posted 16 February 2005 08:35 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Dada Afre:
No

I got that off the internet

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posted 16 February 2005 11:27 AM            

The evidence that Judaism springs from the ancient monotheism is circumstantial and should be explored for purely academic reasons. Freud( a Jew himself), for example, wrote a book titled "Moses and Monotheism" in which he argued that Moses(an Egyptian name) was an Egyptian who served as a cultural patriarch for a subsequent Judaism.

From a strictly sociological angle Egypt's longevity and the central role that the pharaoh played for thousands of years in that civilisation could have ultimately led to the idea of a single deity instead of a number of such as with the Greeks and Romans. The idea of "African divine kingship" to include the ancient Egyptian monotheism along with other African forms of divine kingship has been explored by British anthropologist Glynn Daniels.

posted 16 February 2005 04:05 PM            

http://www.spirithome.com/spirpers.html#whois
http://www.carm.org/doctrine/holyspirit.htm
http://www.carm.org/doctrine/whatisthetrinity.htm

This is something on the Exodus and why we haven't found evidence of millions of people wandering for 40 years.

http://www.carm.org/questions/desert.htm

That apologetics site is actually pretty good.

http://www.carm.org/questions/textualevidence.htm
http://www.carm.org/questions/extrabiblical_accounts.htm

Here, there are a is a slew of links on Jesus/God...

posted 16 February 2005 04:43 PM            

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God is the hidden being, and no man hath known his Form. No man hath been able to seek out His likeness; He is hidden from gods and men, and He is a mystery unto His creatures. No man knoweth how to know Him. His name remaineth hidden; His name is a mystery unto His children. His names are innumerable, they are manifold and none knoweth their number

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quote:

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God is the truth, and He liveth truth, and He feedeth thereon. He is the King of truth, He resteth upon truth, He fashioned truth, and He executeth truth throughout all the world

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God is father and mother, the father of fathers, and the mother of mothers. He begetteth, but was never begotten; He produceth, but was never produced, He begat Himself and produced Himself. He createth, but was never created; he is maker of His own form, and the fashioner of His own body

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quote:

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God is the father of the gods, and the father of the father of all ideas. He made His voice to sound, and the deuties came into being, and the gods sprang into existence after He had spoken with His mouth. He formed mankind and fashioned the gods. He is the great Master, the primeval Potter who turned men and gods out of His hands, and He formed men and gods upon a potter's table

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God hath made the universe, and He created all that therein is; He is the Creator of what is in the world, of what was, of what is, and of what shall be. He is the Creator of the world, and it was He who fashioned it with His hands before there was any beginning; and He established it with that which went forth from Him. He is the Creator of the heavens, and the earth, and the deep, and the waters, and the mountains. God hath stretched out the heavens and founded the earth. What his heart conceived came to pass straightway, and when He had spoken His word came to pass, and it shall endure forever

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posted 16 February 2005 04:56 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:
Could you tell us where?

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posted 16 February 2005 05:38 PM            

quote:

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Dada Afre:
Clearly the Christian concept of God comes from Egypt

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Any objective person who even remotely knows anything about Judaism, Christianity or Islam, can clearly see that the latter two have influences from the former. This is not to imply that there are no differences between them, but the influences are clear to anyone with an open mind. Judaism in turn has its roots in Kemet. Even the Bible doesn't deny this, in the event that one choses to ignore the concrete evidence side of the matter. It really isn't that hard to grasp. But then of course, there is always denial.

posted 16 February 2005 05:44 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Super car:
Any objective person who even remotely knows anything about Judaism, Christianity or Islam, can clearly see that the latter two have influences from the former. This is not to imply that there are no differences between them, but the influences are clear to anyone with an open mind. Judaism in turn has its roots in Kemet. Even the Bible doesn't deny this, in the event that one choses to ignore the concrete evidence side of the matter. It really isn't that hard to grasp. But then of course, there is always denial.

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The Bible doesn't deny Egypt's role in the Exodus and a few other events. It says nothing about getting it's belief system from it.

Dada: You still haven't said where you're getting those quotes from. I've never heard of the Egyptians referring to their Gods as one God...I'm very skeptical.

posted 16 February 2005 05:45 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
The Bible doesn't deny Egypt's role in the Exodus and a few other events. It says nothing about getting it's belief system from it.

