Middle Easterners, as Said Mohammad showed with his table of anthropometric data with ‘mixed’ and unmixed East African populations.

---

posted 23 February 2005 07:42 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
If "what" is true. Are you also confusing mrca with dispersal date?

---

You are right, I am confusing the two. I am really a neophyte to all this. Just trying to put together a few things. Working on a hypothesis that some E3b's could have made it into Iberia from Northwest Africa right after LGM..when there was a land bridge, much like the ancient horse supposedly did....and dispersed into certain parts of Europe at the repopulation time. I am backing into this whole thing because of a weird E3b haplotype and some current YHRD geographic data that would places this haplotype with European Cromagnon sites and considered European paleolithic ancestors...and other circumstancial data.

posted 23 February 2005 07:46 PM            

quote:

---

[/B]

---

posted 23 February 2005 08:20 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
You can play with terminology and dates all you want, but the point is that by the time Africa started becoming Negroid, E3b was already long gone and spreading out from the Middle East, as your own source demonstrates:

---

Thought Writes:

It is not an issue of "playing" with the terminology, the fact is the end of the pleistocene signals the beginning of the Holocene.

posted 23 February 2005 08:23 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rossi:

Where did this image come from?

---

posted 23 February 2005 08:31 PM            

E3b either took part in the repopulation of Europe right after the LGM or actually weathered the LGM in the Balkans or Iberia or both with Europe’s other Paleolithic ancestors.

posted 23 February 2005 08:35 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rossi:
E3b either took part in the repopulation of Europe right after the LGM or actually weathered the LGM in the Balkans or Iberia or both with Europe’s other Paleolithic ancestors.

---

Thought Writes:

posted 23 February 2005 08:42 PM            

quote:

---

[/B]

---

posted 23 February 2005 08:45 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

Based upon what evidence?

---

Nothing that could sustain peer review. All circumstantial. But, up close and personal on this one Thought..... I can smell it....and I will find it one day.

posted 23 February 2005 09:01 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rossi:

Nothing that could sustain peer review. All circumstantial. But, up close and personal on this one Thought..... I can smell it....and I will find it one day.

Best.

---

Thought Writes:

Sounds interesting. I look forward to the results of your investigation.

posted 09 March 2005 01:24 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rossi:

I think perhaps I have been confusing terms in trying to understand the haplogroup in question. I have been using Paleolithic, a time period, to describe Paleolithic peoples, when I should have been using Cro-Magnon. The haplogroup in question certainly has significant matches in geographic areas that relate to remnant Cro-Magnon populations today. However, because it does so doesn’t mean the haplogroup in question was there during the Paleolithic. According to Underhill, Haplogroup E3b brought with it certain types of Haplogroup I during the Neolithic. Their dispersion patterns overlap. This might account for the large number of hits of the haplotype in question being found in Scandinavia (Cro-Magnon area in Sweden). We know that area was settled after the LGM: Mesolithic and Neolithic for the most part. I have already noted the close similarity between the E3b haplotypes in question and certain I haplotypes. This dispersion also brought Haplogroup I to Iberia where it is also found with the Basques (Cromagnoid), typically R1b (also very similar to the E3b haplotype in question). Perhaps the I1b2 and the E3b found with Basques is the result of an influx of similar people to the area at a later date? (Note that the haplotype in question is not a typical Berber haplotype at all.) Perhaps the haplotype is an example of a particular type of person that settled these areas during the Mesolithic or after. (Also, please note the matches in Croatia (Balkans, Cro-Magnon) area for the E3b haplotype in question…. purported to be an I1b2 refuge during the LGM.) Also, this does not mean a relationship between pre-Neolithic North Africa and Iberia didn’t exist in a small way. However, the similarities between the haplotype in question to some of haplogroup I points toward a migration with I and away from a direct North African/Iberia contact, where the haplotype in question is different, certainly with a completely different current dispersion in Europe (YHRD), than the modal Berber haplotype (DYS 391 is 9 or 10 and DYS 19 is 13).

---

What is the E3b haplotype in question? Would this be the haplotype "I"?

posted 09 March 2005 01:45 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Super car:
What is the E3b haplotype in question? Would this be the haplotype "I"?

[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 09 March 2005).]

