quote:

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Originally posted by Penny:
7aya the thing I really don't understand in Egypt with the harrassment of women by men is that from what I see boys are primarily brought up by their mothers. So what is the mother's role in this aspect. Surely they teach their sons to respect women and not to behave in this way in the exact same way they seem to teach them to take care of their sisters. Does this not also get taught in School.

I find it very interesting what you say that this harrassment was not the same when your mother was younger especially as at that time is was not normal for women to be covered and they just dressed conservatively.

So what has changed? is it the rise of religious fundamentalism giving men the right to treat women more as second class citizens, or is something changing in the home that children are not being properly bought up.

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hi penny, you know when i was still training to be a journalist, i was so upset from harrasment, i asked my editor if i can write an article about it as part of my training. it never got published, but i interviewd a psychologist, a sociologist a feminist, as well as normal guys in the street. basically i wanted to know the causes of harrasment, and from what i remember the following reasons were given

-high rate of unemployment
-stress and frustration from increasing economic and social problems which makes people vent out their frustration on each other on the street
- delay of marriage due to finanical problems
- lack of respect to the privacy of others
- having fun and passing the time (its bizarre i know)
- no other way to approach a woman

I wont go into the argument about women rights in Islaam and how they treated and how they compare, cos that is just a silly argument.

No doubt Muslim women have more rights and are treated much better [based on pure Sharia, not what you see today, a mixture of laws in Muslim land] than other women from any country/nation in the planet

The only thing I disagree is you blaming Islaam without fully knowing and understanding the religion.

Even Islaam knows how to treat prisoners, not only do men in some western country sexaully harrass people, their women in the army sexaully assualt their prisoner.
I wouldnt be suprised at the current weak and vunerable state of the muslim, if the adopt this same attidute.

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I also think the term "western" is a misleading term. Because not every country are alike, nor are the people, and not all of those countries are in the west.

I want to say "bravo" aswell, to all the muslimah in those western countries, who still are strong willed and still adhere to their islamic faith, wear their hijaab, fighting all social pressue, taunts, discrimination from ther "fellow" citizens.

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Originally posted by RaniaMe:
I just wanted to add something: being a woman isn't that easy in Egypt, and for this, I really admire so much Egyptian women. They are so, so strong! I will never say enough how much I find them wonderful. Because they are just like us in the West, they work, they have children, they want to have a social life...just like us...but the price they have to pay for it is so high, and look at the consideration they get for all these efforts...
So to all the Egyptian ladies of this forum, I want to say "bravo". I have so much to learn from you.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Serendipity:
really? it doesnt help with me. I have two big brothers which look like body guard or more likely gorillaz. But it didnt stop the guys ..then i start to wonder if they are just suicidal

[This message has been edited by Serendipity (edited 29 August 2005).]

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Originally posted by Leila:
Yes but trying to conform to western ideas of beauty is not harrassment, it's not just women in the west but men and boys also who feel the pressures of looking a certain way, dressing in the latest trends and there is a lot of pressure on men to have sex as soon as possible to save face with their friends.

This is not the same as not being able to walk down the street without crude comments, hissing, being followed by men, having men grab you in crowded areas. This doesn't happen to nearly the same extent in the west.

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As I keep on saying take away those American Hollywood movie, where else do they learn all this *hissing* and *hooting*, and doing a *drive-by*.

If any Muslim country tried to be Islamic, the goverment would be labelled as terrrorist, so they goverment are also stuck as what to do. Be carpet bombed or be religios??
What a world we live in

quote:

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Originally posted by 7aya:
hi penny, you know when i was still training to be a journalist, i was so upset from harrasment, i asked my editor if i can write an article about it as part of my training. it never got published, but i interviewd a psychologist, a sociologist a feminist, as well as normal guys in the street. basically i wanted to know the causes of harrasment, and from what i remember the following reasons were given

-high rate of unemployment
-stress and frustration from increasing economic and social problems which makes people vent out their frustration on each other on the street
- delay of marriage due to finanical problems
- lack of respect to the privacy of others
- having fun and passing the time (its bizarre i know)
- no other way to approach a woman

now this last one really struck a chord with me. i mean seriously if in the west a guy sees a woman he likes what will he do? hell aproach her, say hi, my name is so and so, whats your name? would you like to go for some coffee? and the woman will say yes or not. but this scenario doesnt happen in egypt, its simply not allowed, and thus many men find the only way to approach a woman is through catcalling and whisteling!

