posted
I'd be interested to here Muslims' views on the punishment of stoning for adultery.
Do you think it is applicable today? If so, why? Are there other less-drastic punishments for this crime? Who has the right to impose this punishment? Who has the *responsibility* to impose this punishment?
I'd like to keep this a purely religious discussion please, not about culture, because I do know that has a lot of influence. I want to know how Islam deals with adultery and stoning, irrespective of cultural influences. Thank you.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Thank you Humanized. It answered many of my questions but also raised more.
1. There are verses that have been abrogated from the Qur'an? Why and by whom?
2. If they are abrogated in word, why is their *ruling* not considered abrogated?
3. Whose responsibility is it to inflict this punishment?
4. What is the rationale behind adultery being such a horrific crime that a human must pay for it with his life?
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
in the end of the same page 5 questions/answers. try them
may i ask you 2 little questions ! what is justice? and why there is Punishment in the first place? (in general )
Posts: 817 | From: Egypt | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Humanized: in the end of the same page 5 questions/answers. try them
may i ask you 2 little questions ! what is justice? and why there is Punishment in the first place? (in general )
You can ask me anything, Humanized.
IMO, justice is the upholding of what is fair. Fair treatment in accordance with laws. Reward that equals the circumstances or punishment that equals the circumstances. Usually based on a moral or legal code.
Why is there punishment? That is a good question. You punish someone so they don't commit the same offense. You perhaps hope that the threat of a punishment will prevent people from committing a particular offense. You punish out of the need for retribution.
And what I'm about to say is pure reflection of my American upbringing. But I believe the only punishment that should be meted out to people who break the law is the removal of that person from society. Practically speaking, that means prison. This protects society from the criminal as well as deprives the criminal of all the benefits he got from society.
Other than that, I think all judgment, reward, and punishment for moral behavior is solely God's jurisdiction.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Amnesty International is unconditionally opposed to the death penalty and other forms of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment, and campaigns for these to be removed from all penal codes without exception. The organization takes no position on the ideological or religious basis of any penal code.Posts: 392 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Kamal211: who are Amnesty Internation
History of Amnesty International
Amnesty International was founded in 1961 by Peter Benenson in England. Benenson had long been active in the area of human rights. In 1959 he had founded Justice, an organization of British lawyers who advocated observation of and adherence to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
In November 1960, two Portugese students were arrested by the Portugese dictatorship and sentenced to seven years in prison for the crime of raising glasses in a public toast to freedom. Benenson was very bothered by this incident, and decided that the only way to make a difference for these "prisoners of conscience" would be to bombard the Portugese goverment with letters. By the beginning of 1961, this initiative was launched into a full fledged campaign on behalf of all religious and political prisoners.
Two men joined Benenson in his mission: Eric Baker and Louis Bloom. They called their campaign "Appeal for Amnesty" and their basic goal was to promote freedom of opinion.
On May 28 of that year, Benenson published a soon to be famous article in the London Observer. It was entitled "The Forgotten Prisoners" and resulted in a worldwide call to arms for this cause. Within several days, similar or identical articles were printed in France, the U.S., Germany, Switzerland, Denmark, Sweden, Holland, Italy, South Africa, Belgium, Ireland, and India. Letters and donations began to pour in.
The original system was that people who wished to get involved would "adopt" a specific prisoner. In addition to writing letters to the government involved on the prisoner's behalf, they would also correspond with the prisoner and his family.
Benenson eventually changed the name of his organization to "Amnesty International." He had a British artist design an emblem-- a candle encircled by barbed wire. The inspiration for this emblem was the Ancient Chinese proverb, "Better to light a candle than to curse the darkness." By the end of 1962, Amnesty International had branches throughout Europe, as well as in Australia and the United States.
By the early 1970's, Amnesty International had changed. Benenson was no longer affiliated. The focus was still prisoners of conscience, but the impact was far greater. Human rights had now become a valid issue in the eyes of the whole world. Amnesty International's position was reaffirmed when Jimmy Carter ran for president and made human rights issues the focus of his presidency.
Today, Amnesty International's main office remains in London. The Secretary General is presently Pierre Sane. There are more than one million members worldwide.
quote:Originally posted by Humanized: in the end of the same page 5 questions/answers. try them
may i ask you 2 little questions ! what is justice? and why there is Punishment in the first place? (in general )
Why is it always women who get stoned? Why is only women who get punished for adultry?
