quote:The Tyrolean Iceman is known as one of the oldest human glacier mummies, directly dated to 3350–3120 calibrated BCE. A previously published low-coverage genome provided novel insights into European prehistory, despite high present-day DNA contamination. Here, we generate a high-coverage genome with low contamination (15.3×) to gain further insights into the genetic history and phenotype of this individual. Contrary to previous studies, we found no detectable Steppe-related ancestry in the Iceman. Instead, he retained the highest Anatolian-farmer-related ancestry among contemporaneous European populations, indicating a rather isolated Alpine population with limited gene flow from hunter-gatherer-ancestry-related populations. Phenotypic analysis revealed that the Iceman likely had darker skin than present-day Europeans and carried risk alleles associated with male-pattern baldness, type 2 diabetes, and obesity-related metabolic syndrome. These results corroborate phenotypic observations of the preserved mummified body, such as high pigmentation of his skin and the absence of hair on his head.
From the text of the paper:
quote:While genetic information cannot yet be used to completely reconstruct the appearance of an individual, genetic models exist for specific phenotypic features. Among those, skin pigmentation is a relatively well-understood trait that can be inferred from genetic data. We examined 170 skin pigmentation-associated SNPs from the UK Biobank genome-wide association study (GWAS) for skin color and retrieved diploid genotype information from 154 biallelic sites in Iceman. Each phenotype-informative SNP has a different effect size, i.e., the variance in pigmentation explained by individual SNPs is different. Thus, we combined the effect size of each pigmentation-informative SNP together with all examined effective alleles as an indication for the final phenotypic trait. To take effect size impact into consideration, we calculated a weighted genetic score given the individual SNP weight from the UK Biobank GWAS-estimated effect sizes, which is the weighted proportion of dark pigmentation alleles used as an indicator of skin pigmentation. The weighted genetic score of dark pigmentation in the Iceman is estimated to be 0.591, higher than the score of present-day southern European populations taking Sardinians as an example (Table S11), which the Iceman shares closest genetic affinity to (Figure S1) and which represent the highest level of pigmentation among modern-day European groups, although it is lower than the score of ancient LBK farmers and the Luxembourg_Loschbour.DG hunter-gatherer (Table S11).
quote:Posted by Brandon These results corroborate phenotypic observations of the preserved mummified body, such as high pigmentation of his skin and the absence of hair on his head.
Seems though they found some hair:
quote: A few clumps of hair were found around the body, indicating that Ötzi had dark, medium-long hair which he wore loose.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: yes but what was his race?
Seems the findings have awoke more than only scientific curiosity online, they have also awoken suspicion and allegations of some kind of political manipulation.
Here are a couple of voices from a Swedish online forum:
quote: So when the same genome analysis was done in 2012 and found he had light skin and light eyes, it was wrong because DNA sequencing has improved in just 11 years? A bit hard to believe and rather an expression of prevailing ideological currents in the academic world.
It also shows what a joke genetics is when it can be used for blatant political rewriting of archeology and history
quote: I would wait to draw any definite conclusions from this. We now have a new political climate where history is being rewritten.
We have also destroyed the research at our universities so that it is now only 50% of all scientific work that gives the same results if you redo the same work.
That doesn't mean it can't be true. Just that I would be careful about jumping to any conclusions.
quote: "I don't really understand what his skin color has to do with politics. Would they have falsified research results to conclude that there were Africans living in Europe 5000 years ago?"
Yes.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Ötzi’s preservation on ice presented an early opportunity to do ancient-DNA work. In 2012, researchers published a draft version of Ötzi’s genome — one of the first ancient genomes ever sequenced. The analysis suggested that Ötzi had pale skin, brown eyes (previously thought to be blue) and steppe ancestry.
Divided by DNA: The uneasy relationship between archaeology and ancient genomics
This latter point was surprising because steppe ancestry — from ancient herding people hailing from eastern Europe and central Asia — is common among southern Europeans today, and research suggested that steppe people didn’t make their way into Europe for 1,000 years after Ötzi died. But researchers knew early on that Ötzi’s genome wasn’t sequenced perfectly.
