So I've been hearing left and right about the book of gates and how both the Nehesy and Kemetians were described as being created by Horus. I always took this for granted but now that I want to incorporate it into my vid I want to make sure I double check everything.
I have the part where Horus says he created the Nehesy, but
1) where is the part where he says he created the Egyptians?
It seems to me the text says that the Ancient Egyptians and people like them to the West were described as the creatures of Ra.
2) Color pix of the Tehenu are also appreciated. I've been searching my ass off for them and the little bastards just don't reveal themselves. My understanding is that they're supposed to be holding up somewhere in Sahure's temple.
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posted
As far as I know, Heru nominally represented the living Pharaoh, while his father, Ausar, nominally represented the passed away Pharaoh.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
^ I haven't studied (interpretations of) the text enough to know how exactly it is rationalised, if it was at all, that they (Sekhment, Horus etc) were thought of in this religious texts as literal ancesters/creators of the folks immediately surrounding Egypt. A portion of chapter VI has the following to say:
Horus says to the creatures of Ra who dwell in the Black Land (Kemet, Egypt) and in the Red Land (the deserts which lie on each side of the Black Land) "Magical protection be over you, O creatures of Ra, who have come into being from the Great One who is at the head of heaven. Let there be breath to your nostrils, and let your linen wrappings be loosened. You are the tears of the eye of my splendour in your name of Reth. Mighty of issue you have come into being in your name of Aamu; Sekhmet has created them, and it is she who delivers (avenges) their souls. I masturbated (to produce you), and I was content with the hundreds of thousands (of beings) who came forth from me in your name of Nehesu; Horus made them to come into being, and it is he who avengeth their souls. I sought out mine Eye, and you came into being in your name of Themenu; Sakhmet has created them, and she avenges their souls.''
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posted
Not to sideline this thread but that quote is interesting, given that Horus was the chief deity of Nekhen/Heirokonpolis and thus was the god of Upper Egypt.
The earliest recorded form is Horus the Falcon who was the patron deity of Nekhen in Upper Egypt and who is the first known national god, specifically related to the king who in time came to be regarded as a manifestation of Horus in life and Osiris in death
This can probably futher connect Predynastic Kemet with Nehesi/Ta-Seti. Will have to look into this.
Anyway I believe this is an image of a Tenehu posted by Djehuti I believe...
posted
^I recognize those straps as a characteristic of the Tehenu. Lemme check the link right quick.
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He seems to be probably one the most versed person on the connection between Old Kingdom Kemet and Ta-Seti. Interestingly I've discoverd Direct Connections as far back as the 5th Dynasty, and of course the overlap between the 1st dynasty, Nekhen and Ta Seti(A group Nubia)..
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On which one of the pages is that pic posted? I can't find it.
The straps seem to fit but I need more info on the pic before stamping it publically in my vid as Tehenu
What do you mean with direct connections with the 5th dynasty?
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posted
Kalonji - You have the wrong idea about Egyptian religion, it was very complex, and the gods had different attributes at different times, and in different places.
Horus was the Son of Isis, conceived after the death of his father Osiris and summoned to succeed him on the throne of the gods after defeating his Uncle Seth. So he wasn't even a creator god.
The creator god of all things was either Re (Ra), Amun, Ptah, Khnum or Aten, depending on which version of the myth was currently in use. The heavens were represented by Hathor, Bat, and Horus. Osiris was an earth god as was Ptah. The annual flooding of the Nile was Hapi. Storms, evil and confusion were Seth. His counterpart was Ma'at, who represented balance, justice and truth. The moon was Thoth and Khonsu. Re (Ra), the Sun god, took on many forms, and transcended most of the borders that constrained the other gods.
Like I said, it's complicated!
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: BTW, I forgot to post this, whenever we often come back to this issue of the ethnic identity of those western populations called Tehenu and Tejenu on this forum. But there are a great many tombs in the Western Oases of Egypt that CLEARLY show the populations of these areas being NOT much different than those of Egypt and Sudan. These tomb images, as I said earlier, are not as prominent or well known as those from Egypt, but there are a great many of them to say the least. From these images it becomes plainly clear that Africans were indeed always in these areas and puts to doubt any idea of FOREIGNERS being the sole ethnic group to the west of Egypt in ancient times. I have some photos that I found on a French site that I will try and find and post if I can....