Somehow men are not held accountable for adultry, is this because they are allowed to have more than one wife, so its considered "try before you buy"?
Posts: 5744 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Humanized: in the end of the same page 5 questions/answers. try them
may i ask you 2 little questions ! what is justice? and why there is Punishment in the first place? (in general )
Why is it always women who get stoned? Why is only women who get punished for adultry?
Somehow men are not held accountable for adultry, is this because they are allowed to have more than one wife, so its considered "try before you buy"?
did i ever mentione that stoning for women only??
In Islam all laws/punishments are talking about Men and Women equally.
No you didn't mention it, and I find that suspect.
And in reality the Quran has little to do with how punishments are doled out in a community.
I believe the Quran is divine law (for the right people) but I don't believe Quranic law is administered equally.
Posts: 5744 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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There is a reference to this punishment in the Bible, for instance. It reads: "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die." (Deuteronomy 22: 22) and also in Leviticus, we find the following verse:"If a man commits adultery with another man's wife-with the wife of his neighbor-both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death" (Leviticus 20: 10).
quote:
Jesus fulfills the punishment aspect of the old law. He also shows a new path in dealing with these sins in two ways. This clear and better path goes to the human heart, the root of the sin.
First, Jesus zeros in on the root cause of adultery. In the famous Sermon on the Mount he says this about adultery and lust:
5:27 "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
Immediately, this raises the stakes so high that all corporeal punishment is removed; otherwise, all of humanity would kill each other with legalized stoning. These two verses say that sexual sin is no longer a civil crime or any kind of crime. As usual with Jesus, he goes to the heart of the sin. Adultery and other sexual sins begin in the mind, so the solution to them must also begin in the mind.
Muhammad, on the other hand, believes in imposing sexual holiness from the outside of a person’s mind by flogging and stoning. But this has never worked throughout human history because sexual sin is too deeply entrenched in human nature. Moreover, Muhammad’s harsh punishments do not bring healing to a family and subsequently to society, but they tear the family and society apart. Also, it is only logical that such punishments would drive the sin underground; indeed, according to reliable hadiths that Maududi cites, Muhammad encouraged his early followers to keep their sins or "crimes" a secret. This is no long-lasting solution, either.
Second, Jesus goes beyond pointing out the spiritual root cause, and offers a spiritual solution, which is clarified in the Gospel of John 8:1-11. This passage says that some religious leaders, wanting to trap Jesus between his message of love and forgiveness and his respect for the Torah, brought a woman caught in adultery and made her stand in their midst. They reminded Jesus that the law of Moses orders that she should be stoned. He stooped down and wrote in the dirt, contemplating. They kept questioning him, perhaps stones in hand. What would he do? He then spoke the famous lines: "He who is without sin should throw the first stone" . One by one, from the oldest to the youngest, the accusers left. Alone with her, Jesus straightened up and asked her: "‘Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?’ ‘No one, sir,’ she said. ‘Then neither do I condemn you.’ Jesus declared, ‘Go and leave your life of sin’". The spiritual solution is forgiveness without condemnation. Jesus never intended to reinstitute the punishment of stoning sinners, or even their flogging, as Muhammad would like to reinstitute an old-new law. Jesus intended to rise above such shallow solutions. web pagePosts: 392 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Humanized: in the end of the same page 5 questions/answers. try them
may i ask you 2 little questions ! what is justice? and why there is Punishment in the first place? (in general )
Why is it always women who get stoned? Why is only women who get punished for adultry?
Somehow men are not held accountable for adultry, is this because they are allowed to have more than one wife, so its considered "try before you buy"?
did i ever mentione that stoning for women only??
In Islam all laws/punishments are talking about Men and Women equally.
No you didn't mention it, and I find that suspect.
And in reality the Quran has little to do with how punishments are doled out in a community.
I believe the Quran is divine law (for the right people) but I don't believe Quranic law is administered equally.
I agree, it is hundereds of years of ignorance that made this sonomod. yet I am not talking about the way of stoning .. I really don't know about whether it is different for men than women, it needs quite a research. however your word are very true according to todays administration.
