posted
I just saw the movie yesterday in the midnight show, I loved the documentary, and was wondering if anyone else have seen it and what they thing of it(only as a documentary) Please
Only respond after you have seen the movie, and regardless of your political affiliation,
My husband and I saw the movie. We thought it was good. There were only a couple of things in there that I had not already read in Time and Newsweek. It is very difficult to talk about the movie and not be political. It is a political movie. We thought it was good in how it showed everything in order. We knew that there were some ties to the Bin Laden's. I don't know if you watch Jon Stewart's The Daily Show on Comedy Central, but most of the things in there have been talked about at one time or another. We didn't know that the Taliban were to Texas and the extent of the ties between the Bush family and the Saudi Royal family. We live next to Flint so the story about the woman whose son went to war struck a note. We have relatives in Flint so we know the area very well. I have a son who will be military age next year so that story really hit me at an emotional level. My husband and I especially were taken aback when they asked the senators on capitol hill if they would sign up their kids to go fight in Iraq and they all just walked away. I was left with the question that if the policy makers who voted for this war won't send their own children, why should I have to send mine for a war I don't believe in? There is no way to talk about this without being political.
posted
I saw the movie in Maadi. I loved it, I love Moore, I can't help it. At times I wondered whether it was a documentary or a comedy, a black comedy because all the things in there are ... real (regardless of the biased outlook)!
I loved the part where he paraded the coalition, the "mother of all coalitions". He has a deadly sense of sarcasm. And then when I was almost weeping at the pictures of Iraqi victims of bombing, there comes Britney with her bubble gum and I couldn't help it
The part which summed it all for me was the last part where Dubya says "Fool me once shame on ... d'oh". I though "**** , if that gets elected again the whole world is gonn'a get it without lube." Please please American voters have mercy.
One note, the cinema was half Egyptian half foreigner (lots of Americans). Everyone laughed at the same things and seemed grim at the same moment. It was actually unifying, although I thought it could have been uncomfortable. With some big exceptions. At one point someone in the film said something like "We are here to free the Iraqis, to give them liberty and democracy, bla bla". We, the gyppos found it hillarious, we laughed our butts off, the Americans didn't laugh. Also a soldier asked "Why do these people hate us, we are here to help them!" and a line of Egyptian girls gave a sarcastic "oooh, poor soul" type sound, the Americans seemed genuinely touched.
posted
I haven't seen Fahrenheit yet, although I absolutely intend to. I'm hardly a right-wing conversative, but Moore is well-known to be a flaming polemicist, so I'd have to regard this movie with a certain amount of suspicion. I hate shoot-from-the-hip radicalism from the right or left.
As for the Egyptian audience's reaction to the movie, according to a recent Washington Post article, that is fairly predictable:
quote:In Cairo's entertainment world these days, it's hard to escape a wave of anti-Americanism. Often, a sure way to fill a theater is to lambaste U.S. foreign policy, cultural habits or military activity. One recent comedy lampooning the United States featured an exploding Statue of Liberty outside the lobby. Another stage production included a randy caricature of an American general and played to packed houses for four months. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17132-2004Aug19.html
Posts: 310 | From: Maryland, USA | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by kimo_the_maniac: [B]I saw the movie in Maadi. I loved it, I love Moore, I can't help it. At times I wondered whether it was a documentary or a comedy, a black comedy because all the things in there are ... real (regardless of the biased outlook)! [B]
me to, the movie for me was a dark comedy, with all the tragedy that was in the movie I couldn’t help myself laughing out loud
quote: Originally posted by Chrisderfer [b] No politics? Ummmmmm okay, then after that exciting discussion, how about we discuss Christianity or Islam without talking about God or Allah Fahrenheit 9/11 would not be a film without politics.[B]
MMmmm,….. well I can disagree with you about discussing Islam and Christianity without talking about GOD, ALLAH, or JAHOVA or any name we call him. But I still have to admit, some politics should be allowed, but within greater restrain because this is a very sensitive subject, and I hate to have started a post that would make my dear friends –the readers and members of this forum- to move the war in our beloved site
As for the Egyptian audience's reaction to the movie, according to a recent Washington Post article, that is fairly predictable:
[/QUOTE]
Well you seem to have missed where I said the Egyptian audience was also very sombre during the 9/11 shots. I know quite a few people who wept for the lady whose son was killed in Iraq.