Found the site and here is an example of an image from Dakhla oasis:
The point here being that the historical ethnic make up of the populations to the West of Egypt in ancient times was related to the populations along the Nile itself. They werent that much different, even after the arrival of the "sea peoples" and other invaders in the New Kingdom. It was only relatively recently (last 2000 years) that foreign types began to predominate in these areas.
posted
The post above is right in the Ra was generally perceived as the creator god, who himself was personification of an even higher supreme being. But Ra was generally at the top of the deity hierarchy through much of Dynastic Egypt.
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What do you make of the Book of Gates portion I posted? It does say that Horus and Sekhmet created the Nehesy and Asiatics + Tamahou respectively
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Bahariya Oasis is a rich archaeological area that houses the Valley of the Golden Mummies as well as a number of 26th Dynasty tombs.This excavation season, the Egyptian mission didn’t excavate in the Valley of the Golden Mummies because until now the site is overwhelmed with the discovery of 234 mummies.
Probably the Lybian Royal cemetary like Saqqara in Egypt and El Kurru in Merowe.
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posted
It strikes me that the piece you (Kalonji) cited is tacitly suggesting Egyptian dominion over the other peoples mentioned, since at the beginning of the excerpt, it is said that Heru was addressing the 'creatures of Ra". Remember, that Heru embodied the living Pharaoh of the land.
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posted
Horus says to the creatures of Ra who dwell in the Black Land (Kemet, Egypt) and in the Red Land (the deserts which lie on each side of the Black Land) ...''
The "Black Land" dwellers would have included both the Kmtyw and the Nhsw, while the "Red Land" would have included the Tmmhw and Ammw.
I think the author mistranslated the so-called "Black land" and "Red Land", which should really read as the "Black nations" and "Red nations" respectively.
Ps:
Notice that in the piece below, the two groups (Aamu and Tammahou) from the "Deshret/Red Land" are said to be "created by Sekhmet", whom also has "responsibility for delivering their souls", while Heru himself handles that of the Nehesw. It appears that Heru is resurrecting the mentioned folks, after death; after all, we are supposed to be dealing with the Book of Death, right...
Let there be breath to your nostrils, and let your linen wrappings be loosened. You are the tears of the eye of my splendour in your name of Reth. Mighty of issue you have come into being in your name of Aamu; Sekhmet has created them, and it is she who delivers (avenges) their souls. I masturbated (to produce you), and I was content with the hundreds of thousands (of beings) who came forth from me in your name of Nehesu; Horus made them to come into being, and it is he who avengeth their souls. I sought out mine Eye, and you came into being in your name of Themenu; Sakhmet has created them, and she avenges their souls.''
The keywords here, suggestive of resurrection, are as follows:
"breath to your nostrils" and "let your linen wrappings be loosened" [mummy linens].
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Kalonji: Thanks for your input Mike
What do you make of the Book of Gates portion I posted? It does say that Horus and Sekhmet created the Nehesy and Asiatics + Tamahou respectively
My point is that you must be very careful in drawing conclusions, based on White peoples conclusions. As an example, consider the below. Personally, I don't put much stock in it.
Nehesy (Nehesi) was a ruler traditionally placed in the 14th Dynasty of Egypt of the Second Intermediate Period.
Nehesy (Nhsj) has been interpreted as "the Black One, the Nubian, the Kushite" suggesting he ethnically was a "Black Pharaoh".
I am currently looking for translated text of the Great Karnak Inscription and the Athribis Stela of Merneptah, these may hold some clues - providing the translator didn't inject anything.
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quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: Lets see Doug M has it here..
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: BTW, I forgot to post this, whenever we often come back to this issue of the ethnic identity of those western populations called Tehenu and Tejenu on this forum. But there are a great many tombs in the Western Oases of Egypt that CLEARLY show the populations of these areas being NOT much different than those of Egypt and Sudan. These tomb images, as I said earlier, are not as prominent or well known as those from Egypt, but there are a great many of them to say the least. From these images it becomes plainly clear that Africans were indeed always in these areas and puts to doubt any idea of FOREIGNERS being the sole ethnic group to the west of Egypt in ancient times. I have some photos that I found on a French site that I will try and find and post if I can....
Found the site and here is an example of an image from Dakhla oasis:
The point here being that the historical ethnic make up of the populations to the West of Egypt in ancient times was related to the populations along the Nile itself. They werent that much different, even after the arrival of the "sea peoples" and other invaders in the New Kingdom. It was only relatively recently (last 2000 years) that foreign types began to predominate in these areas.
