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Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
 
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Caucasoid Face

El-Najjar and McWilliams (1978:74) describe the Caucasoid face as a "hatchet face" due to the fact that the face aligns vertically in the sagittal plane. There is little or no prognathism
exhibited, because Caucasoids have an
orthognathic face with little protrusion in the dental region of the skull (Bass 1995:88).

The malar bones (zygomatic bones)
retreat in the Caucasoid skull which can
make the skull appear somewhat "pointed" (Ubelaker 1989: 119). In the nasal region, Caucasoids possess a rather large and sharp nasal sill (Bass 1995:88). EI-Najjar and McWilliams (1978:74) describe the Caucasoid nasal root depression as well-marked, and mention
that the "...superior ends of the nasal bones often seem to disappear beneath an overhanging projection at glabella". Gill (1986:148-149) refers to the Caucasoid nose as narrow with a long, straight nasal spine and large nasal
bones.

Ubelaker (1989:119) describes the Caucasoid palate as narrow and triangular, as does Gill (1986:150) who also mentions that the palatine suture has sharp angles close to, but not on, the
midline. El-Najjar and McWilliams (1978:74) and Gill (1986:149) both describe the Caucasoid orbital form as rounded. Gill (1986:151) discusses the mastoid form and its use in identifying race from a skull, and states that the Caucasoid mastoid process is narrower, and more pointed than Negroid or Mongoloid mastoid processes. According to Lahr (1996:47), metopism "...is by definition the abnormal persistence of the mediofrontal suture into adulthood", and Lahr states that metopism can occur in Caucasoid, Negroid and Mongoloid
skulls, but it is most commonly found in
Caucasoid skulls.

Negroid Face

According Negroid faces to Bass (1995:92),
are renowned for exhibiting prognathism, facial prognathism, is pronounced in Negroid skulls (Gill 1986:149). The nasal form is broad, the nasal bones are medium/small and heavy, the nasal
profile is straight or concave and the nasal spine is somewhat reduced (Gill
1986: 148-149). Ubelaker (1989:119) describes the
Negroid palate as wide, and rectangular
in shape. When discussing the use of the mastoid form in determining race from a skull, Gill (1986:150-151) states that "...the very oblique angle of the Negroid mastoid with its characteristically small tubercle along the inferior border constitutes the most distinctive of the mastoid forms".

Post (1969) conducted a study comparing the size of the external opening of the tear duct, or nasolachrymal canal, between American Negroids and Caucasoids. Post (1969:85) concluded that American Negroids possessed shorter nasolachrymal
canals.

Mongoloid Face

Bass (1995:92) describes the Mongoloid face as flat, due to the extreme projection of the malar bones. Bass mentions that not only do the zygomatic bones protrude forward, but
they also project inferiorly, below the inferior border of the maxilla. Mongoloid faces exhibit medium prognathism, but it is not as extreme as it is in Negroid skulls (El- Najjar & McWilliams 1978:75). El- Najjar and McWilliams (1978:75)
describe the Mongoloid orbital form as triangular.

Mongoloid nose form is medium, with small nasal bones and a concave nasal profile. The nasal spine and nasal sill are described as medium (Gill 1986:149). Ubelaker (1989:119) mentions that the Mongoloid nasal aperture tends to have a pointed lower margin, and Bass (1995:92) notes that Mongoloid skulls exhibit a nasal overgrowth. "The nasal bones project
forward beyond their junction with the
frontal portion of the maxilla" (Bass
1995:92). Gill (1986: 151) describes the
Mongoloid mastoid process as wide and vertical, and mentions that there is some similarity between the shape of Mongoloid and Caucasoid mastoid processes.

Racial Difference in Mandible

Shultz argues that a Negroid mandible has a "...lower, wider, and more vertical ramus; greater corpal and dental arch length, i.e., a long U-shaped dental arch; relatively smaller breadth dimensions; a less dominant chin, i.e.,
mental tubercles more medial in position
and smaller" (Shultz in Krogman & Iscan 1986:280).

In contrast, a Caucasoid mandible "...has larger breadth measures; a higher, narrower ramus; a greater gonial angle; ramal surfaces more parallel to the median sagittal plane; (and) a more protrusive chin with mental tubercles more lateral in position" (Krogman & Iscan
1986:279).

Gill (1986:149) also notes racial variations in the mandible, and describes a Negroid mandible as gracile, with an oblique gonial angle. It has a reduced chin projection, a median chin form and
"...an undulating mandibular border, (and) a narrow posterior aspect to the horizontal mandibular ramus" (Gill 1986:149-150). A Caucasoid mandible exhibits a medium degree of robusticity, with prominent chin projection and a
bilateral chin form. A Mongoloid mandible is robust, similar to a Negroid mandible, with moderate chin projection and a median chin form (Gill 1986:149).

Ubelaker (1989:119) has made the observation that the anterior alveolus in a Negroid mandible is quite projecting in comparison with Caucasoid and Mongoloid mandibles. This is due to the
pronounced prognathism.

Racial Differences in Teeth

It has lonh been observed that Caucasoids have the smallest (microdont) teeth (Coon, 1962: 354). According to Ubelaker (1989:120), evidence suggests that "...maxillary lateral incisors of diminished size and variable form are more common among whites, such as peg-shaped forms and
miniature versions of normal teeth".

Gill (1986:149-150) describes the Caucasoid parabolic palate as triangular, and states that the reduced prognathism seen in Caucasoid skulls is due to consistent dental crowding.

Krogman and Iscan (1986:369) describe Caucasoid dental roots as shorter, straighter, and less splayed than Negroid or Mongoloid dental roots.

One major feature of Mongoloid dentition is an edge-to-edge bite that occurs when the mandible and maxilla are occluded. The incisor teeth will
occlude edge-to-edge without showing the overbite that is commonly found in Caucasoid dentition. Occlusal wear on the incisors will usually indicate a Mongoloid skull (Bass 1995:92).

The one dental trait that can be said to be diagnostic of Mongoloid dentition is shovel-shaped incisors. Shovel-shaped incisors have "...prominent marginal ridges on the lingual surface, giving them a "shovel-shaped" appearance" (Ubelaker 1989: 120). This occurs with a high frequency in Mongoloidpopulations. According to Eckert (1997:308), shovel-shaped incisors occur in 85-99% of Mongoloid dentitions.

 -

Sources

Bass, William M. 1995. Human
Osteology: A Laboratory and Field
Manual. Columbia: Missouri
Archaeological Society, Inc.

Coon, Origin of Races. 1962.

Eckert, William G. 1997. Introduction to
Forensic Science. United States of
America: CRC Press, Inc.

EI-Najjar, Mahmoud Y. and K Richard
McWilliams 1978. Forensic
Anthropology: The Structure,
Morphology and Variation of
Human Bone and Dentition. Illinois:
Charles C. Thomas.

Gill, George W. 1998. "Craniofacial
Criteria in the Skeletal Attribution
of Race. " In Forensic Osteology:
Advances in the Identification of
Human Remains. (2nd edition)
Reichs, Kathleen l(ed.), pp.293-
315.

Gill, George W. 1986. "Craniofacial
Criteria in Forensic Identification."
In Forensic Osteology: Advances in
the identification of Human
Remains. Reichs, KI(ed.). pp. 143-
159. Springfield: Charles C.

Krogman, Wilton Marion and Mehmet
Yascar Iscan 1986. The Human
Skeleton in Forensic Medicine.
Springfield: Charles C.Thomas.

Lahr, Marta Mirazon 1996. The
Evolution of Modern Human
Diversity: A Study of Cranial
Variation. Britain: University Press,
Cambridge. Thomas.

Post, Richard H. 1969. Tear Duet Size
Differences of Age, Sex and Race.
American Journal of Physical
Anthropology. 30:85-88.

Ubelaker, Douglas H. 1989. Human
Skeletal Remains: Excavation,
Analysis and Interpretation.
Washington: Taraxacum.
 
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
 
There are tribes in Africa that contain all of the racial forms you have illustrated because of climatic and dietary variations.

Since we know that these facial forms are due to climate and diet then features that are Caucasoid can change to Negroid simply due to migration and in situ evolution consequently these facial forms do not imply relatedness. The only relatedness implied by facial form is climate and diet adaptation.
 
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by osirion:
There are tribes in Africa that contain all of the racial forms you have illustrated because of climatic and dietary variations.

Since we know that these facial forms are due to climate and diet then features that are Caucasoid can change to Negroid simply due to migration and in situ evolution consequently these facial forms do not imply relatedness. The only relatedness implied by facial form is climate and diet adaptation.

Go back to cuckooland. Negroid tribes do not have Caucasoid features. You have an obsession to attatch yourself to white features when you are black. You repeatedly expose your self-hate. If you think Negroids have Caucasoid features such as blonde or red straight-wavy hair and thin noses then show the scientific evidence. Where are these supposed negroes with thin noses and straight hair?

Above are all scientific sources. Go through them and actually learn something. Stop denying science for your own biased agenda. And for the last time - stop the self hate, just admit what your race looks like. Next you will probably be claiming negroes have pale white skin, [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
 
Caucasoid Cranial-Facial Features

(a) narrow nasal aperture and tear shaped nasal cavity (Coon, 1939, 1962; 1982, Pearson, 1974; Krogman, 1986; Gill, 1986; 1990, 1998, Brues, 1990; Wilkinson, 2004).

(b) orthognathic (straight) jaw with minimal or absent prognathism (Coon, 1962; ; Krogman; 1986; Gill, 1986; Bass, 1995, Wilkinson, 2004).

(c) round sagittal contour (Pearson, 1985; Gill, 1986; Wilkinson, 2004).

(d) retreating zygomatic arch (Gill, 1986; Ubelaker, 1989; Clament & Ramson 1998)

(e) nasal sill (Gill, 1986, 1990; Bass, 1995).

(f) prominent chin (Gill, 1990; Wilkinson, 2004).

(g) microdont (small) teeth (Coon, 1962; Krogman, 1986).

Caucasoid Phenotype

(a) leptorrhine (thin) prominent nose (Coon, 1939, 1962; Cole, 1965; Pearson, 1974; Hinderer, 1978; Brues, 1990) but a wide nasal septum (on average 4. 75 mm) because of the nasal cartilage supporting its shape (Schultz, 1913; Wilkinson 2004).

(b) cymotrichous (wavy) hair (Keane, 1900; Bean, 1923; Haddon, 1925; Taylor, 1949; Coon, 1962; Baker, 1974; Pearson, 1985; Gordon, 1993).

(c) heavy growth of facial and body hair (Coon, 1962; Pearson, 1985; Brues, 1990).

(d) pigmentation of skin hue ranging from pale white, ruddy-pink to a darker brunette-white or olive colour (Grant, 1916; Hooton, 1946; Coon, 1939; 1962; Pearson, 1985).

(e) The hair colour in Caucasoids also is incredibly diverse, ranging from fair to dark of all shades, red, auburn, brown, black and blonde (Taylor, 1949; Cole, 1965; Coon, 1982).

=====================================

osirion has made the crackpot claim Negroid tribes have the above features -

So here is my challenge:

POST A PHOTO of a -

*Thin nosed/wavy haired/straight jawed Negro with freckles, and red or blonde hair.

