posted
Eid marred by rise in alleged attacks on women
By Pakinam Amer First Published: October 31, 2006
Alarming accounts of sexual harassment riddle blogs
CAIRO: As Egyptians began their Eid Al-Fitr holidays last week, rumors of a wave of alleged sexual harassment tainted the joy of what is usually a family-oriented festive occasion.
The wave of harassment, manifested by public groping and touching of women accompanied by pushing and shoving and even pulling at headscarves and shirts, has stirred dismay among outspoken young women and men across some popular blogs.
Across these web spaces, which provide a free forum of expression for many, bloggers posted and shared pictures of incidents in which crowds of men harassed women.
In one picture, taken in the downtown area and posted on Misr Digital blog, a sea of men surround a single girl, the caption reading that they were groping her as she tried to squeeze herself free but the picture is inconclusive.
Another picture shows a shop owner blocking the entrance to his store, as dozens of men huddle around, with a caption explaining that the aforementioned girl had to hide in the store to escape harassment.
In another blog, called Stories, a girl named Mona related what she termed an eyewitness account of a similar incident in Alexandria, describing hordes of men encircling girls and groping their bodies with only the constant screaming finally scaring them off.
“These young men do not recognize right from wrong. They do not even distinguish between a respectful woman and one who is not,” comments the female blogger, who reportedly witnessed the incident right at the end of the holy month of Ramadan. “I do not think that these men were waiting for Ramadan to end to do all this. Whoever would do what they did would not be bothered by Ramadan in the first place.”
The blogger, who said she panicked when she saw other girls being groped while people stood by helplessly, gave general advice to girls: “Do not leave your homes during the holidays to go to central areas. The [sexual] craze has infected everyone there.”
The relating of this and other such incidents encouraged other female bloggers to boldly expose their own personal experiences. In one blog entitled Qatr Al-Nada, a female blogger encourages other girls to come out with their stories of harassment.
The outspoken blogger on Qatr Al-Nada describes the extent to which incidents of harassment, even if they were verbal and fleeting, can affect her day and her emotional state. When she is bothered by men on the street, the blogger says she “curses them sometimes, or screams or even slaps them. Sometimes I just ignore the whole thing in order not to spoil my day. But other times, I’m taken off guard [by the harassment] and I end up crying.”
Although the reactions are limited to private talks and online discussions, these numerous voices could arguably be deemed representative of many women who are bombarded by comments, name-calling, and sexual remarks (at the least) as they walk the streets of Cairo and use its ever-crowded and sometimes male-dominated public transportation.
And this phenomenon is not limited to Egyptian or Muslim women; it extends across society to include foreign non-Muslim women and girls who are often times shocked when faced with such humiliating experiences.
“Psychologically, harassment puts you in a situation when you’re constantly feeling persecuted, which means that women end up having moments of self-doubt, which could be transient, lasting for a fleeting second, or could last for a few days,” psychology professor and psychotherapist Abier El-Barbary told The Daily Star Egypt.
The victim, according to the psychologist, usually scrutinizes the reasons why the man picked her and what she could have done to avoid it. “It ends up changing the norm of how women look and dress like out there,” said El-Barbary.
A lecturer at the American University in Cairo, El-Barbary works with both local and foreign girls who have experienced on-the-street harassment, both verbal and physical. Although in most, if not all, cases the harassment does not go beyond touching and groping, the reactions to the act are different and harassment can induce trauma.
The reaction of female non-Muslims is usually more intense. “They are the ones who are in the most state of persecution,” said El-Barbary. “It doesn’t just give them a bad day but a traumatic experience.”
According to El-Barbary, some of these girls end up scared to go out on the street and their negative impression of their attackers gets generalized to apply to all Egyptian and Muslim men.
El-Barbary who gives advice to her students on how to avoid being victims of harassment said that the harassment “begins to get women to question their femininity.”
“Psychologically, they question how much femininity they are putting out in public,” said El-Barbary. Over time, negative thoughts kick in and women feel that the more femininity they manifest, the more they present an image of submission and of being a victim, according to her.
El-Barbary advises young women to carry a whistle when they walk the streets, walk straight, without smiling and without looking down — powerful body language that speaks surrender, says the psychologist. “Use the whistle. Instead of cursing, blow on it. This way you bring the public eye onto these men. Once they feel the shame of being under the spotlight, they will stop.”
Quote: "...“These young men do not recognize right from wrong. They do not even distinguish between a respectful woman and one who is not,” comments the female blogger,..."
It's not at all the business of men to judge and harass women on the streets if they feel like it!
So now all let's go and buy some whistles!!!Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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Egyptians are horrified by the news that women have been assaulted by hordes of young men in the centre of the capital, Cairo.
The incidents were first reported online by Egyptian bloggers, some of whom saw large number of men harassing the women and ripping off their clothes.
It all happened over the Eid al-Fitr period starting on 23 October, as thousands of young men thronged the streets of central Cairo to celebrate the end of the fasting month of Ramadan.
One blogger who took pictures of what happened dubbed the incidents "sexual voracity down town".
According to the bloggers, the attackers targeted veiled as well as unveiled women who happened to be on their own.
The state media ignored the incidents, but ordinary Egyptians where shocked when they heard for the first time eyewitness accounts broadcast on the private television channel Dream.
Women chased
"We saw one girl being chased by a man, her blouse torn off, she ran inside a restaurant," one eyewitness reported.
We took the girl inside and locked the door. There were four or five of us. But there were hundreds of young men outside trying to break down the door
Cairo shop owner
"Seconds later young boys were shouting that there was another one by the Miami cinema. We went there and saw another girl surrounded by a crowd trying to assault her. She managed to run inside a nearby building.
"A third girl jumped into a cab as she was being chased. But the taxi couldn't move because of the crowd. Then they tried to pull the driver out of the car then the girl herself," the witness told Dream TV.
One eyewitness was too embarrassed to recount what he saw: "There were youths harassing the young women. What a shame! I really can not say any more about it."
Social malaise
One blogger wrote that as the police failed to protect the women, shop keepers had to intervene.
A shop owner described to the TV station what happened: "We took the girl inside and locked the door. There were four or five of us. But there were hundreds of young men outside trying to break down the door."
The bloggers blamed the incidents on widespread sexual frustration among Egypt's youths.
Most of them cannot afford to get married and premarital sex is strictly forbidden.
One commentator said that this was evidence of the breakdown of law and order in Egypt.
Another said the state deployed the police only to suppress political dissent but could not care less about the welfare of its own citizens.
A psychologist, Amr Abu Khaleel, attributed the predatory behaviour to the possible use of drugs and the breakdown of traditional values.
