posted 14 February 2005 11:37 AM            

Ancient Egypt: Light of the World, Gerald Massey

posted 14 February 2005 05:27 PM            

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King_Scorpion:

All I can read is that he thinks some statue is of Moses...

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posted 14 February 2005 07:41 PM            

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Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
I'm sorry but that's not proof Jesus was created by the Egyptians. I've heard many theories of how Christianity originated in Egpyt (people trying to debunk the religon), but none of it really holds up. I mean yea...there was this spirit the Egyptians worshipped that was the eternal youth and bringer of peace...but that doesnt mean it was Jesus. Nearly all religons have some peaceful person in it...I don't know why people feel the need to single out Christianity.

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Lets see what the Egyptians thought about God

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God is from the beginning, and He hath been from the beginning; He hath existed from old when nothing had being. He existed when nothing else had existed, and what existeth He created after He came into being. He is the Father of beginnings.

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God is One and alone, and none other existeth with Him; God is the One, the One who hath created all things.

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God is the eternal One, He is eternal and infinite; and endureth for ever and aye; He hath endured for countless ages, and he shall endureth all eternity.

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God himself is existence, he liveth in all things and liveth upon all things. He endureth without increase or diminution, He multiplieth Himself millions of times, and he possesseth multitudes of forms and multitudes of members

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God is life, and through Him only man liveth. He giveth life to man, and he breatheth the breath of life into his nostrils.

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posted 15 February 2005 03:19 PM            

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
As a point of information most Biblical scholars see the origin of the old testament as coming from Mesopotamia.

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posted 15 February 2005 04:37 PM            

But somehow examining the Mesopotamian roots of the same, is not anti-Christian?

Also when we examine the Moses legend are we not discussing the Kemetic roots of Judeo Christianity then too?

posted 15 February 2005 05:06 PM            

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Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
Have you ever heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls? I notice when anti-Christains try to debunk the religion, they never mention them. It was discovered that Jesus was a member of a sect of "Holy Men" known as the Essenes. He had nothing at all to do with Egyptian religion. I wouldn't be surprised if all that stuff is made up. Did the Egyptians even refer to their Gods as God? Didn't they just say their names?

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posted 15 February 2005 05:19 PM            

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Originally posted by rasol:
But somehow examining the Mesopotamian roots of the same, is not anti-Christian?

Also when we examine the Moses legend are we not discussing the Kemetic roots of Judeo Christianity then too?

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 15 February 2005).]

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I never said anything about Mesopotamia...Horemheb did. And Moses is even said to have been born and raised in Egypt...I'm not arguing that.

Christianity and Judaism come directly from Egyptian religion. This has been proven countless times.

Yea, and the Atlanteans built the pyramids.

posted 15 February 2005 05:35 PM            

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Originally posted by King_Scorpion:

Yea, and the Atlanteans built the pyramids.

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posted 15 February 2005 06:00 PM            

[This message has been edited by King_Scorpion (edited 15 February 2005).]

posted 15 February 2005 06:05 PM            

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Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
[b]This link pretty much destroys that Christianity/Egypt connection.

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The Africans Who Wrote the Bible

This destroys ANYTHING you present

posted 15 February 2005 06:09 PM            

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Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
Of course...the jews are in the Bible for crying out loud. The whole Old Testement is pretty much about them. The differance though is Jesus...in the New Testement.

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Okay. Since you acknowledge the Judaic connection with Christianity, why then is it far fetched that influences from Judaism has its roots in Kemetic religion from the Amarna period. You don't deny Moses presence in Kemet, or do you? Nobody is saying Jesus himself was in Kemet, and therefore influenced in Kemet; keep that in mind.

posted 15 February 2005 06:16 PM            

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Originally posted by Dada Afre:
The Africans Who Wrote the Bible

This destroys ANYTHING you present

[This message has been edited by Dada Afre (edited 15 February 2005).]

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I've heard about this book, and while I do think the biblical israelites were black (as well as many other people in the Bible including Jesus who had numerous black ancestors), I don't believe books that are made specifically to denounce my religion!! And that link I provided gives ample evidence to debunk that anti-Christian propaganda garbage!