---

E3b in question (mine):

14 13 30 24 11 11 13 18,18 E3b (SNP = M35)

DYS19 DYS389 I DYS389 II DYS390 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS385a&b # worldwide
14 13 30 24 11 11 13 11,14 I1b*
14 13 30 24 11 11 13 16,18 E3b

A total of 24 hits on YHRD. 10 of the above are I1b's. The others vary at DYS 385 a&b but also are predicted to be I1b. One is unknown.

posted 09 March 2005 01:58 PM            

First sentence should have read:

I think perhaps I have been confusing terms in trying to understand the haploTYPE in question.

Also in other places. I edited the original post.

Sorry for the confusion.

posted 09 March 2005 02:09 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by S.Mohammad:
Evil Euro lies and says there no Arab or Semitic blood in Italian but look at this Italian

---

posted 19 March 2005 04:15 PM            

Hum Biol. 2003 Apr;75(2):163-78.

Genetic analysis of a Sicilian population using 15 short tandem repeats.

Calo CM, Garofano L, Mameli A, Pizzamiglio M, Vona G.

Department of Experimental Biology, Section of Anthropological Sciences, University of Cagliari, Cagliari, Italy.

The genetic structure of the population of Alia (Sicily, Italy) was analyzed using 15 short tandem repeats: TPOX, D2S1338, D3S1358, FIBRA, D5S818, CSF1PO, D7S820, D8S1179, TH01, VWA, D13S317, D16S539, D18S51, D19S433, and D21S11. Two of these markers, D2S1338 and D19S433, have never before been used in research on population genetics and only recently have they been put to use in forensic medicine. Results of the analysis underline the genetic isolation of the Alia population and show it to be a recent bottleneck as a consequence of a cholera epidemic in 1837. While comparing the Alia population with other populations from Sicily, a genetic heterogeneity within Sicily was uncovered, thus confirming previous results obtained from the analysis of classical markers. This heterogeneity underlines the existence of genetic boundaries within the island. Comparisons with other Italian, Mediterranean, and European populations highlight the differentiation of the Sicilian population, reflecting the presence of a genetic boundary that separates Sicily from northern and central Italy and from the western Mediterranean basin.

«Our data seem to confirm the hypothesis of Sandler et al. (1978) that underlines the African contribution to the Sicilian gene pool, because of the high frequencies of Hbs, cDe, and Fy (a-b-). In a paper on mtDNA, Semino et al. (1989) found support for this hypothesis, dating back to the introduction of black slaves by Phoenicians and Romans and to the later influxes of Arab immigrants.»

«Genetic distances calculated with the Nei method (1972) are reported in Table 5. It was observed that the smallest distance lay between Germany and Hungary (0.0099) in comparison to the largest distance, which was between Palermo and Lombardy (0.2356).»

«A genetic boundary, in fact, clearly divides Sicily from north-central Italy and from northern European populations, besides the other populations from the western Mediterranean basin.»

Hum Genet. 1992 Jul;89(5):553-6.

Alpha I/65 hereditary elliptocytosis in southern Italy: evidence for an African origin.

del Giudice EM, Ducluzeau MT, Alloisio N, Wilmotte R, Delaunay J, Perrotta S, Cutillo S, Iolascon A.

Department of Pediatrics, University of Naples, Italy.

alpha I/65 Hereditary elliptocytosis (HE) is due to the duplication of TTG codon 154 (leucine) of alpha-spectrin and is associated with a constant haplotype. It was encountered exclusively in African and American Blacks, and in North Africans. We assumed that it diffused from the Benin-Togo area to Northern Africa. We now report two South Italian families with alpha I/65 HE. The phenotype fully conformed to previous descriptions. The mode of transmission was dominant; however, the manifestations were more pronounced when the common, low expression level alpha V/41 allele occurred in trans to the alpha I/65 allele, also conforming to previous records. The mutation underlying alpha I/65 HE turned out to be, again, the duplication of TTG codon 154 and the associated haplotype was the same as that encountered previously (+-+; XbaI, PvuII, MspI). Thus, the alpha I/65 allele found in Italy must have been introduced from North Africa across the Sicilian channel and would ultimately have originated from the Benin-Togo area. It would witness the same migratory stream as that followed by the Benin type haemoglobin S allele, which is also present in Southern Italy.

Ann Hum Genet. 1989 May;53 ( Pt 2):193-202.

Mitochondrial DNA polymorphisms in Italy. III. Population data from Sicily: a possible quantitation of maternal African ancestry.

Semino O, Torroni A, Scozzari R, Brega A, De Benedictis G, Santachiara Benerecetti AS.