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by sonomod: I believe the Quran is divine law (for the right people) but I don't believe Quranic law is administered equally. [/QB]
sa7...
yes i agree too....
you do beleive the Quran to be divine in law......wat u mean for the "right people" Posts: 2457 | From: U | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by sonomod: I believe the Quran is divine law (for the right people) but I don't believe Quranic law is administered equally.
sa7...
yes i agree too....
you do beleive the Quran to be divine in law......wat u mean for the "right people" [/QB]
According to fiqh it is people that chooses to make god's law dominate for example stoning, should never be done in any place that doesn't put islam laws as there law even if someone wants to be stoned he shouldn't (any other muslim should never stone'em) because the laws are not choosen by the people as a penelty also only the governer can excute or put the penality , yet this doesn't mean that he had paid his dues, this is so people don't go and do whatever, there is dues that will be paid in the end of days. "yet repention can be salavation always" and this is god's merci Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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What was abrogated? Who did we know it was abrogated?
One may ask “What is abrogation?” Abrogation means removal. It may involve the text or the ruling or both. There is a great Divine wisdom behind every incident of abrogation, part of which is to assert that the Islamic legislation, unlike man-made ones, was not established at once; rather, all its teachings and rulings were set gradually. In addition, when abrogating the words of a verse but not its ruling, this serves as a reminder that not all the Divine messages are to be through one channel, i.e. a direct revelation. Rather, part of these messages is to be clarified through the practice and tradition of the Prophet sent to deliver the message.
So the point here is: the practice of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is itself a part of revelation. Almighty Allah explains this saying: (And whatsoever the messenger giveth you, take it. And whatsoever he forbiddeth, abstain (from it). And keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is stern in reprisal.) (Al-Hashr 59: 7) Also Allah says: (…then let those beware who withstand the Messenger's order, lest some trial befall them, or a grievous penalty be inflicted on them) (An-Nur 24: 63).
According to eminent Qur’an exegetes, this verse serves as a strong warning against deviating from the Tradition of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). Imam Ibn Kathir says: “The words ‘the messenger’s order’ refer to his Path, teachings, laws and tradition. Thus, all words and deeds should be weighed according to the words and deeds of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) in the sense that whatever correspond with his words and deeds are accepted and whatever contradicts that should be rejected.”
The abrogated verse stated that “A married man and woman, if they commit adultery, stone them to death.”
This verse states clearly that the prescribed punishment for adultery, which means an illegitimate sexual intercourse between a married man and a woman married to another man is stoning to death. But this offense must be proven either through a confession made voluntarily by the accused or by the testimony of four witnesses who state under oath that they have witnessed the commission of the crime. It's only after this legal procedure that the accused will be punished by lapidation. This punishment is agreed upon by scholars and there is no question about it. In citing proofs for this punishment, scholars of Hadith quote `Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) as saying that he would have written this verse if not for the fear that it would be viewed as tampering with Allah's book.
So we are to bear in mind that the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is a part of the Divine Revelation, indicating that many things were revealed to the Prophet either through inspiration or instruction. Allah tells us in the Qur'an that the Prophet (does not speak out of his own fancy. It is all an inspiration sent down to him.) (An-Najm 53: 3-4) Therefore, what the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, teaches us is part of our religion. It is not something that he has determined by himself. It is certainly revealed to him.
In the Kuwaiti Encyclopedia of Islamic Jurisprudence, we read the following:
Ibn Qudamah wrote: “Muslim jurists are unanimous on the fact stoning to death is a specified punishment for married adulterer and adulteress. The punishment is recorded in number of traditions and the practice of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) stands as an authentic source supporting it. This is the view held by all Companions, Successors and other Muslim scholars with the exception of Kharijites.”
Al-Bahuty said: “The authentic practice of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) supports stoning to death as a punishment specified for adultery. In addition, the verse commanding this punishment was revealed in the Qur’an. Later, it was verbally abrogated but its ruling is still binding. `Umar ibn Al-Khattab (may Allah be pleased with him) said: “Almighty Allah sent Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) with the truth and revealed unto Him the Qur’an. Among the revelation (brought by him) was the verse stipulating that married adulterer and adulteress should be stoned to death. We read, comprehended and understood it. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) acted in accordance with that and so did all of us. I fear, by the passage of time, that some people will say: ‘We do not find this verse in the Qur’an’, and thus they go astray abandoning an obligation given to them by Allah. Stoning to death is a Divine obligation and punishment specified for any married adulterer or adulteress once there is four witnesses or the confession of the accused.”