One prominent writer and journalist, Nabeel Sharaf al-Deen, said that such behaviour was the symptom of a deeper malaise in Egyptian society and warned that such incidents were the first stirrings of much bigger social unrest.
A statement by the ministry of the interior played down the incident, adding that it had not received any complaints from the public. It urged those who had anything to report to contact the police.
posted
My adult daughter and I were in Cairo on the 26th, last day of the eid. We were there for her to have a painful procedure on her eye later in the day. As a distraction, I thought I would take her to see Beit Suhaymi (wonderful 16th century house) in the Islamic quarter. We had a car, but had to walk a short distance once we arrived. She was walking slightly behind me when I heard her cry. Tears coming down her face and shewas in a state of great distress. She had been fired on by a group of boys about 11-13 years old who had bb guns and were close by and she was in pain. I started to go after them and a man appeared waving his hands and shouting MALESH MALESH. No one else appeared. Why do parents give them these guns or allow them to use them? The men at Beit Suhaymi saw the whole thing but didn't want to get involved. They just said sorry quickly and were eager to get on with the tour. I was ready for these boys on the way back but they had disappeared. When I told her doctor about this later, he said things like this happen in the eid. So better to leave Cairo or stay indoors in the eid.
Posts: 21 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
bloody hell and i thought it was here only ,last novemebr 3days b4 i left for egypt to be with my husband ,my daughter who is of autistic and auspergers was cming home with her brother ,they wer fired upon ,by KIDS OF AGED 8,11,13,they dont go to school these ones ,they play havoc on the streets and the parents dont do nuffin and the police just keep taking them in and releacing them ,any way to cut a long story short,she got FIRED IN THE KNECK now this was distressing enough being im going in a d couple of days and she is of autisic natured andi was preparing her to stay with the support wrkers she cant cope with CHANGE and this CHANGED every thing ,the police got a inciedent room with cameras and special people to talk with her i was crying cus i had to go to the home office with in 3hrs to get my documents sealed this was happening the next day sorry ,she went through hell i then felt so guilty i had to leave her for 4weeks cause i and my husband had appointments to make our marriage legal i was married here in islam beofre he went home and well thats another story ,forget that but , i wask cryingnearely all my 4weeks cause my little girl was in a state ,the police rang me in egypt and said they were arrested ,but dont expect any thing cus they are all minors but not minors enought to carry these weapons ,there father the fatt bastered of these boys i wanted to smash he did say befoe we left u got whats coming to u and u know what i mean by that ,but any way i got home and in the feb the parents were fined 250 pounds ,in egyptian 2,000 500 ,i think ,and let off wif a caution ,she was so so so ill for sometime wud not walk that way cause it had been changed her route had it had been violated and ataccked in her eyes she clung and clinged with me ...,,so i know how u feel ELYSEE...im sorry for ur daughters exsperieince and we all here in egypt search hope your daughter is WELL NOW ,,welcome chimps ..
Posts: 4597 | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
As I said before it is the MEN who are the problem on the streets of the middle east. Women moslem or not, veiled or not should be free to walk the streets as they chose.
I wonder Batty how you would feel if one these veiled women was your sister or mother? Would she be asking for it?...........
posted
I believe it happens here on a large scale it is just that women here are afraid to report it. I am from the UK and had never in all my time in Britain meet someone who had been molested/touched up/groped, but here I know of 4 women who have had very unpleasant experiences in Cairo. One woman is Egyptian born and raised and she wears the scarf, another was an expat at the doctors surgery, myself in the lift and another woman in the lift also. I am not including the constant verbal harassment that expat woman get from taxi drivers or the propositions they get from walking down the street. Cairo like anywhere else in the world is full of perverts it is just that other countries have free press and are allowed to report it.
Posts: 167 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Many thanks Chimps. But really your experiences sound so much worse than ours! How awful for you and your daughter. Where are you in UK? I always felt so much safer in Egypt than anywhere else, but not so sure now...
Posts: 21 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
it was the uk,my son was staabbed in school in march of this year too ,and it was not enough eveidence for it to go to court ,and he was only 13 this boy with problems in the family unit he lives in ,yes u would think it was safer to be here but i found egypt tp be safer for me than here i dont feel safe atall now in my country with the fluctuation of uropeans coming here not that im prejudiced in any way its that they have there lawas where they are exspecially that they are mostly from the satelilte areas of where they came from and mostly had gangs and its been allowed to happen here it is a sorry state and i assume yes that you have problems within egypt in the same sort of circle as well .and i feel the law is too resiliant and not powerfull enough to get involved in other words in a english sort of way ''THEY DONT WANT TO UPSET THE APPLE CART '' if you get my meaning .....
Posts: 4597 | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
What disturbs me about this type of discussion is the men who use religion to justify disrespecting women. It is obvious that even women dressing conservatively suffer harassment in Egypt. Categorising women into respectable and non respectable is dangerous. It leads to a distorted view of sexuality and the rights of men. Add the frustration that the Egyptian lifestyle causes young men and you have a frightening social situation.
This will only get worse. It is a damning indictment that a society that claims to respect women offers such shoddy protection to its women. It is also ironic that women in the 'hotbed of sin' that is the west demand and get respect from men, in terms of going about our daily business.
When in Egypt, I'm only too aware that I have extra protection, as I'm a tourist. I've spent a considerable amount of time in Egypt and know how to deal with harassment. Dressing conservatively alone doesn't work. In Egypt, behaving like a cross between Julie Andrews in The Sound of Music and Mother Theresa is a good option. At home, I can just be me, laugh with men in the shops, look men in the eye, be innocently tactile and wear whatever I damn well like and have complete respect when shopping, etc. I am not saying that sexual harassment doesn't exist in the west. Of course it does. I feel confident though that there are measures in place to address this. Western men are deemed responsible for their bad behaviour, not women. This is a crucial difference between the attitude prevalent in Egypt today. Of course, there are decent, responsible Egyptian men too. The problem is that society encourages young men to behave badly and shift their guilty frustrations onto women.
Is it not time for Egyptian women to organise and do something about this? Western women weren't handed civil and gender rights on a plate. They had to fight hard for them. I know this is easier said than done but something has to happen soon before this whole sorry mess gets worse.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
Hear hear SWYS as always an excellent post. The women of Egypt have to demonstrate on a huge scale, in front of cameras, take off their veils and be seen doing it, get international attention and then the government will have to address the issue.
Any volunteers?
probably not...................
I also never in my life saw a man grope a girl in UK..........he knows what awaits him!!
Posts: 1500 | Registered: Dec 2005
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This forum has encouraged me to join Amnesty International, online. It's a small thing to do. Helps me protest against western governments, where relevant too!
