posted
I have read with some amusment and fear some of the posts about eyptian men
Surely they are not all liars who want something from non-egyptian women ?
I met my egyptian man while on holiday - he is 32 - i am mid forties - i may be fat but i am not desperate
Within days of meeting he told me he loved me
I surrendered a week or so later
I have little money - he is aware of this
I have dependent children (10 and 13)- he is aware of this
He is begging me (and children)to go to Egypt to be with him - where we can live in his house and he will continue in his present job to provide for us - i can work if i want to
he is applying for a short visa to come to the west and help me sort out my affairs and pack etc.
i am interested in Islam and presently reading the Qur`ran - he is happy about this and I know he would like me to convert to Islam - but he will never say so directly. he is keen to "live a good life as advised by Islam" with me and my children in Egypt
I was already in two minds about all this - mostly to do with the age difference and he is so beautiful - i am pretty and have a wonderful personality - but I ask why me ? - I do not have low self esteem - just a fair grasp of reality
Now after reading the posts here i feel - well i do not really know how i feel - the jury is out on this one ........
i look forward to your replies - watch this space i will let you know what i decide.
posted
Hi, after reading your post one thing came into my mind: What would your children say if you tell them to leave everything behind and move to Egypt? You need to be careful, I would be worried how to f. e. finance their education. And then there are the culture differences. You might adapt to the other lifestyle but will your children be able to do it too? Your kids should come first, they are your dependants. If you would be by yourself surely it would be all different and easier. You really have to sort things out, take your time with making any decisions. Good luck!
[This message has been edited by Tigerlily (edited 09 February 2005).]
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
there are many young egyptian women without children available. no offense to you, but think back to the attitude of 1950s and try to imagine in that era why a young man would want to marry an older woman with kids instead of a young unattached woman. now apply to your situation. can happen, but you'll have better ods winning the jackpot in vegas' slot machines.
Posts: 2182 | Registered: Oct 2002
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posted
Expat.... I'm sure I agree with you. We usually see eye to eye on this stuff, and I understand the end of your post, but what is this about the 50's? Are you making a point about sex being easier to get from an older woman or just what?
Beyond that, Maxine, I agree with TL too about the kids and their education. I'm sure where you sit now with rose colored glasses on everything seems oh so nice and life will be romantic and great in Egypt. Sure there will be a few problems, but with love you will work them out. OK..fine... BUT...who is paying for the decent education your children should have here in Egypt? Do you have any clue what it costs? What kind of money does this guy make? If he can afford a decent school, then you've found yourself a keeper perhaps...but unfortunately keepers like that are not usually met while on holiday in Egypt. It usually takes hanging around a bit longer and looking a bit harder to find one of them, just like anywhere else.
posted
Hmmm.. I think there is something about older women that just draws young guys, at least the serious ones, it's like development psychology, they go through it sooner or later, I think. And it sure is a better sign I think than older men marrying 15 years below their age, signalling that they are just after body mainly, or simply do not cope with a woman of own age. And European women of 40+ look quite youthful, compared to same age in Egypt probably, heavy makeup does make one look older anyway, while natural faces look younger, right? And if she has a wonderful personality??? from what I've read here that should explain it all, because that is what the men there are missing--kindness reciprocated, i think. Welsafty here described the dear women of his country (young and beautiful but...) quite colourfully somewhere :)
Children in my mind are the least of trouble, I don't have any but I remember my childhood very well, it's tears each time but they convert quickly. Plus: their time to enjoy and decide will come later, now it's their mother's time and it's not like her life should be a total sacrifice, no one wins from that.
What's this thing about education? Do you really need to pay for it? No state schools? or the craze that bought education is somehow better than what you get free because we, children of consumer society, are not used to thinking that what comes free, can be good? OK, and it would not help us flaunt our status, eiter :). Otherwise, in one of my classrooms was a sign once: languages cannot be taught, they can only be learned. From what I understand, it probably applies to all teaching vs learning. The private schools most often have better looking and better dressed teachers, I've noticed, but do they give better education??? yes, they produce lawyers and bankers and other type of people sitting in room xxxx on floor yyy in some business building, but then why do state schools produce so many of the leaders, celebrities and other significant people?
Anyway, I have a woman's instinct about men (=always wrong) so don't listen to me in this matter :)
posted
Maxine only is an advice: It is quite so rapid, and you see it with eyes of in love woman, not quite rapid decisions, you have two children who need from you, in their education, if you want a private school here it is expensive.
I don´t say that a man of 32 could not fall in love with a older woman not, this is not the point, the point the fact is that it takes the things with tweezers. Don´t run. Also you have to think about your children, they are accustomed to their ambience, have their friends, their language, their own world. You know how much is the salary of him, and if he can support it: you and your children, home, feeding, health, school, clothes, footwear, extras.......... Where you live you can be gained in dollars or euros, don´t leave still your job, you have small children. If he really love you, then can ask you for one fiancés' visa if you are from USA or England.
And hence to continue treating him, knowing him more, and to see if also as their children feel with the relation
And finally I think that it is not a question of being or not interested a religion, you have that really to love, to feel deeply the day that you want to change your religion.
Not because he is or is not happy with your change, the change has to come from yourself and not for that he could please it.
posted
I forgot: a thing is to be here as tourist and another thing is to live ... it is very different. When one comes since tourist sees it with other eyes, you are thrilled by everything, the culture, the amiability of the people, thing that in Usa doesn´t happen or few. Is all for now.
Posts: 33 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Thank you to all who have replied so far ..
