1.Q. did the first ancient egyptians look like the guys above
A.yes or no
2.Q.are the guys above ANCIENT EGYPTIANS
A. yes or no
3.Q.do the guys above look like SUB SAHARAN africans
A.yes or no
Posted by rahotep101 (Member # 18764) on :
This is a better photo of the Menes statue, the version black-Egypt advocates prefer has been somewhat distorted.
I stand my my contention that modern Copts are the closest living people to the ancient Egyptians.
Her'es a question, what colour are the inlay eyes in this predynastic egyptian figure?
Who was Queen Heteperes II?
Who was 'ginger'?
Why is Queen Nefertari blushing? Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ancient Egyptians were Caucasoid: This is how that statue probably looked like in flesh:
Not purely Negroid (i.e. significant Caucasoid admixture).
So a modern ARAB Egyptian whom you say is significantly mixed is a perfect representative of an ancient African one? LOL
Why not these pure NON-Arab Egyptians from rural areas??
Courtesy of Wally.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by rat-ho-pig1001: This is a better photo of the Menes statue, the version black-Egypt advocates prefer has been somewhat distorted.
So you still think it looks "caucasian".
Okay so how about this statue?
quote:I stand my my contention that modern Copts are the closest living people to the ancient Egyptians.
Even though Copts are a Christian demonination, and Copts vary in their looks depending on what part of Egypt they live just as Egyptian Muslims, and that the Coptic elite are northern Delta people who have known significant European ancestry.
quote:Her'es a question, what colour are the inlay eyes in this predynastic egyptian figure?
A better view Blue because of the blue stones. Are you suggesting this is reflective of reality even though very few statues feature such eye color? By the way many African cultures share a belief that gods or in human form may have 'odd' eye colors like blue, green, yellow etc. The predynastic figure likely represents a goddess. Unless you think she is a blue-eyed European, if so where is the evidence?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Who was Queen Heteperes II?
She obviously wasn't a real blonde! LOL As was discussed before, she wore a wig as some Egyptian royals were known to wear wigs of different colors which were very expensive. Some wigs were blonde while others red, blue, or green.
quote:Who was 'ginger'?
Ginger as explained here , is a mummy from the Naqada II period. Whether the reddish hue of his hair was due to the natural process of mummification of it was reddish in life, there is no evidence of him being European if that's what you're thinking.
Unless you consider this Peruvian mummy below to be a "ginger" girl with freckles in life.
quote:Why is Queen Nefertari blushing?
LMAO
Shes not blushing. The paint on her cheek is actually a remnant of her original skin tone:
Besides, last time I checked, natural blush produces a reddish color not a brownish one.
Posted by Calabooz' (Member # 18238) on :
quote:I stand my my contention that modern Copts are the closest living people to the ancient Egyptians.
Then how do you explain their change in phenotype, and significant admixture? Did we not go over this exhaustively? Stand by your beliefs all you want, doesn't make them true
Posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist (Member # 18853) on :
Terracotta Head of Menes (from L.A. Waddell, Egyptian Civilization Its Sumerian Origin and Real Chronology, 1930):
- Thin nose, straight hair, long beard. Not Negroid. Waddell also noted that the inlay to the eyes originally contained blue lapis lazuli stones, reflecting Menes original light eye-colour. Menes was a blue eyed Caucasian.
Posted by adrianne (Member # 10761) on :
1.Q. did the first ancient egyptians look like the guys above
A.yes or no
2.Q.are the guys above ANCIENT EGYPTIANS
A. yes or no
3.Q.do the guys above look like SUB SAHARAN africans
A.yes or no
whats taking so long to answer
Posted by rahotep101 (Member # 18764) on :
Djehuti
Epic fail. Black painted deities are black people, but blue-eyed figurines are weird looking aliens.
In a dozen image of Nefertari from her tomb the original colour retains only on the cheeks and lips, to make them look redder. What a coincidence! The second Nefertari image you showed is fake. The other two are not of a black person. Check out the lack of difference between the image of the queen and this Italian conservator... Two Mediterranean Caucasians together...
As for the predynastic mummy 'ginger', several brown haired mummies were descovered alongside him of similar age. If the desert turned him into a ginger, why not those as well?
Posted by rahotep101 (Member # 18764) on :
Blue eyed Egyptians are not the norm, but they are not unheard of...
Uploaded with ImageShack.us Posted by A Simple Girl (Member # 18316) on :
Here's another predynastic doll for thimble head to debunk. It appears to have blue eyes and tattoo's.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidiot: Terracotta Head of Menes (from L.A. Waddell, Egyptian Civilization Its Sumerian Origin and Real Chronology, 1930):
- Thin nose, straight hair, long beard. Not Negroid. Waddell also noted that the inlay to the eyes originally contained blue lapis lazuli stones, reflecting Menes original light eye-colour. Menes was a blue eyed Caucasian.
Is that figurine even Egyptian?? Please cite the source. For I have seen a lot of predynastic figures and have never before seen that! You are most likely mistaken.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by DaHo1000: Djehuti
Epic fail. Black painted deities are black people, but blue-eyed figurines are weird looking aliens.
Epic fail on your part. Where did I say it was an anomalous "alien"?? Where did I even said anything about black painted deities??! Your warped little mind must be confusing the claims of someone else for mine. Go back and read my post again especially my comment on the depiction of African deities.
quote:In a dozen image of Nefertari from her tomb the original colour retains only on the cheeks and lips, to make them look redder. What a coincidence!