I agree with you re western men. Dealing with unwanted attention is pretty straightforward, in the west. The vast majority of men take no for an answer and understand the consequencies of behaving disrespectfully. In Egypt, it irks me to behave modestly and respectfully in both dress and manner and still receive constant, unwanted invitations. At least when you go shopping in the west, you know that men stepping out of line will be liable to be sacked or disciplined for behaving badly. I have never heard of a single woman friend of mine being gropped in the west, while shopping or going about normal, daily chores. Sadly, in Egypt, I have heard horror stories from Egyptian women.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: It is also ironic that women in the 'hotbed of sin' that is the west demand and get respect from men, in terms of going about our daily business.
I'd be laughing my ass off if the situation wasn't so dire..
How many times I've heard Western female "reverts" talk about how Egyptian men are so much more respectful and better behaved than Western men.
About how they can walk the streets of Egypt without fear of being raped, harassed etc and go anywhere they please..
About how the West is so dangerous etc..
I've heard it all, and to hear this, is really vindication on my end.
But, I take no joy in this vindication because it's really a serious problem and no laughing matter..
posted
It's safe in the West? Women get respected? You'd never see anything like that happening in the West? Come on people, the West is not the paradigm of respect for women that you are trying to make out. Cairo is not the only place in the world where a gang of lunatic men go on the rampage and the police do nothing:
Why didn't the NYPD stop the Central Park wolf pack?
With Amadou Diallo, the cops went too far. In Central Park, not far enough. But guess what? It's the same problem.
- - - - - - - - - - - - By Bruce Shapiro
June 15, 2000 | The day after a mob in New York's Central Park sexually assaulted at least 24 women unimpeded by nearby police, Bruce Springsteen fans lined up 25 blocks away for the Madison Square Garden concert at which the Boss sang "American Skin (41 Shots)," his new dirge for police shooting victim Amadou Diallo.
The collision of these two Manhattan events encapsulates the profoundly polarized national debate over policing. Springsteen's song -- with the words "41 shots" intoned over and over -- takes on the NYPD for overreacting: "Is it a gun? Is it a knife? Is it a wallet? This is your life."
But the victims of the Central Park "wolf pack" attack -- a sort of super frat party, in the wake of the Puerto Rican Day parade, which escalated from super-squirter fights to stripping women's clothing and near-rape -- say the cops didn't react enough, and the emerging details leave little room for doubt: "I went over with my camera and started shooting but the cops just stayed there," said witness David Grandison. "I saw girls getting groped, getting pushed down. The cops knew what was going on."
So which is it? Is the NYPD too harsh or too soft?
Here is what needs to be understood about the NYPD's latest scandal: Goldbricking cops in Central Park and trigger-happy cops in the Bronx are the same problem. The cops who did not want to disrupt their easy Sunday overtime to listen to fitness instructor Anne Payton Bryant describe a horrifying attack are a symptom of the same problem as the undercover officers who fired those 41 shots memorialized in Springsteen's song.
It's the same problem that New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani and Police Commissioner Howard Safir did not want to face after the shootings of unarmed Diallo and Patrick Dorismond; and the problem they were still evading this week. Giuliani went into the same change-the-subject mode as when he revealed Dorismond's juvenile arrest record, pointing Monday to all the beer cans confiscated at the parade: "This was not a police department which was asleep that day."
As the horrifying details of Sunday's assaults emerge -- 24 women, including a 14-year-old, have told police they were groped or raped; the mob in the park ran wild for at least a half-hour after the first victims ran to police officers on the park's edge; Peyton Bryant shuffled from one officer to another until she was finally humiliated at a precinct house -- one fundamental question remains: How did it happen? How did so many police officers work so hard to look the other way?
It's not a problem of lazy officers or overzealous officers. Just as much as the Diallo and Dorismond cases, police inaction in the face of Sunday's rampage reveals the scandalous crisis of philosophy and leadership behind the NYPD's publicity machine.
Philosophy? Ask David Harris, a professor at the University of Toledo School of Law and a leading authority on police management. "Under Giuliani, the NYPD way of doing things is that the police decide what is good for you," he says. "They have been trained and encouraged not to listen. There is no reason we should expect that to be any different when handling victims than when handling perpetrators."
Leadership? Ask Joseph McNamara, a research fellow at the Hoover Institute, a former chief of police in San Jose, Calif., and a former New York police inspector. "Giuliani has got cops hyped up to treat the public with contempt," he says. "They spend their days stopping and searching people, 90 percent of whom are innocent. You can't turn that contempt on and off like a faucet."
"Giuliani wants all the credit for decreases in crime," McNamara says, but avoids responsibility when things go wrong. You want to know what will happen here? They're going to announce some demotions and find a couple of scapegoats. But the people really responsible, Safir and Giuliani, will not be held accountable."
In fact, shifting the blame has already begun. Anonymous NYPD officials are claiming in the media that the Central Park attacks following the Puerto Rico Day Parade resulted from politicians taking a hands-off attitude toward a minority community event. It's payback, they hint, for the police-brutality protests, of which Springsteen's song -- derided by the Patrolmen's Benevolent Association -- is being treated as the latest chapter.
So the near-rape of Peyton Bryant and 15 other women is Al Sharpton's fault?
Such blame-shifting, says former NYPD commissioner William Bratton -- who instituted many of the NYPD's quality-of-life policies, but is now a Giuliani critic -- is "a dangerous undercurrent. One of the challenges for the mayor and police commissioner will be to deal with that undercurrent." But, warns Bratton, there's no sign that Giuliani and Safir are coping with this crisis.
"It has only fueled the controversy for the mayor and police commissioner to focus on statistics," he says. "When they attempted to downplay this, they ceased to be effective messengers to the community. It was the wrong approach to take to this incident. You should express outrage, because it was outrageous."
McNamara, who was a finalist in former Mayor David Dinkins' search for NYPD commissioner, believes that the problem is strongly tied to Giuliani's emphasis on pushing down precinct crime rates. "The reward system is not in reporting crime," he says. "Instead, precinct commanders' promotions depend on keeping the crime reports low. So when you report a serious felony like this without an arrest, you get questions."
It's also, he says, the result of years of the NYPD's hostility to the neighborhoods they police. "Even when I was an officer, the force used to have a rule that there should be no unnecessary contact with the public. That's been revived in recent years, with all of these searches and entrapment. A police officer who doesn't talk to anyone on their beat isn't going to know how to talk to a victim any more than they know how to talk to a perpetrator."
As more details of the catastrophic failure of the NYPD in Central Park come out, the blame-shifting is sure to continue. Look for more accusations of the cops being "soft" on the Puerto Rican Day Parade, more accusations of post-Diallo politicking.