BTW 911 was also a major hit in Europe, are they also rampantly anti-American?
As for Washinghton post, well they were the same great free media who predicted WMD's would be found on day one and Iraq (pronounce Ayraq) would be a walk through the park. Shows how much you can bet on what they find "predictable".
Watch it Carleen. It's definitely not fair, it is absolutely biased in its presentation but it does it so well. I just love bias when it's left wing.
P.S. If you think this film is pro-Arab or anything (thus the reception in Egypt), think again. Saudi Arabia took a very good beating, it was interesting to see how people received that. Seems Egyptians truly are NOT in love with the Saudi government.
quote:Originally posted by kimo_the_maniac: Well you seem to have missed where I said the Egyptian audience was also very sombre during the 9/11 shots. I know quite a few people who wept for the lady whose son was killed in Iraq.
BTW 911 was also a major hit in Europe, are they also rampantly anti-American?
At the moment, aren't most countries?? But I never once implied that liking the movie was anti-American. It's a hit here, too!
quote:As for Washinghton post, well they were the same great free media who predicted WMD's would be found on day one and Iraq (pronounce Ayraq) would be a walk through the park. Shows how much you can bet on what they find "predictable".
And they and a lot of other media have admitted they were wrong. We are capable of doing that, believe it or not.
quote:Watch it Carleen. It's definitely not fair, it is absolutely biased in its presentation but it does it so well. I just love bias when it's left wing.
As I said, I intend to.
quote:P.S. If you think this film is pro-Arab or anything (thus the reception in Egypt), think again. Saudi Arabia took a very good beating, it was interesting to see how people received that. Seems Egyptians truly are NOT in love with the Saudi government.
While I never said it was pro-Arab (how would I know if I've not seen it yet??), it wouldn't bother me if it was.
[This message has been edited by Carleen (edited 21 August 2004).]
Posts: 310 | From: Maryland, USA | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by welsafty: [b]Only respond after you have seen the movie, and regardless of your political affiliation,
NO POLITICS PLEASE[/B]
Would you rather we discuss Egyptian Sluts versus Western Sluts or may be how Egyptian women are so Arrogant and Demanding.
quote:Originally posted by welsafty: and I hate to have started a post that would make my dear friends –the readers and members of this forum- to move the war in our beloved site
This exactly is the problem with you and Egyptian women,you're too faggoty for their liking...they see right through you. One advice, don't underestimate "Western Sluts", they'll see coming miles away.
Posts: 343 | From: Magnoon Land | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by kimo_the_maniac: At one point someone in the film said something like "We are here to free the Iraqis, to give them liberty and democracy, bla bla". We, the gyppos found it hillarious, we laughed our butts off, the Americans didn't laugh. Also a soldier asked "Why do these people hate us, we are here to help them!" and a line of Egyptian girls gave a sarcastic "oooh, poor soul" type sound, the Americans seemed genuinely touched.
And there in lies the problem.Many Americans,Westeners and unfortunately some Egyptians to this day believe that the US is in Iraq to free them and restore democracy.
To this day many..many Americans believe the Iraqi deaths are a small Price to pay for freedom brought by the US.
Large number of Americans and others continue to Parrot the lies told by the US Government.The US vice president continues to assert a connection between Iraq and 9/11
Iraqis were dying before 9/11 on the hands of Americans and continue to die to this day.
Posts: 343 | From: Magnoon Land | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by elmagnoon: To this day many..many Americans believe the Iraqi deaths are a small [b]Price to pay for freedom brought by the US.[/B]
But if you believe the polls, those folks are becoming a smaller & smaller minority. Most of us are sick of this.
