posted                      

quote:

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The ‘Two Brothers’ were first unwrapped at the Museum in 1908, a year after they were discovered by the great Egyptologist Flinders Petrie and his team, and have been on show there ever since.

source

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Coffin of Khnum-Nakht below:





Reconstruction of Khnum-Nakht below:





Coffin of Nekht-Ankh below:





Reconstruction of Nekht-Ankh below:





Actual skull of Khnum-Nakht below:





Actual shot of Khnum-Nakht torso and crania below:





Actual skull of Nekht-Ankh below





Why lioness and her kinfolk should refrain from imposing their sick ideologies on EA art!!

Art is not REAL, but subjective.
And so are the opinions and paradigms of the artist when they made their art
And so are our opinions about the paradigms the artist himself held in high regard when he made his art
And so are OUR opinions of what the artist depicted (African, Indian, nordic etc)
And so are OUR opinions on what the artist meant when he depicted what he depicted
(simple illustration of whats out there in the world, actual ancient Egyptian,
Nubian)

Unless something is stated by the artis himself or there is actual reasoning that justifies any claim, you're just exposing your own bias

Stop drooling over king Tuts small mouth and his large brows and get a life!

Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

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The report into the anatomical finding begins with the observation that there was a "remarkable racial difference in the features presented by each. These differences are so pronounced that it is almost impossible to convince oneself that they belong to the same race, far less to the same family.

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quote:

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On first inspection of the bones at this skeleton the writer was much struck with their slimness, delicate moulding, and the faintness of the muscular impressions; indeed, their female character proved to be so pronounced that at first it was difficult to be sure that the skeleton was really that of a male. The pelvis was reunited and proved to have all the characteristics of a male".

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Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

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Both statues/coffins below belong to Sekhemre Herwhormaat, who is the same entity as Intef VIII of the 17th dynasty:

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Intef VIII (or Antef) Sekhemreheruhirmaat was an Egyptian king of the Seventeenth dynasty of Egypt, who ruled during the Second Intermediate Period, when Egypt was divided between the Theban based 17th Dynasty in Upper Egypt and the Hyksos 15th Dynasty who controlled Lower and part of Middle Egypt.

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Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

The coffin of Meresamun, a singer-priestess in Thebes:





iCT scan of the coffin & Cranium of Meresamun below:




Closeup iCT scan of the coffin & Cranium of Meresamun below:




^Notice the nice visible contrast between the ortochnathous coffin, and the prognathous cranium
Notice the protruding chin on the coffin, but the receding chin on the cranium


The frontal view of Meresamun below:

quote:

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Meresamun’s identity is unclear. Her name, shown in an inscription on the casket, means “She Lives for Amun” (an Egyptian god).

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quote:

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She was an attractive woman with wide-set eyes, a symmetrical face, prominent cheekbones and a long neck.

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According to the inscription she served as a “Singer in the Interior of the Temple of Amun”, one of a number of priestess-musicians who performed during rituals dedicated to the god.

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Meresamun was one of the higher ranking “interior” singers, some of whom served members of the Egyptian ruling family

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The scans suggest she was about five foot five inches tall and aged in her late 20s or early 30s when she died.

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Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

Harwa’s coffin below:





Harwa’s Skull/face below:





Reconstruction of Harwa’s face below:

quote:

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The team started with the wrapped mummy of Harwa, an artisan who is thought to have lived sometime between 945 and 715 B.C. The mummy was found in the early 1900s in Egypt's Valley of the Queens by Italian Egyptologist Ernesto Schiaparelli, and brought to the Egyptian Museum in Turin.

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quote:

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Based on the virtual reconstruction, the researchers said Harwa was about 45 years old when he died. "The teeth are in poor condition, and no other evidence of disease can be seen," they said.

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Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kalonji:
Ka-aper statue below:



Ka-aper Mural depiction below:

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Wow - this is something that would drive the average Stormfronter up a wall. Eurocentric academics always liked to show the top sculpture in books, of course neglecting to mention the brown paint still found on other parts of his body as is the same with some of the other Old Kingdom scribes.


Lyin'ess where are you.

Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Pure_Egyptian:
but you would probably think i was Southern European

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You realize the Southern Europeans(Greeks) made a difference between you and them...Wanna take a guess what they called you....GUESS..

Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Pure_Egyptian:
I don't know, surprise me? I am Tan with curly hair.. seems pretty mediteranean to me...

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Aww come on brother, I thought you were a Southern European?? Whats wrong?? BTW, Southern Europeans don't even consider themselves "Mediteranian" as it is according to them a sea, they consider themselves usually White Europeans. I think you are an American Imposter or maybe an Arab.

Second on your claims of being a Fallahin..





Also we know Bedoins and Arabs were placed with the Fellahin in Upper Egypt..

