posted 15 September 2005 10:58 AM            

it seems to be another ramp,

the population of siwa are berber: true.

the berbers of siwa are twareg: false.

the berbers of siwa are blue: false (they tend to wear white clothes (the men)).

posted 15 September 2005 11:23 AM            

quote:

---

the berbers of siwa are twareg, false

---

No not taureg -> Tehenu.

The Egyptians called neighboring Libya Tehenu. Its inhabitants had dark skin and curly hair. - Ahmed Fakhry, `Siwa Oasis', p. 76.

quote:

---

it seems to be another ramp,

---

The only ramp in this thread is your false statement that there are no Black Berber.

Tehenu

posted 15 September 2005 11:40 AM            

quote:

---

The Egyptians called neighboring Libya Tehenu. Its inhabitants had dark skin and curly hair. - Ahmed Fakhry, `Siwa Oasis', p. 76.

---

posted 15 September 2005 11:44 AM            

quote:

---

this is a good quote, only what you have to do is geving that depict where that judgment is based on.

---

posted 15 September 2005 12:02 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
[QUOTE]this is a good quote, only what you have to do is geving that depict where that judgment is based on.

---

The historical, linguistic, and genetic evidence sighted throughout this thread - none of which has been refuted in any way. [/QUOTE]
you are still saying "unrefuted". and i really don't see how your claims are correct and unrefuted.

you can prove that with geving an ancient egyptian depict showing the tehenu as black people, with cruly hair. do it !

posted 15 September 2005 12:12 PM            

quote:

---

you are still saying "unrefuted". and i really don't see how your claims and unrefuted.

---

The linguistic, genetic, and historical information provided is unrefuted because you have not and can not dispute it.

Asking for other evidence than has been provided, is not the same thing as refuting that which has been provided.

posted 15 September 2005 12:19 PM            

linguistic evidence ?

according to you, the population of lebanon have to be black because they are speaking an afro-asiatic language. is this true ? no = refuted evidence.

historical evidence ?
i truly didn't see any historical evidence. but i gave a egyptian depict showing the libyans [the ancient name of the berbers] as fair-skinned people. = refuted.

posted 15 September 2005 12:28 PM            

quote:

---

Mazigh writes: according to you, the population of lebanon have to be black because they are speaking an afro-asiatic language.

---

Nope, never said any such thing.....and I requested that you produce a quote instead of making up straw arguments, but you never did produce the alleged quote.

Why is that?

quote:

---

rasol asks: Really? Please quote me on that directly; or admit that you've been reduced to distortion in a desparate attempt to defend your Berber mythology.

---

We're still waiting.

posted 15 September 2005 01:10 PM            

and therefor i said, if this is true, the population of lebanon have then to be black, because they are speaking an afro-asiatic language wich originate from east africa.

given that the population of lebanon undeputed are not black. you can't claim that the languistic data supports the blackness of the berbers.

i ask you to give any egyptian depict showing the berbers as dark-skinned people. don't forget that the tamahou are considered to have been were blondish, fair-skinned and blue-eyed.

posted 15 September 2005 01:12 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mazigh:
you didn't say directly that the population of libanon are black.

---

No I didn't, so stop making false statements to that effect.

quote:

---

i meant that you are claminig that berbers are black, because they speak an afro-asiatic language

---

Please either produce a quote saying precisely that, or admit that no such quote exists, and that you are distorting.

posted 15 September 2005 01:35 PM            

Genetics shows that many black Berber groups are indeed related to Afrasian speakers in the East.

The question shouldn't be how these black people got their Berber languages but how the white people got them. Genetics also show that white Berbers have a Europeans ancestry and despite whatever Supid-Euro's misgivings, their E3 also originated from the East.

As far as archaeology, I don't see how the Capsians are the originators of Berber but I can easily see how they aquired it. Any other archaeological proof for the movement of Berbers Rasol or anyone else will have to provide some for me please.

Linguistically it can be seen that the Egyptian language phonologically is intermediate between Berber and Cushtic. I can see this already in certain words like Tama or Tehene which are root words also found in the Berber language.

posted 15 September 2005 02:29 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
There seems to be some miscommunication.

---

While I've noticed communication problems with Mazigh earlier, what is clear, is that he is definitely on a roll, to create Berbers as some single ethnic group with a single language. I suspect that he hopes to create a mythological single ethnic or political group, whom he can ascribe some "cradle of civilization" to, while relating to them.

quote:

---

Djehuti:
Rasol made no such statement that just because someone speaks an Afro-Asian language, that the person is black.