Posts: 310 | From: Maryland, USA | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Carleen: But if you believe the polls, those folks are becoming a smaller & smaller minority. Most of us are sick of this.
Glad to hear it.....but what are we going to do about it?
Voting Waco out of office is one step forward but it won't end the Iraqi suffering.Bush did not start this US policy of self interest abov all, he's just bad at imlementing it and whoever follows him will undoubtly continues along the same path.
Posts: 343 | From: Magnoon Land | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by elmagnoon: Glad to hear it.....but what are we going to do about it?
Voting Waco out of office is one step forward but it won't end the Iraqi suffering.Bush did not start this US policy of self interest abov all, he's just bad at imlementing it and whoever follows him will undoubtly continues along the same path.
You think?? I think Kerry is kinda sleazy, but he does have a world view that Bush could never possess. Looking at the lesser of two evils, I think the world will be much better off with Kerry as President (Although not as well off as we would have been with Wes Clark. )
As for what we will do about it? I wish I knew. Hundreds of thousands of us protested, but that didn't change the outcome. Aside from pulling a lever in a voting booth to choose between Bad Candidate A & Worse Candidate B, Americans really don't have much to say about what our government does (which I think a lot of non-Americans don't realize).
[This message has been edited by Carleen (edited 21 August 2004).]
Posts: 310 | From: Maryland, USA | Registered: May 2004
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posted
And Mags, can I ask you an OT question? How is that some of your posts are perfectly reasoned, thoughtful, and interesting, but then others are... well... you know! What gives?? Like, what provokes this alter-ego you seem to have?? Posts: 310 | From: Maryland, USA | Registered: May 2004
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posted
Saw the movie here in San Diego with my Egyptian husband and WOA Bush looked so ridiculous it was embarrassing to me to have him as president! I really enjoyed every bit of info and sarcasm Moore adds to his documentaries, also better than Bowling for Columbine. As well as many others there were lots of laughter and definitely tears on my behalf by all the suffering these people are experiencing AND have endured. It is hard though not to be inclined to have a political opinion regarding this documentary unless you judge it by the humanitarian aspect of it (which is?). I believe in supporting my country and its troops but definitely cannot do it this time even though my brother is overseas serving our country and will be for over a year.
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Posts: 62 | From: San Diego, Ca USA | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Carleen: Aside from pulling a lever in a voting booth to choose between Bad Candidate A & Worse Candidate B, Americans really don't have much to say about what our government does (which I think a lot of non-Americans don't realize).
[This message has been edited by Carleen (edited 21 August 2004).]
Maybe it's because a lot of them believe in this democracy and accountability crap. I was really amazed at how Bush (but even more Blair) got away with it. Makes you wonder if any country is ever totally democratic.
quote:Originally posted by Carleen: Breaking my rule about addressing you... [This message has been edited by Carleen (edited 21 August 2004).]
I haven't figured out what ticked you off in the first place. Anyway, break the sanctions or keep them at your own leisure
Anyway you did not only imply, you stated that it was a hit in Egypt because it is anti-American. But it doesn't bother me much.
And I didn't see any media outlet announce they were wrong. If you have any links please post them because I am interested (this is not a dare I am honestly interested). What I know is that FOX, Bush, and Blair still seem to think Saddam had nukepox bombs that he could deploy out of his ass or something.
quote:Originally posted by Carleen: But if you believe the polls, those folks are becoming a smaller & smaller minority. Most of us are sick of this.
Well so how come Bush still looks like he will very likely win the elections??? This is driving me crazy. His approval rating slips at most a few points in response to such a clusterfuck, and he seems totally unfazed. And everyone seems concerned about how Kerry lacks character!?!? Is it always this weird in the American elections, and is it always this close a call?
quote:Originally posted by kimo_the_maniac: Well so how come Bush still looks like he will very likely win the elections???
PLEAAAAAAASSSSSSE....NOOOOOOOOOOOO!