Okay. Since you acknowledge the Judaic connection with Christianity, why then is it far fetched that influences from Judaism has its roots in Kemetic religion from the Amarna period. You don't deny Moses presence in Kemet, or do you? Nobody is saying Jesus himself was in Kemet, and therefore influenced in Kemet; keep that in mind.

So now it's influences from Judiasm? And why would I deny Moses's presense in Egypt when that's also written in the Bible (and Ausar still hasn't explained how that statue is of Moses)?

[This message has been edited by King_Scorpion (edited 15 February 2005).]

posted 15 February 2005 06:21 PM            

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Originally posted by Dada Afre:
Bible Myth: The African Origins of the Jewish People

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Um, I've already stated that I think the Jews/Israelites/Hebrews were black.

http://www.hebrewisraelites.org/

posted 15 February 2005 06:21 PM            

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Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
This link pretty much destroys that Christianity/Egypt connection.

http://hnn.us/articles/6641.html

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posted 15 February 2005 06:24 PM            

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Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
I've heard about this book, and while I do think the biblical israelites were black (as well as many other people in the Bible including Jesus who had numerous black ancestors), I don't believe books that are made specifically to denounce my religion!! And that link I provided gives ample evidence to debunk that anti-Christian propaganda garbage!

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posted 15 February 2005 06:30 PM            

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Originally posted by HERU:
If I remember correctly, the first case of a saviour being born of a virgin mother, dying for our sins and resurrecting was Osirus/Horus. After that, there has been DOZENS of "saviours". Jesus is one of them. It would be foolish to assume the tale of Jesus is totally original.

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Did you even read the link? According to that...there is no evidence Horus was ever virgin born or had 12 followers.

Read the book

Sorry, got too many books on my 'to read" list as it is. Just bought From Babylon to Timbuktu.

posted 15 February 2005 06:36 PM            

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Originally posted by HERU:
There's also no real evidence that shows Jesus was born of a virgin mother and had 12 followers.

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It looks like you have point there.

King_Scorpion what do you make of the following:

Chapter One of The Moses Mystery

posted 15 February 2005 06:50 PM            

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Originally posted by HERU:
There's also no real evidence that shows Jesus was born of a virgin mother and had 12 followers.

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Yea, well take a look at who's following Egyptian religion now and who's following Christianity (millions of people around the world). Last time I checked, Egyptian religion was on the list of 'dead religions' along with Greek Mythology. If anything we should be talking about the obvious connections between the Greek and Egyptian religions instead of Christianity and Egyptian (which really don't have anything in common).

posted 15 February 2005 07:17 PM            

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Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
Yea, well take a look at who's following Egyptian religion now and who's following Christianity (millions of people around the world). Last time I checked, Egyptian religion was on the list of 'dead religions' along with Greek Mythology. If anything we should be talking about the obvious connections between the Greek and Egyptian religions instead of Christianity and Egyptian (which really don't have anything in common).

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Egyptian religion is not "dead". Take a ganders at the language, culture and religions of Africa. The Africans (ie: Egyptians) have everything to do with the background of the Bible and you are obviously shaken up by this.

On the contrary, Christianity and the Bible has a lot to do with the ancient Egyptians:

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God is from the beginning, and He hath been from the beginning; He hath existed from old when nothing had being. He existed when nothing else had existed, and what existeth He created after He came into being. He is the Father of beginnings.

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How could Moses write the first 5 books of the Bible and write about his own death?

Psalms

In The Dictionary of Ancient Egypt, Ian Shaw and Paul Nicholson wrote:

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Akhenaten's hyms to the Aten has been shown to have strong similarities with Psalm 104, but this is probably only an indication that the two compositions belong to a common literary heritage or perhaps even derive from a common Near Eastern orginal

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You can find Akhenaten's Hyms to Aten word for word in the Bible.