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What is "It"?

posted 16 February 2005 05:46 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
The Bible doesn't deny Egypt's role in the Exodus and a few other events. It says nothing about getting it's belief system from it.

Dada: You still haven't said where you're getting those quotes from. I've never heard of the Egyptians referring to their Gods as one God...I'm very skeptical.

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posted 16 February 2005 05:49 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Super car:
Any objective person who even remotely knows anything about Judaism, Christianity or Islam, can clearly see that the latter two have influences from the former. This is not to imply that there are no differences between them, but the influences are clear to anyone with an open mind. Judaism in turn has its roots in Kemet. Even the Bible doesn't deny this, in the event that one choses to ignore the concrete evidence side of the matter. It really isn't that hard to grasp. But then of course, there is always denial.

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posted 16 February 2005 05:51 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Dada Afre:
You should check out Dr. Darkwah's book.

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posted 16 February 2005 05:54 PM            

quote:

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The Egyptian Book of the Dead is unqeustionably one of the most influential books in history. Embodying a ritual to be performed for the dead, with detailed instructions for the behavior of the disemboodied spirit in the Land of the Gods, [i]it served as the most important repository of religious authority for some threee thousand years

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posted 16 February 2005 06:05 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Super car:
What does that entail?

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Dr. Darkwah discusses the tribal background of the ancient Egyptians, as well as the Hebrew in great detail, primarily using linguistic and cultural analysis. He proves the people we call Jews and Hebrews come from Egyptian tribes. He spends a lot of time discerning African names from harsh Greek/European corruptions. He also discusses the "Sumerians" and "Akkadians". It's a must read.

posted 16 February 2005 06:17 PM            

quote:

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Dada Afre:

Dr. Darkwah discusses the tribal background of the ancient Egyptians, as well as the Hebrew in great detail, primarily using linguistic and cultural analysis. He proves the people we call Jews and Hebrews come from Egyptian tribes. He spends a lot of time discerning African names from harsh Greek/European corruptions. He also discusses the "Sumerians" and "Akkadians". It's a must read.

He has a book coming out this fall entitled Egypt: The Story Africa Has Never Told.

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Sounds like an interesting read. I am of the opinion that these "Jews" who newly inhabited Canaan, were Egyptian citizens. Recalling the Amarna period, attempts to erace all traces of Akhenaten, his wife, and belief system can be seen from surviving items left behind. Needless to say that this man and his wife weren't popular, precisely because of the "one" God concept route that they decided to take. It would make sense, that Egyptians would not have wanted to talk much about the event. This would explain the lack of mention of the Exodus in Egyptian texts, including this person "Moses". Surely a big event like this ought to be recorded by some one. But it appeared that the Egyptians, who didn't particularly like the new concept brought forth by this ruler (Akhenaten) did their best to forget his concept and anything remotely related to it, like the "Exodus" migrants.

posted 16 February 2005 06:22 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Super car:
Sounds like an interesting read. I am of the opinion that these "Jews" who newly inhabited Canaan, were Egyptian citizens. Recalling the Amarna period, attempts to erace all traces of Akhenaten, his wife, and belief system can be seen from surviving items left behind. Needless to say that this man and his wife weren't popular, precisely because of the "one" God concept route that they decided to take. It would make sense, that Egyptians would not have wanted to talk much about the event. This would explain the lack of mention of the Exodus in Egyptian texts, and and this person named "Moses". Surely a big event like this, ought to be recorded by some one. But it appeared that the Egyptians, who didn't particularly like the new concept brought forth by this ruler (Akhenaten) did their best to forget his concept and anything remotely related to it, like the "Exodus" migrants.

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This is what he says about Akhenaton and his faith:

quote:

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In recent support of the Jewish people's claim of the creation of universal monotheism, some Egyptologists have also argued that the object of Akenten's (Akhenaton) worship was the sun disc, but that is also wrong. Akenten introduced a form of monotheism in which the God that was to be worshipped above every other God was the God in the sky where the sun resides ...
Akenten's sun was a symbol of the sky-God. Akenten is an Akan name and the Akan language of reference to the monotheist God was, has been, and still is Onyame a owo soro, the God of the sky.
(pg 129)

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posted 16 February 2005 07:16 PM            

Egypt

Dada: I don't know in what context it's written...or how it's worded. Explain to me again who this "God" is. And again, just because the wise words of an Egyptian sound similiar to that of someone in the Bible does NOT mean that's where it was derived. Not to mention there's a lot about the Bible that has little to nothing to do with Egypt. 70% of the Bible doesn't even take place in Egypt. I think some of you are digging too deep into this and making something out of nothing. I mean it's like believing the Di Vinci Code. So many people just KNOW there's a connection when there really isn't.