Ok, no Tehenu then I went through the older threads awhile back and I got the impression that color representations of Tehenu have yet to be posted on ES.
Who can confirm this? Has there ever been a color representation of the Tehenu posted on ES?
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Horus says to the creatures of Ra who dwell in the Black Land (Kemet, Egypt) and in the Red Land (the deserts which lie on each side of the Black Land) ...''
The "Black Land" dwellers would have included both the Kmtyw and the Nhsw, while the "Red Land" would have included the Tmmhw and Ammw.
I think the author mistranslated the so-called "Black land" and "Red Land", which should really read as the "Black nations" and "Red nations" respectively.
Ps:
Notice that in the piece below, the two groups (Aamu and Tammahou) from the "Deshret/Red Land" are said to be "created by Sekhmet", whom also has "responsibility for delivering their souls", while Heru himself handles that of the Nehesw. It appears that Heru is resurrecting the mentioned folks, after death; after all, we are supposed to be dealing with the Book of Death, right...
Let there be breath to your nostrils, and let your linen wrappings be loosened. You are the tears of the eye of my splendour in your name of Reth. Mighty of issue you have come into being in your name of Aamu; Sekhmet has created them, and it is she who delivers (avenges) their souls. I masturbated (to produce you), and I was content with the hundreds of thousands (of beings) who came forth from me in your name of Nehesu; Horus made them to come into being, and it is he who avengeth their souls. I sought out mine Eye, and you came into being in your name of Themenu; Sakhmet has created them, and she avenges their souls.''
The keywords here, suggestive of resurrection, are as follows:
"breath to your nostrils" and "let your linen wrappings be loosened" [mummy linens].
Interesting theory Unfortunately I don't know enough about the quoted portion to argue intelligently pro or con.
I do know the ''avenge their souls'' bit has also been translated as ''protect their souls'' meaning that this protection thing probably extended itself in the living world as well.
Budge has also translated the bit in a near identical way.
What makes you suspect that ''black land'' should include Nehesy as well?
^Budge translation Scroll a few screens upward from the buttom of the page to find it or use ctrl+f
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posted
Because the two groups--Tammahou and Aamu--are generally referred to as Dshrtyw people, and as hinted on by the party supposedly responsible for delivering their "souls". The Nehesw are generally implied to be part of the "Black nations", as implied here, by Heru himself "creating them or masturbating them" and being the one who is "responsible for delivering their souls".
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Horus says to the creatures of Ra who dwell in the Black Land (Kemet, Egypt) and in the Red Land (the deserts which lie on each side of the Black Land) ...''
The "Black Land" dwellers would have included both the Kmtyw and the Nhsw, while the "Red Land" would have included the Tmmhw and Ammw.
I think the author mistranslated the so-called "Black land" and "Red Land", which should really read as the "Black nations" and "Red nations" respectively.
Ps:
Notice that in the piece below, the two groups (Aamu and Tammahou) from the "Deshret/Red Land" are said to be "created by Sekhmet", whom also has "responsibility for delivering their souls", while Heru himself handles that of the Nehesw. It appears that Heru is resurrecting the mentioned folks, after death; after all, we are supposed to be dealing with the Book of Death, right...
Let there be breath to your nostrils, and let your linen wrappings be loosened. You are the tears of the eye of my splendour in your name of Reth. Mighty of issue you have come into being in your name of Aamu; Sekhmet has created them, and it is she who delivers (avenges) their souls. I masturbated (to produce you), and I was content with the hundreds of thousands (of beings) who came forth from me in your name of Nehesu; Horus made them to come into being, and it is he who avengeth their souls. I sought out mine Eye, and you came into being in your name of Themenu; Sakhmet has created them, and she avenges their souls.''
The keywords here, suggestive of resurrection, are as follows:
"breath to your nostrils" and "let your linen wrappings be loosened" [mummy linens].
If Reth = Egyptians would a direct interpretation suggest that Egyptians and Nehesu both derive from the life fluid of Horus, one from his tears, the other his semen, respectively?
-------------------- mr.writer.asa@gmail.com Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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So, it appears. However, it also appears that Heru's role in all this, is to resurrect all the groups involved and by telling the reader whom is supposedly responsible for "delivering" or "avenging" their soles, I believe he is signifying their territorial provenance, i.e. the "Black Land" and "Red Land" respectively, per the cited piece, as translated, which in my opinion has some translation holes where detail is concerned.