Proverbs

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The same reason is usually given for the very close parallels that have been observed between a Late Period wisdom text known as Instructions of Amenemipet son of Kanakhi and the Biblical book of Proverbs, although it has been suggested by some scholars that the writers of Proverbs may have been influenced by a text of the Instructions of Amenemipet itself

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It goes on and on

posted 15 February 2005 07:35 PM            

Here's the thing...if Moses was aligned with Akenaton in his new religion...then why didn't he say so when he wrote several books in the Bible? Why did he create all new names, a new lineage separate from Egypt, and make it seem as if the Egyptian elite were oppressors in some way or another?

Also, a lot of things about what happened long ago will never be fully understood or explained. For the simple fact that it happened so long ago. Which is why I hate it when people don't find evidence and then say "oh, then it must not have happened." Jesus died in his mid-30's scholars agree. He wasn't a flashy man, he was a traveler. There wouldn't be a lot of evidence on him to begin with. There are many unseen and unknown scenerios that play into this when it comes to the Bible. But does that mean it never happened...no.

posted 15 February 2005 07:43 PM            

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Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
I didn't read it all, I just skimmed it...

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I haven't read the book either, but for the excerpts. However, it looks like the author is onto something here. This would mean that, to really find out for sure, you would have to read the "whole" book.

Moreover, Moses' existence is questioned among scholars. But still, there is no reason to disregard his existence.

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King_Scorpion:
if Moses was aligned with Akenaton in his new religion...then why didn't he say so when he wrote several books in the Bible? Why did he create all new names, a new lineage separate from Egypt, and make it seem as if the Egyptian elite were oppressors in some way or another?

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According to the excerpt from the book in question:

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Outline of the Argument to be Presented:

It is one thing to point out that there is no evidence corroborating the biblical account of Israel's early years. It is quite another to say that because of this lack of corroboration one can simply dismiss the biblical claims and substitute whatever theory one wants. After all, absent evidence to the contrary, it is possible that the broad outlines of the biblical history are correct. To argue that Moses and Akhenaten were theological comrades-in-arms and that the first Hebrews were Akhenaten's persecuted followers simply because it is theoretically possible does not make it so. Such coincidences provide no solid proof for challenging what almost all biblical scholars believe to be true. We need hard evidence, irrefutable arguments that prove the case. I provide that evidence in the following chapters.

Chapter Two examines the famous and puzzling birth-death chronology in Genesis 5 and 11. These passages, which provide a continuous chronological link between the births and deaths of twenty-three generations, beginning with Adam at the dawn of Creation and ending with the birth of Abraham in the early part of the second millennium BC, generate much controversy. Scholars casually dismiss this chronology as worthless but in later chapters we will show that this chronology provides a highly accurate record of Egyptian dynastic history.

Chapter Three provides the background material necessary to understand Egyptian chronology and the problems associated with establishing an accurate history of Egyptian dynasties and kings.

Chapters Four through Seven cross reference Genesis chronology with Egyptian dynastic history. The evidence shows that the Genesis birth/death dates derive from Egyptian king-lists and provide an exact one-to-one correlation with the starting dates for Egyptian dynasties and for several important Egyptian kings. The correlations begin with the foundation of the First Dynasty (c. 3,100 BC) and end with the start of the Eighteenth Dynasty over fifteen hundred years later. This chronological record enables us to place the mysterious events surrounding the Exodus in their proper historical context.

Chapter Eight reviews the various problems associated with dating the Exodus from biblical data. Then using the evidence of Genesis-Egyptian date correspondences it places the biblical data into chronological context and resolves the many contradictions. The analysis places the Exodus in 1315 BC, during the coregency of Ramesses I and Sethos I. Such a date means that Moses and Akhenaten were children together, raised and educated at the same time in the royal household of King Amenhotep III.

Chapter Nine provides an overview of historical matters associated with pharaoh Akhenaten, including the nature of his revolution, the deterioration of Egypt's foreign empire under his reign, and the counter-revolution undertaken by Horemheb.

