quote:

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Originally posted by Egypt_Canada:

God wants to forgive human for a sin they didn't commit (which is Adam eating from the tree). So he get a son and letting him die so he can forgive.

Inherited sin represent injustice.

God need for a reason for forgiveness represent weakness.

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more explanation to MohdAnwar

the first 2 lines is "what the christian belive in Jesus"

second 2 lines is the reason I don't belive in it.

quote:

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About your question of who's first I guess GOD is first because in first book of bible says that he created light and darkness and so on until he created adam and eve. and then after all what happens he created his son, Jesus, and then when he was killed (or lift to the sky according to Islam) he sent the Holy Spirit to be with us (the believers) forever [/B]

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yes i think u are right in the part concern your deeds in life but as u said in islam your deeds in life effect in your life after death our deeds that protect us not anything not anyone and I think it make more sense and more Justice than anyone pay for our bad deeds
but the other part in your post is your explination for the bible i want to give u an example (wa lleah almasal ala3elay).

If anyone in our lifes when invent anything can consider it his son ? lets us say the man who create the Robot can he consider it is his son ??? is that could be ?
that is the different between islam and any other religion we think that god never as anything or as anyone. God is complete so how anything or anyone be like god ???? something god create would be like him ????????? is that make any sense ???????? and u already know that Jesus was a human so how any human can be like god or same as god ?????

and about the holy spirit (Gabrial) as Quran telling us there is an angles that always keep us.

Hello ,Egypt_Canada
I am so sorry i really feel very shame but the problem is my English ( my mother tongue is not English so i am really sorry )

quote:

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Originally posted by annie_81:
"These are the best-selling novels for adults in the United States,
and they have sold more than 60 million copies worldwide."

Jesus and Jihad

New York Times

By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF

If the latest in the "Left Behind" series of evangelical thrillers is
to be believed, Jesus will return to Earth, gather non-Christians to
his left and toss them into everlasting fire:

"Jesus merely raised one hand a few inches and a yawning chasm opened
in the earth, stretching far and wide enough to swallow all of them.
They tumbled in, howling and screeching, but their wailing was soon
quashed and all was silent when the earth closed itself again."

These are the best-selling novels for adults in the United States, and
they have sold more than 60 million copies worldwide. The latest is
"Glorious Appearing," which has Jesus returning to Earth to wipe all
non-Christians from the planet. It's disconcerting to find ethnic
cleansing celebrated as the height of piety.

If a Muslim were to write an Islamic version of "Glorious Appearing"
and publish it in Saudi Arabia, jubilantly describing a massacre of
millions of non-Muslims by God, we would have a fit. We have quite
properly linked the fundamentalist religious tracts of Islam with the
intolerance they nurture, and it's time to remove the motes from our
own eyes.

In "Glorious Appearing," Jesus merely speaks and the bodies of the
enemy are ripped open. Christians have to drive carefully to avoid
"hitting splayed and filleted bodies of men and women and horses."

"The riders not thrown," the novel continues, "leaped from their
horses and tried to control them with the reins, but even as they
struggled, their own flesh dissolved, their eyes melted and their
tongues disintegrated. . . . Seconds later the same plague afflicted
the horses, their flesh and eyes and tongues melting away, leaving
grotesque skeletons standing, before they, too, rattled to the
pavement."

One might have thought that Jesus would be more of an animal lover.

These scenes also raise an eschatological problem: Could devout
fundamentalists really enjoy paradise as their friends, relatives and
neighbors were heaved into hell?

As my Times colleague David Kirkpatrick noted in an article, this
portrayal of a bloody Second Coming reflects a shift in American
portrayals of Jesus, from a gentle Mister Rogers figure to a martial
messiah presiding over a sea of blood. Militant Christianity rises to
confront Militant Islam.

This matters in the real world, in the same way that fundamentalist
Islamic tracts in Saudi Arabia do. Each form of fundamentalism creates
a stark moral division between decent, pious types like oneself - and
infidels headed for hell.

No, I don't think the readers of "Glorious Appearing" will ram planes
into buildings. But we did imprison thousands of Muslims here and
abroad after 9/11, and ordinary Americans joined in the torture of
prisoners at Abu Ghraib in part because of a lack of empathy for the
prisoners. It's harder to feel empathy for such people if we regard
them as infidels and expect Jesus to dissolve their tongues and eyes
any day now.

I had reservations about writing this column because I don't want to
mock anyone's religious beliefs, and millions of Americans think
"Glorious Appearing" describes God's will. Yet ultimately I think it's
a mistake to treat religion as a taboo, either in this country or in
Saudi Arabia.

I often write about religion precisely because faith has a vast impact
on society. Since I've praised the work that evangelicals do in the
third world (Christian aid groups are being particularly helpful in
Sudan, at a time when most of the world has done nothing about the
genocide there), I also feel a responsibility to protest intolerance
at home.

Should we really give intolerance a pass if it is rooted in religious
faith?

Many American Christians once read the Bible to mean that
African-Americans were cursed as descendants of Noah's son Ham, and
were intended by God to be enslaved. In the 19th century, millions of
Americans sincerely accepted this Biblical justification for slavery
as God's word - but surely it would have been wrong to defer to such
racist nonsense simply because speaking out could have been perceived
as denigrating some people's religious faith.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/17/opinion/17KRIS.html?th

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quote:

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Originally posted by foreigngirl:
Well, just because one idiot printed this, doesn't mean that we (Christians) all believe this. I was raised up Catholic, and like Mel Gibson, believe all people if they are good, no matter what their religious background is, well go to Paradise.

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Yes as i think u are right somehow concern people but can i ask u something?
when someone make u a favore u, you say to him thank you and if it is a big favore u may bring him a present .
what about god ? he give u the biggest present u could ever take and everyday god give u a lot of presents

shouldn't we thank god for all of this presents ?

But we have to know god first to thank him not just to be good with people and to be good in all our life

that would make me ask a question to all people who seeing this post

Why you think we are here in life? why god creare us ?