Good luck. [Wink]
 
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
 
Anyone wanting to learn about Caucasoid, Negroid and Mongoloid racial differences and origins should look at the following works -

Researches into the Physical History of Man by James Cowles Prichard (1813, 3rd Ed. 1844)
Races of Man and Their Geographical Distribution by Charles Pickering (1848)
The Races of Man: a fragment by Robert Knox (1850)
An Essay on the Inequality of the Human Races by Arthur de Gobineau (1853)
Types of Mankind by George Gliddon, Josiah Nott, Samuel George Morton and Louis Aggasiz (1854)
Indigenous Races of the Earth by George Gliddon and Josiah Nott (1857, 2nd Ed. 1868)
On the Geographical Distribution of the Chief Modifications of Mankind by Thomas Huxley (1870)
The Races of Man: and their geographical distribution by Oscar Peschel (1876)
The Races of Britain by John Beddoe (1885)
Anthropological History of Europe by John Beddoe (1893)
The Study of Man by Alfred Cort Haddon (1898)
The Races of Europe by William Zebina Ripley (1899)
The Races of Man: an outline of anthropology and ethnography by Joseph Deniker (1900)
The Mediterranean Race by Guiseppe Sergi (1901)
The Races of Man and their Distribution by Alfred Cort Haddon (1909)
Jews: A Study of Race and Environment by Maurice Fishberg (1911)
European and Other Race Origins by Herbert Bruce Hannay (1915)
Men of the Old Stone Age by Henry Fairfield Osborn (1916)
The Passing of the Great Race by Madison Grant (1916)
The Peoples of Europe by Herbert John Fleure (1922)
The Racial History of Man by Roland Burrage Dixon (1923)
Racial Realities in Europe by Lothrop Stoddard (1924)
The Racial Elements in European History by Hans Friedrich Karl Günther (1927)
The Makers of Civilization in Race and History by Laurence Waddell (1929)
Races of Africa by Charles Gabriel Seligman (1930)
Human History by Grafton Elliot Smith (1930)
The Races of Man by Robert Bennett Bean (1932, 2nd Ed. 1935)
The Races of Europe by Carleton Stevens Coon (1939)
Up from the Ape by Earnest Albert Hooton (1946)
Human Genetics by Renigald Ruggles Gates (1946)
Races of Man by Maurice Seal White (1947)
Human Ancestry from a Genetical Point of View by Renigald Ruggles Gates (1948)
Environment, Race and Migration by Thomas Griffith Taylor (1949)
Genetics and the Races of Man by William Clouser Boyd (1950, 2nd Ed. 1958)
Races and People by William Clouser Body (1958)
Races of Mankind, their origin and migration by Calvin Ira Kephart (1960)
The Origin of Races by Carleton Stevens Coon (1962, 2nd Ed. 1963)
Races of Man by Sonia Mary Cole (1965)
Living Races of Man by Carleton Stevens Coon (1965)
Race and Civilization by Roger Pearson (1966)
Races and Race by Richard Allen Goldsby (1971, 2nd Ed. 1977)
Race by John Baker (1974)
Introduction to Anthropology by Roger Pearson (1974)
The Races and Peoples of Europe by Bertil Lundman (1977)
Racial Adaptations by Carleton Stevens Coon (1982)
Anthropological Glossary by Roger Pearson (1985)
Heredity and Humanity: Race, Eugenics and Modern Science by Roger Pearson (1996, 2nd Ed. 1998)

Forensic Works which prove race exists -

Alice M. Brues, People and Races (1990); Schultz AH, Relation of the external nose to the bony nose and nasal cartilages in whites and negroes. Am J Phys Anthropol. 1913;1:329; Gill, George W. 1986, Craniofacial Criteria in Forensic Identification, Forensic Osteology. Reichs, KI(ed.), pp. 143-159; 2nd Edition, 1998, Reichs, Kathleen 1 (ed.), pp. 293-315; Gill George W., 1990, ''Skeletal Attribution of Race: Methods for Forensic Anthropology'', Maxwell Museum of Anthropology, Anthropological Papers, No. 4; Wilton Marion Krogman, The Human Skeleton in Forensic Medicine (1986); Carlonine Wilkinson, Forensic Facial Reconstruction (Cambridge University Press, 2004).


Race and Races: a Black Biologist Writes About Actual Racial Differences and Their Significance


It is not common that you hear of a Black biologist on the subject of race who is not influenced by political correctness or a multiracial agenda. However in 1971 (2nd Ed. 1977) the Black biologist Richard Allen Goldsby put out an excellent work on the reality of race entitled: Race and Races: a Black Biologist Writes About Actual Racial Differences and Their Significance.

Goldsby's work shows that race is a reality and maintains that races are different not only phenotypically and genetically but also in behavioural and mental aspects. You can puchase this excellent work from Amazon.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Race-Races-Biologist-Differences-Significance/dp/B000XEIGFE
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
"race classification of all individuals in this sample using the Forensic Data Bank option. Of the 95 individuals, 42 (44 percent) were classified as white, 35 percent as black, 9 percent as Hispanic, 4 percent as Japanese, 4 percent as American Indian, and the remaining three individuals as Chinese and Vietnamese" - Ubelaker et al., Application of Forensic Discriminant Functions to a Spanish Cranial Sample, 2002.

[Smile]

Going by cassiterides stuck-on 19th century pseudo science constructs, then the "Cro-Magnons" of European fulfill the "Negroid" banner.
 
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
^^lol
templeton - races debunked

1-
 -


2
 -
 
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cassiterides:
quote:
Originally posted by osirion:
There are tribes in Africa that contain all of the racial forms you have illustrated because of climatic and dietary variations.

Since we know that these facial forms are due to climate and diet then features that are Caucasoid can change to Negroid simply due to migration and in situ evolution consequently these facial forms do not imply relatedness. The only relatedness implied by facial form is climate and diet adaptation.

Go back to cuckooland. Negroid tribes do not have Caucasoid features. You have an obsession to attatch yourself to white features when you are black. You repeatedly expose your self-hate. If you think Negroids have Caucasoid features such as blonde or red straight-wavy hair and thin noses then show the scientific evidence. Where are these supposed negroes with thin noses and straight hair?

Above are all scientific sources. Go through them and actually learn something. Stop denying science for your own biased agenda. And for the last time - stop the self hate, just admit what your race looks like. Next you will probably be claiming negroes have pale white skin, [Roll Eyes]

Besides the ad hominem attack, let's be sure we are talking about the same thing.

The definition of Caucasoid you have given in this thread is simply this:


a) narrow nasal aperture and tear shaped nasal cavity (Coon, 1939, 1962; 1982, Pearson, 1974; Krogman, 1986; Gill, 1986; 1990, 1998, Brues, 1990; Wilkinson, 2004).

(b) orthognathic (straight) jaw with minimal or absent prognathism (Coon, 1962; ; Krogman; 1986; Gill, 1986; Bass, 1995, Wilkinson, 2004).

(c) round sagittal contour (Pearson, 1985; Gill, 1986; Wilkinson, 2004).

(d) retreating zygomatic arch (Gill, 1986; Ubelaker, 1989; Clament & Ramson 1998)

(e) nasal sill (Gill, 1986, 1990; Bass, 1995).

(f) prominent chin (Gill, 1990; Wilkinson, 2004).

(g) microdont (small) teeth (Coon, 1962; Krogman, 1986).


- question, can any of these be missing and one still be considered Caucasoid. What about intermediate findings such as receding chins etc?

If one doesn't have a prominent chin is that person truly Caucasoid?
 
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by osirion:
There are tribes in Africa that contain all of the racial forms you have illustrated because of climatic and dietary variations.

Africans with Caucasoid physical tendencies have ancient admixture from the Middle East. They are not true Africans.
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
Perahu,

So, the hg J2 carrying Lemba have "Caucasoid physical tendencies"?

What about the "Middle Easterners" who give these Africans their "caucasoid physical tendencies"? They have plenty of admixture from Africa. They are not true "Middle Easterners". They ought to look like the "admixed" Africans, should they not?

What about Southern Europeans: They ought to look like 'admixed" Africans, since they are not true Europeans. They have admixture from Africa.

Mind briefing me on what caucasoid physical tendencies you have in mind.
 
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
 
How reliable are craniofacial features in race for identification?

There is a 95% accuracy of race determination from a skull, however these traits are not clear until puberty.

Source: Clement JG, Ranson DL (eds), Craniofacial Identification in Forensic Medicine. London: Arnold, 1998.

Caucasoid Cranialfacial features have been posted above. A skull fitting those traits has the probability of being 95% Caucasoid (which is a high number, which is why forensic physical anthropology is a legitimate science).

If race didn't exist then forensic scientists would be out of jobs. That's how crazy race denialism is.
 
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Rice?? did someone said rice?? I am sick of rice!! although I heard brown rice is actually good for you same with brown bread rather than white bread...
 -
Cassis do you like Ham??
 
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
 
the most recent study this "cassiterides" has is from the late 1800s. lol
 
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
 
Clear retard 1 above. Many of my sources are from the late 1990's. They are not outdated. My most recent is 2004.

Alice M. Brues, People and Races (1990); Schultz AH, Relation of the external nose to the bony nose and nasal cartilages in whites and negroes. Am J Phys Anthropol. 1913;1:329; Gill, George W. 1986, Craniofacial Criteria in Forensic Identification, Forensic Osteology. Reichs, KI(ed.), pp. 143-159; 2nd Edition, 1998, Reichs, Kathleen 1 (ed.), pp. 293-315; Gill George W., 1990, ''Skeletal Attribution of Race: Methods for Forensic Anthropology'', Maxwell Museum of Anthropology, Anthropological Papers, No. 4; Wilton Marion Krogman, The Human Skeleton in Forensic Medicine (1986); Carlonine Wilkinson, Forensic Facial Reconstruction (Cambridge University Press, 2004).

Forensic Science. United States of
America: CRC Press, Inc.

EI-Najjar, Mahmoud Y. and K Richard
McWilliams 1978. Forensic
Anthropology: The Structure,
Morphology and Variation of
Human Bone and Dentition. Illinois:
Charles C. Thomas.

Gill, George W. 1998. "Craniofacial
Criteria in the Skeletal Attribution
of Race. " In Forensic Osteology:
Advances in the Identification of
Human Remains. (2nd edition)
Reichs, Kathleen l(ed.), pp.293-
315.

Gill, George W. 1986. "Craniofacial
Criteria in Forensic Identification."
In Forensic Osteology: Advances in
the identification of Human
Remains. Reichs, KI(ed.). pp. 143-
159. Springfield: Charles C.

Krogman, Wilton Marion and Mehmet
Yascar Iscan 1986. The Human
Skeleton in Forensic Medicine.
Springfield: Charles C.Thomas.

Lahr, Marta Mirazon 1996. The
Evolution of Modern Human
Diversity: A Study of Cranial
Variation. Britain: University Press,
Cambridge. Thomas.

Post, Richard H. 1969. Tear Duet Size
Differences of Age, Sex and Race.
American Journal of Physical
Anthropology. 30:85-88.

Ubelaker, Douglas H. 1989. Human
Skeletal Remains: Excavation,
Analysis and Interpretation.
Washington: Taraxacum.
 
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Perahu,

So, the hg J2 carrying Lemba have "Caucasoid physical tendencies"?

Show me analyses done on their autosomal DNA. I am pretty sure they are over 85% Negrid, consistent with their phenotype.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
What about the "Middle Easterners" who give these Africans their "caucasoid physical tendencies"? They have plenty of admixture from Africa. They are not true "Middle Easterners". They ought to look like the "admixed" Africans, should they not?

What about Southern Europeans: They ought to look like 'admixed" Africans, since they are not true Europeans. They have admixture from Africa.

http://genetics.med.harvard.edu/reich/Reich_Lab/Welcome_files/2011Moorjani_PLOS.pdf

Negrid admixture is rather low in those groups. They are overwhelmingly Caucasoid (85-98%).

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Mind briefing me on what caucasoid physical tendencies you have in mind.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a389/blackgoatcabal/1-6.jpg
 
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
There is a 95% accuracy of race determination from a skull, however these traits are not clear until puberty.

^^OK, let's go with this for now. Since 95% "proves" race, then
it is clear that the ancient Egyptians, until the
late era of Assyrians, Greeks, Arabs etc,
cluster more with tropical Africans than Europeans or
Middle Easterners via craniofacial studies. You just debunked
yourself, once again.


 -

 -
 
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
 
^^ Here is a another chart but i can't upload it to photobucket because its too big:

http://www.redwoods.edu/instruct/agarwin/anth_6_ancestry.htm

TABLE 1: Cranial Ancestral Traits: A Summary of the Current Research Methodology

Source: Gill, George W. and Rhine, Stanley, eds.
1990 Skeletal Attribution of Race: Methods for Forensic Anthropology. Maxwell Museum of Anthropology, Anthropological Papers No. 4 (Albuquerque, NM).
 
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:

^^OK, let's go with this for now. Since 95% "proves" race, then
it is clear that the ancient Egyptians, until the
late era of Assyrians, Greeks, Arabs etc,
cluster more with tropical Africans than Europeans or
Middle Easterners via craniofacial studies. You just debunked
yourself, once again.

Ancient Egyptian skulls NEVER cluster closely to racially pure Africans.

Ethiopians and the like with heavy Caucasoid ancestry do not count.
 
