Dana Reynolds Marniche "the ancient Berbers and descriptions of Romans, Greeks and Arabs. Who actually prove that Berbers are paternally Blacks, and have a maternal white slave, greek, Sea People,Roman, Arab, Turk origin."
Fatma Badredine, 94, an Amazigh woman from the Chaouia region, shows off her facial tattoos (Reuters)
Partridge eyes and stars: Traditional tattoos of Amazigh, Bedouin and Kurdish women Rooted in custom and pre-Islamic spiritualism, communities across North Africa and the Middle East have been practising tattooing for centuries
I haven't studied this topic. Did you notice this yourself, this apparent similarity? or has someone already remarked on this?
Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: I haven't studied this topic. Did you notice this yourself, this apparent similarity? or has someone already remarked on this?
Nope, I noticed it myself.. did you read the article?
Kurdish Deq tatoos
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
women from South eastern Turkey, seem to be Kurdish
Chaouia people of the Aures mountains, Algeria,
Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
The Ouled Naïl are an Arab tribe and a tribal confederation living in the Ouled Naïl Range, Algeria. They are found mainly in Bou Saâda, M'Sila and Djelfa, but there is also a significant number of them in Ghardaïa.
The oral lore of the Ouled Naïl people claims ancient Arab descent from tribes that arrived in the area about a thousand years ago. Some traditions trace their ancestry to the Banu Hilal of Hejaz, who came to the highlands through El Oued, Ghardaia,[1] while others claim that they are direct descendants of Idris I.
The Ait Atta (Tamazight: ⴰⵢⵜ ⵄⵟⵟⴰ) are a large Berber tribal confederation of South eastern Morocco, estimated to number about 130,000 as of 1960. They are divided into "five fifths" (khams khmas), all said to descend from the forty sons of their common ancestor Dadda Atta: these "fifths" are the Ait Ouallal, Ait Ouahlim, Ait Isfoul, Ait Yazza and Ait Ounbgi. They speak Central Atlas Tamazight. ("Aït" has the meaning of "people of" in the Tamazight language).
Described as Berber but are they?
Forefather In Arabic, 'Aṭā (عطا) is a name meaning "Gift". It also appears in Persian (عطا). In Turkish, Ata is a masculine given name meaning "Forefather".
lntertribal Conflicts and Customary Law Regimes in North Africa: A Comparison of Haratine and Ait 'Atta Indigenous Legal Systems
It seems they moved into the atlas and exploited the indigenous Haratians..
can you quote the text to the effect "they moved into the Atlas" please thanks
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: The Ait Atta (Tamazight: ⴰⵢⵜ ⵄⵟⵟⴰ) are a large Berber tribal confederation of South eastern Morocco, estimated to number about 130,000 as of 1960. They are divided into "five fifths" (khams khmas), all said to descend from the forty sons of their common ancestor Dadda Atta: these "fifths" are the Ait Ouallal, Ait Ouahlim, Ait Isfoul, Ait Yazza and Ait Ounbgi. They speak Central Atlas Tamazight. ("Aït" has the meaning of "people of" in the Tamazight language).
Described as Berber but are they?
Forefather In Arabic, 'Aṭā (عطا) is a name meaning "Gift". It also appears in Persian (عطا). In Turkish, Ata is a masculine given name meaning "Forefather".
lntertribal Conflicts and Customary Law Regimes in North Africa: A Comparison of Haratine and Ait 'Atta Indigenous Legal Systems
quote: "The strong religious reaction in the Maghrib to Christian colonial intrusion enabled the Saʿdī dynasty of sharifs to capture power in Morocco in 1549 and paved the way for Ottoman rule to be established later in the rest of the Maghrib." [...] "The Saʿdīs consolidated their rule in Morocco thereafter and, by later defending the territory against Ottoman expansion from Algeria, gave it a national identity distinct from the rest of the Maghrib." […] "With this force at his command, al-Manṣūr imposed his will on the whole country, besides defending it against the Ottoman Empire and, in 1591, conquering the West African state of Songhai (present-day Mali). However, conflict for power after his death divided the country into several principalities that lasted until they were reunited through another sharifian family, that of the ʿAlawites." […] "Algeria was the first country of the Maghrib to be ruled by the Ottoman Empire. Administered at first by governors sent from Istanbul, the Ottoman regency of Algiers was transformed into a sort of military republic when the troops stationed there rebelled against the Ottoman governor in 1689 and installed one of their officers as ruler, giving him the title of dey (maternal uncle)."
Thanks.. it is interesting, that online you see tons of pics of "berbers" without context.
Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
quote:The tribe does not appear to have played any significant role in the early Muslim conquests, and for the most part remained in the Nejd. Only in the early 8th century did some of the Hilal (and the Banu Sulaym) move to Egypt. Many followed, so that the two groups became numerous in Egypt . During the Abbasid Caliphate, the Hilal were known for their unruliness
The Banu Hilal ( Arabic : or Hilalians
were a confederation of Arab Bedouin tribes originating in the Hejaz of western Arabia , who emigrated to Upper Egypt in the 11th century .In the same century, they were sent by the Fatimid Caliphate to fight the Berber dynasty of the Zirids for abandoning Shiism . . Other authors suggest that the Banu Hilal left the Upper Nile grasslands due to the environmental degradation that accompanied the medieval warm period .
The Banu Hilal quickly defeated the Zirids and significantly weakened their neighboring Hamadids . Its establishment in the Maghreb was decisive in the linguistic, cultural and ethnic Arabization of the region and in the expansion of nomadism in areas that until then had been essentially agricultural. Ibn Khaldun reports that the lands devastated by the Hilalian invaders became barren deserts
[QUOTE]The Ouled Naïl people claims ancient Arab descent from tribes that arrived to the area about a thousand years ago. Some traditions trace the ancestry to the Banu Hilal of Hejaz who came to the highlands through El Oued, Ghardaia, while others claim that they are direct descendants of Idris I.
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
ait atta are a moroccan tribe not algerian (ottomans never ruled over morocco) and people with ottoman ancestors in NW africa are recognizable by their family names and in general come from urban areas not really from a desertic mountainous place like the jbel sagho.
Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
quote:To the Editor:
In a recent publication, Bosch et al. (2001) reported on Y-chromosome variation in populations from northwestern (NW) Africa and the Iberian peninsula. They observed a high degree of genetic homogeneity among the NW African Y chromosomes of Moroccan Arabs, Moroccan Berbers, and Saharawis, leading the authors to hypothesize that “the Arabization and Islamization of NW Africa, starting during the 7th century ad, … [were] cultural phenomena without extensive genetic replacement” (p. 1023). H71 (Eu10) was found to be the second-most-frequent haplogroup in that area. Following the hypothesis of Semino et al. (2000), the authors suggested that this haplogroup had spread out from the Middle East with the Neolithic wave of advance. Our recent findings (Nebel et al. 2000, 2001), however, suggest that the majority of Eu10 chromosomes in NW Africa are due to recent gene flow caused by the migration of Arabian tribes in the first millennium of the Common Era (ce).
quote:The highest frequency of Eu10 (30%–62.5%) has been observed so far in various Moslem Arab populations in the Middle East (Semino et al. 2000; Nebel et al. 2001). The most frequent Eu10 microsatellite haplotype in NW Africans is identical to a modal haplotype (DYS19-14, DYS388-17, DYS390-23, DYS391-11, DYS392-11, DYS393-12) of Moslem Arabs who live in a small area in the north of Israel, the Galilee (Nebel et al. 2000). This haplotype, which is present in the Galilee at 18.5%, was termed the modal haplotype of the Galilee (MH Galilee) (Nebel et al. 2000). Notably, it is absent from two distinct non-Arab Middle Eastern populations, Jews and Muslim Kurds, both of whom have significant Eu10 frequencies—18% and 12%, respectively (Nebel et al. 2001). Interestingly, this modal haplotype is also the most frequent haplotype (11 [∼41%] of 27 individuals) in the population from the town of Sena, in Yemen (Thomas et al. 2000). Its single-step neighbor is the most common haplotype of the Yemeni Hadramaut sample (5 [∼10%] of 49 chromosomes; Thomas et al. 2000). The presence of this particular modal haplotype at a significant frequency in three separate geographic locales (NW Africa, the Southern Levant, and Yemen) makes independent genetic-drift events unlikely.
Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: ait atta are a moroccan tribe not algerian (ottomans never ruled over morocco) and people with ottoman ancestors in NW africa are recognizable by their family names and in general come from urban areas not really from a desertic mountainous place like the jbel sagho.
quote:In 1554 an Ottoman army managed to conquer Fez and install Abu Hassun on the throne as an Ottoman vassal, which lasted around 9 months, the Wattasids had previously declared themselves as vassals of the Ottomans by formally recognising the authority of the Ottoman sultan in 1545, however they were defeated and lost Fez to the Saadians in 1549. In 1576 an Ottoman army of no more than 10,000 men commanded by Abd al-Malik and Ramazan Pasha, defeated a Saadi force of 30,000 men, conquered Fez, took Marrakech and installed Abd al-Malik on the throne of Morocco as an Ottoman vassal. From 1792–1795 the Ottomans of Algiers had possession of the Moroccan Rif and Oujda, which they abandoned after 3 years in 1795 and then was recaptured by the Moroccans. In eastern Morocco, specifically in Oujda, the Regency of Algiers reigned there longer than 100 years.
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey:
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: ait atta are a moroccan tribe not algerian (ottomans never ruled over morocco) and people with ottoman ancestors in NW africa are recognizable by their family names and in general come from urban areas not really from a desertic mountainous place like the jbel sagho.
quote:In 1554 an Ottoman army managed to conquer Fez and install Abu Hassun on the throne as an Ottoman vassal, which lasted around 9 months, the Wattasids had previously declared themselves as vassals of the Ottomans by formally recognising the authority of the Ottoman sultan in 1545, however they were defeated and lost Fez to the Saadians in 1549. In 1576 an Ottoman army of no more than 10,000 men commanded by Abd al-Malik and Ramazan Pasha, defeated a Saadi force of 30,000 men, conquered Fez, took Marrakech and installed Abd al-Malik on the throne of Morocco as an Ottoman vassal. From 1792–1795 the Ottomans of Algiers had possession of the Moroccan Rif and Oujda, which they abandoned after 3 years in 1795 and then was recaptured by the Moroccans. In eastern Morocco, specifically in Oujda, the Regency of Algiers reigned there longer than 100 years.
yes a few months and vassal for 3 years but that's it Ottomans never ruled over the entire country for a long period like in algeria or tunisia and got defeated by moroccans like at the battle of oued leben.
Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
Alright, 2 Groups of Arabs...
quote:the term “Arab,” as well as the presence of Arabs in the Syrian desert and the Fertile Crescent, is first seen in the Assyrian sources from the 9th century BCE(Eph’al1984). Originally referring to nomads of central and northern Arabia, the term “Arabs” later came to include the sedentary population of the south, which had its own language and culture. The term thus covers two different stocks that became linguistically and culturally unified yet retained consciousness of their discrete origins(Grohmann et al. 1960; Rentz 1960; Caskel 1966, pp.19–47; Goldziher 1967, pp. 45–97, 164–190;
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: Alright, 2 Groups of Arabs...
quote:the term “Arab,” as well as the presence of Arabs in the Syrian desert and the Fertile Crescent, is first seen in the Assyrian sources from the 9th century BCE(Eph’al1984). Originally referring to nomads of central and northern Arabia, the term “Arabs” later came to include the sedentary population of the south, which had its own language and culture. The term thus covers two different stocks that became linguistically and culturally unified yet retained consciousness of their discrete origins(Grohmann et al. 1960; Rentz 1960; Caskel 1966, pp.19–47; Goldziher 1967, pp. 45–97, 164–190;
I already made a thread about arab ancestry in NW Africa here
The only true arabs or north africans of predominantely arab ancestry are found in southern tunisia and Eastern libya
Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: Alright, 2 Groups of Arabs...
quote:the term “Arab,” as well as the presence of Arabs in the Syrian desert and the Fertile Crescent, is first seen in the Assyrian sources from the 9th century BCE(Eph’al1984). Originally referring to nomads of central and northern Arabia, the term “Arabs” later came to include the sedentary population of the south, which had its own language and culture. The term thus covers two different stocks that became linguistically and culturally unified yet retained consciousness of their discrete origins(Grohmann et al. 1960; Rentz 1960; Caskel 1966, pp.19–47; Goldziher 1967, pp. 45–97, 164–190;
I already made a thread about arab ancestry in NW Africa here
The only true arabs or north africans of predominantely arab ancestry are found in southern tunisia and Eastern libya
quote:Abu Zayd al-Hilali led between 150,000 and 300,000 Arabs into the Maghreb, who assimilated and intermarried with the indigenous peoples . The Fatimids used the tribe, which began their journey as allies and vassals, to punish the particularly difficult to control Zirids after the conquest of Egypt and the founding of Cairo. As the dynasty became increasingly independent and abandoned Shia Islam, they quickly defeated the Zirids and deeply weakened the neighboring Hammadid dynasty and the Zenata. Their influx was a major factor in the linguistic, cultural Arabization of the Maghreb and in the spread of nomadism in areas where agriculture had previously been dominant.[6] Ibn Khaldun noted that the lands ravaged by Banu Hilal invaders had become completely arid desert.[7]
The Banu Hilal later came under the rule of various subsequent Berber dynasties, including the Almohad Caliphate, Hafsid dynasty, Zayyanid dynasty and Marinid dynasty. Finding their continued presence intolerable, the Almohad Caliphate defeated the Banu Hilal in the Battle of Setif and forced many of them to leave Tunisia and settle in Morocco. Upon the arrival of the Turks, the Banu Hilal rose against the Ottoman Empire in the Aurès region and south Algeria.
quote:These documented historical events, together with the finding of a particular Eu10 haplotype in Yemenis, Pal-estinians, and NW Africans, are suggestive of a recentc ommon origin of these chromosomes. Remarkably, theonly non-Arabs in whom this haplotype has been ob-served to date are the Berbers (Bosch et al. 2001). It appears that the Eu10 chromosome pool in NW Africais derived not only from early Neolithic dispersions but also from recent expansions from the Arabian peninsula .
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey:
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: Alright, 2 Groups of Arabs...
quote:the term “Arab,” as well as the presence of Arabs in the Syrian desert and the Fertile Crescent, is first seen in the Assyrian sources from the 9th century BCE(Eph’al1984). Originally referring to nomads of central and northern Arabia, the term “Arabs” later came to include the sedentary population of the south, which had its own language and culture. The term thus covers two different stocks that became linguistically and culturally unified yet retained consciousness of their discrete origins(Grohmann et al. 1960; Rentz 1960; Caskel 1966, pp.19–47; Goldziher 1967, pp. 45–97, 164–190;
I already made a thread about arab ancestry in NW Africa here
The only true arabs or north africans of predominantely arab ancestry are found in southern tunisia and Eastern libya
quote:Abu Zayd al-Hilali led between 150,000 and 300,000 Arabs into the Maghreb, who assimilated and intermarried with the indigenous peoples . The Fatimids used the tribe, which began their journey as allies and vassals, to punish the particularly difficult to control Zirids after the conquest of Egypt and the founding of Cairo. As the dynasty became increasingly independent and abandoned Shia Islam, they quickly defeated the Zirids and deeply weakened the neighboring Hammadid dynasty and the Zenata. Their influx was a major factor in the linguistic, cultural Arabization of the Maghreb and in the spread of nomadism in areas where agriculture had previously been dominant.[6] Ibn Khaldun noted that the lands ravaged by Banu Hilal invaders had become completely arid desert.[7]
The Banu Hilal later came under the rule of various subsequent Berber dynasties, including the Almohad Caliphate, Hafsid dynasty, Zayyanid dynasty and Marinid dynasty. Finding their continued presence intolerable, the Almohad Caliphate defeated the Banu Hilal in the Battle of Setif and forced many of them to leave Tunisia and settle in Morocco. Upon the arrival of the Turks, the Banu Hilal rose against the Ottoman Empire in the Aurès region and south Algeria.
As you can see in my thread, there are no substantial arab influence in North-West Africa despite the hilalian invasion and yes these hilalians got defeated by the berber almohads who also used them later as cannon fodder in Al Andalus. Many people who descend from these hilalian tribes have tested their dna and the arab influence is weak so let alone the rest of the population.
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
Also 150k arabs is nothing compared to this :
quote:Mass Arab enslavement of Black Africans began in the seventh century, soon after the founding of Islam and the beginning of Arab-Islamic civilisation. It lasted at least until the early part of the twentieth century. Roughly 4,820,000 Black Africans were taken into slavery in North Africa between 650 and 1600 AD alone (Harich et al. 2010). Approximately 14 million Blacks were wrenched from their homeland s and forced into slavery in the Muslim World as a whole from the seventh to twentieth century (Harich et al. 2010).
Map of the languages of Morocco . The two large groups can be distinguished: Berbers (in orange) and Arabs (in gray). The imazighen, misnamed Berbers (from "barbarians"), have their origin in the ancient Libyan peoples of North Africa , from the Canary Islands to the oasis of Siwa ( Isiwan in tamaziɣt ), in Egypt .
The first mention of the Libyan people was by the Greek historian Herodotus in the 5th century BC and he describes them as a multicultural group, with nomadic and sedentary subgroups. The Libyan language and culture seemed to create a certain unity between these peoples, but we can identify two subgroups in the ancient Libyan populations:
A first subgroup rather poorly identified and located by the ancient authors, who have different names: Nasamones , nigritos , atlases , troglodytes , [ Note 1 ] bacuatas , babaros , suburbures , musulamis , Gaetulians , [ Note 2 ] garamantes , austures . ..etc.
[QUOTE] A second set that includes the Moors and Numidians , the latter divided into Masilio and Masilio ./QUOTE]
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: [QUOTE]Imazighen
Map of the languages of Morocco . The two large groups can be distinguished: Berbers (in orange) and Arabs (in gray). The imazighen, misnamed Berbers (from "barbarians"), have their origin in the ancient Libyan peoples of North Africa , from the Canary Islands to the oasis of Siwa ( Isiwan in tamaziɣt ), in Egypt .
The first mention of the Libyan people was by the Greek historian Herodotus in the 5th century BC and he describes them as a multicultural group, with nomadic and sedentary subgroups. The Libyan language and culture seemed to create a certain unity between these peoples, but we can identify two subgroups in the ancient Libyan populations:
A first subgroup rather poorly identified and located by the ancient authors, who have different names: Nasamones , nigritos , atlases , troglodytes , [ Note 1 ] bacuatas , babaros , suburbures , musulamis , Gaetulians , [ Note 2 ] garamantes , austures . ..etc.
quote: A second set that includes the Moors and Numidians , the latter divided into Masilio and Masilio ./QUOTE]
Masilio ? You probably mean Massyles and Massaesyles. Yes these were two berber confederations during the time of the punic wars; the former being located next to carthage's territory while Massaesyles were located in west/central algeria. Moors were distinct and formed their own kingdom in what is now northern Morocco.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
@Antalas is there any significance in your opinion that certain Kurdish in Turkey and Chaouia people of the Aures in Algeria all have facial and hand tattoos?
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: @Antalas is there any significance in your opinion that certain Kurdish in Turkey and Chaouia people of the Aures in Algeria all have facial and hand tattoos?
no since traditional tattoos are found almost everywhere and this tradition among berbers is old going back at least to the bronze age
chinese woman with traditional tattoos :
indian :
and you can find such practice in many other cultures throughout the world.
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: ait atta are a moroccan tribe not algerian (ottomans never ruled over morocco) and people with ottoman ancestors in NW africa are recognizable by their family names and in general come from urban areas not really from a desertic mountainous place like the jbel sagho.
Do you mean to say they carry Turkish surnames as the only recognizable difference?
To my understanding from what I have observed certain facial traits are typical to Maghribians (or the indigenous people of the Maghrib), with old archaic African traits as well.
I remember this woman. She carried these strong typical Maghribian traits.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: with old archaic African traits as well. [/QB]
what traits?
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: with old archaic African traits as well.
quote:This town draws many of its traditions from the Chaouia, an indigenous group that has historically inhabited the Aurés mountain region. Yet, something unique about this region is that Arabs and Chaouia have not only lived together, but also shared their cultural practices. One such practice is traditional tattooing, found on the faces of elderly women.
While many Chaouia women received tattoos from gypsies coming from Tunisia, some symbols found among the Chaouia tattoos are uncannily similar to those recorded among Arabs in Iraq. And although most women consider their tattoos symbols of beauty and good health, these tattoos may also have another meaning that has been lost over time—they might be telling a story.
quote:It is also possible that the tattooing tradition originated in a place much farther than the Sahara or Tunisia: It might have come from Iraq. Although facial tattooing practices have been recorded from North Africa all the way into Iran and Afghanistan, some tattoos found particularly among Arabs in Iraq show a strong correlation to tattoos found among the Chaouia in Algeria.
Anthropologist Winifred Smeaton was part of the 1932-1935 Field Museum anthropological expedition to Iraq. A drawing by Smeaton of Iraqi hand tattoos shows a shape made of a line with two curves at each end that is remarkably similar to the Amazigh (Berber) symbol. Amazigh refers to the indigenous peoples of North Africa, including the Chaouia. The similarities in the tattoo shape must be more than coincidence—the only difference is a horizontal line in the middle of the Iraqi tattoo. A scissor-like symbol recorded by Smeaton, was also found on Gaima's cheek.
quote:Similarly, in the Aurés, tattoos were used for health and healing purposes. Some were applied to the place of pain or injury; others were made to promote fertility and children's health. Both men and women in the Aurés mountain region also believed that tattoos were markers of beauty. One elderly man claimed that in his time men did not care to look at women without tattoos. Others said that a woman without tattoos was like a man.
Smeaton recognized a similar cultural characteristic in Iraq, writing, "The husband of one Albu Muhammad woman stated that his tribeswomen tattoo extensively because the men like it, and refuse to marry a girl who is not tattooed."
Any influence from Iraq may have been brought to Algeria by the Ottomans in the early 1500s. This would have allowed time for variation to develop or for the Iraqi tattoos to influence a tattooing culture that may have already been in place.
In Iraq tattoos are also blue in color, with kohl as a popular coloring agent, and the symbol of the sun is also placed on the cheek
I get what you are saying, very similar to this young lady
Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
What about forehead shape? Is low,wide or medium width? And when viewed in profile is the forehead rounded, vertical, sloping or steep?
Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
I should have added "Greek?" to the title of this thread
Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
( In my opinion, this type of make up used by SOME berber amazigh women in the high atlas seems to be really specific to some of the Ait Haddidou and other similar tribes)
quote:As I discuss in this article I wrote back in September 2020 about why it is not accurate to describe ancient Greece and Rome as “white civilizations,” the ancient Greeks generally associated pale skin with femininity and darker skin with masculinity. The reason for this is because Greek women were generally expected to remain indoors and remain pale, while Greek men were generally expected to work outside in the sun and become tanned. In ancient Greek art, women are usually depicted as very pale, while men are usually portrayed as darker-complexioned.