Ancient-DNA technology has since improved by leaps and bounds. So, Zink and his colleagues collected shards from Ötzi’s exposed hip bone and sent it to Germany to be sequenced.
This higher-quality genome showed that Ötzi’s suspected steppe ancestry probably stemmed from modern DNA contamination . Instead, the team found an astonishing level of Anatolian-farmer ancestry. These early agriculturalists, who lived in the land sandwiched between the Mediterranean and Black seas, are thought to have migrated into Europe and mixed with local hunter-gatherers. But Ötzi didn’t carry much European hunter-gatherer DNA, hinting that his lineage was genetically isolated from other Europeans at the time.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: yes but what was his race?
What do you mean? Oztis is a ancient European with genetic ties to ancient people ine modern country of Turkey. Otzi race is human.
Posts: 1123 | From: New York | Registered: Feb 2016
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quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: An artistic reconstruction by Tom Bjorklund:
So if he looked like this is he biologically more similar to Western Europeans or Africans?
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: An artistic reconstruction by Tom Bjorklund:
So if he looked like this is he biologically more similar to Western Europeans or Africans?
Ötzi shares the greatest genetic similarity with Sardinians, a group of Southern Europeans, followed by Western Europeans. Africans don't cluster close to Anatolian farmers.
Besides, this Sardinian bears a resemblance to this recreated Ötzi.
posted
@mightywolf Precisely, but those people consistently interpret "darker skin" as resembling black africans.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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So basically when the results don't agree with them and their ideologies they bitch and whine and make allusions to some "political" agenda, as if Otzi has any sort of political bearing on any modern nation or government..esp Sweden of all places..but OK
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: yes but what was his race?
Seems the findings have awoke more than only scientific curiosity online, they have also awoken suspicion and allegations of some kind of political manipulation.
Here are a couple of voices from a Swedish online forum:
quote: So when the same genome analysis was done in 2012 and found he had light skin and light eyes, it was wrong because DNA sequencing has improved in just 11 years? A bit hard to believe and rather an expression of prevailing ideological currents in the academic world.
It also shows what a joke genetics is when it can be used for blatant political rewriting of archeology and history
quote: I would wait to draw any definite conclusions from this. We now have a new political climate where history is being rewritten.
We have also destroyed the research at our universities so that it is now only 50% of all scientific work that gives the same results if you redo the same work.
That doesn't mean it can't be true. Just that I would be careful about jumping to any conclusions.
quote: "I don't really understand what his skin color has to do with politics. Would they have falsified research results to conclude that there were Africans living in Europe 5000 years ago?"
Yes.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
The only interpretaion here depicting anything having to do with or resembling a "black African" was done by a European, possibly Swedish Artist.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: @mightywolf Precisely, but those people consistently interpret "darker skin" as resembling black africans.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Posted by -Just Call Me Jari So basically when the results don't agree with them and their ideologies they bitch and whine and make allusions to some "political" agenda, as if Otzi has any sort of political bearing on any modern nation or government..esp Sweden of all places..but OK [Roll Eyes]
Seems to be a common phenomena in many places. You can see the same among people who think that a light skinned Egyptian statue is a fake because it does not fit their picture of how ancient Egyptians looked like. Or one hear complaints about studies like the Abusir study which did not show the result that some people wished. And you can hear it among people who are not Egyptians or have any direct association to Egypt.
When it comes to Ötzi, when he was discovered there was some bickering between Italy and Austria about which country should have the right to own his remains (he was found nearly on the border between the two countries). In the end Italy "won". These kind of finds easily turns into national symbols, or even symbols for a whole continent.