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cassiterides:
^^ Here is a another chart but i can't upload it to photobucket because its too big:

http://www.redwoods.edu/instruct/agarwin/anth_6_ancestry.htm

TABLE 1: Cranial Ancestral Traits: A Summary of the Current Research Methodology

Source: Gill, George W. and Rhine, Stanley, eds.
1990 Skeletal Attribution of Race: Methods for Forensic Anthropology. Maxwell Museum of Anthropology, Anthropological Papers No. 4 (Albuquerque, NM).

Thanks.
 
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cassiterides:
How reliable are craniofacial features in race for identification?

There is a 95% accuracy of race determination from a skull, however these traits are not clear until puberty.

Source: Clement JG, Ranson DL (eds), Craniofacial Identification in Forensic Medicine. London: Arnold, 1998.

Caucasoid Cranialfacial features have been posted above. A skull fitting those traits has the probability of being 95% Caucasoid (which is a high number, which is why forensic physical anthropology is a legitimate science).

If race didn't exist then forensic scientists would be out of jobs. That's how crazy race denialism is.

Tutsi?

A single tribe that has Caucasoid facial features among its population as well as Negroid.


SAN?

Negroid and Mongoloid facial features in its population.
 
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
the most recent study this "cassiterides" has is from the late 1800s. lol

^^You caught him on this. In another thread he
was said that "Cavalli-Sforza1986" suggests or said that
"true" Black africans were "absent" from the
continent's "central, eastern, and southern
regions"..

Originally posted by Casterides:
quote:

''True Black Africans appear as a recent adaptive radiation apparently branching off from an ancestral Pygmy population — a line of ancestry also indicated by osteological data (Coon 1962:651-656; Watson et al. 1996). This radiation seems to have occurred somewhere in West Africa. Before the Bantu expansion about 3,000 years ago, true Black Africans were absent from the continent's central, eastern, and southern regions (Cavalli-Sforza 1986:361-362; Oliver 1966). They were also absent from the middle Nile until about 4,000 years ago, at which time they begin to appear in paintings from Pharaonic Egypt and in skeletal remains from Nubia (Junker 1921).''

He ran away in the other thread when asked for proof
but you are now still holding his feet to the fire.
What's taking him so long in providing *his own*
reference to back up his claim, re these mysteriously
"missing" Africans?
 
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by osirion:
Tutsi?

A single tribe that has Caucasoid facial features among its population as well as Negroid.

Some Tutsi have strong Hamitic Caucasoid admixture, especially among their elites.

The aboriginals of Rwanda, the Twa, have extreme Paleo-Negrid features. Clearly Caucasoid features are not native to those environs.
 
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
 
Cranial Analysis of Nubians reveals Caucasoid admixture.

Source(s):

G. Elliot-Smith and F. Wood Jones 'Report of the Human Remains', The Archaeological Survey of Nubia, Report for 1907-1908, II (1910), Cairo.

A. M. Batrawi, 'The Racial History of Egypt and Nubia. Part I. The craniology of Lower Nubia from Predynastic Times to the sixth century AD.' J. R. Anthrop. Inst. LxxV, 1945, pp.81-101.

E. Stroughal, 'Anthropologicka problematika nubijiske skupiny X', Comenius University, Bratislava, 1966.

The indigenous inhabitants of Nubia were Capoids (Bushmen) who were then pushed south by the Caucasoids from the Mediterranean around 14,000 - 12,000 years ago.

Source:

D. R. Burnor and J.E Harris, 'Racial continuity in Lower Nubia: 12,000 BC. to the present', Proc. Indiana Acad. Sci. for 1967, lxxvii (1968) pp. 113-121.

Negroids arrived in Nubia about 7,000 years after the Caucasoids had displaced the Capoids. Negroes then appeared in Egypt around 2,000 BC as slaves or as the Nubia population (which by then had Negroid admixture).
 
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
What's taking him so long in providing *his own*
reference to back up his claim, re these mysteriously
"missing" Africans? [/QB]

The source is Cavalli-Sforza's book on the Pygmies entitled 'African pygmies' (Academic Press, 1986).

This work shows that Negroids mutated from an ancestral pygmy population around 9,000 BC in West Africa. So the 'true' Black African today is a recent mutation. Caucasoids and Mongoloids predate them. [Wink] Negroids only migrated into other parts of Africa during the Bantu expansion or slightly earlier. Prior to them, Caucasoids inhabited North Africa and Bushmen (Capoids) to the south who were displaced by the Caucasoids from the Mediterranean around 12,000 BC.
 
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
 
40-50% of Nubian mtDNA is M/N

And their yDNA is loaded with J/R/E1b1b/I

Clearly a heavily admixed population.

Not racially pure at all
 
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
The source is Cavalli-Sforza's book on the Pygmies entitled 'African pygmies' (Academic Press, 1986).

This work shows that Negroids mutated from an ancestral pygmy population around 9,000 BC in West Africa.


^^A bogus reference.
Why should anyone take your word for it given
past bogus references? Quote where Cavalli-Sforza
says these so-called "negroids" "mutated" from
Pygmies. The burden of proof is on you, since you made
the claim.

While you scurry to cover your tracks with yet
more bogus claims, Cavali Sforza, in his well
known The History and Geography of Human Genes,
1994 Cavalli-Sforza summarizes his 1986 work on
Pygmies and specifically debunks the "Pygmy as ancestor"
theory held by other older writings. QUOTE:


"It remains difficult to pinpoint an ancient place
of origin for the Negroid type which includes all
West, Central and South Africans. Contrary to many
earlier opinions, modern Pygmies and Khosians are
not good candidates for a proto-African population."


--Cavalli Sforza et al, 1994. The history and geography of human genes. 194


SO much for your lying claims of "mutations" from "Pygymy" ancestors.
In short, you lied about Cavalli-Sforza, creating a falsified
claim and a bogus "supporting" reference to a claim that is
nowhere supported in his work. You are once again
exposed as yet another racist, who relies on bogus
"evidence" to advance, dubious and debunked claims.
You are not fooling anyone.


 -
 
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cassiterides:
Cranial Analysis of Nubians reveals Caucasoid admixture.

Source(s):

G. Elliot-Smith and F. Wood Jones 'Report of the Human Remains', The Archaeological Survey of Nubia, Report for 1907-1908, II (1910), Cairo.

A. M. Batrawi, 'The Racial History of Egypt and Nubia. Part I. The craniology of Lower Nubia from Predynastic Times to the sixth century AD.' J. R. Anthrop. Inst. LxxV, 1945, pp.81-101.

E. Stroughal, 'Anthropologicka problematika nubijiske skupiny X', Comenius University, Bratislava, 1966.

The indigenous inhabitants of Nubia were Capoids (Bushmen) who were then pushed south by the Caucasoids from the Mediterranean around 14,000 - 12,000 years ago.

Source:

D. R. Burnor and J.E Harris, 'Racial continuity in Lower Nubia: 12,000 BC. to the present', Proc. Indiana Acad. Sci. for 1967, lxxvii (1968) pp. 113-121.

Negroids arrived in Nubia about 7,000 years after the Caucasoids had displaced the Capoids. Negroes then appeared in Egypt around 2,000 BC as slaves or as the Nubia population (which by then had Negroid admixture).

You are displaying your ignorance of the history of the Nubian people. If you knew the population changes in the last 800 years especially after conquest by Saladin, you would know the history of rape and genocide that has occurred in Sudan that has displaced many of original people and introduced a skewed haplogoup frequency.

As for the Tutsi, there is no genetic evidence of East African admixture.

If you want me to cite reports I will but I think you just need to do your homework a bit here.
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Perahu:

Show me analyses done on their autosomal DNA.

So you are new at this; you didn't know that hg J2 parents would have had to have contributed half of the offspring's 44 chromosomes?

The fact that J2 is there, should have rendered these groups "caucasoid" and "not true Africans", given your philosophy.

quote:
I am pretty sure they are over 85% Negrid, consistent with their phenotype.
Prove it...and I don't mean lazily posted links, left for me to sort out.

How is it that "ancient admixture from the Middle East" renders Africans "caucasoid tendencies", your words, but not in this (Lemba) case?

quote:
Negrid admixture is rather low in those groups. They are overwhelmingly Caucasoid (85-98%).
It has been found in Greek sample, for example, as high as ~ 21%, and about the same for Sicilians, Romanians -- about 22%, and going even as high as 32% in Albanians. Using your philosophy, Greeks should look like the "admixed Africans", shouldn't they?

I'm guessing you have not acquainted yourself with Luis et al. (2004), for example, to get some figures of African ancestry in Arabia?

Your so-called "ancient admixture from the Middle East" is also low, lest you are prepared to show otherwise.

quote:


quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Mind briefing me on what caucasoid physical tendencies you have in mind.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a389/blackgoatcabal/1-6.jpg
I meant, in words, i.e. your words.
 
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cassiterides:
Cranial Analysis of Nubians reveals Caucasoid admixture.

Source(s):

G. Elliot-Smith and F. Wood Jones 'Report of the Human Remains', The Archaeological Survey of Nubia, Report for 1907-1908, II (1910), Cairo.

A. M. Batrawi, 'The Racial History of Egypt and Nubia. Part I. The craniology of Lower Nubia from Predynastic Times to the sixth century AD.' J. R. Anthrop. Inst. LxxV, 1945, pp.81-101.

E. Stroughal, 'Anthropologicka problematika nubijiske skupiny X', Comenius University, Bratislava, 1966.

The indigenous inhabitants of Nubia were Capoids (Bushmen) who were then pushed south by the Caucasoids from the Mediterranean around 14,000 - 12,000 years ago.

Source:

D. R. Burnor and J.E Harris, 'Racial continuity in Lower Nubia: 12,000 BC. to the present', Proc. Indiana Acad. Sci. for 1967, lxxvii (1968) pp. 113-121.

Negroids arrived in Nubia about 7,000 years after the Caucasoids had displaced the Capoids. Negroes then appeared in Egypt around 2,000 BC as slaves or as the Nubia population (which by then had Negroid admixture).

This is obviously a strawman because I was referring to the Tutsi. They have Caucasoid and Negroid facial features in their population and there is no evidence that they are horn Africans.

Genetically they appear the same as the Hutu who are Negroid according to your classification.

You also failed to answer my question about Caucasoid facial features. If you a missing any of them are you less Caucasoid? Example, if you have a receding chin and prognathism.

Where does Caucasoid end and Negroid begin?
 
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
So you are new at this; you didn't know that hg J2 parents would have had to have contributed half of the offspring's 44 chromosomes?

The fact that J2 is there, should have rendered these groups "caucasoid" and "not true Africans", given your philosophy.
Prove it...and I don't mean lazily posted links, left for me to sort out.

How is it that "ancient admixture from the Middle East" renders Africans "caucasoid tendencies", your words, but not in this (Lemba) case?

Lemba mtDNA is highly Bantuid.

''These studies revealed that mtDNA types found in the Lemba are indistinguishable from the Venda and other south-eastern Bantu- speakers.''

Refiguring the archive - C. Hamilton.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
It has been found in Greek sample, for example, as high as ~ 21%, and about the same for Sicilians, Romanians -- about 22%, and going even as high as 32% in Albanians. Using your philosophy, Greeks should look like the "admixed Africans", shouldn't they?

I'm guessing you have not acquainted yourself with Luis et al. (2004), for example, to get some figures of African ancestry in Arabia?

Your so-called "ancient admixture from the Middle East" is also low, lest you are prepared to show otherwise.

E1b1b1a is a Hamitic/Eurafrican marker. The basal branches of E1b1b1a-V68 (without the M78 mutation) have only been found in Southern Europe, suggesting Mediterranean origins for this clade. E1b1b1a in Europe is mostly E1b1b1a-V13, which is pretty much absent in Africa.
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Perahu:

Lemba mtDNA is highly Bantuid.

''These studies revealed that mtDNA types found in the Lemba are indistinguishable from the Venda and other south-eastern Bantu- speakers.''

Refiguring the archive - C. Hamilton.

Aren't you something? You qualified "caucasoid tendencies" in Africans with "ancient admixture from the Middle East", and now you are throwing it under the bus, when a population fitting the bill, but which you think doesn't jive with your "cacasid theory", is presented to you.

Your one line extract doesn't say much either. A similar assessment can be made of any of your nameless fake Africans with "caucasoid tendencies".

Also on notice, is your pretty sure comment about the "over 85% Negrid" gene pool of the Lemba, which you were supposed to back up via autosomal data; instead, you thought a one liner on mtDNA would make up for absence of that data.

quote:

E1b1b1a is a Hamitic/Eurafrican marker. The basal branches of E1b1b1a-V68 (without the M78 mutation) have only been found in Southern Europe, suggesting Mediterranean origins for this clade. E1b1b1a in Europe is mostly E1b1b1a-V13, which is pretty much absent in Africa.

