posted
hi everyone. i would like to open a thread about how divorced women are viewed in egypt. elhamdullelah i'm not divorced myself and inshallah hopefully i won't be, so my post will not be from a direct experience but rather from the experiences of divorced friends and relatives, as well as from what i see happening everyday in egypt. i will not though discuss the divorce proceedings or the legal side of divorce, i will discuss the status of women after they obtain the divorce. well, many egyptian women are scared of divorce, and sometimes would go out of their way to make a failing marriage work, so as to avoid being divorced. a divorced woman in egypt is stigimitzed, everything that she says or does will be forever judged by the fact that she is divorced. usually in egypt if a woman is divorced without having children, she would return to live with her family if she has children she might continue living in her own apartment. the woman's family, would start becoming very strict, and would set very rigid rules about when she goes out, when she comes home, what she wears and how she behaves in general. this would be done, in order to "protect her reputation." because divorced women are not virgins anymore, many people assume that they will sleep around. they assume that the only thing that keeps a woman from sleeping around before marriage is her hymen, and now that its broken, she will be free. in fact a divorced woman, might start getting annoying offers from men, who think that just because she is divorced she will sleep with them. thus a divorced woman, would be under a huge pressure to protect her reputation, by making sure she's not overly friendly, going home early etc. she would hesitate to do things, that she never thought about twice before. these restrictions, specifically from the parents are very suffocating for a woman. as i said many parents set rules for their divorced daughters, and treat them like children, which is very frustrating because they are grown up women who were married, and had their own homes,and maybe even have children. further, marriage prospects for a divorced woman become more difficult. because virginity is prized here in egypt, many men wouldn't marry a divorced woman. thus the options for other divorced women would be either divorced or widowed men. i've witnessed once a heartbreaking story between a divorced woman and a man who never married before. his entire family rejected her because she had previously married, and they had to break up. also one of my best friends got divorced and whenever she feels any attraction to a guy who never married before, she would stop talking to him, because she knows it will end in heartbreak. also many people blame a divorced woman for the breakup of her first marriage. this could be another obstacle if the woman wishes to remarry, because grooms would assume that the reason her previous marriage failed is because "she did something wrong." the worst case is for women who had done the katb el ketab, but not married yet. these women would have to walk around with the divorce stigma without actually experiencing a married life. i know that in a way this is a generalization, but i just tried to be as accurate as i am. i really hope the day comes when people undersand that divorce is not a woman's fault, nor is a divorced woman "easy," and that if a woman is in an unhappy marriage, she has a right to find happiness elsewhere
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Thanks for this thread 7aya. One of my friends is divorced, and the life she's having is really a sad one. But hopefully, mentalities will change. You know, in Europe, it was like that let's say, 30 years ago. And now, it's just a normal thing. Still a very sad and difficult step to live, personally, but at least no one judges you anymore.
Posts: 213 | From: Paris/ Le Caire | Registered: May 2005
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posted
It is quite sad how divorced women are looked in this country. My boyfriend here in Alex used to date a divorced woman with a child for about 3 years. His family threatened to abandon him and would reject her if he decided to marry her. It was really sad because both loved each other. Luckily, this woman has now remarried and is happy. What I find interesting is how Egyptian men will never consider marrying a non-virgin but when a Westerner comes along it does'nt matter is she has 2 or more kids out of wedlock. In Dallas I know quite a bit of Arabs and they all have girlfriends that have children out of wedlock and heaps of other issues. It's disgusting. American men would never give the time of day to these women. It's like they go for the extreme example of the woman they were taught to marry. Why is that you think?
quote:Originally posted by 7aya: hi everyone. i would like to open a thread about how divorced women are viewed in egypt. elhamdullelah i'm not divorced myself and inshallah hopefully i won't be, so my post will not be from a direct experience but rather from the experiences of divorced friends and relatives, as well as from what i see happening everyday in egypt. i will not though discuss the divorce proceedings or the legal side of divorce, i will discuss the status of women after they obtain the divorce. well, many egyptian women are scared of divorce, and sometimes would go out of their way to make a failing marriage work, so as to avoid being divorced. a divorced woman in egypt is stigimitzed, everything that she says or does will be forever judged by the fact that she is divorced. usually in egypt if a woman is divorced without having children, she would return to live with her family if she has children she might continue living in her own apartment. the woman's family, would start becoming very strict, and would set very rigid rules about when she goes out, when she comes home, what she wears and how she behaves in general. this would be done, in order to "protect her reputation." because divorced women are not virgins anymore, many people assume that they will sleep around. they assume that the only thing that keeps a woman from sleeping around before marriage is her hymen, and now that its broken, she will be free. in fact a divorced woman, might start getting annoying offers from men, who think that just because she is divorced she will sleep with them. thus a divorced woman, would be under a huge pressure to protect her reputation, by making sure she's not overly friendly, going home early etc. she would hesitate to do things, that she never thought about twice before. these restrictions, specifically from the parents are very suffocating for a woman. as i said many parents set rules for their divorced daughters, and treat them like children, which is very frustrating because they are grown up women who were married, and had their own homes,and maybe even have children. further, marriage prospects for a divorced woman become more difficult. because virginity is prized here in egypt, many men wouldn't marry a divorced woman. thus the options for other divorced women would be either divorced or widowed men. i've witnessed once a heartbreaking story between a divorced woman and a man who never married before. his entire family rejected her because she had previously married, and they had to break up. also one of my best friends got divorced and whenever she feels any attraction to a guy who never married before, she would stop talking to him, because she knows it will end in heartbreak. also many people blame a divorced woman for the breakup of her first marriage. this could be another obstacle if the woman wishes to remarry, because grooms would assume that the reason her previous marriage failed is because "she did something wrong." the worst case is for women who had done the katb el ketab, but not married yet. these women would have to walk around with the divorce stigma without actually experiencing a married life. i know that in a way this is a generalization, but i just tried to be as accurate as i am. i really hope the day comes when people undersand that divorce is not a woman's fault, nor is a divorced woman "easy," and that if a woman is in an unhappy marriage, she has a right to find happiness elsewhere
posted
Divorce in the Muslim world (some more than others) is barbaric and based on outmoded model of societal relationship. Lets pretend both partners are at fault at least 50% of the time while saying that the rest she is still blamed for asserting her self! What about the individual character of the woman who stays home, takes care of her children and seeks to get a higher university education to better the prospects of her children to be independent!! With all that she is still considered stigmatized. That is not a progressive mode of thought for a society that was considered civilized in the "Goldern Age" of Muslim science.
posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by yazid904: Divorce in the Muslim world (some more than others) is barbaric and based on outmoded model of societal relationship. Lets pretend both partners are at fault at least 50% of the time while saying that the rest she is still blamed for asserting her self! What about the individual character of the woman who stays home, takes care of her children and seeks to get a higher university education to better the prospects of her children to be independent!! With all that she is still considered stigmatized. That is not a progressive mode of thought for a society that was considered civilized in the "Goldern Age" of Muslim science.
mamnoon[/QUOTE
my entire post was about the arab culture not islam. many parts of the divorce procedure in egypt are actually aainst the islamic law. if real islam was applied this would not be the case. frienda, what you are saying is true. egyptian men demand virginity from egyptian women, but they don't mind marrying a non virgin western woman. its just the typical egyptian double standards
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
As usual, 7aya, very interesting topic. i can't comment very much on it since I don't know much about Egyptian culture. But I have a couple of questions about it.
Are older widowed or divorced men more likely to want to marry a young bride the second time around? I mean, in the US, where at least 2 marriages are the norm (!) divorced men and women generally marry someone around their own age rather than go for the really young woman (or man). Obviously there are exceptions to that -- Demi Moore and Ashton Kutcher, Donald Trump and model-of-the-week.
So I was just wondering about age being a factor. My fiance is American in many ways, but he seemed really Egyptian when it came to courtship/marriage. In other words, he does not and has not *dated*. In any event, he is 45 and genuinely wanted someone around his own age. So stereotyping as I do, I just figured most Egyptians were this way.... ??? No?
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
As a Westerner I found I was treated very differently because my marriage ended in death rather than divorce. The moment I told people my husband was dead they seemed immediately to change attitude and treat me with respect.
Even though I have remarried I still find local people seem to respect me more because I was a widow before hand.
quote:Originally posted by akshar: As a Westerner I found I was treated very differently because my marriage ended in death rather than divorce. The moment I told people my husband was dead they seemed immediately to change attitude and treat me with respect.
Even though I have remarried I still find local people seem to respect me more because I was a widow before hand.
What about someone like me who's 38 and never been married? Are Egyptians going to automatically think I'm trash?
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
hi snoozin, how are you? well as i said divorced women are often limited to divorced or widowed men. divorced men often find themselves in the same situation and are refused by virgin brides because they are thought of as "second hand" material. however, if a divorced man wishes to marry a younger woman it can be accepted if he is very rich, or if the young woman is passing the egyptian "marriagable age" and thus is "forced" to accept a divorced woman. but even if he's neither rich nor she a "spinster" it is more accepted for a man to go for a virgin bride then for a divorced woman to go for a never married before groom. in fact the latter can be considered rare. did i answer your question or did i confuse you more ? also i repeat these are generalizations, every situation is different akshar i want to make two comments to your post, firstly people showed sympathy because you are widowed. and by the way divorced women also get sympathy but still that doesn't stop them from getting trapped in the social restrictions i mentioned above. also another thing is that often egyptians accept things from foreigners they won't accept from locals. like the example frienda gave above, of how her fiance's example rejected his exlove because she was egyptian and divorced yet had no problem with her even though shes not a virgin.
best
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
In the Name of Allah, the Benificent, the Most Merciful. Salam Alaykum to all those that follow the right path of Islam
My dear muslim sister's And I write this knowing that a majority of people who will read this are women. It is most unfortunate that you feel stigmatised when you are divorced.It should not be so but the realty of it is it is so. I ask you to see it from the point of view of the families that have a divorced member in thier families.As was so rightly pointed out a majority of men in this day and age are somewhat perverted in thier perpespective of divorced women.Although divorce is disliked it happens sometimes and the divorced woman needs to be protected from scandlous tongues and men who may try to prey on her because she has no husband who will take out his sword and behead any man who attacks her honor.Thus the reason that most families become more strict.A majority of men dont really understand the role that a woman plays in society so I ask for forgiveness for my male bretheren. Afterall Allah may have given us more strength physically but he gave you guys more brains and a womans intuition. Every man came from a women,most likely got his name from a woman and was almost certainly raised by a woman.Until men realise that women are the very foundations of our society uch biase will always continue and I hope that we will not go down the path of the so called "civilised" world of the west where women in the search of rights and recognition have been degrade to mere chattels for mens unchecked dehumanising desires. If the are any divorced women looking for a good muslim husband there are always men out there who are not backward in thier thinking and Allah is the best of providers take your call to him he answers all
Posts: 39 | From: United Kindom | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by braveheart: In the Name of Allah, the Benificent, the Most Merciful. Salam Alaykum to all those that follow the right path of Islam
My dear muslim sister's And I write this knowing that a majority of people who will read this are women. It is most unfortunate that you feel stigmatised when you are divorced.It should not be so but the realty of it is it is so. I ask you to see it from the point of view of the families that have a divorced member in thier families.As was so rightly pointed out a majority of men in this day and age are somewhat perverted in thier perpespective of divorced women.Although divorce is disliked it happens sometimes and the divorced woman needs to be protected from scandlous tongues and men who may try to prey on her because she has no husband who will take out his sword and behead any man who attacks her honor.Thus the reason that most families become more strict.A majority of men dont really understand the role that a woman plays in society so I ask for forgiveness for my male bretheren. Afterall Allah may have given us more strength physically but he gave you guys more brains and a womans intuition. Every man came from a women,most likely got his name from a woman and was almost certainly raised by a woman.Until men realise that women are the very foundations of our society uch biase will always continue and I hope that we will not go down the path of the so called "civilised" world of the west where women in the search of rights and recognition have been degrade to mere chattels for mens unchecked dehumanising desires. If the are any divorced women looking for a good muslim husband there are always men out there who are not backward in thier thinking and Allah is the best of providers take your call to him he answers all
we aelekum el salam braveheart, thank you for your post its beautiful. and i really agree that the main problem is due to the fact that men don't understand the role of women in society
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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It's nice to hear from an open-minded person like you. Marital status is not always an indicator of character.
Salaam,
Snoozin
quote:Originally posted by braveheart: In the Name of Allah, the Benificent, the Most Merciful. Salam Alaykum to all those that follow the right path of Islam
My dear muslim sister's And I write this knowing that a majority of people who will read this are women. It is most unfortunate that you feel stigmatised when you are divorced.It should not be so but the realty of it is it is so. I ask you to see it from the point of view of the families that have a divorced member in thier families.As was so rightly pointed out a majority of men in this day and age are somewhat perverted in thier perpespective of divorced women.Although divorce is disliked it happens sometimes and the divorced woman needs to be protected from scandlous tongues and men who may try to prey on her because she has no husband who will take out his sword and behead any man who attacks her honor.Thus the reason that most families become more strict.A majority of men dont really understand the role that a woman plays in society so I ask for forgiveness for my male bretheren. Afterall Allah may have given us more strength physically but he gave you guys more brains and a womans intuition. Every man came from a women,most likely got his name from a woman and was almost certainly raised by a woman.Until men realise that women are the very foundations of our society uch biase will always continue and I hope that we will not go down the path of the so called "civilised" world of the west where women in the search of rights and recognition have been degrade to mere chattels for mens unchecked dehumanising desires. If the are any divorced women looking for a good muslim husband there are always men out there who are not backward in thier thinking and Allah is the best of providers take your call to him he answers all
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by braveheart: I hope that we will not go down the path of the so called "civilised" world of the west where women in the search of rights and recognition have been degrade to mere chattels for mens unchecked dehumanising desires.
Salam braveheart,
Do you care to explain what you mean by "mere chattels for men's unchecked desires"???
I'm sorry to say so, but in Egypt I constantly have to be aware of being a sexual object for men even when simply walking down the street to get my groceries whereas in the oh-so-bad West no man would dare harrassing me.
posted
One of my brothers friends wanted to marry a divorced girl, he had never married before and just as you all describe his mother was outraged and viciously resisted the whole thing until he had no choice but to give up. The sadly ironic thing is now his mother is being divorced by her husband and must now face the same narrowminded attitude and stigma she herself perpetuated. Here i see women putting down other women when really we should be standing up for each other, as the mother learnt she herself was just as vulnerable.
Also i have a question - in Egypt if a couple get divorced before the children are 18 does the husband automatically gain custody of the children?
Posts: 201 | From: Australia | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by braveheart: Although divorce is disliked it happens sometimes and the divorced woman needs to be protected from scandlous tongues and men who may try to prey on her because she has no husband who will take out his sword and behead any man who attacks her honor.
It is that kind of mentality, ie that a man’s honor lies between the legs of a woman, that causes so much misfortunes for women. http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=18370 Women in Islam are regarded as sources of shame. Muhammad said they are awrah which can be translated as object of shame. The Encyclopedia of Islam defines 'awrah as pudendum, that is the external genitals, especially of the female. If a woman loses her awrah by e.g. through rape, etc (itcan be a million other things including divorce)she becomes the object of shame for her family and the only way to remove that shame and restore the honor is to remove that defiled woman. Honor killing for example is cultural, but it is a culture that is deeply rooted in Islamic mindset and derives from it. It is practiced in all Islamic countries. The more religious is a country, the more is widespread the honor killing. Women are asked to; “stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display” Quran) A woman who transgresses these orders becomes the source of shame to her family. She will not be marriageable, she and her family become the object of gossip of everyone. The entire family can lose prestige. No one would give a daughter to the brothers of that girl in marriage and no one would marry her sisters. The family and even the extended family are maligned and become outcasts. This can only stop if the family cleanses that stain with blood. The woman thus defiled must be sacrificed. As long as you are alive, it is your religious duty to be modest and cover this shame and not disgrace your qayyuums (male guardians). Your male kin, (father, brothers, husband, sons and even uncles) are your qayyuums and you are their awrah. If you make a dazzling display of yourself, the honor of all these "honorable" male relatives is injured and all of them have a right to burry you to restore their honor. Muslim men have very low self esteem but they compensate the smallness of their selfhood by inflating their ego. If you are a women related to them, they feel as if they own you. Whatever you do affects their gigantic ego. They are possessive and feel dishonored if you make a "dazzling display" of yourself. And of course if you are deflowered, this is an affront to their humongous pride. The damage is irreparable and the only way to restore that pride is to get rid of you. Honor killing is theoretically against the law in Islamic countries, but generally the sentences are light. Often they are a year of jail or only a few months. The judges are very "understanding" and sympathize with the killers who are also grieving for the loss of their loved one. Most likely the Judges would do the same in similar situations. Everyone agrees that this is a very unfortunate situation that has no other solution but taking the life of the poor girl. Often the brothers and the parents hug the lifeless cadaver of their victim and cry bitterly after stabbing her to death or strangulating her. They don't listen to her pleading and begging to spare her life, but sure they cry profusely for her after they kill her.
quote:Originally posted by braveheart: Thus the reason that most families become more strict.A majority of men dont really understand the role that a woman plays in society so I ask for forgiveness for my male bretheren. Afterall Allah may have given us more strength physically but he gave you guys more brains and a womans intuition. Every man came from a women,most likely got his name from a woman and was almost certainly raised by a woman.Until men realise that women are the very foundations of our society uch biase will always continue and I hope that we will not go down the path of the so called "civilised" world of the west where women in the search of rights and recognition have been degrade to mere chattels for mens unchecked dehumanising desires. If the are any divorced women looking for a good muslim husband there are always men out there who are not backward in thier thinking and Allah is the best of providers take your call to him he answers all
Allah gave women more brains? What do you base that on? Let's see, how well women are talked about in the quran and hadith.. We are told they are not equal in intelligence, that they are awrah...those are two nice starters. So actually the whole reason of many problems is all because of Women, I mean if the stupid women would just stay at home and be pregnant in the kitchen, and make sure to give all her milk to her children....the world would be perfect. If a woman and her holy tits and menstruation would stay at home, and every man could realise the place of women in society..unlike the "civilised" world of the west where women in the search of rights and recognition have been degrade to mere chattels, due to the fact that men don't understand the role of women in society.. WOW wonderful equal rights just whenever a problem occurs....blame it all on the women. Note for yourself....what Kind of problems Islamic societies have and what kind non-islamic societies have. http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=244
[This message has been edited by kafir4 ever (edited 28 August 2005).]
posted
Really, i hope someday the mentality of Men and Families change. When the girl has never been married, we care care about her virginitu, thats good. But why, after her name become Divorced Woman, we miss judge her. why we do not treat them as virgin girl as just she never done anything wrong. I know families are the problem, they face their sun strongly, but have never these families thought for a while what if they have a Divorced Woman, beside it is legal by islam, does our Traditionla OverCome the Islamic Learning.
specially the Divorced Woman is more weaker than before cuz she needs warm, and so real human.
I hope we involve these women by love and caring and not playing around
quote:Originally posted by 7aya: hi everyone. i would like to open a thread about how divorced women are viewed in egypt. elhamdullelah i'm not divorced myself and inshallah hopefully i won't be, so my post will not be from a direct experience but rather from the experiences of divorced friends and relatives, as well as from what i see happening everyday in egypt. i will not though discuss the divorce proceedings or the legal side of divorce, i will discuss the status of women after they obtain the divorce. well, many egyptian women are scared of divorce, and sometimes would go out of their way to make a failing marriage work, so as to avoid being divorced. a divorced woman in egypt is stigimitzed, everything that she says or does will be forever judged by the fact that she is divorced. usually in egypt if a woman is divorced without having children, she would return to live with her family if she has children she might continue living in her own apartment. the woman's family, would start becoming very strict, and would set very rigid rules about when she goes out, when she comes home, what she wears and how she behaves in general. this would be done, in order to "protect her reputation." because divorced women are not virgins anymore, many people assume that they will sleep around. they assume that the only thing that keeps a woman from sleeping around before marriage is her hymen, and now that its broken, she will be free. in fact a divorced woman, might start getting annoying offers from men, who think that just because she is divorced she will sleep with them. thus a divorced woman, would be under a huge pressure to protect her reputation, by making sure she's not overly friendly, going home early etc. she would hesitate to do things, that she never thought about twice before. these restrictions, specifically from the parents are very suffocating for a woman. as i said many parents set rules for their divorced daughters, and treat them like children, which is very frustrating because they are grown up women who were married, and had their own homes,and maybe even have children. further, marriage prospects for a divorced woman become more difficult. because virginity is prized here in egypt, many men wouldn't marry a divorced woman. thus the options for other divorced women would be either divorced or widowed men. i've witnessed once a heartbreaking story between a divorced woman and a man who never married before. his entire family rejected her because she had previously married, and they had to break up. also one of my best friends got divorced and whenever she feels any attraction to a guy who never married before, she would stop talking to him, because she knows it will end in heartbreak. also many people blame a divorced woman for the breakup of her first marriage. this could be another obstacle if the woman wishes to remarry, because grooms would assume that the reason her previous marriage failed is because "she did something wrong." the worst case is for women who had done the katb el ketab, but not married yet. these women would have to walk around with the divorce stigma without actually experiencing a married life. i know that in a way this is a generalization, but i just tried to be as accurate as i am. i really hope the day comes when people undersand that divorce is not a woman's fault, nor is a divorced woman "easy," and that if a woman is in an unhappy marriage, she has a right to find happiness elsewhere
quote:Originally posted by braveheart: where women in the search of rights and recognition have been degrade to mere chattels for mens unchecked dehumanising desires.