I created man to worship ME

thats what we here for to worship GOD

quote:

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Originally posted by Ayisha:
all books say

I created man to worship ME

thats what we here for to worship GOD

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This Question is for non Muslium :d ? cause i think there is a different view points about this question

1- if anyone of You calls himself/herself a Christian, please, at least try to learn Christian theology. I can see in Your posts a lot of mistakes. For example: the question who was the first.... NO ONE WAS THE FIRST. The God is eternal, He doesn't exist IN TIME, there is no past, present and future for HIM (and saying 'God' I mean The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit). You have a good explanation of this issue in St. Augustin's "Confessiones" (Vth century). Dear Trojca, if You remember the Christian Credo (Confession of faith) - it says "He (Jesus) was BORN before all ages" (before time). Jesus was not CREATED. He was BORN (from God the Father)before the time started to run. We can't even say that if Jesus was born from God the Father then God the Father was first, Jesus next and Holy Spirit the third. These Three Persons are One which means that THEY ARE ALL ETERNAL. The moment when Jesus was born from Mary and appeared on earth wasn't the begining of his existence. He existed long before. So You can't say: first God created Adam and Eve and then He created Jesus. It's NOT A CHRISTIAN FAITH!!! Of course, I understand that my explanation is not full... For example we have a next question: in what way Jesus was born from God the Father? But believe me, all the answers for all the questions You asked in Your posts are in Bible or in the writings of the Fathers of the Church.

2- dear MohdAnwar, yes You're right people should use their brains. And in long history of Christianity there was a lot of people who did this. Take for example St. Thomas Aquinus(XIII c.)- he was a monk who was trying to explain all the christian dogmas and in effect he left a huge book "Summa theologica". Then, there were the Fathers of the Church, many of them as You know were Egyptians (like Origen, St. Athanasius). All these people were using their brains trying to explain the truths of faith and also to explain the 'difficult' things in Bible. So, please, if You feel You don't understand something from the Bible try to look for an answer in their writings. But the other thing is that even if we use our brain we will never understand God. Maybe if that's His will, He will enlighten us and help us to understand something but we will NEVER UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING.

Dear all, what I respect in muslims the most is that they KNOW their faith. They KNOW what their religion says. They realy read Quran and try to understand it. Dear Christians, take an example from our Brothers in Abraham - try to learn what Your religion says, what are the truths of Your faith.

I have so many things to say.... and no time to do this. But if I could answer any question my email is: aslan2.uj@interia.pl or tesla20@interia.pl.

P.S. Happy Ramadan!

quote:

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Originally posted by MohdAnwar:

This Question is for non Muslium :d ? cause i think there is a different view points about this question

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ooops sorry MohdAnwar, I knew the answer and jumped in

"(1)In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (2)He was with God in the beginning.
(3)Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. (4)In him was life, and that life was the light of men."

This is of course the beggining of John's Gospel. "Word" (Logos) is Jesus Christ. So what do we learn from that? That Jesus was in the beggining of all!

quote:

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Originally posted by aslan:
Hello!
I've read some of the posts in this topic and I'd like to say something:

1- if anyone of You calls himself/herself a Christian, please, at least try to learn Christian theology. I can see in Your posts a lot of mistakes. For example: the question .............

(edited 24 October 2004).]

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first thank for your greeting for Ramadan

1- I was knowing what u telling about Jesus before from my discusion with Christians but (WE STILL IN SAME LOOP EVEN U ASKED THE FATHER IN CHURCH HE WOULD TELL U HAVE TO ACCPET IT AS IT IS AND U HAVE TO REPENT) Or (At his best case he will give u a lot of philosophy which would make u think u are stupid and will accept it as it is at last cause u can't understand cause the problem is in you not in the bible ).

2-With a simple mathmatic operation (what is the lowest postive number ) the answer is one.
we all know that everything create by someone who tell u they are three and if u can give me an evidence for that (Not from your Bible) i would thank you cause the logic telling us there is someone and the lowest as i said it is one Only One.

3-i want to check something u said we are brother in Ibrahim u mean Ibrahim or Noah ?????

4-u said in your last post
("(1)In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (2)He was with God in the beginning.)

which make me feel i am stuipd and same for most of christians they not understand anything and I think u too just a lot philosophy give no sense in contrary in Quran u will understand most of things if u learn arabic langauge .

(THE BEST THING THAT MAKE PPL FEEL U ARE WISE MAN IS TO GIVE THEM A LOT OF SENTENCES THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND AND THEY WILL THINK U ARE WISE MAN AND THINK IN THEMSELF ARE JUST IDITO)

5- Can u Puplish a new post explain Solimon songs to make me learn about it cause all what i know about it not good for a holy book (YOUR BIBLE).

6-An advise for u cause it seems u have a good brain see this link www.sultan.org
u will find a lot of things about Bible and Quran may be God lighten your way

thanks again for your greeting for Ramadan

[This message has been edited by MohdAnwar (edited 25 October 2004).]

quote:

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Originally posted by aslan:

Dear all, what I respect in muslims the most is that they KNOW their faith. They KNOW what their religion says. They realy read Quran and try to understand it. Dear Christians, take an example from our Brothers in Abraham - try to learn what Your religion says, what are the truths of Your faith.

I have so many things to say.... and no time to do this. But if I could answer any question my email is: aslan2.uj@interia.pl or tesla20@interia.pl.

P.S. Happy Ramadan!

[This message has been edited by aslan (edited 24 October 2004).][/B]

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For the Above about musliums they know they faith very well. i will tell u an example

try to remmber the next sentence

" mo ddo oo kkeok klkjk kajkjk kkkmm ijijj jhhd "

now try to remmber the next one
"There is a god and i am a human)

the words of ALL prophets are the same in all books, they are all from God, they all tell you WORSHIP ONE GOD

see 1st commandment

quote:

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Originally posted by MohdAnwar:
For the Above about musliums they know they faith very well. i will tell u an example

try to remmber the next sentence

" mo ddo oo kkeok klkjk kajkjk kkkmm ijijj jhhd "

now try to remmber the next one
"There is a god and i am a human)

the psych- told us that the best way to remmber anything. u have to understand it and the thing u can't understand it is hard to remmber that why musliums remmber and know about their faith cause the Quran is clear very clear to understand.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Troubles101:

I agree mostly Muslims take thier religion more seriously than westerners but we sem very similar when it come to Ignorance.You will see many muslims say People in the west are ignorant about Islam but really even in muslim societies thier much ignorance about Islam .You can find many people here who will get mad if you make fun of thier religion but they have little in commin with the religion.

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U mean i make fun with religions ? is that what u mean ?. if i did so i will be blind and ignorance. the example i said is for explination of how u can remmber and how u can't not related to any holy book .
and all what i said that most of Christians don't understand their bible (cause it is very complicated and sometimes not convincing) that why they not stick to it and not do what it tell .
Sorry if u understand that but i will never make fun with god books

1-If You knew all the things about Jesus so why did You asked a question which doesn't have a sense for a Christian? I didn't say "Ask the Father IN THE CHURCH" but "Find the answer in the writings of the FATHERS OF THE CHURCH". This is a huge difference. Fathers OF the Church are (were)theologists and philosophers who were explaining the Christian faith. There were a lot of those wise people during the ages. And believe me they answered ALL the difficult questions You can ask. I don't know how it is with coptic priests (I am a catholic) but each time I asked a question to a priest I always got a very precise answer... There are even Internet pages where You can ask a question and You will get a very precise answer from highly educated person (priest or a monk).If the priest didn't know the answer he told me where I can find it. And I'm very sorry dear MohdAnwar but theology (which is a part of every religion) is a kind of philosophy. You can't discus theological problems without philosophy. You think Islam (and it's theology) is so simple and easy to understand? You know, recently I've been reading Ibn Arabi's "On Love". Do You know it? It's a wonderful text saying about God's love... wonderful but very complicated... Without philosophical thinking You won't understand it.