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quote:

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Originally posted by 7aya:
hi penny, you know when i was still training to be a journalist, i was so upset from harrasment, i asked my editor if i can write an article about it as part of my training. it never got published, but i interviewd a psychologist, a sociologist a feminist, as well as normal guys in the street. basically i wanted to know the causes of harrasment, and from what i remember the following reasons were given

-high rate of unemployment
-stress and frustration from increasing economic and social problems which makes people vent out their frustration on each other on the street
- delay of marriage due to finanical problems
- lack of respect to the privacy of others
- having fun and passing the time (its bizarre i know)
- no other way to approach a woman

now this last one really struck a chord with me. i mean seriously if in the west a guy sees a woman he likes what will he do? hell aproach her, say hi, my name is so and so, whats your name? would you like to go for some coffee? and the woman will say yes or not. but this scenario doesnt happen in egypt, its simply not allowed, and thus many men find the only way to approach a woman is through catcalling and whisteling!

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completely right

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Originally posted by Kamal211:
I knew most will misunderstand my point.
The west is to blame for the widespread corruptive behaviour and morals.
The muslim are to blame for adopting and allowing it infiltrate to their society.

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I think Egypt is 5 times more corrupt than most western countries, namely because it's a poor country, people are underpaid, and more likely to involve in underhanded ways of getting their needs met.

Belly dancing is a very sexual dance, which has it's roots in Egypt, not in the west.

It's a very hypocritical society that hides behind Islam, while undercover engaged in all sorts of immoral behavior, "when no one is looking."

Women have pressure to stay virgins, and that means "no sex", it doesn't mean engage in anal sex, oral sex, and getting discrete operations in the event your hymen is broken, to fool some unsuspecting man as if you've been chaste all along. This society promotes hypocrisy.

Many Egyptian women will teach their 4 year old daughters how to belly dance, they don't need to watch Britney Spears in order to learn shake their bums.

7aya who are you kidding, western women get offended by the cat calling and hissing, but Egyptian women have come to expect it. Talk about how they walk off to write down their phone numbers, and come back and hand it one of the boys in some discrete way.

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Originally posted by akshar:
As a Westerner I found I was treated very differently because my marriage ended in death rather than divorce. The moment I told people my husband was dead they seemed immediately to change attitude and treat me with respect.

Even though I have remarried I still find local people seem to respect me more because I was a widow before hand.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kamal211:
especially as a lady you dont need to make every step outside your house as a catwalk, or be a model, or even an object for men, as you would in some western. You can be yourself, you can be a women, a first class one too!

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Kamal, did you bother to read and comprehend what has been written here by various ladies???

It's exactly the other way around. In the West I leave the house without thinking about how I look, who might look at me, what people might think of me etc pp. because it doesn't matter. People treat me as a human being, no matter what I'm wearing or what I look like.

How often do you hear parents saying nowadays, “O, I can’t do that, he/she won’t let me.” And they are referring to their child who is anything from a few months old! Parental discipline isn’t what it used to be and children are encouraged to be more independent and expressive of their feelings. Maybe it isn’t happening here in Egypt as much as in the West, but it is happening here too, I have seen teenagers here speaking to their parents in ways that shocked me and their parents just shrugged their shoulders.

quote:

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Originally posted by newcomer:
I agree that the level of harassment in the West isn’t the same as it is here, but how many western women complain that men are “only out for one thing.” Is that just another way of expressing the same lack of respect?

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I do agree with that in many respects. There's disrespect/harassment everywhere, just in different forms. I grew up in a Western culture and I know how to handle men who are disrespectful to me here, although it generally is in a more personal, one-on-one setting. Not so much *street* harassment as what people are describing.

Here (US), men are generally more likely to say something rude at work, alone in an office, or in an elevator alone with you, or something like that. I know how to deal with that. I don't know how to deal with men harassing me on the street other than to ignore them.