This is what the Jews have to say about the Egypt connection...

Since Judaism does believe in the "next world," how does one account for the Torah's silence? I suspect that there is a correlation between its nondiscussion of afterlife and the fact that the Torah was revealed just after the long Jewish sojourn in Egypt. The Egyptian society from which the Hebrew slaves emerged was obsessed with death and afterlife. The holiest Egyptian literary work was called The Book of the Dead, while the major achievement of many Pharaohs was the erection of the giant tombs called pyramids. In contrast, the Torah is obsessed with this world, so much so that it even forbids its priests from coming into contact with dead bodies (Leviticus 21:2). The Torah, therefore, might have been silent about afterlife out of a desire to ensure that Judaism not evolve in the direction of the death obsessed Egyptian religion.

posted 16 February 2005 07:37 PM            

quote:

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What is "It"?

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King_Scorpion replies:

quote:

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Egypt

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That doesn't make sense, considering the fact that Judaism has its roots in ancient Egypt. What do you think led to the "Exodus"? Was it not the events that took place in Kemet? How did these events come about? You focus squarely on the religious concepts that were popular throughout much of Dynastic Egypt, while ignoring other events that took place in the vast timeframe of Dynastic Egypt. The point is that a religious revolution took place in the 18th Dynasty; the "one" God concept. This is the period, it appears for some reason, you choose to ignore. It was after this development, that events leading the "Exodus" is believed to have occurred. In fact many historians place "Moses" presence in Kemet at about the same timeframe as Akhenaten or thereafter; rarely, if ever, before that period. Is that some coincidence or what?

posted 16 February 2005 09:55 PM            

Yes, but just because the Israelites were in Egypt does not mean they worshipped the Egyptian Gods and Goddesses. There were many foreign groups that entered Egypt over time. If we follow what the Jews/Israelites say about where they come from...we find Mesopotamia...Sumeria exactly. Not Egypt! They came in as "Afro-Asiatics" but everyone that entered Egypt may not have followed the Egyptian tradition.

posted 16 February 2005 10:01 PM            

quote:

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King_Scorpion:
Yes, but just because the Israelites were in Egypt does not mean they worshipped the Egyptian Gods and Goddesses. There were many foreign groups that entered Egypt over time. If we follow what the Jews/Israelites say about where they come from...we find Mesopotamia...Sumeria exactly. Not Egypt! They came in as "Afro-Asiatics" but everyone that entered Egypt may not have followed the Egyptian tradition.

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Why then did the Egyptian not write of this so-called Exodus, if indeed these people were of distinct identities? Surely if the so-called Isrealites were that much patriotic about their distinct identity, the Egyptians would have noticed it.

quote:

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King_Scorpion:

As far as the Exodus taking place during the 18th Dynasty...

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posted 16 February 2005 10:11 PM            

quote:

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King_Scorpion:
It seems as if you're trying to say the Exodus took place during the 18th Dynasty since that's when the revolution occured.

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posted 17 February 2005 12:03 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
[b]What is "It"?

Egypt

Dada: I don't know in what context it's written...or how it's worded. Explain to me again who this "God" is. And again, just because the wise words of an Egyptian sound similiar to that of someone in the Bible does NOT mean that's where it was derived. Not to mention there's a lot about the Bible that has little to nothing to do with Egypt. 70% of the Bible doesn't even take place in Egypt. I think some of you are digging too deep into this and making something out of nothing. I mean it's like believing the Di Vinci Code. So many people just KNOW there's a connection when there really isn't.

This is what the Jews have to say about the Egypt connection...

Since Judaism does believe in the "next world," how does one account for the Torah's silence? I suspect that there is a correlation between its nondiscussion of afterlife and the fact that the Torah was revealed just after the long Jewish sojourn in Egypt. The Egyptian society from which the Hebrew slaves emerged was obsessed with death and afterlife. The holiest Egyptian literary work was called The Book of the Dead, while the major achievement of many Pharaohs was the erection of the giant tombs called pyramids. In contrast, the Torah is obsessed with this world, so much so that it even forbids its priests from coming into contact with dead bodies (Leviticus 21:2). The Torah, therefore, might have been silent about afterlife out of a desire to ensure that Judaism not evolve in the direction of the death obsessed Egyptian religion.