The reason why ancient Greek women sometimes powdered their faces with white lead, then, is because they wanted to make themselves look paler and therefore more feminine.
quote:ABOVE: Photograph from Wikimedia Commons of a sample of lead carbonate, commonly known as “white lead,” which ancient Greek women often used to make their faces appear paler
quote:Use of alkanet dye to make the cheeks appear rosier
Another extremely common makeup used in ancient Greece appears to have been ἔγχουσα (énchousa), a kind of red dye extracted from the roots of the plant Alkanna tinctoria, or dyer’s alkanet. Women used this dye to paint their cheeks to make them appear rosier.
quote:Detail of a Lucanian fresco from a Greek tomb at Paestum in southern Italy dating to sometime around 340 BCE or thereabouts, depicting a deceased woman going to the Underworld, possibly wearing rouge, now on display in the Paestum Archaeological Museum
quote:Use of eyeliner
Eyeliner and other kinds of eye makeup also existed in ancient Greece, but they seem to have been less commonly used and, in the extant sources, they are much more closely associated with prostitutes than other kinds of makeup.
quote:Euboulos’s mention of mulberry juice as rouge and eye makeup
of a red mulberry fruit in Libya
quote:The speech is not mainly focused on makeup, but it does list three kinds of makeup that Greek prostitutes would wear to make themselves appear beautiful in lines 16–18:
“Does she have fiery eyebrows? They paint them with soot. Does it happen that she is dark-complexioned? She plasters it in white lead. Is she exceedingly pale? She rubs herself with holm-oak.”
quote:Sexy unibrows?
Many sources online claim that ancient Greek women considered unibrows ideal and therefore often filled in the space between their eyebrows with charcoal to make it look as though they had a unibrow
quote: "The inhabitants of the Aegean area in the Bronze Age may have been much like many people in the Mediterranean basin today, short and slight of build with dark hair and eyes and sallow complexions. Skeletons show that the population of the Aegean was already mixed by Neolithic times, and various facial types, some with delicate features and pointed noses, others pug-nosed, almost negroid, are depicted in wall paintings from the 16th century BC. But men and women are always represented with black hair, and the presence of fair-haired people is not attested in the Aegean until later Greek times. Some very tall men buried in the Mycenaean shaft graves may be descendants of invaders who entered the mainland at the end of the 3rd millennium. A few skeletons from the single graves that appear on the mainland at the very end of the Bronze Age suggest the presence of new people from the north." --- Sinclair Hood, The Home of the Heroes: The Aegean Before the Greeks (1967) also found in Encyclopedia Britannica 1990 ed. Macropedia Article, Vol 20: Greek and Roman Civilizations ----------------------
Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Well aren't you going to add Tuareg, Fulani, Wodaabe and Peul to the list? (see Eric Laforge photos)
Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Well aren't you going to add Tuareg, Fulani, Wodaabe and Peul to the list?
Why? Are they claiming ancient north African continuity? I am just trying to learn for myself who is who... there seem to be phenotypic difference even in the people claiming to be " amazigh, berber"
Old thread
quote: alTakruri said.... "I don't see where the study shows relationship by descent as in origin. It's skewed to emphasize HLA-DRB1. What makes HLA-DRB1 so revelatory? Table 5 clearly shows that the HLA-DBR1 alleles shared by Greeks and Arnaiz-Villena's caucasoid Africans has much higher frequencies in Greeks. Off-handedly, that seemingly indicates flow from Greeks to the caucasoid Africans more so than the other way around."
How could this happen, I don't know, this is a very particular lower lip only tattoo but in both places
Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
I did not say that... but often these women are referred to as Amazigh or Berber in reports, articles, and photos etc.
This thread is a learning thread for me... so who knows what connections I will find... it's all new to me.
quote:Dana Marniche said... "A description by Gillebert d’Hercourt in Etudes Anthropologiques sur Soixante-Seize indigenes de lAlgerie in 1865 said the Kabyle crania that were studied were generally dolichocephalic. In fact the physical anthropological studies done on ancient and modern North Africans show that early North Africans were dolichocephalic like the Tuareg and other dark-skinned berber tribes.
Not surprisingly most modern Berber-speakers who are fair skinned including modern Kabyles are predominantly mesocephalic (middle headed) or even brachycephalic. It is interesting that the dress of these modern Kabyle women resembles that modern women of the Balkans and that palm and blood group types are also like those of European Mediterranean Greeks. Many of these Kabyles also have a strong Turkish influence as judged from the recognizable Turkish Eurasian or even East Asian facial features. Obviously some groups other than a Berber one makes up the main genetic strain in many modern Kabyle-speakers. Culturally the modern fair-skinned Kabyles have been documented as among the most patrifocal people in North Africa whereas the ancient and modern Berbers like the Tuareg were notably matrilineal and matrifocal to the chagrin of early Muslim documenters who considered this among their ‘wicked” customs"
Who This? Amazigh, Greek, Bedouin, Kurds ?
Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Who This? Amazigh, Greek, Bedouin, Kurds ?
Some Wodaabe & Fulani tattoos are much more similar to Afar tattoos
they aren't tattoos as much as colorized scarifications.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
I wonder if she's from Wargla/Ourgla? Where there still Israels in Tamentit or other Tuat oases at the time the photo was taken?
=-=-=-=-=
BTW While Villena-Arnaiz' solitary HLA-DRB1 allele is moot regarding genetic affiliation, I did say
quote:We know the high frequency of African derived nrY chromosomes in Greeks and that stands on solid ground for proclaiming partial African origins of Greeks. There is no doubt about that. What is in doubt is any usefulness of Fig 2 PC graph as valid support of that fact.
Since then whole genome ADMIXTURE affirms a miniscule current Fula exemplified genome present in Mykenaea
Can't really make out the face, but precision keloids, aka raised scars, on the body are as old as West African Monsoon driven Humid Period Tropical North Africa aka The Green Sahara.
"The vast bulk of the Negro Race is to be found in Africa, where it occupies the tropical belt as far north as the Sahara, and spreads up the west coast almost as far as Morocco. In fact, Negro admixture is so evident amongst the Moroccan population itself that the word 'Moor' is often used to suggest Negro influence, as we see in the name 'Blackamoor.'"
"Human History" by Grafton Elliot Smith, page 139 (1934) London : J. cape
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: "The vast bulk of the Negro Race is to be found in Africa, where it occupies the tropical belt as far north as the Sahara, and spreads up the west coast almost as far as Morocco. In fact, Negro admixture is so evident amongst the Moroccan population itself that the word 'Moor' is often used to suggest Negro influence, as we see in the name 'Blackamoor.'"
"Human History" by Grafton Elliot Smith, page 139 (1934) London : J. cape
Yes it's evident among people with recent slave ancestry. North Africans used to import massively black females and had children with them. Following the islamic law, those children were not seen as slaves and could integrate north african societies and spread such type of ancestry :
quote:However, the bulk of the trade was in females, as domestic servants, entertainers and/or concubines: two females for every male overall, in contrast to the ratio of two males for every female overall in the Atlantic trade [15]. Some harems could be enormous, reaching even the extravagating number of 14,000 concubines. Young female slaves were instructed in household crafts and were then provided with resources to buy a home and get married."
quote:Concubines were of varied complexions but mostly black, and a few were of European and Eastern origin. It was a custom for the governors of the provinces to send beautiful young women to the sultan. Dark-skinned women were more numerous because they were usually easily acquired from the local markets as a result of the continuous yearly supply from the trans-Saharan slave trade. The sultan also chose his concubines, sometimes from free women
Chouki El Hamel, Black Morocco a history of slavery, race and Islam, pp. 195
Genetically it's well attested :
quote:Comparing our results with previously reported genome-wide data, we also find evidence for a sex-biased sub-Saharan contribution to northern Africans, suggesting that historical events such as the trans-Saharan slave trade mainly contributed to the mtDNA and autosomal gene pool, whereas the northern African paternal gene pool was mainly shaped by more ancient events.
You'll often see algerians making fun of moroccans saying we look like mulattoes because we mixed too much with our slaves. When they see me they usually think I'm algerian or tunisian because for them moroccans are in average much darker.
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
Antalas, the source I referenced makes it clear that the negro influence is what constitutes the "moor" classification. In other words, without the negro influence or quality, the classification of Moor would not be applied.
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: Antalas, the source I referenced makes it clear that the negro influence is what constitutes the "moor" classification. In other words, without the negro influence or quality, the classification of Moor would not be applied.
Yes what british people considered "moor" in the 1930s maybe but Moroccans never called themselves "moor". Stop trying to larp as my people now I thought you were an israelite no ?
Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
Boy...
Some of these groups that are being classified as "amazigh berbers" are Kurdish/Turkish ancestry. As do some of the Ait tribes in the atlas
Some of the other Ait tribes have Greek origins
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
@Antalas
You just tried to blow smoke up my *ss by making up some BS about slavery and implying that slavery was the reason for the negro influence being classified as "Moor".
Just because I post information about a certain civilization, doesn't mean I'm claiming to be apart of it or that it belongs to me. You're just butthurt.
BTW, here's the scholar who wrote the book I referenced. I didn't know Austalians and Brits were american.
Tell me, was this white scholar trying to help black people LARP as Moors when he wrote this information?
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: Boy...
Some of these groups that are being classified as "amazigh berbers" are Kurdish/Turkish ancestry. As do some of the Ait tribes in the atlas
Some of the other Ait tribes have Greek origins
no comment
Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
I wonder if she's from Wargla/Ourgla? Where there still Israels in Tamentit or other Tuat oases at the time the photo was taken?
=-=-=-=-=
BTW While Villena-Arnaiz' solitary HLA-DRB1 allele is moot regarding genetic affiliation, I did say
quote:We know the high frequency of African derived nrY chromosomes in Greeks and that stands on solid ground for proclaiming partial African origins of Greeks. There is no doubt about that. What is in doubt is any usefulness of Fig 2 PC graph as valid support of that fact.
Since then whole genome ADMIXTURE affirms a miniscule current Fula exemplified genome present in Mykenaea
quote:Author(s): Aomar Boum Todgha is a river valley on the southern slopes of the High Atlas Mountains of Morocco. Until the early 1960s, a significant Jewish population lived in three hamlets in this region: Tinghir (the most recently established), Taourirt, and Asfalou. The Jewish communities of Todgha were among the oldest on the southern fringes of the Atlas. The arrival of Jews in the area seems to have been connected to the nearby silver mines of Jebel Saghro. The Todgha mines were known since the end of the eighth and the mid-ninth centuries, and Jews were jewelers and minters of coins in the region.
You just tried to blow smoke up my *ss by making up some BS about slavery and implying that slavery was the reason for the negro influence being classified as "Moor".
Just because I post information about a certain civilization, doesn't mean I'm claiming to be apart of it or that it belongs to me. You're just butthurt.
BTW, here's the scholar who wrote the book I referenced. I didn't know Austalians and Brits were american.
Tell me, was this white scholar trying to help black people LARP as Moors when he wrote this information?
??? I don't care about what 1930s british scholars used to think I'm telling you that evident ssa traits shows up among moroccans with recent black ancestry.
Also why are all your sources from such old periods ? Weren't these whites racist and biased back then ? Seems you enjoy pseudo-science if I had to highlight all the bs they used to write about my people...XD
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
Oh so he's british now? At first you said he was american.
Yes, they were most likely somewhat racist which means they had no reason to lie and falsely attribute the Moors to the black race.
Clearly, scholars knew this was the case 100+ years ago.
The source says nothing about "recent ancestry" and makes clear that the negro quality or admixture is what constitutes the Moor classification.
I always know when you're triggered about some info I post because you start responding within 30 seconds so that you can try to cover up and obfuscate the information ASAP.
You know what the deal is, and people who know real history laugh at people like you.
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
your source talk about "negro influence" he concludes moors belong to the black race XD Are you aware I have "negro" admixture myself ? Yet am I black ?
People who know real history certainly do not believe ancient israelites were black with tropically adapted bodies like yours nor believe moors belong to the "black race". You never read a single paper in your life and you think you'll teach me something ? Go back reading your XIXth century books lmao
The guy is a an AA which means mostly west african with some european ancestry and he obsessed over north african and the middle east because of his inner complexes and self hatred...pathetic.
Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
A quote from Dana Marniche Reynolds..
quote:The specialists on the Berbers know that it is today just a language that links them "'There is little doubt that the whole of North Africa spoke Berber languages at one time, while in the Middle Ages they occupied much of Spain and Sicily as well. But just as the dialects are mutually incomprehensible so the people themselves are extremely heterogeneous: the existence of an ethnically defined unified people is no more demonstrable for the past than it is today. Indeed, there are a bewildering number of cultures, economies and physical characteristics." From the book The Berbers by Brett and Fentress 1997, pp.3-4.
These "bewildering number of cultures" and physical characteristics are due to the impact of Vandals Romans, Persians, Syrians, Turks, French and Greek and Circassian men and women. Their descendants speak the Berber dialects as do the still dark skinned descendants of the early blacks known as the Berbers i.e. Masmuda or Shluh, Zanata, Nafusawa, Ghuwara/Jawara, Kitama, Sanhaja i. e. the Tuareg, Fulani and Zaghawa. Across the cities of Ottoman North AFrica were large numbers of European mercenaries, slave soldiers and slaves. This is especially the case of coastal cities like Algiers and Tripoli.
Tripoli, for example, was “occasionally reportedly crowded with large numbers of Greek slaves” (Christian Slaves Muslim Masters, R. Davis, 2003, p. 112)
"The Berber women are from the island of Barbara, which is between the west and the south. Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters… “ (Brożyna, 2005, Martha A. (2005). Gender and sexuality in the Middle Ages: a medieval source documents reader, Jefferson, NC: McFarland Publishers. p. 303).
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: [QB] "The vast bulk of the Negro Race is to be found in Africa, where it occupies the tropical belt as far north as the Sahara, and spreads up the west coast almost as far as Morocco. In fact, Negro admixture is so evident amongst the Moroccan population itself that the word 'Moor' is often used to suggest Negro influence, as we see in the name 'Blackamoor.'"
"Human History" by Grafton Elliot Smith, page 139 (1934) London : J. cape
according to Grafton Elliot Smith who were these Negroes mixing with?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey:
Some of these groups that are being classified as "amazigh berbers" are Kurdish/Turkish ancestry
what is the evidence of that?
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
the same Dana who blocked me and used photoshopped pics of my people ...afrocentrists using afrocentrist sources to back up their claims smh.
Also we have hundreds of genetic papers about berbers there are no evidence of "vandal" "circassian" "syrian" etc ancestry wtf is she talking about ? She's trying to do all she can to erase us and claim our history and ancestors.
Look at antalas repeatedly ignore the fact that the source says the negro influence is what constitutes the Moor classification... in other words, without the negro quality, the Moor classification would not be applied.
It's sad and pathetic how he tries to do mental gymnastics when the text is clear as can be.
If you want to cry, attack the white scholar who wrote the info, not the person presenting it. Just goes to show how butthurt you are
Let us all know when you acquire credentials anywhere close to the level of the scholar I referenced. He went to Cambridge University as well as the University of Sydney, and he was an anatomist.
What's on your resume antalas? Besides lying about north african history and gaslighting on egypt search all day
*Antalas cries about the age of the source(s) I post, here's one republished in 2006, another white scholar writing about the Moors:
"In 711 A.D., the Moors crossed the Straits of Gibraltar and began their conquests on the Spanish peninsula. It was during these conquests that many were captured and their descendants sold to the slave traders who brought them in shackles to America."
"Delaware's Forgotten Folk: The Story of the Moors and Nanticokes" by C.A. Weslager, page 4 (2006) University of Pennsylvania Press
***** when were your people captured and sent in shackles to america, antalas? Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
Here are photos of C.A. Weslager and his credentials so antalas can accuse him of LARPing and cry about him trying to "steal his history"
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: Look at antalas repeatedly ignore the fact that the source says the negro influence is what constitutes the Moor classification... in other words, without the negro quality, the Moor classification would not be applied.
It's sad and pathetic how he tries to do mental gymnastics when the text is clear as can be.
If you want to cry, attack the whire scholar who wrote the info, not the person presenting it. Just goes to show how butthurt you are
Let us all know when you acquire credentials anywhere close to the level of the scholar I referenced. He went to Cambridge University as well as the University of Sydney, and he was an anatomist.
What's on your resume antalas? Besides lying about north african history and gaslighting on egypt search all day
*Antalas cries about the age of the source(s) I post, here's one from 2006, another white scholar writing about the Moors:
"In 711 A.D., the Moors crossed the Straits of Gibraltar and began their conquests on the Spanish peninsula. It was during these conquests that many were captured and their descendants sold to the slave traders who brought them in shackles to America."
"Delaware's Forgotten Folk: The Story of the Moors and Nanticokes" by C.A. Weslager, page 4 (2006) University of Pennsylvania Press
***** when were your people captured and sent in shackles to america, antalas?
LMAO you just posted a fictional book : " It is offered not as a textbook nor as a scientific discussion, but merely as reading entertainment founded on the life history, social struggle, and customs of a little-known people."
that's your level XD
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
Where does it say fiction, antalies? It simply says it's not a textbook, or science.
The last source I posted wasn't a textbook or science either.
In fact, none of the historical sources that anyone on this website posts are textbooks or science.
It literally says the information is founded on life history.
What a sad, pathetic attempt at a cop out.
So are you taking this to mean that the University of Pennsylvania is publishing false information, and that C. A. Weslager (History Professor Emeritus of Brandywine College of Widener University) is a liar?
Is this what you are accusing?
Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: the same Dana who blocked me and used photoshopped pics of my people ...afrocentrists using afrocentrist sources to back up their claims smh.
Also we have hundreds of genetic papers about berbers there are no evidence of "vandal" "circassian" "syrian" etc ancestry wtf is she talking about ? She's trying to do all she can to erase us and claim our history and ancestors.
Wait.. Dana blocked you? What name did you use at the time?
Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
You that part and not this? Are you aware I have "negro" admixture myself ? Yet am I black ?
If you're part negro Antalas,then why do you have such negative sentiments of Negros or Black being in parts of Africa or the world where they supposedly didn't do much on the continent?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Concubines were of varied complexions but mostly black, and a few were of European and Eastern origin. It was a custom for the governors of the provinces to send beautiful young women to the sultan. Dark-skinned women were more numerous because they were usually easily acquired from the local markets as a result of the continuous yearly supply from the trans-Saharan slave trade. The sultan also chose his concubines, sometimes from free women
Chouki El Hamel, Black Morocco a history of slavery, race and Islam, pp. 195
Genetically it's well attested :
quote:Comparing our results with previously reported genome-wide data, we also find evidence for a sex-biased sub-Saharan contribution to northern Africans, suggesting that historical events such as the trans-Saharan slave trade mainly contributed to the mtDNA and autosomal gene pool, whereas the northern African paternal gene pool was mainly shaped by more ancient events.
That's why in urban centers or the southern oasis it's common to find people who look like this :
.
. from your source:
The peopling of the last Green Sahara revealed by high-coverage resequencing of trans-Saharan patrilineages Eugenia D’Atanasio,2018
In order to investigate the role of the last Green Sahara in the peopling of Africa, we deep-sequence the whole non-repetitive portion of the Y chromosome in 104 males selected as representative of haplogroups which are currently found to the north and to the south of the Sahara. __________________________________
^^ so this study only attests to this in their historical commentary but this was not an mtDNA so they did not detail any thing genetically to that effect
____________________________________
wikipedia
Genetic studies on Moroccans
Moroccan Mitochondrial mtDNA
The Moroccan mitochondrial pool is essentially Berber in its structure, characterized by an "overall high frequency of Western Eurasian haplogroups" Represented by the Post-last glacial maximum expansion from Iberia to North Africa revealed by fine characterization of mtDNA HV haplogroup in Morocco is Estimated around 36% to 60%, a somehow lower frequency of sub-Saharan L lineages, and a significant (but differential) presence of North African haplogroups U6 and M1".[75] And according to Cherni et al. 2008 "the post-Last glacial maximum expansion originating in Iberia not only led to the resettlement of Europe but also of North Africa".[76]
Eurasian mtDNA (maternal) sequences, were detected at frequencies of 96% in Moroccan Berbers, 82% in Algerian Berbers and 78% in non-Berber Moroccans, compared with only 4% in a Senegalese population. (Rando 1998)
Until recently, some papers suggested that the distribution of the main L haplogroups in Morocco was mainly due to trans-Saharan slave trade.[77] However, in September 2010, a thorough study about Berber mtDNA by Fregel. concluded that most of L haplogroups were much older and introduced by an ancient African gene flow around 20,000 years ago.[78]
Moroccan Northern Berbers have only 3% to 1% of SSA mtDNA, This north-south gradient in the sub-Saharan contribution to the gene pool is supported by Esteban et al.,[79] for the rest of mtDNA lineages mostly are Caucasian/West Eurasian, while Moroccan Arabs have more elevated SSA maternal admixture at around 21% to 36% Via L-mtDNA sequences, Highest frequencies of L-mtDNA is Reported to Moroccan Arabs of The Surrounding area of El jadida at 36% and this is largely ascribed to the slave trade.[80]
______________________________
^^ So according to this (and one can follow up with the journal articles) the L frequencies of 25-36% (see chart) in the Arab population of Morocco are due to admixture with slaves and Fregel 2010 said that the much lower L frequencies in Moroccan berbers were much older than the slave trade and introduced by an ancient African gene flow around 20,000 years ago.
Turchi 2009 however, said that Moroccan Southern Berbers were 26% L
It is estimated that between 41% to 80% of residents have Berber ancestral origins. That is hard to measure. One source says 41% (less than a majority) the other a wide majority 80%. But the Moroccan government as far as a know, does not make an effort to distinguish in population data (which might be a good thing)
Polymorphisms of mtDNA control region in Tunisian and Moroccan populations: an enrichment of forensic mtDNA databases with Northern Africa data
Chiara Turchi 1 et al, 2009 PMID: 19414164 DOI: 10.1016/j.fsigen.2009.01.014
Current forensic mitochondrial (mt)DNA databases are limited in representative population data of African origin. We investigated HVS-I/HVS-II sequences of 120 Tunisian and Moroccan healthy male donors applying stringent quality criteria to assure high quality of the data and phylogenetic alignment and notation of the sequences. Among 64 Tunisians, 56 different haplotypes were observed and the most common haplotype (16187T 16189C 16223T 16264T 16270T 16278T 16293G 16311C 73G 152C 182T 185T 195C 247A 263G 309.1C 315.1C; haplogroup (hg) L1b) was shared by four individuals. 56 Moroccans could be assigned to 52 different haplotypes where the most common haplotype was of West Eurasian origin with the hg H sequence motif 263G 315.1C and variations in the HVS-II polyC-stretch (309.1C 309.2C) shared by six samples. The majority of the observed haplotypes belong to the west Eurasian phylogeny (50% in Tunisians and 62.5% in Moroccans). Our data are consistent with the current phylogeographic knowledge displaying the occurrence of sub-Saharan haplogroup L sequences, found in 48.4% of Tunisians and 25% of Moroccans as well as the presence of the two re-migrated haplogroups U6 (7.8% and 1.8% in Tunisians and Moroccans, respectively) and M1 (1.6% in Tunisians and 8.9% in Moroccans).