Chapter Ten moves from the biblical accounts of the Exodus and looks at the event through Egyptian eyes, examining ancient Egyptian texts and the writings of other classical historians. The Egyptian materials parallel the biblical story in many areas but reverse the roles of Moses and the pharaoh, making Moses the cruel ruler and Pharaoh the young child who was hidden away and later returned to liberate his people. Reducing the parallel themes to their essential elements we learn how Egyptian mythological and literary motifs helped shape the biblical story of Moses. Placing the Egyptian and classical histories alongside the biblical accounts, we learn that upon Horemheb's death Moses launched a military campaign aimed at restoring the Atenists to the throne but that he failed in the effort and led his followers out of Egypt.

Chapters Eleven through Thirteen place the Patriarchal history in mythological perspective. The evidence shows how the early Israelites adapted Egyptian myths about the god Osiris and his family and transformed them into stories about distant human ancestors, removing them from the magical realm of Egyptian religion and placing them in the hands of the one and only god of Israel. The chapters trace most of the major events in the lives of the Hebrew Patriarchs and set forth many of the Egyptian myths and stories upon which the biblical accounts were based.

Chapter Fourteen examines the matter of the Twelve Tribes of Israel. There we find that even the biblical writers were unsure about how many tribes existed or whether or not they conquered Canaan. The evidence shows that the Exodus group originally included only the two Rachel tribes of Joseph and Benjamin and that at a later time the Rachel group united with remnants of the Greek Sea Peoples and other non-Hebrew Canaanites to form an alliance against Philistine encroachment. This new alliance became the House of Israel but it still did not include the Twelve Tribes. At least three alleged tribes, including Judah, Manasseh and Gad, and perhaps more did not yet exist at this time. We also examine some Egyptian stories that may have been responsible for the idea that Jacob had twelve sons and that these sons formed a political alliance.

Chapter Fifteen summarizes the evidence presented in the preceding chapters.

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posted 15 February 2005 07:44 PM            

On the contrary, Christianity and the Bible has a lot to do with the ancient Egyptians

No, it doesn't! Some similarities yes...derived NO! And Ancient Egyptian religion is dead...deader than dead. And again...since when do the Egyptians refer to their Gods...as God? They always used their names. Like Osirus, or Horus, or Anubis. They never said God because there was no Egyptian diety named God!

You can find Akhenaten's Hyms to Aten word for word in the Bible.

Proverbs

I doubt it's word for word. Highly doubt it. Again, it's just a mere similarity. What, the Israelites can't write their own stuff without it being Egyptian?

posted 15 February 2005 07:49 PM            

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King_Scorpion:

No, it doesn't! Some similarities yes...derived NO! And Ancient Egyptian religion is dead...deader than dead. And again...since when do the Egyptians refer to their Gods...as God?

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posted 15 February 2005 08:43 PM            

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Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
[b]Egyptian religion is not "dead". Take a ganders at the language, culture and religions of Africa. The Africans (ie: Egyptians) have everything to do with the background of the Bible and you are obviously shaken up by this.

On the contrary, Christianity and the Bible has a lot to do with the ancient Egyptians

No, it doesn't! Some similarities yes...derived NO! And Ancient Egyptian religion is dead...deader than dead. And again...since when do the Egyptians refer to their Gods...as God? They always used their names. Like Osirus, or Horus, or Anubis. They never said God because there was no Egyptian diety named God!

You can find Akhenaten's Hyms to Aten word for word in the Bible.

Proverbs

I doubt it's word for word. Highly doubt it. Again, it's just a mere similarity. What, the Israelites can't write their own stuff without it being Egyptian?

[This message has been edited by King_Scorpion (edited 15 February 2005).][/B]

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Those "similarities" show that the gist of Egyptian religion is not dead. People still worship Isis and Osirus in Africa. "God" comes from Budge's translations. In Egyptian Religion Budge wrote:

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The late Dr. H. Brugsch collected a number of epithets which applied to the gods, from texts of all [Ancient Egyptian] periods; and from these we may see that the ideas and beliefs of the Egyptians concerning God were almost identical with those of the hebrew and Muhammadeans at later periods [in history].