The reality, however, may be best captured in Springsteen's song, which includes a central image of a police officer praying desperately over Diallo's body in that vestibule. The Central Park wolf pack, the Diallo shooting -- both are symptoms of a police department that has lost its way, ill at ease in its own American skin. http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2000/06/15/central_park/print.html
And now we wait for the "yes, but...."s to start! Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: It is also ironic that women in the 'hotbed of sin' that is the west demand and get respect from men, in terms of going about our daily business.
I'd be laughing my ass off if the situation wasn't so dire..
How many times I've heard Western female "reverts" talk about how Egyptian men are so much more respectful and better behaved than Western men.
About how they can walk the streets of Egypt without fear of being raped, harassed etc and go anywhere they please..
About how the West is so dangerous etc..
I've heard it all, and to hear this, is really vindication on my end.
But, I take no joy in this vindication because it's really a serious problem and no laughing matter..
~Alistair
I have to say that I have NEVER heard any western woman here on ever say that they have never been harrassed walking along egypt"s streets???????? Yes I am sure that some harrassment does happen but I personally have never seen it. That is my experience but I know for a fact that if I walk out my door tomorrow and walk 5 mins through cairo I will get unwanted attention, whistles, remarks, the usual. You are a man, you do not know what it is like to walk the streets shopping as a western woman, or any woman and be harrassed. Sexual harrassment is a huge problem to all women of egypt, visitors and citizens alike.
Posts: 1500 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Newcomer, had to fish out an article that was six years old to attempt to illustrate a point. Interesting that choosing to condemn the west, is more important than focusing on the reality in Egypt. No one said the west was perfect. Do we have to drag out cases of gang rape in Egypt(like the disabled girl, raped in an Egyptian square) and play 'tit for tat' scoring, or simply acknowledge there is a problem in Egypt? It's nicer to hide behind rose-tinted glasses, I guess.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
a) I didn't fish an article out to illustrate a point, it was just sent to me, although if I'd wanted to fish out a recent one I'm sure I wouldn't have had much problem in doing so.
b) In case you didn't notice, I have already posted on the other thread about the disturbing incident in Cairo. I am well aware of it and disgusted by it.
c) Everytime there is a discussion about Egypt and the men here or how women are treated/live, you and others trot out the same tired old phrases about how much better it is in the West for women...I can hardly be accused of initiating tit-for-tatting!. Many of us have left the West because we didn't like living there and would not want to return to live there again. It may be fine to live there for a "liberal agnostic westerner", but its preferable to be here for many Muslims, with all its faults and problems...and no we don't have rose coloured glasses on...we face the realities every day and still choose to stay!
d) And by the way, it's also getting pretty boring to see all these condescending, snide comments that are being thrown around to anyone who doesn't follow your particular way of thinking. "Discussions" are becoming pretty one sided on this forum these days!
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: [QB] Toots,
This forum has encouraged me to join Amnesty International, online. It's a small thing to do. Helps me protest against western governments, where relevant too!
I knew it
Human rights activist on board
SWYS, i like you more Posts: 3128 | From: Not Your Heaven | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
Newcomer, you chose to live in Egypt. Many Egyptians don't even have the luxury of leaving their country. Many of the western women you refer to enjoy a better standard of living and better protection than most Egyptian citizens. I imagine you haven't renounced your horrible western passport or the rights citizenship afford. Your view of Egypt is tinted by muslim coloured glasses. Have you ever considered the rights of those living in Egypt who are not muslims or who don't wish to follow the strict codes of that faith? Hey, as long as you are all right, why bother about opposing views?
On many posts, I have stated that there are decent, responsible, caring Egyptian men. Criticising the west is not something I have difficulty with. Most western women go to live in Egypt as they marry an Egyptian man, not because they consider Egypt to be a haven for human rights. If you are bored by the discussion, why join in? I welcome opposing views but your snotty, standard, attack-the-west-first, distorted reality diminishes debate. In this thread, your contribution to a discussion on sexual abuse on women in Cairo was:
''It's safe in the West? Women get respected? You'd never see anything like that happening in the West? Come on people, the West is not the paradigm of respect for women that you are trying to make out. Cairo is not the only place in the world where a gang of lunatic men go on the rampage and the police do nothing.''
Your rhetorical rants against the country of your birth do little to focus the debate on the very real issues facing women living in Egypt. Some of them won't be able to just pick up a western passport and leave, if things get worse.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
it depends doesnt it? When i lived in NY, i got cat calls all the time. Some kisses being blown, winks, etc etc, but no one ever tried touching, or used offensive language.
In TX, this cat calling, whistling thing, is really really really minimul. I think people are more old fashioned and polite down here- the only guys who do the whistling are the mexicans :-)
Buuuut, In alot of muslim counties that ive been to (even though i was dressed "islamically") i got the cat calls, the winks, kisses, AND pokes, pinches, pushes, groping... i even had the shoe sales man put his hand up my leg! I've never felt so threatened in the U.S.
Posts: 1967 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: Have you ever considered the rights of those living in Egypt who are not muslims or who don't wish to follow the strict codes of that faith? Hey, as long as you are all right, why bother about opposing views?
If you are bored by the discussion, why join in? I welcome opposing views but your snotty, standard, attack-the-west-first, distorted reality diminishes debate.
And that is precisely why I and others are no longer attempting to engage you in any meaningful discourse...it is impossible to have a discussion with you about an issue from any perspective than your own without you getting personal and insulting the person you are talking to, making wild assumptions and insinuations, and commenting without fully reading what was written! It's as if your "reality" is the only one worth considering and any one who doesn't agree is considered beneath you. That is what I am finding boring, as I stated above, not the discussions.
If I do appear you to be "attacking the West" to you, you might just stop and think for a while and wonder why! Perhaps because the overwhelming number of posts on this board are attacking Egypt/Egyptians/Muslims who are following a more conservative interpretation of Islam than is politically correct these days, and so I sometimes try to show some other perspectives sometimes, and sometimes I just react like any other human being who is tired of feeling constantly under attack!
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by newcomer: It's safe in the West? Women get respected? You'd never see anything like that happening in the West? Come on people, the West is not the paradigm of respect for women that you are trying to make out. Cairo is not the only place in the world where a gang of lunatic men go on the rampage and the police do nothing:
Why didn't the NYPD stop the Central Park wolf pack?
With Amadou Diallo, the cops went too far. In Central Park, not far enough. But guess what? It's the same problem.
- - - - - - - - - - - - By Bruce Shapiro
June 15, 2000 | The day after a mob in New York's Central Park sexually assaulted at least 24 women unimpeded by nearby police, Bruce Springsteen fans lined up 25 blocks away for the Madison Square Garden concert at which the Boss sang "American Skin (41 Shots)," his new dirge for police shooting victim Amadou Diallo.