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posted
^I agree that Nehesu must have been incorporated into the so-called "Black Land" and believe that it logically follows considering the context as Horus names those "creatures of Ra" who inhabit the Red and Black "lands", or nations, Nehesu being one of them, and with the general understanding that Aamu and Themenu come from the so-called "Red Land". Also, I recall the discussion when Kendall observed that at least the Nehesu thought of themselves as belonging to Km't, at least as part of their justification to rule Egypt under Piye's dynasty.
quote: It is Piye's Year 3 Stele that preserves the earliest Napatan record of the kingship tradition of Gebel Barkal. Here he declares that "Amun of Napata granted me to be ruler of every foreign country," and "Amun in Thebes granted me to be ruler of the Black Land (Kmt)" (FHN I 57; Reisner 1931, 89). The twin Amuns of Barkal and Karnak are presented here as mutually supportive aspects of each other, each giving the king a vital portion of his kingship. Only one Amun, however, is shown in the lunette. This is the ram-headed god of Napata, whom the text says gave the king "every foreign country." Yet we see that he is the one handing the king two royal crowns and thus also giving him the kingship of "the Black Land." One crown is the Red Crown of Lower Egypt, and the other is the cap crown, which obviously had some meaning analogous to, but not quite identical with, the White Crown. Here Amun of Napata seems to be granting the gift ascribed to Amun of Thebes. We wonder if there is an inconsistency here, or if we are to understand that the two gods are really exactly the same and perform the same tasks. We also wonder what the king really means here by the terms "foreign countries" and "the Black Land." Does the Red Crown of Lower Egypt symbolize "foreign countries"? Does the cap crown symbolize "Kemet"? "Kemet", in this case, would have to be understood here as a united Nubia and Upper Egypt. By the time of Harsiotef, "Kemet" had come to mean Kush (FHN II 446).
---Timothy Kendall
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Because the two groups--Tammahou and Aamu--are generally referred to as Dshrtyw people, and as hinted on by the party supposedly responsible for delivering their "souls". The Nehesw are generally implied to be part of the "Black nations", as implied here, by Heru himself "creating them or masturbating them" and being the one who is "responsible for delivering their souls".
After thoroughly rereading your posts, supplemented by Sundiata's, your interpretation does seem to be better, primarily because the piece would be redundant in saying the Egyptians were created by two deities.
The first sentence seems to be an introduction sentence to all nations, to announce what is said, rather than stating the origins of the Egyptians as creations of Ra.
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I see no reason to doubt Kendalls take on that, during the Kushitic rule over Kemet and Kush. And as noted, it appears the Egyptian Pharaohs had the same perspective about the Nehesu, which would have included Kush.
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quote:Originally posted by Kalonji: Ok, no Tehenu then I went through the older threads awhile back and I got the impression that color representations of Tehenu have yet to be posted on ES.
Who can confirm this? Has there ever been a color representation of the Tehenu posted on ES?
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posted
The guys on the top register are ancient Egyptians. The ones in the bottom, but seem to have worn out to some extent, are Tehenu figures. You still make out their dark color in some instance...which almost approaches those of the ancient Egyptians above them. The Tehenu generally wore crosshair-like leather straps on the trunk of the body.
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posted
Unfortunately I can't boot my old laptop where I was working on a complete traslation of BG 4.5 and I don't know how to access its harddrive as a storage device without damaging my new laptop but the translation Explorer posted is essentially the same with a few major reservations.
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The original Scorpion King(, which, i guess the Rock was a good actor for as it looks he was pretty buff).
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This translation supercedes my previous postings, is tentative, not literal, rather designed for 21st century understandings.
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The part in your translation that deals with Nehesy, is that to be interpretated as him (Horus) being content about Nubians ''going forth and being procreative'' WITH his seed, or is it like Budge's translation, where Horus is content about the potency of his own sperm?
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quote:Originally posted by Kalonji: Ok, no Tehenu then I went through the older threads awhile back and I got the impression that color representations of Tehenu have yet to be posted on ES.
Who can confirm this? Has there ever been a color representation of the Tehenu posted on ES?
Thanks for the effort But I really need a coloured tomb scene You've seen my raw vid, black and white photos or non-dolored reproductions would only make my argument weaker. I rather not give them any handles to formulate easy counter arguments.