2- (I'm not sure if I understand a question) If You ask about The Most Holy Trinity - the problem is that people usualy think (as I've seen it in one of the posts) that God the Father, Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit are three forms of God. Big mistake! The main Christian truth of faith (which we learn on the very first lesson of religion)says: "There is ONLY ONE GOD" . So why the three? St Augustine says like this: You - a man - are a ONE person. You ARE (1), You THINK or You KNOW(2) and You HAVE A WILL (You WANT -3). Those three states or powers (being, thinking or knowing, and wanting) are 3 separate things in You (an evidence? Sometimes we WANT something but we KNOW that it is not good for us). BUT YOU ARE STILL ONE. Aren't You? Of course, I gave a short form St Augustine but I don't want to use philosophy too much

3- the Catholic teaching says that the Christians and Muslims (and also the Jews)are "Brothers in Abraham (Ibrahim)" and that's why - as brothers and sisters - we should love and respect each other.

4- About the Word... You are right,the begging of John's Gospel is one of the most difficult (and one of the most beautiful)fragments of the Bible. That's why a lot of Fathers OF the Church (my favourites forever ) put A LOT of effort and knowledge (and philosophical thinking ) in explaining it. If only anyone who feels he doesn't understand it put a LITTLE BIT of effort in reading thier writings... My advice: if You don't understand it put instead "the Word" the name "Jesus" .... "IN THE BEGGINNG WAS JESUS, AND JESUS WAS WITH GOD, AND JESUS WAS GOD" Now You have a basic sens of the fragment. I disagree that Christians feel stupid when they read it... 'm surely a Christian and I don't feel stupid. The Christians read it very often (for example during the Christmas liturgy) and most of them DO understand it. You know, in Poland we even have some church songs based on that fragment.
Dear MohdAnwar, if You understand most of the things in Quran - congratulations! 'Cause honestly I don't. Don't say, MohdAnwar, that Quran is so simple that You don't have to think reading it... We all know it's not true. Anyway, MOST OF the text of the Holy Quran is a text from the Bible but writen in a a bit different words...
Yes, the best way to manipulate the people is to show them how wise You are and to give them answers they don't understand. That's why You have in Bible for example the Apostols' Letters where the Apostols were trying to explain some things to the SIMPLE PEOPLE in Corinthus, in Ephesus and other ancient cities. That's why the Fathers OF the Church ( )created not only philospophical writings but also the preachings where they are explaining the Holy Scripture word by word (for example St John Chrisostomus). Who was listening to these preachings? Philosophers? Oh no! The simple people! And it's still like this (at least in my church) that priests explain the Bible very carefuly so even I can understand it.

5- I'm afraid I don't know what Solomons songs You are talking about Do You mean King David Pslams? Or maybe "The song of Songs" ? In King David's Psalms there is nothing shocking... Maybe "The Song of Songs"... Yes, it's a strange HOLY book because the word "God" doesn't even apear in it's text. But the Christian and the Jews agree (!!!) that this is one of the most beautiful book saying about God's love to His people. If You read the New Testimony You would find out another shocking thing - the Church (the community of people who believe in Christ) is called "God's bride". I think it is the most beautiful metaphore to show how much God loves us. And if You have some "bad" thoughts if You read "the Song of Songs" ... well, I can't do anything about that

6- Yes, I've seen the page (not once, not twice...) because of my private studies on Islamic culture,theology (and philosophy... Yes, yes, also on ISLAMIC PHILOSOPHY). Nothing new... But thank You for Your care! I hope one day we will be all (the Jews, the Christians and the Muslims)enlighten by our One God and He will show us the answer why - why do we belive in the same truth, in the same God in so different ways?

1-You said "The problem is that people usualy think (as I've seen it in one of the posts) that God the Father, Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit are three forms of God. Big mistake"

and

"If you knew all the things about Jesus so why did You asked a question which doesn't have a sense for a Christian?"

Now I don't understand if the Jesus subject for Christians is self-evidence or not ??????
Let me say something
(KNOW GOD AND WHO IS GOD = RELIGION) right?
If you saying most of Christians don't know if God is one or 3 isn't it ??? so they don't know who is god????
REFLECT THE ABOVE SENTENCE IN WHAT I WOTE under it about christians.
Now what is the purpose of Holy books ļ to make u closer to god not to make u miss-understood? Isn't it? I think Quran did that in a very clever way. as I heard from many Christians that they see musliums are pious.

You said " I disagree that Christians feel stupid when they read it... 'm surely a Christian and I don't feel stupid"

They don't feel stupid but they don't understand right ????

2-You said " the Catholic teaching says that the Christians and Muslims (and also the Jews)are "Brothers in Abraham (Ibrahim)" and that's why¡K"

If u believe like that so u believe in Mohamed (PBUH) cause actually we are brother in Noah but if u saying in Ibrahim so u believe in Mohamed (PBUH)??????????

3-about Quran if u learn Arabic and know the history of islam and how it begin u will understand the basics of islam and most of Quran which make u a muslium but just to clarify something Quran miracle is that in each age u can explain quran with its age concept but it is the same meaning for example.
The scientific miracle in Quran. Do u think in the old age they know the modern science to see this miracle like in (moon swra) they saw the moon divided to two parts but now the science prove that it happened since long time ago

4-you said "I'm afraid I don't know what Solomons songs You are talking about "

Yes it is "The song of Songs"
Like that
So 1:13 (A bundle of myrrh is my wellbeloved unto me; he shall lie all night betwixt my breasts.) EBD SBD
So 1:4 (Draw me, we will run after thee: the king hath brought me into his chambers: we will be glad and rejoice in thee, we will remember thy love more than wine: the upright love thee.) EBD NTB TTT
So 1:2 (Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth: for thy love is better than wine).TTT
So 1:3 (Because of the savour of thy good ointments thy name is as ointment poured forth, therefore do the virgins love thee). EBD NTB TTT

And many more same subject

Can u tell me what purpose of it in a holy book to teach people what????????
And that what we saying there is changing in the Bible it is not the real copy

A lot greeting for you (Aslan)

[This message has been edited by MohdAnwar (edited 26 October 2004).]