Dipartimento di Genetica e Microbiologia 'A. Buzzati-Traverso', Universita di Pavia, Italy.

mtDNA polymorphisms were studied in a sample of 90 individuals of the Sicilian population using six restriction enzymes: HpaI, BamHI, HaeII, MspI, AvaII and HincII. (1) Three new patterns, for MspI, AvaII and HincII, have been detected. (2) At least two different mutations were found to account for both the AvaII morph 3 and the AvaII morph 9 as in many other Caucasian groups so far examined. (3) Seventeen types were found; of these six are new. The frequency (54.5%) of type 1-2 (2.1.1.1.1.2) is lower than in the rest of Italy whereas those of type 6-2 (2.1.2.1.1.2) (10.0%) and type 18-2 (2.3.1.4.9*.2) (12.2%) lie at the upper level of the Italian range. The 18-derivative, type 57-2 (2.3.1.4.13*.2), which is consistently found in all Italian samples, is present also among Sicilians with an incidence of 2.2%. (4) Of particular interest is that the HpaI-3/AvaII-3 complex, which is unique to groups of African ancestry, was found in Sicily at a frequency of 4.4%. For the first time an estimate of the amount of gene flow from Blacks to the Sicilian gene pool could be obtained.

posted 20 March 2005 07:47 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Genetic analysis of a Sicilian population using 15 short tandem repeats.

Calo CM, Garofano L, Mameli A, Pizzamiglio M, Vona G.

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Outdated:

It cites research from the 1980's and 1970's! Reliable methods based on analyzing mtDNA, Y-chromosomes, autosomes and nuclear DNA were not introduced into the field of population genetics until the 1990's. The authors of this study should get out of their time machine and start reading more up-to-date material.

quote:

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Alpha I/65 hereditary elliptocytosis in southern Italy: evidence for an African origin.

del Giudice EM, Ducluzeau MT, Alloisio N, Wilmotte R, Delaunay J, Perrotta S, Cutillo S, Iolascon A.

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Unreliable:

It's based on an environmentally selected marker similar to sickle cell trait.

quote:

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Mitochondrial DNA polymorphisms in Italy. III. Population data from Sicily: a possible quantitation of maternal African ancestry.

Semino O, Torroni A, Scozzari R, Brega A, De Benedictis G, Santachiara Benerecetti AS.

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Refuted:

Mitochondrial DNA sequence analysis in Sicily

Vona et al. (2001)
Am J Hum Biol

In work carried out with restriction enzymes on mtDNA in a sample of Sicilians, Semino et al. (1989) indicated the presence (4.4%) of the African complex HpaI-3/AvaII-3 (40% in Senegal and in the Bantu of South Africa). The authors hypothesized a migration of genes from Africa to Sicily, estimated at about 10%, which was introduced into the Sicilian gene pool by Black slaves brought by the Phoenicians and the Romans and/or by Arab migrations. Results at the mtDNA sequencing level, however, show no Black African influence in the Sicilian population.

Get this through your skull, desperate slave boy:

Sicilians are European
Sicilians are European
Sicilians are European
Sicilians are European
Sicilians are European
Sicilians are European
Sicilians are European
Sicilians are European

posted 20 March 2005 10:36 AM            

quote:

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Sicilians are European
Sicilians are European
Sicilians are European
Sicilians are European
Sicilians are European

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But most of them are not as childish as you.

Now you're back to schizophrenic wigging out, in frustration.

Speaking of wigs. This isn't one...

Sicilian

posted 20 March 2005 11:55 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Rasol:

Now you're back to schizophrenic wigging out, in frustration.

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Thought Writes:

Perhaps you are right rasol. First Evil E quotes:

quote:

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Originally posted by Evil Euro:

Outdated:

It cites research from the 1980's and 1970's! Reliable methods based on analyzing mtDNA, Y-chromosomes, autosomes and nuclear DNA were not introduced into the field of population genetics until the 1990's.

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Thought Writes:

Then he turns around and states:

quote:

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Originally posted by Evil Euro:

Exactly:

Another group that has been the subject of much discussion is the Khoisanid peoples (including the Hottentots, San, !Kung). The San (Bushmen) in southern Africa are a group that physically looks quite different from other Negroids. Baker (1974), and Coon (1965) among others, have argued they are as different from Negroids as Caucasoids are, and should be treated as a separate race from other Negroids.