Moron, does this look "red" to you?? Maybe you need to get your eyes checked.
^ Also notice the remnants of original dark paint are left on the cheek and lips, as well as NECK, NOSE, and CHIN. Perhaps instead of blushing she was having some allergic reaction! LOL
quote:The second Nefertari image you showed is fake. The other two are not of a black person. Check out the lack of difference between the image of the queen and this Italian conservator... Two Mediterranean Caucasians together...
^ You are obviously delusional if you think Nefertari looked like the woman in the photo.
Exactly what is "black" to you. Any person who saw a woman with chocolate complexion as hers
quote:As for the predynastic mummy 'ginger', several brown haired mummies were descovered alongside him of similar age. If the desert turned him into a ginger, why not those as well?
It may very well have. Are you saying the hair of 5,000 year old dried corpses remains the same even its color? What about skin??
Again was this ancient Peruvian woman a "ginger" as well?
I notice you ignored my other replies.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by DaHoisDum1001: Blue eyed Egyptians are not the norm, but they are not unheard of...
LOL Modern Egyptians of European ancestry maybe, but what of the ancients. What makes you think the girl above represents as opposed to these rural girls below:
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by A Simpleton: Here's another predynastic doll for thimble head to debunk. It appears to have blue eyes and tattoo's.
What is there to debunk?? What is there to suggest that the blue eyes were realistic let alone suggestive of Euro ancestry??
What about the blue eyes of this Incan Mummy mask?
Obviously the microchephalic head has gone out of control again.
Posted by rahotep101 (Member # 18764) on :
Djehuti
Too bloody right that Nefertari picture of yours is a fake! It's a big fat fake! The colours have been played with anyway. Leaving aside the darkened skintones, the vulture headress has been turned blue. In every true image the queen wears an entirely gold headdress.
Why is Nefertari blushing? Why aren't you?
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Waddell was a non-academician Aryan enthusiast with no training in anthropology, archaeology, Egyptology nor history.
He is the favorite pseudo-scholarly source for white supremacist intent on hi-jacking ancient world history for white northwest Europeans and making them and their culture to be Hebrew and Israelite.
You'll never find Waddell quoted in any main stream publication except as an example of foolishness parading as academics. Anyone citing him, or citing a reference that uses him, isn't being serious and is either akin to a pyramidiot or is having one over on you.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidiot: Terracotta Head of Menes (from L.A. Waddell, Egyptian Civilization Its Sumerian Origin and Real Chronology, 1930):
- Thin nose, straight hair, long beard. Not Negroid. Waddell also noted that the inlay to the eyes originally contained blue lapis lazuli stones, reflecting Menes original light eye-colour. Menes was a blue eyed Caucasian.
Is that figurine even Egyptian?? Please cite the source. For I have seen a lot of predynastic figures and have never before seen that! You are most likely mistaken.
Posted by rahotep101 (Member # 18764) on :
An Egyptian can have blue, grey, green or light coloured eyes without having (recent) European ancestry.
Dark eyes are obviously the norm.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Even though most of those statues have translucent marble that can either be blue or gray.
quote:Originally posted by DaDumho: Djehuti
Too bloody right that Nefertari picture of yours is a fake! It's a big fat fake! The colours have been played with anyway. Leaving aside the darkened skintones, the vulture headress has been turned blue. In every true image the queen wears an entirely gold headdress.
Is this fake?
quote:Why is Nefertari blushing? Why aren't you?
So she blushes not only in her cheeks and nose but her chin neck and apparently parts of her arms and hands too? LOL You are a joke.
Just face it. Nefertari was obviously much darker and the so-called "blush" as you put it are remnants of her original paint.
Posted by adrianne (Member # 10761) on :
1.Q. did the first ancient egyptians look like the guys above
A.yes or no
2.Q.are the guys above ANCIENT EGYPTIANS
A. yes or no
3.Q.do the guys above look like SUB SAHARAN africans
A.yes or no
whats taking so long to answer
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ They don't want to play games they know they'll use but rather want to play their own game of "debunk my b.s. AGAIN". Notice nobody answers what I point out.
Posted by Siptah (Member # 17601) on :
quote:Originally posted by rahotep101: This is a better photo of the Menes statue, the version black-Egypt advocates prefer has been somewhat distorted.
Both images represent the same sculpture under different times with different lighting and print quality conditions.
Here's a better image of the bust in both angles, set in print from the 20th century:
]
quote:"the version black-Egypt advocates prefer has been somewhat distorted."
Somewhat distorted by who, what, where, when, why and how?
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
You are obviously delusional if you think Nefertari looked like the woman in the photo.
describe why don't they look similar to you
Posted by rahotep101 (Member # 18764) on :
Djehuti
Yes the statues, mostly 4th Dynasty, have rock inlay eyes with a blue grey look. Why would they use that material? Why are you dodging the issue that at least a dozen different paintings of Nefertari from her tomb have blushing cheeks, when before you were trying to make out that the area was merely a trace of darker original paint that once covered the whole figure? Even on the paintings by different craftsmen within the same tomb, which have even colouring, it appears the same colour as the skin of Italians, in the same light.