[This message has been edited by MohdAnwar (edited 26 October 2004).]

1- What is a self-evidence 'cause I don't understand? But there is a one very important thing: from the theological point of view beliving in Jesus Christ is not a thing that differs the Christians from other religions. The thing that differs is beliving in the Most Holy Trinity. When someone believes in Holy Trinity - then he's a Christian.(It is a historical problem - You know, a lot of different sects were created especially in the begginings of Christianity- some of them believed in Jesus but for example they didn't believe in Holy Spirit). It's very important.
ALL CHRISTIANS KNOW VERY WELL THAT THERE IS ONE GOD. As I told You, it is the very first of Christian truths of faith. They know that God is one in Holy Trinity. The problem is - how do they imagine Holy Trinity. It's impossible to say "three forms of God" 'cause this means that there are three Gods, which is of course not true. I was trying to show what is the teaching about this issue given by St Augustine. People have a very different imagination of God. For everyone He is someone different. We are not able to describe Him precisely 'cause He's too perfect for our little brains. And I have to agree with You - there are some Christians who have a false imagination of God and Holy Trinity. Why? I'm a Polish. I guess You know, that for many years Poland was under the comunistic regime. And communists were trying to destroy religion. There was no religious teaching in the schools and in the churches it was VERY, VERY difficult. That's why in Poland there are some people who don't know much about theology (but even if they don't know much they will always tell You - There is ONE God in Holy Trinity). In Russia, Ukraine and some other countries the situation was much more difficult. Many people just couldn't receive religious education. What is the situation in other countries, with other Christians - I can't tell You. I simply don't know. Maybe some people are just lazy and they don't feel like reading thick books - but in this situation it's a matter of their week faith... That's why I wrote my first post: I just hate when some people who call themselves "a Christian" do nothing to learn about their faith. You are completely right, if they don't know they faith - they don't know God.
And as I've said: real Christians DO understand the beggining of John's Gospel (I wrote it in my previous post). They know it, they understand it, they read it, they sing it, they consider it. If You know Christians that don't understand it - ask them if they were trying to look for an explanation anywhere (for example - of course - in Fathers of the Church). There are plenty of comments for John's Gospels...

2- Honestly, it's not a very important thing for me. I can be Your sister in Abraham, I can be Your sister in Noah, I can be Your sister in Moses, or I can be Your sister in Hagar or in Sarah, or in Mary... . Anyway You want! But I'm very happy that You agree with me that we are brothers and sisters. That's the most important 'cause it brings love and respect.

3- so it's the same with Quran and Bible... Every sentence in our Holy Scripture has many meanings that's why people could read it and use it's rules in their lives in IV th century and they can do it in XXIst century.... Sometimes I open any page of Bible, I read any sentence and I think "Wow, it like God was saying about the problems I've been dealing with now. I found the answer"
Scientific miracles... Believe me there are so many them in Bible that there's no time to write about them. For example the conection between the Egyptian darkness (one of the Egyptian plagues) and the erruption of Thera (vulcano)... If someone wants me to describe it, please, write an email to me (the address is in the first post). There is a scientific discipline called "Biblical archeology" which describes such kind of miracles...

4- about "The Song of Songs". Yes, I've said in my previous post - it's a strange Holy Book. Please, read my post one more time and then try to read whole "The Song of Songs"... There are a lot of places in Bible which say about God's love to His people... Take for example St Paul's "Song on love"... And as I've said - if someone reads the book with "bad" thoughts.... I can't do anything about it.... Remember, every sentence has it's meanings - think when You read.

1- What is a self-evidence 'cause I don't understand? But there is a one very important thing: from the theological point of view beliving in Jesus Christ is not a thing that differs the Christians from other religions. The thing that differs is beliving in the Most Holy Trinity. When someone believes in Holy Trinity - then he's a Christian.(It is a historical problem - You know, a lot of different sects were created especially in the begginings of Christianity- some of them believed in Jesus but for example they didn't believe in Holy Spirit). It's very important.
ALL CHRISTIANS KNOW VERY WELL THAT THERE IS ONE GOD. As I told You, it is the very first of Christian truths of faith. They know that God is one in Holy Trinity. The problem is - how do they imagine Holy Trinity. It's impossible to say "three forms of God" 'cause this means that there are three Gods, which is of course not true. I was trying to show what is the teaching about this issue given by St Augustine. People have a very different imagination of God. For everyone He is someone different. We are not able to describe Him precisely 'cause He's too perfect for our little brains. And I have to agree with You - there are some Christians who have a false imagination of God and Holy Trinity. Why? I'm a Polish. I guess You know, that for many years Poland was under the comunistic regime. And communists were trying to destroy religion. There was no religious teaching in the schools and in the churches it was VERY, VERY difficult. That's why in Poland there are some people who don't know much about theology (but even if they don't know much they will always tell You - There is ONE God in Holy Trinity). In Russia, Ukraine and some other countries the situation was much more difficult. Many people just couldn't receive religious education. What is the situation in other countries, with other Christians - I can't tell You. I simply don't know. Maybe some people are just lazy and they don't feel like reading thick books - but in this situation it's a matter of their week faith... That's why I wrote my first post: I just hate when some people who call themselves "a Christian" do nothing to learn about their faith. You are completely right, if they don't know they faith - they don't know God.
And as I've said: real Christians DO understand the beggining of John's Gospel (I wrote it in my previous post). They know it, they understand it, they read it, they sing it, they consider it. If You know Christians that don't understand it - ask them if they were trying to look for an explanation anywhere (for example - of course - in Fathers of the Church). There are plenty of comments for John's Gospels...

2- Honestly, it's not a very important thing for me. I can be Your sister in Abraham, I can be Your sister in Noah, I can be Your sister in Moses, or I can be Your sister in Hagar or in Sarah, or in Mary.... Anyway You want! But I'm very happy that You agree with me that we are brothers and sisters. That's the most important 'cause it brings love and respect.

3- so it's the same with Quran and Bible... Every sentence in our Holy Scripture has many meanings that's why people could read it and use it's rules in their lives in IV th century and they can do it in XXIst century.... Sometimes I open any page of Bible, I read any sentence and I think "Wow, it like God was saying about the problems I've been dealing with now. I found the answer"
Scientific miracles... Believe me there are so many them in Bible that there's no time to write about them. For example the conection between the Egyptian darkness (one of the Egyptian plagues) and the erruption of Thera (vulcano)... If someone wants me to describe it, please, write an email to me (the address is in the first post). There is a scientific discipline called "Biblical archeology" which describes such kind of miracles...

4- about "The Song of Songs". Yes, I've said in my previous post - it's a strange Holy Book. Please, read my post one more time and then try to read whole "The Song of Songs"... Purpose - to show God's love to His people by a metaphore of a bride and a groom. There are a lot of places in Bible which say about God's love to His people... Take for example St Paul's "Song on love"... And as I've said - if someone reads the book with "bad" thoughts.... I can't do anything about it.... Remember, every sentence has it's meanings - think when You read.

Changings in the Bible? You can't imagine how many people as me the same question... I can give You the adress of a person who has orginal hebrew text of the Old Testimony and the greek text of the New Testimony (it was written in greek) The greek text that she has is based on the oldest texts that survived till our times (there are many such ancient texts). Even if we take the latin Wulgata (IVth century) it was also based on ORIGINAL hebrew and greek texts that St Jeremy had. The modern translations are usualy based on Wulgata, Septuaginta, and some other ancient texts. Believe me - there are some differences (mainly because one text survived in a better state than the other) but NO CHANGINGS... Bishops gathered in Trident (in XVIth century) forbid to change even a coma (,) in St Jeremy's Wulgata...

Best greetings!

ļ Just to make easy for everyone that seeing this posts I will discuss each point alone cause it seems we will have a long time with each other. I will name the point now and then I will take one by one and I will arrange it in discussion according to what I see need more clarification :-

1-(The Song of Songs) is it really shows us the god's love or it moves the sexual meaning for the adults and is it safe to make your child see it (and why some parts in bible stop teaching it in schools in South Africa).

2-Jesus scarifying story and how could make increasing the sins in the world

3-The miracles of Quran and in all holy books

4-God and why god is only one and your believes of the three forms u talking about.

5-Bible corruption and why it is corrupted

I will send this post alone then I will begin with the first point in my next post.

let me ask u some questions please first :-

do u think that god will show us his love to us by this sentense.

So 1:13 (A bundle of myrrh is my wellbeloved unto me; he shall lie all night betwixt my breasts.) So 4:5 Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins, which feed among the lilies. So 5:12 His eyes are as the eyes of doves by the rivers of waters, washed with milk, and fitly set. So 5:13 His cheeks are as a bed of spices, as sweet flowers: his lips like lilies, dropping sweet smelling myrrh. So 5:15 His legs are as pillars of marble, set upon sockets of fine gold: his countenance is as Lebanon, excellent as the cedars. So 5:16 His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem. So 7:7 This thy stature is like to a palm tree, and thy breasts to clusters of grapes.So 7:8 I said, I will go up to the palm tree, I will take hold of the boughs thereof: now also thy breasts shall be as clusters of the vine, and the smell of thy nose like apples; So 7:9 And the roof of thy mouth like the best wine for my beloved, that goeth down sweetly, causing the lips of those that are asleep to speak. So 8:8 We have a little sister, and she hath no breasts: what shall we do for our sister in the day when she shall be spoken for?

I doubt u are convinced with that . i know it is your holy book but that make no sense to anyone even u how it show us god's love ???????????????????????????? (YOU CHEATING YOURSELF)

If u like I can bring to u a lot of porno story equal to this story. And also believe me I am really shy while I am discuses things like this with a woman and also believe me while I am reading this story to make an answer I was hopping that my fast still ok cause it is really hot stuff (I swear) .

Believe me if i am Christian i will never let my childs see this part of bible or i will be idiot

Why they stop teaching some parts of the bible in schools in South Africa . I think they know very well what its effect on the childs.

(Stop convincing other with something gives no sense)

quote:

---

Originally posted by MohdAnwar:
1-(The Song of Songs)

let me ask u some questions please first :-

do u think that god will show us his love to us by this sentense.

So 1:13 (A bundle of myrrh is my wellbeloved unto me; he shall lie all night betwixt my breasts.) So 4:5 Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins, which feed among the lilies. So 5:12 His eyes are as the eyes of doves by the rivers of waters, washed with milk, and fitly set. So 5:13 His cheeks are as a bed of spices, as sweet flowers: his lips like lilies, dropping sweet smelling myrrh. So 5:15 His legs are as pillars of marble, set upon sockets of fine gold: his countenance is as Lebanon, excellent as the cedars. So 5:16 His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem. So 7:7 This thy stature is like to a palm tree, and thy breasts to clusters of grapes.So 7:8 I said, I will go up to the palm tree, I will take hold of the boughs thereof: now also thy breasts shall be as clusters of the vine, and the smell of thy nose like apples; So 7:9 And the roof of thy mouth like the best wine for my beloved, that goeth down sweetly, causing the lips of those that are asleep to speak. So 8:8 We have a little sister, and she hath no breasts: what shall we do for our sister in the day when she shall be spoken for?

I doubt u are convinced with that . i know it is your holy book but that make no sense to anyone even u how it show us god's love ???????????????????????????? (YOU CHEATING YOURSELF)

If u like I can bring to u a lot of porno story equal to this story. And also believe me I am really shy while I am discuses things like this with a woman and also believe me while I am reading this story to make an answer I was hopping that my fast still ok cause it is really hot stuff (I swear) .

Believe me if i am Christian i will never let my childs see this part of bible or i will be idiot

Why they stop teaching some parts of the bible in schools in South Africa . I think they know very well what its effect on the childs.

(Stop convincing other with something gives no sense)

---

Assalamu Alaikum Mohd (are you Pakistani or Malysian?)

I don't think that the conflict between Islam and Christianity lies in language. "Vulgarity" is dependent upon the values and acceptable standards of the particular culture in which that literature is produced and to which it primarily addresses. The standard regarding what constitutes vulgarity and what does not in a piece of literature, can vary from one culture to another. Thus, a particular style of speech may be considered quite acceptable in one cultural background, while it may not be considered as such in another.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troubles101:
Assalamu Alaikum Mohd (are you Pakistani or Malysian?)

I don't think that the conflict between Islam and Christianity lies in language. "Vulgarity" is dependent upon the values and acceptable standards of the particular culture in which that literature is produced and to which it primarily addresses. The standard regarding what constitutes vulgarity and what does not in a piece of literature, can vary from one culture to another. Thus, a particular style of speech may be considered quite acceptable in one cultural background, while it may not be considered as such in another.