---

Undoubtedly. Mazigh is misquoting in order to produce red herrings, which essentially amounts to lying.

quote:

---

Djehuti:
Make no mistake however it is a known fact that Afro-Asiatic originated in Africa. There are white, blonde, blue-eyed Berbers but there is no doubt these people are not indigenous to the continent.

---

Actually, I beg to differ. These Berbers predominantly carry African E3b lineages, followed by J lineages (from more recent migrations), but with predominantly Eurasian maternal ancestry. That is a clue to their mixed heritages. In the final analysis, these Berbers are just as "indigenous" [ethnic groups that developed in situ, within the continent] as are the darker skinned ones.

quote:

---

Djehuti:
It would make no sense that black Berber speakers were some how "Berberized" if the Berber languages itself had the same origins as Chadic, Egyptian, Omotic, and Cushitic.

---

"Berberized" is what makes no sense. As I pointed out earlier, "Berber" languages are Afrasan languages that are closely related. There is no single "Berber" language, as per Mazigh; ethnic Berber speakers have "distinct", but related languages under the Berber language bracket. So, the idea of "berberizing" [never heard of it until now] is just comical.

quote:

---

Djehuti:
Genetics shows that many black Berber groups are indeed related to Afrasian speakers in the East.

---

All "Berber" groups are Afrasan speakers, and can trace their paternal lineages predominantly back to east Africa, where their languages also originate.

quote:

---

Djehuti:
The question shouldn't be how these black people got their Berber languages but how the white people got them. Genetics also show that white Berbers have a Europeans ancestry and despite whatever Supid-Euro's misgivings, their E3 also originated from the East.

---

Well, the latter part of that statement should be the focus, because once that is grasped, it doesn't become mystical as to why these light skinned Berbers speak their indigenous Afrasan languages.

posted 16 September 2005 04:57 AM            

what is then the languistic evidence for the berber blackness ?

note: i would like to avoid the genetic related discussions, because i don't now alot or even nothing about that genetic evidences or whatever it is. i even read that the berbers are related the miditerranean peoples [who are not black], the modern egyptians and the populations of the iberian peninsula.

note: rasol, yet, i didn't get the egyptian depict of the black tehenu where ahmed fakhri his descrption is based on ?

posted 16 September 2005 07:22 AM            

quote:

---

I did hear, indeed, what I will now relate, from certain natives of Cyrene. Once upon a time, they said, they were on a visit to the oracular shrine of Ammon, when it chanced that in the course of conversation with Etearchus, the Ammonian king, the talk fell upon the Nile, how that its sources were unknown to all men. Etearchus upon this mentioned that some Nasamonians had once come to his court, and when asked if they could give any information concerning the uninhabited parts of Libya, had told the following tale. (The Nasamonians are a Libyan race who occupy the Syrtis, and a tract of no great size towards the east.) They said there had grown up among them some wild young men, the sons of certain chiefs, who, when they came to man's estate, indulged in all manner of extravagancies, and among other things drew lots for five of their number to go and explore the desert parts of Libya, and try if they could not penetrate further than any had done previously. The coast of Libya along the sea which washes it to the north, throughout its entire length from Egypt to Cape Soloeis, which is its furthest point, is inhabited by Libyans of many distinct tribes who possess the whole tract except certain portions which belong to the Phoenicians and the Greeks. Above the coast-line and the country inhabited by the maritime tribes, Libya is full of wild beasts; while beyond the wild beast region there is a tract which is wholly sand, very scant of water, and utterly and entirely a desert. The young men therefore, despatched on this errand by their comrades with a plentiful supply of water and provisions, travelled at first through the inhabited region, passing which they came to the wild beast tract, whence they finally entered upon the desert, which they proceeded to cross in a direction from east to west. After journeying for many days over a wide extent of sand, they came at last to a plain where they observed trees growing; approaching them, and seeing fruit on them, they proceeded to gather it. While they were thus engaged, there came upon them some dwarfish men, under the middle height, who seized them and carried them off. The Nasamonians could not understand a word of their language, nor had they any acquaintance with the language of the Nasamonians. They were led across extensive marshes, and finally came to a town, where all the men were of the height of their conductors, and black-complexioned. A great river flowed by the town, running from west to east, and containing crocodiles.

