posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by humanist: [QB] Yes, men can be raped by a woman. An erection can occur spontaneously, even though the man does not want sex. So what's your point? QUOTE]
My point is/was can a woman commit marital rape. My point was NOT can a woman rape a man.
I asked 3 specific question.
You fail to answer NONE of them.
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Politically Incorrect: I have one comment about the title of the thread versus the content of the thread.
If you have a right to something, this does not mean that you are entitled to use force to secure it. If someone owes you money and refuses to pay, they are at fault, but you can't pull a gun and force them to pay. That would be a crime regardless of who had the rights to what.
The question of whether sex is a marital right for men in Islam is an important question, but it is not a question about rape. If the wife is at fault for withholding sex from her husband, or the husband is at fault for say withholding support from his wife, this does not entitle the wronged party to use force to get what they want.
Very good question and perspective. I will try to find the answer for you Islamically. Even though the answer may have been given vaguely earlier.
Personally I can't see any pleasure or enjoyment out of having sex with an wife or husband is does not want to have sex. However, the question you raised is, "Is it permissible for a husband or wife" to force themselves on their spouse?
I'll will ask this question with a Scholar. I don't know the answer because the thought and I have never been around people who think like this walhamdulillah.
But I am sure Islam has an legitimate answer. We already now what SOME non-muslim governments feel about the issue.
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Okay Dalia is not the only one who has to answer that question.
Can a woman/wife rape her husband?
Can a GF rape her BF?
Can a mistress rape her lover?
Yes. The simplest example is statutory rape. A person under a certain age is not deemed capable of giving consent.
When I worked in the court system, I had a case where a woman had sex with her own 9 year old son. She was charged with rape.
Thank you for your input.
However, the issue here is NOT about statutory rape. I believe that is a whole different subject. The issue is marital rape. Where a spouse is charged with rape be it, male or female.
Can spouses be charged with rape. That is the quesition? Can a woman rape her husband?
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: [QUOTE]Originally posted by humanist: [QB] Yes, men can be raped by a woman. An erection can occur spontaneously, even though the man does not want sex. So what's your point? QUOTE]
My point is/was can a woman commit marital rape. My point was NOT can a woman rape a man.
I asked 3 specific question.
You fail to answer NONE of them.
OK, let me help you connect the dots. I know its tough for someone with a lukewarm IQ like you...if a woman can rape a man than YES she can rape her husband....duhh?
Posts: 407 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: [QUOTE]Originally posted by humanist: [QB] Yes, men can be raped by a woman. An erection can occur spontaneously, even though the man does not want sex. So what's your point? QUOTE]
My point is/was can a woman commit marital rape. My point was NOT can a woman rape a man.
I asked 3 specific question.
You fail to answer NONE of them.
OK, let me help you connect the dots. I know its tough for someone with a lukewarm IQ like you...if a woman can rape a man than YES she can rape her husband....duhh?
No it was I you helped you. Thank you for your response. The issue wasn't about rape per se. It was about marital rape. So do make a distinction.
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
There is no difference between rape and maritial rape. both imply the act of forcible sex on an unwilling person. The "maritial" part is just semantics.
Posts: 407 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by humanist: There is no difference between rape and maritial rape. both imply the act of forcible sex on an unwilling person. The "maritial" part is just semantics.
That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Others have a different opinon, thus this is the reason for the thread. Thanks.
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Can spouses be charged with rape. That is the quesition?
Stupid question, rape is rape, as has been mentioned here several times. In my country you can go to prison for raping your wife, the same goes for some other countries. Whether the rapist is married to the victim or does not change the fact that it's a crime. Btw, studies have shown that women who get raped by a partner suffer even more from the consequences which, if you think about it, makes perfect sense.
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Can spouses be charged with rape. That is the quesition?
Stupid question, rape is rape, as has been mentioned here several times. In my country you can go to prison for raping your wife, the same goes for some other countries. Whether the rapist is married to the victim or does not change the fact that it's a crime. Btw, studies have shown that women who get raped by a partner suffer even more from the consequences which, if you think about it, makes perfect sense.
Where do you live? Don't hide behind your country. Oh there you go with the guilt trip.."Btw, studies have shown that women who get raped by a partner suffer even more from the consequences which, if you think about it, makes perfect sense." You must have read the book "how to win friends and influence people." You always like to add side issue to the topic.
Again what is "YOUR" country?
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Side issues? LOL, this thread is about rape, so how can mentioning the effects of rape be a side issue?
And, no, I haven't read the book, I'm not interested in winning friends and influencing people.
Have a great day, I have to start working now.