In an attempt to keep my initial story as brief as possible i have left a few things out which will clarify my intentions : Now I write a novel :-)
*My Egyptian man would like to spend a month with me in my country to see how i live, meet my family and friends. He would like to be here with me as I pack up and sort out my affairs here. He would like us all to tavel back to Egypt together.
* My (initial) intention is to go to Egypt for 6 months. During this time i can embrace the culture and tradition first hand. Learn the language better and importantly see him on his 'turf'. Also this would give us time to nurture our relationship. If it has not gone pear shaped after this period we will make another plan - I (we) may need more time - or maybe by then I will return home and finalise my affairs and return to Egypt for good.?
* Regarding the children their views will be equal to ours in any future decison making. They are keen to visit Egypt - they really enjoy this man's company. I feel they will learn so much by this experience - far more than what is taught in school books - this is a unique oportunity to embrace another culture - advance their personal development. We have two options (i) i home school them in the basic subjects they will miss during this time (ii) they join an english speaking school for this period. I favour the latter, but they will be involved in this decision. Regarding the finance of schooling, my Egyptian friend has looked into this and says he can pay this.
* He has a reasonable enough job - not great. I can work also. Also I have some money put away for the children - which will stay in their name in my country. It is for their education or whatever.
* He says that if the relationship progresses to marriage, we can have a marrage contract drawn up where he will pledge to pay me LE 1,000,000 if the marriage dissolves because of his wrong doing. Further he will add that he will have no other wife/wives. And anything else I want in this contract to give me peace of mind. I am not familiar with this idea of a contract - if it is legal or not ??? I need to investigate this.
* I understand this 'relationship' is so very new and it could all go pear shaped - and if it does and we have give it our best shot - then so be it ..... but ......
* My concern, after reading this forum, is that I have indeed (unwittingly) got those rose coloured glasses on and that this man has a hidden agenda. I do not want my children involved in dishonesty nor do I want to be made a fool of.
* Perhaps I should walk away now - but my heart does not want to do this
* One more point I met this man in another country - not Egypt - I was on an extended holiday - he was working abroad. I have visited Egypt twice before on holiday.
* And finally (i think? !) I am the one who has taken an interest in Islam so I am researching it and reading the Qur`ran. This Egyptian man has never asked me to become a Muslim - although ideally I think it would please him very much. I need to feel this in my heart before I can follow Islam.
posted
Curious how you're going to get him to your country for a one month visit when so many women here can't get their husbands a visa of any kind. What is your secret?
Posts: 225 | From: USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
He has a reasonable enough job - not great. I can work also. Also I have some money put away for the children - which will stay in their name in my country. It is for their education or whatever.
* He says that if the relationship progresses to marriage, we can have a marrage contract drawn up where he will pledge to pay me LE 1,000,000 if the marriage dissolves because of his wrong doing ------------------------------------------ If he has a reasonable job - no great - like you said..... he think sign a marriage contract and to pay LE 1,000,000???? why you spend the money of your children if he has enough money,, keep the money for the future of your children.
well mean that he has a good social position, maybe ...... who knows?? then mean that you dont need find a job or ..... very strangeeeeeeeeee
posted
visa K-1, the American citizen must do a request presenting the form I-129F, Request for a foreign Fiancé
REQUEST OF FIANCÉ'S VISA
- Current passport. - Certificate of birth with the name of the parents. - Certificate of divorce, annulment or death of previous marriages. - Certificate of precedents (police officer) of all the countries in which it has lived for more than one year from the 16. - medical examination (instructions granted by the consulate) - Evidence of economic mantención, form I-134 completed by a sponsor. - Evidence of relation with the petitioner. - A photo size passport (5 x 5 cm) white and black for every petitioner of visa. The photo must show finished face, without hat and with white fund
posted
To Danielab: * I metioned the money i have put away for the children only as a 'safety net. I (we) have no intention of using it - but it is there for their education if needed - although i am thinking more of their Higher (uniiversity) education.
* My Egyptian friend wants to support us - to provide for us - but realistically I think i will have to work to 'top up' our income (if i am going to stay in Egypt)I am privileged enough to be well educated and have worked in two professional areas - so i have much to fall back on as far as employment is concerned - however I do need time to master the language better, especially written Arabic. no this man is not of a 'good social position'.
* concerning the marriage contract - My friend said he is willing to make a contract, in marriage, stating he will pay me LE 1,000,000 IF THE MARRIAGE DISSOLVES DUE TO HIS WRONG DOINGeg. (adulry, for example) I do not know if there is such a contract which is legally binding ? I am aware he could not pay this money - so is he - i believe he said this to reassure me of his intentions and that he will go to prison if he does wrong by me. ???
posted
To PRchic: The visa he has applied for is for a short period only (a holiday visa)- he provided all the necessary papers, including a letter from his employer stating he has one month off work and shall return to that job again when he returns to Egypt. Further (as his sponsor)I supplied a letter of invitaion, copy of my passport, bank statements (as proof of my income and that I could suport him -if needed- while here), proof of where i live. His application is being processed now - I see no reason to reject it (forever the optimist ?) I hope this helps
Posts: 12 | Registered: Feb 2005
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IMHO you have a 1 in 10 chance of liking Egypt. Islam may be interesting but Muslims are another story. Your relationship has a better chance of success in the US, assuming Mr. Egypt is the open-minded type.