In another narration, `Umar added: “By the One in Whose hands is my soul, had it not been that people would say: ‘`Umar added to the Book of Allah, I would have reinserted it. It (the verse) read: “A married man and woman, if they commit adultery, stone them to death. This is a punishment from Allah. Allah is Almighty and Wise.”
Finally, we would like to note that there are many incidents in the Sunnah and the life of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) in which the Prophet stoned the married adulterer and adulteress to death. This happened in the case of Ma`iz and the Ghamidi woman. All this makes it clear that the punishment is proven and authentic and is not debatable.
Posts: 817 | From: Egypt | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Thank you for the additional information on this, Humanized. I have done some research myself on this and understand the basics of abrogation. It is very clear that later verses of the Qur'an dealing with the exact same subject may abrogate earlier verses when a disagreement occurs. I understand the Qur'an was revealed over many years and circumstances can change. Such as verses about alcohol.
I am having trouble however, understanding why the verse dealing with stoning was physically removed from the Qur'an, but the legal force of that verse remains. ?? naskh al-tilāwa dūna al-hukm.
I understand that hadith and sunna can make this ruling part of Islamic law, but what were the circumstances surrounding the removal of this verse in the first place? The only thing I can find about it is on anti-Islamic sites and I don't trust the objectivity until I can compare it to pro-Islamic sites.
I don't understand full removal/abrogation from the Qur'an. Was the Prophet (pbuh) told by God to remove this verse? If so, why? When? Before, during, after people documented that the Prophet (pbuh) stoned many people to death for adultery?
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Abrogated??? How sensible, so he/she/it abrogates "instructions" when they don't fit? a good flexible god that is. I would like to abrogate many a passage from the "holy"books..can I do that? If I can, I may perhaps feel more comfortable with your religions and start believing in a good loving "power" that doesn't waste his/her/it's time with trivial earthly matters all the time or keep a huge library of books for each one of us and has thousands of accountants marking "points" every time we do something good !!
Posts: 1516 | From: Cairo | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: Thank you for the additional information on this, Humanized. I have done some research myself on this and understand the basics of abrogation. It is very clear that later verses of the Qur'an dealing with the exact same subject may abrogate earlier verses when a disagreement occurs. I understand the Qur'an was revealed over many years and circumstances can change. Such as verses about alcohol.
I am having trouble however, understanding why the verse dealing with stoning was physically removed from the Qur'an, but the legal force of that verse remains. ?? naskh al-tilāwa dūna al-hukm.
I understand that hadith and sunna can make this ruling part of Islamic law, but what were the circumstances surrounding the removal of this verse in the first place? The only thing I can find about it is on anti-Islamic sites and I don't trust the objectivity until I can compare it to pro-Islamic sites.
I don't understand full removal/abrogation from the Qur'an. Was the Prophet (pbuh) told by God to remove this verse? If so, why? When? Before, during, after people documented that the Prophet (pbuh) stoned many people to death for adultery?
hi snoozin
i didnt bring anything new , it was in the same page i gave to you earlier .
"The abrogated verse stated that “A married man and woman, if they commit adultery, stone them to death.”
This verse states clearly that the prescribed punishment for adultery, which means an illegitimate sexual intercourse between a married man and a woman married to another man is stoning to death.But this offense must be proven either through a confession made voluntarily by the accused or by the testimony of four witnesses who state under oath that they have witnessed the commission of the crime It's only after this legal procedure that the accused will be punished by lapidation. This punishment is agreed upon by scholars and there is no question about it. In citing proofs for this punishment, scholars of Hadith quote `Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) as saying that he would have written this verse if not for the fear that it would be viewed as tampering with Allah's book"
Posts: 817 | From: Egypt | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by primak: Abrogated??? How sensible, so he/she/it abrogates "instructions" when they don't fit? a good flexible god that is. I would like to abrogate many a passage from the "holy"books..can I do that? If I can, I may perhaps feel more comfortable with your religions and start believing in a good loving "power" that doesn't waste his/her/it's time with trivial earthly matters all the time or keep a huge library of books for each one of us and has thousands of accountants marking "points" every time we do something good !!