Stop kidding yourself with make feel-good labels. You know very well that E1b1b1a is a "Negrid" marker.

Given your philosophy, the presence of this marker should render these untrue or borderline Europeans the same physiological tendencies as the "admixed Africans".

Somebody fooled you, when they said V13 marker was absent in Africa. But to get at your intended point, which is to say that the Europeans carry a distinct sub-clade of E1b1b1a not widely distributed in Africa, one can pretty much apply the same rational towards your "fake" Africans with "cacasid tendencies". The markers they carry are distinguishable from the "Middle Easterners".

Still on notice: Absence of your description of "caucasoid tendencies" in your own words.
 
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
Stop kidding yourself with make feel-good labels. You know very well that E1b1b1a is a "Negrid" marker.

Osiron trolls as Cassiretedes. He has a hard time keeping his labels straight.
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cassiterides:
Cranial Analysis of Nubians reveals Caucasoid admixture.

Source(s):

G. Elliot-Smith and F. Wood Jones 'Report of the Human Remains', The Archaeological Survey of Nubia, Report for 1907-1908, II (1910), Cairo.

A. M. Batrawi, 'The Racial History of Egypt and Nubia. Part I. The craniology of Lower Nubia from Predynastic Times to the sixth century AD.' J. R. Anthrop. Inst. LxxV, 1945, pp.81-101.

E. Stroughal, 'Anthropologicka problematika nubijiske skupiny X', Comenius University, Bratislava, 1966.

The indigenous inhabitants of Nubia were Capoids (Bushmen) who were then pushed south by the Caucasoids from the Mediterranean around 14,000 - 12,000 years ago.

Source:

D. R. Burnor and J.E Harris, 'Racial continuity in Lower Nubia: 12,000 BC. to the present', Proc. Indiana Acad. Sci. for 1967, lxxvii (1968) pp. 113-121.

Negroids arrived in Nubia about 7,000 years after the Caucasoids had displaced the Capoids. Negroes then appeared in Egypt around 2,000 BC as slaves or as the Nubia population (which by then had Negroid admixture).

lol, you are loco in the head!


Wadi Kubbaniya (ca. 17,000–15,000 B.C.)

In Egypt, the earliest evidence of humans can be recognized only from tools found scattered over an ancient surface, sometimes with hearths nearby. In Wadi Kubbaniya, a dried-up streambed cutting through the Western Desert to the floodplain northwest of Aswan in Upper Egypt, some interesting sites of the kind described above have been recorded. A cluster of Late Paleolithic camps was located in two different topographic zones: on the tops of dunes and the floor of the wadi (streambed) where it enters the valley. Although no signs of houses were found, diverse and sophisticated stone implements for hunting, fishing, and collecting and processing plants were discovered around hearths. Most tools were bladelets made from a local stone called chert that is widely used in tool fabrication. The bones of wild cattle, hartebeest, many types of fish and birds, as well as the occasional hippopotamus have been identified in the occupation layers. Charred remains of plants that the inhabitants consumed, especially tubers, have also been found.

It appears from the zoological and botanical remains at the various sites in this wadi that the two environmental zones were exploited at different times. We know that the dune sites were occupied when the Nile River flooded the wadi because large numbers of fish and migratory bird bones were found at this location. When the water receded, people then moved down onto the silt left behind on the wadi floor and the floodplain, probably following large animals that looked for water there in the dry season. Paleolithic peoples lived at Wadi Kubbaniya for about 2,000 years, exploiting the different environments as the seasons changed. Other ancient camps have been discovered along the Nile from Sudan to the Mediterranean, yielding similar tools and food remains. These sites demonstrate that the early inhabitants of the Nile valley and its nearby deserts had learned how to exploit local environments, developing economic strategies that were maintained in later cultural traditions of pharaonic Egypt.
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Perahu:
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
So you are new at this; you didn't know that hg J2 parents would have had to have contributed half of the offspring's 44 chromosomes?

The fact that J2 is there, should have rendered these groups "caucasoid" and "not true Africans", given your philosophy.
Prove it...and I don't mean lazily posted links, left for me to sort out.

How is it that "ancient admixture from the Middle East" renders Africans "caucasoid tendencies", your words, but not in this (Lemba) case?

Lemba mtDNA is highly Bantuid.

''These studies revealed that mtDNA types found in the Lemba are indistinguishable from the Venda and other south-eastern Bantu- speakers.''

Refiguring the archive - C. Hamilton.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
It has been found in Greek sample, for example, as high as ~ 21%, and about the same for Sicilians, Romanians -- about 22%, and going even as high as 32% in Albanians. Using your philosophy, Greeks should look like the "admixed Africans", shouldn't they?

I'm guessing you have not acquainted yourself with Luis et al. (2004), for example, to get some figures of African ancestry in Arabia?

Your so-called "ancient admixture from the Middle East" is also low, lest you are prepared to show otherwise.

E1b1b1a is a Hamitic/Eurafrican marker. The basal branches of E1b1b1a-V68 (without the M78 mutation) have only been found in Southern Europe, suggesting Mediterranean origins for this clade. E1b1b1a in Europe is mostly E1b1b1a-V13, which is pretty much absent in Africa.

How did this V13 mutation occur?

And what is a Eurafrican marker? lol


 -


The Masalit posses by far the highest frequency of E-M78.
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Perahu:
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Perahu,

So, the hg J2 carrying Lemba have "Caucasoid physical tendencies"?

Show me analyses done on their autosomal DNA. I am pretty sure they are over 85% Negrid, consistent with their phenotype.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
What about the "Middle Easterners" who give these Africans their "caucasoid physical tendencies"? They have plenty of admixture from Africa. They are not true "Middle Easterners". They ought to look like the "admixed" Africans, should they not?

What about Southern Europeans: They ought to look like 'admixed" Africans, since they are not true Europeans. They have admixture from Africa.

http://genetics.med.harvard.edu/reich/Reich_Lab/Welcome_files/2011Moorjani_PLOS.pdf

Negrid admixture is rather low in those groups. They are overwhelmingly Caucasoid (85-98%).

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Mind briefing me on what caucasoid physical tendencies you have in mind.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a389/blackgoatcabal/1-6.jpg

It appears: that the highest frequency of the basal paternal haplogroup J* is found in the Socotra."


 -


 -


 -
 
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Also on notice, is your pretty sure comment about the "over 85% Negrid" gene pool of the Lemba, which you were supposed to back up via autosomal data; instead, you thought a one liner on mtDNA would make up for absence of that data.

I couldn't care less about the Lemba. They are obviously predominantly Negrid, autosomal analyses on them will soon confirm it.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Given your philosophy, the presence of this marker should render these untrue or borderline Europeans the same physiological tendencies as the "admixed Africans".

Somebody fooled you, when they said V13 marker was absent in Africa. But to get at your intended point, which is to say that the Europeans carry a distinct sub-clade of E1b1b1a not widely distributed in Africa, one can pretty much apply the same rational towards your "fake" Africans with "cacasid tendencies". The markers they carry are distinguishable from the "Middle Easterners".

Still on notice: Absence of your description of "caucasoid tendencies" in your own words.

- The basal form of E1b1b1a*-V68* has only been found in Southern Europe.
- Cruciani et al. proposed a northern Northeast Africa origin for M78*, the region of Egypt and Libya.
- E1b1b1a in the Balkans is invariably E1b1b1a-V13. There is very little E-V13 in North Africa and where it is, it seems likely to be Jewish or Greek.
- The Autosomal DNA of people in the Balkans is firmly European & West Asian.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F9XoyN2wE-w/ToZBZZT7jdI/AAAAAAAAAmI/qwmGu64Xvwk/s1600/admixture.png

Iberia is where the true African autosomal mixture in Europe is at (albeit very low!). Not the Balkans.
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Perahu:
40-50% of Nubian mtDNA is M/N

And their yDNA is loaded with J/R/E1b1b/I

Clearly a heavily admixed population.

Not racially pure at all

1) I have my doubts in this claim.

2) I do know that in some regions there is admixture, like in parts of Luxor. But over all not. Especially further down South it's not. Nubians in fact are a bit exhenophoic.


I also remember a time when Eurocentrist called Nubians n*gg*rs. And unrelated to ancient Egypt.

Then came this Nubian claim, when it appeared that people from the South like nubians are at the foundation of ancient Egypt.


How typically and ironic.

Question is: why are the still the same in warm adapted body portions and a continues people. Why are Nubians not hairy on the body like Eurasians? If there was truthfully this amount of overall foreign genetic input. Etc...
 
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
It appears: that the highest frequency of the basal paternal haplogroup J* is found in the Socotra."

http://socotra.info/assets/galleries/636/mel_130.jpg

http://www.realclearworld.com/blog/yemen.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/i3gjzr.jpg

Idiot, there many African minority groups in Arab countries. That first man is obviously not a native of Socotra, he looks to be from Southeast Africa. Probably a lower class slave descendant.

This is how the aboriginals of Socotra look like. Quite East Indian looking.

Socotri
 -
 -
 -
 -
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Perahu:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
It appears: that the highest frequency of the basal paternal haplogroup J* is found in the Socotra."

http://socotra.info/assets/galleries/636/mel_130.jpg

http://www.realclearworld.com/blog/yemen.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/i3gjzr.jpg

Idiot, there many African minority groups in Arab countries. That first man is obviously not a native of Socotra, he looks to be from Southeast Africa. Probably a lower class slave descendant.

This is how the aboriginals of Socotra look like. Quite East Indian looking.

Socotri

lol, I did not know it would pain you this much, to see such image. And I truly don't know about your assessment. The man with the so called South African features was on that site.

Anyway, the reason why I posted those pictures was because the Lemba have stated, out of their own mouth, that they came from Yemen. And are from the tribe of Benjamin, this is what I've heard coming from their own mouth. Their story attests all of this.

This is what they look like.

 -


They also carry the particular Cohanim-gene in highest frequency.


 -


quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche, posted 13 October, 2011 01:59 PM :

The people shown here are the result of a mixture of the Afro-Arabian Kamar branch of the Mahra Arabians original "Ethiopic" occupants of these islands and the people who named the Komoros or Comoros Islands. These dark brown fuzzy headed Ethiopic people or original Sabaic-Himyarites, mixed with people from India and Africa and later fair-skinned peoples who had come into Arabia especially in the last millenium.

The name Socotra comes from the Bani Sakun and Saksak tribes (or Kindite Arabians), known also anciently to the Greeks as the Ascitae or Skenitas Arabus. These Shahra-Mahra related and other Ethiopians are no longer there in any purity as they are in Hadramaut, Somalia and Oman.

There are no pure type in Socotra any more, they are a mixture of many populations as is modern Arabia and North Africa in general making dna analysis of modern populations rather pointless or irrelevant.

 -
Mahra in Arabia

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti, posted 13 October, 2011 11:55 PM :


This topic was discussed several times before by one poster in here (I forgot who) as well as the moderator Henu (Yom) who is Ethiopian. Again, that J1 originated either in or close to Africa is no surprise. Euronuts like Malcontent love to define the Arabian-Palestine region as 'Eurasian' even though it is right next to Africa and its geology is continuous to Africa as well as contiguous with it. Keita himself stated that it is a Eurocentric ploy to label such lineages and the populations they entail as automatically 'Eurasian' when they derive so close to Africa.

Yemenis

 -

 -

 -

 -

As for the island of Socotra, while its indigenous population was described as 'Hamitic', it was settled by Indians and others during Medieval Islamic times. This explains why some Socotrans look Indian as per Lyinass's picture. Even the very name 'Socotra' is an Indian word for 'paradise'.

*Note dead Israelites at left. From Bas Relief at Nineveh.


http://www.lessing-photo.com/p3/080203/08020360.jpg


http://www.lessing-photo.com/p3/030302/03030207.jpg
 
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
 
Certain Yemenis have *RECENT* slave ancestry from *SOUTH*-East Africa. Not even the Horn, but from the far South (i.e. Tanzania/Mozambique).

This has been confirmed by mtDNA analyses: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182106/

Those foreign looking Yemenis with profound Negrid phenotypes you like to spam are *NOT* true Natives.