I saw the film (in the U.S.) and although I don't like to be obviously manipulated by filmakers (whether it's Moore or Speilberg), I think M.M. was straightforward in his approach and what view he wanted to show. There was nothing underhanded about it. ~Talk about this film without talking about politics? Oh, c'mon! I heard from someone else who saw the film here at another showing that at the beginning some of his audience was outraged and yelling "This is propaganda!" etc... walked out. Thankfully, during the screening I attended, everyone seemed fairly united - laughing and crying at similar points. I hope that the film helps to reach enough people to make a positive difference in the U.S. and World future. Perhaps that's too much to hope for, but it's a start. How could a man who had such a limited view of the world ever become President of a major World power? Don't ask me. I didn't vote for him.
quote:Originally posted by kimo_the_maniac: Well so how come Bush still looks like he will very likely win the elections??? This is driving me crazy. His approval rating slips at most a few points in response to such a clusterfuck, and he seems totally unfazed. And everyone seems concerned about how Kerry lacks character!?!? Is it always this weird in the American elections, and is it always this close a call?
What makes you say he's "most likely to win?" Bush & Kerry have been in a near statistical dead heat for months, with a sizable number of "undecided". Those are the folks who are going to decide this election. I wouldn't say he's "most likely to win" at all. Even the loud-mouthed commentators won't hazard a guess.
BUT, the reason he hasn't yet been run out of DC on a rail is because there are still those people who believe, while he may have wrongly invaded Iraq, he's obviously got brass ones. Therefore, they feel safer with a devil-may-care cowboy Republican as President.
Posts: 310 | From: Maryland, USA | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Artemi: I hope that the film helps to reach enough people to make a positive difference in the U.S. and World future.
As far as the US goes, sorry, but that is too much to hope for. What you think of this movie has everything to do with where you *already* are politically. That's my only beef with Moore - his in-your-face, bleeding-heart liberal style makes people on the left stand up & cheer, and people on the right are going to completely ignore him. But people in the center are just going to be afraid of him!
Posts: 310 | From: Maryland, USA | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Carleen: .... Aside from pulling a lever in a voting booth to choose between Bad Candidate A & Worse Candidate B, Americans really don't have much to say about what our government does (which I think a lot of non-Americans don't realize).
Are you aware of how damning of a statement this is? What you’re saying is that the US is a Democratic society only during Elections followed by four years of Dictatorship. Americans owe it to themselves and “their way of life” to restore democracy in the US.The US constitution provides for ways to remove the President. I can’t imagine Clinton’s crimes being far worse than Bush’s. Carleen, tell me honstley, aren't you embarassed of how blatant the US adminstration is in their disrespect for US and international law.Aren't you disgusted at the level of subversion of the authority of the United Nations and the serious assault on the liberties of Americans and the whole world?
"PROVISIONS ON IMPEACHMENT IN THE U.S. CONSTITUTION
Impeachment is the direct constitutional means for removing a President, Vice President or other civil officers of the United States who have acted or threatened acts that are serious offenses against the Constitution, its system of government, or the rule of law, or that are conventional crimes of such a serious nature that they would injure the Presidency if there was no removal."
quote:Originally posted by elmagnoon: Are you aware of how damning of a statement this is? What you’re saying is that the US is a Democratic society only during Elections followed by four years of Dictatorship. Americans owe it to themselves and “their way of life” to restore democracy in the US.The US constitution provides for ways to remove the President. I can’t imagine Clinton’s crimes being far worse than Bush’s. Carleen, tell me honstley, aren't you embarassed of how blatant the US adminstration is in their disrespect for US and international law.Aren't you disgusted at the level of subversion of the authority of the United Nations and the serious assault on the liberties of Americans and the whole world?
[b]"PROVISIONS ON IMPEACHMENT IN THE U.S. CONSTITUTION
Impeachment is the direct constitutional means for removing a President, Vice President or other civil officers of the United States who have acted or threatened acts that are serious offenses against the Constitution, its system of government, or the rule of law, or that are conventional crimes of such a serious nature that they would injure the Presidency if there was no removal."
quote:Originally posted by elmagnoon: What you’re saying is that the US is a Democratic society only during Elections followed by four years of Dictatorship.