Upper Egypt comprises the country's eight southernmost governorates. ... the region's history is one of isolated removal from the center of national life. The local relationships resulting from this centuries-old condition gave Upper Egypt an identity of its own within the modern Egyptian state. Alongside the even more ancient presence of Copts, tribal groupings dating from the Arab conquest combined to form a hierarchical order that placed two [minority] groups, the ashraf and the Arab, in dominating positions. These were followed by lesser tribes, with the [Egyptian] fellah at the bottom of the social scale(28) [...] Religion was central to the development of Upper Egyptian society. The ashraf claimed indirect descent from the Prophet, while the Arabs traced their lineage to a group of tribes from Arabia. On the other hand, the status of the fellahin rested on the belief that they descended from Egypt's pre-Islamic community and had converted to Islam, a history that placed them inescapably beneath both the Ashraf and Arabs. [...] In Muslim as well as Christian communities, and particularly at the lower socio-economic levels, religious practices are strongly imbued with non-orthodox folk elements, some of pharaonic origin.[11]

More Fellahin

Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Pure_Egyptian:
Wow, i am an egyptian myself, and you can find all those faces in Egypt and Egypt only, AE and Modern Egyptian are of the same stock, AE are not black, and how dare you guys compare my people to those spear chuckers in cameroon and other west/central african countries like that

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Pure Egyptian
I'm interested in what you make of this image. In case you don't know, the population ''Naqada'' on the image below represents the people that layed the foundation for most things we associate with ancient Egypt. What populations are closest the to ''Naqada''?

Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Kalonji:

Art is not REAL, but subjective.
And so are the opinions and paradigms of the artist when they made their art
And so are our opinions about the paradigms the artist himself held in high regard when he made his art
And so are OUR opinions of what the artist depicted (African, Indian, nordic etc)
And so are OUR opinions on what the artist meant when he depicted what he depicted
(simple illustration of whats out there in the world, actual ancient Egyptian,
Nubian)

Unless something is stated by the artis himself or there is actual reasoning that justifies any claim, you're just exposing your own bias

Stop drooling over king Tuts small mouth and his large brows and get a life!

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quote:

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To make matters even worst for Eurocentric art droolers, the first coffin that contained Khnum-Nakht, that is the one with lighter painted coffin, held the body that was considered negroid, while the second coffin, the one with the pitch black painted face, held the remains of what was taught of as ''caucasian'' when early researchers found them:

The report into the anatomical finding begins with the observation that there was a "remarkable racial difference in the features presented by each. These differences are so pronounced that it is almost impossible to convince oneself that they belong to the same race, far less to the same family.

Of course, now that we have the reconstructions, we can see that both crania had broad facial features, while displaying the cranial features that are typical of Eastern Africans.

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The reported findings are stupid. Anyone with eyes can see from the reconstructions that the ONLY difference between the brothers is that one is prognathous while the other orthognathous. Other than that, they both have the same shape nose and full lips. As if prognathy or orgnathy among one sibling but not the other is doesn't happen within black families of African descent, let alone black populations in Africa! What's interesting is that the so-called "negroid" brother has the longer length face more commonly associated with "caucasians" whereas the "caucasian" brother has a short length face commonly associated with "negroids". Again, BOTH have wide noses and thick lips as well as heavy brow ridges.

quote:

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The slight build of Nekht-Ankh, the so-called less negroid of the two, further substatiates that he belonged to gracile Africans of whom the EA were a variant:

"On first inspection of the bones at this skeleton the writer was much struck with their slimness, delicate moulding, and the faintness of the muscular impressions; indeed, their female character proved to be so pronounced that at first it was difficult to be sure that the skeleton was really that of a male. The pelvis was reunited and proved to have all the characteristics of a male"."

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Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by Pure_Egyptian:
Wow, i am an egyptian myself, and you can find all those faces in Egypt and Egypt only, AE and Modern Egyptian are of the same stock, AE are not black, and how dare you guys compare my people to those spear chuckers in cameroon and other west/central african countries like that

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I see a lot of faces from Armenia, Greece, Lebanon Turkey, and Central Asia in northern Egypt. Wonder what happened to these people that have inundated Egypt during the last 1000 years.

Go back to your Klan meeting.!

Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Truthcentric:
I too have noticed that, when you look at the mummified remains of ancient Egyptians from the dynastic period, they often seem a little prognathous. Not quite as prognathous as West or Central Africans, maybe, but certainly more prognathous than what you'd expect from "Caucasoids". Of course, that's just my layman's eyeballing; someone should really do an anthropometric study on how common prognathism is in dynastic Egyptian mummies.