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah:
"In 711 A.D., the Moors crossed the Straits of Gibraltar and began their conquests on the Spanish peninsula. It was during these conquests that many were captured and their descendants sold to the slave traders who brought them in shackles to America."
"Delaware's Forgotten Folk: The Story of the Moors and Nanticokes" by C.A. Weslager, page 4 (2006) University of Pennsylvania Press
***** when were your people captured and sent in shackles to america, antalas? [/QB]
Can you clarify for us, what was the time period when Moors were being sold to America and what was the place they were coming from?
Also, the word "Moor" here, does that pertain to North Africans only?
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: [QB] "The vast bulk of the Negro Race is to be found in Africa, where it occupies the tropical belt as far north as the Sahara, and spreads up the west coast almost as far as Morocco. In fact, Negro admixture is so evident amongst the Moroccan population itself that the word 'Moor' is often used to suggest Negro influence, as we see in the name 'Blackamoor.'"
"Human History" by Grafton Elliot Smith, page 139 (1934) London : J. cape
according to Grafton Elliot Smith who were these Negroes mixing with?
Who they were mixing with is irrelevant because the negro presence is was constituted the Moor classification. Not the other way around
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
The book "Delaware's Forgotten Folk: The Story of the Moors and Nanticokes" by C.A. Weslager was originally published in 1943. The author died in 1994.
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: Where does it say fiction, antalies? It simply says it's not a textbook, or science.
The last source I posted wasn't a textbook or science either.
In fact, none of the historical sources that anyone on this website posts are textbooks or science.
It literally says the information is founded on life history.
What a sad, pathetic attempt at a cop out.
So are you taking this to mean that the University of Pennsylvania is publishing false information, and that C. A. Weslager (History Professor Emeritus of Brandywine College of Widener University) is a liar?
Is this what you are accusing?
That was not written in 2006 nor is it a scientific work. He probably talks about moriscos but of course you didn't know that they were actually forbidden from settling in america and they were far from being black (we do have their genetic results and their descendents still live in North africa today).
Again avoid talking about things you barely know anything about. I just wanted to make things clear I'll certainly not waste my time with someone who believes ancient jews were "negroes".
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: The book "Delaware's Forgotten Folk: The Story of the Moors and Nanticokes" by C.A. Weslager was originally published in 1943. The author died in 1994.
that Tazarah has an obsession with old sources probably because serious and recent works debunks all the past fantasies
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: [QB] "The vast bulk of the Negro Race is to be found in Africa, where it occupies the tropical belt as far north as the Sahara, and spreads up the west coast almost as far as Morocco. In fact, Negro admixture is so evident amongst the Moroccan population itself that the word 'Moor' is often used to suggest Negro influence, as we see in the name 'Blackamoor.'"
"Human History" by Grafton Elliot Smith, page 139 (1934) London : J. cape
according to Grafton Elliot Smith who were these Negroes mixing with?
Who they were mixing with is irrelevant because the negro presence is was constituted the Moor classification. Not the other way around
So according to this man's opinion are all Negros Moors or are only North African Negroes Moors?
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thereal: You that part and not this? Are you aware I have "negro" admixture myself ? Yet am I black ?
If you're part negro Antalas,then why do you have such negative sentiments of Negros or Black being in parts of Africa or the world where they supposedly didn't do much on the continent?
negative sentiments ? I don't have such thing I'm just correcting sneaky and complexed people who try to appropriate my history and ancestors and treat me as if I was some kind of recent mutt.
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
@lioness are you some kind of bot ? I've never understood what you're doing here ?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: as if I was some kind of recent mutt.
what if being a mutt is actually better than being less of a mutt?
Could less muttish people be secretly jealous of the more muttish and then attempt to force them to pick a side because they can't deal with it?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: @lioness are you some kind of bot ? I've never understood what you're doing here ?
you would have to explain what you mean by that, I'm not getting it
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: @lioness are you some kind of bot ? I've never understood what you're doing here ?
you would have to explain what you mean by that, I'm not getting it
You act like a bot and never side with anyone. Just asking questions and spamming informations. What are you doing on this site ? Learning ? I don't get it
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
teaching and learning at the same time
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: teaching
suspicious tbh seems like you're here to maintain some activity
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Can you clarify for us, what was the time period when Moors were being sold to America and what was the place they were coming from?
Also, the word "Moor" here, does that pertain to North Africans only?
Logically, sometime during or after the period when america began to exist and was importing slaves.
The history of the moors being conquered is easily accessible, and I'm not aware of any "north africans" (antalas's version of north africans) that were sent as slaves to america
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
quote:Originally posted by antalas: You act like a bot and never side with anyone. Just asking questions and spamming informations. What are you doing on this site ? Learning ? I don't get it
This is probably the only thing I will ever agree with antalas on.
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
@antalas
So antalas's argument is that the University of Pennslyvania republished false imformation in 2006... written by a history professor of emeritus who holds way more credentials and authority than antalas has or will ever hold.
The source doesn't say the Moors settled in america, it says they were taken there as slaves in shackles.
Reading comprehension is key.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: teaching
suspicious tbh seems like you're here to maintain some activity
activity is good
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: @antalas
So antalas's argument is that the University of Pennslyvania republished false imformation in 2006... written by a history professor of emeritus who holds way more credentials and authority than antalas has or will ever hold.
The source doesn't say the Moors settled in america, it says they were taken there as slaves in shackles.
Reading comprehension is key.
Moriscos never got enslaved that's what you didn't know. They got expelled from the peninsula and most settled in North Africa and the middle east, some went in portugal others in France, etc They were forbidden from setting foot in America whether "enslaved" or not. The only north african slaves who were sent there as far as I know are some native canary islanders who were sent especially in cuba and puerto rico if I'm not mistaken but that's it.
quote:But by 1609 he decided that such conversion was not feasible and ordered their expulsion from all the Iberian Peninsula—an expulsion that continued until 1614 and dispersed the population all around the Atlantic and the Mediterranean: from the Canary Islands to Santa Cruz, Marrakesh, Fez, Tangier, Tetouan, Oran, Algiers, Tunis, Alexandria, Cairo, Damascus, Istanbul, Salonica, Leghorn, and Genoa. (The Moroccan historian Ahmad al- Maqqari, writing about 1626, mentioned the following cities, too: Salé, Elite Sources 83Rabat, and Tilimsen.)42 So desperate were many of the exiles that they tried to return secretly to their native regions (as Cervantes recounted in Ricote’s story in part 2 of Don Quixote, 1615), only to meet with death upon being discovered. Others turned to piracy and revenge and attacked coastal cities that had once housed their families and history"
Nabil Matar, Europe through Arab eyes, pp. 82-83
Again start reading proper scientific works instead of wasting your time with old pseudo science and "entertainment".
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Can you clarify for us, what was the time period when Moors were being sold to America and what was the place they were coming from?
Also, the word "Moor" here, does that pertain to North Africans only?
Logically, sometime during or after the period when america began to exist and was importing slaves.
The history of the moors being conquered is easily accessible, and I'm not aware of any "north africans" (antalas's version of north africans) that were sent as slaves to america
It's not clear what you mean by "Moor"
Are you saying that word the Moor = "any Negro" ?
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
Antalas can you address the points/questions made in this post instead of dancing around them?
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: Where does it say fiction, antalies? It simply says it's not a textbook, or science.
The last source I posted wasn't a textbook or science either.
In fact, none of the historical sources that anyone on this website posts are textbooks or science.
It literally says the information is founded on life history.
What a sad, pathetic attempt at a cop out.
So are you taking this to mean that the University of Pennsylvania is publishing false information, and that C. A. Weslager (History Professor Emeritus of Brandywine College of Widener University) is a liar?
Is this what you are accusing?
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
@Antalas
P.S., the source you just referenced wasn't a textbook or science, thus, according to your logic it isn't credible and is "pseudo science".
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: @Antalas
P.S., the source you just referenced wasn't a textbook or science, thus, according to your logic it isn't credible and is "pseudo science".
??? it's a historical book written by a researcher it's not "entertainment" like yours
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Antalas I recommend you don't reply further on this topic of Moors until Tazarah informs us what his definition of a Moor is. It might be vastly different that what your definition of Moor is so remarks you make might refer to people entirely different then who he is referring to if he talks about Moors
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: [QB] Antalas can you address the points/questions made in this post instead of dancing around them?
It wasn't written in 2006 and it doesn't matter who that man was what he wrote isn't a scientific work it's fiction as written in the preface. + I can easily post 10 sources which contradict what you highlighted in his fictional book.
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas,: Moriscos never got enslaved that's what you didn't know. They got expelled from the peninsula and most settled in North Africa and the middle east, some went in portugal others in France, etc
Antalas, are you lying to push a false narrative? Or are you just misinformed?
quote:Originally posted by Antalas,: Moriscos never got enslaved that's what you didn't know. They got expelled from the peninsula and most settled in North Africa and the middle east, some went in portugal others in France, etc
Antalas, are you lying to push a false narrative? Or are you just misinformed?
Some moors were captured from the coast of north africa yes but these were not moriscos and yes sure moriscos becoming voluntarily slaves XD I'm talking based on books not wiki
Also why do you speak of them as if they were black ? We got their genetic results and they still exist today in many of our cities.
Here a famous example Ahmed piro descendent of moriscos who got expelled :
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
You know wikipedia cites/references actual scholars, right?
Are you backpedaling now?
Antalas calls my sources "fiction" and entertainment
Then he lies and creates his own fictional version of history where Moors or Moriscos were never slaves
Pure comedy at this point
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: You know wikipedia cites/references actual scholars, right?
Are you backpedaling now?
Antalas calls my sources "fiction" and entertainment
Then he lies and creates his own fictional version of history where Moors or Moriscos were never slaves
Pure comedy at this point
you have to cite the sources that wikipedia is citing
also it's pretty silly how you avoid even defining what a Moor is
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
Is this collegiate institution also lying and promoting "fictional entertainment" about Moors and Moriscos being slaves?
It's also funny how I never even mentioned Moriscos, antalas brought them up as a strawman argument but still ended up failing
"North African Muslims (“Moors”) and Berbers (“berberiscos”) represented another significant component of early modern Iberia's slave populations, as did moriscos in Spain, or mouriscos in Portugal (this term referred to Iberians who had converted from Islam to Christianity—in many cases by force—and their descendants)."
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: I'm not aware of any "north africans" that were sent as slaves to america
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
@the lioness
Why don't you quote what I said in it's entirety? This is why I ignore you, you're a troll. You purposely left out the part in parantheses to misrepresent what I've been saying just like you always do with everything. Zero integrity.
I said:
"The history of the moors being conquered is easily accessible, and I'm not aware of any "north africans" (antalas's version of north africans) that were sent as slaves to america"
**** and this is you quoting me saying that earlier -- just in case you try to lie and say I edited the comment.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: @the lioness
Why don't you quote what I said in it's entirety? This is why I ignore you, you're a troll. You purposely left out the part in parantheses to misrepresent what I've been saying.
I said:
"The history of the moors being conquered is easily accessible, and I'm not aware of any "north africans" (antalas's version of north africans) that were sent as slaves to america"
What Antalas' version is is irrelevant to your version
but you have no version, it's all a bluff game you keep avoiding even defining what a Moor is yet making statements about Moors
you obviously have no idea what you are talking about and don't know what a Moor is
you don't know the basic history of the region so you are just stumbling around with bits and pieces of a puzzle that you have no idea how to fit together. It's embarrassing You goal seems to be see if you can prove him wrong on anything yet at the same time groping around knowing next to nothing about the subject
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
I already defined what a Moor is according to the sources I've posted and that's another reason why I was ignoring you.
And Antalas obviously has a different perspective on what constitutes being a Moor, hence the reason why I put that part in parathenses that you intentionally left out to misrepresent me.
Everything that you say is irrelevant and you've just exposed yourself as being a deceptive liar for the umpteenth time by purposely misrepresenting what I said about north africans being sent as slaves to america.
How a deceptive liar like yourself even has the nerve to criticize anyone else is beyond me.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Tazarah:
"In 711 A.D., the Moors crossed the Straits of Gibraltar and began their conquests on the Spanish peninsula. It was during these conquests that many were captured and their descendants sold to the slave traders who brought them in shackles to America."
"Delaware's Forgotten Folk: The Story of the Moors and Nanticokes" by C.A. Weslager, page 4 (2006) University of Pennsylvania Press
***** when were your people captured and sent in shackles to america, antalas?
what C.A. Weslager says here in the first paragraph that's highlighted, it doesn't make sense and sounds stupid, if not very poorly articulated, whatever he's trying to say
I'm not saying he's stupid over all but this part here is stupidly written
I have to warn you
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
Lyingass, decade long troll of Egypt Search, criticizing an actual university history professor emeritus.
Ha
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: I already defined what a Moor is according to the sources I've posted and that's another reason why I was ignoring you.
And Antalas obviously has a different perspective on what constitutes being a Moor, hence the reason why I put that part in parathenses that you intentionally left out to misrepresent me.
Everything that you say is irrelevant and you've just exposed yourself as being a deceptive liar for the umpteenth time by purposely misrepresenting what I said about north africans being sent as slaves to america.
How a deceptive liar like yourself even has the nerve to criticize anyone else is beyond me.
What you don't know is "Thule" was of the most notorious racist trolls on Egyptsearch and was banned over and over again under different aliases
He informs us here of one of his more well known aliases "Cassiterides" aka "Cass" aka Anglo_Pyramidologist and about 5 other names
as for the name he is using here "Thule" >>
_________________________________
In Germany, occultists believed in a historical Thule, or Hyperborea, as the ancient origin of the "Aryan race" (a term which they believed had been used by the Proto-Indo-European people). The Thule Society, which had close links to the German Workers' Party (DAP) was a short-lived far-right political party established in Weimar Germany after World War I. It was the precursor of the Nazi Party, later known as the the National Socialist German Workers' NSDAP), was a far-right political party in Germany active between 1920 and 1945 that created and supported the ideology of Nazism. A primary focus of the Thule Society was a claim concerning the origins of the Aryan race. In 1917, people who wanted to join the "Germanic Order", out of which the Thule Society developed in 1918, had to sign a special "blood declaration of faith" concerning their lineage:
The signer hereby swears to the best of his knowledge and belief that no Jewish or coloured blood flows in either his or in his wife's veins, and that among their ancestors are no members of the coloured races. __________________________________
you are are going off topic again with the personal attacks and supporting a Nazi propagandist and these old people from 2012, more subjects you know nothing about
You are embarrassed now so you're going into act-out mode
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
Hey Lyingass, you just purposely misquoted me to push a false narrative and misrepresent my position.
And you wonder why I was ignoring you and hoping you'd go away and leave me alone.
Now you're getting mad because I'm posting screenshots of other people calling out your trollish behavior over the past decade.
I have literally dozens more screenshots like that from dozens more users over the past decade but at this point I won't even bother posting them because everyone already knows what a lying troll you are.
Zero integrity.
Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
quote:The Berbers (Amazighen, as they call themselves) are considered the autochthonous people of North Africa. As can be elucidated from the complex and unsolved prehistory and history of North Africa, it is difficult to establish an origin for the Berbers, and many hypotheses have been proposed. Historical records reveal their presence before the Phoenician arrival to the region (Camps, 1998), and archaeologically, it has been suggested a link between the Capsian culture and the Berber people (Camps, 1995). However, the Berbers might not have been a uniform and homogeneous group, since it has been known that the populations that inhabited North Africa by the time of the Phoenician arrival were a composite group known as Libyco-Berbers, where we find the Garamantes, Bavares, Mauri, Gaetuli, among many others (Newman, 1995). In addition to the uncertainties about the origins of the Berbers, the arrival of other people in the region, especially the influence of Arabs, makes the understanding of the population history of Berbers more challenging.
quote:These classical studies showed little contribution from sub-Saharan populations in North Africans and genetic differentiation from southern Europeans, including Iberians (Bosch et al., 1997). However, the analysis of mtDNA lineages has shown an important sub-Saharan contribution, although most haplogroups in North Africa are of west-Eurasian origin (Fadhlaoui-Zid et al., 2004, 2011b; Krings et al., 1999; Plaza et al., 2003; Rando et al., 1998). Some of them can be traced to ancient Paleolithic times (such as haplogroups U6, M1, which are almost specific of North African populations); however, some maternal lineages have been the result of a more recent acquisition from Europe or the Middle East (such as haplogroups U5, V, R0a, J1b, U3) (González et al., 2007; Maca-Meyer et al., 2003; Olivieri et al., 2006) (Figure 1). In addition, a large degree of genetic heterogeneity has been shown in North African maternal and paternal lineages compared to other geographical regions such as Europe (Fadhlaoui-Zid et al., 2004, 2011a; Plaza et al., 2003). The analysis of Y-chromosome lineages has shown a high frequency of two specific North African haplogroups (E-M81 and E-M78) (Figure 1), although their origins have been controversial since some analyses have suggested a Paleolithic component (Bosch et al., 2001), whereas others have pointed to a Neolithic origin /QUOTE]
[QUOTE]in few North African samples pointing to a closer genetic affinity to West Eurasian populations. Y-chromosome lineages and autosomal markers show a clear differentiation of North African populations with some sub-Saharan gene flow and almost negligible European contact (Bosch et al., 2000, 2001; Comas et al., 2000; González-Pérez et al., 2010). Nonetheless, the contribution of North African female and male lineages in the Iberian Peninsula (Adams et al., 2008; Plaza et al., 2003) should be stressed .
quote:Concerning the genetic differences between Berber and Arab groups, classical and uniparental markers have highlighted the lack of a genetic structure that could differentiate Berber and Arab populations (Bekada et al., 2015; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al., 2004; Harich et al., 2001; Kefi et al., 2015). Most of these authors have agreed on a cultural rather than a demographic impact of the Arabisation after the Arab expansion (Bosch et al., 2000, 2001; Ennafaa et al., 2011; Flores et al., 2011). However, as stated earlier, an East-to-West genetic gradient of a Middle Eastern component has been described in genome-wide analyses , and admixture events have been dated to the Arabisation period (Arauna et al., 2017; Henn et al., 2012), suggesting that the Arabisation might have had more demographic impact than previously thought. The first widespread genome-wide study in North Africa (Henn et al., 2012) suggested that the single Berber sample analysed (Tunisian Berber from Chenini) presented high frequencies of an autochthonous North African component (named in the study the ‘Maghrebi’ component) and negligible presence of the Middle Eastern component. This lack of Middle Eastern component in Berbers and its higher frequencies in Arabs pointed to a genome differentiation between both North African groups. However, the posterior genome-wide analysis of additional Berber samples has challenged this genetic differentiation idea (Arauna et al., 2017). This study has corroborated the lack of genetic differentiation between Berbers and Arabs; however, it has shown that the Arabisation had also a demographic impact in North Africa (Figure 2). It is difficult to exactly quantify the magnitude of the Arab genetic contribution during the Arab expansion in the seventh century, among other reasons because the influence from Middle East has been continuous into North Africa (Camps, 1995). Therefore, this data supports the lack of significant differences between Berber and Arabs, but points to a new explanation: a high and differential level of admixture since the Arab expansion that has affected most North African groups regardless of their Berber or Arab identity
quote: The North African genetic pool is defined as a melting pot of genetic components, including an endemic North African Epipalaeolithic component at low frequency that forms a declining gradient from Western to Eastern North Africa . This scenario is consistent with Neolithization having shaped most of the current genetic variation in the region when compared to posterior back-to-North-Africa migration waves such as the Arabization.
quote:Population structure and ancestry components were determined by ADMIXTURE (Figures 1B and S2). The lowest cross-validation errors were found in the range between K = 4 and K = 7, which depicts North African ancestry as a mosaic of components that are consistently conserved across different values of K (Figure 1C): (1) a sub-Saharan component derived from trans-Saharan gene flow (black); (2) European and Anatolian Neolithic component (white); (3) an ancient Middle Eastern component, prevalent in Natufian and Levant Neolithic and also present in current Levantine populations, particularly in Bedouin groups (blue); (4) a component coming from Caucasus hunter-gatherers and Iran Neolithic (purple); and, (5) a North African autochthonous Epipalaeolithic component prevalent in the Moroccan Epipalaeolithic from Taforalt and Early Neolithic samples (orange), observed at low proportions in Moroccan Late Neolithic, Guanches, and in current Canary Islanders. The North African autochthonous component is absent in any other population outside North Africa from K = 7 onward, while its presence for lower K in sub-Saharan population values might be explained by the presence of a sub-Saharan ancestral component in North African Palaeolithic populations, as pointed out by
quote:Egyptian and Libyan show the highest proportion of the Caucasus-Iran component, in agreement with their geographical proximity to southwest Asia. A high f3 value is also estimated for KEB (0.250), in contrast to the lower estimated values found for Taforalt and IAM (0.206, 0.216), suggesting that this component might have entered North Africa during the late Neolithic coming from Iran and may have been posteriorly diluted in western North Africa.
quote:These results point to the main role of the Neolithization process when shaping the current North African genetic landscape, thus supporting the PCA, ADMIXTURE, and internal f3 tests, where Eurasian gene flow after Neolithization (such as the Arabization process starting in the 7th century CE) seem to have had a lower impact. The arrival of the Neolithic to North Africa as a demic diffusion process from the Middle East with putative interactions with local groups is widely accepted [14, 15], although some hypotheses and recent genetic data also point to direct contacts with Iberia [7, 16]. Despite recent approximate Bayesian computational based analyses of genetic data suggesting that the synchronous Neolithic expansion from the Middle East through both Mediterranean shores (i.e., Europe and North Africa) had a similar demographic pattern [17], our results point to a larger demographic replacement in North African than in European populations.
quote:The genomes of current Europeans carry a larger amount of hunter-gatherer components (up to 50% in Northern Europeans, according to [18]) compared to those of North Africans, where the Palaeolithic component, although present in extant populations, it is found at much lower frequencies (from 18.1% in Western Sahara to 5.2% in Egypt, according to the crude estimates of ADMIXTURE). This might suggest that the Neolithic demographic imprint was lower in Europe than in North Africa, where fewer local hunter-gatherers were assimilated by Neolithic farmers
quote:Ancient genomes from North Africa evidence prehistoric migrations to the Maghreb from both the Levant and Europe Fregel et al. 2018 estimated that examined individuals at the Late Neolithic site of Kelif el Boroud, Morocco, dated c. 3000 BC, carried about 50% EEF ancestry and 50% North African ancestry, were genetically predisposed to have light skin and light eyes, and entirely carried paternal and maternal lineages associated with EEFs.[23] It was suggested that EEF ancestry had entered North Africa through Cardial Ware colonists from Iberia sometime between 5000 and 3000 BC.[24] The examined samples of Kelif el Boroud were found to be closely related to Guanches of the Canary Islands.[25] Additional amounts of EEF ancestry may have been brought to North Africa by the Bell Beaker culture.[25] The authors of the study suggested that the Berbers of Morocco carried a substantial amount of EEF ancestry before the establishment of Roman colonies in Berber Africa.[25]
The Hyksos were a Semitic people who migrated to the Nile Delta region and invaded Egypt around the 18th century BC, that is, between 1700 and ...
Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey:
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: the same Dana who blocked me and used photoshopped pics of my people ...afrocentrists using afrocentrist sources to back up their claims smh.
Also we have hundreds of genetic papers about berbers there are no evidence of "vandal" "circassian" "syrian" etc ancestry wtf is she talking about ? She's trying to do all she can to erase us and claim our history and ancestors.
Wait.. Dana blocked you? What name did you use at the time?
Still waiting for an answer about Dana... it seems you posted your pic here... how old where you when you started this fight with Dana?
quote:With the contradictory evidence gathered from classical markers and the Y chromosome on one side and mitochondrial DNA on the other side, the advent of genome-wide technologies has been fundamental for obtaining a more nuanced picture of the complex genetic history of North Africa (Henn et al., 2012, Arauna et al., 2017, Fadhlaoui-Zid et al., 2013). Based on both genome-wide SNP data and whole-genome sequencing, it has been suggested that North Africans’ ancestry can be explained as the result of four migration events. First, present-day ancestry in North Africans is characterized by an autochthonous Maghrebi component related to a Paleolithic back migration to Africa from Eurasia. Second, there is a recent admixture event with a Middle Eastern component, which can be the result of the Arab expansion in North Africa in the seventh century. Third, historical trans-Saharan migrations produced gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa. Finally, North Africans carry a European component that can be linked to historic movements, such as the Roman occupation.
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: Wait.. Dana blocked you? What name did you use at the time? Still waiting for an answer about Dana... it seems you posted your pic here... how old where you when you started this fight with Dana?
Why are you trying to find me ? You won't get any info
Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
You are the one putting out your personal information in the public sphere
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey:
I get what you are saying, very similar to this young lady
Yep, very typical Northwest African traits. And it's common amongst light skinned and dark skinned complexions. Not that other features don't exists, but these are just very typical.
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: "The vast bulk of the Negro Race is to be found in Africa, where it occupies the tropical belt as far north as the Sahara, and spreads up the west coast almost as far as Morocco. In fact, Negro admixture is so evident amongst the Moroccan population itself that the word 'Moor' is often used to suggest Negro influence, as we see in the name 'Blackamoor.'"
"Human History" by Grafton Elliot Smith, page 139 (1934) London : J. cape
Yes it's evident among people with recent slave ancestry. North Africans used to import massively black females and had children with them. Following the islamic law, those children were not seen as slaves and could integrate north african societies and spread such type of ancestry :
quote:However, the bulk of the trade was in females, as domestic servants, entertainers and/or concubines: two females for every male overall, in contrast to the ratio of two males for every female overall in the Atlantic trade [15]. Some harems could be enormous, reaching even the extravagating number of 14,000 concubines. Young female slaves were instructed in household crafts and were then provided with resources to buy a home and get married."
quote:Concubines were of varied complexions but mostly black, and a few were of European and Eastern origin. It was a custom for the governors of the provinces to send beautiful young women to the sultan. Dark-skinned women were more numerous because they were usually easily acquired from the local markets as a result of the continuous yearly supply from the trans-Saharan slave trade. The sultan also chose his concubines, sometimes from free women
Chouki El Hamel, Black Morocco a history of slavery, race and Islam, pp. 195
Genetically it's well attested :
quote:Comparing our results with previously reported genome-wide data, we also find evidence for a sex-biased sub-Saharan contribution to northern Africans, suggesting that historical events such as the trans-Saharan slave trade mainly contributed to the mtDNA and autosomal gene pool, whereas the northern African paternal gene pool was mainly shaped by more ancient events.
How does that translate into mt-DNA and in particular North African women? Btw, there's a separation between Northwest and Northeast when it comes to this genetic and ethnic distribution.
quote: Αἰθίοψ , οπος, ὁ, fem. Αἰθιοπίς , ίδος, ἡ （Αἰθίοψ as fem., A.Fr.328, 329): pl.
A. “Αἰθιοπῆες” Il.1.423, whence nom. “Αἰθιοπεύς” Call.Del.208: (αἴθω, ὄψ):—properly, Burnt-face, i.e. Ethiopian, negro, Hom., etc.; prov., Αἰθίοπα σμήχειν 'to wash a blackamoor white', Luc.Ind. 28.
2. a fish, Agatharch.109.
II. Adj., Ethiopian, “Αἰθιοπὶς γλῶσσα” Hdt.3.19; “γῆ” A.Fr.300, E.Fr.228.4: Subst. Αἰθιοπίς, ἡ, title of Epic poem in the Homeric cycle; also name of a plant, silver sage, Salvia argentea, Dsc.4.104:— also Αἰθιόπιος , α, ον, E.Fr.349: Αἰθιοπικός , ή, όν, Hdt., etc.; Αἰ. κύμινον, = ἄμι, Hp.Morb.3.17, Dsc. 3.62:—Subst. Αἰθιοπία , ἡ, Hdt., etc. 2. red-brown, AP7.196 (Mel.), cf. Ach. Tat.4.5.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: How does that translate into mt-DNA and in particular North African women? Btw, there's a separation between Northwest and Northeast when it comes to this genetic and ethnic distribution.
quote: Αἰθίοψ , οπος, ὁ, fem. Αἰθιοπίς , ίδος, ἡ （Αἰθίοψ as fem., A.Fr.328, 329): pl.
A. “Αἰθιοπῆες” Il.1.423, whence nom. “Αἰθιοπεύς” Call.Del.208: (αἴθω, ὄψ):—properly, Burnt-face, i.e. Ethiopian, negro, Hom., etc.; prov., Αἰθίοπα σμήχειν 'to wash a blackamoor white', Luc.Ind. 28.
2. a fish, Agatharch.109.
II. Adj., Ethiopian, “Αἰθιοπὶς γλῶσσα” Hdt.3.19; “γῆ” A.Fr.300, E.Fr.228.4: Subst. Αἰθιοπίς, ἡ, title of Epic poem in the Homeric cycle; also name of a plant, silver sage, Salvia argentea, Dsc.4.104:— also Αἰθιόπιος , α, ον, E.Fr.349: Αἰθιοπικός , ή, όν, Hdt., etc.; Αἰ. κύμινον, = ἄμι, Hp.Morb.3.17, Dsc. 3.62:—Subst. Αἰθιοπία , ἡ, Hdt., etc. 2. red-brown, AP7.196 (Mel.), cf. Ach. Tat.4.5.
It simply translates into north africans having more SSA mtDNAs due to the slave trade but I suspect that a part of it is older than the medieval slave trade and that north-west africans already used to gradually absorb west african-like ancestry during the bronze to the iron age.
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah:
quote:Originally posted by Antalas,: Moriscos never got enslaved that's what you didn't know. They got expelled from the peninsula and most settled in North Africa and the middle east, some went in portugal others in France, etc
Antalas, are you lying to push a false narrative? Or are you just misinformed?
Some moors were captured from the coast of north africa yes but these were not moriscos and yes sure moriscos becoming voluntarily slaves XD I'm talking based on books not wiki
Also why do you speak of them as if they were black ? We got their genetic results and they still exist today in many of our cities.
Here a famous example Ahmed piro descendent of moriscos who got expelled :
quote: Figure 1. Y-Chromosomal Haplogroups in Iberian, North African, and Sephardic Jewish Samples Binary marker phylogeny of the Y chromosome, showing mutations on the branches of the tree, and shorthand haplogroup names40 immediately beneath. Haplogroups unobserved in any sample are indicated by dashed branches on the tree. Below the phylogeny are given the percentages of chromosomes carrying the observed haplogroup. Abbreviations are as follows: n, sample size; h, Nei’s unbiased estimator of gene diversity. Data on North African populations are from the literature (see footnotes). a Data from Bosch et al.34 b Data from Arredi et al.,47 with haplogroup prediction for hgG. c Subhaplogroups of R1b3 were not typed in the Sephardic Jewish sample.
quote: Figure 2. Haplogroup Distributions in Iberian, North African, and Sephardic Jewish Populations Haplogroup profiles of samples from the Iberian Peninsula and the Balearic Islands, published North African samples,34,47 and a Sephardic Jewish sample. Sectors in pie charts are colored according to haplogroup in the schematic tree to the right, and sector areas are propor- tional to haplogroup frequency. Sample names, abbreviations, and sizes (within pie charts) are indicated. Subhaplogroups of R1b3 were not typed in the Sephardic Jewish sample.
quote: Figure 4. Iberian, North African, and Sephardic Jewish Admixture Proportions among Iberian Peninsula Samples Mean North African, Sephardic Jewish, and Iberian admixture proportions among Iberian samples, based on the mY estimator and on Moroccan, Sephardic Jewish, and Basque parental populations, are represented on a map as shaded bars on bar charts. Error bars indicate standard deviations, and three-letter codes indicate populations, as given in Figure 1.
quote: Figure 6. Diversity of Y-STR Haplotypes Belonging to Haplogroup R1b3 Reduced median network53 containing the eight-locus Y-STR (DYS19, DYS389I, DYS389II-I, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, DYS393, DYS439) haplotypes of 767 hgR1b3 chromosomes, from Iberian populations and the Sephardic Jewish and Moroccan parental samples used in admix- ture analysis. Circles represent haplotypes, with area proportional to frequency and colored according to population, as shown in the key. For Iberian data, hgs R1b3b, R1b3d, R1b3f, and R1b3g have been combined into hgR1b3, because these sublineages were not distin- guished in the Sephardic Jewish sample.
Susan M. Adams, Mark A. Jobling et al.
The Genetic Legacy of Religious Diversity and Intolerance: Paternal Lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula
quote:Most studies of European genetic diversity have focused on large-scale variation and interpretations based on events in prehistory, but migrations and invasions in historical times could also have had profound effects on the genetic landscape.The geographical distribution of North African ancestry in the peninsula does not reflect the initial colonization and subsequent withdrawal and is likely to result from later enforced population movement—more marked in some regions than in others—plus the effects of genetic drift.
quote: The established population of the Iberian Peninsula prior to 711 CE has been estimated at 7–8 million people, ruled by about 200,000 Germanic Visigoths,19 who had entered from the north in the sixth century. Though the initial invading North African force was between 10,000 and 15,000 strong, the scale of subsequent migration and settlement is uncertain, with some claiming numbers in the hundreds of thousands. 20 Islamization of the populace after the invasion was certainly rapid, but it has been argued that this reflects an exponential social process of religious conversion rather than a substantial immigration;21 a sizeable proportion of the indigenous population (the so-called Mozarabs) was allowed to retain its Christian practices, as a result of the religious tolerance of the Muslim rulers.22 There is also doubt about the extent of intermarriage between indigenous people and settlers in the early phase.20 After the overthrow of Islamic rule in most of the peninsula, a period of tolerant coexistence (convivencia) ensued in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, but after 1492 (1496 in Portugal), religious intolerance forced Spanish Muslims to either convert to Christianity (as so-called moriscos) or leave.23 After the fifteenth century, moriscos were relocated across Spain on occasion, and, finally, during 1609–1616, over 200,000 were expelled, mostly from Valencia.
(Susan M.Adams et al., The Genetic Legacy of Religious Diversity and Intolerance: Paternal Lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula)
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey:
I get what you are saying, very similar to this young lady
Yep, very typical Northwest African traits. And it's common amongst light skinned and dark skinned complexions. Not that other features don't exists, but these are just very typical.
not typical + she's highly mixed (I suppose she's fassi)
compare with proper north africans :
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
The above are not typical + plus I said there's not just a rule of thumb.
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: The above are not typical + plus I said there not just a rule of thumb.
I'm moroccan lol so I know how my people look like
being american I doubt you have even met any north african in your life
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: The above are not typical + plus I said there not just a rule of thumb.
I'm moroccan lol so I know how my people look like
being american I doubt you have even met any north african in your life
I know you are Moroccan, and I happened to have Moroccan in my family and circle of friends. I almost married a Moroccan female.
What I said is that phenotype is typically found in Northwest Africa, mixed or not. It's a fact that certain traits are typical to Northwest Africans.
I am not even from America, so that was more of your false assumptions and assignations.
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: The above are not typical + plus I said there not just a rule of thumb.
I'm moroccan lol so I know how my people look like
being american I doubt you have even met any north african in your life
I know you are Moroccan, and I happened to have Moroccan in my family and circle of friends. I almost married a Moroccan female.
What I said is that phenotype is typically found in Northwest Africa, mixed or not. It's a fact that certain traits are typical to Northwest Africans.
I am not even from America, so that was more of your false assumptions and assignations.
Well I'm telling you that she doesn't look typically moroccan or north african to me and no comment on her genetic background she isn't even north african but mixed
Typical moroccan faces :
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: The above are not typical + plus I said there not just a rule of thumb.
I'm moroccan lol so I know how my people look like
being american I doubt you have even met any north african in your life
I know you are Moroccan, and I happened to have Moroccan in my family and circle of friends. I almost married a Moroccan female.
What I said is that phenotype is typically found in Northwest Africa, mixed or not. It's a fact that certain traits are typical to Northwest Africans.
I am not even from America, so that was more of your false assumptions and assignations.
Well I'm telling you that she doesn't look typically moroccan or north african to me and no comment on her genetic background she isn't even north african but mixed
Typical moroccan faces :
You have a comprehension disability. I said that what the female looks like is typically found in Northwest Africa. I didn't say there are no other phenotypes. Some of the traits in those females posted prior, are also visible in the people you posted in that photo collage.
You have to go back to the initial post.
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
it isn't ; only her eyes shape maybe but that's it overall she looks very unfamiliar and weird to me
This lady you posted looks typically north african :
Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: The above are not typical + plus I said there not just a rule of thumb.
I'm moroccan lol so I know how my people look like
being american I doubt you have even met any north african in your life
Why are you such a colorist and a featurist? You said you have negro blood but have no qualms of implying certain African phenotypes are the result from enslaved Africans further south mixing with North Africans instead elements already being there before any mixing has occurred.
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: it isn't ; only her eyes shape maybe but that's it overall she looks very unfamiliar and weird to me
This lady you posted looks typically north african :
I have seen a few over here who look like here, with those "weird" traits as you call them. It's not just the eyes, it's her overall appearance. It's hard to describe, but it's typical facial traits that come from Northwest Africa, and nowhere else.
During me younger years I knew a lot of Moroccan guys who liked to traveled to Brazil, so they could blend in easy without being bothered.
And I heard from Moroccan females that they loved traveling to the Dominican Republic. When I asked why, they told me, because they blend in easy.
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thereal:
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: The above are not typical + plus I said there not just a rule of thumb.
I'm moroccan lol so I know how my people look like
being american I doubt you have even met any north african in your life
Why are you such a colorist and a featurist? You said you have negro blood but have no qualms of implying certain African phenotypes are the result from enslaved Africans further south mixing with North Africans instead elements already being there before any mixing has occurred.
what's your problem with me ? I'm moroccan so I give my opinion about how my people look.
You seem to be upset that I do not darkwash my people and deny the impact of slaves. You have a problem with reality not me. What's next ? Haitians do not descend from african slaves ? Dominicans do not have african ancestry due to the atlantic slave trade ? If you do not agree with this you're racist and anti-negro...ridiculous
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: I have seen a few over here who look like here, with those "weird" traits as you call them. It's not just the eyes, it's her overall appearance. It's hard to describe, but it's typical facial traits that come from Northwest Africa, and nowhere else.
During me younger years I knew a lot of Moroccan guys who liked to traveled to Brazil, so they could blend in easy without being bothered.
And I heard from Moroccan females that they loved traveling to the Dominican Republic. When I asked why, they told me, because they blend in easy. [/QB]
your point ? She still doesn't look typically north african. Myself can blend easily and got confused as brazilian, turk, iranian,mexican, etc that doesn't mean anything
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: I have seen a few over here who look like here, with those "weird" traits as you call them. It's not just the eyes, it's her overall appearance. It's hard to describe, but it's typical facial traits that come from Northwest Africa, and nowhere else.
During me younger years I knew a lot of Moroccan guys who liked to traveled to Brazil, so they could blend in easy without being bothered.
And I heard from Moroccan females that they loved traveling to the Dominican Republic. When I asked why, they told me, because they blend in easy.
your point ? She still doesn't look typically north african. Myself can blend easily and got confused as brazilian, turk, iranian ,mexican, etc that doesn't mean anything
The point is that I didn't say North Africa, but rather Northwest African, with facial traits that one only finds amongst Moroccans. It does mean a thing when I can detect a heritage based on specific facial traits.
Most of the time we can see the difference between a Turk and Moroccan. I did hear a lot of Moroccans say that they phenotypically align with Latin Americans from Puerto Rico, Brazil the Dominican Republic. They didn't use anthological definitions, but that was the sauce of it.
When I was in Egypt, in the North (lower), Cairo people considered my to be from Saudi Arabia, while in the South some considered I was coming home to visit family, yet at other places they thought I came from East Africa. Although I am mainly of West African descent (based on genetics).
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: The point is that I didn't say North Africa, but rather Northwest African, with facial traits that one only finds amongst Moroccans. It does mean a thing when I can detect a heritage based on specific facial traits.
Most of the time we can see the difference between a Turk and Moroccan. I did hear a lot of Moroccans say that they phenotypically align with Latin Americans from Puerto Rico, Brazil the Dominican Republic. They didn't use anthological definitions, but that was the sauce of it. [/QB]
Yes we have our own phenotypes and look quite distinct but still she's not typical and again what's your point ? Myself got mistaken as latino many times by americans it doesn't mean anything. The same way I can find europeans who look north african or afghans who look european.
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: The point is that I didn't say North Africa, but rather Northwest African, with facial traits that one only finds amongst Moroccans. It does mean a thing when I can detect a heritage based on specific facial traits.
Most of the time we can see the difference between a Turk and Moroccan. I did hear a lot of Moroccans say that they phenotypically align with Latin Americans from Puerto Rico, Brazil the Dominican Republic. They didn't use anthological definitions, but that was the sauce of it.
Yes we have our own phenotypes and look quite distinct but still she's not typical and again what's your point ? Myself got mistaken as latino many times by americans it doesn't mean anything. The same way I can find europeans who look north african or afghans who look european. [/QB]
You are absolutely right,
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: The point is that I didn't say North Africa, but rather Northwest African, with facial traits that one only finds amongst Moroccans. It does mean a thing when I can detect a heritage based on specific facial traits.
Most of the time we can see the difference between a Turk and Moroccan. I did hear a lot of Moroccans say that they phenotypically align with Latin Americans from Puerto Rico, Brazil the Dominican Republic. They didn't use anthological definitions, but that was the sauce of it.
Yes we have our own phenotypes and look quite distinct but still she's not typical and again what's your point ? Myself got mistaken as latino many times by americans it doesn't mean anything. The same way I can find europeans who look north african or afghans who look european.
You are absolutely right,
[/QB]
Yes I'm right about some north africans having recent black ancestors
most north-west africans do not look as black as this guy stop trying to constantly darkwash my people
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: The point is that I didn't say North Africa, but rather Northwest African, with facial traits that one only finds amongst Moroccans. It does mean a thing when I can detect a heritage based on specific facial traits.
Most of the time we can see the difference between a Turk and Moroccan. I did hear a lot of Moroccans say that they phenotypically align with Latin Americans from Puerto Rico, Brazil the Dominican Republic. They didn't use anthological definitions, but that was the sauce of it.
Yes we have our own phenotypes and look quite distinct but still she's not typical and again what's your point ? Myself got mistaken as latino many times by americans it doesn't mean anything. The same way I can find europeans who look north african or afghans who look european.
You are absolutely right,
Yes I'm right about some north africans having recent black ancestors
most north-west africans do not look as black as this guy stop trying to constantly darkwash my people
Yes, you are absolutely right about that claim about "your point?", accept for the claim that it's recent. It's old, it's very old.
Sanaa and Sanaa.
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
Your point ? I can also cherrypick pictures of north africans who look european, east asian, black, etc
anyway like I said most north africans do not look as black as you try to depict them and we already have genetic papers showing that the trans-saharan slave trade did impact many communities in north africa but that's not surprising when you import millions of blacks throughout 1300 years.
It seems like you hate your background and try to create bonds with ethnicities which clearly have nothing to do with yours that's why you're all about "muh they saw me as their kin" or "see this black north african he looks like this mixed afro-american" Get a life
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: Your point ? I can also cherrypick pictures of north africans who look european, east asian, black, etc
anyway like I said most north africans do not look as black as you try to depict them and we already have genetic papers showing that the trans-saharan slave trade did impact many communities in north africa but that's not surprising when you import millions of blacks throughout 1300 years.
It seems like you hate your background and try to create bonds with ethnicities which clearly have nothing to do with yours that's why you're all about "muh they saw me as their kin" or "see this black north african he looks like this mixed afro-american" Get a life
This is the point, that it's not recent, but rather goes back to the Neolithic and even Mesolithic.
quote: Finally, the Taforalt individuals derive one third of their ancestry from sub-Saharan Africans, best approximated by a mixture of genetic components preserved in present-day West Africans (Yoruba, Mende) and Africans from Tanzania (Hadza). In contrast, modern North Africans have a much smaller sub-Saharan African component with no apparent link to Hadza. Our results provide the earliest direct evidence for genetic interactions between modern humans across Africa and Eurasia.”
~Marieke van de Loosdrecht
"Most" has to do with who procreated more and who was annihilated more over time. It's not something conclusive. Learn basic math and linguistics for that matter.
"By then, the idea of Moors had spread across Western Europe. “Moor” came to mean anyone who was Muslim or had dark skin; occasionally, Europeans would distinguish between “blackamoors” and “white Moors.” https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/who-were-moors Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
You can't or you won't read...
North Africa is heterogeneous and it's not just because of the slave trade.
Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: it isn't ; only her eyes shape maybe but that's it overall she looks very unfamiliar and weird to me
This lady you posted looks typically north african :
I have seen a few over here who look like here, with those "weird" traits as you call them. It's not just the eyes, it's her overall appearance. It's hard to describe, but it's typical facial traits that come from Northwest Africa, and nowhere else.