The collision of these two Manhattan events encapsulates the profoundly polarized national debate over policing. Springsteen's song -- with the words "41 shots" intoned over and over -- takes on the NYPD for overreacting: "Is it a gun? Is it a knife? Is it a wallet? This is your life."
But the victims of the Central Park "wolf pack" attack -- a sort of super frat party, in the wake of the Puerto Rican Day parade, which escalated from super-squirter fights to stripping women's clothing and near-rape -- say the cops didn't react enough, and the emerging details leave little room for doubt: "I went over with my camera and started shooting but the cops just stayed there," said witness David Grandison. "I saw girls getting groped, getting pushed down. The cops knew what was going on."
So which is it? Is the NYPD too harsh or too soft?
Here is what needs to be understood about the NYPD's latest scandal: Goldbricking cops in Central Park and trigger-happy cops in the Bronx are the same problem. The cops who did not want to disrupt their easy Sunday overtime to listen to fitness instructor Anne Payton Bryant describe a horrifying attack are a symptom of the same problem as the undercover officers who fired those 41 shots memorialized in Springsteen's song.
It's the same problem that New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani and Police Commissioner Howard Safir did not want to face after the shootings of unarmed Diallo and Patrick Dorismond; and the problem they were still evading this week. Giuliani went into the same change-the-subject mode as when he revealed Dorismond's juvenile arrest record, pointing Monday to all the beer cans confiscated at the parade: "This was not a police department which was asleep that day."
As the horrifying details of Sunday's assaults emerge -- 24 women, including a 14-year-old, have told police they were groped or raped; the mob in the park ran wild for at least a half-hour after the first victims ran to police officers on the park's edge; Peyton Bryant shuffled from one officer to another until she was finally humiliated at a precinct house -- one fundamental question remains: How did it happen? How did so many police officers work so hard to look the other way?
It's not a problem of lazy officers or overzealous officers. Just as much as the Diallo and Dorismond cases, police inaction in the face of Sunday's rampage reveals the scandalous crisis of philosophy and leadership behind the NYPD's publicity machine.
Philosophy? Ask David Harris, a professor at the University of Toledo School of Law and a leading authority on police management. "Under Giuliani, the NYPD way of doing things is that the police decide what is good for you," he says. "They have been trained and encouraged not to listen. There is no reason we should expect that to be any different when handling victims than when handling perpetrators."
Leadership? Ask Joseph McNamara, a research fellow at the Hoover Institute, a former chief of police in San Jose, Calif., and a former New York police inspector. "Giuliani has got cops hyped up to treat the public with contempt," he says. "They spend their days stopping and searching people, 90 percent of whom are innocent. You can't turn that contempt on and off like a faucet."
"Giuliani wants all the credit for decreases in crime," McNamara says, but avoids responsibility when things go wrong. You want to know what will happen here? They're going to announce some demotions and find a couple of scapegoats. But the people really responsible, Safir and Giuliani, will not be held accountable."
In fact, shifting the blame has already begun. Anonymous NYPD officials are claiming in the media that the Central Park attacks following the Puerto Rico Day Parade resulted from politicians taking a hands-off attitude toward a minority community event. It's payback, they hint, for the police-brutality protests, of which Springsteen's song -- derided by the Patrolmen's Benevolent Association -- is being treated as the latest chapter.
So the near-rape of Peyton Bryant and 15 other women is Al Sharpton's fault?
Such blame-shifting, says former NYPD commissioner William Bratton -- who instituted many of the NYPD's quality-of-life policies, but is now a Giuliani critic -- is "a dangerous undercurrent. One of the challenges for the mayor and police commissioner will be to deal with that undercurrent." But, warns Bratton, there's no sign that Giuliani and Safir are coping with this crisis.
"It has only fueled the controversy for the mayor and police commissioner to focus on statistics," he says. "When they attempted to downplay this, they ceased to be effective messengers to the community. It was the wrong approach to take to this incident. You should express outrage, because it was outrageous."
McNamara, who was a finalist in former Mayor David Dinkins' search for NYPD commissioner, believes that the problem is strongly tied to Giuliani's emphasis on pushing down precinct crime rates. "The reward system is not in reporting crime," he says. "Instead, precinct commanders' promotions depend on keeping the crime reports low. So when you report a serious felony like this without an arrest, you get questions."
It's also, he says, the result of years of the NYPD's hostility to the neighborhoods they police. "Even when I was an officer, the force used to have a rule that there should be no unnecessary contact with the public. That's been revived in recent years, with all of these searches and entrapment. A police officer who doesn't talk to anyone on their beat isn't going to know how to talk to a victim any more than they know how to talk to a perpetrator."
As more details of the catastrophic failure of the NYPD in Central Park come out, the blame-shifting is sure to continue. Look for more accusations of the cops being "soft" on the Puerto Rican Day Parade, more accusations of post-Diallo politicking.
The reality, however, may be best captured in Springsteen's song, which includes a central image of a police officer praying desperately over Diallo's body in that vestibule. The Central Park wolf pack, the Diallo shooting -- both are symptoms of a police department that has lost its way, ill at ease in its own American skin. http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2000/06/15/central_park/print.html
And now we wait for the "yes, but...."s to start!
Hi newcomer, I was just talking about this in another thread! This incident was actually videotaped by someone in the mob as this happened, I saw the footage and it was HORRIBLE! No person should have to go thru what those women had to endure, they were in tears and hysterical, very few to help them until it was too late. I can only imagine what the Egyptian women endured. The difference is that the videotape was taken and broadcast, people began to turn in the men (perps) and they were arrested and tried. I really wish it was done here, these men who did this in Cairo will only get more brazen and think they can do it more. pretty scary~
Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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There were videos and photos taken in Cairo too and they have been put in the blogs. The sad fact is that even if the people are ever brought to justice, it won't take away the effect of what was not stopped from happening, some of those women, both Egyptians and Americans, are going to be emotionally scarred for life by what happened.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: Have you ever considered the rights of those living in Egypt who are not muslims or who don't wish to follow the strict codes of that faith? Hey, as long as you are all right, why bother about opposing views?
If you are bored by the discussion, why join in? I welcome opposing views but your snotty, standard, attack-the-west-first, distorted reality diminishes debate.
And that is precisely why I and others are no longer attempting to engage you in any meaningful discourse...it is impossible to have a discussion with you about an issue from any perspective than your own without you getting personal and insulting the person you are talking to, making wild assumptions and insinuations, and commenting without fully reading what was written! It's as if your "reality" is the only one worth considering and any one who doesn't agree is considered beneath you. That is what I am finding boring, as I stated above, not the discussions.