---

posted 16 September 2005 07:24 AM            

quote:

---

rasol,

what is then the languistic evidence for the berber blackness ?

---

Now you're asking a question instead of misquoting so, that is progress.

What the linguistic evidence tells us is that Berber language and people originate in East Africa, and not in NorthWest Africa.

These languages and people spread from North East Africa to NorthWest Africa.

NorthWest African berber are largely West European maternally.

Start with those facts.

Then we can discuss the different physical character of the diverse Berber Ethnic groups, ranging from the East African looking Siwa, to the European looking Kabyle.

If we want to discuss this in a purely scholarly way, we must try to be objective, and leave the myth-making aside.

I know this is difficult because you're dealing with your own folk. And really, I can't say I blame you much if you reject scientific evidence, on emotional grounds.

posted 16 September 2005 08:10 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Now you're asking a question instead of misquoting so, that is progress.

What the linguistic evidence tells us is that Berber language and people originate in East Africa, and not in NorthWest Africa.

These languages and people spread from North East Africa to NorthWest Africa.

NorthWest African berber are largely West European maternally.

---

is that your languistic evidence ?!
i didn't misquote anything, you just couldn't understand this:

quote:

---

you didn't say directly that the population of libanon are black. i meant that you are claminig that berbers are black, because they speak an afro-asiatic language wich originate from east africa.

and therefor i said, if this is true, the population of lebanon have then to be black, because they are speaking an afro-asiatic language wich originate from east africa.

given that the population of lebanon undeputed are not black. you can't claim that the languistic data supports the blackness of the berbers.

---

posted 16 September 2005 08:32 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by tdogg:
The History of Herodotus, Book II
Does this story not speak of black-complexioned people of Libya?

---

first at all, the nasamonians aren't a libyan race, but a libyan tribe [see: the ancient berber (libyan) tribes in this forum]. and Libya means the country of the libyans/the berbers, from morocoo to the western borders of the ancient egypt.

herodotus speak in that part, about a distance of days, and even people who couldn't understand. this means there are no berbers/libyans any more. but black africans.

posted 16 September 2005 08:49 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Now you're asking a question instead of misquoting so, that is progress.

---

quote:

---

Mazigh writes: i didn't misquote anything, you just couldn't understand this: i meant that you are claminig that berbers are black, because they speak an afro-asiatic language

---

Incorrect. Evidently you don't understand what misquoting is.

When you attribute to someone a statement or claim that they in fact, never made, you are misquoting.

You were asked to produce the quote to support your remarks.

You continue to fail to do so.

Every time you make that above remark...attribute it to me, but fail to produce the quote to back it up....you are misquoting.

quote:

---

Djehuti writes:
Rasol made no such statement that just because someone speaks an Afro-Asian language, that the person is black

---

This is correct Mazigh. Since others understand what was and was not said, you have no excuse to continue misquoting.

I won't discuss with someone who refuses to address what is said, and makes up phony quotes - known as straw arguments - and addresses those instead. That's what people do when they can't dispute the facts.

If you want to continue this discussion...then stop misquoting.

posted 16 September 2005 08:57 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by tdogg:
The History of Herodotus, Book II
Does this story not speak of black-complexioned people of Libya?

---

Those black people couldn't be understood by the nasamonian, because they didn't speak the libyan/berbe language.
those black people are mentioned by herodotus as dwarfish people. this mean they weren't libyan, because herodotus that the libyans were the hugest people in the world, and the egyptians are in the second rank.

that only can show that herodotus and the nasamonian youth wern't familiar with the black people.

i believe this the same case with the etheopians/nubians.

posted 16 September 2005 08:58 AM            

quote:

---

is that your languistic evidence ?!

---

Yes.

It is direct evidence provided by linguists such as Christopher Ehret that Berber originates in East Africa and not in NorthWest Africa.

This supports the Encylopedia article's statement to that effect.

You have been trying to refute it for two days but the best you have done so far is to evade addressing it.

posted 16 September 2005 09:06 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Yes.
It is direct evidence provided by linguists such as Christopher Ehret that Berber originates in East Africa and not in NorthWest Africa.
This supports the Encylopedia article's statement to that effect.
You have been trying to refute it for two days but the best you have done so far is to evade addressing it.
The article stands unrefuted.

---

everyone would understand with that fact, that you believe that the berbers are black because they originated from east africa and not from north west africa.

posted 16 September 2005 09:32 AM            

quote:

---

firstly, i'm not misquoting nor quoting, but concluding.