Adrianne your question involves a logical non-sequitur. Just because a couple of Egyptians may have had these features it doesn't mean they were typical. You can't conclude that all the Medidics were mulattos, for example, just because Alessandro was.
The alleged Narmer/Menes statue looks as mongolois as negroid to me. The lips are quite thin and do not push out nearly as far as the nose. With pure negroids the lips often project as far forward as the tip of the nose. The statue's profile is quite perpendicular, there is no sunken nasal bridge. The eyes look oriental, with an epicanthic fold.
Same silly questions back at you...
WILL YOU ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS PLEASE
Did Old Kingdom Egyptians look like these people:
2. Are these people Ancient Egyptians, yes or no?
3. Do they look like sub saharan Africans? Yes or no.
Posted by anguishofbeansanddodo (Member # 6729) on :
Certainly this is a very common "look" among Black women in countries like Nigeria. It is also very common among Europeans I find.
Posted by rahotep101 (Member # 18764) on :
Yes, I'm sure the lady Noftet could have passed inconspicuously through a crowd of Nigerians...
These are the living representatives of Noftret's people: Egyptian Copts.
it is time for an end to the nonsensical idea that the Egyptians typically had the same racial characteristis as black Africans, as negrocentrists would have us believe. This is clearly not the case.
Posted by adrianne (Member # 10761) on :
1. no rahotep mixed race people were not the majority in 16th century italy,nobody said they were, but people who looked like menes and huni were the majority in egypt in the dynastic era, hence you cant and wont find caucasian pharoahs from that era, its been 2 days and counting since i challenged you and friends tio show me caucasian dynastic era pharoahs
WHATS TAKING SO LONG??
2.we know by the 4th dynasty foreigners came to egypt.
thats why i speciafically concentrated on the dynastic era i;e dynastys 1-3
she does look caucasian .she dosent look sub saharan, so what, she is a foreigner.
Posted by anguishofbeansanddodo (Member # 6729) on :
quote:Originally posted by rahotep101: Yes, I'm sure the lady Noftet could have passed inconspicuously through a crowd of Nigerians...
These are the living representatives of Noftret's people: Egyptian Copts.
it is time for an end to the nonsensical idea that the Egyptians typically had the same racial characteristis as black Africans, as negrocentrists would have us believe. This is clearly not the case.
Dumb ass I'm talking about features. Everything but the skin color, that's what I'm talking about.
Posted by Calabooz' (Member # 18238) on :
quote:An Egyptian can have blue, grey, green or light coloured eyes without having (recent) European ancestry.
And you know that the individuals don't have European ancestry how?
quote:it is time for an end to the nonsensical idea that the Egyptians typically had the same racial characteristis as black Africans, as negrocentrists would have us believe. This is clearly not the case.
Adrianne What evidence is there that Nofret was a 'foreigner' and that Huni was not? Both were members of related reigning dynasties. Huni's daughter Hetepheres I married Snefru and was the mother of Khufu and of Rahotep, who was the husband of Nofret. Nofet was probably a close blood relation as well, knowing what the Egypians were like. Nefertiabet, in the fetching leopardskin above, was Khufu's daughter, sister of Chephren, whose profile is above in the inside bottom corner of the Egyptian montage. None of these people resemble black Afrians. Anyway where is the evidence for a Caucasian influx between the two dynasties? There is ample evidence for caucasoids from the Predynastic era.
Posted by rahotep101 (Member # 18764) on :
Calabozo, it is not necessary for modern blue-eyed Egyptians to have post-dynastic Eurasian ancestry because there are blue eyed dynastic and predynastic Egyptian images. Black African means sub-saharan negroid, or peoples who are typically negroid. Yememi Arabs and southern Indians might be darker skinned than Nigerians but they aren't termed 'black'. As somone said, Japs and Irish can be similar colours without being remotely related. Also I'm not taking Egyptian art literally. Two of those images shown are of actual mummified Egyptians, not of paintings, and they are contrasted against actual black Africans. The racial difference is glaringly obvious. There is no reason why Egyptian women would be painted lighter in colour than they could ever be in reality. That is madness.
Posted by adrianne (Member # 10761) on :
you have just debunked your whole argument i want you to carefully look at the bloodlines of the two pharoahs above and the people you mentioned in your post , then we discuss how they look like they do
lolololo
Posted by rahotep101 (Member # 18764) on :
Calabozo which congregation would Nofret and Nefertiabet look most incongruous in, the Nigerian or the Egyptian one?
Posted by rahotep101 (Member # 18764) on :
Deluded negrocentrists are blind to logic and reason. Their eyes filter out anything that doesn't agree with their prejudices. No hope for them.
Posted by Calabooz' (Member # 18238) on :
I do not understand the need to involve such geographically distant places such as Nigeria for a comparison. But to answer your question, based on the sculpture alone, the Egyptian one. I say "based on the sculpture" because that may not be representing how she actually looked (see the thread I linked you to).
quote:Calabozo, it is not necessary for modern blue-eyed Egyptians to have post-dynastic Eurasian ancestry because there are blue eyed dynastic and predynastic Egyptian images.
I never said it was. However, by you saying this:
quote:An Egyptian can have blue, grey, green or light coloured eyes without having (recent) European ancestry.
And thereafter including modern Egyptian in your comparison, you implicate that you think those Egyptians you posted have no European ancestry.