I have done much searching on the internet and have found nothing talking about how all the Gods combined into one. What did the Egyptians supposedly call this One God? Whenever I search for the Egyptian/All-other religions connection...I get a nuch of sites with agendas and/or saying the same thing.[/B]

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Egyptian religion was always monotheistic. This belief never changed. In Egyptian Religion Budge says:

quote:

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A study of ancient Egyptian religious texts will convince the reader that the Egyptians believed in One God, who was self-existent, immortal, invisible, eternal, omniscent, almighty, and inscrutable; the maker of the heavens, earth, and underworld, the creator of the sky and the sea, men and women, animals and birds, fish and creeping things, trees and plants, and the incorporeal beings who were the messengers that fulfilled his wish and word

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If this is true, how could Akhenaten invent monotheism? If this is true, how is it the Hebrew invented monotheism?

posted 17 February 2005 07:36 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Super car:
Dada Afre, I can see where you are going with your case about monotheism being nothing new in ancient Egypt. There seems to be several implications of this from various sources, but you have to admit that Akhenaten's approach was unique enough to have sparked hostilities towards its implimentation, wouldn't you?

The question now is, was it his monotheistic approach, that was objectionable...or...was his particular "God" the real root of the problem?

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Champollion-Figeac:

quote:

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A few words will suffice to give a true and complete idea of Egyptian religion. It was purely monotheistic, and manifested itself by a symbolical Polytheism

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posted 17 February 2005 04:22 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
I have a hard time believing Egypt was always monotheistic and polytheism was just symbolic, especially when the Egyptians themselves erected temples of statues of various Gods and ALWAYS depicted them on some wall. There were also numerous cults specifically for a God. That's not the sign of something being symbolic...but serious. I think the idea of Egyptian religion spawning all other main religions is absurd with little to no evidence. The little evidence there is isn't definite and can be taken either way. While there are similarities between those quotes and the Judaic/Christian God...that doens't mean that's where it is derived. I think you're looking WAY too much into this. You still didn't answer my question on what this Gods name was.

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This is because you are in denial. Not only is the Judaic/Christian God Egyptian in origin, most of the Bible comes from ancient Egyptian tales and beliefs. For instance, the Egyptian's Tale of Two Brothers is in the Bible. In Interpretation of Dreams Joseph Kaster, an Egyptian scholar and Jew himself, wrote of the biblical story of Joseph and said:

quote:

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The ancient Egyptians placed much importance on dream interpretation. The extent to which it permeated popular culture can be discerned in the Joseph narrative of the Bible; the entire episode has a completely authentic Egyptian background, and is shot through with Egyptianisms-literal translations into Hebrew.

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I could show you countless examples. I think Shaw and Nicholson were just being nice when they said there were "strong similarities" or "parallels". Kaster calls it literal translation.

Anyone who looks into Egyptian religion will realize it's monotheistic in nature. I have reason to believe they called God Onyame or something close to that but I can't be for sure. I'm not surprised you have a hard time believing it. You more than likely grew up a Christian. Of course you're not ready and willing to accept these things.

ANI's confession in the chambers of Ahmet, in the domain of Seker:

quote:

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Osirus is the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

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We assume such concepts are Christian but that is false. I think you should read The Africans Who Wrote The Bible for a better understanding of your faith.

posted 17 February 2005 04:51 PM            

quote:

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The Patriarchal History:
If ancient Israel originated in the aftermath of Akhenaten’s religious revolution, we must also account for the patriarchal history, the stories of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. These stories not only take place centuries before Akhenaten, they also place the Hebrew ancestors in Canaan, not Egypt. These accounts present vivid portraits of colorful characters. They exhibit wide ranges of emotion and personality, display virtues and flaws, describe many highly interesting activities and tell of exciting events. They seem to have few if any counterparts in Canaanite/Mesopotamian mythology.

Where do such fully developed histories come from? Does this vast amount of narrative detail suggest that the biblical authors drew upon folk histories of real characters? There is so much personality in these stories that many scholars find it hard to believe that these patriarchal families were made up out of whole cloth. One need not believe all the events occurred to be tempted by such a view.