Indigenous Yemenis have markedly Caucasoid physical features.
 -
 -
 -
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Perahu:

I couldn't care less about the Lemba. They are obviously predominantly Negrid, autosomal analyses on them will soon confirm it.

I understand. It's natural for you to care less about matter that falsifies your ideology.

You were already falsified on your "ancient admixture from Middle Eastern" as a justification for promoting your "caucasoid tendencies" in Africans; that's no longer an issue. So, the request for atDNA was just gravy. [Smile]

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:

Given your philosophy, the presence of this marker should render these untrue or borderline Europeans the same physiological tendencies as the "admixed Africans".

Somebody fooled you, when they said V13 marker was absent in Africa. But to get at your intended point, which is to say that the Europeans carry a distinct sub-clade of E1b1b1a not widely distributed in Africa, one can pretty much apply the same rational towards your "fake" Africans with "cacasid tendencies". The markers they carry are distinguishable from the "Middle Easterners".

Still on notice: Absence of your description of "caucasoid tendencies" in your own words.

- The basal form of E1b1b1a*-V68* has only been found in Southern Europe.
- Cruciani et al. proposed a northern Northeast Africa origin for M78*, the region of Egypt and Libya.
- E1b1b1a in the Balkans is invariably E1b1b1a-V13. There is very little E-V13 in North Africa and where it is, it seems likely to be Jewish or Greek.
- The Autosomal DNA of people in the Balkans is firmly European & West Asian.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F9XoyN2wE-w/ToZBZZT7jdI/AAAAAAAAAmI/qwmGu64Xvwk/s1600/admixture.png

Iberia is where the true African autosomal mixture in Europe is at (albeit very low!). Not the Balkans.

This is a diversion. As noted, your rational of a distinct European sub-clade of M78, as a justification for nullifying your own underlying premise of "admixed Africans with caucasoid tendencies", can just as well be applied to those "admixed Africans" of your's.

It can be said that those Africans carry clades distinct from the "Middle Eastern" examples, and even have basal clades for them.

And still no word on "caucasoid tendencies" in your own words. What; you don't know what your own words mean?

Ps-I'll deal with your diversion separately, notwithstanding.
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Perahu:
Certain Yemenis have *RECENT* slave ancestry from *SOUTH*-East Africa. Not even the Horn, but from the far South (i.e. Tanzania/Mozambique).

This has been confirmed by mtDNA analyses: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182106/

Those foreign looking Yemenis with profound Negrid phenotypes you like to spam are *NOT* true Natives.

Indigenous Yemenis have markedly Caucasoid physical features.
 -
 -
 -

Yes, you're right. Certain have slave ancestry, but not all. There is an ancient in put in Yemen, from Africa which has nothing to do with slavery or being enslaved. There are classic texts confirming and attesting this.


As you probebly already know, there is Northern Arabic and Southern Arabic. We also know that Arabic actually split from Afroasian as the original proto-Arabic speakers from Africa moved into the Levant. Further into Southwest Asia. Where it evolved into a Semitic branch.


And, we know that Northern Arabic speakers came from the region of the Crescent, and aren't native to Yemen, but are recent immigrants.

I have always wondered why Rasulullah fled to Abyssinia, to seek refuge?


Speaking of aboriginals, the pre-Islamic time?

Khaled K Abu-Amero et al.

Mitochondrial DNA structure in the Arabian Peninsula


Two potential migratory routes followed by modern humans to colonize Eurasia from Africa have been proposed. These are the two natural passageways that connect both continents: the northern route through the Sinai Peninsula and the southern route across the Bab al Mandab strait.


Recent archaeological and genetic evidence have favored a unique southern coastal route. Under this scenario, the study of the population genetic structure of the Arabian Peninsula, the first step out of Africa, to search for primary genetic links between Africa and Eurasia, is crucial.


The haploid and maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) molecule has been the most used genetic marker to identify and to relate lineages with clear geographic origins , as the African Ls and the Eurasian M and N that have a common root with the Africans L3.


"Particularly, Yemen has the largest contribution of L lineages (30). So, most probably, this area was the entrance gate of a portion of these lineages in prehistoric times, which participated in the building of the primitive Arabian population."


Viktor Černý1 et al.

Migration of Chadic speaking pastoralists within Africa based on population structure of Chad Basin and phylogeography of mitochondrial L3f haplogroup

Quote:

We use high-resolution genetic data to investigate the genetic and linguistic support for hypotheses concerning the population history in the Chad Basin. The mitochondrial L3f3 haplogroup is found almost exclusively in Chadic speaking populations and its TMRCA corresponds well with archaeological and linguistic dates of the proposed migration of Chadic speaking pastoralists from East or North East Africa to the Chad Basin.


Haplogroup L3f is defined by the coding variants


3396-4218-15514-15944del and the control region motif 16209–16519 with a TMRCA of 57,100 ± 9,400 YBP. This haplogroup diversifies into sub-haplogroups L3f1, L3f2 and L3f3. The most geographically widespread sub-haplogroup is L3f1, which is distributed across the African continent [3] and also Arabia [32,33] and has a TMRCA of 48,600 ± 11,500 YBP.


..."The youngest clade, L3f1b2, seems to be more frequent in the Middle East. L3f1a seems to be older (37,700 ± 10,000 YBP) than its sister sub-haplogroup L3f1b and is also less diversified. A few samples from Chad belong to these sub-haplogroups: two to L3f1a and one to L3f1b3."

"We then estimated pairwise FST genetic distances between populations (Additional file 4) and displayed these on a MDS plot (Figure 3). Interesting results are immediately evident – while Chadic populations form a relatively homogeneous group, the Cushitic populations split into two completely different clusters. The first group is composed of Horn of African populations, such as Ethiopian and Somali Cushitic populations, which are close to neighbouring Ethiopian Semitic speaking groups and relatively close also to Chadic people from the Chad Basin. The second Cushitic group is composed by more southern groups from Tanzania, i.e. Burunge and Iraqw, who occupy outlier positions even within the Afro-Asiatic MDS plot. In the MDS plot, geography is more strongly associated with genetic distance than is linguistic affiliation.


Overall, we observe that Chadic speaking populations are intermixed with other populations from Chad Basin, including Niger-Congo, Semitic, and Berber speaking people. In this context, it seems that the linguistic categories play a secondary role in structuring the genetic diversity."


quote:
It is known and generally accepted that the original Arabs came from and arose at Yemen.

 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Perahu:

- The basal form of E1b1b1a*-V68* has only been found in Southern Europe.

But you see, that doesn't do you much good, because undifferentiated M78 chromosomes are virtually absent in Europe. The bulk of these are of African gene pool. Without M78, there can be no V13 (which itself is not European in origin).

As for the V68, these are more than likely chromosomes directly brought in from Africa. They are likely chromosomes whose positions within the M78 network will be determined later, as DNA screening gets refined in the future, just as some of the undifferentiated African M35* have been recently refined, with new binary markers.

For V68 to emerge in Europe, as you are insinuating, the most basic M35 chromosomes would have to have been in Europe. But these chromosomes are almost restricted to Africa, with the greatest diversity found anywhere. It's odd that there are no unique V68 sub-clades of Europe, yet the African-based V68 has spawned at least 3 different haplogroups. Don't you agree?

This is a very strong signal of the African origin to an African gene flow of V68 directly into Europe (seems to be what Trombetta et al. were tacitly getting at), as opposed to using the "Near East" as stopping point in the route.


There are also conflicting reports of V13's place in the M78 network. Can you explain this:

 -
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:

- Cruciani et al. proposed a northern Northeast Africa origin for M78*, the region of Egypt and Libya.

Cruciani et al. would not make a proposition like that, because their results don't say that. There is no M78* in Libya.

The reported high frequency was found in an upper Egyptian population: the Gurna.

quote:
- E1b1b1a in the Balkans is invariably E1b1b1a-V13. There is very little E-V13 in North Africa and where it is, it seems likely to be Jewish or Greek.
That's because the V13 emerged in Anatolia (among first farmers) en-route to Europe via "Middle East", from Africa.

quote:
- The Autosomal DNA of people in the Balkans is firmly European & West Asian.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F9XoyN2wE-w/ToZBZZT7jdI/AAAAAAAAAmI/qwmGu64Xvwk/s1600/admixture.png

Iberia is where the true African autosomal mixture in Europe is at (albeit very low!). Not the Balkans.

I guess this is why Greeks cluster closest to sub-Saharan Africans in HLA genes, which seems to be missing in your unsourced "admixture" map, even before the Spanish do.

I guess that's why admixture analysis elsewhere have reported traces of "sub-Saharan" in Spanish samples by around 10% and Turkish samples by around 9.4%, not factoring coastal north African ancestry and sub-Saharan east and central African influence.

Your link displays a "southeastern" component and a "far Asian" in the Ethiopian sample with a predominant "African" segment. What could those possibly be?

Here's something to stump you with:

How about the darkest Somalis (nearly the same skin color as the Dinka) who look no cranio-facially different from the lighter Somalis. How does your "ancient admixture from the Middle East" play into this?

How come the Rendille or say the Iraqw, as another example, who look no different from certain "Afro-Asiatic" groups in the African Horn, virtually show very little in common with Europeans?

Last but not least: Don't forget to tell me what "caucasoid tendencies" means in your own words. [Smile]
 
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
 
^ If Greeks cluster 'closest' to Sub-Saharan Black Africans why don't they look Negroid?

And how did black genes enter the Greeks? The only population of blacks in ancient Greece were slaves.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
[QUOTE]
 -

These guys are Habbaniyya from Hadramaut.
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cassiterides:
^ If Greeks cluster 'closest' to Sub-Saharan Black Africans why don't they look Negroid?

And how did black genes enter the Greeks? The only population of blacks in ancient Greece were slaves.

Because they mutated at the Crescent many thousands of years ago. Hence V13.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Perahu:
[qb] Certain Yemenis have *RECENT* slave ancestry from *SOUTH*-East Africa. Not even the Horn, but from the far South (i.e. Tanzania/Mozambique).

This has been confirmed by mtDNA analyses: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182106/

Those foreign looking Yemenis with profound Negrid phenotypes you like to spam are *NOT* true Natives.

Indigenous Yemenis have markedly Caucasoid physical features.
 -

“This is the meaning of the saying, … ‘a red man as if he is one of the slaves’. The speaker meant that his color is like that of the slaves..." Al Dhahabi in SIYAR AL NUBALA"A


 -


 -

These are people with the "ahmar" complexion of Syrians and Iranians and Rum (GREEK-Romans) which he Arabs said "RESEMBLED THE SLAVES"
Siyar al Nubala

Even Central Arabia was considered Bilad es Sudan by the Syrians like Al Umari 14th century A.D.. There is nothing indigenous to the Yemen in the people above. The Yemen was considere4d part of Ethiopia by the Persians and Syrians, Tihama and North Arabia WAS THE LAND OF kush and kedar.
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
[QUOTE]
 -

These guys are Habbaniyya from Hadramaut.

I posted this to show the relation and correlation between the Yemeni Yahudi population and the Lemba-Cohanim population who've stated they came from Yemen, and descent from the tribe of Benjamin.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
The word Negroid refers to physical characteristics characteristic of certain Africans and not to a race.


Many black Africans with narrow noses get their traits and other elongated features from desert evolution not from being related to Eurasiatics. Eurasiatic "Caucasoids have their own separate evolution and these groups come from populations that were not very numerous in Europe until 5,000 years ago, let alone in North Africa.

Most Mesolithic and Neolithic peoples in the Mediterranean and Anatolia and North Africa resembled Africans and not Eurasiatics.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
[QUOTE]
 -

These guys are Habbaniyya from Hadramaut.

I posted this to show the relation and correlation between the Yemeni Yahudi population and the Lemba-Cohanim population who've stated they came from Yemen, and descent from the tribe of Benjamin.
Oh - sorry - missed that.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Stop kidding yourself with make feel-good labels. You know very well that E1b1b1a is a "Negrid" marker.

Osiron trolls as Cassiretedes. He has a hard time keeping his labels straight.

That is impossible as Osirion is haratin and Cassiteredes is Greek or a wannabe Greek who doesn't know how Negroid some Greeks look. lol! [Wink]

 -
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cassiterides:
^ If Greeks cluster 'closest' to Sub-Saharan Black Africans why don't they look Negroid?