You call them "dehumanising desires" but there is nothing dehumanising and inherently sinful in sex. Muslim men are more obsessed with sex than the westerners as a result of the sexually repressive environment in which they grow up. The sexually charged atmosphere and the practice of sexual ostracism has brain damaged most of them. Sex is never a healthy exercise for Muslim men. they are traumatized by it. They have their sexual urges like any other but they are ashamed of it. They feel guilt for it and this guilt is the most devastating blow on their self confidence and self esteem. Muslims have a lot to say about Western sexual decadence, yet seem to have forgotten that the Islamic empire until recently was considered a hotbed of (homo-)sexuality. As as a result of the strong separation of sexes a significant homosexuality/pederasty existed. Muslims emphasize that homosexuality is forbidden by Islam, yet as always, the opposite is being practised. From the nineteenth century onward many Western gays visited Muslim north Africa for its laxity in sexual mores, which their own society condemned. One wonders whether this enormous suppression of sexuality is an explanation for excessive religious fervour. http://www.flickr.com/photos/15609239@N00/26213614/
[This message has been edited by kafir4 ever (edited 28 August 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by kafir4 ever: You call them "dehumanising desires" but there is nothing dehumanising and inherently sinful in sex. Muslim men are more obsessed with sex than the westerners as a result of the sexually repressive environment in which they grow up. The sexually charged atmosphere and the practice of sexual ostracism has brain damaged most of them. Sex is never a healthy exercise for Muslim men. they are traumatized by it. They have their sexual urges like any other but they are ashamed of it. They feel guilt for it and this guilt is the most devastating blow on their self confidence and self esteem. Muslims have a lot to say about Western sexual decadence, yet seem to have forgotten that the Islamic empire until recently was considered a hotbed of (homo-)sexuality. As as a result of the strong separation of sexes a significant homosexuality/pederasty existed. Muslims emphasize that homosexuality is forbidden by Islam, yet as always, the opposite is being practised. From the nineteenth century onward many Western gays visited Muslim north Africa for its laxity in sexual mores, which their own society condemned. One wonders whether this enormous suppression of sexuality is an explanation for excessive religious fervour. http://www.flickr.com/photos/15609239@N00/26213614/
[This message has been edited by kafir4 ever (edited 28 August 2005).]
racist4ever i'm still waiting for your answers concerning those bible verses in the religon section. or are you scarwwwwwd???
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by braveheart: I hope that we will not go down the path of the so called "civilised" world of the west where women in the search of rights and recognition have been degrade to mere chattels for mens unchecked dehumanising desires.
I never felt I was considered as something sexual in the West you know...I'm scared for being a girl, sometimes, here in Egypt...Sad but true. In my country, I can walk freely in the street, I can't, in Egypt. I'm always bothered by frustrated guys. Yeah, they don't understand the role of a woman in the society...But isn't it the time, now, to try to explain them?? How many more years are we going to wait until their stubborn mind change??
Please, let's take the best from the West, and apply it here in Egypt. Just like there are so many good things in Egypt we should apply in the West. But let's stop with all these simplistic statements, we all have a brain to think with, the West isn't the evil, just like the East is not full of fanatic men with women not allowed to leave home without permission...
[This message has been edited by RaniaMe (edited 28 August 2005).]
[This message has been edited by RaniaMe (edited 28 August 2005).]
[This message has been edited by RaniaMe (edited 28 August 2005).]
Posts: 213 | From: Paris/ Le Caire | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by RaniaMe: I never felt I was considered as something sexual in the West you know...I'm scared for being a girl, sometimes, here in Egypt...Sad but true. In my country, I can walk freely in the street, I can't, in Egypt. I'm always bothered by frustrated guys. Yeah, they don't understand the role of a woman in the society...But isn't it the time, now, to try to explain them?? How many more years are we going to wait until their stubborn mind change??
Please, let's take the best from the West, and apply it here in Egypt. Just like there are so many good things in Egypt we should apply in the West. But let's stop with all these simplistic statements, we all have a brain to think with, the West isn't the evil, just like the East is not full of fanatic men with women not allowed to leave home without permission...
).]
I absolutely agree RaniaMe. I have never ever felt sexually degraded in the West be it in the work place, on the streets or in the home. I wish I could say the same for Egypt. I also think many men in Egypt do understand the role of women in society but there are far too many that do not and continue to see women as second class citizens whether they are divorced, single or married.
As for divorced women of Egypt I think they have a role to play in the advancement of women. They are no longer the child brides needing the custody of their families, they know how to run their own homes, bring up their children and many work at the same time. They are a unique group of women that are in a position to show indepenance and advance the position of women in society.
In the West there are many support groups for divorced women which are so needed when a woman finds herself alone for the first time with the responsibility of a family. I wonder if there are such groups in Egypt.
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In the Name of Allah,the Benificent,the Merciful. Salam alaykum to those that follow the guidance and light of Islam
To the kafir4ever character,good for you. Your ignorance shines like the sun on a hot day and may you bath in such light until Allah chooses to guide you. My dear sister Dalia, masha Allah,it is a wonderfull name,what I meant by the term that they become objects for mens desire's is that things are not always what they seem, so in the west where women are "liberated" they are in reality slaves to the deires of men and they remain ignorant of that fact.I speak from experience because I was not always a muslim (i was a christian) but i've "seen the other side" of this doubled standard that is played out nearly every day. They use pictures of undressed women to sell car's,videos even shampoo for the dog. the women doing it thinks she's a "model" and she's doing it cause she want's to but in essence she is only satisfying man's pleasure in seeing women in that state. Man only has two primal basic needs and that is sex and food.It has been proven by islamic scholars of the past such as Imam Ghazali in his book entitled Breaking the two desires, and by western scientist's of our time. This knowledge has been passed on to advertising agency's and they use this promote various products using or trying to create "desire" for a certain thing. so when a man goes shopping with his wife and he see's dog shampoo and then he smiles and put's it in the shopping basket and his wife wonder's to herself........he has never washed the dog why is he getting shampoo?...... another example would be the so called "red light"districts where women wait in shop windows for all to see so that any fool stupid enough to pass by can empty his pockets and have her for half an hour if that. there is now no difference between going down to shop for your family or to shop for a women to rent. Is this liberation......where a woman wears a skirt that start's where it stop's for the pleasure of men and she fool's herself into thinking that she is doing this because she is liberated. in reality she likes the attention she gets from men. as to the men in egypt......well from what i have seen they are amongst the most beautifull women in the the world and the hooligans that harass that them....well a dog will always be a dog even if it eats cat food.I would have thought that if a woman was covered up and she had her wali with her she would not be harrassed but i guess the view of life is different from a penthouse overlooking the nile. I hardly ever socialise on street corners but forgive my biase when I sympathise with the men on the street. it is no excuse and i condone such behaviour but you have to realise that man was created weak. some more than others. the nature of man is individualistic and self satisfying and until the realisation that to educate a man is to educate an individual and to educate a woman is to educate and liberate a nation is realised we will always have problems,but this can be combated by you women who read this and who then teach thier son's not to respect only thier mother but all womankind as well. note:if this is replied to please send me a quick note at northernstargold@yahoo.co.uk as sometimes i get so busy i forget things
Posts: 39 | From: United Kindom | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by frienda: It is quite sad how divorced women are looked in this country. My boyfriend here in Alex used to date a divorced woman with a child for about 3 years. His family threatened to abandon him and would reject her if he decided to marry her. It was really sad because both loved each other. Luckily, this woman has now remarried and is happy. What I find interesting is how Egyptian men will never consider marrying a non-virgin but when a Westerner comes along it does'nt matter is she has 2 or more kids out of wedlock. In Dallas I know quite a bit of Arabs and they all have girlfriends that have children out of wedlock and heaps of other issues. It's disgusting. American men would never give the time of day to these women. It's like they go for the extreme example of the woman they were taught to marry. Why is that you think?