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Wa Elikom Asalam
First i am Egyptian i would like to know your nationality too
second we are not talking about clutures or countires or langauges we are talking about religions rules which all from one god and suppose to be same for all humanity. i mean all prophet Noah, Ibrahim ,mosa, Jesus ,Mohamed (PBUH all) told us same rules
for example:
The method of relation ship between man and woman in western countires most of it based on Boyfriend and girlfirend so u think if any of this prophets was here he will accept it . it is also a result of culture but that not mean it is right

Purpose of "The Song of the Songs" is not to convince anyone to anything. So no - I'm not cheating myself I repeat one more time - the purpose is to show God's love to his people through A METAPHORE (do You know what is a metaphore?) of bride and groom. And - I'm sorry dear MohdAnwar - but the relationship between bride and groom sometimes is conected with sexuality... I'm sorry if You don't like it.... But anyway I'm sure that for example the words: "His eyes are as the eyes of doves by the rivers of waters, washed with milk, and fitly set. His cheeks are as a bed of spices, as sweet flowers: his lips like lilies, dropping sweet smelling myrrh. " they are realy beautiful. It realy sounds like a love poetry. What is wrong in describing a beauty? Especially if bride describes her groom and groom describes his beautiful bride... What is wrong in this passage? That a word "breasts" appears there? Is this word so bad for You? If yes, You insult all the women around the world...

I don't know why they stopped teaching this book in South Africa (You have to ask a South African who knows a situation )

Troubles101 - I agree.
MohdAnwar, You said:
"The method of relation ship between man and woman in western countires most of it based on Boyfriend and girlfirend so u think if any of this prophets was here he will accept it"
My qustion for You is: was the book written in XXI c. in western culture??? Or in abtiquity (in the times of the prophets) by thier own (Jewish) culture???? Remember MohdAnwar, "The Song of Songs" is a Jewish book - You call it the Song of SOLOMON (the JEWISH king). It was written probably between VII-II century BC. In antiquity people had much different point of view on sexuality... For them it was one of the most natural things in human's life(...'cause it is).

You said:
"If u like I can bring to u a lot of porno story equal to this story."

Don't bother Yourself. My advice for You MohdAnwar is to throw away all the porno stories You read or watch or have. Stop reading or watching them 'cause this makes Your mind impure!!

I've said what I wanted to say about "The Song of Songs". If You want to know more there are wonderful comments by Origen (IIIth century) and many, many more... The issue is closed.

quote:

---

Originally posted by MohdAnwar:
Wa Elikom Asalam
First i am Egyptian i would like to know your nationality too
second we are not talking about clutures or countires or langauges we are talking about religions rules which all from one god and suppose to be same for all humanity. i mean all prophet Noah, Ibrahim ,mosa, Jesus ,Mohamed (PBUH all) told us same rules
for example:
The method of relation ship between man and woman in western countires most of it based on Boyfriend and girlfirend so u think if any of this prophets was here he will accept it . it is also a result of culture but that not mean it is right

[This message has been edited by MohdAnwar (edited 27 October 2004).]

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Assalamu Alaikum Mohd,

I'm an Egyptian Muslim as well. So,since when Modh became an Egyptian name or Mohd is short for Mohammad?. I knew A malysian friend his name was Mohd Elfi that's why I assumed you are not Egyptian

AS for your post. Of course we are talking about language style. Language does evolove with time . Thier are many words which we sometimes claim to be impolite wich was very common during old times and vice versa. this is the same with any language. furthermore what we see here in the passage you quoted is only a translation of the hebrew text and sometimes the translation may add more to what is being said. Take for example when God says in Qur'an in Surah an-naba' verse 33 the word ßæÇÚÈ Arberry,Rodwell and "khan&Hilali" translated the word in a literal way which added more than what was said . they translated it as :

Arberry :Surely for the godfearing awaits a place of security, gardens and vineyards and maidens with swelling breasts, like of age, and a cup overflowing.

Rodwell:But, for the God-fearing is a blissful abode, Enclosed gardens and vineyards; And damsels with swelling breasts, their peers in age, And a full cup

Al-Hilali & Khan :Verily, for the Muttaqûn, there will be a success (Paradise); Gardens and grapeyards; And young full-breasted (mature) maidens of equal age; And a full cup (of wine).

What those translators did is giving a "picture" and explicit physical explanation for the word. Like the word virgin, which in itself is not vulgar but once you start adding its physical explanation it may become not acceptable in a decent book.The word KWAAIB is used for girls in their prime and most attractive ageor girls of a 'ripe' age. This 'age' has generally been defined by the linguists of the Arabic language as that when a girl becomes physically mature and when her breasts are fully developed. Now, obviously, if one were to replace the word used by the Qur'an by its more 'picturesque' explanation, then a person who is not directly aware of the Arabic language, may perceive the verse of the Qur'an as unduly 'explicit'.

quote:

---

Originally posted by aslan:
Hello MohdAnwar!

Purpose of "The Song of the Songs" is not to convince anyone to anything. So no - I'm not cheating myself I repeat one more time - the purpose is to show God's love to his people through A METAPHORE (do You know what is a metaphore?) of bride and groom. And - I'm sorry dear MohdAnwar - but the relationship between bride and groom sometimes is conected with sexuality... I'm sorry if You don't like it.... But anyway I'm sure that for example the words: "His eyes are as the eyes of doves by the rivers of waters, washed with milk, and fitly set. His cheeks are as a bed of spices, as sweet flowers: his lips like lilies, dropping sweet smelling myrrh. " they are realy beautiful. It realy sounds like a love poetry. What is wrong in describing a beauty? Especially if bride describes her groom and groom describes his beautiful bride... What is wrong in this passage? That a word "breasts" appears there? Is this word so bad for You? If yes, You insult all the women around the world...

I don't know why they stopped teaching this book in South Africa (You have to ask a South African who knows a situation )

Troubles101 - I agree.
MohdAnwar, You said:
"The method of relation ship between man and woman in western countires most of it based on Boyfriend and girlfirend so u think if any of this prophets was here he will accept it"
My qustion for You is: was the book written in XXI c. in western culture??? Or in abtiquity (in the times of the prophets) by thier own (Jewish) culture???? Remember MohdAnwar, "The Song of Songs" is a Jewish book - You call it the Song of SOLOMON (the JEWISH king). It was written probably between VII-II century BC. In antiquity people had much different point of view on sexuality... For them it was one of the most natural things in human's life(...'cause it is).

You said:
"If u like I can bring to u a lot of porno story equal to this story."

Don't bother Yourself. My advice for You MohdAnwar is to throw away all the porno stories You read or watch or have. Stop reading or watching them 'cause this makes Your mind impure!!

I've said what I wanted to say about "The Song of Songs". If You want to know more there are wonderful comments by Origen (IIIth century) and many, many more... The issue is closed.

[This message has been edited by aslan (edited 27 October 2004).]

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First i want to thank u for your advise as a sister about porno Story i will not defend myself cause only god who know me and also i do this post for the sake of god so thanks again (YOUR ARE REALLY A GOD CHRISTAIN TO THORUGH PEOPLE U DON'T KNOW SO THANKS AGAIN).