Tom Björklund is originally from Finland but speaks Swedish too. When he painted Lola, a stone age girl from Denmark reconstructed from the DNA in a "chewing gum" made of birch tar, he was accused by some to paint her too light and by others to have painted her too dark. There are always some who are not happy with these results.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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posted
DNA studies or new archelogical/antrhopolical finds are always more complicated than what most lay people understand or admit. In the case of the AbuSier study the complain was not that it showed stuff I did'nt want to find but the sensationalist Dog Whistling title, they used to garner media attention. As far as "Light Skinned" A. Egyptian statues, that's trivial, one can point to counless example of "Dark Skinned" statues, and the only ones I think are fake are so because of their sloppy and or unusual appearance, has nothing to do with the skin tone of said statue.
Weird how Italy/Austria are the main contenders for Otzi, yet Swedes are whining about some supposed "Agenda" which has nothing to do with them. Also Weird how Otzi is described as just "Darker" than modern Europeans w/o any context to exact complexion, he could've been olive skinned but somehow that is "Political rewriting of history", why are they so bothered, esp. when Otzi is not an ethnic ancestral Swede? Are'nt Modern Sardinians able to get darker complexions, like another poster pointed out?
Weird, its almost like they expect an ancient Europeans to only have their complexion, almost like Aforcentrists with A. Egyptians.
weird....
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
quote:Posted by -Just Call Me Jari So basically when the results don't agree with them and their ideologies they bitch and whine and make allusions to some "political" agenda, as if Otzi has any sort of political bearing on any modern nation or government..esp Sweden of all places..but OK [Roll Eyes]
Seems to be a common phenomena in many places. You can see the same among people who think that a light skinned Egyptian statue is a fake because it does not fit their picture of how ancient Egyptians looked like. Or one hear complaints about studies like the Abusir study which did not show the result that some people wished. And you can hear it among people who are not Egyptians or have any direct association to Egypt.
When it comes to Ötzi, when he was discovered there was some bickering between Italy and Austria about which country should have the right to own his remains (he was found nearly on the border between the two countries). In the end Italy "won". These kind of finds easily turns into national symbols, or even symbols for a whole continent.
Tom Björklund is originally from Finland but speaks Swedish too. When he painted Lola, a stone age girl from Denmark reconstructed from the DNA in a "chewing gum" made of birch tar, he was accused by some to paint her too light and by others to have painted her too dark. There are always some who are not happy with these results.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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This last comment is quite telling, no where in the study, at least what the OP posted does it say a damn thing about "Africans living in Europe 5000 yrs ago"....and goes on to say Otzi had Anatolian Hunter Gatherer ancestry....So Where the f-k are they getting Africans?
I can't wait for the internet to melt down, and pearls to be clutcher from these reverse Afrocentrics who think Ancient Europeans can only be fair complexted to be considered European, everything else is "African"...lol
[/QUOTE]
quote: "I don't really understand what his skin color has to do with politics. Would they have falsified research results to conclude that there were Africans living in Europe 5000 years ago?"
Yes.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- DNA studies or new archelogical/antrhopolical finds are always more complicated than what most lay people understand or admit. In the case of the AbuSier study the complain was not that it showed stuff I did'nt want to find but the sensationalist Dog Whistling title, they used to garner media attention. As far as "Light Skinned" A. Egyptian statues, that's trivial, one can point to counless example of "Dark Skinned" statues, and the only ones I think are fake are so because of their sloppy and or unusual appearance, has nothing to do with the skin tone of said statue.
Weird how Italy/Austria are the main contenders for Otzi, yet Swedes are whining about some supposed "Agenda" which has nothing to do with them. Also Weird how Otzi is described as just "Darker" than modern Europeans w/o any context to exact complexion, he could've been olive skinned but somehow that is "Political rewriting of history", why are they so bothered, esp. when Otzi is not an ethnic ancestral Swede? Are'nt Modern Sardinians able to get darker complexions, like another poster pointed out?
Weird, its almost like they expect an ancient Europeans to only have their complexion, almost like Aforcentrists with A. Egyptians.
weird....