Nevertheless, the patriarchal history is false. Consider, for example, this problem. The Book of Genesis ends with the death of Joseph. The story picks up in the Book of Exodus with the birth of Moses. This transition period encompasses several generations and, allegedly, several centuries. In this time Israel grew from a handful of people to over six hundred thousand males and their families. All we are told about this transition is that the Pharaoh feared Israel and reduced them to slavery in order to eliminate any threat.

It is precisely this gap in the history of Israel that is responsible for all the debates about the date of the Exodus. Why does the bible have such a detailed history of Israel's ancestors from Creation to the death of Joseph and such a detailed history of Israel from the birth of Moses to the end years of biblical history, and have such a minimalist description of what occurred in the centuries in between?

One feels compelled to ask: in the several hundred years during which Israel allegedly grew from a small family to a mighty kingdom to an enslaved nation, did nothing of interest happen? Were there no tales worth remembering, no accounts of heroism, no stories of inspiration, no tales of faith challenged and/or lost, no good or bad deeds of note?

Furthermore, at the end of the Patriarchal history, Jacob set the stage for massive conflict and intrigue in this period of missing history. He denied the birthright to his three oldest sons, accusing them of dastardly deeds. He appointed the tribe of Joseph, eleventh in sequence of birth, as his heir designate, but, to Joseph's dismay, the inheritance went to his younger son Ephraim rather than his oldest son Manasseh. And to top it all off, after giving the crown to Ephraim, Jacob then announced that the scepter shall not depart from Judah, his fourth oldest son. Who was supposed to rule Israel, Ephraim or Judah? How did these events affect the children of Israel and their descendants?

How did the sons and the families handle these decisions? Was there anger, joy, resistance, rebellion, acceptance? What went on in those centuries? Why should there a biblical dark ages in the eyes of the scribal redactors when everything else before and after is so clearly illuminated?

The answer is that what preceded the dark ages never existed. True biblical history begins with the Exodus and the patriarchal history is myth, pure and simple. And, in the some of the following chapters we shall set forth the exact mythological sources from which most of the patriarchal history derives.

By way of preview, however, let me briefly outline the argument. Patriarchal history draws upon Egyptian mythology. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and their key family members correspond to a family of popular Egyptian deities associated with the Egyptian god Osiris. Most of the events depicted in the patriarchal accounts come directly from Egyptian literary sources and themes, and we will examine the precise mythological incidents that gave rise to the biblical sources.

If this evidence is as obvious as I suggest, the reader may well be tempted to ask why biblical scholars and Egyptologists failed to uncover these connections. There are a number of reasons for such oversights.

When Israel came out of Egypt, its people brought with them the many stories about Egyptian gods and goddesses, stories that they believed to be true histories of their country. But, because the Israelites were militantly monotheistic, with a strong prejudice against the god Osiris, the deities were transformed into human ancestors. As with any immigrant group, after centuries of immersion in new cultures and surroundings, the settlers adopted the traditions and beliefs of their new neighbors, often integrating their old beliefs with the newly learned traditions. And as the biblical prophets make clear over and over, Canaanite culture exerted a mighty force over the Israelites.

The Egyptian deities, already transformed from gods to heroic human ancestors, came to look less and less like Egyptians and more and more like Canaanites. Atenist religious views melded with local traditions. Over the centuries numerous political and religious feuds developed. Old stories were retold in order to favor one group over another. Then came conquest and destruction. Most of Israel disappeared from history after the Assyrian conquests. Those remaining were captured by Babylon and force fed Babylonian culture and history. Shortly thereafter, the Hebrews were liberated from Babylon by the Persians and close cultural contact existed between these two nations.

In the morass of conflict Israel lost touch with its Egyptian roots. By the time modern scholars came to review the history, the long orthodox religious image of Israel as firmly rooted among Semitic tribes wandering in Canaan and Mesopotamia was fixed in the western mind. Biblical scholars saw no need to apply to Egypt the scholarly intensity of research reserved for the Semitic world. Israel was Canaanite. Biblical history was assumed true, at least in its outline. That the biblical scribes and redactors could have committed such a major error in location never entered the biblical mind.