About the Song of Songs - i feel u don't like to puplish it a lot cause u think it is could harm with the reputation of christianity cause not all people know about METAPHORE ..bla bla bla which make no sense for anyone isn't it and that why u closed the issue

You said
"The issue is closed"
I learned to analysis everything and when this word come from a person that means he is nevrvous and i can see that in all your post this time cause i think u also have a problem with (the Song of Songs) so thanks u really answered one of my issued (YOU ARE SHY TO TALK ABOUT IT ALLTHOUGH IT IS AS U SAID PART OF THE BIBLE SO THANKS FOR THE NEW EVIDENCE).
beside i already take (the Song of Songs from another one converted) and he told me what they are saying about it in church. so nothing new

Thanks really for your answers and thanks again that you through me and thanks you give me a new evidence in this part

quote:

---

Originally posted by MohdAnwar:

First i want to thank u for your adivse as a sister about porno Story i will not defend myself cause only god who know me and also i do this post for the sake of god so thanks again (YOUR ARE REALLY A GOD CHRISTAIN TO THORUGH PEOPLE U DON'T KNOW SO THANKS AGAIN).

You said
"The issue is closed"
I learned to analysis everything and when this word come from a person that means he is nevrvous and i can see that in all your post this time cause i think u also have a problem with (the Song of Songs) so thanks u really answered one of my issued (YOU ARE SHY TO TALK ABOUT IT ALLTHOUGH IT IS AS U SAID PART OF THE BIBLE SO THANKS FOR THE NEW EVIDENCE).
beside i already take (the Song of Songs from another one converted) and he told me what they are saying about it in church. so nothing new

Thanks really for your answers and thanks again that you through me and thanks you give me a new evidence in this part

---

Hold your horses Mohd I think you both misunderstood each other. When you said ""If u like I can bring to u a lot of porno story equal to this story." I think Aslan thought ou wre talking about getting her real porno stories as a kind ot telling her that you see no difference ad in return as good person she gave you a sincere advice, but my assumption is that you meant getting her more verses from the bible which are similar to the passages you qouted.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troubles101:
I still think this is onot a major difference between Christianity and Islam . If you guys want to debate yuor religions then you will have looooong way untill you get to the beef.you may even get full before that

---

Wa elkiom Asalam,
Nice to meet u, again that why I told before that Quran can't be translated.
What u said is "khan&Hilali" translation not Quran ļ that a big different. So u are with me there is a big different between god words and human words so u can't say Quran told breast beside as u know Arabic is very rich that why Quran with Arabic language any word u can't fully understand it else read a lot of source of translated explanation for quran or someone stay and learn u it.
That why I write before the bible changed it was with Latin language and now it is with English language ļ

First of all MohdAnwar - I'm not a kind of person that looses a self controle easily. No, I'm very patient person (the evidence: I answer for the same questions from You for 3-4 times in very, very long posts, again and again the same things...even when I have doubts if anyone reads my posts... ).

Why I finished the issue about "The Song of Songs"? My dear MohdAnwar, we could talk about this book for ages! But I answered THREE TIMES for Your question about this book. Anyway, this is an "Egypt forum" not "The Song of Songs forum"... If people want to know more about the book they will read it and they will read comments to it and they will have their own opinion. I don't know what "the converted" say about it 'cause I don't know personaly any one who has converted from Christianity into any different religion... But You know, I have a lot of friends from many different Christian Churches (the catholics - also the nuns, monks, priests; the protestants; the orthodox; the syrian-orthodox) and also the Jewish friends... And honestly I was curious what do they think about it... They all said: "A beautiful LOVE POETRY"... They were realy suprised (even the nuns...) that someone thinks it is a pornography. This is Your opinion and I accept that. No, I'm not shy when I talk about "The Song of Songs"... I wasn't shy when we read it and talked about it at school (and You have to know that it wasn't only at the lesson of religion but also at the lesson of literature...). Believe me, CHRISTIANS (not "the converted") but REAL CHRISTIANS don't feel shy when they talk about it because they know what is the sens of this book.

Dear All, I'm not trying to convert anyone to Christianity. I came to this forum only to SHOW what is the Christian teaching about some things. If You - MohdAnwar - think that I want to convert You - You are very wrong. I feel that You are strongly beliving muslim - AND I DO RESPECT THAT IN YOU. I'd prefered that You were a strong believing Muslim than a person who calls himself/herself a Christian and has no idea about what Christianity is.

Troubles101 is completlely right! We can't discus all the Christian dogmas at this forum 'cause this is not a place for this. I can explain You for thousands and thousands of times that Christians believe in One God in the Most Holy Tinity but I know You won't believe in this truth BECAUSE YOU ARE BELIEVING A MUSLIM. I can tell You for thousands and thousands of times that Christ was crucified for our salvation but I know You won't accept this BECAUSE YOU ARE A MUSLIM. If You accepted the truths that I believe in, You would be a Christian. I'm only trying to show WHAT ARE THE TRUTHS THAT THE CHRISTIANS BELIEVE IN.

Dear MohdAnwar, the only thing that we all - the Christians, the Jews, the Muslims - HAVE TO accept is that there are many religions around the world. I have to accept that the Muslims don't believe in The Holy Trinity or crucifiction. But You also have to accept that not all the people are Muslims, You have to accept that there are milions of people who DO believe with all they hearts in Only ONE God in The Most Holy Trinity. THERE IS NO SENS FOR US TO DISCUS THE DIFFERENCES BECAUSE IT DOESN'T GIVE ANYTHING, MY DEAR FRIEND. WE JUST HAVE TO ACCEPT THAT THERE ARE DIFFERENT POINTS OF VIEW!. We can discus about "The Song of Songs" for 10 years and still You will think that this is pornography and I will still think this is a love poetry...

Of course, You want to say now: " She stops the discusion 'cause she doesn't know what to answer for my questions". No, my dear friend. I guess I showed You that I'm ready to answer many questions. (Have You noticed that I also asked a few questions?... Nevermind). If You want to disus theological problems with me I will repeat my email address aslan2.uj@interia.pl or tesla20@interia.pl

For a change, I have a proposition - LETS ALL (the Muslims and the Christians, maybe there is a Jew among us) TRY TO FIND THE THINGS THAT JOIN US! This will be much more constructive and will make our God proud of us! And I don't mean only the things that are the same in the Quran and the Bible... I mean rather - WHAT ARE THE THINGS IN OUR ATTITUDE TO GOD THAT WE HAVE IN COMMON?

I will start - I think that one of the most important things is believing in the strenght of prayer, believing that The Allmighty God loves us and if we are faithful to Him, He will always help us and will always guide us.