---

When you attribute your conclusions to someone else, then you are misquoting. Stop misquoting.

quote:

---

that you believe that the berbers are black because they originated from east africa and not from north west africa.

---

This just demonstrates that you knew all along that you were misquoting.

But, let's move on....

quote:

---

i believe the bebers originate from east africa

---

quote:

---

and may more exact from the region of the modern ethiopia.

---

quote:

---

because not all the people who originate -on the basis of the languistic data- from east africa are black

---

You continue to misunderstand what the Encylopedic article is saying. I can only assume the misunderstanding is intentional as a form of denial of unpleasant truth.

The article is not saying that all people who ever descended from East Africans are Black - as this would ultimately include all people all over the world, regardless of their present skin color.

The article Is saying -

* that East Africans themselves are and always have been Black.

* that East African Berber are and certainly were originally Black.

* that East African Berber, black Berber, were the original Berber.

Whether Lebanese, or NorthWest Africans, or Japanese are white or green or purple is completely irrelevant to this as they are not East Africans, and they do not ge their white/green/purple skin color from East Africa.

In the case of the NW African Berber they get their skin color from their Western European - and therefore non Berber speaking - maternal ancestors.

Your objection is so revealed to be off-point and does not refute any fact stated in the article.

Bottom line:

posted 16 September 2005 09:40 AM            

what the article is saying needs to be corrected. because it has nothing to the with eastern berbers, in their modern day nor in thier ancient history registred by the ancient egyptian drawers.

posted 16 September 2005 09:51 AM            

quote:

---

if my conclusion is irrelivant, that is to due to irrelivence of the languistic evidence

---

The linguistic evidence is relevant to the East African origin of the Berber.

Your "conclusions" are completely irrelevant to both the facts presented and the basis for stating them.

quote:

---

what the article is saying needs to be corrected.

---

Why? You refuted nothing actually stated in the article. You are really only arguing over your own tortured conclusions, rooted in broken logic, to defend a mythological view of the Berber, and having no bearing on the article in question.

posted 16 September 2005 09:54 AM            

emruz hubam!

your statement "i won't believe that the arabs and the hebrews were black" is interesting in that they sure are not European.
What do you think the high percentage of the "cohanim gene" show in the Lemba people shjow vis a vis the modern occupiers of former Palestine?

What u seem to allude to is that it can go one way without another but many times the truth is the grey area in question.

posted 16 September 2005 10:00 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by yazid904:
[B]mazigh,
...

---

i guess you misfollowed the discussion, because i didn't spoke on the european berbers anytime.

the berbers are fair-skinned africans. Who claims the contrast has to show the proof.

posted 16 September 2005 10:07 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mazigh:
yazid, don't forget that the name of africa is a berber word .

---

..but the blackcentrist* will claim it is a black word.

posted 16 September 2005 10:10 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mazigh:

..but the blackcentrist* will claim it is a black word.

*blackcentrist: because afrocentric is wrong since the word doesn't refer to the "blackists", and since those people aren't interested in the african history, but in the black history.

---

Ok. Let's assume all the above is true and so nullify the intended distraction.

Meanwhile, back on topic.....

posted 16 September 2005 10:29 AM            

the ancient eastern berbers: tehenu, tamahou, libou, meshwesh were rather blondish than black.

the languistic evidence was irrelevant, since the origin of the berbers isn't concerned. and doesn't show any berber blackness.

the genetic evidence show that the berbers are related to the miditerranean people, the iberian people and the modern egyptians, i read. and all of them aren't black. but i can't discuss here about, because i'm not faimiliar with that data.

the pictures you give aren't reliable, and valueless, sinc you don't show how they are berbers. and you also tend to give pictures of desert berbers who are sun-burned and mixed with the blacks, like as the example of the mali's berber twareg who aren't eastern berbers in any case.

you didn't gave any ancient egyptian drawing showing the libyans as black people.

you didn't explai the fairess of the four fair-skinned libyans having two feathers.

you also didn't respond why the tamahou (an ancient berber tribe) are considered to have been fair-skinned, and even oric bates conisered them as blond-haired, blue-eyed and fair-skinned.

posted 16 September 2005 11:07 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mazigh:
the modern eastern berbers are absolutely not black.

---

quote:

---

the ancient eastern berbers: tehenu, tamahou, libou, meshwesh were rather blondish than black.