Some researchers have compared the psychological effects of being raped by one's partner to other forms of violence. Given that women who are raped by their partners are likely to experience multiple assaults, completed sexual attacks, and that they are raped by someone whom they once presumably loved and trusted, it is not surprising that marital rape survivors seem to suffer severe and long-term psychological consequences (Kilpatrick et al., 1988; Frieze, 1983). Similar to other survivors of sexual violence, some of the short-term effects of marital rape include anxiety, shock, intense fear, depression, suicidal ideation, disordered sleeping, and post-traumatic stress disorder (Bergen, 1996; Kilpatrick et al., 1988; Russell, 1990; Stermac et al., 2001).
Women raped by their intimate partners are more likely to be diagnosed with depression or anxiety than those who are victims of physical violence and those who were sexually assaulted by someone other than one's partner (Plichta & Falik, 2001). Long-term effects often include disordered eating, sleep problems, depression, sexual distress, problems establishing trusting relationships, distorted body image, and increased negative feelings about themselves (Bergen, 1996; Frieze, 1983; Ullman & Siegel, 1993).
Research has also indicated that the psychological effects are likely to be long lasting - some marital rape survivors report flash-backs, sexual dysfunction, and emotional pain for years after the violence (Bennice & Resick, 2003; Bergen, 1996; Finkelhor & Yllo, 1985).
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: [QB] Side issues? LOL, this thread is about rape, so how can mentioning the effects of rape be a side issue?
And, no, I haven't read the book, I'm not interested in winning friends and influencing people.
Have a great day, I have to start working now.
LOL you skipped right over the 1st question, but I knew you would do that..You are so transparent.
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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"...Hence it comes as no surprise when we hear or read that most of these crimes occur in permissive societies, which are looked up to by some Muslims as examples of civilization and refinement!..."
Actually this part is not true!
Rape always occurs most in societies where women are viewed a sex objects and especially in societies where women have low status.
In fact there are or were many societies with permissive attitudes towards sex and where members of both sexes had sexual freedom and contact yet rape was unheard of! Such societies can still be seen today in many rural areas of Africa and Asia.
Rape is a violent act of power in which a mand displays the ultimate form of control over a woman by control over her body. It is only in societies where men have such views that rape is common. Take note that many Muslim societies like Palestine, Iran, and especially Pakistan have rate crimes as high if not higher than Western societies.
Posts: 26293 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: However, the issue here is NOT about statutory rape. I believe that is a whole different subject. The issue is marital rape. Where a spouse is charged with rape be it, male or female.
Can spouses be charged with rape. That is the quesition? Can a woman rape her husband?
It's all the same thing -- sex without *consent.* A person must consent to having sex or it is rape. Statutory rape merely means that a person has been deemed (by *statute* or law) incapable of giving consent to such a serious act because the person has not reached the age of majority.
Yes, a woman can rape her husband. *Consent* is key. This is not rocket science.
If you take a woman's (or man's) right to consent or refuse, then you are seeing her merely as property rather than as a human being. Your choice.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
I watched an interesting movie last night (One Way) in which a woman actually did *rape* the man who had raped her before. She used handcuffs, a gun and a rubber penis.
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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I recommend checking a dictionary before using words whose meaning you obviously don't understand.
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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I am Muslim woman, by birth. What Dalia wrote is true. She has proven her case because anything else is not making sense. Thank you Dalia for standing up for Truth and Islam the way it's intended. If a Muslim woman don't want to make love to her husband, she just like any Muslim man can freely say 'No'.
Do not listen to anyone else who tells you otherwise. I always encourage people to use their own common sense instead of applying theory blindly. You simply can't make someone have sex with you if person for whatever reason is not interested, even if that person is your wife.
Posts: 1039 | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife: I am Muslim woman, by birth. What Dalia wrote is true. She has proven her case because anything else is not making sense. Thank you Dalia for standing up for Truth and Islam the way it's intended. If a Muslim woman don't want to make love to her husband, she just like any Muslim man can freely say 'No'.
Do not listen to anyone else who tells you otherwise. I always encourage people to use their own common sense instead of applying theory blindly. You simply can't make someone have sex with you if person for whatever reason is not interested, even if that person is your wife.
Now I get it, because you (Lovingmylife) and Dalia understand it or because it make sense to the both of you because you are free thinkers and everyone else is bind we are just supposed to accept it.
Well we all might as well close the thread pack up everything and go home. Case closed.
We can now just refer to what you two feel is common sense and forget our own beliefs, thoughts and opinions.
You see a movie (disgusting one at that, at least from your description) and we are to derive factual evidence because of a movie? Oh and yes, because "lovingmylife" is a born Musliim also. I think you have expressed on several ocassions (whether openly or vaguely) that you have to be born into a Muslim family to truly understand Islaam. Everyone else is just blindly following. I could be wrong but that is the impression I gathered from several of your previous post.
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: We can now just refer to what you two feel is common sense and forget our own beliefs, thoughts and opinions.
So what *are* your own beliefs, thoughts and opinions?