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posted 17 February 2005 06:55 PM            

We assume such concepts are Christian but that is false. I think you should read The Africans Who Wrote The Bible for a better understanding of your faith

I'm not in denial. I just don't see this stuff as definitive. Espcially when I've never heard anything about Egypt spawning all known religions until now. Usually when strong evidence is provided (Kemet's role in Greece, Black Egyptians) it's met with lots of talk and debate. Yet and still, I've never heard of this. Which means one of two things...either it's not as definitive as you think it is (after all you were the one who posted all that stuff about Horus and look how that turned out). Or two, there are similarities (as I have admitted) but they are not ground-breaking. It's just like "ohh, that's a coincidence." Lots of these claims need to be looked into (as they were in The Pagan Christ). Things are always misinterpreted or sometimes even lied about. I mean you have a jew claiming the Bible was fabricated. Some would seeing as they're not Christians. I mean, I highly doubt it says anywhere that Osirus (you're new "God") is the father, son, and Holy Ghost! Just as it doesn't say anywhere that Horus walked on water or had 12 disciples. You have to realize a lot of that stuff you read isn't real. I mean there are many books out there that try to claim all sorts of bizarre, out-of-this-world things about Egypt that simply aren't real.

There is evidence of Biblical cities, there are people of antiquities who wrote about biblical people. You simply can't take the fact that the Israelites were in Egypt to mean that they borrowed the Egyptian religion. Especially when that's not even where their history begins. The "Egypt/Christian Connection" is on the list of things like "Aliens Built the Pyramids," and "There's a Spaceship Under the Great Pyramid." And every other interesting read about Egypt out there. When authors try to make something out of nothing, and people like you believe it. Again just from the simple fact that this isn't spawning some great debate over the web, in colleges, or anywhere else proves the base of evidence is either flawed or just plain wrong!

And believe me, there are plenty of Christian Egyptologists out there who would jump on anyone that spouted this stuff. Yet and still, not one book has been published (that I know of) to refute these claims...and why is that? Even people like Mary Leftowitz wrote books denouncing Diop's work...because he had strong evidence. This is not strong evidence. The link I provided shows the flaws and plain lies that are created in books. Usually when no one but the author of the book supports his claims...it's usually something fishy about it. I plan on emailing several egyptologists (mabe some christian ones) to see what they have to say about this.

As far as Egypt being monotheisic in nature...well that pretty much contradicts everything the Egyptians wrote themselves about their Gods and how much they worshipped him! I mean I was under the assumption that Akenaton's idea of a mono-religion was met with so much hostility that it got him killed. So how can you claim Egypt was always Monotheisic(sp?)? No Egytologist in the world claims this! But you read it in a book, so it must be true .

Get back to me on this One God's name you keep talking about. I wouldn't be surprised if he was made up.

posted 17 February 2005 07:00 PM            

The Egyptian deities, already transformed from gods to heroic human ancestors, came to look less and less like Egyptians and more and more like Canaanites. Atenist religious views melded with local traditions. Over the centuries numerous political and religious feuds developed. Old stories were retold in order to favor one group over another.

Here we go again! I'd like to have a link to the site you got that from Supercar...thank you.

posted 17 February 2005 07:17 PM            

quote:

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King_Scorpion:

Um, if there's no evidence of the Exodus, or proof that the Israelites were in Egypt...how is is this person making claims he obviously knows nothing about? That story is so fabricated it's not even slightly funny!

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Let me rephrase the evidence portion of the Exodus. There are no evidence of public reference or records of the Exodus. However, there "may" be some clues as to its occurrence. Such an event would have necesitated confrontation with Egyptian authorities, and as you know from Egyptian habbit of record keeping on major confrontations, this is one that they appear to be mute on. If "Isrealites" weren't considered Egyptians, but were known for their distinct identity, we would probably have seen a record of the "Exodus". But we don't. Something fishy here, don't you think? As for the quote in question, I already provided the link earlier, which you purported to have skimmed through. Apparently, you haven't gone through it attentively enough.

posted 17 February 2005 07:21 PM            

People did not literally worship the neteru,and in many cases the temples were symbolic of a ancient Egyptian concept called the zep tepi[first time],and all priests acted out creation. The temple itself was symbolic of the mound of creation.

Understand also what the commoners in Egyptian society praticed was quite different from what the priests did. The commoners were not allowed to go within the temple from where the deity was. The point of the deity was in the center of creation.

posted 17 February 2005 09:02 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:
King_Scorpion, nobody really calls the ancient Egyptians polytheist either. The ancient Egyptians never had a set religion like Islam,Christianity,or any other form.