About Ötzi, there are just a few Internet warriors who actually care about Ötzis skin color, most Swedes could not care less.
About Egyptian statues, I did not say that you personally complain over them, but there are always these key board warriors online complainig over statues that they think are fake, over Abusir and over the different facial reconstructions which represent people like Tutankhamun or Ramses II. And many of them who complain have no association with Egypt, most do not even live on the same continent.
Many are Americans and most Americans do not descend from Egypt. It is closer between Sweden and Italy than between USA and Egypt. And even Sweden once got a sprinkle of "Anatolian" DNA when the first farmers came here about 6000 years ago. So there is a small connection.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote: I can't wait for the internet to melt down, and pearls to be clutcher from these reverse Afrocentrics who think Ancient Europeans can only be fair complexted to be considered European, everything else is "African"...lol
Seems Internet attracts many extremists, who see the world in absolutes, in white and black.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: The only interpretaion here depicting anything having to do with or resembling a "black African" was done by a European, possibly Swedish Artist.
I was also referring to white liberals – those individuals who harbor self-contempt and are overly enthusiastic about depicting prehistoric Europe as an extension of Africa, while simultaneously disregarding any notion of diversity. All of this is an attempt to impose their own narrative on us and alleviate their sense of guilt. They believe that by portraying their ancestors as having "dark skin" and looking like modern black africans, they present themselves as more impartial, post-colonial, and progressive.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: The only interpretaion here depicting anything having to do with or resembling a "black African" was done by a European, possibly Swedish Artist.
I was also referring to white liberals – those individuals who harbor self-contempt and are overly enthusiastic about depicting prehistoric Europe as an extension of Africa, while simultaneously disregarding any notion of diversity. All of this is an attempt to impose their own narrative on us and alleviate their sense of guilt. They believe that by portraying their ancestors as having "dark skin" and looking like modern black africans, they present themselves as more impartial, post-colonial, and progressive.
But they are in the sense that earlier forms of humanity came from Africa and enough time has passed,plus the environment affected their populations.
Posts: 1123 | From: New York | Registered: Feb 2016
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posted
Most people are tribal/have a tribal mindeset and want to see themselves as belonging to an important and or significant ancestry.
Many Europeans see themselves and their features/Tribe as representing the true European, their type have always existed in Europe and their ancestors were the same as them, or very close in appearance.Any thing saying other wise is "Afrocentrism" or "Woke" or a "Political Agenda" I'd wager this is the thinking most Europeans have be they Swedes or whatever. Ive seen many examples of this kind of thinking on European/Nordist Websites and communities, hell many even deny OOA outright. People just only care when Afrocentrists do it.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
quote: I can't wait for the internet to melt down, and pearls to be clutcher from these reverse Afrocentrics who think Ancient Europeans can only be fair complexted to be considered European, everything else is "African"...lol
Seems Internet attracts many extremists, who see the world in absolutes, in white and black.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Truth is no one really knows 100% what the OOA ancestral populations looked like by the time they reached Europe, all reconstructions are fantasy art. Pretending that its a bunch of "white liberals"(WTF) depicting OOA Populations as "Africans" is nothing but conspiritorial babble, none of those populations were "Europeans" or "Africans" to begin with, the were AMH who were migrating across lands and adapting to their enviroments. Showing images of modern Europeans with tan skin and pretending that Ancestral OOA populations looked 100% like that is just as wishful thinking as "White Liberals" depicting them with dark skin.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: The only interpretaion here depicting anything having to do with or resembling a "black African" was done by a European, possibly Swedish Artist.
I was also referring to white liberals – those individuals who harbor self-contempt and are overly enthusiastic about depicting prehistoric Europe as an extension of Africa, while simultaneously disregarding any notion of diversity. All of this is an attempt to impose their own narrative on us and alleviate their sense of guilt. They believe that by portraying their ancestors as having "dark skin" and looking like modern black africans, they present themselves as more impartial, post-colonial, and progressive.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
BTW Tom Bjorkind's art depicts people with various ranges of skin tones from light to dark brown to pale/blond, he's also one of the few to depict ancient Europeans as dark, you can go on Pintrest, type in his name and get similar art and most art is, like 80-90% resembles Modern Luekoderm Europens, or a light brown/beige complexion...