Always nice to see a post from Primak.
I kind of forgot about this stipulation on "updating" oneself.
Mind you there is a swarm of hell-bent, right-wing, illiterate scumbags in my neck of the woods I'd like to personally update.
Posts: 5744 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Humanized: This verse states clearly that the prescribed punishment for adultery, which means an illegitimate sexual intercourse between a married man and a woman married to another man is stoning to death.But this offense must be proven either through a confession made voluntarily by the accused or by the testimony of four witnesses who state under oath that they have witnessed the commission of the crime It's only after this legal procedure that the accused will be punished by lapidation. This punishment is agreed upon by scholars and there is no question about it. In citing proofs for this punishment, scholars of Hadith quote `Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) as saying that he would have written this verse if not for the fear that it would be viewed as tampering with Allah's book"
Oh, Humanized, I'm probably being really dim on this. But if it was abrogated from the Qur'an, that means that at one time, it was part of the Qur'an, right??? And if it was there, how did it get removed and by whom?
I'm more interested in the history of the development of this verse than what the Sunnah prescribes. Does that make any sense? Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
by whom??? by god/allah/elohim/yahve/ of course! He decided he had made a mistake and sent out a winged weirdo to mo and asked him to remove it from the book ( he had not yet written) or to wipe it out of his memory, or something. Did you like the adventures of sindbad??
Posts: 1516 | From: Cairo | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Humanized: This verse states clearly that the prescribed punishment for adultery, which means an illegitimate sexual intercourse between a married man and a woman married to another man is stoning to death.But this offense must be proven either through a confession made voluntarily by the accused or by the testimony of four witnesses who state under oath that they have witnessed the commission of the crime It's only after this legal procedure that the accused will be punished by lapidation. This punishment is agreed upon by scholars and there is no question about it. In citing proofs for this punishment, scholars of Hadith quote `Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) as saying that he would have written this verse if not for the fear that it would be viewed as tampering with Allah's book"
Oh, Humanized, I'm probably being really dim on this. But if it was abrogated from the Qur'an, that means that at one time, it was part of the Qur'an, right??? And if it was there, how did it get removed and by whom?
I'm more interested in the history of the development of this verse than what the Sunnah prescribes. Does that make any sense?
its exactly like whats happening right now!! we are more concerned with the Stoning more than the very strict conditions concerning the stoning.
the verse shows that the deafault punishment for adultery for married people is stoning. while other verse which is not abrogated explaining the conditions and the difference between lashing and stoning and the reasons for both. i hope its clearer now Posts: 817 | From: Egypt | Registered: Jul 2005
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Do you think they have a large "bic" factory up there? where do they get the ink from?or the paper for that matter? Who does their binding..I know a very good binder on sharia sherif who would be thrilled to get their contract.
Posts: 1516 | From: Cairo | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Humanized: its exactly like whats happening right now!! we are more concerned with the Stoning more than the very strict conditions concerning the stoning.
the verse shows that the deafault punishment for adultery for married people is stoning. while other verse which is not abrogated explaining the conditions and the difference between lashing and stoning and the reasons for both. i hope its clearer now
No, it doesn't make it any clearer to me, I'm sorry. I know that's how the law is interpreted and/or applied, but I am looking for the fact pattern upon which the interpretation is based.
This issue is bothering me so much it's making me physically ill. If I cannot learn everything there is to know about it so that I can come to my own peace about the issue, I'm giving up. Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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What was abrogated? How did we know it was abrogated?
One may ask “What is abrogation?” Abrogation means removal. It may involve the text or the ruling or both. There is a great Divine wisdom behind every incident of abrogation, part of which is to assert that the Islamic legislation, unlike man-made ones, was not established at once; rather, all its
I did not ask What is abrogation. What I would like to know is which verses were abrogated and how we knew about them. How did it all happen.
I would advise to be cautious this time and avoid what you did with the FGM thread. If you don't know..don't answer.