I was hoping either you or perahu would explain this to me, since you claim to have an idea of what causes "caucasoid tendencies" in Africans through admixture. If you can do that, you should be able to explain physiological tendencies in any group.

quote:
And how did black genes enter the Greeks?
Admixture!

quote:
The only population of blacks in ancient Greece were slaves.
Really? So when were Oromo, Amhara, Fulani, Mossi, Rimaibe for example, taken to Greece as slaves. According to what primary evidence?
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Perahu:
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
So you are new at this; you didn't know that hg J2 parents would have had to have contributed half of the offspring's 44 chromosomes?

The fact that J2 is there, should have rendered these groups "caucasoid" and "not true Africans", given your philosophy.
Prove it...and I don't mean lazily posted links, left for me to sort out.

How is it that "ancient admixture from the Middle East" renders Africans "caucasoid tendencies", your words, but not in this (Lemba) case?

Lemba mtDNA is highly Bantuid.

''These studies revealed that mtDNA types found in the Lemba are indistinguishable from the Venda and other south-eastern Bantu- speakers.''

Refiguring the archive - C. Hamilton.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
It has been found in Greek sample, for example, as high as ~ 21%, and about the same for Sicilians, Romanians -- about 22%, and going even as high as 32% in Albanians. Using your philosophy, Greeks should look like the "admixed Africans", shouldn't they?

I'm guessing you have not acquainted yourself with Luis et al. (2004), for example, to get some figures of African ancestry in Arabia?

Your so-called "ancient admixture from the Middle East" is also low, lest you are prepared to show otherwise.

E1b1b1a is a Hamitic/Eurafrican marker. The basal branches of E1b1b1a-V68 (without the M78 mutation) have only been found in Southern Europe, suggesting Mediterranean origins for this clade. E1b1b1a in Europe is mostly E1b1b1a-V13, which is pretty much absent in Africa.

"Aside from the several European haplogroups, we find haplogroup A and multiple groups of haplogroup E, specifically both E1b1a and E1b1b1. ALL OF THESE HAPLOGROUPS ARE AFRICAN IN ORIGIN."

"Haplogroup E1b1b1 (formerly E3b1a) is also African, but has a very different distribution, focused in North African with its highest concentration and found routinely in the Near East and throughout Southern Europe and north into France. "

Roberta Estes scientist and owner of DNA Explain - Head Advisor Melungeon dna project

http://jgoins.com
http://www.dnaexplain.com//dna_testing_and_the_melungeons.htm
 
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Cruciani et al. would not make a proposition like that, because their results don't say that. There is no M78* in Libya.

The reported high frequency was found in an upper Egyptian population: the Gurna.

That's still northern Northeast Africa. upper Egyptians are predominantly Hamitic anyway.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
That's because the V13 emerged in Anatolia (among first farmers) en-route to Europe via "Middle East", from Africa.

The initial V13 expansion into the Levant and Anatolia probably left an African autosomal trace there. But as V13 men moved closer to Europe, their African admixture became so diluted through West Eurasian mixture that it had little to no impact on the autosomal affinities of the Balkan peoples.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
I guess this is why Greeks cluster closest to sub-Saharan Africans in HLA genes, which seems to be missing in your unsourced "admixture" map, even before the Spanish do.

I guess that's why admixture analysis elsewhere have reported traces of "sub-Saharan" in Spanish samples by around 10% and Turkish samples by around 9.4%, not factoring coastal north African ancestry and sub-Saharan east and central African influence.

Do you even realize how ''potent'' African admixture is? Africans are the most divergent people in the world from West Eurasians. If Greeks were indeed 10% African admixed, they would cluster *FAR* away from North-Central Europeans. But this is not the case, Greeks cluster firmly with North-Central Europeans in global principal component analyses. Or would you say that Northern/Central Europeans are also heavily African mixed?

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
How about the darkest Somalis (nearly the same skin color as the Dinka) who look no cranio-facially different from the lighter Somalis. How does your "ancient admixture from the Middle East" play into this?

Those inherited Europid bone structure from their West Eurasian forebears and dark pigmentation from their Nilotic forebears. You can find similar patterns in South India, where you find very dark people with markedly Caucasoid facial structure. All Indians are various degrees of Caucasoid-Ancestral Indian (Australoid-like).

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
How come the Rendille or say the Iraqw, as another example, who look no different from certain "Afro-Asiatic" groups in the African Horn, virtually show very little in common with Europeans?

Those people came originally from the Horn. They cluster much closer to Eurasians compared to your average Sub-Saharan African.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Last but not least: Don't forget to tell me what "caucasoid tendencies" means in your own words.

I'm not interested in a semantics game, Caucasoid physical attributes are well-known.
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
*The Hamitic source...and so called thin features.

DNA analysis shows that Egyptians group with African peoples from the Sudan, Ethiopia, East Africa and parts of Cameroon, not with Europe or the Middle East.

*Notes on E-M78 and Rosa DNA study linking Egyptians with East and Central Africans.
DNA study (Rosa et al. 2007) groups Egyptians with East and Central Africans. Other DNA studies link these peoples together. Quote:“the majority of Y chromosomes found in populations in Egypt, Sudan, Ethiopia and Oromos in Somalia and North Kenya (Boranas) belong to haplogroup E3b1 defined by the Y chromosome marker M78“(Sanchez 2005). Codes: Egy=Egypt. Or= Oromo, Ethiopia. Am=Amahara, Ethiopia. Sud=Sudan. FCA=Cameroon. Maa= Massai, Kenya. Note: Eighty (80)% or more of the haplotypes in Cameroon are of West African origin (Rosa et al. 2007, Cerny et al. 2006). Ethiopia, Cameroon and most of the Sudan is located below the Sahara, and thus sub-Saharan.-- Rosa, et al.(2007) Y-chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau. BMC Evolutionary Biology. 7:124


Comparisons of linear body proportions of Old Kingdom and non-Old Kingdom period individuals, and workers and high officials in our sample found no statistically significant differences among them. Zakrzewski (2003) also found little evidence for differences in linear body proportions of Egyptians over a wider temporal range. In general, recent studies of skeletal variation among ancient Egyptians support scenarios of biological continuity through time. Irish (2006) analyzed quantitative and qualitative dental traits of 996 Egyptians from Neolithic through Roman periods, reporting the presence of a few outliers but concluding that the dental samples appear to be largely homogeneous and that the affinities observed indicate overall biological uniformity and continuity from Predynastic through Dynastic and Postdynastic periods.


Zakrzewski (2007) provided a comprehensive summary of previous Egyptian craniometric studies and examined Egyptian crania from six time periods. She found that the earlier samples were relatively more homogeneous in comparison to the later groups. However, overall results indicated genetic continuity over the Egyptian Predynastic and Early Dynastic periods, albeit with a high level of genetic diversity within the population, suggesting an indigenous process of state formation. She also concluded that while the biological patterning of the Egyptian population varied across time, no consistent temporal or spatial trends are apparent. Thus, the stature estimation formulae developed here may be broadly applicable to all ancient Egyptian populations..".


("Stature estimation in ancient Egyptians: A new technique based on anatomical reconstruction of stature." Michelle H. Raxter, Christopher B. Ruff, Ayman Azab, Moushira Erfan, Muhammad Soliman, Aly El-Sawaf,(Am J Phys Anthropol. 2008, Jun;136(2):147-55
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
You guys are actually arguing with these nutcases who use debunked terms they don't even bother to define like 'hamitic' 'negrid' 'bantuid'??! LMAO [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:

quote:
Originally posted by Paironuts:

- Cruciani et al. proposed a northern Northeast Africa origin for M78*, the region of Egypt and Libya.

Cruciani et al. would not make a proposition like that, because their results don't say that. There is no M78* in Libya.

The reported high frequency was found in an upper Egyptian population: the Gurna.

And here is what experts say about where M78* originated:

"The presence of E-M78* Y chromosomes in the Balkans (two Albanians) , previously described virtually only in northeast Africa, upper Nile, gives rise to the question of what the original source of the E-M78 may have been. Correlations between human-occupation sites and radiocarbon-dated climatic fluctuations in the eastern Sahara and Nile Valley during the Holocene provide a framework for interpreting the main southeast European centric distribution of E-V13. A recent archaeological study reveals that during a desiccation period in North Africa, while the eastern Sahara was depopulated, a refugium existed on the border of present-day Sudan and Egypt, near Lake Nubia, until the onset of a humid phase around 8500 BC (radiocarbon-calibrated date). The rapid arrival of wet conditions during this Early Holocene period provided an impetus for population movement into habitat that was quickly settled afterwards. Hg E-M78* representatives, although rare overall, still occur in Egypt, which is a hub for the distribution of the various geographically localized M78-related sub-clades. The northward-moving rainfall belts during this period could have also spurred a rapid migration of Mesolithic foragers northwards in Africa, the Levant and ultimately onwards to Asia Minor and Europe, where they each eventually differentiated their regionally distinctive branches."---Battaglia et al. (2008)

And here is how the men of that area looked like:

 -
The male cranium above is from Wadi al-Halfa on the Sudan-Egypt border. Dating from the Mesolithic-Holocene period, it is typical of crania in Sudan and surrounding regions from that time frame. More recent Nubian crania from the Christian period have more rounded skulls without the sloping frontal bone. However, the vertical zygomatic arch, prominent glabella, sagittal plateau, and occipital bun (less pronounced) are retained. The cranium above has pronounced facial prognathism, but moderate dental protrusion. The chin is vertical with a angular mandible and very squat ramus. (Image from David Lee Greene and George Armelagos. The Wadi Halfa mesolithic population. (Amherst: University of Massachusetts, 1972)

LOL Not very "Hamitic" looking.

quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

quote:
Originally posted by castratedhide:
^ If Greeks cluster 'closest' to Sub-Saharan Black Africans why don't they look Negroid?

And how did black genes enter the Greeks? The only population of blacks in ancient Greece were slaves.

Because they mutated at the Crescent many thousands of years ago. Hence V13.
Correct. To be more precise they moved from Egypt into the Levant and from there to Turkey, the Aegean, and Greece NOT as "slaves" but as free immigrants!

Hence,...

"Against this background of disease, movement and pedomorphic reduction off body size one can identify Negroid traits of nose and prognathism appearing in Natufian latest hunters (McCown, 1939) and in Anatolian and Macedonian first farmers, probably from Nubia via the predecesors of the Badarians and Tasians...." (Larry Angel)

The Natufians of the Levant were said to be the source of the earliest agriculturalists. So one can see the ramifications that these were black Africans who looked "negroid"!
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Paironuts but no brains:

Certain Yemenis have *RECENT* slave ancestry from *SOUTH*-East Africa. Not even the Horn, but from the far South (i.e. Tanzania/Mozambique).

This has been confirmed by mtDNA analyses: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182106/

Those foreign looking Yemenis with profound Negrid phenotypes you like to spam are *NOT* true Natives.

Indigenous Yemenis have markedly Caucasoid physical features.
 -
 -
 -

[Eek!] First off, Yemen geographically and climate wise is adjacent and continuous to sub-Saharan east Africa, specifically Ethiopia and Djibouti. Do you really believe that the indigenous population of the region looks like the above?? Because if so, you are dumber and crazier than we initially thought!

You obviously don't realize the only reason why fair-skinned types like the above exist in Yemen is because Persians colonized Yemen during the Sassanid dynasty during pre-Islamic times and later influx of Persians came about during the Ottoman Empire! This is why such fair-skinned Yemenis speak with a totally different dialect and accent that is Persian from the true native Yemenis and why even the fair-skinned elites don't speak Arabic well, let alone the indigenous South Semitic tongues!!

You are obviously an ignoramus who knows little to nothing. [Embarrassed]
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Paironuts but no brains:

Idiot, there many African minority groups in Arab countries. That first man is obviously not a native of Socotra, he looks to be from Southeast Africa. Probably a lower class slave descendant.

This is how the aboriginals of Socotra look like. Quite East Indian looking.

Socotri
 -
 -
 -
 -

LOL Again you know not what you write. Of course there are Socotrans who look Indian because that is what they are! Socotra was settled by Indians early in the 1st century which is why the name 'Socotra' is derived from Sanskrit sukhadhara meaning bliss! Other peoples settled the island besides Indians like Arabs and Persians from Yemen; however the natives remained. These natives were described in many Western texts as 'Hamitic' and having much in common with Somalis and indigenous Yemenis!

THIS is how the indigenous Socotrans look like:

 -
 -
 -
 -

It's funny how you discounted the black man with the short kinky hair as a foreigner from southeast Africa but you consider whitish looking people of Yemen as indigenous! LOL This shows the hypocrisy typical in racists like yourself.