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posted
The word(s) translated by Budge as masturbation nn hh-w.{nekht}.n is unconfirmed in Worterbuch.
The "outpourings" could be praises per what I could dig up on the root. There is word play in the text where the name of each of the four subjects (cattle) is also a key word in their description or engendering.
Literally we have
r-m-y-th.{RMYTH} used with r-th RMTH.{plural} -- tear shedding / men (of) men
`A3.(+`a).{mdj3t} mw used with `A3.(+`a+3)-m.w.{rmth.plural} -- great water / A3mw
nn hh-w.{nekht}.n used with n-(+NHH)-hh-s.w.{rmth.plural} -- those stroked / Nehhesu
hh-hh-y.n used with th-m-hh.w.{rmth.plural} -- searched / Themehhu
Here's the transliteration, literal translation, and translation for the Nehesi portion of text.
You may prefer this equally valid alternate translation.
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posted
BTW - Sekhmet is the detached Eye of Horus (Re) who in creation mythos was used to destroy the whole human race due to Horus (Re) or whomever was initially displeased by humanity's actions but later took pity and found a way to trick the voracious destroyer Sekhmet into passivity.
AE mythos is not the easy story telling kind one finds in Greek or Norse mythology. It's more like a code used to explain the cosmos and its workings by those temple trained ones with the decoding keys.
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Notice the commonalities between what you just mentioned about Sekhmet and certain portions of the bible
When I first read about the portion of the book of gates under examination in this thread, the person who mentioned it used the translation that said ''Sekhmet pounds'' rather than ''Sekhmet protects'', to make a case for favorable treatment that the AE had for Ancient Sudani's.
When I searched for the document and perused three differrent translations of the text, I couldn't find the same harsh words directed against Asiatics and Libyans. I even found a ethnocentric site with members egostroking themselves with this religious text, saying that the AE had gods that protected the Asiatics, so I wrote it off as a fabrication.
Thanks to the link you've provided, I know there is a legit basis behind it. I wish we could get more decisiveness around the translation of either pounding, or protecting in the case of Asiatics and Libyans though.
Are there any new developments around this?
Did any of you manage to contact the scholar in question?
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I didn't want to critique Etile without him present.
Etile arbitrarily translates the same word to pound or protect. For Nehesi he chose the former but for the Aamu and Tjemehu he selected the latter. Is bias at work?
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: As far as I know, Heru nominally represented the living Pharaoh, while his father, Ausar, nominally represented the passed away Pharaoh.
Citations?? Links?? We don't want you pulling opinions and facts outta of your a-hole.
Authority??
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Nothing ever came of it. I didn't want to critique Etile without him present. Etile arbitrarily translates the same word to pound or protect. For Nehesi he chose the former but for the Aamu and Tjemehu he selected the latter. Is bias at work?
It does seem pretty peculiar that the Ancient Egyptians would associate Sekhmet with Asiatics, when the deity in question was supposed to be a protector of Egyptians against Asiatics. Seth would have been a way better choice given his association with reds and foreigners.
This thread kinda lets me know how little I know about Ancient Egyptian ’’racial’’ groupings. I'm still baffled by the grouping of Nehesy in blacks, along with the Ancient Egyptians, and the Aamu and Tamahou grouped into ''red'', even though it seems to be consistent with the flow of the story.
Can anyone clue me in on other attestations of these groupings in AE documents?
How does the Ancient Egyptian tradition of painting a subset of themselves red, fit into this?
How can they group Asiatics and Tamahou conceptually as ‘’red’’, yet generally not paint them as such artistically. On the other hand, they do paint a subset of themselves as red.
What’s going on here?
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posted
^^^^ I think we are still applying a Eurocentric view on a Non European culture. Do we even know if the Egyptian Grouping was Racial or more to do with Typography and Religious as well as cultural aspects. For instance If I recall red was sometimes associated with Chaos, and the God of Chaos, Seth, was depicted or associated with Red. We know the Egyptians constanly called Asiatics "Sand Dwellers" and "Desert Princes", "Desert Kings", also the Lybians lived in the oasis in the middle of the desert. More than likely it was not based off of racial ideologies as opposed to Religion and Typography.