im in plano and i dont find that at all.
Posts: 751 | From: US OF A | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Samia: No.. they'll just think you're a lesbian because tou haven't wanted to get tied down to one of their wonderful men!!!
Hmmmmm, lesbian.....or tramp.....which shall it be? Here in the US, it just means I have *issues.*
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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you know even though i agree with braveheart about the misconception of women's role in society i also have to join penny and raniame with the point of being treated as a sexual object. i walk here in egypt and there is hissing, and catcalling wherever i go. however, whenever i go to europe no one so much as gives me a second glance. and please it has nothing to do with the way you dress.i get harrased no matter how conservative i dress, and my veiled friends complain from the same treatment. snoozin no one will think you are trash just because you are unmarried. people in egypt understand that in the west people have many relationships without marriage, plus in egypt the marriage age is also rising big time.
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by 7aya: you know even though i agree with braveheart about the misconception of women's role in society i also have to join penny and raniame with the point of being treated as a sexual object. i walk here in egypt and there is hissing, and catcalling wherever i go. however, whenever i go to europe no one so much as gives me a second glance. and please it has nothing to do with the way you dress.i get harrased no matter how conservative i dress, and my veiled friends complain from the same treatment. snoozin no one will think you are trash just because you are unmarried. people in egypt understand that in the west people have many relationships without marriage, plus in egypt the marriage age is also rising big time.
I'm just teasing...although I was a bit concerned about how my fiance's family would view me, but they welcomed me with open arms.
7aya, when guys catcall at you and stuff like that in Cairo, is it middle-to-upper class men, or kind of low-class men who do it? In the US, it's only low-class men who do that type of thing. I still get it if I'm in certain neighborhoods. Just wondering if it's class-oriented at all.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by 7aya: i walk here in egypt and there is hissing, and catcalling wherever i go. however, whenever i go to europe no one so much as gives me a second glance. and please it has nothing to do with the way you dress.
No, it has to do with the way women are viewed - as sexual objects that you have the right to harrass which was the point I made earlier on.
I'm well aware of sexism in the West, braveheart, since I spent most of my life there. But despite of this I've never experienced the kind of sexual harrassment I've experienced in Egypt, for example. There is something deeply wrong with a society's view on women if this is regarded socially acceptable and even schoolboys are taught that it's ok to harrass a woman or a girl.
I don't approve of naked flesh in the media but I disapprove even more of hypocrisy and double standards in regards to women.
quote:Originally posted by braveheart: I hardly ever socialise on street corners but forgive my biase when I sympathise with the men on the street. it is no excuse and i condone such behaviour but you have to realise that man was created weak. some more than others. the nature of man is individualistic and self satisfying
How come I know exactly where this argument is heading ... because men are so weak women need to cover up and stay at home in order not to tempt them and at the end of the day it's women's responsibility to keep up a society's morals. Men are just victims of their desires and their atrocious behaviour may be excused. I'm sorry but I don't think God created any gender weaker then the other, and I fail to see why men should not be held fully responsible for their behaviour! Posts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
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When I red this posting I just feel how lucky I am I did not stay in Egypt, but anyway I did not marry yet and I think why so difficult to be widow or divorced woman in Egypt? Why they treat like that? anyway I still respect with Egyptian.
Posts: 184 | From: Maadi-Cairo | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Dalia: [QUOTE]Originally posted by 7aya: [b] i walk here in egypt and there is hissing, and catcalling wherever i go. however, whenever i go to europe no one so much as gives me a second glance. and please it has nothing to do with the way you dress.
No, it has to do with the way women are viewed - as sexual objects that you have the right to harrass which was the point I made earlier on.
I'm well aware of sexism in the West, braveheart, since I spent most of my life there. But despite of this I've never experienced the kind of sexual harrassment I've experienced in Egypt, for example. There is something deeply wrong with a society's view on women if this is regarded socially acceptable and even schoolboys are taught that it's ok to harrass a woman or a girl.
I don't approve of naked flesh in the media but I disapprove even more of hypocrisy and double standards in regards to women. [/B][/QUOTE]
thats right. you know my mother told me that when she was young, she and her friends could wear anything and no would harass them. this concept of harrasment is fairly new, and along came with it the idea that its the women's fault because of how they dress. well then if its our fault, how come women weren't harrased in the 50's, 60's and 70's when the veil was rare, and women were walking around in mini skirts? you know i look at my mom's pics while she was in uni and i ask her, did you walk around like that?? and she says yes, everybody dressed like that. and my mother is not old, she's only 49! snoozin i can say from my experience that 95% of the harrasment comes from low class men. however, sometimes you will get the odd guy in a mercedes or bmw doing the same bloody thing. they think its funny. they don't understand that invading people's privacy and insulting them in the street is not funny at all.