On the whole Egyptian men are relatively compassionate hubbies (compared to their Western counterparts) as you will find out by reading the many pages of waffle on here.
quote:Originally posted by EgyptianSalsa: Dear Ms. Maxine,
IMHO you have a 1 in 10 chance of liking Egypt. Islam may be interesting but Muslims are another story. Your relationship has a better chance of success in the US, assuming Mr. Egypt is the open-minded type.
On the whole Egyptian men are relatively compassionate hubbies (compared to their Western counterparts) as you will find out by reading the many pages of waffle on here.
Just my humble opinion.
Salsa
I am American and have been living in Egypt 6 months now. I have been here 2 times. First trip of 10 days was most the tourist "gig" and I thought Egypt was really cool. Then I moved here and really crashed hard. Severe culture shock even though I "thought" I understood what I was walking into. However with the gentle assistance of my now husband, I'm settling into the routines and it feels like home to me. I will say, however, that my husband is more of the "open-minded" variety mentioned elsewhere in these posts and a very non-demanding, easy-going (if not slightly hyper) guy. We have become inseparable.
I also accepted Islam shortly after moving here. I did this for myself and likewise my husband did not ask it or require it. I will say at the **extreme risk of stepping on muslim toes** (forgive me brothers and sisters) that I experienced the severest culture shock of all after becoming muslim. (Ok so I'm obviously a tad bit niave, although well-meaning.) Do not expect the majority of muslims to walk the talk. I have met some of the most beautiful muslims souls in my life here and also alot of the not-so-beautiful souls. I guess it depends on where you live, etc. I would like to share your thoughts about Islam privately if you like. :-)
All in all, I don't regret living in Egypt. I'm seeing the world in a different way now. Just be realistic with yourself... this is NOT the USA. Be ready for anything and you'll be fine. You sound like a lovely and intelligent lady.
Posts: 26 | From: Louisville, KY, USA... now Tanta Egypt | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Somehow, Daniela's comments do not seem very believable to me, D. you seem to have a negative outlook. A theory I have created for myself would explain that world is much of the same in either case, just that if you sort out everything positive, you feel happier, you choose the sunnier side for you. If you sort out everything negative, the world will still be the same, but you choose to see only bad things in it, what a misery then and why do it to yourself???
Anyway, there are a multitude of aspects tha actually speak for a union of a man with a 10 year older woman: 1) men die on average a bit earlier anyway, you would not have spend old years alone 2) men also start getting old physically really fast sometime in late 40ies while a lady still looks a lady and quite presentable in her 50ies, especially with modern bodycare 3) women's sex drive is highest when they near 40, because they feel content and confident. This, however is exactly the age when the male's sex drive starts falling. And again, a man in 30ies has the best level ever and thus exactly fits with a woman of 40. And when he will be on low, you might just start your menopause, so harmony again.
We are physiological creatures much more than we choose to think, so these aspects are important, think e.g. how a low sugar level in blood or a headache can totally change everything about our person for a while.
I somehow feel Maxine is in good hands. What I'm uncomfortable in this is how easily people convert into another religion or accept religion at all. First of all it proves how superficial the system actually is (and then why play everyone is taking it seriously) and for the second anyone who converts actually supports the streangthening of the system/the weakening of individual, while true evolution and development would be in weakining of systems and strengthening of individuals. It is a very affective dissolver of power and an effective harmoniser of contradictory views of decisions and thus serves for better overall harmony in world and for a world less ruled by power and more by involvement and consultation. Is not directed personally to anyone (sometimes you can't have it all, but still want some, so what do you do :), but is just a general viewpoint.
quote:Originally posted by Maxine: I have read with some amusment and fear some of the posts about eyptian men
Surely they are not all liars who want something from non-egyptian women ?
I met my egyptian man while on holiday - he is 32 - i am mid forties - i may be fat but i am not desperate
Within days of meeting he told me he loved me
I surrendered a week or so later
I have little money - he is aware of this
I have dependent children (10 and 13)- he is aware of this
He is begging me (and children)to go to Egypt to be with him - where we can live in his house and he will continue in his present job to provide for us - i can work if i want to
he is applying for a short visa to come to the west and help me sort out my affairs and pack etc.
i am interested in Islam and presently reading the Qur`ran - he is happy about this and I know he would like me to convert to Islam - but he will never say so directly. he is keen to "live a good life as advised by Islam" with me and my children in Egypt
I was already in two minds about all this - mostly to do with the age difference and he is so beautiful - i am pretty and have a wonderful personality - but I ask why me ? - I do not have low self esteem - just a fair grasp of reality
Now after reading the posts here i feel - well i do not really know how i feel - the jury is out on this one ........
i look forward to your replies - watch this space i will let you know what i decide.
Hi Maxine
Do you know if he wants to have children of his own? I think that given the age difference this is something you need to discuss with him before making your mind up. You should know that in Egyptian society there is great pressure on men & women to get married and produce offspring, bearing in mind he is in his early thirties, I wouldn't be surprised at all that this would be his case. What sort of living arrangements is he proposing for when you arrive in Egypt; you mentioned that you can live in his house. Does this mean that you would be living together? This is a big 'no-go' in Egyptian society. I am not saying you couldn't get away with it in Cairo, but it certainly wouldn't earn you the respect of his family and friends. Anyways, this is just some food for thought. I wish you the very best of luck.
posted
Maxine.. another small point.... you will not be able to just 'live with him' here!! you must, at least, get an orfi paper.. this entitles you, with restrictions, to live in an apartment together.. nothing more! This 1,000,000 le.... if he doesn't have it to give, you know, this is bullshi t!! To send your children to a decent school here is expensive... State schools are not even a consideration unless they speak arabic!! Do you really want them to be uprooted from friends to go to a country where they will feel completely lost?? Unless this guy is VERY well of by Egyptian standards, no way will he be able to afford topay their education! I dont mean to sound cynical, but, as I live in a tourist resort in Egypt, I see this story on an almost daily basis... older woman, younger man... Many Egyptian guys can swear undying love very quickly!!! Especially if it means a trip abroad, villa, business, car, whatever!!! The local guys find it a constant source of amusement around the coffee shops!! TAKE CARE!!!