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posted
My use of "racial" should be interpretated loosely Obviously, no Western categorisation is at work here in the Book of Gates, but equally obviously; the Ancient Egyptians would've had their own account of how they and other nations came into being
The assignment of gods to the creation of nations, and more specifically, the assignment of specific deities to nations who look similar eg Sudanis and Egyptians under Horus, suggest to me that there is more at work than simply the color of the lands
Not all Nehesy were riverine, but all Nehesy were created by Horus per the cited portion
If all Nehesy were not riverine (black land), and some lived in red lands as well, it implies that not people inhabiting similar looking lands but rather similar looking people were assigned a single deity in the book of gates
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It does seem pretty peculiar that the Ancient Egyptians would associate Sekhmet with Asiatics, when the deity in question was supposed to be a protector of Egyptians against Asiatics. Seth would have been a way better choice given his association with reds and foreigners.
You may have inadvertently given a clue for the answer to your mystery here. Since the Sekhmet was supposed to protect Kemet against agents of chaos, it makes sense that as "the protector", it would oversee those elements, while the "children of the Nile Valley" were part of the orderliness and balance that the Nile Valley represents. The later would therefore be under the direct jurisdiction of Heru.
Here's the sticking point: The Pharaoh, the divine enforcer of law and order of the country/land, also embodies Heru. Does this therefore mean that the Nehesu must necessarily have given legitimacy to the authority of the Pharaoh? This question deserves pondering, but the spiritual presiding of Heru over the Nehesu would seem to suggest that the latter would have been expected to do so.
quote:
How does the Ancient Egyptian tradition of painting a subset of themselves red, fit into this?
What do you mean by "ancient Egyptian tradition of painting a subset of themselves red"?
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You should back off any presentation on scene 30 in the Book of Gates. You truly cannot understand it by a few hours worth of exchanging posts.
It took me years to arrive at my conclusions and I had to examine every available sarcophagous and tomb inscription of the Gate of Teka Hra before I could really begin to grasp it beyond what any Egyptologists (including Champollion and Diop) were misconstruing it to represent.
I had to understand vignette 30 within context of the Gate of Teka Hra. I had to understand the Gate of Teka Hra within the context of the Book of Gates. I had to understand the Book of Gates within context of the other NK guides to the Afterlife Otherworld.
I still do not, and never will, understand both the interchangeability and interplay of the deities in the context of each major recension and each epoch of Egyptian civilization leave alone each city's conception.
The Book of Gates was only in use roughly 200 years a short time for a civilization spanning not less than 3000 years. It is unattested outside the pharaohship. Apparently, Haremhab first uses it followed by most 19th dynasty pharaohs and only some the pharaohs of the 20th dynasty.
Scene 30 is not a Table of Nations nor is it designed as race anthropology even though limited ethnography conclusions may be drawn from it. It is part of one hour of the sun's night time journey and the Subjects of Re have to be understood in that and resurrection contexts.
I think you should take a year to build up your knowledge base on this before launching a video incorporating BG 4:5 vg30. I hope this whole YouTube exercise is meant to be a guiding constellation not a shooting star.
quote:Originally posted by Kalonji: It does seem pretty peculiar that the Ancient Egyptians would associate Sekhmet with Asiatics, when the deity in question was supposed to be a protector of Egyptians against Asiatics. Seth would have been a way better choice given his association with reds and foreigners.
This thread kinda lets me know how little I know about Ancient Egyptian ’’racial’’ groupings. I'm still baffled by the grouping of Nehesy in blacks, along with the Ancient Egyptians, and the Aamu and Tamahou grouped into ''red'', even though it seems to be consistent with the flow of the story.
Can anyone clue me in on other attestations of these groupings in AE documents?
How does the Ancient Egyptian tradition of painting a subset of themselves red, fit into this?
How can they group Asiatics and Tamahou conceptually as ‘’red’’, yet generally not paint them as such artistically. On the other hand, they do paint a subset of themselves as red.
What’s going on here?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Sekhmet serves as patron of dead Asiatics and Libyans.
What beast is associated with Sekmet? Where does that beast live? What does that beast represent (in cosmography terms)?
What is Sekhmet's role in the destruction of humankind.
What is the cosmography relationship of Sekhmet to Set?
What is the Afterlife Otherworld difference between the Rot Romitu and the foreigners (Aamu, Nehesi, Tjemehu)?
quote:Originally posted by Kalonji: It does seem pretty peculiar that the Ancient Egyptians would associate Sekhmet with Asiatics, when the deity in question was supposed to be a protector of Egyptians against Asiatics. Seth would have been a way better choice given his association with reds and foreigners.