If you personally think rape and marital rape is ok, then stop beating around the bush and just say it, instead of hiding behind empty phrases, ridiculous polemics and lots of pseudo-Isläämic blabber.
quote:Originally posted by Leito: A woman can rape a man if she wants to, by the use of a dildo like Dalia's movie suggests.
I don't see what's hard to understand there, the booklet only has one rule, insert dildo here.
Although it might be tough for a woman to get a man tied up anyway!
It wouldnt be hard if you gave him a nice cup of tea before bed with a couple sleepers mixed up in it. Not enough to snow him completely, just long enough to cuff him to the bed. Then he would be wide awake knowing whats happening. If he was really nasty and deserved it then you would just sneak up on him when he is sleeping and crack him really good in the head with a cast iron skillet before chaining him to the bed.....
Disclaimer: I never took advantage of my exhusband nor any other male. This is purely speculation and planning ahead. I am a well organized person and you never know when you might have use for something. It is always good to be prepared . Nor am I encouraging women to drug and rape their husbands, So Ladies NEVER DO THIS AT HOME!!
Posts: 1121 | From: Too crazy to look at a freakin map to find out.. | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: If you personally think rape and marital rape is ok
This was not addressed to me, but I have already pointed out that the issue raised in the OP is not about rape.
quote:Originally posted by Politically Incorrect: I have one comment about the title of the thread versus the content of the thread.
If you have a right to something, this does not mean that you are entitled to use force to secure it. If someone owes you money and refuses to pay, they are at fault, but you can't pull a gun and force them to pay. That would be a crime regardless of who had the rights to what.
The question of whether sex is a marital right for men in Islam is an important question, but it is not a question about rape. If the wife is at fault for withholding sex from her husband, or the husband is at fault for say withholding support from his wife, this does not entitle the wronged party to use force to get what they want.
Posts: 374 | From: men gheir laff w dawaran | Registered: Sep 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: If you personally think rape and marital rape is ok
This was not addressed to me, but I have already pointed out that the issue raised in the OP is not about rape.
quote:Originally posted by Politically Incorrect: I have one comment about the title of the thread versus the content of the thread.
If you have a right to something, this does not mean that you are entitled to use force to secure it. If someone owes you money and refuses to pay, they are at fault, but you can't pull a gun and force them to pay. That would be a crime regardless of who had the rights to what.
The question of whether sex is a marital right for men in Islam is an important question, but it is not a question about rape. If the wife is at fault for withholding sex from her husband, or the husband is at fault for say withholding support from his wife, this does not entitle the wronged party to use force to get what they want.
And what do you call using force to secure one's right to sexual relation with a spouse Posts: 173 | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by reserved: And what do you call using force to secure one's right to sexual relation with a spouse
I hate to repeat myself, now for the third time, but since you are asking let me try again. Look for the word 'crime':
quote:Originally posted by Politically Incorrect: I have one comment about the title of the thread versus the content of the thread.
If you have a right to something, this does not mean that you are entitled to use force to secure it. If someone owes you money and refuses to pay, they are at fault, but you can't pull a gun and force them to pay. That would be a crime regardless of who had the rights to what.
The question of whether sex is a marital right for men in Islam is an important question, but it is not a question about rape. If the wife is at fault for withholding sex from her husband, or the husband is at fault for say withholding support from his wife, this does not entitle the wronged party to use force to get what they want.
Posts: 374 | From: men gheir laff w dawaran | Registered: Sep 2007
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quote:Originally posted by reserved: And what do you call using force to secure one's right to sexual relation with a spouse
I hate to repeat myself, now for the third time, but since you are asking let me try again. Look for the word 'crime':
quote:Originally posted by Politically Incorrect: I have one comment about the title of the thread versus the content of the thread.
If you have a right to something, this does not mean that you are entitled to use force to secure it. If someone owes you money and refuses to pay, they are at fault, but you can't pull a gun and force them to pay. That would be a crime regardless of who had the rights to what.
The question of whether sex is a marital right for men in Islam is an important question, but it is not a question about rape. If the wife is at fault for withholding sex from her husband, or the husband is at fault for say withholding support from his wife, this does not entitle the wronged party to use force to get what they want.
I have to admit that I did not read the thread in its entirety and have no plans on doing so. From the snippets I read, the discussions revolve around "Rape" and "Marital Rape". You pointed out that no one is entitled to use force to secure their rights and I agreed.
Then Dalia posted a question which you quoted: "If you personally think rape and marital rape is OK"
Your reply: "This was not addressed to me, but I have already pointed out that the issue raised in the OP is not about rape."
I took that to mean that you do not consider using force to have sexual intercourse with one's spouse to be "Rape"! And so I posed the question:
"And what do you call using force to secure one's right to sexual relation with a spouse"
Becasue everything I read in this thread dealt with rape and specifically Marital Rape. That is, as you put it, using force to secure one's right to sexual intercourse (I'm paraphrasing).