During me younger years I knew a lot of Moroccan guys who liked to traveled to Brazil, so they could blend in easy without being bothered.
And I heard from Moroccan females that they loved traveling to the Dominican Republic. When I asked why, they told me, because they blend in easy.
She could pass Puerto Rican also
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: You can't or you won't read...
North Africa is heterogeneous and it's not just because of the slave trade.
I have heard Northwest Africans (Moroccans) denounce that it's due to slavery.
Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: You can't or you won't read...
North Africa is heterogeneous and it's not just because of the slave trade.
I have heard Northwest Africans (Moroccans) denounce that it due to slavery.
No, they are a mix of Arab, Turk, Greek, Roman, Iberian, Berber, Sephardic and West African
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: You can't or you won't read...
North Africa is heterogeneous and it's not just because of the slave trade.
I have heard Northwest Africans (Moroccans) denounce that it due to slavery.
No, they are a mix of Arab, Turk, Greek, Roman, Iberian, Berber, Sephardic and West African
The strongly are against such claims to have admixture from sub Sahara Africa due to slavery. That is what I am referring at. It's there, but not due to slavey, that's the point being made.
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: This is the point, that it's not recent, but rather goes back to the Neolithic and even Mesolithic.
quote: Finally, the Taforalt individuals derive one third of their ancestry from sub-Saharan Africans, best approximated by a mixture of genetic components preserved in present-day West Africans (Yoruba, Mende) and Africans from Tanzania (Hadza). In contrast, modern North Africans have a much smaller sub-Saharan African component with no apparent link to Hadza. Our results provide the earliest direct evidence for genetic interactions between modern humans across Africa and Eurasia.”
~Marieke van de Loosdrecht
"Most" has to do with who procreated more and who was annihilated more over time. It's not something conclusive. Learn basic math and linguistics for that matter.
"By then, the idea of Moors had spread across Western Europe. “Moor” came to mean anyone who was Muslim or had dark skin; occasionally, Europeans would distinguish between “blackamoors” and “white Moors.” https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/who-were-moors [/QB]
So modern north africans are between 20-30% SSA why would paleolithic north africans being 30% SSA change anything drastically ? lol you literally admit even paleolithic north africans were only 30% SSA. All anthropologist and geneticists are clear about them being very different from sub-saharans but you want us to believe 500bc north africans were full blown black negroid ? XD I made countless of threads about ancient north africans being genetically similar to us yet you all avoid them because you simply don't have any argument to contradict them. You simply point out : " see here this x roman author said moors were black therefore they looked like me and you're an arab invader" XDDD meanwhile the same romans said the huns were black and berbers originally came from Greece, anatolia or phoenicia and at the same time always distinguish them from aethiopians...
Again why do you deny that north africans imported millions of black slaves in their regions ? Why do you deny that they had children with their black concubines ? Why do you deny that I'm genetically similar to north african samples from the copper age and the 8th century B.C. ?
Stop being desesperate.
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: it isn't ; only her eyes shape maybe but that's it overall she looks very unfamiliar and weird to me
This lady you posted looks typically north african :
I have seen a few over here who look like here, with those "weird" traits as you call them. It's not just the eyes, it's her overall appearance. It's hard to describe, but it's typical facial traits that come from Northwest Africa, and nowhere else.
During me younger years I knew a lot of Moroccan guys who liked to traveled to Brazil, so they could blend in easy without being bothered.
And I heard from Moroccan females that they loved traveling to the Dominican Republic. When I asked why, they told me, because they blend in easy.
She could pass Puerto Rican also
Some Boricuas do have Northwest African ancestry, it's minimum but it's there.
Ancestry DNA/Ged Match Couples Results - Puerto Rican & Moroccan, 2016.
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: You can't or you won't read...
North Africa is heterogeneous and it's not just because of the slave trade.
I have heard Northwest Africans (Moroccans) denounce that it due to slavery.
No, they are a mix of Arab, Turk, Greek, Roman, Iberian, Berber, Sephardic and West African
The strongly are against such claims to have admixture from sub Sahara Africa due to slavery. That is what I am referring at. It's there, but not due to slavey, that's the point being made.
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: You can't or you won't read...
North Africa is heterogeneous and it's not just because of the slave trade.
I have heard Northwest Africans (Moroccans) denounce that it due to slavery.
No, they are a mix of Arab, Turk, Greek, Roman, Iberian, Berber, Sephardic and West African
The strongly are against such claims to have admixture from sub Sahara Africa due to slavery. That is what I am referring at. It's there, but not due to slavey, that's the point being made.
Point being is that evidence points out that the bidirectional mixture is old and not recent. It goes back to the Mesolithic and Neolithic.
And I am only now seeing your post. I am not always on here as you may have noticed.
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: Dude, you are babbling now.
Point being is that evidence points out that the bidirectional mixture is old and not recent. It goes back to the Mesolithic and Neolithic. [/QB]
North africans always had SSA admixture yes but today many have more than our ancestors because of the slave trade that's what I'm trying to make you understand.
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: Dude, you are babbling now.
Point being is that evidence points out that the bidirectional mixture is old and not recent. It goes back to the Mesolithic and Neolithic.
North africans always had SSA admixture yes but today many have more than our ancestors because of the slave trade that's what I'm trying to make you understand. [/QB]
Doug M did put in some work, the remains unexplained by you.
We also have a history of the mummified boy.
It "may had more" is a subjective and baseless claims that remains to be irrelevant.
I said what I said, a lot of Moroccans denounce that it's due to slavery.
When we look at the admixture we can trace recent mixture back to Senegambia in most cases, and that is for a good reason. Senegambia was part of what we know as the moorish empire.
quote: “The most extensive pan-African haplotype (16189 16192 16223 16278 16294 16309 16390) is in the L2a1 haplogroup. This sequence is observed in West Africa among the Niger-Congo family including the Malinke, Wolof, and others; in North Africa among the Afro-Asiatic family including the Hausa and others; in Central Africa among the Niger-Congo family including the Bamileke and others; in South Africa among the Khoisan family including the Khwe and the Niger-Congo family Bantu speakers; and in East Africa among the Niger-Congo family Kikuyu.
Closely related variants are observed among the Afro-Asiatic family including the Tuareg in North and West Africa and among the East African Nilo-Saharan family Dinka. Thus, identical mitochondrial haplotypes are often shared among ethnic groups with considerable language diversity.”
(Bert Ely et al., African-American mitochondrial DNAs often match mtDNAs found in multiple African ethnic groups)
quote: “Our objective is to highlight the age of sub-Saharan gene flows in North Africa and particularly in Tunisia. Therefore we analyzed in a broad phylogeographic context sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroups of Tunisian Berber populations considered representative of ancient settlement. More than 2,000 sequences were collected from the literature, and networks were constructed. The results show that the most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced to North Africa from eastern sub-Saharan populations around 20,000 years ago. Our results also point to a less ancient western sub-Saharan gene flow to Tunisia, including haplogroups L2a and L3b. *This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 BP. These findings parallel the more recent findings of both archaeology and linguistics on the prehistory of Africa. The present work suggests that sub-Saharan contributions to North Africa have experienced several complex population processes after the occupation of the region by anatomically modern humans. Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa*”
(Frigi S, Cherni L, Fadhlaoui-Zid K, Benammar-Elgaaied A., Ancient local evolution of African mtDNA haplogroups in Tunisian Berber populations.)
High frequencies of Y chromosome lineages characterized by E3b1, DYS19-11, DYS392-12 in Somali males August 2005 European Journal of Human Genetics 13(7):856-66 DOI:10.1038/sj.ejhg.5201390
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: Some Boricuas do have Northwest African ancestry, it's minimum but it's there.
I had read some NA ancestry in Latinos is thought to come from Spanish people who have a little of this ancestry, not directly from North Africans E-M81 and U6 are also found in Spain and Portugal
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: Doug M did put in some work, the remains unexplained by you.
We also have a history of the mummified boy.
It "may had more" is a subjective and baseless claims that remains to be irrelevant.
I said what I said, a lot of Moroccans denounce that it's due to slavery.
When we look at the admixture we can trace recent mixture back to Senegambia in most cases, and that is for a good reason. Senegambia was part of what we know as the moorish empire.
quote: “The most extensive pan-African haplotype (16189 16192 16223 16278 16294 16309 16390) is in the L2a1 haplogroup. This sequence is observed in West Africa among the Niger-Congo family including the Malinke, Wolof, and others; in North Africa among the Afro-Asiatic family including the Hausa and others; in Central Africa among the Niger-Congo family including the Bamileke and others; in South Africa among the Khoisan family including the Khwe and the Niger-Congo family Bantu speakers; and in East Africa among the Niger-Congo family Kikuyu.
Closely related variants are observed among the Afro-Asiatic family including the Tuareg in North and West Africa and among the East African Nilo-Saharan family Dinka. Thus, identical mitochondrial haplotypes are often shared among ethnic groups with considerable language diversity.”
(Bert Ely et al., African-American mitochondrial DNAs often match mtDNAs found in multiple African ethnic groups)
quote: “Our objective is to highlight the age of sub-Saharan gene flows in North Africa and particularly in Tunisia. Therefore we analyzed in a broad phylogeographic context sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroups of Tunisian Berber populations considered representative of ancient settlement. More than 2,000 sequences were collected from the literature, and networks were constructed. The results show that the most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced to North Africa from eastern sub-Saharan populations around 20,000 years ago. Our results also point to a less ancient western sub-Saharan gene flow to Tunisia, including haplogroups L2a and L3b. *This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 BP. These findings parallel the more recent findings of both archaeology and linguistics on the prehistory of Africa. The present work suggests that sub-Saharan contributions to North Africa have experienced several complex population processes after the occupation of the region by anatomically modern humans. Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa*”
(Frigi S, Cherni L, Fadhlaoui-Zid K, Benammar-Elgaaied A., Ancient local evolution of African mtDNA haplogroups in Tunisian Berber populations.)
High frequencies of Y chromosome lineages characterized by E3b1, DYS19-11, DYS392-12 in Somali males August 2005 European Journal of Human Genetics 13(7):856-66 DOI:10.1038/sj.ejhg.5201390 [/QB]
???...ok and I never said "may had more" I posted enough studies go check the thread. There is no question about it if you think millions of slaves couldn't impact anyone in NA then you're obviously not rational.
Stop being in denial and adress all the threads I made.
Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: The point is that I didn't say North Africa, but rather Northwest African, with facial traits that one only finds amongst Moroccans. It does mean a thing when I can detect a heritage based on specific facial traits.
Most of the time we can see the difference between a Turk and Moroccan. I did hear a lot of Moroccans say that they phenotypically align with Latin Americans from Puerto Rico, Brazil the Dominican Republic. They didn't use anthological definitions, but that was the sauce of it.
Yes we have our own phenotypes and look quite distinct but still she's not typical and again what's your point ? Myself got mistaken as latino many times by americans it doesn't mean anything. The same way I can find europeans who look north african or afghans who look european.
You are absolutely right,
[/QB]
The guy on the bottom, don't know who he is but he looks Ethiopian to me... he may have Taureg ancestry
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
When we look at the admixture we can trace recent mixture back to Senegambia in most cases, and that is for a good reason. Senegambia was part of what we know as the moorish empire.
August 2010 Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations Sabeh Frigi,
Abstract Our objective is to highlight the age of sub-Saharan gene flows in North Africa and particularly in Tunisia. Therefore we analyzed in a broad phylogeographic context sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroups of Tunisian Berber populations considered representative of ancient settlement. More than 2,000 sequences were collected from the literature, and networks were constructed. The results show that the most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced to North Africa from eastern sub-Saharan populations around 20,000 years ago. Our results also point to a less ancient western sub-Saharan gene flow to Tunisia, including haplogroups L2a and L3b. This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 BP. These findings parallel the more recent findings of both archaeology and linguistics on the prehistory of Africa. The present work suggests that sub-Saharan contributions to North Africa have experienced several complex population processes after the occupation of the region by anatomically modern humans. Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.
Our findings are in accordance with other studies on Y-chromosome markers that have shown that the predominant Y-chromosome lineage in Berber communities is the subhaplogroup Elblblb (E-M81), which emerged in Africa, is specific to North African populations, and is almost absent in Europe, except in Iberia (Spain and Portugal) and Sicily. Molecular studies on the Y chromosome in North Africa are interpreted as indicating that the southern part of Africa, namely, the Horn/East Africa, was a major source of population in the Nile Valley and northwest Africa after the Last Glacial Maximum, with some migration into the Near East and southern Europe (Bosch et al. 2001; Underhill et al. 2001). Hence, contrary to the suggestion that mtDNA haplogroups were introduced mostly from Iberia, it seems that Y-chromosome markers have an eastern African origin with an ancient local evolution in North Africa. These observations are in agreement with the proposal that the ancient communities ancestral in language to more recent Berber communities absorbed a lot of females from the existing pre-Holocene populations. This would indicate that the North African populations arose from admixture rather than from local evolution, leading to an intermediate genetic structure between eastern sub-Saharan Africans and Eurasians. Rock paintings in North Africa that show people of different phenotypes living together are a strong argument for our hypothesis (Hachid 1982, 1992, 1998). [/IMG]
_________________________________
So according to Frigi in this study of Tunisian berbers there are two sources of L The L that he hypothesizes goes back around 20Kya is L3*
The other L he attributes to the Islamic slave trade
Do you know of any article that says a third element could have been during the Moorish empire?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: The point is that I didn't say North Africa, but rather Northwest African, with facial traits that one only finds amongst Moroccans. It does mean a thing when I can detect a heritage based on specific facial traits.
Most of the time we can see the difference between a Turk and Moroccan. I did hear a lot of Moroccans say that they phenotypically align with Latin Americans from Puerto Rico, Brazil the Dominican Republic. They didn't use anthological definitions, but that was the sauce of it.
Yes we have our own phenotypes and look quite distinct but still she's not typical and again what's your point ? Myself got mistaken as latino many times by americans it doesn't mean anything. The same way I can find europeans who look north african or afghans who look european.
The guy on the bottom, don't know who he is but he looks Ethiopian to me... he may have Taureg ancestry [/QB]
^^Saïd Aouita
Saïd Aouita
Saïd Aouita
^^ This is all the same man, Saïd Aouita, former Moroccan track and field athlete. He was born in 1959 in Kenitra, a coastal Moroccan city. His two eldest daughters, Soukaina and Sarah, were both named by the king of Morocco, Hassan II.
Russell, mouth closed look
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
This is Russel Simmons. He is a so-called african american.
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
Anyway, I wouldn't take antalas seriously on this topic. He didn't even know that Moors and Moriscos were slaves (he ran away after multiple collegiate level sources were provided to show that this was in fact the case), and he calls the work of a university history professor emeritus "fantasy" because the information hurts his feelings and dismantles his false worldviews
Just let him keep lying and crying about black people, and let him continue to misrepresent his DNA articles
He's pure pseudo
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
I literally answered you and you didn't even know the difference between moors and moriscos to begin with. you didn't even know they got expelled and that they were forbidden from settling in America.
You're a joke member of those israelite larpers enough said lol
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
Scroll back up and re-read the dialogue, I never mentioned Moriscos. You brought them up as a strawman argument and still failed because Moriscos were slaves too.
Originally, I specifically made reference to Moors, and I only provided sources about Moors. Then when you started saying that Moriscos were never enslaved, I provided sources proving that both Moors and Moriscos were slaves.
You are the joke, always lying about black and north african history.
You claim to be "Moroccan" or "North African", yet you didn't even know that Moors and Moriscos were slaves until Tazarah educated you.
That's what happens when unlearned and clueless colonizers try to supplant people who the history actually belongs to.
Now THAT is a joke if I've ever seen or heard one.
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: Some Boricuas do have Northwest African ancestry, it's minimum but it's there.
I had read some NA ancestry in Latinos is thought to come from Spanish people who have a little of this ancestry, not directly from North Africans E-M81 and U6 are also found in Spain and Portugal
Could be, however the Iberians (Spanish and Portuguese) did have African maritime on board, which landed first at the Dominican Republic and Puerto Rico.
quote: The history of Puerto Ricans of African descent begins with African men, known as libertos, who traveled with the Spanish Conquistadors in the invasion of the island during the Middle Passage.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: ???...ok and I never said "may had more" I posted enough studies go check the thread. There is no question about it if you think millions of slaves couldn't impact anyone in NA then you're obviously not rational.
Stop being in denial and adress all the threads I made.
I agree with you. Not sure what threads you've made, but here is a start to address some of your claims:
The Unknown People Who Mummified Their Dead Before The Ancient Egyptians | Timeline
quote:The general analysis (based on historical sources, epigraphy and archaeological evidence) focuses on transitions in town and country and economy from Roman to Vandal and to Byzantine rule and observing patterns and facets of continuity and change.
Background: The most recent Alu insertions reveal different series of characteristics such as stability that make them particularly suitable genetic markers for human biological studies.
Subjects and methods: Forty-seven Berbers from Sejnane and 33 from Takrouna were sampled. Alu insertion polymorphism was analysed using PCR with loci specific primers.
Results: A similar level of gene diversity was detected in Sejnane and Takrouna populations. PC results revealed genetic affinities between these two populations and some Eurasian populations ( Germany, Genova and Syria). In contrast, there is a differentiation between these two Berber communities and North African and Iberian populations.
Conclusion: The results of this study confirm the heterogeneity of Berbers in North Africa, which suggests their diverse origins. In the case of Sejnane and Takrouna populations, these results are in line with an ancient Euro Mediterranean background that has already been studied by archaeologists, particularly for the population of Sejnane.
(S. Frigi, H. Ennafaa, M. Ben Amor, L. Cherni and A. Ben Ammar-Elgaaied, Assessing human genetic diversity in Tunisian Berber populations by Alu insertion polymorphisms)
quote: "The aim of this article is to illustrate the process whereby certain Berber tribes during the eighth century A.D. substituted slaves from the Bilād al-Sūdān for Berber slaves from North Africa. From the outset, this conversion was influenced strongly, if not instigated, by Ibāḍī merchants until the slave trade became a predominantly Ibāḍī monopoly from the mid-eighth century onwards. The slave trade along the central Sudan route in particular provided the increase in the community's wealth and security, as well as the means for its establishment and expansion as a Muslim sect among diverse Berber tribes and, finally, as the origins for the subsequent, far-flung network of trans-Saharan trade."
As Muslim IIbadT-s, the Berbers, though later routed by the caliph's armies, nevertheless succeeded in transforming their status from slaves to slavers. Between the end of the seventh century and the middle of the eighth they created a trading network that tapped the regions south of the Sahara, the Bilad al-Suidan, as a new source for slaves. By monopolizing the supply of black slaves as well as the means by which they reached markets in North Africa, IbadT Berber traders created a secure economic base throughout the eastern and central Maghrib.1
[…]
Demand for North African slaves lay primarily in the east, where they were sold for different purposes in the markets of the central Islamic lands. The best known historically were the female singers, qayna, who entertained the caliphs themselves. Though the majority of slaves was barely noticed by history, an eleventh-century writer, Ibn Butlan, wrote about the singers that the ideal slave was a Berber woman who from the age of nine had spent three years in Madina, three in Mecca and then nine in Iraq.
The demand for North African slaves in eastern markets was initially fed by captives from the conquest.36 Later, slaves were either levied by taxation37 or purchased. After the second half of the eighth century, buying slaves in markets increasingly became the main source.
[…]
Slaves mentioned in this context, it should be noted, do not signify black Africans; black slaves from the sub-Sahara appear in North African markets only at the end of the seventh century. It is worth mentioning that their first use must have been either domestic or agricultural, since there is no mention of a 'black' military guard until the end of the ninth century.46 In earlier periods, for example during the Third Punic War, the North Africans seized had been white Berbers. In fact, ancient Latin sources cite but six black slaves, and they were Ethiopians.47 The Berbers whom 'Uqba captured were said to have been enslaved as a punishment for breaking faith with his predecessor, 'Amr b. al-'As. For this transgression, their enslavement was regarded as legally justified by the main-stream Islamic tradition.
[…]
Michael Brett has cautioned that this detailed account of Ibn 'Abd al- Hakam should not be read too literally. In a careful analysis, Robert Brunschvig, followed by Brett, proposed that this account is a later, apocryphal legal justification of the enslavement of Muslim Berbers.5" Both scholars reach this conclusion by taking into account the strict Maliki milieu of Ibn 'Abd al-Hakam in the late ninth century, when all schools had forbidden the enslavement of members of the Dar al-Islam. Ibn 'Abd al- Hakam thus would have sought to excuse 'Uqba ibn NafT"s enslavement of Muslim Berbers by depicting them as having broken faith, thereby clearly provoking the penalty of enslavement.
[…]
The grain of truth may be that Berber slaves seized in war as punishment, as well as those enslaved for payment of the jizya,54 figured prominently as tribute well past the earliest raids of 'Amr b. al-'As.55.
[…]
'Ubayd Allah b. al-Habhab (734-40), for example, is described as bending all his efforts to obtain them. It was this amir who sent a campaign to Sfis in the western Sahara, ostensibly to chastise its Berbers, from whom he levied a great booty - 'a multitude of prisoners.
[…]
Only a few years later, in the 740s, 'Abd al-Rahman b. HabTb, like him, was going farther and farther afield to satisfy the demand for slaves.63 Indeed, the demand for slaves insured that slaving flourished, and Arab amirs in the western Maghrib (Algeria) in the early eighth century persisted in regarding Berbers, even Muslim Berbers, as slave potential.
[…]
Two well-known and specific incidents of enslaving Muslim Berbers were recorded in the western Maghrib. One involved the ill-advised attempt by a newly appointed amir of Tangier to tattoo the hands of his predecessor's Berber guard. The guard viewed this order as a humiliation, tantamount to enslavement, and promptly revolted.64 The other involved a governor of Tangier who ignored the Muslim status of his Berber subjects and levied a fifth, or state's booty (khams), consisting of the city's people.65 This outrage raised a storm of protest from the population, who even dispatched a fruitless delegation to the caliph.66 The revolt that ensued in 73961 was the first uprising with a specific Kharijite association, and it also marked the earliest stirrings of what soon became the Ibadd revolt in the central Maghrib.
[…]
While there were subsequent instances of Berber enslavement by Aghlabid and even Fatimid generals in the ninth and tenth centuries,68 such seizures were the sporadic and harsh consequences of revolt rather than the deliberate hunting for Berber slaves. There were, of course, motives other than quotas and personal profits behind the round-ups of Berber slaves. Governors throughout the Maghrib may have been attempting to force the Berber tribes into submission and so enhance their own reputation as loyal servants in the eyes of the caliph by continually forwarding tribute.69.