If I do appear you to be "attacking the West" to you, you might just stop and think for a while and wonder why! Perhaps because the overwhelming number of posts on this board are attacking Egypt/Egyptians/Muslims who are following a more conservative interpretation of Islam than is politically correct these days, and so I sometimes try to show some other perspectives sometimes, and sometimes I just react like any other human being who is tired of feeling constantly under attack!
In the west we can speak out like it or not. We have that freedom and we use it. I for one dont mince my words, I tell it like I experience it. I dont pussy foot around the issue and many many people here dont like that. I have my enemies and I know them well. SWYS does the same. our judgement is not clouded by religion, far from it. I came to live here because I married an egyptian man. We decided to come and live here, we can go back anytime but chose to stay. There are many things I hate about the west, many things I have happily left behind, I am and have never been scared to admit that. That is not a problem for me at all. But what pisses me off is the fact that should any 'westerner' dare to speak up or complain about issues regarding Egypt they are insulted and attacked. Just like you are doing now. That's fine, this is a public forum, you have your opinion, and I have mine. It is a blessing that chinderella has joined this forum. She as a moslem woman seems to recognise the many problems of her country and is not afraid to talk about or discuss them, unlike the majority here!
I am sure that when you first came to live in Egypt many things shocked and annoyed you? Just as they do me. You are different I suppose to me, I speak my mind, always have done, always will. maybe if more people thought along those lines this poor, beautiful country would not be in it's present state!
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quote:Originally posted by newcomer: Assalamu alaykum Smuckers!
There were videos and photos taken in Cairo too and they have been put in the blogs. The sad fact is that even if the people are ever brought to justice, it won't take away the effect of what was not stopped from happening, some of those women, both Egyptians and Americans, are going to be emotionally scarred for life by what happened.
oh yea for sure! I didn't kow videos and photos were taken! do you know how to find these links to see these men? I can't believe the gov't wouldn't do anything especially if there are vids and pics out there, the denial is worse almost than the act itself, it's like dishonoring those women twice. Salaam.
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quote:Originally posted by tootifrooti: But what pisses me off is the fact that should any 'westerner' dare to speak up or complain about issues regarding Egypt they are insulted and attacked. Just like you are doing now. That's fine, this is a public forum, you have your opinion, and I have mine.
My dear tootifrooti, I have made many criticims of Egypt on this board, although maybe not in the same florid language that you use. I have even done so about this incident, but as you say our styles are different so maybe you didn't notice.
Also if you noticed, my criticisms of SayWhatYouSee were what I felt about the style she uses when responding to people whose view she doesn't share, not that she was criticizing what was happening in Egypt. We are all shocked by it and wondering what the repercussions will be.
You say that your opinion is not clouded by religion, but it is clouded by your own perspectives/philosophy on life, and you base your judgements on your previous learning like all of us do. None of us has a mind totally free of external influences.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: oh yea for sure! I didn't kow videos and photos were taken! do you know how to find these links to see these men? I can't believe the gov't wouldn't do anything especially if there are vids and pics out there, the denial is worse almost than the act itself, it's like dishonoring those women twice. Salaam.
These are some of the links I have been sent, and some of them give links to others too...I haven't checked them all out as it isn't something really want to watch, but some of it is very disturbing reading. http://malek-x.net/node/268
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Newcomer you confuse debate with attack. Your comments to me were far more 'insulting' than my initial 'rose-tinted' glasses remark. Rather than whine on about this, I responded to the points made in the debate. Laughably, you claim to speak on behalf of other ES members. This is too funny. I suggest they elect a better representative or be honest enough to state any issues openly.
Your contribution to this debate has merely deflected from core issues. Far from attacking Egypt, I love the country and feel empathy with the plight of people there. The voices of moderate, modern muslims and christians on this forum provide a bright note of optimism against your extreme...er, more 'conservative' views. Your answer to every Egyptian problem seems to be to point out how terrible the west is. We can all learn from differences in culture.
Unlike you, I claim to speak only for myself. The debate on this board doesn't attack more conservative views, it often just exposes them as weak and irrational. I have been very impressed by the knowledge, presentation of argument and passion of some moderate muslims on ES. Your posts are just a blah blah blah bland, blind refusal to see beyond the end of your nose.
Do sleep well!
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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Toots, style of writing is open, upfront and warm. To me, this is preferable to the pompous, pious tone evident in Newcomer's writing. Every painful paragraph of Newcomer's 'style' - best summed up as, 'Like me, like me, Egyptians - I hate the west' makes me cringe.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by tootifrooti: I came to live here because I married an egyptian man. We decided to come and live here, we can go back anytime but chose to stay. There are many things I hate about the west, many things I have happily left behind, I am and have never been scared to admit that. That is not a problem for me at all.
I can tell you that, from the little I read from you, you've made a big mistake and you will never make it in Egypt. Cut your losses and convince your husband to move back to......I don't know where your're from.
quote:Originally posted by tootifrooti: But what pisses me off is the fact that should any 'westerner' dare to speak up or complain about issues regarding Egypt they are insulted and attacked.
Some people( Westerners and Egyptians alike) do nothing but complain and in doing that they fail to recognize the causes of the problems and therefore offer no solutions. With their narrow minded view of Egypt, they think that they are correct and when someone disagrees with them they get the false impression that they're being attacked.
Posts: 164 | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by newcomer: Assalamu alaykum Smuckers!
The sad fact is that even if the people are ever brought to justice, it won't take away the effect of what was not stopped from happening,
Yes but it may prevent it from happening again. It will also give women confidence to speak up and stand up when they are harassed. Most of all it would be just.
Posts: 164 | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Auto Matic For The People:
quote:Originally posted by newcomer: Assalamu alaykum Smuckers!
The sad fact is that even if the people are ever brought to justice, it won't take away the effect of what was not stopped from happening,
Yes but it may prevent it from happening again. It will also give women confidence to speak up and stand up when they are harassed. Most of all it would be just.
I agree that it would make the men think twice about trying it again, knowing they are likely to get away with it will only make them bold to try it a second time. And I'm sure that one of the major reasons that the less dramatic, but also disturbing levels of harassment seem to be increasing, because these men are getting away with it and they expect to.
When I first came here I would often see men getting thrown off buses with a crowd of men attacking them for whatever they had done to some woman, but now the men are getting bolder as no-one stands up for the women.
It would take a massive cultural change for many women to be able to report these very public acts of harassment though, even if they didn't have to go to the vice ministry. It will take a long time for the culture of "she was asking for it in some way" to pass.
As to getting justice, well, what is the correct retribution to get justice for an act like that? The only real justice that can be given is to prevent them from ever being able to do that to anyone else again, as they will never be able to feel the degradation that the women will carry with them for a large part of their lives.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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Hey, good morning, everyone! Now that's what I call a 'heated' debate!