---

Those above statement relates no facts, and indeed is factually in error -

The Tehenu:
The Egyptians called neighboring Libya Tehenu. Its inhabitants had dark skin and curly hair. - Ahmed Fakhry, `Siwa Oasis', p. 76.

The Tamahou:

According to the legend...they (the Ancient Egyptians) wished to represent the
inhabitants of Egypt and those of foreign lands. Thus we have before our eyes the image of the various races of man known to the Egyptians... the last one is what
we call flesh-colored, a white skin of the most delicate shade, a nose straight or slightly arched, blue eyes, blond or reddish beard, tall stature and very slender,
clad in a hairy ox-skin, a veritable savage... he is called Tamhou. - Champollion the Younger, [letters to his brother]

Libou, and Libya refers to the 'west of egypt' in general, and not to one people, and not to a language group either, and therefore is not a synonym for Berber.

quote:

---

the languistic evidence was irrelevant, since the origin of the berbers isn't concerned.

---

Berber is a language group so of course linguistic evidence is relevant. Go tell Christopher Ehret that linguistic evidence is irrelevant to Berber origins.
Just because you can't refute it, does not make it irrelevant.

quote:

---

the genetic evidence show that the berbers are related to the miditerranean people

---

Genetic evidence from Cavelli Sforza - Genes languages and peoples - shows that the Taureg Berber of West AFrica are most closely related to the indigenous East Africans of the Nile Valley - specifically the Beja. Who are known as the Medijay from old Egypt.....

Taureg most closely related to:
a) Beja 135
b) Sudanese 240
c) Amhara 278
d) Tigri 320
e) Cushitic 352

This is in accord with the linguistic evidence of the East African origin of the Berber. Do you have any specific genetic evidence to the contrary.

Sources?

quote:

---

but i can't discuss here about, because i'm not faimiliar with that data.

---

quote:

---

the pictures you give aren't reliable

---

You can't deal with the reality of Black berber and so you have made several far fetched claims, including that the pictures from your source link were "fabricated."

As ever, you make blatantly false statements and offer no supporting evidence.

quote:

---

you also didn't respond why the tamahou.

---

Sure I did, and again in this thread via Champollion, but I'm bored repeating myself, so if you like, I will repost something of relevance from Ausar.....

posted 16 September 2005 11:11 AM            

quote:

---

Ausar wrote:
Speakers of Amazight go back 7000 years. They are the Imazigen
of Ta Mazgha (Berbers of North Afrika). Amazight is an Afrikan
language of the Afro-Asian group. The Afro-Asiatic linguistic
phylum developed somewhere between the south-eastern Sahara and
the Horn and began splitting at least 8000 years ago.

Branches and probable date of split:
Kushitic - 8th millenium BCE
Egyptian - before the 7th millenium BCE
Omotic - 7th millenium BCE
Hausa - 7th millenium BCE
Semitic - 6th or 5th millenia BCE
Amazigh - 6th or 5th millenia BCE
(I. M. Diakonoff, Afrasian Languages, Moscow 1988)

Herodotus described Libyans as indigenees of Afrika. Egyptian
records list Libyans or Lebou of two types, the Tehenou and the
Temehou (people created light/white skinned). This is simply
recognizing that there was no uniform phenotype in ancient
Tamazgha.

It is not saying there was only one phenotype among the Lebou.

Tehenou and Tamahou were not the same ethnic type. The first Lebou people that the Egyptians refered to were the Tehenou.
In color paintings they are dark brown.

They were the local blacks of Libya. They were not Nilotics nor Bantu nor Sudanese.
They were a local Libyan ethnic group. (G. Moller, Die Aegypten
und ihre libyschen Nachbaren, ZDMG, Liepzig 1924 pg 78.)

Oric Bates who wrote on the Eastern Libyans records Afrikoid
features. He says that before 12th dynasty Egyptians colored
Tehenou dark brown. The Eastern Libyans, London 1914, pp 43-45.

C. M. Daniels makes a similar report in The Garamantes of
Southern Libya, Wisconsin 1970, pg 27.

Later in time the Tamahou begin to appear in Egyptian paintings.
They are creamy colored often with light hair and eyes. This
is the type that absorbed and replaced the Tehenou.
(W. Holscher, Libyer und Agypter Beitrage zur Ethnologie und
Geschichte Libyscher Volkerschaften, AFU 5, Gluckstadt 1955)

Surely it is an injustice to the resurgance of Amazigh (Berber)
self-determination to deny this aspect of the ethno-history
of Tamazgha by writing the Tehenou out of history or denying
that they were dark and they were the first Libyan Imazighen.