Posts: 4238 | From: USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
I think your idea of trying egypt for 6 months before commiting yourself is a good one but as the others have mentioned there may be difficulties in you living together.
Regarding your children, don't worry about them, they will gain a huge experince that will stand them in good stead in the future. When I was in London my daughter went to an International school and kids there, of all nationalities were constantly coming and going. Some didn't speak a word of English when they arrived but they did when they left. Loads only stayed for 2/3 terms as their parents got sent on to another assignemtn.
I brought my daughter here to live in Luxor she was 11 when we arrived she is now 13. I would say she has learnt more here about life then I could ever have taught her in the West. Especially about materialism.
One thing you need to get your last school report authenticated by the Embassy to get you child in school. I didn't know this so when we went to enrol my daughter they wouldn't have her. I sent the report to a solicitor in the UK and they have maanged to lose it and are now trying to get a replacement. This has meant no school for my daughter but we have been able to get a tutor come to the home.
I think you need to talk to your man about the issues raised on these forums, that is what I did and his reaction convinced me that he was one of the good guys. Only you know your man, people on these forums can make judgements but they don't know him.
The marriage contract is completely legal and the way things are done out here. You can have all sorts of things put in it.
quote:Originally posted by Maxine: I have read with some amusment and fear some of the posts about eyptian men
Surely they are not all liars who want something from non-egyptian women ?
I met my egyptian man while on holiday - he is 32 - i am mid forties - i may be fat but i am not desperate
Within days of meeting he told me he loved me
I surrendered a week or so later
I have little money - he is aware of this
I have dependent children (10 and 13)- he is aware of this
He is begging me (and children)to go to Egypt to be with him - where we can live in his house and he will continue in his present job to provide for us - i can work if i want to
he is applying for a short visa to come to the west and help me sort out my affairs and pack etc.
i am interested in Islam and presently reading the Qur`ran - he is happy about this and I know he would like me to convert to Islam - but he will never say so directly. he is keen to "live a good life as advised by Islam" with me and my children in Egypt
I was already in two minds about all this - mostly to do with the age difference and he is so beautiful - i am pretty and have a wonderful personality - but I ask why me ? - I do not have low self esteem - just a fair grasp of reality
Now after reading the posts here i feel - well i do not really know how i feel - the jury is out on this one ........
i look forward to your replies - watch this space i will let you know what i decide.
God.. these stories are really tiring to read...
western women comes to egypt falls in love.. don't know what to do.. blah.. blah.. blah.. blah... god so boring...
u want the truth... 9 times out of 10 it fails... but hey maybe you will different luck....
posted
Of course it fails 9 times of 10, Brian, it can fail everywhere else, too. Like I said before, it is largely a matter of faith and whether you happen to meet someone whom you are willing to imagine as object of this faith in love.
I do not trust judgement of people v. much who inconsiderately keep sending whole previous texts along with their answer. Just pointing out here any judgement is only as sound as the person behind it.
quote:Originally posted by Pritipersoon55: Of course it fails 9 times of 10, Brian, it can fail everywhere else, too. Like I said before, it is largely a matter of faith and whether you happen to meet someone whom you are willing to imagine as object of this faith in love.
I do not trust judgement of people v. much who inconsiderately keep sending whole previous texts along with their answer. Just pointing out here any judgement is only as sound as the person behind it.
up to u.. but i am saying the truth.. if the truth hurts so be it brian
posted
Surely the relationship can fail, a relationship can either succeed or be doomed.
The problem I see here is that two partners are from totally different cultural background - and as I stated before the poster brings two children into this relationship.
Its much more to lose and every step should be wisely thought through. Before getting him a visiting visa and packing up all your things, terminate the lease, resign your job, take your kids out of school etc. you should spent at least another month with him. And don't forget to talk to your entire family. Its a big step. Take your time, there is no rush for anything.
[This message has been edited by Tigerlily (edited 10 February 2005).]
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
it' s not the truth, it's that you are not adding value. That is fails more often that is does not, is something that girls get with mother's milk I think, so does not help you just repeating it here. Try give some details, facts if better, that could be helpful for identifying the 1/9 then.
and i tend to think we all draw our own specific types, so people who do not succeed, maybe just aren't the kind of people to succeed in this type of relationship. Like e.g. people giving advise here "mind you, it won't be US there" ???? what can one conclude from such remarks, or what indeed did the people expect then, a homogenous world? of course, I happen to live on a crossroads of civilisations, wise people here have written books on it, so maybe more appreciative for differences, and again better chances to succeed then maybe, although me also have my share to fear for :)
posted
Oh, but you can never lose, Tigerlily? Sorry for heating up here :) but it is very much a life philosophy thing for me--you can only gain from any experience in life. You arrive in this world, let's say at zero level, and from then on you can only gain, and only lose what you've gained before, but you see, never will you end up with a minus, I think.