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Thought Writes:

posted 17 February 2005 09:26 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by King_Scorpion
I'm not in denial. I just don't see this stuff as definitive. Espcially when I've never heard anything about Egypt spawning all known religions until now. Usually when strong evidence is provided (Kemet's role in Greece, Black Egyptians) it's met with lots of talk and debate. Yet and still, I've never heard of this. Which means one of two things...either it's not as definitive as you think it is (after all you were the one who posted all that stuff about Horus and look how that turned out).

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quote:

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Or two, there are similarities (as I have admitted) but they are not ground-breaking. It's just like "ohh, that's a coincidence."

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quote:

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Lots of these claims need to be looked into (as they were in The Pagan Christ). Things are always misinterpreted or sometimes even lied about. [quote]

I agree

[quote]I mean you have a jew claiming the Bible was fabricated. Some would seeing as they're not Christians.

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quote:

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I mean, I highly doubt it says anywhere that Osirus (you're new "God") is the father, son, and Holy Ghost!

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quote:

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Just as it doesn't say anywhere that Horus walked on water or had 12 disciples.

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quote:

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You have to realize a lot of that stuff you read isn't real. I mean there are many books out there that try to claim all sorts of bizarre, out-of-this-world things about Egypt that simply aren't real.

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quote:

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There is evidence of Biblical cities, there are people of antiquities who wrote about biblical people. You simply can't take the fact that the Israelites were in Egypt to mean that they borrowed the Egyptian religion. Especially when that's not even where their history begins.

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quote:

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The "Egypt/Christian Connection" is on the list of things like "Aliens Built the Pyramids," and "There's a Spaceship Under the Great Pyramid." And every other interesting read about Egypt out there.

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quote:

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When authors try to make something out of nothing, and people like you believe it. Again just from the simple fact that this isn't spawning some great debate over the web, in colleges, or anywhere else proves the base of evidence is either flawed or just plain wrong!

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And believe me, there are plenty of Christian Egyptologists out there who would jump on anyone that spouted this stuff. Yet and still, not one book has been published (that I know of) to refute these claims...and why is that? Even people like Mary Leftowitz wrote books denouncing Diop's work...because he had strong evidence. This is not strong evidence.

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The link I provided shows the flaws and plain lies that are created in books. Usually when no one but the author of the book supports his claims...it's usually something fishy about it. I plan on emailing several egyptologists (mabe some christian ones) to see what they have to say about this.

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As far as Egypt being monotheisic in nature...well that pretty much contradicts everything the Egyptians wrote themselves about their Gods and how much they worshipped him! I mean I was under the assumption that Akenaton's idea of a mono-religion was met with so much hostility that it got him killed. So how can you claim Egypt was always Monotheisic(sp?)? No Egytologist in the world claims this! But you read it in a book, so it must be true .

Get back to me on this One God's name you keep talking about. I wouldn't be surprised if he was made up.

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King_Scorpion, are you saying Sir Wallis Budge was not an Egyptologist?

posted 17 February 2005 09:40 PM            

"Israel allegedly came into Egypt with just about seventy males. They lived, according to the bible, mostly in the small territorial area of Goshen. They left Egypt with over six hundred thousand males and their families.

It seems inconceivable that over this time, in a narrow territory, that such a large number of people could have maintained anything such as a tribal structure. Certainly by that time, intermarriage alone, which practice was common in biblical genealogy, would have obviously wiped out anything resembling clear linear family divisions. The biblical Israel emerging out of Egypt would have been divided along class, religious and political lines, not the artificial tribal structure that implies small isolated family clans. How does it happen, then, that this fictional tribal history spans both the mythological and historical portions of Israel's history?

posted 18 February 2005 10:59 AM            

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Originally posted by Super car:
I think Dada Afre has a point that skeptics have to do a research on these, before jumping into conclusions. I for one, don't simply look at a website an say "uhah, this must be true". I look at what I already know, and use my judgement from looking at a variety of sources. All one needs to do in this case, is become really familiar with the Egyptian concept, as Ausar suggested, and then compare with that given in the Bible. You cannot miss it, unless you tried.

[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 18 February 2005).]

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You have to realize though...it's only coming from one point of view. NO ONE else is debating this stuff but the people who are writing the books. Just like no one is debating the alien/Egyptian connection because it is utter B.S.!

Kifaru: That's what I've been trying to tell him. This whole subject is speculative. When an Egyptologist or someone credible comes and makes these claims THEN I'll start thinking about it. But as far as I can tell, these are only theory books.