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On one hand Evil E rejects anthropological studies that pre-date modern population genetics, on the other hand he quotes outdated studies and concepts from Carleton Coon! These inconsistencies may be a sign of the schizophrenia you mentioned. Evil E will go to great lengths to aviod the obvious conclusion that southern Europeans are hybrids of recent European and African origin.

posted 20 March 2005 03:46 PM            

quote:

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Evil E will go to great lengths to aviod the obvious conclusion that southern Europeans are hybrids of recent European and African origin.

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It's always been obvious by the nature of his trolling arguments, wracked by internal contradiction, hypocrisy, distortion and elementary lapses in logic., that he understands the essential falseness of his own denials of heterogeniety in Southern Europe.

He returns here daily more out of compulsive obsession than for any 'sane' reason.

posted 22 March 2005 07:35 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Topdog:
Good website on southern Italians
http://www.morellopoli.com/morellopoli/

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That's a lame humor site created by a delusional Northern Italian Germanist. The fact that you think it's "good" speaks volumes about your own mental state and the close kinship between Afrocentrism and Aryanism.

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Evil E rejects anthropological studies that pre-date modern population genetics

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No, I reject genetic studies that predate modern (post 1990) population genetics, which is precisely what Calo et al. use.

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
Speaking of wigs. This isn't one...

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Um, that guy has short spiked hair, you pathetic blind monkey. But even if it were wavy or curly, there's nothing specifically African about that. You really need to stop seeking validation in imaginary "Black" Europeans. It's very sad, as it reveals the depth of your self-hatred.

quote:

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It's always been obvious by the nature of his trolling arguments....

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The only trolling arguments are those of drowning Afronuts . . .

posted 22 March 2005 11:34 AM            

Every other ethnic background seems to stand up for itself and demand respect when it is being discriminated against. If we look back over the history of this country we will find group after group that defend their rights. Groups that do not want to be portrayed in a negative light within the culture and groups that insist upon compensation for what Americans and the American society has done to them. Why, then, when we look at Italian Americans, do we tend to see a group of people who in effect renounce who they are and do not embrace their heritage?

There are many reasons for this quite common denouncement. The first is an attempt to assimilate. “By 1930, more than 4.5 million Italians had entered the United States,”; that is, a third of the population left Italy within the fifty years leading up to 1930 (Mangione 33). These Italians immigrated to this country with the hope that they would find food, jobs and financial security. Instead, they found, often times, worse conditions than they had left behind in Italy. This humungous population was the largest immigration from any one country to ever enter the United States. These people were in need and when they arrived they were ready to work and to earn their wages, which could lead to comfort and happiness. They came in hopes of finding “the American dream.” Unfortunately, they were met with opposition.

Irish Americans began to exclude Italian Americans and to state that they were not welcome within the doors of the Irish Catholic churches. The Irish having known English before immigrating to the United States, began to show the Italians that the first thing that made them different was the language barrier. Italians, for the most part spoke very little English and the English they did speak was broken. So, settling Italians started to encourage their children to speak English. Although, a majority of them could not speak English, they began to pride themselves in the knowledge that their children could.

Many Italian Americans began sending their children to Irish churches primarily so they could learn the English language. The Italians wanted to connect with other Catholics and believed that by introducing their children to the religion, they were helping develop moral and kind adults. But, the Irish would not have it. Being bitter at the new Italian immigrant population, they began to discriminate against the Italians. Soon, Italian immigrants believed that the Irish Catholics were simply money groveling, but they continued to attend the Irish Catholic churches. They did not want to, in any way, jeopardize their children’s chances of a relationship with God, so Italian parents continued to be supportive of Irish churches. In Mount Allegro by Jerre Mangione, there is a chapter entitled “God and the Sicilian”. In this chapter he speaks of his Sicilian family and their relationship with God. He talks of how the parents already have an “in “ with God and although they do not attend church, there was no doubt in he and his brother’s mind that his parents were devote Catholics. But, this family struggled with the Irish church their children attended. And, when it came time for the children to go to school, wanting the best for her children, Mrs. Mangione tried to enroll them in a parochial school but was quickly stopped by the racial hatred of the Irish priest who was in charge of the school. “But the Irish priest refused to enroll Joe along with me on the ground that he was not old enough to enter school . . . she [mom] marched us to the nearest public school, where she had no difficulty enrolling us” (Mangione 71). Events like this between the Italians and the Americans were so prevalent, Italians were ready to change to avoid them. Here is where their assimilation began.

Italian Americans began denouncing their culture and changing their culture to match and function within the context of the American society. They began hiding the fact that they were Italian and starting discouraging their children from the Italian ways. But, this rejection of their heritage started to create conflict within the children.