No, that's not what I said. I also added that our democratic process works quite well on the state, county, and local levels. But yes, I do believe *most* average Americans can't affect much change at the federal level. That doesn't mean it's a dictatorship though - Big Business has a LOT to do with how the federal government works. So that makes it what, an oligarchy?
Posts: 310 | From: Maryland, USA | Registered: May 2004
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posted
Well let me say first that I am a native born American who first and foremost loves his country. That does not mean that I beleive in all of its policies. We don't have the most perfect system of government but I believe it's the closest that the world has come to allowing the people to determine the course of their own government. This has pros and cons. Many ignorant Americans (and I call them ignorant because as busy as life keeps us its hard to really keep an eye on the reality of the world and the role that American's Gov't plays in it). However, many many Americans, including myself, realize that our military might alone does not make the world a better place. Many Americans feel the George W. Bush has lowered the prestige of our nation in the world's eyes and this includes me. Those in the Arab world who try to make a distinction between the American people and its government are wrong. We, the people elect our leaders, and to a certain degree we are responsible ourselves for those we elect. Having said that, and I say again, many many many Americans feel that Bush is lowering America's standing in the world and I hope that come this November we will elect a new President that can put us back in favor with the world by behaving as a strong but responsible citizen of the world. What does this have to do with Michael Moore's movie. Well, I believe that he is simply holding a mirror up to the face of America and exposing our weaknesses. This is one of the truest forms of patriotism that a citizen can perform for his country. So, here's to a new government in America in the form of John Kerry. And here's to making a serious effort to bringing peace to Westerners and Arabs alike. By the way, has anyone seen the documentary "Control Rool" about a behind the scenes look at Al Jazeera during the Iraq war? I highly recomend it. I saw it with a crowd of Americans here in North Carolina and it was a big hit. Who's seen it and what do you think about it. Of course please comment on Farenheit 9/11 too.
Salaam Permasun
Posts: 9 | From: Raleigh, NC USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:Originally posted by permasun: Many Americans feel the George W. Bush has lowered the prestige of our nation in the world's eyes and this includes me.
Don't you think you're being a little harsh
Posts: 343 | From: Magnoon Land | Registered: May 2004
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posted
quote: -------------------------------------------- Originally posted by permasun: Many Americans feel the George W. Bush has lowered the prestige of our nation in the world's eyes and this includes me.
quote:Originally posted by elmagnoon: Don't you think you're being a little harsh
UM UM...Harsch??? ...prestige???? ...USA always was and always will be Israels pet pig!...So what prestige are you talking about?...Since the incubation of the US it has been nothing but a bloodsucker feeding off other countries."Helping" only if there is something to gain.But I wouldnt worry about the US anymore...the eagles wings have been clipped.Im sorry but you can look forward to a very bleak future.Dont you know the new "America"?...It will be China!...Keep an eye on them for your own good!
posted
I saw the film and as Bowling for Columbine, I think it's great.
First, it is made from a journalistic point of view. It is a work which can be made only by a journalist because it is a very good documentary job.
Secondly, it has a very critical argument (which I really agree with) and it shows only the truth. (The critics are supported by images, documents, journal pages..., so how manipulation is possible??? You can find the dates and data in the journals, and you can find out information about Karzai and the other governants in Afghanistan, or about the relationship between the Bush family and Sadam or the Saudi Royal Family. Everything is written)
Thirdly, I have to say that although I am always against official versions of whatever (September 11, Iraq, the Palestinian conflict), I was very angry after I saw the film because you can see how stupid and ignorant people can be. I mean: how people can believe that September 11 was only an "Islamic attack" on New York (there are many books which tell about other theories), and how people can believe that Bush is not a mentally ill person, or how people cannot understand the pain and suffering of Iraqi people????? And I was also very angry because I (again) realised how disgustings are the majority of politicians...