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Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
Back to the topic...

quote:

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Originally posted by Kalonji:

Art is not REAL, but subjective.
And so are the opinions and paradigms of the artist when they made their art
And so are our opinions about the paradigms the artist himself held in high regard when he made his art
And so are OUR opinions of what the artist depicted (African, Indian, nordic etc)
And so are OUR opinions on what the artist meant when he depicted what he depicted
(simple illustration of whats out there in the world, actual ancient Egyptian,
Nubian)

Unless something is stated by the artis himself or there is actual reasoning that justifies any claim, you're just exposing your own bias

Stop drooling over king Tuts small mouth and his large brows and get a life!

---

Indeed. Not only is art subjective but to make things more complicated, Egyptian art tends to be very symbolic especially with things like color. I can't help but notice every time a portrait, usually a small figurine or coffin is painted in a light color or most commonly left unpainted showing the light color of the wood, they (the Euronuts) assume it to be the actual skin color of the person yet when it is painted in black, they automatically say it is "symbolic". What's interesting is that in another thread we find that some Egyptian coffins were painted in a yellowish or golden color symbolic of the radiant sun and heavenly deities.

quote:

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To make matters even worst for Eurocentric art droolers, the first coffin that contained Khnum-Nakht, that is the one with lighter painted coffin, held the body that was considered negroid, while the second coffin, the one with the pitch black painted face, held the remains of what was taught of as ''caucasian'' when early researchers found them:

The report into the anatomical finding begins with the observation that there was a "remarkable racial difference in the features presented by each. These differences are so pronounced that it is almost impossible to convince oneself that they belong to the same race, far less to the same family.

Of course, now that we have the reconstructions, we can see that both crania had broad facial features, while displaying the cranial features that are typical of Eastern Africans.

---

The reported findings are stupid. Anyone with eyes can see from the reconstructions that the ONLY difference between the brothers is that one is prognathous while the other orthognathous. Other than that, they both have the same shape nose and full lips. As if prognathy or orgnathy among one sibling but not the other is doesn't happen within black families of African descent, let alone black populations in Africa! What's interesting is that the so-called "negroid" brother has the longer length face more commonly associated with "caucasians" whereas the "caucasian" brother has a short length face commonly associated with "negroids". Again, BOTH have wide noses and thick lips as well as heavy brow ridges.

quote:

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The slight build of Nekht-Ankh, the so-called less negroid of the two, further substatiates that he belonged to gracile Africans of whom the EA were a variant:

"On first inspection of the bones at this skeleton the writer was much struck with their slimness, delicate moulding, and the faintness of the muscular impressions; indeed, their female character proved to be so pronounced that at first it was difficult to be sure that the skeleton was really that of a male. The pelvis was reunited and proved to have all the characteristics of a male"."

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Okay. So the skeletal build of the so-called "caucasian" brother was very slender and gracile. The question is was it tropically adapted? Did it have elongated limb proportions associated with black peoples? I'm willing to bet yes.

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Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

^ Yes, and by 'Rift Valley' foreigners, I take it you mean the prehistoric remains found in the Rift Valley region of Kenya and Tanzania which were mistakenly called "caucasoid". Our M.I.A. veteran Rasol was so right to point out how racial polemics persists because of false concepts as "true negro" and all one has to do is examine such faulty concepts in order for the polemics to fall apart. Notice of course there is never a concept of "true caucasian" which is why Eurocentric scholars of past managed to classify any peoples from Africa to the Pacific as "caucasian".

But again getting back to what you said about artwork I must point out that more often than not, instead of many of these portraits being painted a lighter color, the dark paint has faded.

We can clearly see this in the coffin of Nesyamun.



^ The residue of original complexion now looks like dirt on the face.

If you look close enough you can probably see very faint traces of original dark paint around the peeled off areas of Khnum-Nakht around the eyes, cheek, mouth, and neck.



The question is whether such paint erosion is natural or artificial even deliberate.

Remember the seated scribe touted by Euronuts...



and how it originally looked.



Art is subjective, but it is also alterable!

quote:

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^Lets stop with the insults people.
Ausar traced his IP and he IS an Egyptian.

That is still no excuse for his behavior though.

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Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Kalonji:
^Lets stop with the insults people.
Ausar traced his IP and he IS an Egyptian

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Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by anguishofbeing:

quote:

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Originally posted by Kalonji:
^Lets stop with the insults people.
Ausar traced his IP and he IS an Egyptian

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An IP address can determine ethnicity/nationality?

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Akoben using his trademark again.

Got anything to add to this topic?
That goes for anyone by the way, feel free to add.

Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Yes, and by 'Rift Valley' foreigners, I take it you mean the prehistoric remains found in the Rift Valley region of Kenya and Tanzania which were mistakenly called "caucasoid". Our M.I.A. veteran Rasol was so right to point out how racial polemics persists because of false concepts as "true negro" and all one has to do is examine such faulty concepts in order for the polemics to fall apart. Notice of course there is never a concept of "true caucasian" which is why Eurocentric scholars of past managed to classify any peoples from Africa to the Pacific as "caucasian".