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Again, the Egyptians have everything to do with Christianity and the Bible. Their "gods" (ie: neteru) can be explained this way ...

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God himself is existence, he liveth in all things and liveth upon all things. He endureth without increase or diminution, He multiplieth Himself millions of times, and he possesseth multitudes of forms and multitudes of members

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posted 15 February 2005 09:37 PM            

Those "similarities" show that the gist of Egyptian religion is not dead. People still worship Isis and Osirus in Africa. "God" comes from Budge's translations. In Egyptian Religion Budge wrote:

The similarities are small and moot. It's like pulling straw men on the Bible to TRY to connect it to Ancient Egypt. All things don't stem from Egypt! And I believe God is Greek anyway. The Hebrews/Israelites refered to him as Adonai and something else (I forgot).

Again, the Egyptians have everything to do with Christianity and the Bible. Their "gods" (ie: neteru) can be explained this way ...

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God himself is existence, he liveth in all things and liveth upon all things. He endureth without increase or diminution, He multiplieth Himself millions of times, and he possesseth multitudes of forms and multitudes of members

Where are you getting these quotes from? And no where in the Bible does it say God multiplies himself millions of times. God is God...there's only one. Then there's the Holy Spirit...which isn't really a different form but...(it's hard to explain I'll get back to you tomarrow on this). Then there's Jesus, who calls himself the "son" of God. I will get you some articles tomarrow written by theologans(sp?) on this subject.

Now let's look at Egyptian religon...um...Isis, Osiris, Anubis, Thoth, and many other Gods who rule over different things. WAY different from Christianity. And again, they're wording it as if God is one person...and there was no "GOD" in Egyptian religon! So why do you keep giving these quotes on this deity named God?

posted 15 February 2005 10:05 PM            

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Originally posted by Dada Afre:
The stories of Jesus and Horus are very similar, with Horus even contributing the name of Jesus Christ. Horus and his once-and-future Father, Osiris, are frequently interchangeable in the mythos (“I and my Father are one”). The legends of Horus go back to ca. 10,000 B.C.E.

1. Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave/manger, with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
2. He was a child teacher in the Temple and was baptized when he was 30 years old.
3. Horus was baptized by “Anup the Baptizer,” who becomes “John the Baptist.”
4. He had 12 disciples.
5. He performed miracles and raised one man, El-Azar-us, from the dead.
6. He walked on water.
7. Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
8. He was crucified, buried in a tomb and resurrected.
9. He was also the “Way, the Truth, the Light, the Messiah, God’s Anointed Son, the Son of Man, the Good Shepherd, the Lamb of God, the Word” etc.
10. He was “the Fisher,” and was associated with the Lamb, Lion and Fish (“Ichthys”).
11. Horus’s personal epithet was “Iusa,” the “ever-becoming son” of “Ptah,” the “Father.”
12. Horus was called “the KRST,” or “Anointed One,” thousands of years before the Romanized Christ.

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posted 15 February 2005 10:41 PM            

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:
Did you get this from The Africans Who Wrote The Bible?

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Most, if not all of that stuff about Horus is B.S.! Which was partially exposed in the link I provided. I mean he was born on December 25!!!! Get real! That date wasn't chosen for the celebration of Christ's death until recently (whnever Christmas was invented). And I don't even think they had baptism in Ancient Egypt, so how could there be a person who baptized him?! Baptism is a Christian/Catholic thing. There's absolutely no evidence of 99% of those claims.

(I was wrong about my previous post being the last).

[This message has been edited by King_Scorpion (edited 15 February 2005).]

posted 15 February 2005 10:57 PM            

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:
Did you get this from The Africans Who Wrote The Bible?

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No

posted 16 February 2005 05:54 AM            

Plus lets compare the traditions of Sheol[the underworld] with the Kemetian tradition of the Amduat. We find also that in many ways the ancient Egyptian concept of the afterlife is very similar,but also different from what is found in the Old Testament.