And I think it is exactly VERY useful to make a small advance or turnaround every 3-5 years, keeps you going fresh and not stagnation into your life. What does not kill you makes you stronger we here use to say, and it sweems to work, too :). If that people's durability or capacity for change and development differs a lot, i think it has to do with physical capacity as well as the intellect. Some people need easier life, to be able to cope, and some need challenges, to be able to feel their neglected borders and push them once more.
posted
Oh I made a mistake in my 04.24 that I hinted as if it is the fault of people goint to Egypt that they do not accept differences. Actually I thinkt what makes it so difficult and I am much more afraid of is that the people there do not appreciate differences. We, the immigrants, appreciate them, but we do not enjoy reciprocation. Then on the other hand I enjoy it almost nowhere (and the reason probably is not much difficult to guess either, I just have too different ideas about most things, I really make a lousy mainstreamer :(. the positive for me: does not matter where i am or with whom, still not liked, except by very few, anyway :)
Posts: 90 | From: www.visitestonia.com | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I am not big on doing philosophy about life. All I am pointing out is that its a much greater risk with two children attached to that woman. She doesn't have to decide for one, she MUST decide for all three of them. She shouldn't rush into anything just because he's begging her. She is a grown-up woman and I hope for whatever she decides on its in the best interest of her children.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I, again, hope it is in the best interests of herself. If parents are happy, they make children feel happy anywhere, the young ones really require only so little, we are just used to thinking they need tons of money, tons of friends and a degree from a right university, if it were the case, very few people in the world could ever be quite happy and content at all. It is very much a brainwash thing about children and what they need to be happy and successful. They'll get to decide after some years, all for themselves. (trying to shut up now, ummmmm :)
Posts: 90 | From: www.visitestonia.com | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Pritipersoon55: I, again, hope it is in the best interests of herself. If parents are happy, they make children feel happy anywhere, the young ones really require only so little, we are just used to thinking they need tons of money, tons of friends and a degree from a right university, if it were the case, very few people in the world could ever be quite happy and content at all. It is very much a brainwash thing about children and what they need to be happy and successful. They'll get to decide after some years, all for themselves. (trying to shut up now, ummmmm
what gets me.. is that womem.. particularly western women... always end with a shitty guy.. and they end staying with this shitty guy... for fear of losing him.... why are women are attractecd to such men..
brian
[This message has been edited by brian04 (edited 10 February 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by Pritipersoon55: I, again, hope it is in the best interests of herself. If parents are happy, they make children feel happy anywhere, the young ones really require only so little, we are just used to thinking they need tons of money, tons of friends and a degree from a right university, if it were the case, very few people in the world could ever be quite happy and content at all. It is very much a brainwash thing about children and what they need to be happy and successful. They'll get to decide after some years, all for themselves. (trying to shut up now, ummmmm
I don't think you got my point. Its not about money, status, wealthyness. You might think about tons of money, friends and a university degree is everything in life but don't apply these statement to everyone.
Its about two children already went through a dilemma when their parents divorced, now moving to another country, another culture, another daddy, not anymore being in the same environment what they know of, making new friends, will the grandparents have the chance anytime soon to hold the grandkids again and so on. And what about the biological father of her children? How can he cope with knowing that they live thousand of miles away?
To the original poster, you might want to give a view of how do you feel your own children will be capable of adapting to a new life in a new country.
[This message has been edited by Tigerlily (edited 10 February 2005).]
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Debbie: [B]Expat.... I'm sure I agree with you. We usually see eye to eye on this stuff, and I understand the end of your post, but what is this about the 50's? Are you making a point about sex being easier to get from an older woman or just what?[B]
LOL Deb. I meant as a sweeping general stereotype, the attitude is like in the 1950s US/Europe. As in back in those days, you didn't see a lot of younger guys marrying older, divorced women with kids. Instead of thinking that egyptians are going to look at the situation the same way as europeans/americans, it's better to think in more conservative terms and think in 1950s, that kind of scenario would have raised eyebrows. same as women having children out of wedlock. in egypt, although many things and attitudes are modern and it's going through a lot of rapid changes, you still get raised eyebrows if a single man choses to marry an older divorced woman with children.
posted
Hi Max. First of all I wish you good luck and sweet love.
My only advice to you would be (mainly children-wise) MAKE HIM MOVE FOR LONGER TIME TO YOUR COUNTRY. He can do it if he wants.
Kids would have major difficulties if you move now. As Samia says, foreign schools down there are expensive and local schools innacteptable. Make your habibi join your life, and if it works between you guys, what I wish you greatly, kids would be more eager to adapt your eventual deplacement, or they wouldnt be harmed that much by split.
Egypt is beautifull and tasty, like sun - sometimes warm and welcoming, but also cruel and harmful.
My friend moved from Bruxelles to Ireland, and her kids (7 and 9) are upside down in their small minds...just an example from my environment.
Children dont foreget and hardly forgive. beso. Marguarita
Follow your heart along with your mind. But just one advice: If only you see ONE; just ONE or TWO signs of something you really know positively that does not fit with what he says and promises...leave it.
Do not give him the benefit of the doubt.
Be much more strict in that sense that what would you do with another guy. My personal experience tells me that Egyptian guys speak very much and they -initially- seem to do, but in a little time everything vanishes. It's an strange behaviour, but time is very very relative for them.