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I haven't studied the Book of Gates enough to make a presentation out of it. I want to use a portion of it - the portion under examination in my OP - to make a case for the relatedness of the Nehesy to the Egyptians in the mind of the Egyptian himself, to contrast it with the iconographic based conclusions of the Egyptologist I'm responding to.
I've already worked the bit into the vid, with an interpration thats similar to how I've interpreted it in this thread. Unless you (or anyone else) have something to add to my interpretation of the cited bit, please do so because the vid is nearly completed
If another document of a simpler nature but with a similar message had come to my attention, I would've chosen that one instead, but research so far has not clued me in on the exitence of an alternative document.
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quote:Originally posted by Kalonji: The assignment of gods to the creation of nations, and more specifically, the assignment of specific deities to nations who look similar eg Sudanis and Egyptians under Horus, suggest to me that there is more at work than simply the color of the lands
Yes. It is more about the function and aspects of the sun.
quote:Originally posted by Kalonji: Not all Nehesy were riverine, but all Nehesy were created by Horus per the cited portion
If all Nehesy were not riverine (black land), and some lived in red lands as well,
Good observation about all of the Nehesi not being riverine. The Intiu weren't riverine but they weren't "sand dwellers."
quote:Originally posted by Kalonji: it implies that not people inhabiting similar looking lands but rather similar looking people were assigned a single deity in the book of gates
No. It is not at all about similar phenotypes of people.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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It does seem pretty peculiar that the Ancient Egyptians would associate Sekhmet with Asiatics, when the deity in question was supposed to be a protector of Egyptians against Asiatics. Seth would have been a way better choice given his association with reds and foreigners.
You may have inadvertently given a clue for the answer to your mystery here. Since the Sekhmet was supposed to protect Kemet against agents of chaos, it makes sense that as "the protector", it would oversee those elements, while the "children of the Nile Valley" were part of the orderliness and balance that the Nile Valley represents. The later would therefore be under the direct jurisdiction of Heru.
Makes sense. What makes you say that the Nehesy were viewed as part of the orderliness and balance of the Niley Valley?
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Kalonji: How does the Ancient Egyptian tradition of painting a subset of themselves red, fit into this?
What do you mean by "ancient Egyptian tradition of painting a subset of themselves red"?
In the South, the skin tones included more brown and black than in the North.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Here's the sticking point: The Pharaoh, the divine enforcer of law and order of the country/land, also embodies Heru. Does this therefore mean that the Nehesu must necessarily have given legitimacy to the authority of the Pharaoh? This question deserves pondering, but the spiritual presiding of Heru over the Nehesu would seem to suggest that the latter would have been expected to do so.
The legitimacy of Nehesy to lay claim to the throne was self evident because of the sharing similar Pharaonic cultural traits. Their cultures were fundamentally compatible since the early holocene, and more recent borrowings of both sides in dynastic times made their culture even more compatible. From that viewpoint and others (sacred sites and products in the south eg Gebel Barkal and aromatic resins) I think it can be said that the Egyptians recognized that Nehesy were compatible enough, in both biology and culture to lay clame to their throne. I don’t see how the pharaoh fits in this picture of what Horus was saying In the cited piece. I get that the Pharaoh embodied Horus, but Horus was his own entity as well. What textual indications do you use that Pharaonic insinuations are implied here?
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quote:Originally posted by Kalonji: Not all Nehesy were riverine, but all Nehesy were created by Horus per the cited portion If all Nehesy were not riverine (black land), and some lived in red lands as well,
Good observation about all of the Nehesi not being riverine. The Intiu weren't riverine but they weren't "sand dwellers." [/QB]
What about the Medjay? Can it be said that they were ‘’sand dwellers’’ according to the AE?
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
quote:Originally posted by Kalonji: it implies that not people inhabiting similar looking lands but rather similar looking people were assigned a single deity in the book of gates
No. It is not at all about similar phenotypes of people. [/QB]
Would you say it’s accurate to say that the Kemetian view of a common origin from Horus implies a closer relationship with Nehesy in their mind?
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I did say Book of Gates scene 30 which is the portion under examination in your OP. But to you, just what relatedness is implied there?