Anyway, I was thinking if Egypt's women (and perhaps even foreign women - after all we are all females and we have to endure the same pain) - are ready to sign an anti-sexual harrassement-petition . We would need preferably as many signatures as we can get and this goes off to the Egyptian government. Let them create and establish a new law with serious consequences for the males who are getting 'out of line'. For the beginning put more police forces on the streets until the men get the message. I am sure there is much to be done; I just say 'quick prosecution' - that's what the Egyptians are good at it. Also let the Imams in the mosques do properly their jobs, there should remind every single day the men to be respectful to all females.
Now what do you think about? Would it be a great way to finally tackle the problem?
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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By NADIA ABOU EL-MAGD, Associated Press Writer 12:22 PM PST, November 2, 2006
CAIRO, Egypt -- Alleged mob attacks on women during last week's Islamic holiday have set off a political dispute involving President Hosni Mubarak's regime.
Witnesses accuse police of doing nothing to protect the women as they walked on downtown Cairo streets, and democracy activists have cited the controversy as a sign that Egypt is mismanaged and corrupt.
The government has accused the bloggers who publicized the incidents of defaming the country, and some police officials have said there is no evidence any attacks occurred.
But a handful of Internet bloggers, who said they either witnessed the attacks or spoke with witnesses, reported that on the nights of Oct. 23 and 24 women were attacked by groups of men and boys who groped them and tore at their clothes. Some women wore head scarves or full Islamic veils and others were with their families, the bloggers said.
"Anything that moves and smells like a female was attacked," said Wael Abbas, a democracy activist and blogger who said he witnessed the alleged attacks and published photographs of them on his blog.
Crowds of people filled Cairo's streets on those nights to celebrate the beginning of Eid el-Fitr, the three-day holiday that marks the end of the holy Muslim month of Ramadan.
Interior Ministry officials, quoted on condition of anonymity in the Egyptian press, said they received no complaints of such attacks. "We should close the file on disparaging rumors," said one police official quoted in Al Ahram, Egypt's biggest government daily.
The government made no other official comment.
But an editorial in Rose el-Youssef, a pro-government daily, carried the headline: "To what extent are they just defaming Egyptians?" The author singled out Abbas for condemnation, accusing him of fabricating a "sexual revolution downtown."
Opposition newspapers and activists have seized on the controversy to broadly criticize Mubarak's government. A similar outcry occurred after a ferry sank in the Red Sea in February, killing more than 1,000 laborers.
"Nothing amazes me in Egypt lately ... But what happened during Eid took me back to sad surprises," Sahar el-Mougy, a female novelist and activist, wrote in the independent daily Al-Masry Al-Youm.
While low-level harassment of women is common in Egyptian cities, reports of assaults are rare. Police are usually on the streets in large numbers.
Some activists said the police seemed more concerned about protecting Mubarak and his allies than ordinary citizens, while others criticized Mubarak directly.
"They (the police) are a political force in the service of the regime and not of the citizens," said Aida Seif el-Dawla, an activist and the director of the Al-Nadim Center for the Management and Rehabilitation of Victims of Violence.
Some linked the recent reported attacks and assaults on women activists and journalists during a referendum vote last year.
"It was the security forces who introduced the culture of violating women when they tore the clothes of Kifaya (an opposition group) female activists, said Abdel Bari Atwan, editor of the London-based daily Al-Quds Al-Arabi.
Security officials have said clashes linked to the 2005 referendum, held to determine whether more than one candidate would be allowed to run in presidential elections, were between Mubarak supporters and Kifaya members and that security officials were not involved. But Associated Press reporters saw plainclothes agents taking instructions from both uniformed and non-uniformed government security officers.
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Word on the Street: Do women feel safe on Cairo’s streets?
By Ahmad Abul Wafa First Published: November 2, 2006
CAIRO: The city is abuzz with rumors and speculation concerning the alleged sexual harassment of women by a horde of men downtown on the first day of Eid Al-Fitr. Everyone seems to have something to say about it.
So The Daily Star Egypt posed the question: Is it still safe for a young woman to walk on the capital’s streets?
There is no problem hanging out on Cairo streets at all. There is a lot of verbal flirting but we’ve gotten used to that. There are some impolite and disrespectful guys; this is true. But they cannot cause us any harm while we are walking in the streets. Randa Mohamed, student.
I used to flirt with girls but believe me they feel happy about that. I had a friend who told me once that she was sad because no one flirted with her on the street. But the usual light flirting is all we can accept. To harass a girl by any means is not acceptable at all. We usually come to the aid of any girl who asks for help on the street, although it rarely happens. Mahmoud El-Shemy, salesman.
I always blame the girl for being harassed because no one would bother a respectable girl. But many girls now expose themselves in tight clothes. Even the veiled girls wear tight attire. What can I do to a guy who flirts with a girl who buys cigarettes from me? But if anybody tried to touch a girl on the street people would beat him. Ragab, kiosk owner.
I remember a few years ago a very young boy about 10 or 11 years old touched my body and ran away. I couldn’t believe that I had been abused by a kid. I didn’t know what to do. Should I shout and make a scandal or just keep quiet and act as if nothing happened? I chose the second option. I was paranoid for a couple of months. I was very irritated and over conscious to the extent that many times it was too tiring for me to walk down the street. I have regained my trust in the people of Cairo but I can’t forget this incident at all. Saneya Mansour, housewife.
I believe the problem is economical in the first place. Young people don’t have money to marry. Many girls also sell themselves on the streets for a few pounds. Look at the main streets during summertime. People from the Arab Gulf countries are everywhere trying to hunt up a girl to spend the night with. Surprisingly, they find these girls. This makes Egyptian guys think that most of the girls on the streets are the same. Khaled Ezz El-Din, lawyer.
During my high school years some of my colleagues walked on the street in a way as if they were asking guys to flirt with them. But no one was ever abused or harassed. When I got older I found out that the abused girls never talk about it. It happens, but not regularly. It is there. I always carry pepper spray in my handbag when I go out. Salma Ateya, student.
I have no excuse for what guys do on the streets. But there are many factors that contribute to the fact that harassment has become a habit on Egyptian streets especially in the summer. Girls wear tight provocative clothes; young people don’t have studies or work to keep them busy and also the movies and TV channels use females as a good background for most of the shows. As if their bodies are the only good they have. Mahmoud Gamal, officer.
quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: Anyway, I was thinking if Egypt's women (and perhaps even foreign women - after all we are all females and we have to endure the same pain) - are ready to sign an anti-sexual harrassement-petition .