[…]
The crisis came when the 'Abbasid Abu Ja'far al-Mansfir became caliph (754) and the governor 'Abd al-Rahman b. Habib failed to send the customary gift of slaves with his oath of loyalty, bai'a. Since Ifriqiya had become completely Muslim, he explained, it could no longer be a source of slaves, and thus the caliph must not expect what could no longer be had.77 The caliph's reply was menacing; 'Abd al-Rahman's days were numbered.78 Ifrlqiya, no longer able to supply the oriental demand, was a region stripped of its chief resource, and 'Abd al-Rahman b. al-Habib's authority as governor of Ifriqiya collapsed in 756. Consequently, by the time the 'Abbasid general Muhammad Ibn al-Ash'ath was sent to recover the situation in 762-3, Berber and Ibadi interests were tightly.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: So according to Frigi in this study of Tunisian berbers there are two sources of L
The L that he hypothesizes goes back around 20Kya is L3*
The other L he attributes to the Islamic slave trade
Do you know of any article that says a third element could have been during the Moorish empire?
The Moors came out of the whole Northwest Africa going all the way into Senegambia. The Tuareg spread Islam into West Africa. If correct, the Songhai empire came out of he Almoravid dynasty.
quote: Like the North African Imazighen, the Ṣanhājah were already to some extent Islamized, and they shortly found in a militant, puritanical version of Islam the means to eliminate their differences and to unite in the movement known to history as the Almoravids. In the middle of the 11th century they began to expand into the productive lands on either side of the western Sahara, and it would seem that later in the century Ghana became dominated by them.
Lyingass the misquoting troll in digital blackface is trying to lend some assistance to antalas by referencing a decree from the year 1501 which says Moors were not allowed into the americas...
Let's add some context:
"...”The decree had little effect,” adds historian Toby Green in Inquisition: The Reign of Fear. Bribes and forged papers could get Jews to the New World with its greater opportunities. Slave traders largely ignored the order because West Africa Muslims often were more literate and skilled in trades, and therefore more valuable, than their non-Muslim counterparts. Ottoman and North Africans captives from the Mediterranean region, usually called Turks and Moors, respectively, were needed to row Caribbean galleys or perform menial duties for their Spanish overlords in towns and on plantations."
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: Anyway, I wouldn't take antalas seriously on this topic. He didn't even know that Moors and Moriscos were slaves (he ran away after multiple collegiate level sources were provided to show that this was in fact the case), and he calls the work of a university history professor emeritus "fantasy" because the information hurts his feelings and dismantles his false worldviews
Just let him keep lying and crying about black people, and let him continue to misrepresent his DNA articles
He's pure pseudo
Perhaps this is of assistance?
quote: Definition
Concerning the history of Islam on the Caribbean island of Puerto Rico. Deals with the introduction of Islam to the island and how this can be determined through primary and secondary sources. Examines Iberian and West African Islamic histories and demonstrates how Spanish royal decrees indicate a significant Muslim presence among the enslaved Africans in the Hispanophone Caribbean with a focus on Puerto Rico.
Introduction
Some sources wrongly claim that Islam was first introduced to Puerto Rico by Palestinian migrants in the late 1950s early 1960s after the declaration of Israel. In actuality, Islam was introduced to Puerto Rico as early as 1493 (and some sources cite the introduction as occurring earlier).
Islam was carried across the Mediterranean and the Atlantic by Spaniards, who were forced to take on the Christian faith yet remained Muslim in their own right, and by Africans, who were forced to come to the Americas yet maintained their faith and sense of identity...
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: I provided sources proving that both Moors and Moriscos were slaves.
So what's significant about this? or are these just random facts you are throwing around as you discover them?
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
^ Everybody pay attention to the attempt at changing the topic after the false narrative about "Moors not being sent to America" has been debunked.
The troll avoids acknowledging the fact that they were pushing a false narrative, and the fact that they were attacking credible Historians/sources that have produced work on the topic.
Not to mention the troll's personal attacks on myself.
*** The significance is that antalas falsely claimed that Moors (and Moriscos) were never slaves, and he also falsely asserted that no Moors had been sent to America.
Both of those positions have been thoroughly debunked.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
I said what I said, a lot of Moroccans denounce that it's due to slavery.
When we look at the admixture we can trace recent mixture back to Senegambia in most cases, and that is for a good reason. Senegambia was part of what we know as the moorish empire.
what are the haplogroup frequencies percentages in Morocco that are common to Senegambians?
Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
Map showing the regions where Andalusi "Moriscos" settled following their expulsion from Spain in the early 17th c.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah:
"...”The decree had little effect,” adds historian Toby Green in Inquisition: The Reign of Fear. Bribes and forged papers could get Jews to the New World with its greater opportunities. Slave traders largely ignored the order because West Africa Muslims often were more literate and skilled in trades, and therefore more valuable, than their non-Muslim counterparts. Ottoman and North Africans captives from the Mediterranean region, usually called Turks and Moors, respectively, were needed to row Caribbean galleys or perform menial duties for their Spanish overlords in towns and on plantations."
what is the difference between your version of a Moor and Anatalas version of a Moor?
We need to know this to see if you have any idea what a Moor is while you make statements about them.
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: Everybody pay attention to the attempt at changing the topic after the false narrative about "Moors not being sent to America" has been debunked.
This thread has nothing to do with people being sent to America
that was your excursion (troll distraction)
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: I'm not aware of any "north africans" (antalas's version of north africans) that were sent as slaves to america
Yes, the numbers of North Africans brought to the Americas was probably very small and Jews a tiny fraction of that Some scholars however estimate that as many as 30% of the African slaves brought to the U.S., from West and Central African countries like Gambia and Cameroon, were Muslim.
But yes apparently some North African "Moors" may have been slaves to the Americans but why are we supposed to care about that in a thread about possible culture similarities between Amazigh, Greeks, Bedouins and Kurds ?
What happened you quit being a Hebrew Israelite and joined the Moorish Science Temple?
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: Everybody pay attention to the attempt at changing the topic after the false narrative about "Moors not being sent to America" has been debunked.
Don't be ridiculous this thread has nothing to do with people being sent to America, read the thread title
you are the one on the troll detour
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
People were discussing North Africans and Moors before I even provided input. "Moors" was specifically mentioned twice before I even commented.
I produced a source saying that a negro presence is what constitutes being a Moor, which is completely on topic.
Antalas countered by arguing that Moors were not negroes, I produced another source showing that Moors were sent to america as slaves, further demonstrating that they were "negroes".
Antalas argued that Moors were never enslaved and never sent to america, I produced even more sources showing that Moors were enslaved and sent to America.
You tried to help antalas promote his pseudo version of history and you failed miserably right along with him and you got exposed.
Stop trying to act like I just came and randomly changed the subject, it's all right there for anyone to go back and read on their own.
I don't identify as a Moor but anyone who knows a little something about history knows that in a lot of cases they were the same people, they just had different religions.
I don't have time to give you a history lesson everyday, you're a lying troll who gets off on pretending to be a black woman on the internet.
You are psuedo.
"Moors, a black race of Africa, IV. xiii. 29 ; an account of their origin in Palestine, and migration westward, IV. X. 13 ff. ; driven away from Carthage, IV. X. 27, 28 ; possess themselves of much of Libya,..."
"Procopius: History of the wars, Books III and IV (Vandalic War)" by Procopius, with an english translation by H. B. Dewing, page 479 (1916) Havard University Press
I produced another source showing that Moors were sent to america as slaves, further demonstrating that they were "negroes".
lol
it took you 3 days of being asked for you to say Moors were Palestinian Negroes
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
1. My first comment in this thread was only 2 days ago (august 8th). It has not even been 3 days.
2. I made it very clear 2 days ago on august 8th that the Moors were "negroes" according to the sources I was referencing.
Nevertheless, you repeatedly continued to ask me what I thought Moors were and I repeatedly ignored you because I had already made it clear, and because you are a troll.
Here's a screenshot from august 8th (2 days ago) of me saying the Moors were "negroes", and also a screenshot of antalas quoting me saying it, as proof that I didn't go back to edit the comment.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
ok 2 days of asking it took you to figure out if "Moor" means "a Negro" of any sort or if it means a people from a specific place and time
You are not fooling anybody We (not including you) have been discussing Moors for years on this site review your scriptures on humility
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
A screenshot was just produced showing that I said Moors were "negroes" 2 days ago
Antalas, the person who I was actually going back and forth with, had no problem understanding what I was arguing and knew exactly what my position was.
Perhaps, the issue is yourself.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
I know, three's a crowd I get it it was only 2 days not 3 you knew next to nothing about Moors, my bad
now go play with Antalas
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: you knew next to nothing about Moors, my bad
Says the troll who tried to help push the false narrative that no Moors were sent to America.... rofl.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: you knew next to nothing about Moors, my bad
Says the troll who tried to help push the false narrative that no Moors were sent to America.... rofl.
quote me where I say no Moors went to America
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
Quote me saying that you said no Moors went to america.
Just give up already, troll
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah:
Let's add some context:
"...”The decree had little effect,” adds historian Toby Green in Inquisition: The Reign of Fear. Bribes and forged papers could get Jews to the New World with its greater opportunities. Slave traders largely ignored the order because West Africa Muslims often were more literate and skilled in trades, and therefore more valuable, than their non-Muslim counterparts. Ottoman and North Africans captives from the Mediterranean region, usually called Turks and Moors, respectively, were needed to row Caribbean galleys or perform menial duties for their Spanish overlords in towns and on plantations."
North Africans captives from the Mediterranean region, usually called Turks and Moors, respectively, were needed to row Caribbean galleys or perform menial duties for their SPANISH overlords in towns and on plantations."
Sure it's possible with the Trans Atlantic Slave trade and all the European countries involved to assume possible a few Moors might have been caught up as slaves in it along with masses of West and Central Africans (and a smaller number amount of Malagasy from the East)
But so what?
And to suggest it was a lot of North African Moors being sent, to not Spanish plantations in the Caribbean but who were sent to the United States you would have to have some documented evidence of it to prove that the numbers were significant
And again you keep replying trying to keep your off topic derail attempt alive with at the first page of the OP It's about tattoos !!!
That means you're the troll, so stop pretending you aren't want me to shut up? stop replying
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
Lyingass deflecting and hippity hopping from strawman to strawman
The decree that you posted to counter my claims was specifically dealing with how Moors were not allowed to be sent to America, so of course the source I referenced about the decree being ignored by slave traders was in reference to that specific decree, which was dealing with america.
My goodness.
Like I said, Moors were being discussed long before I even commented in here.
If I'm a troll, is this how you deal with "trolls"? By gaslighting and posting misleading information?
Yeah, I think you're done now.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Spazarah: deflecting and hippity hopping from strawman to strawman
The decree that you posted to counter my claims was specifically dealing with how Moors were not allowed to be sent to America, so of course the source I referenced about the decree being ignored by slave traders was in reference to that specific decree, which was dealing with america.
My goodness.
Like I said, Moors were being discussed long before I even commented in here.
If I'm a troll, is this how you deal with "trolls"? By gaslighting and posting misleading information?
Letter from the Spanish monarchs Ferdinand and Isabel to Nicolas Ovando, Spain, 20 March 1503, courtesy of the Archivo General de Indias, Sevilla, Spain. The monarchs, on Ovando's recommendation, ban the trans-Atlantic slave trade. In the fourth paragraph from the top, the Spanish monarchs address Ovando’s concern that escaped black slaves might inspire the American Indians on Hispaniola to revolt and, on Ovando’s recommendation, Ferdinand and Isabel ban the trans-Atlantic slave trade.
"Nicolas Ovando was the first political leader to oversee the trans-Atlantic slave trade to the Americas when he imported black slaves from Spain to the island of Hispaniola. "
When this article says "America" and mentions "American Indians" they are referring to the Americas and specifically as stated in the document > Hispaniola
That is the old name from the island which has both Haiti and the Dominican republic on it, under the dominion of Columbus with support form the King of Spain
and form the opeining first paragraph from your Smithsonian article:
quote: On Christmas Day, 1522, 20 enslaved Muslim Africans used machetes to attack their Christian masters on the island of Hispaniola, then governed by the son of Christopher Columbus. The assailants, condemned to the grinding toil of a Caribbean sugar plantation, killed several Spanish and freed a dozen enslaved Native Americans in what was the first recorded slave revolt in the New World.
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
"The Jamestown settlement that followed adopted a policy similar to that of the Spanish with regards to Muslims. Christian baptism was a requirement for entering the country, even for enslaved Africans, who first arrived in Virginia in 1619. In 1682, the Virginia colony went a step further, ordering that all “Negroes, Moors, mulattoes or Indians who and whose parentage and native countries are not Christian” automatically be deemed slaves."
******* have a goodnight.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: "The Jamestown settlement that followed adopted a policy similar to that of the Spanish with regards to Muslims. Christian baptism was a requirement for entering the country, even for enslaved Africans, who first arrived in Virginia in 1619. In 1682, the Virginia colony went a step further, ordering that all “Negroes, Moors, mulattoes or Indians who and whose parentage and native countries are not Christian” automatically be deemed slaves."
“AN ACT TO REPEALE A FORMER LAW MAKEING INDIANS AND OTHERS FFREE” (1682)"
excerpt:
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid that all servants except Turkes and Moores, whilest in amity with his majesty which from and after publication of this act shall be brought or imported into this country, either by sea or land, whether Negroes, Moors, Mollattoes or Indians, who and whose parentage and native country are not christian at the time of their first purchase of such servant by some christian, although afterwards, and before such their importation and bringing into this country, they shall be converted to the christian faith; and all Indians which shall hereafter be sold by our neighbouring Indians, or any other trafiqueing with us as for slaves are hereby adjudged, deemed and taken, and shall be adjudged, deemed and taken to be slaves to all intents Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
Oh so now Moor doesn't mean Moor.
Kinda like how black didn't mean black?
Just pulling stuff out your *ss now eh?
LOL
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: Oh so now Moor doesn't mean Moor.
First you were supporting the idea that Moors were never sent as slaves to america.
Then I showed they were, and you tried to argue it wasn't america AKA the colonies
Then I showed they were sent to the colonies as slaves, and now you're saying they were a different kind of Moor.
You're full of sh because you tried to bs and gaslight and play all those games instead of just coming out at first and saying "yeah so-called Moors were sent to america as slaves but not the Moors you are referring to"
Because you know that's not what being talked about here
According to C.A. Weslager, History Professor Emeritus, the descendants of the Moors who invaded Spain in 711 AD were sent to America as slaves.
"In 711 A.D., the Moors crossed the Straits of Gibraltar and began their conquests on the Spanish peninsula. It was during these conquests that many were captured and their descendants sold to the slave traders who brought them in shackles to America."
"Delaware's Forgotten Folk: The Story of the Moors and Nanticokes" by C.A. Weslager, page 4 (2006) University of Pennsylvania Press
***** And, this source from Smithsonian is speaking specifically about Moors from Spain being sent to america as slaves. Not any of the BS you are talking about.
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: "The Jamestown settlement that followed adopted a policy similar to that of the Spanish with regards to Muslims. Christian baptism was a requirement for entering the country, even for enslaved Africans, who first arrived in Virginia in 1619. In 1682, the Virginia colony went a step further, ordering that all “Negroes, Moors, mulattoes or Indians who and whose parentage and native countries are not Christian” automatically be deemed slaves."
First you were supporting the idea that Moors were never sent as slaves to america.
Again, quote me saying that
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
.
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
You literally posted the decree from 1501 saying that Moors weren't allowed to come to america and you made it all fancy looking as if you were proving a point
Now you're trying to play dumb LOL why else would you post that?
Little did you know, historians note that the decree was largely ignored by slave traders and that Moors were in fact brought to America as slaves
Pure comedy
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
“AN ACT TO REPEALE A FORMER LAW MAKEING INDIANS AND OTHERS FFREE” (1682)"
excerpt:
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid that all servants except Turkes and Moores, whilest in amity with his majesty which from and after publication of this act shall be brought or imported into this country, either by sea or land, whether Negroes, Moors, Mollattoes or Indians, who and whose parentage and native country are not christian at the time of their first purchase of such servant by some christian, although afterwards, and before such their importation and bringing into this country, they shall be converted to the christian faith; and all Indians which shall hereafter be sold by our neighbouring Indians, or any other trafiqueing with us as for slaves are hereby adjudged, deemed and taken, and shall be adjudged, deemed and taken to be slaves to all intents Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
Is that the best you can do?
I've provided several sources and they all corroborate each other
You on the other hand have been gaslighting and creating strawman after strawman and each time you get debunked
It's sad, I blame myself for actually going back and forth with someone like you
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
“AN ACT TO REPEALE A FORMER LAW MAKEING INDIANS AND OTHERS FFREE” (1682)"
excerpt:
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid that all servants except Turkes and Moores, whilest in amity with his majesty which from and after publication of this act shall be brought or imported into this country, either by sea or land, whether Negroes, Moors, Mollattoes or Indians, who and whose parentage and native country are not christian at the time of their first purchase of such servant by some christian, although afterwards, and before such their importation and bringing into this country, they shall be converted to the christian faith; and all Indians which shall hereafter be sold by our neighbouring Indians, or any other trafiqueing with us as for slaves are hereby adjudged, deemed and taken, and shall be adjudged, deemed and taken to be slaves to all intents ___________________________________
Jamestown and other early American colonies have census records
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
Very few moors and moriscos reached america and some even got sent back to Europe. Tazarah seems to confuse maghrebi slaves with moriscos; the former being sporadically enslaved due to raids along the moroccan coasts or captured after they tried to enslaved iberian coastal populations while the latter mostly involved recent converts of iberian origin (even though most secretly remained attached to their muslim faith) who ultimately got expelled (of course some ended up being enslaved but not "voluntarily" as Taz implied but after rebellions like the one that occured in the Alpujaras) and most of the time these slaves were not sent to America.
Also in some cases in New Spain and its dependencies, "moros" and "moriscos" could designate for the former muslims from malaysia/indonesia/the philipines and for the latter a specific caste of mixed individuals (75% spanish 25% black).
Here from a paper on the subject by M. Louis Cardaillac :
quote:These provisions are linked to both a religious and political concern.The Spaniards didn't want to transport to America the problems which were theirs in the Peninsula ; they protected themselves so that the conflicts which occurred in Spain and which they thought to resolve with measures such as the expulsion of the Jews and the development of the Inquisition. Spain, defending a unitary point of view, will therefore apply a selective policy of the emigrants.
quote:It was Charles V who first ordered, from Valladolid on September 15, 1522, to prohibit the access of the Indies to the "conversos" and, to those that we called a few decades later "moriscos" and that for the time being are designated under the name of "nuevos convertidos de moros" 2. Neither they nor their descendants can come to settle in the New World, without the express permission of the king : : «Ninguno nuevamente convertido a nuestra Santa Fe Catôlica de Moro o Judio, ni sus hijos, pueden pasar a las Indias sin expresa licencia nuestra»
quote:The Emperor recalls that the access of this kingdom is forbidden to the new converts of Moors and Jews, and to the condemned of the Inquisition, under penalty of confiscation of their goods ; so that this decision is finally followed of effect, it indicates various measures to be taken: this letter must be published by the town crier in the cities and the villages of colonization; immediately afterwards, each Spaniard will have to come to show to the authorities his license of embarkation and the necessary proofs (recaudos) to prove his identity and to justify his itinerary to the Indies. The men of justice will have to be zealous in this inspection; any negligence will be sanctioned with "doscientos pesos de by "doscientos pesos de buen oroi". On the same date, a letter was sent to the Casa de Contrataciôn of Seville to ask him to redouble vigilance towards these "prohibidos" 8. These restrictions are going to be accentuated with Philip II. In his first "real cédula", devoted to this affair and given in Valladolid the 13 jullet 1559, he aims the "moros y judios", but also, new fact, the "luteranos".
quote:That same year, 1559, the king sent a "cedula" to all the prelates of the Indies, asking them to send a report to the court on the possible presence in their dioceses of new converts of Moors and Jews and Lutherans. The prelates were to punish those they found and send them back to Spain to be handed over to the Inquisition. We have here two characteristics of the action of Philip II in this field: on the one hand, it will bring a meticulous care to verify the execution of its decisions and to follow the detail of it, on the other hand, he will extend the field of the prohibitions, first to the Lutherans, as we have just seen, and then to some other categories and then to some other categories of people, for example to the gypsies, whose way of life for example, might be a bad example for the Indians 2.
quote:The president of the Audiencia Real answered the king that the meaning of the word "morisco" had evolved in New Spain and that in his jurisdiction only meant the son of a Spanish and a "mestizo, mulata blanca". In consequence, Francisco Castellanos "no padece esta nota" and should not be expelled
quote:In 1531, the Queen recalls that it is forbidden to bring to India white slaves "berberiscos". There could be no exceptions without her express authorization. In all the cases where a master will pass with slaves, he will have to specify slaves, he must specify their origin 8
quote:The king agrees with the Audiencia of Mexico: from now on, he will not give any more licenses of this kind; moreover, all Moriscos as well as Berbers, free or or slaves should be sent back to Seville.
quote: We must also speak of the Philippine Islands, since they were under the jurisdiction of the court of Mexico City, which sent a clerk of the Inquisition to Manila in 1575. In these territories, it will also be necessary to be protected against Islam; of many "moros", Muslims from Malaysia and Borneo, established themselves there and imposed themselves to the natives. Various cases of soldiers, in particular Andalusian, are reported to the court of the Inquisition of Mexico City by the clerk; they are reproached to like to be with the "moros" and to take part in their festivals
Posting a wall of irrelevant text is not going to help you.
Antalas said:
1. Moors were never slaves
2. Moriscos were never slaves (Even though I never mentioned Moriscos... this was a strawman argument)
3. No moors were ever sent to america as slaves
Each of those false claims were debunked. Notice how the narrative is now beginning to slightly change...
Rofl.
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
The context of this Smithsonian article is clearly talking about the Moors in Spain, how there was a decree banning them from America, but that the decree was largely ignored by slave traders and Moors ultimately ended up as slaves in America.
Completely debunks the false narrative antalas has been trying to push.
He'll probably start calling it "fantasy" soon, and will begin to accuse the Historian of LARPing.
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
Again calm yourself and take the time to read what I posted. The fact that some managed to reach America despite the decrees doesn't mean we're dealing with large populations of moriscos settling there. The estimates are ridiculously low and I don't see why you obsess over this or what you're trying to conclude with this.
Adress the quotes I posted do not try to avoid them by calling them "irrelevant text".
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
What you're doing now is called damage control.
You made a handful of false claims and they were all easily debunked.
Either you were intentionally lying about these things or you were simply uneducated on the topic.
Either way, the bs you're saying now runs contradictory to what you were originally saying.
"Moors were never slaves"
"Moriscos were never slaves"
Then you tried to assert that no Moors ever reached America because of that silly out of context decree you referenced
Now after the sources come out, you're trying to repackage your rhetoric.
