posted 17 February 2005 07:31 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Evil Euro:
"Spurdle and Jenkins (1996) also looked at Bantu-Semitic variations to establish genetic affinities and offer a model for the origin of the Lemba. Their study analyzed allele frequencies of Y-linked Restriction Length Fragment Polymorphisms (RLFPs). Ht4 is a typical Negroid haplotype and it is found in the Lemba sample at a frequency of .20, which indicates significant Negroid male gene flow into the Lemba (Spurdle and Jenkins, 1996). Ht7, Ht8, and Ht11 are Caucasoid markers and the Lemba show high frequencies of these markers as well. These haplotypes seem to be typical of Jewish populations but also occur in Asiatic Indians, thus it is not possible to distinguish between Semitic and Asiatic Indian sources with these markers (Spurdle and Jenkins, 1996). The allele frequencies of the Lemba are significantly different from those of the Bantu-speaking Negroid population and the European population but not from those of the Jewish group. Spurdle and Jenkins (1996) conclude that 50% of the Lemba Y chromosomes analyzed appear to be of Caucasoid origin, and 36% appear to be of Negroid origin."

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Lemba people with 50% "Caucasoid" paternal ancestry

Dr Evil Euro, explain to me why Lembas show no Semitic racial features from the Middle East though they have so-called "Caucasoid" mixture and please make up your mind as to what a Caucasoid is, a genetic entity or a skeletal entity.

posted 17 February 2005 08:47 AM            

From SOY Keita:

SOY Keita
Arethusa
26 (1993) pg 329

"Racialists models which imply non-overlapping gene pools, are clearly negated by Professor Angel's work."

posted 04 March 2005 11:42 PM            

That genetic divergence does not appear to be the result of recent gene flow from neighboring groups. - African Y chromosome and mtDNA divergence provides insight into the history of click languages. Knight A, Underhill PA, Mortensen HM, Zhivotovsky LA, Lin AA, Henn BM, Louis D, Ruhlen M, Mountain JL.

Juhoansi

Hadza

posted 06 March 2005 07:54 AM            

as thalassemia and sickle cell distribution historically coincided with malarial regions (the diseases provided protection from malaria), doesn't this disprove the supposition of migration spreading these diseases? ?

NO. To address this, we must consider when the mutations probably occurred, and factors such as how frequently mutations of any kind naturally occur in human populations generally. (In a large population, depending on the gene, it could take dozens or hundreds of generations for a mutated genetic trait to become widespread.) Moreover, the extent of malaria historically present in Sicily (in swamps, for example) would have to be carefully studied in archival records which provide little information on the subject because malaria was rarely considered an epidemic worth noting. We know that malaria existed in Sicily into the 1940s, but before then it had been much less frequent here since the Middle Ages. Interestingly, the Saracens (Moors), one of the peoples whose arrival probably brought these genes to Sicily, were experts at irrigation and swamp drainage and had, immediately prior to their arrival in Sicily, resided in dry regions. In the case of Sicily, the population of the island was so sparse under the native peoples (Elymi, Sicans, Sicels) when the Phoenicians and Greeks arrived circa 800 BC that many genetic traits must necessarily be attributed to mass colonisation by these "foreign" peoples.

posted 06 March 2005 07:58 AM            

From East Africa

and from West Africa:

posted 06 March 2005 08:03 AM            

Genes, peoples, and languages L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza

posted 06 March 2005 08:13 AM            

Anthropologist Loring Brace even believes that while the ancestor's of modern man evolved in Ethiopia 150,000 years ago.....

Herto Man -
That splendid Ethiopian specimen is a good candidate for being an ancestor of Ethiopians, but not Europeans.

Instead, Brace believes: Neanderthal cave man is more closely related to modern Europeans

If so, Europeans are even more of a genetic hodgepodge.

posted 06 March 2005 08:20 AM            

quote:

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“Blood-factor analysis, for instance, shows many traits that cut across racial boundaries in a purely clinal fashion with very few if any "breaks". (A cline is a gradient of change, such as from people with a high frequency of blue eyes, as in Scandinavia, to people with a high frequency of brown eyes, as in Africa [and southern Europe].