You consider any features deviating from the stereotypical 'negro' as evidence of admixture from peoples outside Africa yet you ignore actual African admixture among your own European people especially in southern Europe along the Mediterranean. Meanwhile, even though Arabia is right next to Africa you think the indigenous people don't look anything remotely African! LMAO You are a joke!
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
The Socortrans probably represent what the original Elamites and other black Asiatic populations described as Kushites by various peoples.
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
l-Barga reveals one of the most important necropoleis of the early Holocene in Africa.

This site was discovered in 2001 during a survey concentrating on the zones bordering the alluvial plain. The name el-Barga is borrowed from a nearby mountain. The site is located on an elevation formed by an outcrop of bedrock (Nubian sandstone) less than 15 km from the Nile, as the crow flies. It includes a settlement area dated to circa 7500 B.C. and cemeteries belonging to two distinct periods.

The habitation is a circular hut slightly less than five metres in diameter, its maximum depth exceeding 50 centimetres. This semi-subterranean structure contained a wealth of artefacts resulting from the site’s occupation (ceramics, grinding tools, flint objects, ostrich eggshell beads, a mother-of-pearl pendant, bone tools, faunal remains, shells). The abundance of artefacts discovered suggests a marked inclination towards a sedentary lifestyle, even though certain activities (fishing and hunting) necessitate seasonal migration.

North of this habitation, about forty burials were dated to the Epipalaeolithic (7700-7000 B.C.) and generally do not contain any furnishings. On the other hand, the Neolithic cemetery (6000-5500 B.C.) located further south comprises about a hundred burials often containing artefacts (adornment, ceramics, flint or bone objects).



 -  -


For further information, read the publications of M. Honegger.
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Such a site represents what Brandon and I have pointed out before about the Sudanic cultures like the Khartoum Mesolithic being among the earliest sedentary cultures around the Nile.

quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:

The Socortrans probably represent what the original Elamites and other black Asiatic populations described as Kushites by various peoples.

I believe the Socotrans, the indigenous ones that is, represent the original Arabians of southwest Arabia and Yemen. Note their appearance is very much like those of Ethiopians which is why ancient Greeks considered African lands east of the Nile as 'Arabia' also and why they also called Arabia 'Kush'. The Elamites were likely closer related to peoples in Pakistan and India and perhaps indigenous Arabians around the Persian Gulf.

Elamites
 -

Indian man
 -
 
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
 
Indigenous Arabians are the Veddoids -

 -

 -

Veddoid-looking people are first noticed, in proceeding from west to east, in the country around Aden, and as a minority element in the population of southern Yemen.

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-XI6.htm
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
^^^^
Why should anyone take anything this liar says as truth..


Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Good expose of this liar.

Afronuts also attribute false quotes/distort Grafton Elliot Smith and David MacRitchie.[/b]

^^Look who's talking abut lies, the biggest liar
on these forums himself. Don't run. Face the music.

Originally posted by cassitrides:
quote:

The source is Cavalli-Sforza's book on the Pygmies entitled 'African pygmies' (Academic Press, 1986).

This work shows that Negroids mutated from an ancestral pygmy population around 9,000 BC in West Africa. So the 'true' Black African today is a recent mutation. Caucasoids and Mongoloids predate them. [Wink] Negroids only migrated into other parts of Africa during the Bantu expansion or slightly earlier. Prior to them, Caucasoids inhabited North Africa and Bushmen (Capoids) to the south who were displaced by the Caucasoids from the Mediterranean around 12,000 BC.

^^A bogus reference.
Why should anyone take your word for it given
past bogus references? Quote where Cavalli-Sforza
says these so-called "negroids" "mutated" from
Pygmies. The burden of proof is on you, since you made
the claim.

While you scurry to cover your tracks with yet
more bogus claims, Cavali Sforza, in his well
known The History and Geography of Human Genes,
1994 Cavalli-Sforza summarizes his 1986 work on
Pygmies and specifically debunks the "Pygmy as ancestor"
theory held by other older writings. QUOTE:


"It remains difficult to pinpoint an ancient place
of origin for the Negroid type which includes all
West, Central and South Africans. Contrary to many
earlier opinions, modern Pygmies and Khosians are
not good candidates for a proto-African population."

--Cavalli Sforza et al, 1994. The history and geography of human genes. 194


SO much for your lying claims of "mutations" from "Pygymy" ancestors.
In short, you lied about Cavalli-Sforza, creating a falsified
claim and a bogus "supporting" reference to a claim that is
nowhere supported in his work. You are once again
exposed as yet another racist, who relies on bogus
"evidence" to advance, dubious and debunked claims.
You are not fooling anyone.

 -
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cassiterides:
Indigenous Arabians are the Veddoids -

 -

 -

Veddoid-looking people are first noticed, in proceeding from west to east, in the country around Aden, and as a minority element in the population of southern Yemen.

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-XI6.htm

I partly agree, on the Veddoids, they are a old group in that region. But that's all there is to it. No more no less.


However, the ancient population of Yemen came directly from Africa. This happend in multiple streams. This is why the Semitic branch is diverted from Afroasian. Which has its roots in Africa. At lake Nubia. And this is also why they don't speak Indo-.... something. lol


Since you are slow, I will repost this for you.

quote:



As you probebly already know, there is Northern Arabic and Southern Arabic. We also know that Arabic actually split from Afroasian as the original proto-Arabic speakers from Africa moved into the Levant. Further into Southwest Asia. Where it evolved into a Semitic branch.


And, we know that Northern Arabic speakers came from the region of the Crescent, and aren't native to Yemen, but are recent immigrants.

I have always wondered why Rasulullah fled to Abyssinia, to seek refuge?


Speaking of aboriginals, the pre-Islamic time?

Khaled K Abu-Amero et al.

Mitochondrial DNA structure in the Arabian Peninsula


Two potential migratory routes followed by modern humans to colonize Eurasia from Africa have been proposed. These are the two natural passageways that connect both continents: the northern route through the Sinai Peninsula and the southern route across the Bab al Mandab strait.


Recent archaeological and genetic evidence have favored a unique southern coastal route. Under this scenario, the study of the population genetic structure of the Arabian Peninsula, the first step out of Africa, to search for primary genetic links between Africa and Eurasia, is crucial.


The haploid and maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) molecule has been the most used genetic marker to identify and to relate lineages with clear geographic origins , as the African Ls and the Eurasian M and N that have a common root with the Africans L3.


"Particularly, Yemen has the largest contribution of L lineages (30). So, most probably, this area was the entrance gate of a portion of these lineages in prehistoric times, which participated in the building of the primitive Arabian population."


Viktor Černý1 et al.

Migration of Chadic speaking pastoralists within Africa based on population structure of Chad Basin and phylogeography of mitochondrial L3f haplogroup

Quote:

We use high-resolution genetic data to investigate the genetic and linguistic support for hypotheses concerning the population history in the Chad Basin. The mitochondrial L3f3 haplogroup is found almost exclusively in Chadic speaking populations and its TMRCA corresponds well with archaeological and linguistic dates of the proposed migration of Chadic speaking pastoralists from East or North East Africa to the Chad Basin.


Haplogroup L3f is defined by the coding variants


3396-4218-15514-15944del and the control region motif 16209–16519 with a TMRCA of 57,100 ± 9,400 YBP. This haplogroup diversifies into sub-haplogroups L3f1, L3f2 and L3f3. The most geographically widespread sub-haplogroup is L3f1, which is distributed across the African continent [3] and also Arabia [32,33] and has a TMRCA of 48,600 ± 11,500 YBP.


..."The youngest clade, L3f1b2, seems to be more frequent in the Middle East. L3f1a seems to be older (37,700 ± 10,000 YBP) than its sister sub-haplogroup L3f1b and is also less diversified. A few samples from Chad belong to these sub-haplogroups: two to L3f1a and one to L3f1b3."

"We then estimated pairwise FST genetic distances between populations (Additional file 4) and displayed these on a MDS plot (Figure 3). Interesting results are immediately evident – while Chadic populations form a relatively homogeneous group, the Cushitic populations split into two completely different clusters. The first group is composed of Horn of African populations, such as Ethiopian and Somali Cushitic populations, which are close to neighbouring Ethiopian Semitic speaking groups and relatively close also to Chadic people from the Chad Basin. The second Cushitic group is composed by more southern groups from Tanzania, i.e. Burunge and Iraqw, who occupy outlier positions even within the Afro-Asiatic MDS plot. In the MDS plot, geography is more strongly associated with genetic distance than is linguistic affiliation.


Overall, we observe that Chadic speaking populations are intermixed with other populations from Chad Basin, including Niger-Congo, Semitic, and Berber speaking people. In this context, it seems that the linguistic categories play a secondary role in structuring the genetic diversity."


It is known and generally accepted that the original Arabs came from and arose at Yemen.

Please, stop embarrassing yourself any further.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Such a site represents what Brandon and I have pointed out before about the Sudanic cultures like the Khartoum Mesolithic being among the earliest sedentary cultures around the Nile.

quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:

The Socortrans probably represent what the original Elamites and other black Asiatic populations described as Kushites by various peoples.

I believe the Socotrans, the indigenous ones that is, represent the original Arabians of southwest Arabia and Yemen. Note their appearance is very much like those of Ethiopians which is why ancient Greeks considered African lands east of the Nile as 'Arabia' also and why they also called Arabia 'Kush'. The Elamites were likely closer related to peoples in Pakistan and India and perhaps indigenous Arabians around the Persian Gulf.

Elamites
 -

Indian man
 -

Those men you named "Elamites" are Persians of Elam. Elamites of Elam and Persians of Elam were two different people.

The Tamil guy looks mixed and like a darker version of a North Indian, unlike the lesser mixed ones who don't have straight hair and remind me of the Elamites. Elamites and Tamil were and relatively small or short people unlike the Dahae (Persians) who were a head foot taller than the Greeks and originators of the Medic and Indo-Iranian dialects.

 -
Elamite of Susa

 -
Tamil guru Premananda


Persians (Faras) occupied Elam, Gandhara and the Caucasus and spoke a different language and were supposedly originally Cephenians or Ethiopians (south Arabians).

 -

 -
Man from Darud tribe of Somalia
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cassiterides:
Indigenous Arabians are the Veddoids -

 -

 -

Veddoid-looking people are first noticed, in proceeding from west to east, in the country around Aden, and as a minority element in the population of southern Yemen.

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-XI6.htm

South Indian peoples were brought into southern Arabia through slavery. They are a small minority of both East African and Arabian populations.

The little skeletal evidence we have from ancient Arabia shows the original populations of Nubia Arabia and ancient Egypt were for the most part identical.
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Perahu:
That's still northern Northeast Africa. upper Egyptians are predominantly Hamitic anyway.

By this, I take it that you'll include west African latitudes equivalent to southern Northeast Africa as "northwest Africa"?

Of course, calling it "northern" Northeast Africa, does not change the fact that those regions of Egypt mainly consist of fairly darkly pigmented groups, who closely resemble populations in tropical Africa.

Hamitic is an emotional word. It has no scientific grounding.

quote:
The initial V13 expansion into the Levant and Anatolia probably left an African autosomal trace there. But as V13 men moved closer to Europe, their African admixture became so diluted through West Eurasian mixture that it had little to no impact on the autosomal affinities of the Balkan peoples.
The problem with this thinking, is that it is grounded in the unscientific belief that genetic exchange between Africans and Europeans suddenly seized with the introgression of Neolithic farmers into Europe.

quote:
Do you even realize how ''potent'' African admixture is? Africans are the most divergent people in the world from West Eurasians.
Not according to genes like the HLA, and certainly not according to Sforza, whose findings make sense, because West Eurasians are more geographically proximate to Africans than others far east. One would expect them to be relatively closer to Africans than the more geographically distant groups. [Smile]
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by cassiterides:
Indigenous Arabians are the Veddoids -

 -

 -

Veddoid-looking people are first noticed, in proceeding from west to east, in the country around Aden, and as a minority element in the population of southern Yemen.

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-XI6.htm

South Indian peoples were brought into southern Arabia through slavery. They are a small minority of both East African and Arabian populations.

The little skeletal evidence we have from ancient Arabia shows the original populations of Nubia Arabia and ancient Egypt were for the most part identical.

When were South Indians sold into Arabian slavery?