Posts: 637 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Humanized: This verse states clearly that the prescribed punishment for adultery, which means an illegitimate sexual intercourse between a married man and a woman married to another man is stoning to death.But this offense must be proven either through a confession made voluntarily by the accused or by the testimony of four witnesses who state under oath that they have witnessed the commission of the crime It's only after this legal procedure that the accused will be punished by lapidation. This punishment is agreed upon by scholars and there is no question about it. In citing proofs for this punishment, scholars of Hadith quote `Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) as saying that he would have written this verse if not for the fear that it would be viewed as tampering with Allah's book"
Oh, Humanized, I'm probably being really dim on this. But if it was abrogated from the Qur'an, that means that at one time, it was part of the Qur'an, right??? And if it was there, how did it get removed and by whom?
I'm more interested in the history of the development of this verse than what the Sunnah prescribes. Does that make any sense?
its exactly like whats happening right now!! we are more concerned with the Stoning more than the very strict conditions concerning the stoning.
the verse shows that the deafault punishment for adultery for married people is stoning. while other verse which is not abrogated explaining the conditions and the difference between lashing and stoning and the reasons for both. i hope its clearer now
Which verse, can you post it?
Posts: 637 | Registered: Apr 2005
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What was abrogated? How did we know it was abrogated?
One may ask “What is abrogation?” Abrogation means removal. It may involve the text or the ruling or both. There is a great Divine wisdom behind every incident of abrogation, part of which is to assert that the Islamic legislation, unlike man-made ones, was not established at once; rather, all its
I did not ask What is abrogation. What I would like to know is which verses were abrogated and how we knew about them. How did it all happen.
I would advise to be cautious this time and avoid what you did with the FGM thread. If you don't know..don't answer.
hi Auto i havent written anything and i wont after what happend on FGM
you have the web site and you can ask the Moftis there though it was very clear in the fatwa - posted on islamonline.
Posts: 817 | From: Egypt | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by primak: Hi sonomod.Had a hellish week.
Do you think they have a large "bic" factory up there? where do they get the ink from?or the paper for that matter? Who does their binding..I know a very good binder on sharia sherif who would be thrilled to get their contract.
Hmm you are in somewhat luck. My grandfather was the Vice President of a papermill in Ashland before Boise Cascade bought them out and shut down the plant.
Detroit still does alot of paper business. Getting most paper from Canada.
And I think Bic is a Mexico/Asia operation. Not in the USA for the most part except for corporate offices.
Posts: 5744 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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What was abrogated? How did we know it was abrogated?
One may ask “What is abrogation?” Abrogation means removal. It may involve the text or the ruling or both. There is a great Divine wisdom behind every incident of abrogation, part of which is to assert that the Islamic legislation, unlike man-made ones, was not established at once; rather, all its
I did not ask What is abrogation. What I would like to know is which verses were abrogated and how we knew about them. How did it all happen.
I would advise to be cautious this time and avoid what you did with the FGM thread. If you don't know..don't answer.
hi Auto i havent written anything and i wont after what happend on FGM
you have the web site and you can ask the Moftis there though it was very clear in the fatwa - posted on islamonline.
islamonline has some of the worst sheiks in the universe issueing fatwas.
many are from Sudan and have backed the government on their genocide in Dafur.
And one of the worst Sheiks of all time is Kutty who is based out of Toronto. Lets put it this way Kutty remarks are being used as a guideline for Rand, Middle East forum, and other rightwing think tanks in Washington, policies. That isn't a good resume builder.
Posts: 5744 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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What was abrogated? How did we know it was abrogated?
One may ask “What is abrogation?” Abrogation means removal. It may involve the text or the ruling or both. There is a great Divine wisdom behind every incident of abrogation, part of which is to assert that the Islamic legislation, unlike man-made ones, was not established at once; rather, all its
I did not ask What is abrogation. What I would like to know is which verses were abrogated and how we knew about them. How did it all happen.
I would advise to be cautious this time and avoid what you did with the FGM thread. If you don't know..don't answer.
hi Auto i havent written anything and i wont after what happend on FGM
you have the web site and you can ask the Moftis there though it was very clear in the fatwa - posted on islamonline.
So it is fair to say that none of the people replied in this thread have solid knowledge of the facts regarding abrogation in Quran. The Internet is full of contradictory statements and ideas.
I read the article posted on islamonline and I was not impressed at all. I, like snoozin, like specific answers.
One more thing I didn't notice till now. They are actually issuing fatwas on that website. I thought it was just general questions answered by some scholars in a form of discussion. But Fatwas! Posts: 637 | Registered: Apr 2005
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try " newcomer"...she/he seems to be quite learned on the subject.