Rofl
Does this sound like "only some" came to america?
"Slave traders largely ignored the order because West Africa Muslims often were more literate and skilled in trades, and therefore more valuable, than their non-Muslim counterparts. Ottoman and North Africans captives from the Mediterranean region, usually called Turks and Moors, respectively, were needed to row Caribbean galleys or perform menial duties for their Spanish overlords in towns and on plantations." Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: What you're doing now is called damage control.
You made a handful of false claims and they were all easily debunked.
Either you were intentionally lying about these things or you were simply uneducated on the topic.
Either way, the bs you're saying now runs contradictory to what you were originally saying.
"Moors were never slaves"
"Moriscos were never slaves"
Then you tried to assert that no Moors ever reached America because of that silly out of context decree you referenced
Now after the sources come out, you're trying to repackage your rhetoric.
Rofl
Does this sound like "only some" came to america?
"Slave traders largely ignored the order because West Africa Muslims often were more literate and skilled in trades, and therefore more valuable, than their non-Muslim counterparts. Ottoman and North Africans captives from the Mediterranean region, usually called Turks and Moors, respectively, were needed to row Caribbean galleys or perform menial duties for their Spanish overlords in towns and on plantations."
Where did I say "moors were never slaves" ? I said moriscos never got enslaved except the ones who rebelled (before their expulsion) against the spanish crown. Like I said it seems you confuse moors from North Africa with moriscos.
I posted quotes which show that both moors/berbers and moriscos were forbidden from setting foot in America and that the inquisition constantly chased the few who were there and then had to bring them back to Spain. I also showed you that Moros/moriscos in America didn't necessarily designate proper moors/moriscos from the old world but instead muslims from south-east asia and a specific mixed caste.
As far as your quote is concerned, I shouldn't have to remind you that "west africa muslims" does not designate moors or north africans but simply muslims from west africa and as for the galleys or "menial duties" that's in total contradiction with what I posted and wouldn't make any sense since it was forbidden by law again pay attention to the quotes I posted.
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
So you acknowledge the fact that you bringing up Moriscos was a strawman argument, and that I never mentioned Moriscos. Correct?
Secondly, the context of the article is clearly making reference to Moors who at one point had ties to Spain.
Not some random west africans who just happened to be muslim.
This is pure comedy at this point.
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
You said Moriscos never got enslaved and you never admit to any of them being slaves, not even the ones who rebelled, you flat out denied any of them were slaves. So you're lying. You never acknowledged any of them being slaves until I started bringing out the sources.
You also said the only north africans sent to america were canary islanders, now you're repackaging your argument.
Rofl
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: So you acknowledge the fact that you bringing up Moriscos was a strawman argument, and that I never mentioned Moriscos. Correct?
Secondly, the context of the article is clearly making reference to Moors who at one point had ties to Spain.
Not some random west africans who just happened to be muslim.
This is pure comedy at this point.
SMH do you at least know from whom moriscos descend ?
You talked about moors being sent to America ...America was discovered in 1492 therefore could only be sent there after this date and who were the muslims in Spain at that time period ? That's right : moriscos. So there is no strawman you simply don't know much about the history of this region.
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
^^^ what a gaslighting clown. The Smithsonian article I referenced several times already makes mention of Moors (not Moriscos) being slaves in virginia in 1619.
Yawn
Then there's also this:
"FIFTEENTH AND SIXTEENTH CENTURY SOURCES reveal the presence of enslaved "Turks" from Eastern Europe and the Ottoman Empire. North African Muslims (“Moors”) and Berbers (“berberiscos”) represented another significant component of early modern Iberia's slave populations, as did moriscos in Spain, or mouriscos in Portugal (this term referred to Iberians who had converted from Islam to Christianity—in many cases by force—and their descendants)."
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: ^^^ what a gaslighting clown. The Smithsonian article I referenced several times already makes mention of Moors (not Moriscos) being slaves in virginia in 1619.
Yawn
These were not moors but west africans as reported in the link your article provide :
quote: Virginia’s first Africans arrived at Point Comfort, on the southern tip of the Virginia peninsula, late in August 1619. There, “20. and odd Negroes” or more from the English ship White Lion were sold in exchange for food and some were transported to Jamestown, where they were sold again. Three or four days later another English ship, the Treasurer, arrived in Virginia, where its captain sold two or three additional Africans. Historians have long believed these Africans to have come to Virginia from the Caribbean, but Spanish records suggest they had been captured in a Spanish-controlled area of West Central Africa. They probably were Kimbundu-speaking people, and many of them may have had at least some knowledge of Catholicism. While aboard the São João Bautista bound for Mexico, they were stolen by the White Lion and the Treasurer.
smh...
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
Pay close attention to the parts in bold:
"Slave traders largely ignored the order because West Africa Muslims often were more literate and skilled in trades, and therefore more valuable, than their non-Muslim counterparts. Ottoman and North Africans captives from the Mediterranean region, usually called Turks and Moors, respectively, were needed to row Caribbean galleys or perform menial duties for their Spanish overlords in towns and on plantations."
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: Pay close attention to the parts in bold:
"Slave traders largely ignored the order because West Africa Muslims often were more literate and skilled in trades, and therefore more valuable, than their non-Muslim counterparts. Ottoman and North Africans captives from the Mediterranean region, usually called Turks and Moors, respectively, were needed to row Caribbean galleys or perform menial duties for their Spanish overlords in towns and on plantations."
See I expose your lies now you revert to this while I never denied some moors got enslaved that's a well established fact there are many examples here one :
quote:In 1471 the Portuguese attacked Asila and carried more than five thousand of its inhabitants into slavery.140 Al- Tazi, a contemporary poet (d. 1514), described the plight of the captives as they were dragged away by their Iberian captors, at the same time that he called on his countrymen for action and for avenging the desecration that had befallen the slaves
Edmund Burke, Morocco and the Near East : Reflections on some basic differences, pp. 61
But again these moorish slaves were not sent to America.
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
Oh you're exposing my lies? LOL
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: You said Moriscos never got enslaved and you never admit to any of them being slaves, not even the ones who rebelled, you flat out denied any of them were slaves. So you're lying. You never acknowledged any of them being slaves until I started bringing out the sources.
You also said the only north africans sent to america were canary islanders, now you're repackaging your argument.
Rofl
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
Oh so the Moorish slaves weren't sent to america, even though the article I keep referencing literally says Moors were slaves in america... LOL
I think this is the hardest I've ever owned you
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
You implied that both moors and moriscos got massively enslaved and sent to America. I posted papers showing that no such thing ever occured. You then starting to lie about some claims I apparently made like "moors were never slaves" and I then exposed your lies and lack of historical knowledge since you didn't even know who moriscos were ...you also avoided a paper dedicated to the problem of moriscos and moors in America calling it "irrelevant text".
Now since you don't really have anything consistent you play on some little details because I haven't been enough explicit (which is my mistake since I assumed you knew at least some stuff about moriscos but apparently no).
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: You implied that both moors and moriscos got massively enslaved and sent to America. I posted papers showing that no such thing ever occured. You then starting to lie about some claims I apparently made like "moors were never slaves" and I then exposed your lies and lack of historical knowledge since you didn't even know who moriscos were ...you also avoided a paper dedicated to the problem of moriscos and moors in America calling it "irrelevant text".
Now since you don't really have anything consistent you play on some little details because I haven't been enough explicit (which is my mistake since I assumed you knew at least some stuff about moriscos but apparently no).
I never said anything about Moriscos you damn liar, you brought that up as a strawman argument. All of the sources I originally posted were talking about Moors then you brought up Moriscos and even when you brought up Moriscos you started lying about them too.
First you said Moriscos were never slaves, now after I provide sources showing they were, you're saying "oh well some of them were slaves"
LOL
And Moors were slaves in america, as the sources I've referenced clearly say. And the sources aren't talking about west africans who just happened to be muslims. They're talking about literal Moors who had ties to Spain that were sent as slaves to the 13 colonies
I don't get it, what do people like you get from lying your ass off on the internet? Like seriously? You, lioness, always lying your ass off and trying to gaslight people, as if other users aren't going to read this for themselves and see that you're full of sh
This is beyond sad.
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
Not to mention the fact that you tried to say no Moors were ever in America because of that decree; then when I show a source where a Historian says the decree was largely ignored, and that slave traders did in fact bring Moors as slaves to america, your new argument is "oh well some came but that doesn't mean anything"
You're no better than lioness. A lying, gaslighting joke
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: I never said anything about Moriscos you damn liar, you brought that up as a strawman argument. All of the sources I originally posted were talking about Moors then you brought up Moriscos and even when you brought up Moriscos you started lying about them too.
It seems you still don't get why I brought them up so again :
"You talked about moors being sent to America ...America was discovered in 1492 therefore could only be sent there after this date and who were the muslims in Spain at that time period ? That's right : moriscos. So there is no strawman you simply don't know much about the history of this region."
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: First you said Moriscos were never slaves, now after I provide sources showing they were, you're saying "oh well some of them were slaves"
LOL
And Moors were slaves in america, as the sources I've referenced clearly say. And the sources aren't talking about random west africans who just happened to muslims. They're talking about literal Moors who had ties to Spain that were sent as slaves in the 13 colonies
I don't get it, what do people like you get from lying your ass off on the internet? Like seriously? You, lioness, always lying your ass off and trying to gaslight people, as if other users aren't going to read this for themselves and see that you're full of sh
This is beyond sad.
I said moriscos never got enslaved (or voluntarily like you claimed) except a ridiculous low amount of them after some rebellions which shouldn't even be explicited since that's common sense if you had at least a minimum of historical knowledge on that period. Like I said and showed almost all of them got expelled not enslaved.
Secondly you lied about me claiming I said moors never got enslaved and I posted quotes clearly demonstrating that if there ever was moors/moriscos in America their numbers was surely very low and the spanish state was continuously working against their presence there that's why the state didn't and couldn't send "moorish slaves" there. I showed you that you and the author of your article should be careful too since finding reports of "moros" "moriscos" is not necessarily evidence of the presence of such people there since it could also designate people who clearly had nothing to do with moors/moriscos of the Old World.
Also let's put aside those details what's your point with this ? What are you trying to say ?
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
Here is just one of many examples of antalas lying his ass off and trying to gaslight after getting debunked and proven wrong:
*** This is antalas on 8/8/2022 saying that no Moriscos were ever enslaved, and that they only got expelled.
*** Now after being shown historical documentation that proved him dead wrong, here is antalas a couple of hours ago (8/11/22) changing his argument, and lying about what he originally said.
Now he's saying he did acknowledge the fact that Moriscos got enslaved before their expulsion, which completely contradicts his original claim from 8/8/22.
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
Funny thing is I never brought up or mentioned Moriscos, he brought them up as a strawman argument and it backfired.
Clearly, antalies is not to be taken seriously.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
People should be careful using the word "Moor" because "Moor" after the invasion of Spain by Muslim invaders the word began to encompass a whole host of non-Africans, like Saqalibba, Arabs and even Spainish converts, Then you had folks in the Swahili States being called Moors by Spanish and Portuguese traders.
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: [They're talking about literal Moors who had ties to Spain that were sent as slaves to the 13 colonies
Ok this is news to me, where/When did SPANISH Moors get sent to the 13 English Colonies( and not the Spanish ones)....
Not saying its impossible but...Ive dont a lot of research into early Colonial American history...
....
Would the Spanish Crown allow the English to enslave their people (even if they're Muslim)
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Which early English people would've wanted Spanish Moors(Who were most likely Literate, and skilled in Warfare) in their colonies???
Were the Moors even numerially significant in Spain after the Expuslion...and further they'd HAVE to be Nasrid Moors as that's the last Muslim entity to Rule in Spain..... Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
Alright I see tazarah keep turning in circle and do not adress anything of what I wrote simply exposing his childish mindset.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
In discussing the physical appearance of the Moors, as well as the Nanticoke Indian descendants to whom some Moors are related,
C. A. Weslager wrote:
quote:certain facial characteristics...set them apart from both whites and Negroes. The darkest have brown skins and the lightest resemble their white neighbors in complexion. Blonde, red and sandy hair may be seen, but the majority have brown or black hair, either wavy or straight and coarse like that of the full blooded American Indian. Kinky or woolen hair...is not often seen...straight noses and thin lips are typical. Eye colors range from grays and blues to dark brown and black. Many of the mixed bloods have sharply chiseled features, swarthy complexions and straight hair.... Others are distinctly Indian-like in appearance, having high and wide cheekbones, even among the same family. Light skinned Parent often have dark skinned children and vice versa.
No one has really been able to trace the precise origins of the Delaware Moors. Legend and historical hearsay have suggested possibilities. C. A. Weslager, in his book Delaware's Forgotten Folks, presents (in his own words) legends of three categories which he collected from Delaware Moors.7 One category of legend purports that the Moors originated sometime before the Revolutionary War through the founding of a colony along the Atlantic coast of the Delmarva peninsula by a group of dark skinned Spanish Moors. Through intermarriage with the local Indians come the people called Moors in Delaware and New Jersey.
A second category of legend Weslager refers to as pirate legends. These legends stated that Spanish or Moorish pirates, in the later eighteenth century, were shipwrecked off the Delaware coast in the Delaware Bay or near the Indian River Inlet. The shipwrecked men were taken in by the Nanticoke Indians and came to marry Indian women, thus beginning the mixed stock of Delaware Moors. Some versions of this legend considered the shipwrecked men as Spanish, French, or Moorish sailors and not buccaneers.
Weslager categorizes a third legend type, which he found most popular among the Moors, as romantic legend. In this legend type a beautiful woman and a dark-skinned slave or slaves are the central characters. The woman was wealthy, either Spanish or Irish, and lived on a plantation in southern Delaware. She purchased one male slave who turned out to have been a Spanish prince. They then fell in love and had children of dusky complexion. Not being accepted by the white community, the family sought associations elsewhere and consequently, mixed with the Indians in the vicinity of the plantation. Other modifications of this plot said that a similar women bought seven couples of Moorish slaves whose children intermarried with Indian descendants living on Indian River.
Historically, there is foundation for the legends of the pirate category. Piracy was common in the Delaware Bay from about 1685 to 1750, and references cite occurrences of Spanish and French pirates preying on ships that entered the Delaware Bay.8 William Kelly, a citizen of Lewes, Delaware, was captured and taken aboard a French pirate ship in 1747. According to him the pirate crew of one hundred and thirty members consisted of "some English, some Irish, and some Scotch, but the most part of them were Frenchmen and Spaniards."9 In 1717, Delaware authorities issued a proclamation stating that they were willing to grant pardon to privateers who surrendered to the law and gave up their looting careers.10 In these ways pirates could have ventured to settle along the Delaware coast and engendered the Moorish strains in the existing local population.
However, this does not account for the fact that most of the surnames of the Delaware Moors suggest English descent. One researcher, Donald VanLear Downs, has endeavored to trace the origins of the Delaware Moors through an expedition launched in the 1680's by Charles II of England to Tangiers in North Africa. Downs employed as sources extracts from the "Calendar of State Papers--Domestic, October 1683 to April 1684" filed in the British Museum in London, and an oral account he received from a Tangier historian, a Mr. Maxwell Blake. Downs asserted that the Moors in Delaware have English surnames because a number of Charles II's companies, when disbanded in 1684, set sail for America accompanied by Moorish women. They supposedly landed on an island in the Chesapeake Bay and named it Tangier Island.11 Down's assertions may explain how Moorish blood reached the region, but they do not offer explanation as to why no Moors presently inhabit Tangier Island, or why a migration occurred from this possible initial settlement to the Indian River, Woodland Beach, or Cheswold areas of Delaware.
Although the specific origins of the Delaware Moors is unclear, most scholars and the Moors themselves, have tended to come to the consensus that the group can be identified as being a racial mixture of the Indians who once occupied the Delmarva region (the Nanticokes and the Lenni Lenape), of whites of European descent, and of some unspecified African strain. Also agreed upon is that the Moors of Delaware have come to be related, by blood and marriage ties, to the Nanticoke Indian descendants of Indian River Hundred, Sussex County, Delaware.
__________________________
"It is offered not as a textbook nor as a scientific discussion, but merely as reading entertainment founded on the life history, social struggle, and customs of a little-known people."
Preface, Delaware's Forgotten Folk The Story of the Moors and Nanticokes By C. A. Weslager
Weslager discusses the various Delaware Moor legends, pirate ships etc, in the middle of page 27 and pages after in his book Delaware's Forgotten Folk here >
So if there was cultural evidence of Angolan place names and "voodoo rites"
where was the Islamic cultural evidence of Moors, people who could speak Arabic or North African Berber language or any cultural remnant of North African Muslims?
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Which early English people would've wanted Spanish Moors(Who were most likely Literate, and skilled in Warfare) in their colonies???
Were the Moors even numerially significant in Spain after the Expuslion...and further they'd HAVE to be Nasrid Moors as that's the last Muslim entity to Rule in Spain.....
Are you even reading the articles I posted or nah?
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: Alright I see tazarah keep turning in circle and do not adress anything of what I wrote simply exposing his childish mindset.
Nothing to say about the screenshots showing how you're a blatant liar, right?
You're just like lioness -- get caught in lies, then respond with a deflection or a long wall of text to avoid the fact that you got caught lying.
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
So easy, a grade schooler can do it! I suggest antalas, jari and lyingass all create accounts on this website and take this history course, since none of the other info I've shared seems to be understandable to you guys for some reason.
Tazarah MUST be making it all up, right? Even though he's shared a handful of different sources from credible and reputable historians all saying the same thing.
In grade school, the Moors are often mentioned in passingto refer to Muslim influences of early Spain. Yet, there is much more to the Moorish story, which expands into the Americas after colonization in the 16th century and up to the present day.
Moors and Early American History
...Elsewhere, the Moors are not viewed with nearly as much disdain. In North America, for instance, the Moors are a source of mythical ethnic pride among many groups. Some historical accounts hold that Sir Francis Drake freed Moorish slaves from the Spanish in the Caribbean and took them to settle the early colonies of the Carolinas. There, they became part of the Melungeon mixed ethnic group." Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Santiago Matamoros Slaying the Moors
Santiago Matamoros (English: Saint James the Moor-slayer)
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
^^^ Lyingass trying to focus on the irrelevant and MYTHICAL artwork now that his false narrative about Moors in america has once again been debunked
"The Moorish peoples, however, were regarded with disdain. The Spanish brought with them legends of Catholic saints who aided in the expulsion of Moorish Islam from Europe. In one prominent tale, Santiago, or Saint James, was a mythological figure who battled back the Moors at the fictional Battle of Clavijo. Santiago was known as Santiago Matamoros, or Slayer of Moors.
I can type in Jesus and only images of white men will pop up although we know that's not what he looked like
Each day you get debunked harder and harder and are forced to cling to another failed argument instead of just choosing to be quiet or admit you learned something new
Because you're a troll who is anti-fact when it comes to any history that shines a positive light on black people in america
Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: So easy, a grade schooler can do it! I suggest antalas, jari and lyingass all create accounts on this website and take this history course, since none of the other info I've shared seems to be understandable to you guys for some reason.
Tazarah MUST be making it all up, right? Even though he's shared a handful of different sources from credible and reputable historians all saying the same thing.
In grade school, the Moors are often mentioned in passingto refer to Muslim influences of early Spain. Yet, there is much more to the Moorish story, which expands into the Americas after colonization in the 16th century and up to the present day.
Moors and Early American History
...Elsewhere, the Moors are not viewed with nearly as much disdain. In North America, for instance, the Moors are a source of mythical ethnic pride among many groups. Some historical accounts hold that Sir Francis Drake freed Moorish slaves from the Spanish in the Caribbean and took them to settle the early colonies of the Carolinas. There, they became part of the Melungeon mixed ethnic group."
The only thing he reads is reddit and facebook
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Melungeons
Melungeons are an ethnic group of people from the Southeastern United States who descend from European and sub-Saharan Africans brought to America as slaves and indentured servants. This was in the mid-17th century before slavery and an example of early race-mixing. Historically, the Melungeons were associated with settlements in the Cumberland Gap area of central Appalachia, which includes portions of East Tennessee, Southwest Virginia, and eastern Kentucky. Tri-racial describes populations who claim to be of mixed European, African and Native American ancestry. Although there is no consensus on how many such groups exist, estimates range as high as 200
Legends
In spite of being culturally and linguistically similar to their European neighbors, these multi-racial families were of a sufficiently different physical appearance to provoke speculation as to their identity and origins. In the first half of the 19th century, the pejorative term "Melungeon" began to be applied to these families by local white (European-American) neighbors. Local "knowledge" or myths soon began to arise about them. According to historian Pat Elder, the earliest of these was that they were "Indian" (more specifically, "Cherokee").[9] Jack Goins, an identified Melungeon descendant and researcher, states that the Melungeons claimed to be both Indian and Portuguese. An example was "Spanish Peggy" Gibson, wife of Vardy Collins.
A few ancestors may have been of mixed Iberian (Spanish and/or Portuguese) and African origin. Historian Ira Berlin has noted that some early slaves and free blacks of the charter generation in the colonies were "Atlantic Creoles", mixed-race descendants of Iberian workers and African women from slave ports in Africa. Their male descendants grew up bilingual and accompanied Europeans as workers or slaves.[27] The majority of Melungeon early ancestors, who had migrated from Virginia over time, are of northern European and African ancestry, given the history of settlement in late 17th–early-18th century eastern Virginia. Later generations in Tennessee intermarried with descendants of Scotch-Irish immigrants who arrived in the mid- to late-18th century and settled in the backcountry before the American Revolution.
Given historical evidence of Native American settlement patterns, Cherokee Nation descent is highly unlikely for the original Melungeon ancestral families. These families were formed during the colonial era in the Virginia Tidewater areas, which were not Cherokee territory. Some of their descendants may have later intermarried with isolated individuals of Cherokee or other Native American ancestry in East Tennessee. Melungeons in Graysville, Tennessee claimed Cherokee ancestors.
Anthropologist E. Raymond Evans wrote (1979) regarding these claims:
In Graysville, the Melungeons strongly deny their Black heritage and explain their genetic differences by claiming to have had Cherokee grandmothers. Many of the local whites also claim Cherokee ancestry and appear to accept the Melungeon claim ...[28]
In 1999 historian C. S. Everett hypothesized that John Collins (recorded as a Sapony Indian who was expelled from Orange County, Virginia about January 1743), might be the same man as the Melungeon ancestor John Collins, classified as a "mulatto" in 1755 North Carolina records.[29] But Everett has revised that theory after having discovered evidence that these were two different men named John Collins. Only descendants of the latter man, identified as mulatto in the 1755 record in North Carolina, has any proven connection to the Melungeon families of eastern Tennessee.[30]
Other peoples frequently suggested as Melungeon ancestors are the Black Dutch and the Powhatan Indian group. The Powhatan were an Algonquian-speaking tribe who inhabited eastern Virginia during the initial period of European colonization.