Tell me something Dada, in The Africans Who Write the Bible did he put any Egyptologists quotes in there or did he just always make claims about something without providing any supporting facts? The reason you believe it is because you want to believe it...and becuase no one else on the other side of the line is refuting it (which wouldn't happen if the evidence was solid).

I believe ANI's confession was sincere.

I believe it wasn't.

The link you provided was unconvincing. I got ANI's confession from one of Diop's books. I don't remember which one, but there is no way I could forget that passage.

Unconvincing...yea sure .

It just proved the entire book was fabricated and can be done anytime by people with agendas. It proved that things may seem to connect but they really don't. Just like it said 'lusa' wasn't even an Egyptian word....I doubt Osirus was ever called the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Just for the simple fact that you don't know a lot about this One God including his name sheds a speculative and questionable light on your claims. All you have are those quotes which you claim are word-for-word from the Bible.

Gary Greenberg. Bible Myth (The Moses Mystery): The African Origins Of The Jewish People

Any book that's called Bible Myth (or something like it) I don't read becuase it obviosuly has a agenda (just like The Pagan Christ).

[This message has been edited by King_Scorpion (edited 18 February 2005).]

posted 18 February 2005 11:28 AM            

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King_Scorpion:
You have to realize though...it's only coming from one point of view. NO ONE else is debating this stuff but the people who are writing the books.

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posted 18 February 2005 01:13 PM            

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Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
You have to realize though...it's only coming from one point of view. NO ONE else is debating this stuff but the people who are writing the books. Just like no one is debating the alien/Egyptian connection because it is utter B.S.!

Kifaru: That's what I've been trying to tell him. This whole subject is speculative. When an Egyptologist or someone credible comes and makes these claims THEN I'll start thinking about it. But as far as I can tell, these are only theory books.

Tell me something Dada, in The Africans Who Write the Bible did he put any Egyptologists quotes in there or did he just always make claims about something without providing any supporting facts? The reason you believe it is because you want to believe it...and becuase no one else on the other side of the line is refuting it (which wouldn't happen if the evidence was solid).

[b]I believe ANI's confession was sincere.

I believe it wasn't.

The link you provided was unconvincing. I got ANI's confession from one of Diop's books. I don't remember which one, but there is no way I could forget that passage.

Unconvincing...yea sure .

It just proved the entire book was fabricated and can be done anytime by people with agendas. It proved that things may seem to connect but they really don't. Just like it said 'lusa' wasn't even an Egyptian word....I doubt Osirus was ever called the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Just for the simple fact that you don't know a lot about this One God including his name sheds a speculative and questionable light on your claims. All you have are those quotes which you claim are word-for-word from the Bible.

Gary Greenberg. Bible Myth (The Moses Mystery): The African Origins Of The Jewish People

Any book that's called Bible Myth (or something like it) I don't read becuase it obviosuly has a agenda (just like The Pagan Christ).

[This message has been edited by King_Scorpion (edited 18 February 2005).]

[This message has been edited by King_Scorpion (edited 18 February 2005).][/B]

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Throughout my debate with you, I haven't cited Dr. Darkwah anywhere. In fact, I've quoted Egyptian Religion (Budge), The Egyptian Dictionary (Shaw & Nicholson), The Interpretation of Dreams (Kaster) and even the famous French Egyptologist Gaston Maspero. I was able to do this because The Africans Who Wrote The Bible has a mainstream bibliography. Again, I obtained ANI's confession from one of Dr. Diop's books. Are you saying all of these Egyptologists are wrong, or are you saying I'm making this all up?

posted 19 February 2005 12:10 AM            

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Originally posted by Dada Afre:
kifaru, If you call quoting reknowned Egyptologists and discussing the monotheistic foundations of Egyptian religion afrocentric, perhaps everything you've ever read about Egypt is afrocentric. Hopefully you can see this has nothing to do with race.

Throughout my debate with you, I haven't cited Dr. Darkwah anywhere. In fact, I've quoted Egyptian Religion (Budge), The Egyptian Dictionary (Shaw & Nicholson), The Interpretation of Dreams (Kaster) and even the famous French Egyptologist Gaston Maspero. I was able to do this because The Africans Who Wrote The Bible has a mainstream bibliography. Again, I obtained ANI's confession from one of Dr. Diop's books. Are you saying all of these Egyptologists are wrong, or are you saying I'm making this all up?

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