But I miss some things in the film: what about Guantanamo, the militar base where the US caught all the prisioners took in Afghanistan?? And what about the menace launched by Bush against Iran and Korea (the evil line)??
Congratulations MICHAEL MOORE, you did a great job and I hope that we will follow your attitude in the future!!!
posted
The previous two posts are good examples of why Welsafty wanted to stay away from politics (however naive he may have been ). He knew some people could not rationally discuss this without throwing in a bunch of invective speech that does nothing to promote debate.
Posts: 310 | From: Maryland, USA | Registered: May 2004
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posted
The movie was garbage, pure and simple. Most of it has been discredited by even liberal news outlets here in the States. Even Kerry won't openly endorse it because he knows he can't justify its claims. Only the extreme left wacko fringe in America would support something like this.
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
Carleen, as you probably know, it is impossible to discuss about Farenheit 9/11 without talking about politics. If we are talking about a film which criticizes American Foreign Policy, we cannot ignore talking about politics... What I cannot understand is your insistence about ignoring politics in this forum...it is not unfair to talk about politics if you are in a free society and if you are willing to accept that there are other points of view apart from yours. I can see that it is not the case, so next time I will post my opinion (do you really understand the meaning of the word OPINION???) about cinema I will write only about light, photography, interpretation of the actors. But REMEMBER: Farenheit 9/11 is not a movie: IT IS A DOCUMENTARY!. But do not worry, we can talk only about technical things...
Posts: 182 | From: Madrid, SPAIN | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by noiretblanc: Carleen, as you probably know, it is impossible to discuss about Farenheit 9/11 without talking about politics. If we are talking about a film which criticizes American Foreign Policy, we cannot ignore talking about politics... What I cannot understand is your insistence about ignoring politics in this forum...it is not unfair to talk about politics if you are in a free society and if you are willing to accept that there are other points of view apart from yours. I can see that it is not the case, so next time I will post my opinion (do you really understand the meaning of the word OPINION???) about cinema I will write only about light, photography, interpretation of the actors. But REMEMBER: Farenheit 9/11 is not a movie: IT IS A DOCUMENTARY!. But do not worry, we can talk only about technical things...
Oh child please, I have no problems talking about politics in ANY forum. What the heck do you think I've been doing throughout this thread?? Or did you even bother to READ the thread before you jumped in, going off on your silly tangents that had nothing to do with the topic.
On the contrary, what I have a problem with is words like "ignorant" and "stupid" being passed off as "opinion", or at least intelligent opinion. Oops! I guess that's where I made my mistake. Everyone had been discussing this quite reasonably until YOU came along, and I guess I expected the thread to continue being intelligent. My fault.
Do YOU know what OPINION is?? Clearly not, so it would be MUCH appreciated if you kept your inane rhetoric TO YOURSELF.
[This message has been edited by Carleen (edited 23 August 2004).]
Posts: 310 | From: Maryland, USA | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Carleen: What makes you say he's "most likely to win?" Bush & Kerry have been in a near statistical dead heat for months, with a sizable number of "undecided". Those are the folks who are going to decide this election. I wouldn't say he's "most likely to win" at all. Even the loud-mouthed commentators won't hazard a guess.
BUT, the reason he hasn't yet been run out of DC on a rail is because there are still those people who believe, while he may have wrongly invaded Iraq, he's obviously got brass ones. Therefore, they feel safer with a devil-may-care cowboy Republican as President.
Well, I guess I don't understand US elections very well. It's that electoral college thing that confuses me. Whenever I look at a map showing which states will most likely elect who, I see a big chunk of republican states and I can't help thinking he will win. And now he is president and his brother is still in Florida so I guess he will take as many undecided states as he likes. He did it last time and he only had daddy's buddies to help him, this time around he is the big guy. But then again, I hope he doesn't win, I think America has still not undergone a total transition to a police state (except for the Arab minority), so there is a very good chance for Kerry. I hope!
quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: The movie was garbage, pure and simple. Most of it has been discredited by even liberal news outlets here in the States. Even Kerry won't openly endorse it because he knows he can't justify its claims. Only the extreme left wacko fringe in America would support something like this.