Can you succinctly post how it is worked into the vid? I'm done finished with my suggestions and critique. Just curious as to what you are presenting and how you are interpreting it.
quote:Originally posted by Kalonji: alTakruri
I haven't studied the Book of Gates enough to make a presentation out of it. I want to use a portion of it - the portion under examination in my OP - to make a case for the relatedness of the Nehesy to the Egyptians in the mind of the Egyptian himself, to contrast it with the iconographic based conclusions of the Egyptologist I'm responding to.
I've already worked the bit into the vid, with an interpration thats similar to how I've interpreted it in this thread. Unless you (or anyone else) have something to add to my interpretation of the cited bit, please do so because the vid is nearly completed
If another document of a simpler nature but with a similar message had come to my attention, I would've chosen that one instead, but research so far has not clued me in on the exitence of an alternative document.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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^Judging by how Horus says that both the Nehesy and Egyptians came forth from his body, it seems to me that an Egyptian conceptualisation of biological relations between Nehesy and themselves can be understood from the text..
The vid is a response to Bob Brier I've used the Book of Gates quote in the ending of my vid, where I make a summeration of everything examined so far, and where I add new arguments, including the Book of Gates quote.
The specific Bob Brier quote that the Horus piece responds to, is his claim that Nubians were always painted black and that this Egyptian artistic tradition means that they (the AE) were making a conscious biological distinction between themselves and what he calls Nubians.
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You may have inadvertently given a clue for the answer to your mystery here. Since the Sekhmet was supposed to protect Kemet against agents of chaos, it makes sense that as "the protector", it would oversee those elements, while the "children of the Nile Valley" were part of the orderliness and balance that the Nile Valley represents. The later would therefore be under the direct jurisdiction of Heru.
Makes sense. What makes you say that the Nehesy were viewed as part of the orderliness and balance of the Niley Valley?
I believe I already stated what made me say that they were viewed as part of the orderliness and balance of the Nile Valley, here:
While the "children of the Nile Valley" were part of the orderliness and balance that the Nile Valley represents. The later would therefore be under the direct jurisdiction of Heru.
quote: In the South, the skin tones included more brown and black than in the North.
Image examples?
quote:
I don’t see how the pharaoh fits in this picture of what Horus was saying In the cited piece. I get that the Pharaoh embodied Horus, but Horus was his own entity as well. What textual indications do you use that Pharaonic insinuations are implied here?
The Pharaoh doesn't necessarily fit into the cited piece, and so, not what was said either. What was said, is that the Pharaoh embodies Heru, and was considered the divine enforcer of law and order of the land. Since the Pharaoh essentially served as a living proxy for Heru on land, I was exploring the pausibility of whether the groups said to be under Heru's jurisdiction for resurrection in the Netherworld, could not have also been the same groups expected to acknowledge the Pharaoh's legitimacy as the divine [though mortal] authority of land, not when they are already dead but during their lifetime. Any clearer?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:I believe I already stated what made me say that they were viewed as part of the orderliness and balance of the Nile Valley, here:
While the "children of the Nile Valley" were part of the orderliness and balance that the Nile Valley represents. The later would therefore be under the direct jurisdiction of Heru.
^You’re simply substantiating yourself with a repetition of the very statement that I queried after. What makes you say that Nehesy were viewed as part of the orderliness and balance, and that the Nile Valley was the source of this? I find that hard to reconcile with the inscriptions and iconographic material that has come to my attention so far.
quote:Image examples?
I can't give image examples, because the images are too numerous to compare which region has the most reddish skin tones.
What I'm basing this on is that the darkest individuals known to us eg Amenemhat II, Maiherpri, Ahmose Nefertari, Niankhpepi, Khnumhotep II, Pinudjem I, Tiye, Amenhotep III, Nakht etc all hail from the South
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^You’re simply substantiating yourself with a repetition of the very statement that I queried after.
Not really. I'm repeating myself, because I thought I was very clear the very first time about why I said the Nehesu were likely viewed as part of "orderliness and balance". The answer was already in the very statement that you overlooked, even after I pointed it out to you again, which is that they were perceived as the "children of the Nile".
quote: What makes you say that Nehesy were viewed as part of the orderliness and balance, and that the Nile Valley was the source of this?
How did their food grow in the Nile? What made the Nile Valley a habitable place?
quote: I can't give image examples, because the images are too numerous to compare which region has the most reddish skin tones.
Well, I assumed that you must have seen photos of what you were describing and hence, able to describe them in the manner you did. It doesn't make sense that you are unable to find examples that substantiate your claim.
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