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posted 06 March 2005 05:01 PM            

When lies are brought out into the open it provides the truth with an opportunity to 'strike!'.

posted 06 March 2005 05:26 PM            

For all its pretensions to expanding our vision, the Afrocentric movement is not propelled by a desire to bring about any significant enrichment of our American culture. What Afrocentrists almost always want is power--the power to define. no matter how flimsy their cases might be.

As with most movements built on conspiracy theories, only the sources of argument and the "proof" provided by Afrocentrists are acceptable; all else is either defined as willfully flawed or brought to debate solely in the interest of maintaining a vision of European domination throughout history and within the province of ideas. Thus, the worst insult is that critics are "Eurocentric." When charged with shoddy scholarship, the Afrocentrist's retort is that his or her purportedly revolutionary work arrives through means of research and assessment outside "European methodology."

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
Bring it!

When lies are brought out into the open it provides the truth with an opportunity to 'strike!'.

"You can run but you can't hide" - Joe Louis.

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posted 06 March 2005 05:31 PM            

Walker describes Afrocentrism as a form of totalitarian groupthink, devoid of historical accuracy.

Professor Walker is a respected African American Historian.

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
Uh, has to be semi-coherent at least, otherwise we ignore, but...thanks for bumping the thread Abobo.

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posted 06 March 2005 05:33 PM            

posts should also be relevant, try harder, or go be off-topic elsewhere please. thanks for the thread bump all the same.

posted 27 March 2005 08:35 AM            

The geneticists found that the proportion of Lemba men carrying the genetic signature of Cohanim was about 10 percent, similar to the percentage found among Jewish men around the world and much higher than found in the general population. Moreover, the Cohen Modal Haplotype appeared in over 50% of one particular group of Lemba-the Buba clan. http://www.genomicart.org/genome-chap5.htm

Professor Mathiva, senior Buba Clan leader.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2706israel.html

Jon Cohen Meets the Buba:

He referred me to a Buba Lemba in Johannesburg, and after a few more phone calls, I had secured an invitation from Peter Mbelangwa to visit him at home. Whereas 56 percent of Lembas from the Buba clan have 17 of the 17 markers that constitute the Cohen modal haplotype , Goldstein found that I have only 16, making me a "one-step neighbor." http://slate.msn.com/id/79372

Geneticists speak of lineages, or haplotypes, when they describe the different subgroups that have descended from our common ancestors. The old distinctions between what were once called races persist in everyday speech, but they are becoming obsolete and as far removed from science as the once exalted study of alchemy.

posted 29 March 2005 04:25 PM            

According to Erroneous E's BOTTOM LINE:
accompanying maps group Lemba with or near "Caucasoid" populations, away from "Negroids."

Indeed, on Erroneous E's select map the Lemba here are even closer to the Ethiopians and Egyptians then they are to Zulu.

This is why S. Mohammad asked: why not circle the Lemba as well, along with other "Sub-saharans?"

Indeed if one aknowledges the Lemba affinity to other Black Africans....so far away on the "Erroneous one's" map, you might just as well draw a broader circle around Lemba, Ethiopians and other "sub-saharans" too.

Predictably when made to face the reality of the typical South African features of the Lemba, Erroneous E blatantly reverses himself, now proclaiming... "Lemba have negligible admixture." [so much for the "Bottom Line" ]

While we wait for Erroneous E. to invent more LAUGHABLE excuses for irresolvable contradictions.-

Science DOES provide clear and coherent answers for the non-racist mind:

The Lemba of Africa have a substantial genetic contribution from peoples of the Middle East, Jewish people in fact who apparently arrived in South Africa 2,000 years ago; nobody's sure exactly when-bringing genes with them which have made a substantial contribution to the gene pool of the Lemba. They look just like other southern Africans.

All those genes that have been put into the Lemba gene pool have had virtually no effect on their morphology.

The genetic changes that produce the morphological change might be fairly small. You can get a very small genetic change that can have a big effect on the organism's morphology or conversely you can have a lot of genetic changes that have no effect on the organism's morphology -Biologist Christopher Wills [PH.d], University of California

Caucasoid genes don't exist.

posted 30 March 2005 08:05 AM            

quote:

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Erroneous E wrote: the findings of the study I posted ARE CLEAR:

"Ht7, Ht8, and Ht11 are Caucasoid markers and the Lemba show high frequencies of these markers"

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Yeah, it's clear alright. Erroneous E, CLEARLY determined to make a fool out of himself.

continue to parrot Dienekes. moron! - S. Mohammad.

posted 31 March 2005 08:11 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
Case of the disappearing caucazoid genes

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No, it's the case of your nonexistent negroid brain.