Hope he's different though; but it's a cultlural question, and we western women are always richest thant them...even if you are poor.
quote:Originally posted by Maxine: *My Egyptian man would like to spend a month with me in my country to see how i live, meet my family and friends. He would like to be here with me as I pack up and sort out my affairs here. He would like us all to tavel back to Egypt together. I think we have the cart before the horse. Who is visiting who first? He will visit you for one month? You will visit him for 6 months? What comes first? Who is paying for his RT ticket? Can he afford this? Or are you footing the bills? Again, if he has a job good enough to pay for travel tickets and to put your children in an appropriate school, maybe you've found yourself the keeper. REALLY! Maybe he is.
* My (initial) intention is to go to Egypt for 6 months. During this time i can embrace the culture and tradition first hand. Learn the language better and importantly see him on his 'turf'. Also this would give us time to nurture our relationship. If it has not gone pear shaped after this period we will make another plan - I (we) may need more time - or maybe by then I will return home and finalise my affairs and return to Egypt for good.? And when would the kids be brought into this? I think I understand you would bring them for the 6 month period. Not a problem, probably wise to include them in this time, but DO deal with the home schooling or sending them short term to some school, for their sake. Although Akshars daughter hasn't gone to school for a year and a half now, I don't think many kids can take that much time off successfully and return without some psychological or academic repercussions. Also, if you have the children with you are you going to ORFI marry the man to live with him? Does this seem really wise? I would suggest you live on your own for those 6 months and see what it is like to live in Egypt. Sounds like you can afford that. I'm just thinking if it does go "pear shaped", does it send the message to the kids you want to send to them that you can fake marry someone for a trial period to see if it will work? I'm not saying one way or the other if that is right or wrong (Personally I do see ORFI as a fake marriage and Islams answer to getting to live together, by any other name) but... I do think you need to examine if this is the message you want your kids to be witness to.
Regarding the finance of schooling, my Egyptian friend has looked into this and says he can pay this. I'm sure he has and I am sure there is some school out there he might be able to afford, but you need to learn a lot more about the level of schools they have here and which one he wants them to go to. Do you approve of their teaching methods? Do the children of that school manage to pull grades that will let them do anything later on that you want them to do? Are you aware that these schools are privately owned by Egyptians that are competing heavily with many other schools for your child's tuition and the owners will lie through their teeth about how good their school is? Are you aware that the idea of choosing your profession as a child or even as an adult rarely happens in Egypt? Your profession is predetermined by your grades, basically, because you will ONLY get into specific Universities with certain grades. Just by finding out what profession a person is in, you can tell if s/he was a good student or not. The caste system for students is something like Doctor, Engineer, Lawyer and Accountant. (there are others in there, but I know Doctors and Engineers are on top. Lawyers and Accountants are pretty low down. If an Egyptian child gets great grades, s/he MUST become a Doctor....no choice in the matter, if family gets involved. Anyway, the point to all of that is that education here is important. If you think your children might want to stay in Egypt it is important that you offer them the possibilities they will need for a better life, or if they want to leave to further an education abroad, will the school your man has chosen be looked at as one any foreign university would consider? This is a lot to look into in that 6 month period. Hell, I'm just thinking of one more thing... a woman won't even be looked at by an Egyptian husband for marriage if she doesn't have a reasonable education. The husband may not let her work later on, but he demands that she not embarrass him by being uneducated.
Again, good luck with the whole issue and decision.
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Good idea to go and try, you can always back off if the culture shock is too much. Kids may like it, I only see the problem with them giving up the 'goods' of the Western world: they will sure not find them as easy in Egypt. I wish you bestest luck in all, especially in getting a tourist visa for your love. Posts: 2238 | From: Mother Earth | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sofia25: Maxine,
Hope he's different though; but it's a cultlural question, and we western women are always richest thant them...even if you are poor. [/QUOTE richer than them....who? specify your thought.
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I said I hope He is a different guy from all those corniche lover boys. A western woman is always richer than an Egyptian guy (not a rich one, i think It's the case, isn't it?) I mean it seems he says the right things to a woman with two children...but the one that goes to USA first is him (who pays the air ticket?) and the one who is going to leave everything behind will be She and her children. I just say that Egyotian guys (hoe he is the exception) do not think in love and marriage as western people do. It's more like "let's get married and then we will face -or not, usually it's not- the consequences" better than "let's ger married as two in love persons who get along very very well and are lovers and friends above all".
I just say these guy is telling everything a mid 40 western woman with two children wants to hear, if he has understand that she is not a completely nuts one (who she is not).
quote:Originally posted by miriam: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Sofia25: [b]Maxine,
Hope he's different though; but it's a cultlural question, and we western women are always richest thant them...even if you are poor. [/QUOTE richer than them....who? specify your thought.
posted
Wow I am overwhelmed by the reponse to my post - thanks to everyone !
Of course my children's welfare comes first - we have discussed in great detail our plan. They are very fond of my Egyptian friend and he is fond of them. They have developed a friendship rather than a prospective - 'father' child relationship. My children are well adjusted to our 'single parent' life - their father and I split when they were very young and they have a good relationship with him.
I have not had a man in my life since. This is a new experience for them and for me.
We intend to live for the 6 months in my friend's house in Cairo - but not overtly as 'lovers' - this is for my children's sake, they must get used to the idea of my friend and I as 'close friends' before we introduce the idea of a more deeper relationship.
My attitude is to take small steps
Like i have said before - if this fails - and we have (all four of us) have given it our best (honest) shot - then so be it - BUT .........................
My main concern, upon reading this forum, is of the magnitude of lies and deceit that surrounds many Egyptian non-Egyptian relationships.