Ancient Dynastic portraits reflecting blue eyes can not be take literally given the symbolic meaning of colors in their art
quote:Black African means sub-saharan negroid
No it doesn't. Black is a social term that came about to describe dark skinned people. If you saw an Ethiopian in the 1950s you can bet that they would be called black regardless of facial features.
quote:Yememi Arabs and southern Indians might be darker skinned than Nigerians but they aren't termed 'black'.
Social Construct- a term that would not have come about without society
Black came about as a descriptive of dark-skinned African descent populations. Not Middle Easterners. Hence the reason they are not called black
Herein lies your problem Rahotep,
A.You believe in a Hamitic hypothesis that has been debunked since the 70's
B.You think Africans with narrow features have Eurasian admixture, EVEN THOUGH THERE IS NO EVIDENCE FOR THIS
C.You think black is a descriptive of facial features.
D.You think Egyptians remained phenotypically the same for 5,000 years
All of the above has been refuted ad-nauseam
Posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist (Member # 18853) on :
''Waddell was a non-academician Aryan enthusiast with no training in anthropology, archaeology, Egyptology nor history.'' ============
Completely false. Waddell was an academic and polymath, a Fellow of the Linnean Society of London, a Doctor of law (LL.D) as well as a Master of Surgery (M.S.), hence his qualified background on physical anthropology (especially on the Sumerians, who alongside Arthur Keith, Leonard Woolley etc he proved were Caucasian).
You seem to troll this forum calling anyone who isn't an afrocentric, a crank, when you yourself are an afrocentrc crank who thinks the egyptians were negroid.
No scholar believes the egyptians were black. Only afrocentric cranks of the internet do.
Posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist (Member # 18853) on :
''whats taking so long to answer'' ====
The fact you didn't realise the 'Menes head' bust you keep showing was created c. 700 BC, over 2000 years AFTER Menes.
It's not an accurate image.
Posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist (Member # 18853) on :
''Deluded negrocentrists are blind to logic and reason'' ====
Couldn't agree more. The bigger joke is that they call anyone who thinks the egyptians were not black as 'eurocentrics' 'white supremacists' or pseudo-scholars (despite this is the mainstream concensus amongst historians and anthropologists regarding the ancient egyptian race issue).
As i said above, only cranks think the ancient egyptians were black.
Posted by anguishofbeansanddodo (Member # 6729) on :
Any white person who thinks the AEs were not black is certainly a white supremacist.
Is water wet?
Is sweet sour?
I could go but I really can't be bothered....
Posted by Calabooz' (Member # 18238) on :
You are literally describing yourself. We have given you tons of scientific evidence to substantiate our statements, only to have you repeat yourself in spite of the data.
The difference between you and us; you rely solely on subjective art whereas we rely on objective scientific findings
quote:Originally posted by rahotep101: Deluded negrocentrists are blind to logic and reason. Their eyes filter out anything that doesn't agree with their prejudices. No hope for them.
Posted by rahotep101 (Member # 18764) on :
I don't necessarily think narrow featured Africans have Eurasian admixture, but I'm fairly sure Egyptians do, given that they also have light skin and striaght or wavy rather than kinky hair, and that some of them have blue eyes. They also have the mass-reduced teeth and larger ears which are a Caucasian trait. Geography is also on the side of this conclusion. Egypt joins on to Eurasia, part of Egypt is in Asia, and the sea also connects it to both the North and East.
Eritreans also evidently have Caucasian ancestry, but I wouldn't make such claims about peoples like the Tutsis. Ancient Caucasian DNA has been found very far south among black African populations, however, for example the Lemba of South Africa, who claim to be lost Israelites. They look just like other black Africans, due to heavy intermixing, but the genetic trace is there.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by adrianne:
2.we know by the 4th dynasty foreigners came to egypt.
what are you referring to specifically ?
Posted by Calabooz' (Member # 18238) on :
quote:I don't necessarily think narrow featured Africans have Eurasian admixture, but I'm fairly sure Egyptians do, given that they also have light skin and striaght or wavy rather than kinky hair, and that some of them have blue eyes.
Foreign admixture in Egypt was restricted to Lower Egypt and even they were distinct from Near Easterners. Modern Egyptians have significant admixture from recent times from non-African populations.
And since when is hair a sign of admixture? That makes no sense. I highly doubt any of the ancient Egyptians had blue eyes.
quote:They also have the mass-reduced teeth and larger ears which are a Caucasian trait.
See, you have no idea what you are talking about. In the Nile Valley, Tooth reduction was associated with agriculture and changes in daily diet.
Origins of dental crowding and malocclusions: an anthropological perspective.
Rose JC, Roblee RD.
Compend Contin Educ Dent. 2009 Jun;30(5):292-300.
"David Greene studied the teeth of skeletons excavated in the Sudan just south of Egypt along the Nile and documented a long-term trend in dental-size reduction for the 10,000-year period. He suggested this reduction in tooth size was from changes in diet and methods of food processing as agriculture was adopted and refined. **Analysis of more samples by numerous researchers has established this general trend in tooth-size reduction that is associated with changes in diet**. As the diet has become more refined, the consequent increase in dental decay selected for smaller and less complex teeth has moved distally in relation to the skull, such that the body of the mandible now protrudes forward underneath the alveolar bone producing a chin. Because teeth have become smaller without producing excess room in the jaws, other evolutionary mechanisms must have been at work on the alveolar bone and supporting structures of the maxilla and mandible."