But my mother always said, "you teach people how to treat you." Meaning, if you put up with bad behavior, it will continue. If you demand respect, you'll get it.

That works for me most of the time.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kamal211:
Leila try to understand when your in such countries, especially as a lady you dont need to make every step outside your house as a catwalk, or be a model, or even an object for men, as you would in some western. You can be yourself, you can be a women, a first class one too!

As I keep on saying take away those American Hollywood movie, where else do they learn all this *hissing* and *hooting*, and doing a *drive-by*.

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As Dalia said - the problem is that we are unwillingly an object for men in many arabic countries including Egypt. I haven't ever walk out of my house trying to be a model -as you put it- or to draw attention to myself and yet I would never get as harassed here as I do in Egypt (and i know Islam is certainly not to blame for this)

I’m sorry but Egypt is not the Islamic utopia you seem to think it is corrupted by the evil west. There are good and bad everywhere. It’s always easier to point the blame somewhere else than to have an honest long hard look at ourselves.

quote:

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Originally posted by newcomer:
I know I am coming late into this but the recurring word throughout this thread is respect, and to me that seems to be the core of the matter. I don’t think that the harassment here is related to either Islam or western influences, but it is part of a general trend that is occurring internationally. Children are not being raised nowadays to respect their elders, parents, or women in the same way that they used to be and the effect is being shown in the way teenagers/young people behave throughout the world.

?

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Following the different points being bought here this is also the conclusion I am coming to. I understand 7aya's points from her research but those points would have been just as valid back in the days when her mother said there was no problem with harassment on the streets. It is not just a problem in Egypt but it seems to come out in Egypt in a different way to other parts of the world. I am also thinking that whilst religion is not a route cause, that sadly many people for whatever reason must be very far away from their god.

Nevamind, I was only trying to point out what Islam teaches, not really defending Egypt or favouring Egypt, but defending Islaam. As it is so sad when people try to blame religion, for many problems around the world - war, women right, etc etc.

As I mentioned earlier, when I mean 'west' or 'evil west' etc etc, i am not reffering to the half of the planet. I am reffering to people/organasation that are trying to delibertly corrupt islamic moral, for example americanised advertising, singers, movies.

In my opinion Americans are the best at marketing, they can sell anything and make it the 'norm' or cool, not only products but its influence, like it OK to hoot and whistle at women, its OK to walk bare in the street...unfortunely its been targeting the Muslim world and its been successful, so Muslim think its OK to do what everybody been discussing here.

I am sorry but I firmly believe it was the 'evil west' that has corrupted Muslim's land to this day, and has blinded them and polluted their mind.

But Islam is a religion to last till the Day of Judgement so unlike Judiasm and Christianity, Islam wont fade away

I think in the next 5 to 10 years, with the current political climate, more muslim will begin to wake up, so i'm sure there will be less *hooting* and less prostitutes behind the veil EnshaAllah

quote:

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Originally posted by RaniaMe:
Kamal, are you a woman
You remind me of these so called Egyptian male friends I used to have, whom I told I was afraid, some days when my mood wasn't great, of going out, because of the harassment. They dared to tell me it didn't exist, that it was only me, maybe, the problem...Please, only women can understand this, so avoid giving us advice, please, please, please.
And you obviously don't know the West, so just try to make things change in your country, with your own efforts, instead of blaming the West for everything...Your behavior is called passiveness...

[This message has been edited by RaniaMe (edited 29 August 2005).]

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I've often wondered how Egyptian women handle the different forms of harassment these women are speaking of. One Egyptian friend of mine said to ignore them and keep walking, another said to loud talk and shame them, and another said not to be loud because it only gets them more excited, don't smile because they think you're flirting, etc.

Of course dealing with culture shocks is difficult, as other women have said, sometimes you lock yourself in your home for days at a time because you just don't feel like dealing with it. And I know this isn't healthy if we're to ever learn to adjust to living here.

Besides covering from head to toe, which many of us do, how do you suggest dealing with these forms of harassment. I see many Egyptian women walking alone, while western women feel they can barely go in public without their husbands. Some of us would like to be more independant like we're used to, and not feel that we have to always walk in a man's shadow.

quote:

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Originally posted by Habiba1:
Thank you for sharing the many cultural aspects of your society with us 7aya, I'm always enlightened by them.

I've often wondered how Egyptian women handle the different forms of harassment these women are speaking of. One Egyptian friend of mine said to ignore them and keep walking, another said to loud talk and shame them, and another said not to be loud because it only gets them more excited, don't smile because they think you're flirting, etc.

Of course dealing with culture shocks is difficult, as other women have said, sometimes you lock yourself in your home for days at a time because you just don't feel like dealing with it. And I know this isn't healthy if we're to ever learn to adjust to living here.

Besides covering from head to toe, which many of us do, how do you suggest dealing with these forms of harassment. I see many Egyptian women walking alone, while western women feel they can barely go in public without their husbands. Some of us would like to be more independant like we're used to, and not feel that we have to always walk in a man's shadow.

The ones the live in the states are correct, men usually approach you one on one, even if you know deep down, they only have one thing on their minds. The problem here, given the fact that Egyptian men naturally love to hang in large groups, makes the harassment more humiliating. It wouldn't even bother me much if one guy hissed, than 5 of them hissing, or the one clown out of the group always trying to impress the others. I don't even like passing the hookah cafes on every corner, and try to walk across the street, before I get near them, but sometimes it's hard to avoid, because as you know, they are on every corner just about.

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you know habiba whenever i complain from harrasment i'm told to just "ignore it," and to "pretend that i'm not looking." and i've watched many other women get harrased and usually this is their reaction; they just stare straight ahead and pass by as quickly as possible.
however, in my opinion i always thought that this is a very passive reaction, one that might encourage them to harrass even more. infact, i felt that if every woman turns around and makes a scene it might scare them especially since in egypt alot of people would gather and there's always a chance that the guy(s) might get beaten up.
personally at some point i got so frustrated, i decided that i will scream at anyone who harrases me. and i did go on with my plan! every time someone harrasmes me i would turn around and say hey are you talking to me (hehe robert de niro style), or why don't you mind your own business? and if im in a really lousy mood i might swear. i tried this for about a month or so, and i used to get very different reacions. most of the time the men were surprised that i answered back, because they assumed i like other women would just walk by. and i really liked the look of shock on their faces. however, they would just say, i wasn't talking to you, and given the fact that the street is filled with women, its difficult to prove that they are! other men, however, would find my approach a chance to start talking to me, and start harrasing me even more in an attempt to get me more angry.
but in all honesty, after trying this for a while i started really suffering. i realised that if i turn around and face every harraser, ill spend my entire day in the street! and who has the time and mood for that! its really very frustrating, and yes i too feel like not going out on some days. although i usually get over this mood quickly, because i believe that this is my country too and i have a right to walk in the street just as they do!

quote:

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Originally posted by Dalia:
[QUOTE]
[b]It's exactly the other way around. In the West I leave the house without thinking about how I look, who might look at me, what people might think of me etc pp. because it doesn't matter. People treat me as a human being, no matter what I'm wearing or what I look like.

[b]B]

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LOL I find myself changing my clothes so many times during the day In Egypt whereas one thing will do for the whole day in the UK. At the end of the day there is always this great pile of clothes to put away.

quote:

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Originally posted by 7aya:
you know habiba whenever i complain from harrasment i'm told to just "ignore it," and to "pretend that i'm not looking." and i've watched many other women get harrased and usually this is their reaction; they just stare straight ahead and pass by as quickly as possible.
however, in my opinion i always thought that this is a very passive reaction, one that might encourage them to harrass even more. infact, i felt that if every woman turns around and makes a scene it might scare them especially since in egypt alot of people would gather and there's always a chance that the guy(s) might get beaten up.
personally at some point i got so frustrated, i decided that i will scream at anyone who harrases me. and i did go on with my plan! every time someone harrasmes me i would turn around and say hey are you talking to me (hehe robert de niro style), or why don't you mind your own business? and if im in a really lousy mood i might swear. i tried this for about a month or so, and i used to get very different reacions. most of the time the men were surprised that i answered back, because they assumed i like other women would just walk by. and i really liked the look of shock on their faces.

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But sometimes I just feel it's very unfair - some idiot feels he has the right to show me his disrespect and I'm supposed to pretend he is not there?!? He is ruining my mood for the next 10 minutes or the rest of the day and I'm supposed to shut up? If I'm not feeling serene enough to ignore them I do swear and get loud and I'm usually satisified with the result - the harrasser gets just as upset as I have been.

Kamal, I'm getting the impression you have no clue what you are talking about. If you don't mind me asking - have you ever travelled to or lived in the "West"? And if yes, where?

quote:

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Originally posted by Dalia:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by 7aya:
[b]
Kamal, I'm getting the impression you have no clue what you are talking about. If you don't mind me asking - have you ever travelled to or lived in the "West"? And if yes, where?

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Hi Dalia,
Dont worry where I am from.
If you dont understand what I'm trying to say dont worry about it

Bye for now.

quote:

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Originally posted by 7aya:
hassancheb as usual your post did not add anything useful to this conversation. as usual you just wanted to sing your usual song, egypt is corrupt, egyptians are immoral blah blah blah.

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Maybe not useful to you, but useful to others reading this thread! Of course you never want to deal with any of the negative aspects of your own society. You always like to feel in control, as if you are the only one that can make generalizations about it.

I don't think I've ever seen you correcting the likes of Kamal when they make negative generaliztions about the west, but then again I don't expect you to. But don't expect me to keep quiet about things I know about Egypt whether you like it or not! As someone else said, its far from an islamic utopia.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kamal211:

I am reffering to people/organasation that are trying to delibertly corrupt islamic moral, for example americanised advertising, singers, movies.

...

I am sorry but I firmly believe it was the 'evil west' that has corrupted Muslim's land to this day, and has blinded them and polluted their mind.

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I won't ever say the West is perfect, but I don't think there is any *deliberate* attempt by Western culture to corrupt Islamic morals. I think the worst you can say about the West is that it is either ignorant about any influence on predominately Muslim countries, or it just doesn't care.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kamal211:

Hi Dalia,
Dont worry where I am from.
If you dont understand what I'm trying to say dont worry about it

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I am not worrying about where you're from and I understand very well what you're trying to say but I'm getting the impression that you are passing judgement without having any first hand experience.

quote:

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Originally posted by newcomer:
I know I am coming late into this but the recurring word throughout this thread is respect, and to me that seems to be the core of the matter. I don’t think that the harassment here is related to either Islam or western influences, but it is part of a general trend that is occurring internationally. Children are not being raised nowadays to respect their elders, parents, or women in the same way that they used to be and the effect is being shown in the way teenagers/young people behave throughout the world.

How often do you hear parents saying nowadays, “O, I can’t do that, he/she won’t let me.” And they are referring to their child who is anything from a few months old! Parental discipline isn’t what it used to be and children are encouraged to be more independent and expressive of their feelings. Maybe it isn’t happening here in Egypt as much as in the West, but it is happening here too, I have seen teenagers here speaking to their parents in ways that shocked me and their parents just shrugged their shoulders.

I think 7aya also made an important point; western men are much freer to approach and develop a relationship with a woman than Egyptian/Arab men are, due to societal norms, which put some limits on their physical behaviour, but they express their lack of respect verbally. I agree that the level of harassment in the West isn’t the same as it is here, but how many western women complain that men are “only out for one thing.” Is that just another way of expressing the same lack of respect?

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I would love to see how the west will behave like if a law preventing man and woman to live together unless they were married is applied there?

quote:

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Originally posted by Snoozin:
I won't ever say the West is perfect, but I don't think there is any *deliberate* attempt by Western culture to corrupt Islamic morals. I think the worst you can say about the West is that it is either ignorant about any influence on predominately Muslim countries, or it just doesn't care.

Neither is good, but to me they are both lesser evils than something [bad] done with deliberation.

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A friend of mine who use to work in Saudi once told me this story:

A women was shopping in a close store, one of the staff [an arab], suggested to the ladt who was fully veiled, that she should buy this top rather than the one she had on her hand, or something like this.

The women left the shop, a few moment later her husband comes in, and starts to give the same staff a good beating, the husband was so furious and was beating him on the shop floor there and then.

What happened was when the staff suggested a top for her, she assumed that he was eyeing her up, and looking at her body shape and so on. This could be a form of harrasement, right?

Why dont you women get your husband/mahram to sort those guys out and teach them a lesson?

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Originally posted by 1mangang:
im in plano and i dont find that at all.

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Originally posted by Kamal211:
Why dont you women get your husband/mahram to sort those guys out and teach them a lesson?

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Originally posted by RaniaMe:
Because we are big enough to solve our problems alone...We're not "flowers", we are strong, want to be respected, and don't want to cry after our husband every time there's something wrong...

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Originally posted by Troubles101:
I would love to see how the west will behave like if a law preventing man and woman to live together unless they were married is applied there?

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Originally posted by Leila:
Yes but trying to conform to western ideas of beauty is not harrassment, it's not just women in the west but men and boys also who feel the pressures of looking a certain way,

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Islam has been on a downhill slide to physical ugliness for a long time now because of the covering up of its women by the men. With women covered up, it becomes hard to select for "pretty" and after a while all grow ugly, men included, because even men get some of their looks from "Mom". Oh boy. They are all in a pretty deep hole, and it will take centuries for them to look beautiful again.

quote:

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Originally posted by kafir4 ever:
Islam has been on a downhill slide to physical ugliness for a long time now because of the covering up of its women by the men. With women covered up, it becomes hard to select for "pretty" and after a while all grow ugly, men included, because even men get some of their looks from "Mom". Oh boy. They are all in a pretty deep hole, and it will take centuries for them to look beautiful again.

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Thats the worst and most stupid comment I have heard in a loooooong while! Even Frienda can argue better then you!!
But at least you made me laugh! hahahahahahaha

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Originally posted by hassancheb:
Maybe not useful to you, but useful to others reading this thread! Of course you never want to deal with any of the negative aspects of your own society. You always like to feel in control, as if you are the only one that can make generalizations about it.

I don't think I've ever seen you correcting the likes of Kamal when they make negative generaliztions about the west, but then again I don't expect you to. But don't expect me to keep quiet about things I know about Egypt whether you like it or not! As someone else said, its far from an islamic utopia.

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they are useless hassan because they are not true, specifically that part about women handing their numbers to harrasers. further, if i did not want to deal with problems in my society why then am i complaining non stop about harrasment on this thread. why am i constantly critcizing the egyptian passivness specifically regarding the elections. why did i join in the discussion that was opened about racism in egypt? you really have no idea what you are talking about
further, i did not agree with kamal. in fact i said that i never get harrased when i travel

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Originally posted by Kamal211:
No doubt Muslim women have more rights and are treated much better [based on pure Sharia, not what you see today, a mixture of laws in Muslim land] than other women from any country/nation in the planet

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Show us an Islamic country where the women are treated good under Sharia Law.
This is how Sharia elevates women: http://www.flickr.com/photos/15609239@N00/26212266/in/photostream/

The West, in a nutshell; pick at the speck in our eye, ignore the 2x4 in their own. Because SOME women in the West look and act like sluts, automatically ALL Western women are this way and ALL women's rights and liberation are bad, evil, and wrong.

In the West people have location based dresscodes. On a beach there's a different dresscode than on a cemetery, and in a bar there's another one than in a church. But the Islamic theocrats don't see their mosques as parts of their societies, to them the whole society appears as one single big mosque. Thus they don't even get the idea that there might be many other dresscodes than just these of the mosque.

Whenever theocrats don't trust people can be the masters of their own instincts and taboos, then the people will never have an opportunity to learn that consensual sex for example, feels better than anonymous sex, and the theocrats will impose the collective taboos of their own fantasy on all the objects in their property. A slaveowner is one of the worst species of predators, and a slave is not used to freedom. In the Islamic societies neither the theocrats nor the people have domesticated their inner animals, and as a result they perceive "objects" even in the cultural references to sexuality that make the West so different from this. If making every individual the master of his own instincts and taboos leaves nothing left of Islam, then it would mean that there never was any religion behind this facade of slavery. Actually, only the experiment can determine whether freedom will make Islam collapse or not.

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Originally posted by Stacia:
7aya--liked your plan. On the other side, what do you do about the women who stare? And why do they stare? I was just in the passport office a few days ago and there was a women there completely covered. She sat down next to me and would not stop staring. She actually turned her body so she could get a better look. I finally said what is wrong? She said nothing and then I said why are you staring??? Ofcourse by this time I was furious and I yelled at her and asked her why didn't her mother ever teach her that it was not polite to stare at people that were different than yourself. And in the end I felt like an idiot and really showed my butt! So what's your take?

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Originally posted by 7aya:
hi stacia, how are you? i'm glad you mentioned this. yes unfortunaly women in egypt stare. see the problem here is that we egyptians are a very curious people. and i remember the first time i traveled abroad, i was really young and my mother told me you know there you can do whatever you want and no one will look at you. heer people are very nosy, they just want to know who you are, where r u from, what are you doing in the passports office, if you have kids etc. its just a terminal case of curiosity, and you face it wherever you are weather you are in the street, office, cafe, restaraunt.
part of it is the weather you know. in cold countries people spend most of their time at home, and thus people turn out to be very individualistic. in mediterinean counties the weather is hot, and people spend time outdoors, and interact. but the problem here in egypt is that it went past interaction to just invasion of privacy.
by the way the fact that you are a foreigner will get you more unwanted attention because you probably look different.
by the way foreign ladies, what do the harrasers tell you, do they speak to you in arabic or english, and do you understand? just curious
sara i don't know how the topic turned from divorce to harrasment! actually i do, its braveheart's comment.
you know i wanted to open a thread on harrasment but now i don't have to, because we already discussed it here. yalla good

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I'm glad you said this. I didn't have any comments directed at me in Cairo, but boy was I stared at! I just took this to mean, and my fiance confirmed, that I was very unusual looking. Very blond hair. Very blue eyes. Very pale skin. I'm a curiosity.

I did the same while I was there. Here in DC, I'd say 60% of the population is black. No big deal. I think I saw just one black man (sub-saharan African) in Cairo, and I'm afraid I stared at him....just because he was different from what I had become accustomed to.

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Originally posted by kafir4 ever:
Show us an Islamic country where the women are treated good under Sharia Law.
This is how Sharia elevates women: http://www.flickr.com/photos/15609239@N00/26212266/in/photostream/

The West, in a nutshell; pick at the speck in our eye, ignore the 2x4 in their own. Because SOME women in the West look and act like sluts, automatically ALL Western women are this way and ALL women's rights and liberation are bad, evil, and wrong.

In the West people have location based dresscodes. On a beach there's a different dresscode than on a cemetery, and in a bar there's another one than in a church. But the Islamic theocrats don't see their mosques as parts of their societies, to them the whole society appears as one single big mosque. Thus they don't even get the idea that there might be many other dresscodes than just these of the mosque.

Whenever theocrats don't trust people can be the masters of their own instincts and taboos, then the people will never have an opportunity to learn that consensual sex for example, feels better than anonymous sex, and the theocrats will impose the collective taboos of their own fantasy on all the objects in their property. A slaveowner is one of the worst species of predators, and a slave is not used to freedom. In the Islamic societies neither the theocrats nor the people have domesticated their inner animals, and as a result they perceive "objects" even in the cultural references to sexuality that make the West so different from this. If making every individual the master of his own instincts and taboos leaves nothing left of Islam, then it would mean that there never was any religion behind this facade of slavery. Actually, only the experiment can determine whether freedom will make Islam collapse or not.

[This message has been edited by kafir4 ever (edited 29 August 2005).]

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Originally posted by Troubles101:

You still like to argue with yourself...Chillax man !

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Originally posted by 7aya:
thats true, he likes to have one on one discussions with himself. i've tried debating racist4ever on another thread but he didn't reply. he got sacred you know

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Originally posted by 7aya:
thats true, he likes to have one on one discussions with himself. i've tried debating racist4ever on another thread but he didn't reply. he got sacred you know

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