---

posted 16 September 2005 12:14 PM            

quote:

---

You have already been shown Black Berber from Siwa. Your comment makes absolutely no sense.

---

rasol

quote:

---

The Tehenu:
The Egyptians called neighboring Libya Tehenu. Its inhabitants had dark skin and curly hair. - Ahmed Fakhry, `Siwa Oasis', p. 76.

---

rasol

quote:

---

The Tamahou:

According to the legend...they (the Ancient Egyptians) wished to represent the
inhabitants of Egypt and those of foreign lands. Thus we have before our eyes the image of the various races of man known to the Egyptians... the last one is what
we call flesh-colored, a white skin of the most delicate shade, a nose straight or slightly arched, blue eyes, blond or reddish beard, tall stature and very slender,
clad in a hairy ox-skin, a veritable savage... he is called Tamhou. - Champollion the Younger, [letters to his brother]

---

I don't know where you are speaking about. do you speak about the tamahou as libyan tribe or anything others ?

quote:

---

Libou, and Libya refers to the 'west of egypt' in general, and not to one people, and not to a language group either, and therefore is not a synonym for Berber.

---

quote:

---

The name "Libya" derives from the ancient Egyptian term "Lebu", referring to Berber peoples living west of the Nile, and adopted into Greek as "Libya". In ancient Greece, the term had a broader meaning, encompassing all of North Africa west of Egypt, and sometimes referring to the entire continent of Africa.(wikipedia)

---

the libou were a berber/libyan tribe:

quote:

---

Libu An ancient Libyan tribe which took several regions in western Egypt. ]http://www.hostkingdom.net/alpha_3.html

---

this means that the libou were a libyan tribe, not another word for the libyans. the libyans were an old word to refer to the modern berbers:

quote:

---

The Greek called them Libyans, Romans referred to them as Africans, Numidians and Moors; the Arabs would dub them Berbers ]http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/Berbers.htm

---

the libou was thus a berber tribe, since they were a libyan tribe, and the name libyan referd to the modern berbers.

quote:

---

Connus depuis l’antiquité pharaonique sous les noms de Lebu, Tehenu, Temehu, Meshwesh, les Berbères subsistent dans un immense territoire qui commence à l’ouest de l’Égypte ]http://www.mondeberbere.com/histoire/camps/origines.htm

---

the egyptian word for "west" was "ament" (the world of the spirits), and the feathers were the egyptian hyroglive for the word "west".

rasol:

quote:

---

Berber is a language group so of course linguistic evidence is relevant. Go tell Christopher Ehret that linguistic evidence is irrelevant to Berber origins.
Just because you can't refute it, does not make it irrelevant.

---

rasol

quote:

---

I got them from your source which listed the distinct Berber ethnic groups with pictures they deemed representative.

You can't deal with the reality of Black berber and so you have made several far fetched claims, including that the pictures from your source link were "fabricated."

As ever, you make blatantly false statements and offer no supporting evidence.

---

posted 16 September 2005 12:38 PM            

quote:

---

rasol:You have already been shown Black Berber from Siwa. Your comment makes absolutely no sense.

---

quote:

---

mazigh: and you have been showd non-black siwans.

---

You claimed and I quote:

quote:

---

there are no black berber

---

You've been shown pictures of Black Berber, including those from your own source links.

It's simple...

Either admit there are Black Berber and retract your false claim.

Or present proof that the photos shown are not of Berber.

posted 16 September 2005 12:50 PM            

quote:

---

The Tehenu:
The Egyptians called neighboring Libya Tehenu. Its inhabitants had dark skin and curly hair. - Ahmed Fakhry, `Siwa Oasis', p. 76.

---

quote:

---

I read something other: the ancient egyptians were brown, and the tehenu were fairer than the egyptians.

---

What you claim to have read has no credibility without a reputable source reference.

quote:

---

I don't know where you are speaking about. do you speak about the tamahou as libyan tribe or anything others ?

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The famous quote comes from Champollion the Younger who desciphered the Rosetta Stone. If you are unfamiliar with something so basic, then how can you claim to be knowledge about references to Tamahou in ancient Kemetic texts?