Old Vague Information: Lemba = ~50% Caucasoid Y-chromosomes.

posted 31 March 2005 08:26 AM            

New Specific Information - Erroneous E is a racist fibbing idiot.

Continue to Dienekes pseudo anthropology blog, moron.

posted 31 March 2005 09:41 AM            

quote:

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change the subject or refuse to engage the topic, which he is likely unfamiliar with at any rate.

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posted 31 March 2005 09:54 AM            

Throw turds every chance he gets (the same insults over and over)

Spout bizarre historical ideas that nobody believes in. Wants to challenge 500 years of historical scholarship with his GED.

posted 31 March 2005 01:58 PM            

quote:

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Trust me rasol, there is no way someone like you could insult someone like me.

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posted 31 March 2005 02:59 PM            

Buba clan Lemba included...

The lack of phenotypical difference among the clans further emphasizes Dr. Christopher Wills point.....

all those genes that have been put into the Lemba gene pool have had virtually no effect on their morphology.

The genetic changes that produce the morphological change might be fairly small. You can get a very small genetic change that can have a big effect on the organism's morphology or conversely you can have a lot of genetic changes that have no effect on the organism's morphology

As well as Dr. Keita's point: racialists models which imply nonoverlapping gene pools......are outdated. Populations should be viewed processually as dynamic entities over time and not “static” entities. The presence of M35/215 lineages and the Benin sickle cell variant in southern Europe illustrates this well.

Caucazoid genes don't exist.

posted 31 March 2005 03:42 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
All twelve Lemba clans are Black Africans with a shared phenotype...

Buba clan Lemba included...

The lack of phenotypical difference among the clans further emphasizes Dr. Christopher Wills point.....

all those genes that have been put into the Lemba gene pool have had virtually no effect on their morphology.

The genetic changes that produce the morphological change might be fairly small. You can get a very small genetic change that can have a big effect on the organism's morphology or conversely you can have a lot of genetic changes that have no effect on the organism's morphology

As well as Dr. Keita's point: racialists models which imply nonoverlapping gene pools......are outdated. Populations should be viewed processually as dynamic entities over time and not “static” entities. [b]The presence of M35/215 lineages and the Benin sickle cell variant in southern Europe illustrates this well.

Caucazoid genes don't exist.

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 31 March 2005).][/B]

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What's interesting is that these lemba jews have 17/17 "cohen" Jewish gene haplotypes. The article seems to imply that they are the purest of the Jews. I don't understand why we are trying to connect them to the European jews, how about connection the European jews to them since they seem to have a higher percentage of the cohen haplotype.

posted 31 March 2005 03:47 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Keins:
What's interesting is that these lemba jews have 17/17 "cohen" Jewish gene haplotypes. The article seems to imply that they are the purest of the Jews. I don't understand why we are trying to connect them to the European jews, how about connection the European jews to them since they seem to have a higher percentage of the cohen haplotype.

Guys give me you opinion. Did in misinterpret this article?

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posted 31 March 2005 04:48 PM            

quote:

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What's interesting is that these lemba jews have 17/17 "cohen" Jewish gene haplotypes. The article seems to imply that they are the purest of the Jews. I don't understand why we are trying to connect them to the European jews, how about connection the European jews to them since they seem to have a higher percentage of the cohen haplotype.

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Ironies abound. The excitement over CMH predates the discovery of the haplotype in the Lemba. Some felt ecstatic over the prospect of being able to genetically identify their Jewishness.....but this also caused and alarm bell to sound within other members of the Jewish community - genetically Jewish? Sounds like another potential pretext for targeting Jews.

And then there's the issue of Israel and how many European Jews actually have a biological connection to "Palestine", and other issues.

What does it mean to be Jewish, exactly?

The Lemba seem to have healthy attitude about it.....

It's like...we already knew we were Jewish, we didn't need you to tell us that, and we know we are Black Africans, because we have two eyes and can see. So...get a life and quit nagging us!

That's a healthy attitude.