You can also get some incredible explanation from gana or bibo and as a bonus a detailed description of hell!
worried of what might happen to you if you decide to flirt a bit in cairo?? don't. we do not apply these barbaric laws here.
Posts: 1516 | From: Cairo | Registered: Oct 2001
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try " newcomer"...she/he seems to be quite learned on the subject.
You can also get some incredible explanation from gana or bibo and as a bonus a detailed description of hell!
worried of what might happen to you if you decide to flirt a bit in cairo?? don't. we do not apply these barbaric laws here.
Yeah, by asking these questions means I'm a serial adulterer and I'm looking for a way to save my eyes and chunks of skin flying off as I'm buried above my breasts in the dirt so that they don't become exposed as I'm being killed by an entire community.
You'd be really happy Primak....my Western feminist mentality probably has no chance of coming to terms with this issue....
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Does your "Western feminist mentality" ever ask you why women don't seem to be promised some sort of paradise in islam? unless you consider being one of 70 concubines -sharing a man- some sort of reward for being a good believer-ess.
Posts: 1516 | From: Cairo | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
is that the only issue in islam that triggers your "western feminist mentality"???? What do you think of inheritance laws?? Wake up...western feminist dozer..you should switch your snoozer "on"!You are lucky to be with a relaxed guy who doesn't give a damn about that BS but you still insist - and are obsessed - with pulling him down to the dark ages with you.
Posts: 1516 | From: Cairo | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:Originally posted by primak: Does your "Western feminist mentality" ever ask you why women don't seem to be promised some sort of paradise in islam? unless you consider being one of 70 concubines -sharing a man- some sort of reward for being a good believer-ess.
Couldn't you just be happy gloating on the first issue without trying to dig with a second? Do you have *any* heart in there? Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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next you'll ask him to move to saudi with you - the poor guy - and maybe spend your fridays looking at public lashings or perhaps stoning!! hope you get lucky and get to see a decapitation, yeah ...with a sword!!! like in the movies.
Posts: 1516 | From: Cairo | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:Originally posted by primak: You are lucky to be with a relaxed guy who doesn't give a damn about that BS but you still insist - and are obsessed - with pulling him down to the dark ages with you.
You've got me confused with someone else. Get your reverts straight Primak. Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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try " newcomer"...she/he seems to be quite learned on the subject.
An interesting referral there! Not quite sure how to take it though seeing the source of it!?
Although this is a subject I do have some personal views on, I didn't join the discussion earlier as there are some technical details I am not sure about on this issue and so I didn't want to say anything that could be misleading.
But the way I understand the issue (that of a physical punishment/stoning for adultery, with a more severe punishment for a married person as they have a legitimate way to have sexual intercourse) is that it is looking at society as a whole and the needs of society, and its not at individuals, and this is what makes it more difficult for someone with a western frame of reference to grasp. It is looking at preserving the cohesion of the society and the structure/preservation of the family, and that is being put as a priority over the needs/desires/weaknesses of the individual. The punishment is there more in a deterrent role to indicate the severity of the crime on the fabric of society. However the conditions for the punishment, being witnessed by four trustworthy witnesses, makes it virtually impossible to carry out as it would mean that the act was being committed in such a public place for it to be described as an obscenity in many eyes. In a way I suppose it can be compared to the level that has been sunk to in Britain that I was reading about, that I think they said was called "dogging", where people actually go out deliberately to have sex in public parks, and places like that, so they can get the additional "thrill" of maybe being observed by casual passers-by!!!!
The other aspect is that Islam teaches that, due to its inherent justice, sins will be punished in some form or other, in this world or the next, and so a punishment in this world gives a person reprieve from a punishment in the Hereafter. And this would be a reason that could encourage some people to confess to their sin to avoid what may come after, as was shown in the Hadith when the woman repeatedly came to the Prophet confessing her sin and he kept on telling her to go away until after she had delivered her baby, then until after she had breastfed it for the required two years. But she still came back confessing to her sin and she was given the stipulated punishment.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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well, you really seem to know what you're talking about and also seem quite convinced -although this is beyond my understanding in view of your obvious intelligence.