Have I fallen prey to a 'professional conman' ??? - I am cautious - but I am not fool enough to think that I cannot be conned, especially in affairs of the heart. Do I wear those rose coloured glasses ? Forgive me it would be so easy to don them - my Egyptian man makes me feel so loved, so special, he is passionate and caring and and and ...... and I too offer the same in return
So here lies my problem ............
To the person who asks if my Egyptian man would like children of his own - we have discussed this - he says (quote) "if we have a child (ren) great - if not this is also fine - I am grateful for the opportunity to love and care for your children as my own"
[This message has been edited by Maxine (edited 10 February 2005).]
But be honest: All his proofs are what he says? Or what he does?
I REALLY hope you KNOW positively that he does things instead of just saying them.
Quotations is what i always used to explain everything to my friends. I wasn't conned, and my habibi was not a cornniche lover boy. He did not ask for money. But he simply didn't think love was what we all think. He did not ask me for nothing, but he did nothing also;-) i had to did it all. It's just a difference of culture. For me that was not a compromise...a compromise is giving and taking also. The only thing I was sure of was his (in my opinion, excessive) VERBAL proofs of his unonditional love. Only that. Maybe i wasn't conned, and i am pretty sure he loved me, but in his way. And maybe with time i would have been his long-time investment, with a relative hapinnes for both, but not with a good relationship. I deeply never trust him and time has confirmed that i did well.
He was 35 and I'm 26, he is very handsome, so am I (if you allow me to say;-), I am higly educated, he was not, I am not rich, nor was he, me without children, he with two (from different wives)...so as you see, topics are terrible. But The cultural difference there is, and you have a "topical" situation more than I had, for example...
take care and be honest to your intuitions. You are an intellgent woman: your are not being conned but maybe you will not have the time of your life neither and maybe you even suffer. And your life can change too much for the benefits you will really get...
Just let yourself go, but TRUST your intuitions, even if they are minimal.
He will pay for his return trip to visit me. He will also pay for myself and my children's ticket to Egypt.
I offered to pay for our (me and my children) ticket - he would not hear of it - he appears to be a very proud man who wants (needs) to provide for us.
He is aware I have money put away for my children - he insists we will not use this in the immediate future - however he agrees we may need to call upoon this if they go to university (many years from now)
He is aware I have equity (my house, car, campervan etc.)and some savings. He says I must leave this behind in my country for the children. Although I did say I would buy a land and build a house for us - should we continue in our relationship and want to stay in Egypt. If I did this it would be in my name (and the children's) ONLY.
I am quite careful with money - I have worked long and hard to provide security for myself and children - so I am confident my purse will stay closed
Having said all this - i can see that if we do work things out together - we can all have a fairly good life in Egypt - I can provide a good home (as explained above) he can provide us with his earnings. And if i choose to work then this will be a bonus.
Finally, my children and I are not very materialistic - i have tried very hard 'to keep their feet on the ground' - I give you an example - we save every year for christmas - not to buy ourselves or family gifts - rather we sit and look at a catalogue together and decide how many goats, chickens etc. we can afford for the third world (a sevice provided by a charity here). (However they do get some 'santa' presents.) As well, this christmas we did some travelling (6 weeks) - not as 'tourists' rather we ate, slept and lived with the indigenous people of the country we visited (this is when we meet this Egyptian man)
Yes i understand we have the comfort of our home to return to - but this is the best I can do in an attempt to instill some knowledge / reality of the non-western world around us.
[This message has been edited by Maxine (edited 10 February 2005).]
posted
If i have not understand wrongly, you are paying the going trip to USA to visit you, then. And he is going to pay the return...
I am sorry to be so cinical but I would be VERY sure he is coming ONLY to VISIT you and that your plans will be followed exactly as you both have said.
I must warn you that they don't have the same meaning of "giving my word to you..." there's a sentence that says that when an arabic says "YES" is, in real terms, saying "PROBABLY".
posted
We intend to live for the 6 months in my friend's house in Cairo - but not overtly as 'lovers' - this is for my children's sake, they must get used to the idea of my friend and I as 'close friends' before we introduce the idea of a more deeper relationship.
Do you intend to live with him in the same house, this isn't OK in Egypt unless you are married. I sincerely hope he's not suggesting you live together & make up your mind about the relationship after you have lived together for a while. You mention that he is aware of the fact that you have money put aside for your children; what I find worrying is that he is already telling you that the money may have to be used later on to pay for university fees. If he is so keen to treat your children as his own, he should provide for the family, that's the way it is done here. I also don't buy his point of view on having kids of his own, so unlike most Egyptian males. Be very careful about this person.
posted
I agree with you Ann about the point of the children. I woud be aware. Your intentions are kind, Maxine, but I personally fins it too perfect to be true. Ou sound like a very open minden woman, but Egyptian men are not as open as they man seem. It's a very very contradictive culture.
Although you say your are not rich, believe me: for this guy, you are VERY RICH only because you have a bit of money in the bank, a car and a house. Believe me. I am not saying he will be a completely asshole, but maybe he won't be the man you expect or the man he wants you to believe he is. SOME Egyptian men change very much when they have its lady assured.
Ask yourself one question.
DId you TRUST him DEEPLY before readinf this forum or you had any kind of doubt??? If the question is you had doubts before, ask yourself why he made you doubt and keep on remebering it while you listen to his love WORDS and only WORDS.
quote:Originally posted by Ann: what I find worrying is that he is already telling you that the money may have to be used later on to pay for university fees. If he is so keen to treat your children as his own, he should provide for the family, that's the way it is done here.