Isn't it weird that the wacko American left fringe is to the right of European centre and Egyptian left!? Why is it that America has no political or social left anyway?
posted
heee hee, when it comes to politics, I have no problem being called naive, as long as we dont lose our friendship over something other dumb presedents have done
quote:Originally posted by Carleen: The previous two posts are good examples of why Welsafty wanted to stay away from politics (however naive he may have been ). He knew some people could not rationally discuss this without throwing in a bunch of invective speech that does nothing to promote debate.
quote:Originally posted by kimo_the_maniac: Isn't it weird that the wacko American left fringe is to the right of European centre and Egyptian left!? Why is it that America has no political or social left anyway?
I dont know, logic suggests that when you ARE the left arm, you have no other left arm ( you only have a right one !!)
hey everyone,,,, remember what calreen said , I am naieve
quote:Originally posted by welsafty: heee hee, when it comes to politics, I have no problem being called naive, as long as we dont lose our friendship over something other dumb presedents have done
No chance of that happening, Wels. I can tell you're one of the good ones. I actually totally love to discuss politics, especially with non-Americans. That's one of my favorite memories of my time in Egypt, all the good conversations I had with Egyptians.
Posts: 310 | From: Maryland, USA | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by kimo_the_maniac: Well, I guess I don't understand US elections very well. It's that electoral college thing that confuses me. Whenever I look at a map showing which states will most likely elect who, I see a big chunk of republican states and I can't help thinking he will win. And now he is president and his brother is still in Florida so I guess he will take as many undecided states as he likes. He did it last time and he only had daddy's buddies to help him, this time around he is the big guy. But then again, I hope he doesn't win, I think America has still not undergone a total transition to a police state (except for the Arab minority), so there is a very good chance for Kerry. I hope!
Don't feel bad - most Americans don't understand the electoral college. It has to be explained to us at every election. But until the last one, it really never made a difference.
That's why I don't think Bush has a lock on another term, because too many apathetic people were burned the last time, and vividly saw how much each & every vote counts. I think we're going to have one of the highest voter turnouts ever this year (although that's not saying much).
Posts: 310 | From: Maryland, USA | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by kimo_the_maniac: Isn't it weird that the wacko American left fringe is to the right of European centre and Egyptian left!? Why is it that America has no political or social left anyway?
Yes, that does seem a bit ironic. But I'm a pretty open-minded person, and I'm not considered at all to be a leftist. I'm much more of a moderate, a la Colin Powell (who, if you recall, always had misgivings about the war, until the French pissed him off).
Posts: 310 | From: Maryland, USA | Registered: May 2004
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I have no idea where the European center is but the US is a conservative country for the most part. You'll find Moore with much more support over there than he has over here.
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: I have no idea where the European center is but the US is a conservative country for the most part. You'll find Moore with much more support over there than he has over here.
Definitely.
Posts: 310 | From: Maryland, USA | Registered: May 2004
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Carleen, I'll try to answer your question. The left has failed in America and it has done so because capiatalism has produced such great wealth here for so many people. You can leave downtown Houston driving west and pass 350K homes for 30 miles...ditto north, and southwest. A friend of mine from Germany once said "I know why Americans run the world, its because they work so hard." Many Euros and other misjudge us...Americans are highly competitive, our women as well, they are smart and they can be downright vicious at times. because of our frontier heritage many simply do not like government nor do they believe in it. They want as little as possible. HL Brands said in his book, 'The death of liberalism in America' that Americans will put up with government only in a time of crisis. The US is far from being Europe west. That said, everyone I know likes Europeans, especially the British. However, the reverse is true of the French, many simply don't respect them and look at France as irrevelant in the modern world.
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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Umm, I'm not sure why you thought I needed that explained to me. I'm an avowed capitalist, as well as an American.