The best greeting for everyone!

1-It is very hard for anyone to think that what he believes and his faith since he was child is wrong. I know that very well from many persons that I met over the net who was Christians and convert to Islam to the extent that (I met a woman in chatting she was 50's age and she was think she was Muslim and she was pray all the prayers as Muslims and at same time she was believing in Jesus as son of god until god make her all in Islam and could pass this problem ) and what I am sure about is.

(I BELEIVE THAT GOD WILL FORGIVE U IF U SEARCH FOR GOD AND U DIDN'T FIND THE TURE BUT GOD ONLY KNOW WHAT GOD WILL DO TO U IF U STAY AS YOU ARE AND U DIDN'T THINK)
A simple question ask to yourself

(Do u think ppl of Noah and Abraham and other non-believers that god destroy them or punish them do u think they was thinking they are wrong??????? I doubt and also it is a kind of stubbornness and see where they will be. same as anyone who not thinking where he standing)

Read more about prophets stories and apply it to yourself to see where u standing.

2- We believe in Islam that our Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) was the last prophet and no prophet will be after him and everyone of the Muslims have to show Islam way to other ppl who don't know it that why I am posting here just for the sake of god and the guidness is only from god (I do my job) by the way I am (architect engineer I am not student in any Islamic collages or even any organization who calling ppl to islam if there is).

3- Think in one thing we always think about it as Muslim the death it is hard to think like that but it is true ask yourself (If I died now if I was wrong in my religion what would happened to me ?).(take care noone know when he will died now , or tomorrow, even u still young)

4-An advise to anyone who thinking about his religion try to ask anyone why he or she convert whatever from Christianity to Islam or from Islam to Christianity and see why they convert and u may find some of your questions with them and when u find the true on any of it ask more until u fill your spirit with the truth (I can guide u to many ppl who was christians and became Musliums but reverse direction sorry i don't know anyone but we can search togther for them )

Best regards to all

Mohamed
My email
mohd_a_mohd@yahoo.com

I welcome with anyone want to know and I can give him a lot of resources and never convert from your religion until u be sure of what u are going to

[This message has been edited by MohdAnwar (edited 28 October 2004).]

Thank You very much for Your care about my faith and my salvation! I ensure You that my faith is fine

Unfortunately, by writing Your last post You have shown that it's not worth to discus with You because of a simple reason - You can't accept that people have a different point of view on many things. And also I'm afraid that You don't have enough theological knowledge, even on Your own religion. If Your only argument is:
"...METAPHORE ..bla bla bla" or
"The converted say...." or
... oh no, I want to forget about the porno stories ....
If these are Your arguments then a serious discusion with You is not possible.... Also You didn't answer any of my arguments or questions... Maybe it's because You know very little about what is Christianity, about it's history and theology (asking:"Who was first God or Jesus...?", having no idea about the Fathers of the Church, etc.).
Notice - I don't say "The Muslims don't have any arguments against Christianity". They do have (islamic theology has of course a long history and is very rich ...) Maybe I don't agree with these arguments but at least I accept that they exist... The problem is that You don't know these theological arguments - as everyone can see it from Your posts.

God is my wittnes that I didn't even think of converting any one and that I was only answering Your questions and trying to show the Christian point of view. When I saw that there is a conflict I tried to bring some peace. Because I think God wants us to be brothers and sisters and He wants us to love each other, to respect each other and to create peace not conflicts.

You know, in one of my posts I've asked a question (probably You haven't noticed because I think You haven't read any of my posts): why do You think people believe in the same truths and the same God in so many different ways?
Maybe someone would like to know my answer (my personal opinion):
Maybe it's a test for us. If everyone was a Muslim or if everyone was a Christian things would be much simplier. We wouldn't have the problems with tolerance etc. We wouldn't have to make an effort to understand others and to accept their point of view. Maybe God wants to try us - how do we put in practice the rules of our religion when we have to face the people who have a different believes than we have. Maybe... Both Islam and Christianity are religions of peace... How do we put it in practice? I was only trying to make peace... If You don't like it MohdAnwar - You make me feel VERY sorry... I had so much respect and enthusiasm towards the Muslims... But I STILL hope that other Muslims who are reading my post now are the people of peace not the people of conflicts...

I will pray for You, MohdAnwar. I hope God will open Your heart towards the people who believe in Him in different way than You do...

Bye!

P.S. You said:
"...sorry i don't know anyone but we can search togther for them...."
Ok. I invite You to Krakow (in Poland) so I could introduce You a few of my friends ...

First of all i think i explain many of things in this post make many sense to anyone who would think for one time and i am sure of the next:-

1-It is very hard for anyone to think that what he believes and his faith since he was child is wrong. I know that very well from many persons that I met over the net who was Christians and convert to Islam to the extent that (I met a woman in chatting she was 50's age and she was think she was Muslim and she was pray all the prayers as Muslims and at same time she was believing in Jesus as son of god until god make her all in Islam and could pass this problem ) and what I am sure about is.

(I BELEIVE THAT GOD WILL FORGIVE U IF U SEARCH FOR GOD AND U DIDN'T FIND THE TURE BUT GOD ONLY KNOW WHAT GOD WILL DO TO U IF U STAY AS YOU ARE AND U DIDN'T THINK)
A simple question ask to yourself

(Do u think ppl of Noah and Abraham and other non-believers that god destroy them or punish them do u think they was thinking they are wrong??????? I doubt and also it is a kind of stubbornness and see where they will be. same as anyone who not thinking where he standing)

Read more about prophets stories and apply it to yourself to see where u standing.

2- We believe in Islam that our Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) was the last prophet and no prophet will be after him and everyone of the Muslims have to show Islam way to other ppl who don't know it that why I am posting here just for the sake of god and the guidness is only from god (I do my job) by the way I am (architect engineer I am not student in any Islamic collages or even any organization who calling ppl to islam if there is).

3- Think in one thing we always think about it as Muslim the death it is hard to think like that but it is true ask yourself (If I died now if I was wrong in my religion what would happened to me ?).(take care noone know when he will died now , or tomorrow, even u still young)

4-An advise to anyone who thinking about his religion try to ask anyone why he or she convert whatever from Christianity to Islam or from Islam to Christianity and see why they convert and u may find some of your questions with them and when u find the true on any of it ask more until u fill your spirit with the truth (I can guide u to many ppl who was christians and became Musliums but reverse direction sorry i don't know anyone but we can search togther for them )

Best regards to all

Mohamed
My email
mohd_a_mohd@yahoo.com

I welcome with anyone want to know and I can give him a lot of resources and never convert from your religion until u be sure of what u are going to

[This message has been edited by MohdAnwar (edited 31 October 2004).]