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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7aya the thing I really don't understand in Egypt with the harrassment of women by men is that from what I see boys are primarily brought up by their mothers. So what is the mother's role in this aspect. Surely they teach their sons to respect women and not to behave in this way in the exact same way they seem to teach them to take care of their sisters. Does this not also get taught in School.
I find it very interesting what you say that this harrassment was not the same when your mother was younger especially as at that time is was not normal for women to be covered and they just dressed conservatively.
So what has changed? is it the rise of religious fundamentalism giving men the right to treat women more as second class citizens, or is something changing in the home that children are not being properly bought up.
quote:Originally posted by Penny: So what has changed? is it the rise of religious fundamentalism giving men the right to treat women more as second class citizens, or is something changing in the home that children are not being properly bought up.
Hi Penny,
I just wanted to say that religion is nothing got to do with this. And Islaam does not treat women as second class.
The reason why many young Egyptian men mind are like as you say, is the increase of the corruptive influence from the West. Where men can look and lust, where women have no limit to how bare thay want to go. This is the change. At least Islam sets a minimum limit to women to only show face, hands and feets. Or prohibts people lusting, as to lower their gaze instead. So I dont think pointing the finger at mothers will do any good.
And you can ask any muslimah here, im sure they will tell you they dont feel like a second class
[This message has been edited by Kamal211 (edited 29 August 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by 7aya: thats right. you know my mother told me that when she was young, she and her friends could wear anything and no would harass them. this concept of harrasment is fairly new, and along came with it the idea that its the women's fault because of how they dress. well then if its our fault, how come women weren't harrased in the 50's, 60's and 70's when the veil was rare, and women were walking around in mini skirts? you know i look at my mom's pics while she was in uni and i ask her, did you walk around like that?? and she says yes, everybody dressed like that. and my mother is not old, she's only 49! snoozin i can say from my experience that 95% of the harrasment comes from low class men. however, sometimes you will get the odd guy in a mercedes or bmw doing the same bloody thing. they think its funny. they don't understand that invading people's privacy and insulting them in the street is not funny at all.
You know 7aya..my mother was like that too! she used to wear miniskirts and tops. Which I always tease her about that. It was very normal and no guy would go to the level of harrassment that we see today. It seems instead of going forward we are going backwards in our culture.
About the divorce women, this goes I think for every arab nationality. Its even worse if she is iraqi. (they even blame the women for the divorce, no matter if he was cheating or not, if he was a bad guy or not). It makes me so angry when I hear this! And whats worse its the WOMEN who gossip and look down on them most.
[This message has been edited by Serendipity (edited 29 August 2005).]
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Pfff...Kamal, did you read what we ALL said here... In the West, there is no sexual harrasement like the one in Egypt...And we do have limits...I wasn't allowed to go out at night until I turned 18, and until I leave my mother's home, I still had a curfew, had to say where I was going to...I realyl don't know why some people think there are no limits in our countries...Such a strange conception. And yes, you can be a bad girl if you want, just like there are a lot of bad girls in Egypt. You're the one who chooses what you want to become. Yeah, in the street, and I'm a muslim, I feel I'm a second class citizen. In my family in law I'm respected. But I can't have my inlaws with me all the time. And I don't want to cover myself because of these ignorant guys in the street. And people there take the problem in the wrong sense, as Dalia said: we don't have to cover up because men are supposed to be weak. I never heard men were weak before coming to Egypt, and being said by all veiled girls, we don't have to tempt boys, they are so weak, we have to hide our hair then... All this is really BS. Men have to be educated, just as they are in the West: they have to learn how to respect a woman. It's high time to do so.
Posts: 213 | From: Paris/ Le Caire | Registered: May 2005
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I just wanted to add something: being a woman isn't that easy in Egypt, and for this, I really admire so much Egyptian women. They are so, so strong! I will never say enough how much I find them wonderful. Because they are just like us in the West, they work, they have children, they want to have a social life...just like us...but the price they have to pay for it is so high, and look at the consideration they get for all these efforts... So to all the Egyptian ladies of this forum, I want to say "bravo". I have so much to learn from you.
Posts: 213 | From: Paris/ Le Caire | Registered: May 2005
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Kama You failed to answer my question by trying to blame the West as usual. You are missing the point. The ladies here are making a very interesting point that women in Egypt did not used to cover and did not suffer harrassment, and in fact is that not at a time when Egypt was more close to the West and even occupied by Western forces. Since that time religious fundamentalism has risen and now more and more women are covering and yet now they are rightly complaining of more harrassment on the streets.
Compare that with your misheld view that the West is becoming more corrupt and yet we do not suffer any more harrasment than before. If anything I would say less due to women now being accepted as equal members of society.
quote:Originally posted by RaniaMe: I just wanted to add something: being a woman isn't that easy in Egypt, and for this, I really admire so much Egyptian women. They are so, so strong! I will never say enough how much I find them wonderful. Because they are just like us in the West, they work, they have children, they want to have a social life...just like us...but the price they have to pay for it is so high, and look at the consideration they get for all these efforts... So to all the Egyptian ladies of this forum, I want to say "bravo". I have so much to learn from you.
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I agree there is definitely something very wrong with the way Egyptian men view women (but its not just Egyptians,i have seen the same sort of behaviour from other arabic men in Dubai, Morocco and Oman). I know this has nothing to do with religion.. may be it has more to do with the fact that arab men (generalising here) seem to lean more towards a chauvanistic attitude and this harrassment maybe a way of showing their masculinity at a time when they feel it is being threatened by heavy unemployment, low moral and frustration (men being the traditional providers for the family) - problems that weren't as bad in the past. I'd be interested to hear the excuses..i mean views from some Egyptian men on this one.
[This message has been edited by Leila (edited 29 August 2005).]