Maybe in documentaries/Video are all the "White Liberal" depictions...? I know there was one called Planet Neaderthal or something like that about AMH who migrated to Europe and they confronted Neanderthals and the actors were Africans or the AMH, and Pale Ginger Europeans for Neanderthal..It was a few years ago though, and even though I rolled my eyes at the AMH being straight up Africans it was a really good documentary..
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QB] Truth is no one really knows 100% what the OOA ancestral populations looked like by the time they reached Europe, all reconstructions are fantasy art. Pretending that its a bunch of "white liberals"(WTF) depicting OOA Populations as "Africans" is nothing but conspiritorial babble, none of those populations were "Europeans" or "Africans" to begin with, the were AMH who were migrating across lands and adapting to their enviroments. Showing images of modern Europeans with tan skin and pretending that Ancestral OOA populations looked 100% like that is just as wishful thinking as "White Liberals" depicting them with dark skin.
What connection does this individual from the Neolithic era have with OOAs? Do you realize that, chronologically, he's more proximate to you than those early Eurasians ? Are you aware that he's genetically similar to modern sardinians ? He would have looked like those people albeit with a darker tone and that's about it. All attempts to make him look like modern black africans are clearly politically motivated and not backed up by the data.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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posted
He would have looked like those people albeit with a darker tone and that's about it.
That's BS, unless there was skeleton remains showing a uninterrupted phenotype between ancient Sardinian and modern Sardinians then there would be natural variation due to environment/lifestyle. Also,Otzi being darker than modern Sardinians means,in that aspect the modern and ancient people didn't look the same.🙄🙄🙄🙄
Posts: 1123 | From: New York | Registered: Feb 2016
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What are you even babbling about? Where did I say that he was not genetically related to Sardinians or that he looked like a black African, actually where are all these supposed depictions of Otzi as a "black African", where else other than from you and supremist paranoid Swedes is anyone equating Otzi and Africans? Fact is you don't know WTF Otzi looked like 100%, nor does anyone else. You all are the only ones making claims not backed up by data and making political statements.
Mad over nothing..
F-king joke man
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QB] Truth is no one really knows 100% what the OOA ancestral populations looked like by the time they reached Europe, all reconstructions are fantasy art. Pretending that its a bunch of "white liberals"(WTF) depicting OOA Populations as "Africans" is nothing but conspiritorial babble, none of those populations were "Europeans" or "Africans" to begin with, the were AMH who were migrating across lands and adapting to their enviroments. Showing images of modern Europeans with tan skin and pretending that Ancestral OOA populations looked 100% like that is just as wishful thinking as "White Liberals" depicting them with dark skin.
What connection does this individual from the Neolithic era have with OOAs? Do you realize that, chronologically, he's more proximate to you than those early Eurasians ? Are you aware that he's genetically similar to modern sardinians ? He would have looked like those people albeit with a darker tone and that's about it. All attempts to make him look like modern black africans are clearly politically motivated and not backed up by the data.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Seems the debate about the "new" Ötzi already got heated on social media. Here is a poster on Twitter who questions Tom Björklunds interpretation
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QB] What are you even babbling about? Where did I say that he was not genetically related to Sardinians or that he looked like a black African, actually where are all these supposed depictions of Otzi as a "black African", where else other than from you and supremist paranoid Swedes is anyone equating Otzi and Africans? Fact is you don't know WTF Otzi looked like 100%, nor does anyone else. You all are the only ones making claims not backed up by data and making political statements.
Mad over nothing..