The Egyptian Center for Women's Rights has been organizing a campaign for some time against the persistent verbal and physical violence against women in Cairo. It is possible to contain it and deter it; it has virtually vanished from several Gulf countries as a result of increased police vigilance, fines, and the publicizing of the pictures of perpetrators. Something like that should be done here. Just because the men of Egypt are sexually frustrated, poor, and oppressed does not mean they can oppress others. Let's do something - go volunteer, anything. I will. We women are Egyptians too and the streets are just as much ours as theirs.
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I don't think we have to make it a civilisation issue. Things like this happen in the west too. I happened to be on the Champs Elysees in Paris when the french team won a match and girls were also harrassed by hords of youg men. Still these youg men are free to have relationships and they do. About what happenen in Cairo the good thing is that people are shoked and that it caused all these reactions. That what we need : to make people realize it is a real concern, that eveybody has to fight it and that women don't have to feel guilty. It might be a good idea to support the ECWR campaign. The law has to change too, it's not acceptable that a file is open against a woman who wants to complaint about harassment
Posts: 37 | From: cairo | Registered: Nov 2006
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Things like this happen in the west too. I happened to be on the Champs Elysees in Paris when the french team won a match and girls were also harrassed by hords of youg men. Still these youg men are free to have relationships and they do.
I was in Paris last week with My Egyptian friend and got harassed in the middle of the Champs Elysees by a brunch of young people. My friend was very surprised as before when I told him that, harassment also happen in the France, he refused to believe me, claiming that Egypt was the best place in the world for harassment.
I really hate, when people talk about the “west” like only one country. In London for example, harassment is pretty rare, so of course someone who would travel in London would think that the “West” it’s safe, but no, it really depends on which country you travel to. There are some cities in Europe which are definitely much more dangerous than Cairo, like Paris, I lived there 5 years, and yes I have to admit that you really have to know where you are going if you don’t want to get in troubles, and At least in Cairo you can get can some help from other people in the street, while in Paris people tempt to not move their ass if they see someone being harassed.
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Dalia would you please start a new thread asking for stories to the link you provided ? It might get lost in this one. cheers Posts: 1500 | Registered: Dec 2005
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Useful link, Dalia. I am going to email, offering support for a petition to change the law.
Souri, your point on 'the west' is a fair one but listing each country in Europe is also tricky, in general debate. EEC countries have legislation to help deal with the abusers and harassers of women. My experience of Paris is different from yours (although mine is from the viewpoint of a tourist). French men are flirtatious but have never overstepped the mark, during my trips there. I can't imagine French police standing idly by, watching women get abused in front of them.
Queen Mojo's point that the law has to change is one I agree with. Men have to be educated to respect all women, not just the ones they share religious views with.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by QueenMojo: I don't think we have to make it a civilisation issue. Things like this happen in the west too. I happened to be on the Champs Elysees in Paris when the french team won a match and girls were also harrassed by hords of youg men. Still these youg men are free to have relationships and they do. About what happenen in Cairo the good thing is that people are shoked and that it caused all these reactions. That what we need : to make people realize it is a real concern, that eveybody has to fight it and that women don't have to feel guilty. It might be a good idea to support the ECWR campaign. The law has to change too, it's not acceptable that a file is open against a woman who wants to complaint about harassment
HOw can I go to this champ Elysee? Posts: 2728 | From: جمهورية مصر العربية | Registered: Sep 2006
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Batman, from small acorns, mighty oaks grow. This phrase should be particularly comforting to you.
What a defeatist attitude! Doing what you can, to try and change things is better than doing nothing. Some women above suggested a petition. I am happy to add a 'foreign' voice to it, no matter how small.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Auto Matic For The People: Some people( Westerners and Egyptians alike) do nothing but complain and in doing that they fail to recognize the causes of the problems and therefore offer no solutions. With their narrow minded view of Egypt, they think that they are correct and when someone disagrees with them they get the false impression that they're being attacked. [/QB]
What's wrong with venting???!!!! cant we just vent? How come we're not even allowed to vent? And when we, do people judge us & say that all we do is complian & do nothing.............
There are things that you need to take off your chest.
besides, by venting on this board we may all come up with solutions & ideas & learn more about the causes of our problems........ That's what forums are intended for........ to share our problems, vent, discuss, brain storm, get advice, learn & hopefully get to solve some problems
Yes....... we do fight & attack each other sometimes when there is a misunderstanding...... but we get back on track....... Dont forget that this is the Internet, you dont see faces, so normally misunderstandings take place....... if it was the real life it wouldnt be like that.
I am sure many people on this forum were less tolerant of others' opinions when they first started out...... but after a while you naturally become more tolerant especially when you come across different opinions & mentalities.
if you noticed....... I wrote on the thread that I started "explosive sexual attacks" let's rally......... & obviously nobody took me seriously but i was & am serious
yes let's rally..... if we can get a large number of women in Egypt, particularly Egyptian women to rally in the streets of cairo demanding to stop sexual harrassements & demanding punishment for those who do it...... we can do something
i just hope i dont get arressted now for suggesting this....... since the gov police the internet
Posts: 3128 | From: Not Your Heaven | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ChinderallaAngelTormentor CAT:
quote:Originally posted by Auto Matic For The People: Some people( Westerners and Egyptians alike) do nothing but complain and in doing that they fail to recognize the causes of the problems and therefore offer no solutions. With their narrow minded view of Egypt, they think that they are correct and when someone disagrees with them they get the false impression that they're being attacked.
What's wrong with venting???!!!! cant we just vent? How come we're not even allowed to vent? And when we, do people judge us & say that all we do is complian & do nothing.............
There are things that you need to take off your chest.
besides, by venting on this board we may all come up with solutions & ideas & learn more about the causes of our problems........ That's what forums are intended for........ to share our problems, vent, discuss, brain storm, get advice, learn & hopefully get to solve some problems
Yes....... we do fight & attack each other sometimes when there is a misunderstanding...... but we get back on track....... Dont forget that this is the Internet, you dont see faces, so normally misunderstandings take place....... if it was the real life it wouldnt be like that.
I am sure many people on this forum were less tolerant of others' opinions when they first started out...... but after a while you naturally become more tolerant especially when you come across different opinions & mentalities.
if you noticed....... I wrote on the thread that I started "explosive sexual attacks" let's rally......... & obviously nobody took me seriously but i was & am serious
yes let's rally..... if we can get a large number of women in Egypt, particularly Egyptian women to rally in the streets of cairo demanding to stop sexual harrassements & demanding punishment for those who do it...... we can do something
i just hope i dont get arressted now for suggesting this....... since the gov police the internet [/QB]
cinder berra7a ya ommy er7ammy nafsek shewayya.
petition or wl jinn al azraa2 cant do any any any thing
I like ur enthusiasm lol u r wasting ur time believge it or not Posts: 2728 | From: جمهورية مصر العربية | Registered: Sep 2006
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