Posts: 310 | From: Maryland, USA | Registered: May 2004
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Originaly posted by Manoesh ____________________________________ UM UM...Harsch??? ...prestige???? ...USA always was and always will be Israels pet pig!...So what prestige are you talking about?...Since the incubation of the US it has been nothing but a bloodsucker feeding off other countries."Helping" only if there is something to gain.But I wouldnt worry about the US anymore...the eagles wings have been clipped.Im sorry but you can look forward to a very bleak future.Dont you know the new "America"?...It will be China!...Keep an eye on them for your own good! ___________________________________ Friend, you are telling me nothing new about China. It is clear that they are an emerging military and economic power who've already beat us back to a truce in the Korean War. That's why the American Gov't treats them with a feather touch. So again. Thanks for your advise but you're telling me nothing new. As for your vitriolic statements about America being Isreal's pig. Well America's former prestige extended not only to the Arab world so don't flatter yourself. It's when we have prestige around the world that we are able to have honest dialoge with countries who can point out to us points of view vis-a-vis the Israli/Palestinian conflict, for example, that we might not have considered. Do you not remember the tireless efforts made by mostly Democratic American Presidents to try to bring a resolution to this conflict. My point is, that with Bush in power, all good thoughful intentions by America's gov't has gone out the window. It just sounds like to me my friend that you are so full of hatred that you can't recognize an American sympathizer to the Arab cause when you seen one. This message is nothing personal. I have great respect and sympathy for Arab causes. More that you will ever know
Posts: 9 | From: Raleigh, NC USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: Carleen, I'll try to answer your question. The left has failed in America and it has done so because capiatalism has produced such great wealth here for so many people. You can leave downtown Houston driving west and pass 350K homes for 30 miles...ditto north, and southwest. A friend of mine from Germany once said "I know why Americans run the world, its because they work so hard." Many Euros and other misjudge us...Americans are highly competitive, our women as well, they are smart and they can be downright vicious at times. because of our frontier heritage many simply do not like government nor do they believe in it. They want as little as possible. HL Brands said in his book, 'The death of liberalism in America' that Americans will put up with government only in a time of crisis. The US is far from being Europe west. That said, everyone I know likes Europeans, especially the British. However, the reverse is true of the French, many simply don't respect them and look at France as irrevelant in the modern world.
That's a very one sided view of capitalism. You may be able to drive through posh homes for miles on miles but my relatives in the states also tell me that you can drive through miles upon miles of abject poverty reminiscent of the third world. Not to mention a health care system willing to let people slip and a deteriorating public education system. I know the US is still doing much better than most of the world but if you look at European socialism, e.g. in Scandanavia you might be able to figure out where the left can create a lot of wealth while not letting anyone slip through.
I am a leftist, but I am not advocating socialism or capitalism here, I know different approaches work well in different countries. I am just shocked that you would represent American capitalism from such a selective point of view.
Anyway why are Americans so scared by socialism? In my experience a lot of people (not only Americans) tend to mix up democracy and capitalism as well as autocracy and socialism. Taiwan has been capitalist for a very long time but it only recently stopped being a ferocious autocracy, ditto South Korea. Many governments in Europe today are socialist and no one can deny they are very very very democratic.
One more thing, if you think that American wealth was created solely by enterpreunership and hardwork, then think again. A lot of countries have very hard working people but are still very poor. Capitalism and economic "reforms" have almost obliterated the middle class from many third world countries (Egypt included). America is wealthy because it has immense natural resources. Not only within its borders, because (let's face it) America is an empire. If America wants a certain resource at a certain price it will get it and nobody can stand up to her (not on anything strategic). I don't think there is anything wrong with that either, wish we were as strong as you are.
quote:Originally posted by kimo_the_maniac: One more thing, if you think that American wealth was created solely by enterpreunership and hardwork, then think again.
Nope, at least I don't. I think America's wealth is due in large part to all that "free labor" she received from my ancestors. That gave our country the jumpstart that put it so far ahead of most others, which gave rise to the power you note was later used to establish economic dominance.
Posts: 310 | From: Maryland, USA | Registered: May 2004
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