F-king joke man
What should I deduce from the mention of OOAs, followed by the statement "we don't know how he would have looked like" ? With his DNA and skeleton available, what further evidence do you need ? The likelihood of his appearance being similar to that of Black Africans is as improbable as it is for East Asians, Indians, or any other group. The modern Sardinian population stands as the closest match to his features and DNA.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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posted
Bruh I swear to god you argue just to argue, even in situations where there is no argument,
I said OOA BY THE TIME THEY REACHED EUROPE...like How in the hell are you getting that equates them with f-king looking like Africans...
Are you Ok..? Do you need help?
and like I said you, me, no one on planet earth today knows WTF they looked like 100%, everyone making claims on how they looked is talking out their arse, and making political statements..
Jesus Christ bro..
f-k
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QB] What are you even babbling about? Where did I say that he was not genetically related to Sardinians or that he looked like a black African, actually where are all these supposed depictions of Otzi as a "black African", where else other than from you and supremist paranoid Swedes is anyone equating Otzi and Africans? Fact is you don't know WTF Otzi looked like 100%, nor does anyone else. You all are the only ones making claims not backed up by data and making political statements.
Mad over nothing..
F-king joke man
What should I deduce from the mention of OOAs, followed by the statement "we don't know how he would have looked like" ? With his DNA and skeleton available, what further evidence do you need ? The likelihood of his appearance being similar to that of Black Africans is as improbable as it is for East Asians, Indians, or any other group. The modern Sardinian population stands as the closest match to his features and DNA.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: An artistic reconstruction by Tom Bjorklund:
Is it correct to call this a reconstruction and does Tom Bjorklund call it a reconstruction?
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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LMAO, this is quite telling, so upset because Otzi is darker than modern Europeans..lol
Yup only Afrocentrists and A.Americans care about claiming ancient cultures based on skin color
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Seems the debate about the "new" Ötzi already got heated on social media. Here is a poster on Twitter who questions Tom Björklunds interpretation
posted
Just as a curiosity, Clyde Winters once referred to Ötzi as a "negro".
Here is the thread
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Stop showing these fake reconstructions. Otzi was melanated brown skined like other negroes. Not a pale white like the fake picture you posted.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QB] LMAO, this is quite telling, so upset because Otzi is darker than modern Europeans..lol
Yup only Afrocentrists and A.Americans care about claiming ancient cultures based on skin color
They are upset because, as I mentioned earlier, "darker-skinned" is often mistakenly associated with resembling Black Africans. Of course many european and black individuals exploit this misconception to further their own political agendas.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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posted
Damn why'd you have to mention him, now he's probably gonna pollute the thread with his B.S gobbledegook theories...
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Just as a curiosity, Clyde Winters once referred to Ötzi as a "negro".
Here is the thread
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Stop showing these fake reconstructions. Otzi was melanated brown skined like other negroes. Not a pale white like the fake picture you posted.
posted
FWIW, as much as I like Björklund's reconstruction, a bronze "Mediterranean" complexion for Otzi and other EEF peoples seems at least as probable to me. That said, it is funny to see these anthro-bros whine about Otzi getting "blackwashed" or "Africanized" just because some artists reconstructed him with skin darker than a certain preferred threshold. Goes to confirm a point Elmaestro has made about how important "lookership" (i.e. perceived resemblance to "Black people") is to these types.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Damn why'd you have to mention him, now he's probably gonna pollute the thread with his B.S gobbledegook theories...
Ooh, my mistake, hopefully he will not see this thread
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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posted
Literally no one is saying he looks like a black African, not is any mainstream artwork either, even Tom Bjorkund, the only one who has, looks nothing like a "Black African". 99% of the art on Otzi has him a a pale man.
So basically the only people making political statements about Otzi are the people upset about the DNA study claiming Otzi had dark skin, which they equate as meaning he was an African...
lol, you can't make this stuff up...