Speculation about Melungeon origins continued during the 19th and 20th centuries. Writers recounted folk tales of shipwrecked sailors, lost colonists, hoards of silver, and ancient peoples such as the Carthaginians or Phoenicians. With each writer, new elements were added to the mythology surrounding this group, and more surnames were added to the list of possible Melungeon ancestors. Journalist Will Allen Dromgoole wrote several articles on the Melungeons in the 1890s.[31][32]
In the late 20th century, amateur researchers suggested that the Melungeons' ethnic identity may include ancestors who were Turks and Sephardi (Iberian) Jews. The writers David Beers Quinn and Ivor Noel Hume theorize that the Melungeons were descended from Sephardi Jews who fled the Inquisition and came as sailors to North America. They also say that Francis Drake did not repatriate all the Turks he saved from the sack of Cartagena, but some came to the colonies.[33] But Janet Crain notes that there is no written documentation to support this theory.[34]
The paper on the Melungeon DNA Project, published by Paul Heinegg, Jack Goins, and Roberta Estes in the Journal of Genetic Genealogy, shows that ancestry of the sample is primarily European and African, with only one person having a Native American paternal haplotype. There is no genetic evidence to support the Turkish or Jewish ancestry theories.[5]
______________________________________
The problems is Tazarah doesn't know what population demographics is or methodologies associated
So to him any legend or rumour is fact if he sees it printed in a book
This is the type thing that can come from not having been formerly educated If you presented a paper in college, if you make a claim and then list a source, those sources may be questioned and scrutinized to see if there is evidence behind the claim
What constitutes evidence is a foreign concept to Tazarah
To him if some professor writes something in a book that makes it an instant fact
But we who have been reading thee things for years now the differed professors says different things and make contradict one another so we have to then look at who has evidence to prove what they are claiming
But Tazarah doesn't work like that His modus operandi is to collect quotes from books to convince people on Lipstick Alley of some point he is trying to make So if the claim is printed in a book he shows an image of the book and assumes that he has proven something just due the fact it's printed in a book That is not scholarship
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: trying to focus on the irrelevant and MYTHICAL artwork now that his false narrative about Moors in america has once again been debunked
lol, he posts that painting and then blames me
That is a painters interpretation of how Moors looked, the fact that Saint James was mythological is irrelevant to that thus any writer who speaks of "Moors" may intend people that look like that, like people who live in the Maghreb today, the region where the 711 AD Moors came from
So if a writer is talking about a people they may name them wrongly or rightly but it is then up to us to determine what population the writer is referring to and then we can assess if those remarks are accurate as to who they intended, regardless of how they name them
Of course what I'm saying here you won't understand, and word usage in different time period you won't understand
to you everything is literal and has only one meaning
So what did C. A. Weslager says in Delaware's Forgotten Folk say about the alleged "Moors" of Cheswold ? p 12
quote: [i]"certain facial characteristics...set them apart from both whites and Negroes. The darkest have brown skins and the lightest resemble their white neighbors in complexion. Blonde, red and sandy hair may be seen, but the majority have brown or black hair, either wavy or straight and coarse like that of the full blooded American Indian. Kinky or woolen hair...is not often seen...straight noses and thin lips are typical. Eye colors range from grays and blues to dark brown and black. Many of the mixed bloods have sharply chiseled features, swarthy complexions and straight hair.... Others are distinctly Indian-like in appearance, having high and wide cheekbones, even among the same family. Light skinned Parent often have dark skinned children and vice versa.[/b]
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
Another predictable wall of deflection text from lyingass after getting his false narrative debunked for a third day in a row
"All of the historical documentation is wrong because I said so"
-- lyingass logic
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Spazarah: Another predictable wall of deflection text from lyingass after getting his false narrative debunked for a third day in a row
"All of the historical documentation is wrong because I said so"
-- lioness logic
^^ here he is again, repackaging legends as "historical documentation"
Spazarah has no clue what documentation is
for instance slave shipping records and censuses etc.
and if you can't find records you can't prove whichever of the alternate legends you happen to like as true
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Suppose some of the couple hundred Melungeons in the U.S. some have Spanish ancestry? or even North African ancestry
what are we supposed to do jump for joy?
that maybe Spazarah was right about some tiny population? But of course we need documentation to verify such a claim, written record of some sort pertaining to individuals ancestry
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: trying to focus on the irrelevant and MYTHICAL artwork now that his false narrative about Moors in america has once again been debunked
lol, he posts that and then blames me
That is a painters interpretation of how Moors looked, thus any writer who speaks of "Moors" may intend people that look like that, like people who live in the Maghreb today, the region where the 711 AD Moors came from
So if a writer is talking about a people they may name them wrongly or rightly but it is then up to us to determine what population the writer is referring to and then we can assess if those remarks are accurate as to who they intended, regardless of how they name them
Of course what I'm saying here you won't understand, and word usage in different time period you won't understand
to you everything is literal and has only one meaning
So what did C. A. Weslager says in Delaware's Forgotten Folk say about the alleged "Moors" of Cheswold ? p 12
quote: [i]"certain facial characteristics...set them apart from both whites and Negroes. The darkest have brown skins and the lightest resemble their white neighbors in complexion. Blonde, red and sandy hair may be seen, but the majority have brown or black hair, either wavy or straight and coarse like that of the full blooded American Indian. Kinky or woolen hair...is not often seen...straight noses and thin lips are typical. Eye colors range from grays and blues to dark brown and black. Many of the mixed bloods have sharply chiseled features, swarthy complexions and straight hair.... Others are distinctly Indian-like in appearance, having high and wide cheekbones, even among the same family. Light skinned Parent often have dark skinned children and vice versa.[/b]
Lyingass pulling more information out of context as usual, since his false narrative about a Moorish presence in america has been debunked for a third day in a row
When read IN CONTEXT, the above quoted part by lyingass is referring to people with mixed blood. Not Moors.
"Today, as a result of years of adversity, there remains not a single full-blooded Indian on the Delmarva Peninsula. It is usually conceded that all of the Peninsula Indians either died or were driven away long ago. But the reader must not make the common mistake of thinking that the Indian blood has been totally exterminated from the population even though full-bloods no longer lurk in the pine woods.
The Indian blood is perpeuated in forgotten folk who are neither white nor black nor pure Indian. Some of them are called Moors. Others are known as Yellow People, Nanticokes, or simply Indians. The scientist refers to them as mixed-bloods. The remarkable thing about these mixed-blood people is that they have maintained two distinct settlements about which little is known outside of the state. In fact, the communities are known only vaguely to most of the white residents. One settle- ment is on the north shore of Indian River in Sussex County, and the second is at Cheswold near Dover in Kent County...
...This section of Sussex County is called Indian River Hundred, a concept of the duke of York period when counties in Delaware were subdivided into hundreds. Throughout the southern portion of the Hundred, particularly along Route 24, are the shingled farmhouses and bungalows occupied by the mixed-bloods.
PAGE 12:
The shingles sheathing the old houses were mined in the great Pokomoke swamp, having been cut from cypress trees that lay buried in the swamp for centuries. Brick and stone houses are rarely seen because few stones are found in the sandy Sussex soil.
The houses are well kept and do not differ in appearance from the homes of neighboring whites, but are in much better con- dition than the weathern-worn shacks occupied by the Negroes. The mixed-bloods are farmers, fishermen, carpenters, truck driv ers, poultry raisers, storekeepers, gas-station proprietors, and common laborers. As a class, they are rated industrious, honest, and thrifty.
Their dress is no different from that of the whites, and indeed they are better dressed than some of the poorer class of white farmers. It is their facial characteristics, hair structure, and skin color that set them apart from both whites and negroes. There is no uniformity in their color, the darkest have brown skins, and the lightest resemble their white neighbors in complexion..." Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
^*^*^*^*
Perfect example of lyingass intentionally manipulating documents to keep his dead false narrative alive
Notice he no longer is trying to refute that actual Moors were present in america, but is now trying to lie and push a false narrative concerning their outward appearance.
ROFL.
This is why there are hundreds of screenshots from all over the internet on handfuls of different afrocentric AND eurocentric websites, all calling you out as a pathetic troll
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Spaz do you realize none of the above is any evidence of historical Moors in Cheswold Delaware?
see if you can find some record of counted North African Muslims being sent, transported anywhere in the United States
otherwise you have zero proof
I'll wait
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
You're done, I'm not going to dignify you with any further responses
I draw the line at lying trolls purposely manipulating historical documents and purposely quoting documents out of context to push lies
That's a tell tale sign that a lying fraud knows they have been thoroughly debunked
Something must have happened to you in your life to make you such a miserable person, I've never encountered a troll of your magnitude before.
I'll end the conversation here so that everyone can see how like always, you lied about what a document says because that's all you're good for
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
Now go cry about how I'm posting screenshots from handfuls of different people all over the internet from the past decade, calling you out for what you are
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Spaz seems to have become desperate, acting out mode now with the personal attacks, posting posts images from 2012 etc
He's given up now because with no record of counted North African Muslims being transported anywhere in the United States he has no proof,
so he's mad now
I understand
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah:
Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
Tarazah... can you kindly attack lioness in another thread..
Mind you I think someone calling hem/hir out is good but it is off topic for this thread
Lioness can you please refrain from creating strawmen that are off topic in this thread?
THANKS TO ALL
Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
quote: posted 10 May, 2022 02:51 PM Profile for Antalas Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote quote: Originally posted by Doug M: ]The point is that the Neolithic transition in "North Africa" did not start in Morocco. So constantly referencing Morocco as a key part of the Neolithic transition when most of the key sites of early Neolithic transition are further South is the problem. And that is exactly how most of these papers and studies try to frame the conversation knowing full well that this is nowhere near a valid representation of the scope of the Neolithic transition over the last 10,000 years in Africa.
Also, note that you are now posting citations that openly state that there was mixture in coastal North Africa during the Neolithic transition due to gene flow from Europe..... So you agree with that now? [/QB] You're paranoid they didn't imply african neolithization first appeared in Morocco. They studied places in Morocco and showed that neolithization there was brought by european farmers who crossed the strait that's it ...and you come reacting hysterically crying over the sahara. Again Strawman... Also stop projecting the current borders of north africa unto the past. Coastal north africans were not similar to people in the sahara nor did they feel any kind of kinship with such people.
And wtf I already acknowledged before this admixture event, it seems you either don't pay attention to what I post or understand it. But as you can see such admixture is NEOLITHIC in origin not your "roman" "white slaves".
quote:XVIII. Africa, then, was originally occupied by the Getulians and Libyans, rude and uncivilized tribes, who subsisted on the flesh of wild animals, or, like cattle, on the herbage of the soil. They were controlled neither by customs, laws, nor the authority of any ruler; they wandered about, without fixed habitations, and slept in the abodes to which night drove them. But after Hercules, as the Africans think, perished in Spain, his army, which was composed of various nations, having lost its leader, and many candidates severally claiming the command of it, was speedily dispersed. Of its constituent troops, the Medes, Persians, and Armenians, having sailed over into Africa, occupied the parts nearest to our sea. The Persians, however, settled more toward the ocean, and used the inverted keels of their vessels for huts, there being no wood in the country, and no opportunity of obtaining it, either by purchase or barter, from the Spaniards; for a wide sea, and an unknown tongue, were barriers to all intercourse. These, by degrees, formed intermarriages with the Getulians; and because, from constantly trying different soils, they were perpetually shifting their abodes, they called themselves NUMIDIANS. And to this day the huts of the Numidian boors, which they call _mapalia_, are of an oblong shape, with curved roofs; resembling the hulls of ships.
The Medes and Armenians connected themselves with the Libyans, who dwelled near the African sea; while the Getulians lay more to the sun, not far from the torrid heats; and these soon built themselves towns, as, being separated from Spain only by a strait, they proceeded to open an intercourse with its inhabitants. The name of Medes the Libyans gradually corrupted, changing it, in their barbarous tongue, into Moors.
Of the Persians the power rapidly increased; and at length, the children, through excess of population, separating from the parents, they took possession, under the name of Numidians, of those regions bordering on Carthage which are now called Numidia. In process of time, the two parties, each assisting the other, reduced the neighboring tribes, by force or fear, under their sway; but those who had spread toward our sea, made the greater conquests: for the Lybians are less warlike than the Getulians At last nearly all lower Africa was occupied by the Numidians; and all the conquered tribes were merged in the nation and name of their
Gaius Sallustius Crispus, usually anglicised as Sallust (/ˈsæləst/; 86 – c. 35 BC),[1] was a Roman historian and politician from an Italian plebeian family. Sallust was born at Amiternum in the country of the Sabines and later a partisan of Julius Caesar. He is the earliest known Latin-language Roman historian with surviving works to his name, of which Conspiracy of Catiline (on the eponymous conspiracy), The Jugurthine War (on the eponymous war), and the Histories (of which only fragments survive) are still extant. Sallust was primarily influenced by the Greek historian Thucydides and amassed great and ill-gotten wealth from his governorship of Africa.
quote:For example, while Iranian Kurds show strong genetic overlaps with Persians, Lurs and other groups, indicating a common background and little admixture at most
Race on the mind When Europeans colonised North Africa, they imposed their preoccupation with race onto its diverse peoples and deep past
quote:Three centuries after Christopher Columbus landed in the Americas, Europeans had sailed to the farthest reaches of the Earth, trading in markets as far away as the Americas, Africa and Asia. North Africa, just across the Mediterranean from Europe, was terra cognita. Not only had Europeans fought many wars with North Africans over the centuries, they had established factories, churches and even cemeteries at all the major ports. Still, they were surprisingly unclear about who the North Africans were and how the names they gave them related to those that the people gave themselves. After centuries of calling all North Africans Moors, Europeans didn’t feel the need to change their practice, even when they realised that not everyone they called a Moor thought they belonged together.
‘Moor’ was the name that Europeans had used to describe a variety of North African groups since Roman times. For those who found old designations more compelling, it had the advantage of being very old. It might not have been what North Africans called themselves, but using Moor skipped over the more complicated question of North Africans’ self-identification and the fact that what was known about the ancient Moors came from their Roman masters. When the Arab Muslims conquered North Africa in the 7th century, they used the term ‘Berbers’ to describe those peoples whom the Romans had called Moors, as well as those the Romans called barbarians or something else.
More than 1,000 years later, by the 18th century, the people who inhabited North Africa thought of themselves no longer as Moors but as either Arabs or Berbers. To them, the name of the country that Europeans called Barbary was part of the Maghrib, the Muslim West. Even the Ottomans, who ruled the ‘Barbary states’ of Algiers, Tunis and Tripoli, called it the Maghrib.
Confusingly, Europeans held on to ‘Moor’ as a name for the people but called the land Barbary, a word they did not imagine had anything to do with Berbers. Over a few decades in the 19th century, the French began to try to sort all this out and to devise a new way of representing the locals, one that adapted native nomenclatures to the project of French colonialism in Algeria. In the process, Barbary gave way to North Africa (Afrique du Nord), Arabs became Oriental Semites, and Berbers became a white race – or at least a non-black one – and the true indigenous inhabitants (indigènes, autochtones) of North Africa.
Today, the accepted name for all Berbers from eastern Egypt to the Atlantic is Imazighen (singular: Amazigh, pronounced /ʔa.maːˈziːʁ/), the name of a tribe in central Morocco. Unlike Berber, which evokes ‘barbarian’, the name usually comes with the fanciful but evocative explanation that it is a translation of ‘free men’.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: People should be careful using the word "Moor" because "Moor" after the invasion of Spain by Muslim invaders the word began to encompass a whole host of non-Africans, like Saqalibba, Arabs and even Spainish converts, Then you had folks in the Swahili States being called Moors by Spanish and Portuguese traders.
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: [They're talking about literal Moors who had ties to Spain that were sent as slaves to the 13 colonies
Ok this is news to me, where/When did SPANISH Moors get sent to the 13 English Colonies( and not the Spanish ones)....
Not saying its impossible but...Ive dont a lot of research into early Colonial American history...
....
Would the Spanish Crown allow the English to enslave their people (even if they're Muslim)
True,
quote: Αἰθίοψ , οπος, ὁ, fem. Αἰθιοπίς , ίδος, ἡ （Αἰθίοψ as fem., A.Fr.328, 329): pl.
A. “Αἰθιοπῆες” Il.1.423, whence nom. “Αἰθιοπεύς” Call.Del.208: (αἴθω, ὄψ):—properly, Burnt-face, i.e. Ethiopian, negro, Hom., etc.; prov., Αἰθίοπα σμήχειν 'to wash a blackamoor white', Luc.Ind. 28.
2. a fish, Agatharch.109.
II. Adj., Ethiopian, “Αἰθιοπὶς γλῶσσα” Hdt.3.19; “γῆ” A.Fr.300, E.Fr.228.4: Subst. Αἰθιοπίς, ἡ, title of Epic poem in the Homeric cycle; also name of a plant, silver sage, Salvia argentea, Dsc.4.104:— also Αἰθιόπιος , α, ον, E.Fr.349: Αἰθιοπικός , ή, όν, Hdt., etc.; Αἰ. κύμινον, = ἄμι, Hp.Morb.3.17, Dsc. 3.62:—Subst. Αἰθιοπία , ἡ, Hdt., etc. 2. red-brown, AP7.196 (Mel.), cf. Ach. Tat.4.5.
quote:5th century AD - “The Moors have bodies black as night, while the skin of the Gauls is white..." written by Isidore of Seville from The Etymologies of Isidore of Seville
(Steven A. Barney published 2007. p. 386)
They themselves portrayed themselves like this, which is the opposite of how a Moorish depiction is described:
Arab painting is the frontispice of a manuscript of Kitāb al-Aghānī (Book of Songs) of Abu al-Faraj al-Isfahani. It may be a representation of Badr al-Din Lu'lu' (circa 1218 and circa 1219 AD)
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: Anecdotal oral history but relevant
That's the most stupid comment I've seen in a while lol there is no "original" tamazight and the oldest branches are kabyle and zenaga not tamasheq which actually has a strong sub-saharan influence unlike other dialects :
quote:From the critical examination of the prehistoric data and the (socio)linguistic parameters, one draws, if not a demonstration, at least the strong feeling that there is no decisive argument in favor of a global external origin - Near East or East African - of the Berbers and/or their language. On the contrary, all the evidence points to a great stability and continuity of settlement and language in their current area of extension, whose boundaries have changed little over the millennia. The only well-established population movement is the progressive extension towards the south (Sahara and Sahel), which began in the fourth millennium BC. This data incidentally supports our hypothesis that Tuareg is in some respects an evolved "peripheral" form of Berber, having undergone the influence of negro-African substrates/adstrates.
There is no study that support the idea of "some berbers having greek ancestry" greek colonization in north africa was restricted to Egypt and Cyrenaica they never settled in the maghreb where most berbers lived. Most libyco-berber inscriptions are found in mediterranean north africa not the sahara and if tuaregs managed to keep it it's because they were far from the influence of arabic/latin which berbers further north adopted.
Moreover tuareg societies are highly stratified with blacks being at the bottom and slavery was common among them this is why some tuaregs look like other berbers and have similar genetic profiles while others look mixed or fully black :
quote:IKLAN (singular AKLI). This term refers to all former black slaves and domestic serfs of traditional Tuareg society. The term iklan means “to be black.” Slaves belonged to their masters and constituted a valuable source of labor at the disposal of their masters. They herded Tuareg livestock and cultivated land but could never acquire rights of ownership over these assets either legally or economically,as these rights were vested within the corporate body of the descent group (tawsit). Traditional forms of slavery were substantially undermined by the intrusion of colonialism and postindependence legal systems that abolished slavery in its multifarious forms.They were also known as ismkhan (singular ismakh) in Morocco and thought to have originated from bilad al-sudan. Slaves worked as domestics and shepherds. The slaves were integrated into households and tents of the families they served and usually had personalties with their masters. For this reason, a slave had a higher standing in the eyes of a Berber or an Arab than a Haratine.
Hsain Ilahiane - Historical dictionary of the Berbers (2006, Scarecrow Press, Inc), pp. 61-62
quote: "It is that of the "masters", the amenokal of the Algerian Tuaregs, the illan for the Malian Tuaregs, and certainly not that of the slaves raided during survival expeditions in the course of which the Targui regularly supplied themselves with camels, cattle and iklan - the word designated the captives and black slaves raided from the sedentary populations of Chad and Sudan. No one can say enough about the haughtiness of the Tuareg chiefs, their conviction of being a superior race, their sectarianism. It cannot be said enough that their society is deeply unequal and iniquitous. The slave system has been in force in this immense and desolate region since antiquity. [...] It should be noted that the servants were, it seems, not very numerous among the Kel Adagh (of Mali), having had to suffer numerous rezzous" [...] Even the freedmen (ederef) continue to suffer the ostracism of the lords. In his Tuareg-French dictionary (1910-1916), Father Charles de Foucauld, however benevolent towards the Tuareg culture, underlines it frankly: "Presently, throughout the Algerian, Moroccan, and Tripolitan Sahara, from the day on which a slave (that is, a Negro, since there are now no other slaves there but Negroes) is freed, he takes the name of hartani, belongs to the class of hartani, and is in every respect considered one of them; the population of hartani thus continually receives new contributions of Negro blood. The hartani are free, but they form the lowest class among the free" (vol. II, p.632).
Malek Chebel, L'esclavage en terre d'islam, pp.198-199
Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: The guy is a an AA which means mostly west african with some european ancestry and he obsessed over north african and the middle east because of his inner complexes and self hatred...pathetic.
Don't assume someone has some european ancestry just because they belong to the group you mention. Have you seen his dna results or even seen what he looks like etc...? I dont think so.
So some african americans will not have european ancestry and most do not have any other race ancestry.
Just because that person is african american don't assume that all AA are mostly west african as well.
It's like trying to say a person who is latino who is white born in americas must have automatic native american or african dna or both and we know there are some that don't(most do but some don't).
Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
I am bumping this thread but I am very dissappointed they way my thread got hijacked away from its original topic
Who This? Amazigh, Greek, Bedouin, Kurds
The Libu being from the Balkans and the Meshwesh being Trojans is interesting and fits right into this theory.
quote:After the Egyptians, the Greeks; Romans; and Byzantines mentioned various other tribes in Libya. Later tribal names differ from the Egyptian ones but, probably, some tribes were named in the Egyptian sources and the later ones, as well. The Meshwesh-tribe represents this assumption. Scholars believe it would be the same tribe called Mazyes by Hektaios and Maxyes by Herodotus, while it was called "Mazaces" and "Mazax" in Latin sources. All those names are similar to the name used by the Berbers for themselves, Imazighen
Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
women from South eastern Turkey, seem to be Kurdish
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