Posts: 201 | From: Australia | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Penny: Kama You failed to answer my question by trying to blame the West as usual. You are missing the point. The ladies here are making a very interesting point that women in Egypt did not used to cover and did not suffer harrassment, and in fact is that not at a time when Egypt was more close to the West and even occupied by Western forces. Since that time religious fundamentalism has risen and now more and more women are covering and yet now they are rightly complaining of more harrassment on the streets.
Compare that with your misheld view that the West is becoming more corrupt and yet we do not suffer any more harrasment than before. If anything I would say less due to women now being accepted as equal members of society.
Penny i agree with you that there are harassment here in egypt. but I disagree with you that in the west you are equal. NO way! Maybe it looks that way on the outside. but when you go deeper in it, you will see its not equal at all! the diff between the harassment in egypt and the harassment in the west. In egypt its open...its loud and clear. In the west its hidden. and is shown in the way that ppl think its "good". Fex. that the huge amount of girls under the age of 18 that goes under the knife for a c-cup. And the hundreds of tv shows that says you have to go under the knife to look beautiful (or look like a barbie doll). Or that girls at the age of 13 thinks its rather cool to wear g strings and x-small tops to show off their not yet developed breasts. Or that they think sex is cool and it makes you popular and you end up having girls down to the age of 13 getting pregnant. What I am trying to say here. there IS harassment everywhere. But some places its shown more obvious and some places its hidden.
quote:Originally posted by Serendipity: Penny i agree with you that there are harassment here in egypt. but I disagree with you that in the west you are equal. NO way! Maybe it looks that way on the outside. but when you go deeper in it, you will see its not equal at all! the diff between the harassment in egypt and the harassment in the west. In egypt its open...its loud and clear. In the west its hidden. and is shown in the way that ppl think its "good". Fex. that the huge amount of girls under the age of 18 that goes under the knife for a c-cup. And the hundreds of tv shows that says you have to go under the knife to look beautiful (or look like a barbie doll). Or that girls at the age of 13 thinks its rather cool to wear g strings and x-small tops to show off their not yet developed breasts. Or that they think sex is cool and it makes you popular and you end up having girls down to the age of 13 getting pregnant. What I am trying to say here. there IS harassment everywhere. But some places its shown more obvious and some places its hidden.
Yes but trying to conform to western ideas of beauty is not harrassment, it's not just women in the west but men and boys also who feel the pressures of looking a certain way, dressing in the latest trends and there is a lot of pressure on men to have sex as soon as possible to save face with their friends. This is not the same as not being able to walk down the street without crude comments, hissing, being followed by men, having men grab you in crowded areas. This doesn't happen to nearly the same extent in the west.
Posts: 201 | From: Australia | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Leila: Yes but trying to conform to western ideas of beauty is not harrassment, it's not just women in the west but men and boys also who feel the pressures of looking a certain way, dressing in the latest trends and there is a lot of pressure on men to have sex as soon as possible to save face with their friends. This is not the same as not being able to walk down the street without crude comments, hissing, being followed by men, having men grab you in crowded areas. This doesn't happen to nearly the same extent in the west.
I agree with you on that. I was disagreeing on that in the west there is nothing of any sexual harrasment. Sure you walk freely in the streets. But the sex press is more phsychologically there then in egypt. I know that there is a lot of harrasment in egypt and many arab countries, and in india and pakistan. Its about time that that somebody does something about it.
[This message has been edited by Serendipity (edited 29 August 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by 7aya: snoozin i can say from my experience that 95% of the harrasment comes from low class men. however, sometimes you will get the odd guy in a mercedes or bmw doing the same bloody thing.
The majority of the men who harrass you are lower class but I also get harrassed sometimes by guys in business suits.
And the car thing is something I really, really hate. It happens quite a bit in Mohandesseen where I live - guys just pull on the side when you're walking or waiting for a taxi and motion for you to come inside. I find this extremely upsetting because they are basically suggesting you're a prostitute.
I usually kick their car as hard as I can which makes them disappear ...
quote:Originally posted by Leila: I agree there is definitely something very wrong with the way Egyptian men view women (but its not just Egyptians,i have seen the same sort of behaviour from other arabic men in Dubai, Morocco and Oman). I know this has nothing to do with religion.. may be it has more to do with the fact that arab men (generalising here) seem to lean more towards a chauvanistic attitude and this harrassment maybe a way of showing their masculinity at a time when they feel it is being threatened by heavy unemployment, low moral and frustration (men being the traditional providers for the family) - problems that weren't as bad in the past. I'd be interested to hear the excuses..i mean views from some Egyptian men on this one.
[This message has been edited by Leila (edited 29 August 2005).]
That's a very intriging point. I don't know enough about Egyptian culture, but that *cause* (unemployment, etc. being an insult against a man's sense of masculinity) of men's displaying harrassing behavior might have a lot to do with why some men here in the US do it..
Interesting.....I'll have to think about that one.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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Car thing always happen in haram where I live and guys done’ t care u r young or old-pretty or not-veil or unveil they harass all women walking or waiting for a taxi but what hurts me more when i m angry and even couldn’t t cry on their face as they run away before I can do so
[This message has been edited by doudd (edited 29 August 2005).]
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Thats why, Girls whenever you're out carry with you a small bottle of aceton! one drop of aceton and the car is doomed. Muahahahaha
Posts: 2519 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Still wanting to understand the input of mothers in this problem of harrassment. It's no good women complaining if they are doing nothing to stop the problem in the first place. Any son of mine who was disrespectful in this way would find his life VERY hard.
The Koran teaches respect of mothers, careing for family and kindness to all human beings...so what is going wrong.
quote:Originally posted by Serendipity: Thats why, Girls whenever you're out carry with you a small bottle of aceton! one drop of aceton and the car is doomed. Muahahahaha
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also i repeat these are generalizations, every situation is different
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