As for you suggestion on Ears, that absolutely makes no sense whatsoever.
quote:Geography is also on the side of this conclusion. Egypt joins on to Eurasia, part of Egypt is in Asia, and the sea also connects it to both the North and East.
This makes no sense. Just because to regions are close to each other doesn't mean there will be bi-directional gene flow. Let us not forget, Egypt IS in Africa NOT Asia. And as I said, gene flow was restricted to lower Egypt and it was Upper Egyptian civilization that became dynastic civilization.
quote:Eritreans also evidently have Caucasian ancestry, but I wouldn't make such claims about peoples like the Tutsis. Ancient Caucasian DNA has been found very far south among black African populations, however, for example the Lemba of South Africa, who claim to be lost Israelites. They look just like other black Africans, due to heavy intermixing, but the genetic trace is there.
Post the genetic evidence suggesting admixture in Eritreans. The Lemba are not descended from Israelites. You have no evidence for significant admixture amongst East Africans
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
Ankhwa the ship-builder Possibly from: Saqqara, Egypt Date: 3rd Dynasty, around 2600 BC
statue 288 Couple Louvre Museum, 1st floor; Egyptian antiquities; Room 22, The Old Empire, ca. 2700–2200
289 statue of a woman Louvre Museum, 1st floor; Egyptian antiquities; Room 22, The Old Empire, ca. 2700–2200
Louvre Museum, 1st floor; Egyptian antiquities; Room 22, The Old Empire, ca. 2700–2200
Posted by rahotep101 (Member # 18764) on :
@ Calabozo
The idea that Eurasian gene flow into Egypt would be restricted to the north is nonsense, because there was always frequent movement between north and south Egypt, from the Delta to Elephantine and back. Temples were twinned in religious cults, the pharaoh's court was peripatetic, and stone from the south was brought north for major construction projects like the pyramids. Workers also moved about. Egyptian Armies moved between alternating campaigns in Syria and Nubia, recruiting troops from the whole empire, so the idea of stagnant population within Egypt is just stupid.
Some people seem to grossly distort the size of Egypt, as though Upper Egypt was in the Congo Basin. It is still part of north Africa, and the middle-east. There were also ancient trade routes across the eastern desert connecting the southern Egyptian population centres to the Red Sea and the Arab world.
Posted by rahotep101 (Member # 18764) on :
@lioness Nice images.
Posted by cybiz777 (Member # 19579) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
You are obviously delusional if you think Nefertari looked like the woman in the photo.
describe why don't they look similar to you
Posted by cybiz777 (Member # 19579) on :
I find it amusing that some many Eurocentric posters in this forum are trying to discredit the idea that indigenous Africans were part of ancient Egypt. Using facial characteristics of statues or the pigment of paintings as "proof" of Egyptians being Caucasians (although Black features and racially ambiguous features are in equal or greater abundance) ignores Egypt’s immigration and military occupations. Are the people in the U.S. the same as those 5,000 years prior? Why would Egypt have a more stable identity while North America with a much later European and African immigration is extremely diverse? But the further you go back on the timeline in any African region, the Blacker it gets. Digging through Egypt’s history you will eventually have to cope with its Black bedrock when reach the bottom.
Posted by cybiz777 (Member # 19579) on :
By the way, Southern Itanlians have moorish blood. So, why wouldn't an Italian researcher in the picture above have some similarity to an Egyptian? They both have some Black ancestory.
Posted by cybiz777 (Member # 19579) on :
By the way, Southern Itanlians have moorish blood. So, why wouldn't an Italian researcher in the picture above have some similarity to an Egyptian? They both have some Black ancestory.
Posted by INTELEK2011 (Member # 19673) on :
Egyptians pictures themselves with a redish brown to dark brown skin for mens and sometimes almost beige for womans. Most of them wear braids like nubians.
If we take a quick look at the features of the pharaohs of the Ancient Kingdom(Khufu,Djoser etc).Nubians and Egyptians or indistinguishable.
The middle Kingdom of Egypt was from Aswan(Nubia) and started with the 12th Dynasty. As expected, strong Nubian features and dark coloring are seen in their sculpture and relief work. This dynasty ranks as among the greatest.
In the New Kingdom, Nubians and Egyptians were often so closely related that some scholars consider them virtually indistinguishable, as the two cultures melded and mixed together.
Egyptians skin tone goes from dark brown to beige
Pic of Amenhotep3 at the Louvre Paris (New kingdom)
Nubians paying tribute to ramess(British Museum)
You have on that pic nubians and egyptians with the same skin tone.
Nubians skin went from black to redish brown in general
Nubians and Egyptians skin tons representation can be found in every black people today .
Oh yeah the actual Copts
Jean-Francois Champollion decepherer of the hieroglyps about the copts
"The ancient Egyptians belonged to a race quite similar to the Kennous or Barabras, present inhabitants of Nubia. In the Copts of Egypt we do not find any of the characteristic features of the ancient Egyptian population. The Copts are the result of crossbreeding with all the nations that have successively dominated Egypt . It is wrong to seek in them the principal features of the old race."