.
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Perahu:
If Greeks were indeed 10% African admixed, they would cluster *FAR* away from North-Central Europeans. But this is not the case, Greeks cluster firmly with North-Central Europeans in global principal component analyses. Or would you say that Northern/Central Europeans are also heavily African mixed?

It boils down to which population segments and what markers are screened. The fact that Greeks cluster closer to sub-Saharan groups in say, HLA, than even the Spanish do, demonstrates that telltale signs of recent African ancestry in Europe persist outside of uniparental lineages.

Likewise, any assessment dealing with the Benin haplotype HbS, will show that southern Europeans had generally seen more direct African gene flow than the more geographically distant Europeans. [Wink]

quote:
Those inherited Europid bone structure from their West Eurasian forebears and dark pigmentation from their Nilotic forebears.
Interesting. Yet, this pattern did not manifest itself in the Buba Lemba?

What about the body plan; how does the "Europid bone structure of their West Eurasian forebears" play into this?

Are these "West Eurasian forebears" albinos, such that said Somalis would have skin pigmentation that approximates those of the Sudanese Dinka?

Also: What markers in the Somali do you consider "Nilotic"?

Why do core Somali cultures look nothing like their "West Eurasian forebears"?

quote:
You can find similar patterns in South India, where you find very dark people with markedly Caucasoid facial structure. All Indians are various degrees of Caucasoid-Ancestral Indian (Australoid-like)
With skin tones similar to the kind seen on Dinka or the Nuer people of Sudan and Ethiopia?

quote:
Those people came originally from the Horn. They cluster much closer to Eurasians compared to your average Sub-Saharan African.
You are not listening buddy. Samples of these groups have shown nearly nothing in common with Europeans in a STR, indel and SNP cluster assessment; yet, said groups don't look all that cranio-facially different from their counterparts in the African Horn.

quote:
I'm not interested in a semantics game, Caucasoid physical attributes are well-known.
It is interesting that you have a problem defining words you use in your own words. It's more than likely because they have no tangible merit. [Smile]
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
Perahu, given your own raising of E-V13, I find it curious that you did not answer this:

There are conflicting reports of V13's place in the M78 network; can you isolate what the authors were thinking here...

 -
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
Perahu, another matter you've curiously been mum on:


Your link displays a "southeastern" component and a "far Asian" in the Ethiopian sample with a predominant "African" segment. What could those possibly be?
 
Posted by Marc Washington (Member # 10979) on :
 
.
.

 -

http://www.beforebc.de/Made.by.Humankind/Real.People/05-09ia-05.html

 -

http://www.beforebc.de/Made.by.Humankind/Real.People/02-17-00-22.html

.
.
 
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
The "African climate" incorporates diverse temperature,
humidity, atmospheric pressure, wind, rainfall,
atmospheric particle count and other meteorological
elements in a wide range of environments -- from
deserts, to high altitude snowy zones, to jungle,
to savannah, to mixed woodlands, to higher altitude cloud forest,
and all that is WITHIN the TROPICAL zone of Africa.

 -

---------------------------------------------------------

And just as tropical African environments are diverse,
so are tropical African peoples as credible scientists
note time and time again.

QUOTES:


Most phenotypic variation
"Both methods for estimating regional diversity show sub-Saharan
Africa to have the highest levels of phenotypic variation, consistent with many genetic studies."
--- Relethford, John "Global Analysis of Regional Differences in Craniometric
Diversity and Population Substructure". Human Biology - Volume 73, Number 5,
October 2001, pp. 629-636)


Most genetic variation
"Africa contains tremendous cultural, linguistic and genetic diversity, and
has more than 2,000 distinct ethnic groups and languages.. Studies using
mitochondrial (mt)DNA and nuclear DNA markers consistently indicate that
Africa is the most genetically diverse region of the world."
---Tishkoff SA, Williams SM., Genetic analysis of African populations:
human evolution and complex disease. Nature Reviews Genetics. 2002 Aug (8):611-21.)


Most skin color variation
"Previous studies of genetic and craniometric traits have found higher
levels of within-population diversity in sub-Saharan Africa compared
to other geographic regions.
This study examines regional differences in within-population diversity
of human skin color. Published data on skin reflectance were collected
for 98 male samples from eight geographic regions: sub-Saharan Africa,
North Africa, Europe, West Asia, Southwest Asia, South Asia, Australasia,
and the New World. Regional differences in local within-population diversity
were examined using two measures of variability: the sample variance and
the sample coefficient of variation. For both measures, the average level of
within-population diversity is higher in sub-Saharan Africa than in other geographic
regions. This difference persists even after adjusting for a correlation between
within-population diversity and distance from the equator. Though affected by
natural selection, skin color variation shows the same pattern of higher African
diversity as found with other traits."

-- Relethford JH.(2000). Human skin color diversity is highest in sub-Saharan
African populations. Hum Biol. 2000 Oct;72(5):773-80.)

 -
Tropically proportioned diversity ...... [Smile]
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:


 -

Actually, that photo of yours was not a good example of tropical diversity as of course such weaves come in many lengths and colors today. Iman's in fact is normally rather lank without the curls. [Smile]
 
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
^Hey Brain deads: since you love this bullsh1t so much, here is some more - If you can get your heads out of your asses long enough, you might notice that they contradict each other. Which is typical for nonsense.


Ancient DNA Mutations Permitted Humans to Adapt to Colder Climates, UCI Researchers Find.

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/view.php?id=24169


Adapting to Climate Extremes

http://anthro.palomar.edu/adapt/adapt_2.htm


Neanderthal faces were not adapted to cold.


http://www.archaeologydaily.com/news/201101185942/Neanderthal-faces-were-not-adapted-to-cold.html


^What a bunch of assholes.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
I can not resist mentioning this.

One pitifully, disturbed and desperate Euronut had the audacity recently to try and slander a genetic study by European scholars on a blog calling it a "Study clarification".lol! The article and part he/she didn't like is below.

(And I bet he saw it on Egyptsearch first.)

Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements

“Saharan genetic lineages (affiliated with the Y-chromosome PN2 clade; Underhill
et al. 2001) have spread through Egypt into the Near East, the Mediterranean area, and, for some lineages, as far north as Turkey (E3b-M35 Y lineage; Cinniog¢lu et al. 2004; Luis et al. 2004), probably during several dispersal episodes since the Mesolithic (Cinniog¢lu et al. 2004; King et al. 2008; Lucotte and Mercier 2003; Luis et al. 2004; Quintana-Murci et al. 1999; Semino et al. 2004; Underhill et al. 2001). This finding is in agreement with morphological data that suggest that populations with sub-Saharan morphological elements were present in northeastern Africa, from the Paleolithic to at least the early Holocene, and diffused northward to the Levant and Anatolia beginning in the Mesolithic. Indeed, the rare and incomplete Paleolithic to early Neolithic skeletal specimens found in Egypt—such as the 33,000-year-old Nazlet Khater specimen (Pinhasi and Semal 2000), the Wadi Kubbaniya skeleton from the late Paleolithic site in the upper Nile valley (Wendorf et al. 1986), the Qarunian (Faiyum) early Neolithic crania (Henneberg et al. 1989; Midant-Reynes 2000), and the Nabta specimen from the Neolithic Nabta Playa site in the western desert of Egypt (Henneberg et al. 1980)—show, with regard to the great African biological diversity, similarities with some of the sub-Saharan middle Paleolithic and modern sub-Saharan specimens. This affinity pattern between ancient Egyptians and sub-Saharans has also been noticed by several other investigators (Angel 1972; Berry and Berry 1967, 1972; Keita 1995) and has been recently reinforced by the study of Brace et al. (2005), which clearly shows that the cranial morphology of prehistoric and recent northeast African populations is linked to sub-Saharan populations (Niger-Congo populations).”


http://racialreality.blogspot.com/2010/02/study-clarification-v.html


At the bottom of his or her pseudocritique the frustrated Euronut writes - "Another perfectly good study marred by poor analysis that unfortunately plays right into the hands of people with an Afrocentric racial agenda." lmbo!
 
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
^Retards - I got more for you.

Overall the Neandertalis build for heat retention as we would expect after its 300,000+ year experience in the high latitudes of Europe. Homo sapiens is build for heat dissipation as we would expect from a tropically adapted mammal.

(I knew IT!! White people are NOT Humans)!

web page


More proof - if you're NOT tropically adapted - you CAN'T be Human!


http://www.mightystudents.com/essay/Anatomy.Homo.Erectus.88400


Idiots like you Brain deads even did a study.
Watch them trip all over themselves.

Adult Proportionality in Small-Bodied Foragers
A Test of Ecogeographic Expectations


CONCLUSIONS

The region inhabited by most LSA foragers in coastal southern Africa during the Holocene is at 348 South in latitude, and the climate is cooler and dryer than the climate characterizing tropical regions. This study investigated the accuracy of including these foragers into a larger Sub-Saharan, low latitude, or warm-adapted group for the purpose of exploring human ecogeographic patterning, as is often done inhuman ecogeographic literature. The results indicate that the body proportions of this LSA sample are more similar in brachial and limb-to-trunk indices to northern mid-latitude populations, such as those from North Africa, than they are to low latitude African samples. This is not unexpected, given that the northern and southern coasts of Africa lie at similar distances from the equator, and therefore at similar mid-latitude regions. On the other hand, absolute BIB and the BIB to FL ratio of the LSA group is the lowest of all of the samples, lower even than the East and West African samples. The adaptive relevance of the BIB/FL ratio in relation to climate is questionable. As well, the overall small body size characteristic of the LSA foragers and the historic Khoe-San is more consistent with a low latitude region as per Bergmann's rule. Although the Andaman Islanders show limb proportionality that is consistent with their tropical environment, they too show inconsistencies in trunk-to-limb or BM measures. One particularly interesting finding is that while the LSA, Khoe-San and Andaman Islander groups have very narrow BIBs, they do not appear as stocky as the African pygmy group when BIB to FL ratios are examined. One would expect a stocky physique given the short stature of all of these groups. The possibility arises that climatic factors play a less important role in body size and proportions outside of climatic extremes, or that life history or other factors also play a role in determining body size and proportions. Additionally, it maybe that small body size itself, as is characteristic of the LSA, Khoe-San, Andaman Islander, and African pygmy groups results indifferent responses to climatic factors. When the new information from LSA and Andaman Islander samples are combined with published data on African pygmies and Khoe-San, it appears that small-bodied populations in many ways meet ecogeo- graphic body proportion expectations for the particular regions they inhabit. However, they may meet these thermo regulatory selective pressures in ways that are slightly different from those of larger-bodied populations. Each small-bodied sample has its own distinctive proportional features. The applicability of current body size estimation methods from skeletal remains continues to be problematic for samples like that of the LSA because of the scarcity of not only mid-latitude reference samples, but also of reference samples with diminutive body size ranges, needed to validate estimations of stature and BM.


web page
 
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
^My point is that your unabashed show of stupidity is annoying to me. If you must engage in such asinine debate why not move to stormfront. There are innocents here who might take it seriously.
 
Posted by malibudusul (Member # 19346) on :
 
"White people are NOT Humans" [Eek!]

white people from hell?
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:

Those men you named "Elamites" are Persians of Elam. Elamites of Elam and Persians of Elam were two different people.

[Confused] What exactly do you mean?? The ancient soldiers pictured are 'Persian' warriors yes, but they are Persian by nationality not ethnically. Ethically they were obviously indigenous Elamites and not the immigrant Persians to took over the Iranian plateau as well as Elam proper.

quote:
The Tamil guy looks mixed and like a darker version of a North Indian, unlike the lesser mixed ones who don't have straight hair and remind me of the Elamites. Elamites and Tamil were and relatively small or short people unlike the Dahae (Persians) who were a head foot taller than the Greeks and originators of the Medic and Indo-Iranian dialects.
I don't know what you mean. His hair is not that straight but wavy and I have seen south Indians as well as northern ones with both forms.

quote:
 -
Elamite of Susa

 -
Tamil guru Premananda


Persians (Faras) occupied Elam, Gandhara and the Caucasus and spoke a different language and were supposedly originally Cephenians or Ethiopians (south Arabians).

 -

 -
Man from Darud tribe of Somalia

Last time I checked the Persians or Parsi were one of various Iranic (Indo-European) speaking peoples who entered Iran from Central Asia. Before the Persians took control of Iran their Medes siblings did. I do agree that early Arabians did share affinities with Africans next door.
 


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