But again getting back to what you said about artwork I must point out that more often than not, instead of many of these portraits being painted a lighter color, the dark paint has faded.

We can clearly see this in the coffin of Nesyamun.



^ The residue of original complexion now looks like dirt on the face.

If you look close enough you can probably see very faint traces of original dark paint around the peeled off areas of Khnum-Nakht around the eyes, cheek, mouth, and neck.



The question is whether such paint erosion is natural or artificial even deliberate.

Remember the seated scribe touted by Euronuts...



and how it originally looked.



Art is subjective, but it is also alterable!

quote:

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^Lets stop with the insults people.
Ausar traced his IP and he IS an Egyptian.

That is still no excuse for his behavior though.

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True. His nationality matters not. Though as I said, just because someone's nationality is Egyptian does not mean he has if any native Egyptian ancestry going back to pharaonic times and that ancestry only.

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Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

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However lot of these wood coffins are inferior in realism compared to stone sculpture and plaster.

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Some of the plaster heads are very realistic especially if uncolored and unadorned.

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These can be similar looking to European plaster death masks of the middle ages which were cast from the actual dead person's head.

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Some of the stone sculptures are finely crafted important larger sculptures and others are not as well crafted smaller less significant sculptures.

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In the finer works there are realistic pieces that look like accurate human being's heads and there are other fine pieces where the proportions are artistically stylized as with some of the famous sculptures of Akhenaten where the head and neck are elongated in impossible proportions. If you compare this to the plaster heads of Akhenaten and members of his court the plaster heads are in realistic proportions.

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There are multiple outstanding problems associated with forensic facial reconstruction. The most pressing issue relates to the data used to average facial tissue thickness. The data available to forensic artists are still very limited in ranges of ages, sexes, and body builds. This disparity greatly affects the accuracy of reconstructions. Until this data is expanded, the likelihood of producing the most accurate reconstruction possible is largely limited.

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Given these problems if you are comparing a realistic stone sculpture or plaster head to a modern facial reconstruction at least it can be said that in many cases the sculpture was produced by artisans who had actually studied the person in the flesh.

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Look at the seated scribe posted by Dehooti
It doesn't matter which film version the orangey or the brown

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File this with the Tut bust under
Why do Afrocentrists pass off this sculpture as Negro?

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Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Kalonji:
You don’t know ... you’re just talking out of your neck.

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Tell me about it. Thats all it does.

Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

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the post-bregmatic depression is a small depression situated behind bregma on the cross section of the sagittal and coronal sutures

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Whether or not the bust was a ‘’Negro’’, is just a distraction that I’m not going to indulge myself in. It isn’t about who or what the bust was supposed to represent, it is about who the makers were.

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The depictions ‘’you’’ (with emphasis on YOU) deem realistic don’t equal ‘’accurate’’ more than the stylistic ones. See, stylistic can extend into the ‘’weird’’ end of the spectrum, as well as the ‘’pretty’’ end of the spectrum. In other words, just because an artistic depiction isn’t weird or deviant doesn’t mean that it’s more accurate in terms of presenting likeness to the person it was intended to represent.

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Talk about Europeans is inane, since the AE had a worldview that was derived/spun off from their African cultural substratum. That means Egyptians and Europeans have a fundamental different way of viewing things. This means that your comparison, sir, has just been reduced to rubble.

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One could argue, if there would be a time to depict someone the way he/she looked in real life, it would be in imagery surrounding someone’s death. But if they weren’t motivated to do so in said critical moments, what makes you think realistic art played a large role outside of funerary depictions?

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There was very limited freedom of artistic expression in AE. Almost every step had to follow some kind of rigid rule or tradition. This is exactly why a break from pre-Amarna artistic rules in the Amarna period was so noticeable. There is no consistent realism in ancient Egyptian art, and they certainly weren’t guided by what is today known as realism.

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Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Kalonji:



^The African morphology of King Tut beside his Hawass reconstruction. Notice the post bregmatic depression, which occurs more often in Sub-Saharan Africans

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Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness:
Problems with facial reconstruction

There are multiple outstanding problems associated with forensic facial reconstruction. The most pressing issue relates to the data used to average facial tissue thickness. The data available to forensic artists are still very limited in ranges of ages, sexes, and body builds. This disparity greatly affects the accuracy of reconstructions. Until this data is expanded, the likelihood of producing the most accurate reconstruction possible is largely limited.

A second problem is the lack of a methodological standardization in approximating facial features. A single, official method for reconstructing the face has yet to be recognized. This also presents major setback in facial approximation because facial features like the eyes and nose and individuating characteristics like hairstyle - the features most likely to be recalled by witnesses - lack a standard way of being reconstructed.

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Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged |