quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: A friend of mine from Germany once said "I know why Americans run the world, its because they work so hard." Many Euros and other misjudge us...Americans are highly competitive, our women as well, they are smart and they can be downright vicious at times. because of our frontier heritage many simply do not like government nor do they believe in it. They want as little as possible. HL Brands said in his book, 'The death of liberalism in America' that Americans will put up with government only in a time of crisis. The US is far from being Europe west. That said, everyone I know likes Europeans, especially the British.
Interesting
[This message has been edited by katrina (edited 24 August 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by kimo_the_maniac: That's a very one sided view of capitalism. You may be able to drive through posh homes for miles on miles but my relatives in the states also tell me that you can drive through miles upon miles of abject poverty reminiscent of the third world. Not to mention a health care system willing to let people slip and a deteriorating public education system. I know the US is still doing much better than most of the world but if you look at European socialism, e.g. in Scandanavia you might be able to figure out where the left can create a lot of wealth while not letting anyone slip through.
I am a leftist, but I am not advocating socialism or capitalism here, I know different approaches work well in different countries. I am just shocked that you would represent American capitalism from such a selective point of view.
Anyway why are Americans so scared by socialism? In my experience a lot of people (not only Americans) tend to mix up democracy and capitalism as well as autocracy and socialism. Taiwan has been capitalist for a very long time but it only recently stopped being a ferocious autocracy, ditto South Korea. Many governments in Europe today are socialist and no one can deny they are very very very democratic.
One more thing, if you think that American wealth was created solely by enterpreunership and hardwork, then think again. A lot of countries have very hard working people but are still very poor. Capitalism and economic "reforms" have almost obliterated the middle class from many third world countries (Egypt included). America is wealthy because it has immense natural resources. Not only within its borders, because (let's face it) America is an empire. If America wants a certain resource at a certain price it will get it and nobody can stand up to her (not on anything strategic). I don't think there is anything wrong with that either, wish we were as strong as you are.
Americans are not afraid of socialism here. They simply do not need it here. America is not Sweeden, and America is not Europe. America is America. Americans do not believe socialism really fits with their culture. Socialism is not up to American cultural norms and history.
I personally and many believe here in the convexity of the curve for distribution of talent and associated rewards. There is no incentive to have an extraordinary performance where individual merit is taxed to support somebody else who does not care to take matters in his/her own hands. Sweedish themselves say that many do not become big time somebody unless they feel a "call " for it. Otherwise, there is no incentive to to outperform the average. There are clear incentives for this in the US. And yes we do like to compete. Not all, but many.
US labor is very flexible and highly mobile in contrast to that of Europe, with much lower and shorter in duration welfare. This allows US to perform better than Europen (Or at least it is one of the plausible explanations you would read in economic papers written by PhDs in Labor Economics) as well as of its enterprenuirship culture. A lot of world best talent comes to USA from all over the world, and yes USA is good at creating good incentives for the "brain-drain". It is not just about natural resources, America has tremendous high quality human capital. it is not just working hard but it is about working hard but smart.
American higher education system is not deteriorated. High school education desires to be better, but it is the family that should put emphasis on it, and change will come. Healthcare is not deteriorated here at all. Perhaps the cost is prohibitive, but the quality provdies world best care, yet government does help the poor through Medicare and MedicAid.
It is also correct that majority of Americans are proud that they can do it on their own, and do not appreciate government handouts, it is above pride here, but reliance on oneself and responsibility for yourself is engraved in the mentality. And thus, high belief in one's efforts, chance as opposed to "destiny", creating opportunities instead passive waiting for something to happen, and accountability to oneself other than blaming govt, circumstances, other people, life, etc.
Yet, I do agree that more can be done for the working poor, but I do not believe successful people need to be taxed to death to help the lazy. There is a normal distribution for talent. There is a normal distribution for hard work. Lazy should pay their own price. It is fair. However, it is rational to help even those lazy as to prevent and eliminate potential social ills, such as crime, poverty, etc etc etc that could be an outcome of not paying attention to the disadvantaged population.
[This message has been edited by katrina (edited 24 August 2004).]
posted
Bravo Katrina. That was very well said. I see we've just turned you into the epitome of the "capitalist pig", haven't we?? Posts: 310 | From: Maryland, USA | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Carleen: Bravo Katrina. That was very well said. I see we've just turned you into the epitome of the "capitalist pig", haven't we??
Carleen, yeah, I knew you would like it
I am very pro-market and I believe the government should leave the market alone for the invisible hand of Adam Smith to perform miracles and make order out of chaos.
Government can intervene with environmental/legal regulations, etc etc etc.
Yet, politically....well, F9/11 shows that well...Unfortunately, it is what any super power does historically, while America can do so much good. Maybe there is hope if Americans get rid of GWB.
I do believe in economic American dream. This belief did not change.
[This message has been edited by katrina (edited 24 August 2004).]
posted
Katrina, I agree that what works for America works for America, just as what works for China works for China. No two countries will tick using the same system. I was only wondering why America has no visible left, you explained it well, I guess there are dogmatic, historical, and cultural reasons for this right wing tilt. Doesn't mean I like it though, after all it's this culture that gave us the American pro-Israel policy and Falwell (Saudi right wing capitalism gave us OBL)!
Your explanation of why capitalism works is a fine textbook worthy one, I'll just dig up my GCSE economics book to concoct something about socialism, that was my last contact with economics, no Phd here
But again your explanation is almost patriotic (America must be a very nice country to impact you so). I hear the reality is a bit different. You can make it in America if you are: Talented and hardworking, white, Judaeo-Christian, and conform to certain political views. I know there are exceptions to this so save it.
Moreover, an outright capitalist system promotes classism and cliques. You seem to be suggesting that those who need government support are necessarily lazy, actually many are not. Many are needy, they are trapped, they work hard but they need a push to make them go up. To suggest that someone like this is being a burden on someone who inherited a big stockholding in a Southeast Asian sweatshop series or a tobacco firm is insulting.
I know it's all complex. And I am not saying the US hasn't got a good system. I am only saying its system is not perfect!
In short, good post Katrina, but extremely imbalanced (unless you have a FOX news "fair and balanced TM" outlook).
quote:Originally posted by kimo_the_maniac: But again your explanation is almost patriotic (America must be a very nice country to impact you so). I hear the reality is a bit different. You can make it in America if you are: Talented and hardworking, white, Judaeo-Christian, and conform to certain political views. I know there are exceptions to this so save it.
Oh no no no, you can't get away with THAT one. That is SOOO wrong it's laughable!! The opposite couldn't be more true, and it's true often enough that in no way, shape or form is it an exception - it's the RULE!!!
I mean, wow, I don't even know how to explain exactly how wrong you are, if your perception is that far off... Do you realize that 67% of Americans, of ALL races, religions, political affiliations, blah blah blah, own their own homes?? I live in Prince Georges County, Maryland, just outside of the District of Columbia, which has a majority African-American population. My county is one of the wealthiest counties in the COUNTRY, with a median household income of $75,000/year - BLACK FOLKS!! One of the ladies who CLEANS MY HOUSE (and I really don't mean to sound condescending) immigrated to this country from El Salvador only 3 years ago, speaking NO English, working for someone's maid service. In a year, she & her sister opened their OWN business, bought their OWN homes, and she is about to complete a university degree in nursing, a very WELL-PAID profession!
Oh my goodness Kimo, you haven't a clue...
[This message has been edited by Carleen (edited 25 August 2004).]
Posts: 310 | From: Maryland, USA | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by kimo_the_maniac: In short, good post Katrina, but extremely imbalanced (unless you have a FOX news "fair and balanced TM" outlook).
How on earth can you say that if you've never even visited this country??? What Katrina said is DEAD-ON: I've LIVED it, my family has LIVED it, my friends have LIVED it.
I was born in what is affectionately call "the 'hood", but through SACRIFICE my family was able to send me to an exclusive private school (that in my mother's youth, before the Civil Rights Act, she wouldn't have even been ABLE to attend), that gave me the education to get a fully-paid scholarship to college, that gave me the education to enter & EXCEL in a very lucrative profession (which, BTW, has a disproportionate number of Indian and Asian workers who are typically Hindu or atheist - another glaring inaccuracy in your statement). I now make more than my parents, and most couples in my family, COMBINED, and if that's not the American Dream, I don't know what is!
[This message has been edited by Carleen (edited 25 August 2004).]
Posts: 310 | From: Maryland, USA | Registered: May 2004
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Well Carleen I am glad it worked for you. I didn't say it's not a good system (for the last time), I just said it wasn't flawless. I know some stories where it turned into a nightmare, and before you ask, no I haven't lived through them myself, I heard them from very good sources. So for every Latin cleaning lady that made it there is at least one that got a very bad deal. But in any case all my family members who have been to the states have had almost no hard time. All my immediate family has been there and they came back writing poems about America, but then that was pre 9/11.
And I can for sure say that Katrina's post is imbalanced because nothing is ever that positive and cheerfull. There are always problems, and major ones, anywhere and about anything. If you fail to mention the problems, well then you aren't fair. It's that simple. I didn't say it was a bad post though. Your response is something I've come to expect of Americans: Very patriotic and very defensive. It's almost worse than Egyptians, you guys are incapable of discussing your problems (at least with us, why? Are we the enemy or something ). But maybe it's not that. Maybe Americans just like to be positive. Like concentrate on the good things and ignore the bad sides. That's admirable but I wonder why you are always focused on the negatives as far as the rest of the world is concerned.
Have the sanctions been lifted yet Carleen? So what's so irritating about the Semitic God of war? Seriously!
quote:Originally posted by kimo_the_maniac: Katrina, I agree that what works for America works for America, just as what works for China works for China. No two countries will tick using the same system. I was only wondering why America has no visible left, you explained it well, I guess there are dogmatic, historical, and cultural reasons for this right wing tilt. Doesn't mean I like it though, after all it's this culture that gave us the American pro-Israel policy and Falwell (Saudi right wing capitalism gave us OBL)!
Your explanation of why capitalism works is a fine textbook worthy one, I'll just dig up my GCSE economics book to concoct something about socialism, that was my last contact with economics, no Phd here
But again your explanation is almost patriotic (America must be a very nice country to impact you so). I hear the reality is a bit different. You can make it in America if you are: Talented and hardworking, white, Judaeo-Christian, and conform to certain political views. I know there are exceptions to this so save it.
Moreover, an outright capitalist system promotes classism and cliques. You seem to be suggesting that those who need government support are necessarily lazy, actually many are not. Many are needy, they are trapped, they work hard but they need a push to make them go up. To suggest that someone like this is being a burden on someone who inherited a big stockholding in a Southeast Asian sweatshop series or a tobacco firm is insulting.
I know it's all complex. And I am not saying the US hasn't got a good system. I am only saying its system is not perfect!
In short, good post Katrina, but extremely imbalanced (unless you have a FOX news "fair and balanced TM" outlook).
No I did not sy all who need help are lazy. I said I do not believe enough is done for the working poor, but I believe helping the lazy is still necessary although not fair. Yet, still incentives for an individual merit should not be lost in this process.
I lived under communism or pseudo-socialism in Soviet Union. Perhaps Sweeden was able to integrate both capitalism and socialistic ideas, yet human race on average is still driven by self-interest. Communism was a disaster. Capitalism is not perfect, either, but at least it has proved to be working so far.
This subject is very complex as you said. You can not address all angles in one post. It is impossible.
P.S. Kimo, BTW, I never watch FOX
[This message has been edited by katrina (edited 25 August 2004).]
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Well I saw half of the movie yesterday, and will finish it today.
It was not easy to watch because we were a bunch of assorted people mainly from Arabic countries, and since I spoke the best English I was asked to translate and explain at intervals, after which we were debating on what was just said until it was time to watch a bit more. That's why we did not finish it.
quote:Originally posted by kimo_the_maniac: Have the sanctions been lifted yet Carleen? So what's so irritating about the Semitic God of war? Seriously!
I have NO idea what you're talking about.
Ooooh, do you mean my sanctions against you???
Posts: 310 | From: Maryland, USA | Registered: May 2004
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