Ancient Greeks about ancient Egyptians
Herodotus before the ptolemy's (-480 to -425), 'the father of history' describe the egyptians with "black skins and kinky hair" compare to the greeks
Aristotle, -389 to -332 about egyptians "who are too black are cowards, like for instance, the Egyptians and Ethiopians. But those who are excessively white are also cowards as we can see from the example of women, the complexion of courage is between the two"
Diodorus of Sicily, about -63 to +14 The Ethiopians say that the Egyptians `are one of their colonies,35 which was led into Egypt by Osiris.
Posted by rahotep101 (Member # 18764) on :
I think the Egyptians themselves knew better than any of the foreigners mentioned. The ancient Egyptians depicted themselves quite clearly, and they clearly resemble the Copts, not black Africans:
Egyptians black?? Posted by malibudusul (Member # 19346) on :
Posted by INTELEK2011 (Member # 19673) on :
Ok Rahotep Lets do it slowly so we can understand each other.
You did not comments my pics can you tell me if they are egyptians or not?? Amenenhotep 3 and Ramses 2 ?? They all have Dark skinned like the Nubians and are the rulers right.
I said that the skin tones of black people goes from Dark Brown/Black to light Beige and it is the same for ancient Egyptians.
Dark skinned womans with Braids...Do you think Copt womans or Arab Womans braid their hair??. You know that All african woman and all african descents braid their hair. Egypt is in Africa BTW
You did not comment the Quotes from Jean-Francois Campollion about the Copts.
"The ancient Egyptians belonged to a race quite similar to the Kennous or Barabras, present inhabitants of Nubia. In the Copts of Egypt we do not find any of the characteristic features of the ancient Egyptian population. The Copts are the result of crossbreeding with all the nations that have successively dominated Egypt . It is wrong to seek in them the principal features of the old race."
You did not comment the Quotes of Herodotus ,Aristoteles and Diodorus of Sicily about Ancient Egypt.
I'm still wainting.
Of Course they new the difference between races
From the tomb of Seti I.
From left to right(Syrian,Nubian,Lybian and Egyptian)
Dark Brown skin /Black Skin= Black People
Instead you are trying to show me Nubian Prisoners
What about the Lybians and Syrian prisonners???
Posted by malibudusul (Member # 19346) on :
Rahotep is a guy with serious mental problems
Rahotep, if you have proud to be white why not study the tribes and white civilizations?
Little is said about these white ^^^^^^^^ I'd like to know more
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
quote:Originally posted by INTELEK2011:
Of Course they new the difference between races
From the tomb of Seti I.
From left to right(Syrian,Nubian,Lybian and Egyptian)
Dark Brown skin /Black Skin= Black People
Damn I'm so sick of that caricatured stereotyped cartoon. Use Lepsius' facs repro.
And if a condensation is called for here's the same from Merneptah's tomb.
Egyptians knew nothing of race but they obviously knew a whole plethora of peoples and nations. The vignette from Seti I's tomb has accompanying text with an explicit two colour scheme of blacks and reds.
Posted by INTELEK2011 (Member # 19673) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
And if a condensation is called for here's the same from Merneptah's tomb.
Egyptians knew nothing of race but they obviously knew a whole plethora of peoples and nations. The vignette from Seti I's tomb has accompanying text with an explicit two colour scheme of blacks and reds. [/QB]
Why u did not added this one??
THE “TABLE OF NATIONS” SCENE IN THE TOMB OF RAMSES III
No matter what u say my friend.Nubians and Egyptians are closely related and are native black africans.Take a look at my previous post only blind people can Deny it
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
I don't know why you guys are arguing with Dahoslips. His only tactic are the same small sample of cherry-picked pictures of portraits where either the paint is faded or of conventionally yellow painted women.
The Egyptians knew who they were indeed!
Posted by malibudusul (Member # 19346) on :
red, yellow and white are symbolic colors
Posted by malibudusul (Member # 19346) on :
Lybians were not tanned They were white as paper.
if the Egyptians were white they would be painted in white.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
Djehooti, I noticed you removed one of your traditional cherry picks and replaced it with the "old kingdom overseer" from mathilda.
Why the replacement?
Also I've noticed there are quite a few people in the Egyptian art that look like Africans but that wood bust of a young Tutankhamun looks kind of like an Indian kid. What do you think?
Posted by INTELEK2011 (Member # 19673) on :
quote:Originally posted by malibudusul: Rahotep is a guy with serious mental problems
Rahotep, if you have proud to be white why not study the tribes and white civilizations?
Little is said about these white ^^^^^^^^ I'd like to know more
U bet
I'm still waiting for Rahotep responses.
He knows he can't back up his statements.
So pathetic
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by INTELEK2011:
quote:Originally posted by malibudusul: Rahotep is a guy with serious mental problems
Rahotep, if you have proud to be white why not study the tribes and white civilizations?
Little is said about these white ^^^^^^^^ I'd like to know more
U bet
I'm still waiting for Rahotep responses.
He knows he can't back up his statements.
So pathetic
_________________________
who is this Phaorah?
Posted by INTELEK2011 (Member # 19673) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by INTELEK2011: [QUOTE]Originally posted by malibudusul: [qb] Rahotep is a guy with serious mental problems
Rahotep, if you have proud to be white why not study the tribes and white civilizations?
Little is said about these white ^^^^^^^^ I'd like to know more
U bet
I'm still waiting for Rahotep responses.
He knows he can't back up his statements.
So pathetic
_________________________
Hi this is just the Avatar Image I choose. As you can see this is a false representation of a Pharaoh.This is the type of image that Rahotep like to use.
I look more like this Pharaoh.
Real representation of Amenhoptep 3 currently at the Louvre Paris.
BTW the golden Age of the New Kingdom was during his Reign
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Guys how about we just say there were both types in Egypt, Southern Egyptians and Delta types. Jesus..
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
Amenhoptep III
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Yes but even those other unpainted portraits of Amenhotep III speak volumes about his African appearance.
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass: Djehooti, I noticed you removed one of your traditional cherry picks and replaced it with the "old kingdom overseer" from mathilda.
Why the replacement?
My traditional selection (which hardly is not cherry picked since there are countless more painted portraits showing the same *true* BLACK appearance of Egyptians) is something that I keep off hand in case idiot trolls like Dahoslips would post their cherry picked samples of unpainted or paint-faded or yellow females as examples of Egyptians. The only reason for the random replacement was to mix it up a little and thus disproving YOUR point that my selection is always cherry picked. That it comes from Mathilda is and added bonus.
quote:Also I've noticed there are quite a few people in the Egyptian art that look like Africans but that wood bust of a young Tutankhamun looks kind of like an Indian kid. What do you think?
I think YOU too are an idiot troll! First off there are way more than a "few" people in Egyptian art who look African. More like close to 100%. And even though there are very dark i.e. black Indians, Tut does NOT look Indian. You are obviously an ignoramus who doesn't know much about the phenotypic diversity of Africans or hasn't seen that many Africans especially from eastern Africa for you to make such ludicrous comments.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
I hate to say this, but Egyptian art isn't the best source to consult for arguments about the Egyptians' appearance. I know it's tempting to use Egyptian painting as evidence for their blackness, but opponents will bring up the Old to Middle Kingdom "yellow woman" convention and either dismiss the darker characters as simply tanned or say that Egyptian artwork isn't meant to realistically render skin tones. I'd stick to bio-anthropological data.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by malibudusul: Libyans were not tanned They were white as paper.
I would be careful about this comment. First of all Libyans like Nubians consisted of diverse groups. The earliest Libyan group known are the Tehenu mentioned in protodynastic and Old Kingdom texts. These people were no different from Egyptians in skin color and overall physical appearance with the only difference being their attire and hairstyles. The 'white' types of Libya did not appear until New Kingdom times or perhaps the late Middle Kingdom; however, even then I've have been seeing more and more evidence to suggest these white types are over-exaggerated in presence if they even existed since all too many of the so-called 'white' Libyans show traces of original darker paint.
Examples:
* *
* *
And let us not forget that there are modern Berber remnants still existing today in Egypt's western desert like the Siwa and Farafra who are still largely black.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: I hate to say this, but Egyptian art isn't the best source to consult for arguments about the Egyptians' appearance. I know it's tempting to use Egyptian painting as evidence for their blackness, but opponents will bring up the Old to Middle Kingdom "yellow woman" convention and either dismiss the darker characters as simply tanned or say that Egyptian artwork isn't meant to realistically render skin tones. I'd stick to bio-anthropological data.
Actually the only thing the Euronuts have are the yellow women, but this too is flawed thinking since there is no way such a color disparity can exist between sexes even if the women stayed indoors and away from the sun throughout their entire lives. The dark reddish and especially chocolate dark skin being tans is also ludicrous. Another thing are the features which even narrow type traits are more akin to Africans than to fair-skinned Eurasians. And let's not forget the tropically adapted body proportions so common in Egyptian art with the long tapering arms and large feet. All of this together can still make a good argument for African origins.
Take for example Tut and his grandparents below...
What pray tell excuse would the Euronuts have for these images above?
You are still correct though that biological assessment of actual bodies is the best way to go when it comes to ascertaining physical appearance. Which is why it's too bad for the Euronuts that even racist scholarly works of the past 3 centuries has designated the ancient Egyptian phenotype to be "Abyssian". Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Actually the only thing the Euronuts have are the yellow women, but this too is flawed thinking since there is no way such a color disparity can exist between sexes even if the women stayed indoors and away from the sun throughout their entire lives.
True, but why must we assume that it's only the women who are being painted symbolically whereas the men are painted their real color?
quote:The dark reddish and especially chocolate dark skin being tans is also ludicrous.
Valid point. Most "Caucasoids" would have to get burned and wrinkled pretty badly before reaching that skin tone.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: What pray tell excuse would the Euronuts have for these images above?
They will charge that Tiye's bust is unpainted or that whatever paint it did have peeled off.
BTW what would you make of this ancient Mycenaean painting?
Would you argue that the Mycenaeans were black too?
Posted by INTELEK2011 (Member # 19673) on :
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Amenhoptep III
More pics
Posted by INTELEK2011 (Member # 19673) on :
I wonder Why RAHOTEP did not answer back...
Where the h**l is he hiding?? Can't back up his wrong statements.
Egypt is in Africa RAHOTEP never forget that.
quote:Originally posted by rahotep101:
I stand my my contention that modern Copts are the closest living people to the ancient Egyptians.
Since you like the copts so much i'll give you the Definition of the Copts an other time.
You did not comment the Quotes from Jean-Francois Campollion about the Copts.
"The ancient Egyptians belonged to a race quite similar to the Kennous or Barabras, present inhabitants of Nubia. In the Copts of Egypt we do not find any of the characteristic features of the ancient Egyptian population. The Copts are the result of crossbreeding with all the nations that have successively dominated Egypt . It is wrong to seek in them the principal features of the old race."
What does that mean RAHOTEP ???
Egyptians came from the south and went up north to conquer the hole Country.
The first time we heard about foreingers was during the late middle Kingdom.
The Hyksos (Egyptian heqa khasewet, "foreign rulers".
They were expelled from Egypt By Kamose and the Nubian Medjay.
What about the Lybians(Libu)?? The oldest known references to the Lybians(Libu) date to Ramesses II 13th century BC.
So where the crossbreeding explain by Champollion came from?? How can we explain the look of the copts???
During the Third intermediate period of Egypt or strarting with the Lybian Dynasty(22th) when all the foreingers From ancient (Lybia ,Assyria,persia,Greece and Rome) invaded Egypt.
Remember that the Nubians during the 25th dynasty never consider themselves as Foreiners.They were there since the begining ans during the New Kingdom the Amun of Napata was consider "Thrones of the Two Lands" for Nubia and Upper Egypt.
Only the western critics tend to make a Huge difference between Nubians and Egyptians.A Nubian Dynasty that is also call the "Black" pharaohs to make you understands that the others were not.Which is as you can see a Big lie and you are deep into it.
So the copts are the crossbreeding of all these foreing rulers.They got nothing to do with the original egyptians
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ I wouldn't even address that anti-African fool by the African name 'Rahotep'. I call him Dahoslips for obvious reasons and he is a small rat that comes and scurries away so I wouldn't worry too much about him.
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: True, but why must we assume that it's only the women who are being painted symbolically whereas the men are painted their real color?
Because anthropologists who have studied Egyptian remains even back in the 19th century have classified them as 'Abyssinian' type and have acknowledged that pristine Egyptians can be found in rural areas especially in the south and we know how such Egyptians look like.
quote:Valid point. Most "Caucasoids" would have to get burned and wrinkled pretty badly before reaching that skin tone.
Yes but "caucasoid" aren't a real entity anyway. Speaking of which...
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: They will charge that Tiye's bust is unpainted or that whatever paint it did have peeled off.
They can charge whatever we already have bio-anthropological evidence even going back to the 1800s saying the Egyptians were of the same type as northern Sudanese and Ethiopians.
quote:BTW what would you make of this ancient Mycenaean painting?
Would you argue that the Mycenaeans were black too?
Wow! This is the first of seen of this. These Mycenaeans look no different from Minoans. If Mycenaeans really were that complexion then yes they would be 'black'. Despite what others may think I have no double-standard. All complexions that dark would be 'black'. Since they appear the same as the Minoans and of course are a Greek/Aegean people, I wouldn't say all of them were black but like Takruri I acknowledge that there were obviously blacks among them as noted in Greek genetics today.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Wow! This is the first of seen of this. These Mycenaeans look no different from Minoans. If Mycenaeans really were that complexion then yes they would be 'black'. Despite what others may think I have no double-standard. All complexions that dark would be 'black'. Since they appear the same as the Minoans and of course are a Greek/Aegean people, I wouldn't say all of them were black but like Takruri I acknowledge that there were obviously blacks among them as noted in Greek genetics today.
I don't dispute that Greeks have Y-DNA lineages which can ultimately be traced to Africa, but if there were so many black Greeks as recently as the Bronze Age, what happened to them? Egypt still has plenty of black people, but I've never seen a photo of a black Greek; you'd think there would be at least a small number of black Greeks even today. Did they all get swamped by a wave of white invaders or something?
Posted by INTELEK2011 (Member # 19673) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Wow! This is the first of seen of this. These Mycenaeans look no different from Minoans. If Mycenaeans really were that complexion then yes they would be 'black'. Despite what others may think I have no double-standard. All complexions that dark would be 'black'. Since they appear the same as the Minoans and of course are a Greek/Aegean people, I wouldn't say all of them were black but like Takruri I acknowledge that there were obviously blacks among them as noted in Greek genetics today.
I don't dispute that Greeks have Y-DNA lineages which can ultimately be traced to Africa, but if there were so many black Greeks as recently as the Bronze Age, what happened to them? Egypt still has plenty of black people, but I've never seen a photo of a black Greek; you'd think there would be at least a small number of black Greeks even today. Did they all get swamped by a wave of white invaders or something?
The conventional view of Greeks during the Classical and Hellenetics ages states that the greek civilization had been arisen as the result of colonization around 2000-1500BC by Egyptians and also Pheonicians(Near east) who had civilized the native habitant.
Crete for Instance was culturally between egyptians and ancient Near eastern influence.Many archeological discoveries from Africa and the Near east has been found in Crete that proove that fact.
We can found the same influence everywhere in the Aeagean during the Early Bronze age.Thats why in Ancient Greece there was many place names, religious cults and words that come directly from Ancient Egypt.
Now that we explained that and we take an other look at this pic. It is possible to say that this is the representation by Mycenaeans of "foreing rulers" probably from Egypt or the Near east??
On the other hand these foreing rulers did not settle in Crete or in the Aegean.They were buisiness hot spots but I don't think they colonized theses areas to stay over there.that could explained why it is hard to find a 'Black' greek nowadays.
Probably because Egyptians performed around Aeagean sea the same kind of colonization that the French(Mercantilism) did in recent history oppose to the one performed by English(Settlement).
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