All of this stems from the self-hatred the immigrating population had regarding their culture, customs and roots. It is as though the emigrating generation tried so hard to assimilate, that they have accepted the Italian image as the entertainment world have created it only because they are so disconnected from what it really “could” be to be an Italian America.

This self-hatred is not acceptable and it has to change. The change can start by realizing that to be an Italian American is a privilege not a disgrace. That is not to say that Italian Americans are better than all other Americans, but it is to say that Italian Americans have just as much ability and worth as the next non-Italian American. Italian Americans can find this worth from their fellow Italian Americans who are and continue to succeed and persevere while being proud of being American and having Italian heritage.

One place where self-hatred manifests itself is in politics. Politically, Italian Americans feel embarrassed ( http://www.io.com/~segreta/about/preface.html ). This may come from Mussolini’s involvement with Hitler during World War II. But, this is no longer a reason to be ashamed of one’s heritage. Just like German Americans and Germans should not hate themselves because of the holocaust, neither should Italian Americans.

Instead, all Americans need to see what happened to Jewish people, recognize it is unacceptable and make sure nothing like it ever happens again. Instead, of being embarrassed about the mistakes Italy made politically, Italian Americans need to look at some of the leaders that are Italian American. Right now we have a huge number of politicians in office that are Italian Americans. Here is when Italian Americans need to be proud that their race has persevered through discrimination and is currently being elected to public office by the majority of their American peers.

So, if other people see the worth of Italian Americans, why don’t the Italian Americans themselves? And why don't Italian Americans unite to fight discrimination? This comes from a fear that they will be “discovered” as different. Italians tried to come to America and become one with Americans. So, currently, they do not stand up for what they believe they were and they do not believe that what they were relates to what they are today. Because Italian Americans did not feel as though they would ever be accepted they transformed themselves in order to be accepted. This change, over the last two generations, has caused a strange backlash. That is, instead of fighting against stereotypical and discriminatory actions, they tend to embrace them. As though Italian Americans do not want to reject them for fear that they may then be isolating themselves once again from the dominant culture. Take the show “The Sopranos” for instance. Why did so many Italian Americans try out to portray Italian Mafiosi?

The interest occurred for two reasons. One, to many Italian Americans, the mafia is something that they have never had contact with so to these Italian Americans what they are actually portraying is not Italian American reality, but instead simply a Hollywood created idea of Italian Mafiosi. As a result, the Italian Americans do not feel as though it is unacceptable. But, what about the Italian Americans who do feel it is unacceptable that 72 percent of the films that depict Italian Americans show them as, “boors, bigots or bimbos” (http://www.niaf.org )? Do they not stand up and fight the discrimination because they worry that the other Italian Americans will be angered by this? Or do they instead feel as though standing up against their culture’s discrimination will some how isolate them again? Either way, what needs to change is the feeling of shame for who these Italian Americans are.

posted 22 March 2005 11:36 AM            

quote:

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That's a lame humor site created by a delusional Northern Italian Germanist. The fact that you think it's "good" speaks volumes about your own mental state and the close kinship between Afrocentrism and Aryanism.

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Evil E can't even take being humored, I know the site was created by a idiot, but rest assure I have no kinship with Aryanists. In fact, your constant use of Carleton and C. Loring Brace, and calling posters here "low IQ niggas" places you closer to Aryanists. Its a shame you don't see that.

posted 22 March 2005 12:04 PM            

Here's a site proclaiming to debunk the "myth of Italians black ancestry," while a completely different site using the exact same design and layout sets out to refute the first site's position.
http://www.italianrap.com/italam/italam_race.html

posted 23 March 2005 07:44 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
The Causes of Self Hatred among Italians and How to Combat It

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You reveal your own desperation and lack of critical reading skills with the material you choose to post. The author (an obvious leftist) wants us to believe (which you stupidly do) that Italian-Americans hate themselves simply because 1) they assimilated into American society like all other European immigrants before them, and 2) they think The Sopranos is a quality show and not "ethnic discrimination".

The article is PC tripe, just like everything else you mistake for insightful. Of course, Italians have a rich cultural heritage that they're proud of and secure in, which is why they can embrace America and handle stereotypes. Negroes, on the other hand, sadly don't, which is why they cling desperately to Afrocentrism.

quote:

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http://www.italianrap.com/italam/italam_race.html

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The ramblings of Italian whiggers don't interest me. I'll stick with the findings of Italian scientists.

P.S. Hannibal was, of course, a white man: