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"Where's your oldest daughter?" she heard a voice demand. It was the senior elder of their village Within an hour, the entire village would learn that the 25-year-old married woman had been discovered in a darkened nearby hut with her lover.
Within two days, Amina was dead -- killed by her fellow villagers April 20 after the men of the community ruled that she had violated Islamic law by having an affair with a neighbor. "There was no option. This is what Islam commands us."
Oh yes, where do I sign up for this most loving and compassionate religion ? A religion that can twist a parents love for their child into killing them.
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[/QB][/QUOTE]Primak seems very into quotes, So I will give him something different :
"Only in Atheism does the spring rise higher than the source, the effect exist without the cause, life come from a stone, blood from a turnip, a silk purse from a sow’s ear, a Beethoven Symphony or a Bach Fugue from a kitten walking across the keys....." James M. Gillis
"The atheists are for the most part imprudent and misguided scholars who reason badly who, not being able to understand the Creation, the origin of evil, and other difficulties, have recourse to the hypothesis the eternity of things and of inevitability....." Voltaire
"An atheist’s most embarrassing moment is when he feels profoundly thankful for something,but can’t think of anyone to thank for it...." Mary Anne Vincent [/QB][/QUOTE]
Here's one more quote for you:
I worship humanity. All people are humans. Humanism is the way of the present and the future.Posts: 524 | Registered: Dec 2005
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"If there were no God, there would be no Atheists"
"I always admired atheists. I think it takes a lot of faith." -------------------------------------------------
"When I told the people of Northern Ireland that I was an atheist, a woman in the audience stood up and said, "Yes, but is it the God of the Catholics or the God of the Protestants in whom you don't believe?"
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Finally someone well informed and read well ( Polygamy)... I knew this interpretation and believe in it but never had it translated in English. It is quite obvious and doesn't need someone to explain it. Anyone who can read plain Arabic can read the Qur'an and understand it. it is very simple, but people never take time and do it. THANK YOU DALIA.
Sorry,I'm in a real hurry and just wanted to write a quick word.
Tahnks again Dalia.
PS. Women inherit 1/2 what the man inherit only in 2 occaions, The daughter and another situation,,, I don't wanna state it out of my head right now, but I'll check and have it documented. In all the other stuations women inherit just as much as men, Equal.
quote:Originally posted by Dalia:
quote:Originally posted by yuyuandmarmar: Polygamy is not only about orphans.
One of the most wide spread myths that has been associated with God's religion over the centuries is the issue of "Polygamy". It is customary for people when they think of Islam, or even when they embrace Islam, that they automatically have a license to marry more than one wife (upto a maximum of 4).
Men tend to fantasize that this is due to the high sexual libido that God has given them and that it is part of their Homo-Sapien right of male domination.
Even women in the Islamic world have come to accept the idea of Polygamy as being ordained by God and therefore not open for debate or questioning. The woman in Islamic society may not like the idea of sharing her husband with other women, but it is a fact of life she has been taught to accept and respect.
Did the Lord of the Universe realize that Muslim men were hormone driven animals that needed the sexual satisfaction of more than one mate? Or is it us who as usual interpret God's revelations with our desires rather than our brains?.
Where in the Quran can we find this command that justifies Polygamy?
"You shall hand over to the ORPHANS* their rightful properties. Do not substitute the bad for the good, and do not consume their properties by combining them with yours. This would be a gross injustice. If you fear that you will not be equitable towards the ORPHANS*, then you may marry their mothers. You may marry two, three, or four. If you fear lest you become unfair, then you shall be content with only one, or with what you already have. Additionally, you are thus more likely to avoid financial hardship." (4/2-3)
"They consult you concerning women: say, "GOD enlightens you regarding them, as recited for you in the scripture. The mothers of ORPHANS* that you wish to marry but do not give them their due dowries, you shall be just. The rights of young boys must also be protected. You shall treat the orphans equitably. Whatever good you do, GOD is fully aware thereof." (4/127)
* Orphans in Arabic (Yatama) is used for a child who has lost his father. A child who has lost his mother is not considered an Orphan in Arabic.