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that is a common fout. the libou were a tribe

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Nope. Libou referenced different peoples in ancient Kemetic literature - Tamahou, and Tehenu among others. The very reason for the distinct names is to distinguish different groups of them.

You offer no proof that they constitute a 'tribe' in ancient Egyptian texts.

posted 16 September 2005 12:53 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
What must be remembered is that the first Lebu (Libyan) people mentioned by the Egyptians was the Tehenu. Reference to the Tehenu go back to early part of the Old Kingdom and many scholars speculate that the Egyptians have known about them since predynastic times.

As for the Tamaho (white, blonde Berbers) on the other hand, the earliest reference to them is in the Late Kingdom. One must assume that the latter-- the Tamaho, are late-comers.

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posted 16 September 2005 12:57 PM            

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Either admit there are Black Berber and retract your false claim.
Or present proof that the photos shown are not of Berber.

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posted 16 September 2005 12:57 PM            

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relevant for their origin

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not for their blackness.

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Disagree?

Simple.

Produce indigenous whites of East Africa.

posted 16 September 2005 01:04 PM            

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Originally posted by Mazigh:
when i give a link, i refer exeptionally to what i quoted.

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Your link is quoted precisely to the effect that Touareg are Berber, and says so, and shows them....

caption says: Touareg Berber of Mali

Your source is consistant with the parent article and all the evidence presented.

Denying the evidence is not the same as refuting it.

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Mazigh writes: unbased images

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Unbased? That is a nonexistant buzz-word in support of a blatant fib [that there are no Black Berber].

posted 16 September 2005 01:08 PM            

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Originally posted by Mazigh:
the libou were a tribe.
libyan was a general name for the ancient berber tribes.
the teheno are depicted in pre-dynastic drawings, and called in the earliest egyptian inscriptions.

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The Libu was an overall general term for peoples to the West of the Egyptians! The Tehenu were not described as "fair" but as as the same color as the Egyptians! There has been no evidence of white Libu until the New Kingdom with the appearance of the Tamahu. 'Tamahu' is an Egyptian phrase meaning "people made white" or white people.

posted 16 September 2005 01:32 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
The Libu was an overall general term for peoples to the West of the Egyptians! The Tehenu were not described as "fair" but as as the same color as the Egyptians!

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the egyptian wrote that one chief of the libou attacked the tehenu, and destroyed them.

thus, the libou were an apart tribe, than the other libyan. the name libou is also used to refer to all the libyan tribes by the egyptians, like as it is the same case with the tehenu. but, the libou were generally an apart tribe. the libou gave their name to the libou in the greek period.

posted 16 September 2005 01:36 PM            

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it is not safe to explore the origin of the berbers through taking the berbers of mali as example. those people are mixed. because they live with the black africans.

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* The Berber originate in East Africa

* You say - specifically Ethiopia.

Fine.

Exactly what do you think these Ethiopian originated Berber were, if not Black Africans?

The genetic evidence I presented to you showed you that the Taureg are most related precisely to Sudanese and Horn East Africans. All these people are Black.

The Northwest AFrican Berbers are maternally West European - and that is why they are less closely related to their East African forebears than the Taureg.

posted 16 September 2005 02:17 PM            

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i persnally find it so strange to generalize the features of the twaregs of mali on the berbers. however mali wasn't and isn't berber.

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Your concept of Berber is mythological, and as such, defies all logic.

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i told you that the lebaneses are etheopian originated people

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Incorrect,the modern Lebanese/Syrans are of predominently West Asian origin.

Also your original and very different comment was:

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Lebanese speak an afro-asiatic language

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posted 16 September 2005 02:19 PM            

I don't necessarily think the Tuaregs are as mixed as many people think. The Tuaregs did not intermarry with local Western African females because they are matriarchical;thus I could never seen Tuaregs intermarrying with local females to pass the lineage since they are matrilineal people.

The elite Tuaregs look just like eastern African groups. Also most of the Tuaregs when they migrated to Mali and Mauritania did incorporate people like the Haratin in their camp. The Tuaregs have certain ethnic designations when it comes to certain types of occupations. Tuaregs make all their vassals do menial work and thus Haratin are cultivators.... and so on. Haratin are not desendants of slaves either;but aboriginal Saharans who were absorbed into the Tuareg structure.

Please note also that Tuareg people go by different Kels. Different Kels amongst the Tuareg have different origins. People need to understand Tuareg culture before they comment on it.