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QB] LMAO, this is quite telling, so upset because Otzi is darker than modern Europeans..lol
Yup only Afrocentrists and A.Americans care about claiming ancient cultures based on skin color
They are upset because, as I mentioned earlier, "darker-skinned" is often mistakenly associated with resembling Black Africans. Of course many european and black individuals exploit this misconception to further their own political agendas.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Yeah Maestro was def. onto something, literally the study says "Dark Skinned" and these people lose their minds, going as far as to say the Data was falsified to represent "Africans in Europe 5,000 yes ago" which the study clearly did not say , yet they pulled "Africans" out of "Dark Skinned" Anatolian Farmers...like wow...
lol, wow Maestro was 100% onto somethig
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: Goes to confirm a point Elmaestro has made about how important "lookership" (i.e. perceived resemblance to "Black people") is to these types.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QB] Literally no one is saying he looks like a black African, not is any mainstream artwork either, even Tom Bjorkund, the only one who has, looks nothing like a "Black African". 99% of the art on Otzi has him a a pale man.
So basically the only people making political statements about Otzi are the people upset about the DNA study claiming Otzi had dark skin, which they equate as meaning he was an African...
lol, you can't make this stuff up...
Literally no one brought the DNA paper...they're only upset by the artistic depiction. And why ? Because it doesn't look accurate nor similar to modern sardinians dark skinned or not.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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^^^As far as I can tell Tom Bjorkind is the only one depicting him with dark skin. Bjorkind is not an afrocentrist, he depicts ancient people with various skin tones..
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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The museum where Ötzi is housed has for the moment no plans to make a new reconstruction of him:
quote: Bolzano, 08.16.2023 Elisabeth Vallazza, director of the South Tyrol Museum of Archaeology, is cautious in interpreting the results: “In addition to determining some hereditary genetic traits, the current study also opens the discussion on Ötzi's probable appearance. I am delighted that, in the future, new research can help us develop an even more realistic picture of this individual who lived over 5,000 years ago."
Finally, referring to the reconstruction in the museum, she specifies: "The well-known museum reproduction of 2011, created by paleoartists Adrie and Alfons Kennis on the basis of research of the time, is an attempt at interpretation, an idea of how we could imagine the 'Iceman during his lifetime. The main goal was to demonstrate that he was a modern, middle-aged, tattooed, wiry, weathered guy, just like you and me. At the moment, a new reconstruction is not planned."
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^As far as I can tell Tom Bjorkind is the only one depicting him with dark skin. Bjorkind is not an afrocentrist, he depicts ancient people with various skin tones..
Yes but Tom Bjorkind seems to equate dark skin with black african that's what I'm trying to make you understand.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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It's not even that Tom's reconstruction looks particularly "African" other than his skin color. IMO, the subject could pass for modern South Asian with no less difficulty than any African ethnicity.
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Very interesting comment. They say he retained a more or less pristine EEF-like genome, compared to the contemporary samples. This could mean he comes from a population lacking the post-EEF increase of the SLC45A2 gene, which was spreading in Europe when he was alive.
Not sure what the controversy is about because Mathieson et al 2015 already provided the above rough outline of where things stand, as far as the piecemeal spread of light skin pigmentation in ancient Europe.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Two versions of Ötzi, the left one made by palaeontological artists Alfons and Adrie Kennis and the right one by paleoartist Tom Björklund.
In addition to different skin colors the facial features are also different in the two interpretations.
How did each of these artists estimate the facial features? why are they not the same?
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Not sure what the controversy is about because Mathieson et al 2015 already provided the above rough outline of where things stand, as far as the piecemeal spread of light skin pigmentation in ancient Europe.
You should know why. Certain people in the anthropology fandom just don't want to think too hard about how someone with the derived allele for SLC24A5 but not SLC45A2 (e.g. early EEF, and maybe their ANF forerunners) might actually look.
quote:In modern European populations, the Sardinians have the lowest fraction of the derived SLC45A2 SNP that I’ve seen, around 60%, with mainland Spaniards being at 80%, the rest of Southern Europe at 90%, and 95% in Northern Europe. The Bell Beakers look to be in the low 60% range.
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