Just a quick point here, Muslim men are not obligated to provide for another man’s children, their own father remains responsible for them financially until his sons have completed their studies and his daughters until they marry.
posted
I smell no corpses here, so where do all these vultures gather from...? keeps me fascinated.
Posts: 90 | From: www.visitestonia.com | Registered: Feb 2005
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This man suggested we live in his house when we go to Egypt - he will stay at his sister's house (although we will steal nights together) We want to develop this relationship slowly - for the good of all of us.
Yes i probably do seem so rich - in his eyes - this is a disadvantage - for he is "the man who must provide"
If we do make a go of things - i said will buy land and build us a house - he says he is not entirely happy with this idea - however I do not see why we should live central Cairo - when we can all enjoy the benefits of a more rural setting - perhaps he does feel he has hit the jackpot - and he certainly will benefit from the luxury of living there - but it would never be 'his' house - but i would do this for all of us - but for the children mostly - he would have no claim to this house if we were to split up (i will ensure this is the case - legally)
The money i have put away for the children is for their education - if they desire to go to university. Yes this man did say we would PROBABLY use this when they go to university - i took this as this man being honest - that while he will be able to provide for us most things he is aware he MAY not be able to provide all for us.
I have not ruled out the notion of having a child to him - however i will NOT rush into this decision - even though time is not in my favour.
I agree that so far we have only words - words - words - words - so many have been spoken - so many ideas and dreams explored - but these are words - ACTIONS SPEAK MUCH LOUDER THAN WORDS - this i am only too aware of this is why i decided to go to Egypt for the 6 month 'lets see' period
I am in a quandary ....... * i will readily go to Egypt to give this relationship my (our) best shot. If it goes pear shaped then we will return home - yes we will be hurt - but we can benefit from all experiences - even if they do not turn out as expected - BUT ONLY IF the foundation of these expectations are based on honesty
BUT
* if this is a con - i run the risk of deeply hurting my children and myself???
I did have trust in him before I came to this forum ? - indeed i still have no concrete reason to doubt him ....
BUT I DID STUMBLE ON THIS FORUM (by chance or an act of the universe?) and to be honest I do not know how i feel now - i would be stupid not to heed the many words of warning I read in these (and other posts)
Ahhhhh CATCH 22 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The jury is still out ............... :-)
[This message has been edited by Maxine (edited 10 February 2005).]
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The same is true about me - I don't know how to feel any more, after this forum :). I guess it is like with love--are you a better person with hinm or does he make you worse? In the last case on should refrain and flee because is no good influence for you. I thus think one should flee this forum and its advice :).
About hurting: no one can hurt anyone who does not choose to feel hurt. If he is a con, he is worth nothing, thus whatever he does is worth nothing. And he will not have you then.
I'm just amazed that taking the high number of women constantly marrying for economic reasons and the number of marriages actually functioning quite well this way, and the number of marriages or (more modernly) cohabitations where people accidentally have money but, mysteriously, they also have all the normal feelings of human beings... what's the issue about Egyptian men breathing, and feeding on, money only???
Welcome to the third world. If I was in your man's shoes, I would contemplate the very easy task of faking ownership of the new rural house, then have you kicked out. Your legal status as an unmarried foreigner would be questionable. To be on the safe side, ensure that you both have equal vested interests in the relationship. Your man is obviously trying to climb the social ladder, just try not to be that ladder.
posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pritipersoon55: [B]The same is true about me - I don't know how to feel any more, after this forum . I guess it is like with love--are you a better person with hinm or does he make you worse? In the last case on should refrain and flee because is no good influence for you. I thus think one should flee this forum and its advice .
Priti, I really like you you are an optimist. Maxine,
If you do not give this realtionship a try you will always wonder what if...... what have you to lose.
I have been seeing an egyptian man for 18 months, I see him frequently he is 20 years younger than me. No I am not fat or ugly,but I am fairly wealthy. So no doubt this man is after my money isnt he. At least that is what I was told on this forum and many people pleaded with me to give him up, before he broke my heart and took off with my money. Well he has not broken my heart and he has not taken anything from me. I know my time is limited with this man not because of him, or children, or his religion or his family, but because of me.
Because I feel somehow my relationship is inferior. And as much as I love this man and he loves me I am somehow not really comfortable with it. Maybe because of the way it is viewed in Egypt.People probably think I am his sugar mummy.
He is possible the sweetest,most generous romantic man I have ever met.
I would not have changed the last 18 months with this man, it has been a wonderful experience, but everyday I ask myself where it is going.
If I had thought with my head and not my heart, things would have been do different.
So think very carefully before becoming involved with a man younger than yourself, who no doubt will love you like you have never been loved before, because we as women have the inability to think that maybe,just maybe this man actually loves you for yourself.
Posts: 343 | From: Wiltshire, England | Registered: Mar 2004
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Ge Ge - you have hit the nail on its head !!!
You wrote: "Because I feel somehow my relationship is inferior. And as much as I love this man and he loves me I am somehow not really comfortable with it. Maybe because of the way it is viewed in Egypt.People probably think I am his sugar mummy."
I felt this when we were toether - i saw people look at us - sometimes i felt uncomfortable. He was so demonstrative - arms around me - holding me - kissing me.
Now could i cope with these attitudes - prejudices - comments - laughs - even scorn - as i walk with my man in Egypt ? - I could probably most of the time - but i cannot expect my children to do this ......... a new delemma is born ............ ohhhhhhh !!!
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