To which you replied:
"I hate to repeat myself, now for the third time, but since you are asking let me try again. Look for the word 'crime':"
Does that mean that you believe using force to secure one's right to sexual relation with a spouse is a crime other than rape?
I'm clearly missing the point regardless of what it is.
Posts: 173 | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
In Islam, the husband can't claim to have rights over his wife's will, body, mind, and soul.
If she says no, and he says yes, that is still NO because she did not agree. It's her body. He can't now say, he has right over his wife's will, mind, body and soul. He doesn't.
That would be considered - rape. 100%
Wife is not denying him right to make love to her ( eventually ), she is telling him "without her this is not possible at this particular moment". ( maybe Later, can he wait? )
In other words, husband has right but only after she says - yes. ( self-explanatory )He can wait, that's why Islam teaches Patience as #1 islamic virtue, and fasting teaches you to learn how to control yourself.
Posts: 1039 | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Politically Incorrect: This was not addressed to me, but I have already pointed out that the issue raised in the OP is not about rape.
... I have one comment about the title of the thread versus the content of the thread.
If you have a right to something, this does not mean that you are entitled to use force to secure it. If someone owes you money and refuses to pay, they are at fault, but you can't pull a gun and force them to pay. That would be a crime regardless of who had the rights to what.
The question of whether sex is a marital right for men in Islam is an important question, but it is not a question about rape. If the wife is at fault for withholding sex from her husband, or the husband is at fault for say withholding support from his wife, this does not entitle the wronged party to use force to get what they want.
Sorry, but just like the poster above I do not understand at all what you're trying to say. Maybe you can clarify?
You are saying that having a right - such as a right to sleep with your wife - does not mean you're entitled to enforce that right.
Actually, I'm with you on that one, and it's also a point I made previously:
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
rape does not have anything to do with permission or lack of permission. In a marriage abusive or forced sexual activity cannot be justified by abusing this hadith. Rape is defined as unwanted, violent and forced sex, whether this occurs in a marital context or outside it. The definition of rape does not change because of the relationship.
It is important to not confuse the issue of mutual rights that a couple has on each other with the misguided, distorted and misogynist assumption that women become a husband's property. Islam does not allow for or tolerate ownership of human beings. Human dignity does not allow that any one person has the right to own, mind/body/soul, another human being... and Islam demands that all human beings respect the humanity of everyone.
It is important to not confuse the issue of mutual rights that a couple has on each other with the misguided, distorted and misogynist assumption that women become a husband's property.
However, the issue we are debating here is that some people - and particularly some Islamic scholars - claim that it's ok for a man to force his wife to have sex with him and that this would NOT be considered rape. In fact, as I pointed out above, some are even mocking those who claim that a husband can rape his wife or have objections towards that. They simply deny that forced sex is rape if the perpetrator is married to the victim.
So my conclusion would be - yes, this thread is about rape! Or, more precisely, about who defines what as rape.
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Rumicrazieluv: It wouldnt be hard if you gave him a nice cup of tea before bed with a couple sleepers mixed up in it. Not enough to snow him completely, just long enough to cuff him to the bed. Then he would be wide awake knowing whats happening.
Exactly, it would be very easy. A few tranquilizers, maybe turn him on a bit, and slip the handcuffs on. Besides, many people actually do use handcuffs as an accessory for lovemaking, so you could just pretend you want to try something new. Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Leito: Ladies and gentlemen, let me introduce our manrape expert ^^. Up there ^.
Haha, sleepers in tea ?
ROFL ....I never knew I could laugh so hard from a thread about rape.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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posted
It does look like there is some scheming going on.....
......gold meekly raises hand to ask a question....
How would you get them to stop coming after you to even get the opportunity to rape a man? It seems like it might just be another excuse for them to use to get in your pants....I mean he would be like, you can rape me if you want .... Wouldn't that defeat the purpose?
Oh, never mind, I get it now...that is what the tranquilizers are for ... Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: How come when I make a post and it says the number of Post: 381 then when I make another one it still says Post: 381 ?
Someone is manipulating the numbers...It has to be Hammer...those Republicans never can play fair.
Never mind......I figured this one out too....Either I am brilliant or I have been working in front of the computer for too long.
I'm going with brilliant .....
It says 1517 now. Posts: 6335 | From: Straight to my heart. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Thank you Vader for noticing, my numbers just keep growing.
Yours says 3185 Does this mean that you are smarter than me?
-------------------- "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." (Sign hanging in Einstein's office at Princeton) Leap and the Net will Appear. Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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It's just that school and work get in the way of my posting...
If I could only think of a way to get graded and paid for my post...
good nite...must break for sleep.
-------------------- "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." (Sign hanging in Einstein's office at Princeton) Leap and the Net will Appear. Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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