Any reader of the above verse does not have to be a genius to understand that Polygamy is CONDITIONAL that a person wants to be equitable towards the ORPHANS!.
But WHO are these ORPHANS that we are responsible for yet it is likely that we will not treat them favorably?.
Again, we do not have to look beyond the tip of our noses for the answer:
"Do not give those who are immature the money which God has ENTRUSTED you with. You shall provide for them from it and cloth them, and say to them what is just. You shall test the orphans when they reach puberty. As soon as you find them mature enough, GIVE THEM THEIR PROPERTY..." (4/5-6)
You must be the GUARDIAN to these Orphans and caretaker to their inheritance BEFORE even considering Polygamy. It is not just for a man to just pick children off the street and claim that he will marry their mother. The man must be the Guardian to the children appointed by their deceased father or because they (the Orphans) are from his blood.
After laying out the rules in which Polygamy is allowed, we are also dealt with more restrictions in the Quran:
"You can NEVER be equitable in dealing with more than one wife, no matter how hard you try. Therefore, do not be so biased as to leave one of them hanging. If you correct this situation and maintain righteousness, GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful." (4/129)
So, as we have it DETAILED in God's Book:
1. Orphans placed in our guardianship are to be treated fairly. 2. If we fear biased-ness or unfairness in treatment, we MAY marry their mother. 3. We MUST pay their mother her dowry as in the case of a normal marriage. 4. We MUST NOT be biased in our dealings with either wife.
Under these circumstances it becomes very clear how God's perfect system will be a shield for children who have lost their fathers and need protection in this world, rather than a license for sexual fantasies as most are led to believe.
May the Lord grant us His mercy for all the wrong we have done.
quote:Originally posted by dwgendy: PS. Women inherit 1/2 what the man inherit only in 2 occaions, The daughter and another situation,,, I don't wanna state it out of my head right now, but I'll check and have it documented. In all the other stuations women inherit just as much as men, Equal.
That would be very interesting to read, DWgendy, if you get a chance.... thanks!
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by dwgendy: I knew this interpretation and believe in it but never had it translated in English.
I thought that was a very common interpretation.
There are lots of translations and articles about this in English ... this one, which I posted before, is very interesting as well:
Many Muslim nations which now consider polygamy unconstitutional have justified such changes in legislation on the basis of the overall Qur'anic perspective on marriage, as well as on modern Islamic perspectives of marriage. The marriage of subjugation at the time of revelation was premised on the need for females to be materially provided for by some male. The ideal male for a female child was the father, and for the adult female, the husband. This economic perspective of marriage - as indicated by several verses discussed above - will also be reviewed here with regard to polygamy.
If you fear that you will not deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, two, three or four. But if you fear that you will not be able do do justly (with them),then only one, ... to prevent you from doing justice. (4.3)
First, this verse is about treatment of orphans. Some male guardians, responsible for managing the wealth of orphaned female children, were unable to refrain from unjust management of that wealth. (4:2). One solution suggested to prevent mismanagement was marriage to the female orphans. On the one hand, the Qur'an limited this number to four, and on the other hand, the economic responsibility of maintaining the wife would counterbalance the access to the wealth of the orphaned female through the responsibility of management. However, most proponents of polygamy seldom discuss it within the context of just treatment of orphans.
In fact, as far as they are concerned, the only measurement of justice between wives is material - can a man equally support more than one wife? This is an extension of the archaic idea of marriages of subjugation, because fairness is not based on quality of time, equality in terms of affection, or on spiritual, moral, and intellectual support. These general terms of social justice are not considered with regard to just treatment with wives.
It is especially clear that this verse is concerned with justice: dealing justly, managing funds justly, justice to the orphans, and justice to the wives, etc. Justice is the focus of most modern commentaries concerned with polygamy. In the light of the verse 4:129 - "You are never able to be just and fair as between women ..." - many commentators assert that monogamy is the preferred marital arrangement of the Qur'an. Surely, it is impossible to attain the Qur'anic ideal with regard to mutuality ("They (feminine plural) are raiment for you (masculine plural) and you are raiment for them" (2:187)), and with regard to building between them "love and mercy" (30:21), when the husband-father is split between more than one family.
Finally, with regard to three common justifications given for polygamy, there is no direct sanction in the Qur'an. One is financial: in the context of economic problems such as unemployment, a financially capable man should care for more than one wife. Again, this assumes that all women are financial burdens: reproducers, but not porducers. In today's world a lot of women neither have nor need male supporters. For one thing, it is no longer accepted that only men can work, do work, or are the most productive workers, in all circumstances. With regard to work outside the home, i.e. paid employment, the market is based on productivitiy. Productivity in turn is based on a numer of factors, and gender is only one of them. Surely, polygamy is no simple solution to complex eoconomic problems.
Another rationale given for a man having more than one wife centres on the woman who is unable to have children. Again, there is no mention of this as a rationale for polygamy in the Qur'an. However, the desire for children is natural. Thus, consideration for the barren man and the barren woman should not exclude either from the chance of marriage, nor from the care and upbringing of children. What possible solution is mutually available when the wife or husband is sterile and the couple cannot have their own children?
In a world of war and devastation, there are still orphaned Muslim (and other) children who would benefit from the love and care of childless couples. Perhaps caring for all of the earth's children might be practised by Muslims in the light of global catastrophes still unresolved. One's own blood relations are important, but perhaps not in terms of the final judgement of one's ability to care and nurture.
Finally, the third rationale given for polygamy not only has no sanction in the Qur'an but is clearly un-Qur'anic as it attempts to sanction men's unbridled lust: that if a man's sexual needs cannot be satisfied by one wife, he should have two. Presumably, if his lust is greater than that, he should have three, and on until he has four. Only after this fourth are the Qur'anic principles of self-constraint, modesty, and fidelity finally to be exercised.
As self-constraint and fidelity are required at the onset for the wife, these moral virtues are equally significant for the husband. It is clear that the Qur'an does not stress a high, civilized level for women while leaving men to interact with others at the basest level. Otherwise, the mutual responsibility of khilafah (trusteeship) would be left to one half of humanity while the other half remains near the animal state.
Amina Wadud: Qur'an and Woman. Rereading the Sacred Text from a Woman's perspectivePosts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by yuyuandmarmar: on the contrary you are the one threatened by the rise of Islam.
yuyu & marmar
Don’t take this the wrong way, I think we as Muslims should try to find a footstep in the current world by facing facts and not by being defensive or live in denial. While I’m not suggesting that you personally are doing so, but rather it is a common behavior that is associated by most Arabs and Muslims.
I’m not going to indulge in a religious/religious debate, but I’m commenting on the term “Rise” that you have kindly used in your post. “Rising” in my opinion includes, and is not limited to, technological, social, economical, military, and scientific achievements that seriously “elevates” the standards of living. One look around on what we have today in our lands compared with what others achieved is rather saddening. It is saddening because instead of this differences acting as a tremendous spur for us to really rise, we brush it aside and consider that the only counted for “rise” is the rise in faith, practised rituals and the quantity of believers making the Haj every year. A pity in the best of cases if you ask me. Rise in quantity doesn’t necessary mean rise in quality.
The only good rising that we have done so far, is rising our poor population, rising the percentage of illiteracy, rising the tensions in the world, rising the death tolls of sick people due to deficiency of medical care, rising consumption of food that led to depts, rising the toll of death of innocent people with suicide bombings, rising the price of oil because that led to a considerable “rise” for Exxon earnings for all I care! Rising the hatred and animosity with the rest of the world, and that latter one gets me. Why do we hate others that much? The west in general invented what we Muslims use freely today while taking it for granted, if those people were devious, they wouldn’t have shared penicillin with our sick people and children but would have kept it for their own children, they wouldn’t have shared with us the technology that me and you use today so freely to blemish them.We live in their countries and use their freedom to curse them while they don't ask as to convert to their religions, nor lock their cities for our visits.
I believe that if we continue our hatred to the world, then the world is entitled to hate us back. But if we shared compassion and seeked the brotherhood of mankind, we would surely have the same coin back. My belief is that every society in the world has its flaws. I’m not an advocate for the west, as they have their problems as well, but we have to understand that every religion assumes exclusivity of heaven. If we are true to ourselves, we should acknowledge the facts that are existing today on the ground of reality and try to rectify them and deal with them while keeping an even eye to the rest of the world.
Posts: 657 | From: Cairo | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: Thank you Humanized. It answered many of my questions but also raised more.
1. There are verses that have been abrogated from the Qur'an? Why and by whom?
2. If they are abrogated in word, why is their *ruling* not considered abrogated?
3. Whose responsibility is it to inflict this punishment?
4. What is the rationale behind adultery being such a horrific crime that a human must pay for it with his life? abrogated
Hello Snoozin first of all there is a kind of different openions in word abrograted. u can say the abrograted rules it is just not suitable for some situations for our days now but still vaild for other situations in future or in past. u just don't know when cause god create time so god aware with what happend had happend and what happening what will happend.
in the point of who suppose to inflict the punishment with a modern word the (goverment)
let me say some words about the adulty :-
before we talk about the punishment we must talk about how u prove this person do adulty or not. god give us the rules about that. 1- he and she must be married 2-it must be 4 wittness togther seeing them with no void ..... if they are only 3 wittness it is not valid in contrary if 3 wittness talk about that and they are not 4 they will be punished cause they talking about thing not proved.
so now let me ask u something. can u imagine any married person woman or man do adulty and let 4 wittness seeing him or her do adulty. can that be happend in the normal people ? ????? i will answer instead of u NO. it happend only for the people who publish their cheating and their adulty or may be in the house of adulty and that really what Quran fight.
Islam don't want the Adulty to be normal thing between musliums so it make the punishment very hard to make u think twice before u do it and apply this punsihment in the ppl who publish their sexual life (cheating) and in my openion they deserve that specially if they are married
BEst Regards mohamed
Posts: 435 | From: Cairo | Registered: Oct 2004
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Huda Al-Husseini, a correspondent for the Saudi owned London Arabic daily Al-Sharq Al-Awsat, conducted an extensive interview with Saudi Ambassador to London Ghazi Al-Qusaibi.
quote:
Flogging, Stoning, and Amputations Are in Muslim Eyes "The Core of the Islamic Faith" "On the other hand… democracy in Britain can do what it wants. In law school, we learned that the English Parliament can do anything except make a male into a female and a female into a male. Now it can do that too. In contrast, according to the Islamic view, no one – the nation cannot, 1,200,000,000 Muslims cannot –make the forbidden permissible and cannot make the permissible forbidden. [In Islam] punishments have been set, and no matter what we say, the West will see them as barbaric and primitive. According to the Western view, flogging is illogical. Execution is unacceptable, and the same goes for amputating hands and stoning. These are things that in Muslim eyes are at the core of the Islamic faith."
He also mentions how he would like to be a martyr but 'unfortunately' his age (or weight) deprives him of the pleasure.
Posts: 524 | Registered: Dec 2005
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Dr. 'Adel Sadeq, chairman of the Arab Psychiatrists Association and head of the Department of Psychiatry at 'Ein Shams University in Cairo. - a recipient of the 1990 Egyptian State Prize,
quote:"When the martyr dies a martyr's death, he attains the height of bliss. As a professional psychiatrist, I say that the height of bliss comes with the end of the countdown: ten, nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three, two, one. And then, you press the button to blow yourself up. When the martyr reaches 'one,' and then 'boom,' he explodes, and senses himself flying, because he knows for certain that he is not dead. It is a transition to another, more beautiful world, because he knows very well that within seconds he will see the light of the Creator. He will be at the closest possible point to Allah.."
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