However, you have not really answered Snoozin's question have you? Voila , quoting Snoozin : "I don't understand full removal/abrogation from the Qur'an. Was the Prophet (pbuh) told by God to remove this verse? If so, why? When? Before, during, after people documented that the Prophet (pbuh) stoned many people to death for adultery? "
Posts: 1516 | From: Cairo | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:Originally posted by primak: well, you really seem to know what you're talking about and also seem quite convinced -although this is beyond my understanding in view of your obvious intelligence.
However, you have not really answered Snoozin's question have you? Voila , quoting Snoozin : "I don't understand full removal/abrogation from the Qur'an. Was the Prophet (pbuh) told by God to remove this verse? If so, why? When? Before, during, after people documented that the Prophet (pbuh) stoned many people to death for adultery? "
Hi primak!
I guess I could say the same about you...despite your obvious intelligence, I can't understand how you don't see the truth in Islam...so I guess we're at stalemate, for the time being any way
The reason I didn't try to answer the question was because I don't know the answer! As I said, there are some technical details about the issue I am not sure of, but I just wanted to contribute some points to the general discussion.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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try " newcomer"...she/he seems to be quite learned on the subject.
You can also get some incredible explanation from gana or bibo and as a bonus a detailed description of hell!
worried of what might happen to you if you decide to flirt a bit in cairo?? don't. we do not apply these barbaric laws here.
primak, you are back, but why do u think that god had made towrah, bible and Quran and everyone is not like the other, god had changed religion over the yrs it is true that even towrah had changed throughout years due to prophets. I am sure you don't believe in any so why do u argue here. you are a man with no believeth so why do u argue with people whom believe, what is your point .. you believe in no god .. so why do u bother yourself with others believes "soon they will die and they won't come back" why do u need to argue, u don't even care .. !! why should we listen to your great wisedom.
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Humanized: its exactly like whats happening right now!! we are more concerned with the Stoning more than the very strict conditions concerning the stoning.
the verse shows that the deafault punishment for adultery for married people is stoning. while other verse which is not abrogated explaining the conditions and the difference between lashing and stoning and the reasons for both. i hope its clearer now
No, it doesn't make it any clearer to me, I'm sorry. I know that's how the law is interpreted and/or applied, but I am looking for the fact pattern upon which the interpretation is based.
This issue is bothering me so much it's making me physically ill. If I cannot learn everything there is to know about it so that I can come to my own peace about the issue, I'm giving up.
I like a lot your frank response, well abrogation happened for example, the punishment for wine drinking wasn't straight forward, first of all god said: [2.219] They ask you about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, and their sin is greater than their profit. And they ask you as to what they should spend. Say: What you can spare. Thus does Allah make clear to you the communications, that you may ponder then god forbidden praying while stoned from wine, [4.43] O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath-- unless (you are) travelling on the road-- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.
Afterwards he forbid it after this cames the punishment: [5.90] O you who believe! intoxicants and games of chance and (sacrificing to) stones set up and (dividing by) arrows are only an uncleanness, the Shaitan's work; shun it therefore that you may be successful. "the third verse that forbid drinking wine, is called its abrogation (the first one abrogation)", this happens in many verses like in fasting, the way of fasting has changed also anyhow I don't know all of the abrogated verses in the quran but this is the most obvious one. whoever god said in the Quran: [2.106] Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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try " newcomer"...she/he seems to be quite learned on the subject.
You can also get some incredible explanation from gana or bibo and as a bonus a detailed description of hell!
worried of what might happen to you if you decide to flirt a bit in cairo?? don't. we do not apply these barbaric laws here.
primak, you are back, but why do u think that god had made towrah, bible and Quran and everyone is not like the other, god had changed religion over the yrs it is true that even towrah had changed throughout years due to prophets. I am sure you don't believe in any so why do u argue here. you are a man with no believeth so why do u argue with people whom believe, what is your point .. you believe in no god .. so why do u bother yourself with others believes "soon they will die and they won't come back" why do u need to argue, u don't even care .. !! why should we listen to your great wisedom.
you're too thick to understand that - although an agnostic - I could be interested in the subject. It's either black or white for you Bibo, isn't it? this is so unfortunate, shedd heylak, you're such a bigot that your posts are sad.
Posts: 1516 | From: Cairo | Registered: Oct 2001
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