quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife: Sure sure but her "marriage" is not recognized in her own native land - UK
But my marriage is recognised by the UK, that is how we got the visa.
Copy me the British Law in which it states it recognizes polygamy.
How on earth would I do this not being a lawyer or having access to law books. Why don't you quote me where the Embassy has disobeyed the law by giving us a visa. We got a visa, twice, from the British Embassy on the basis of our marriage. If you don't like that, tough, it is the truth.
Posts: 2791 | From: www.flatsinluxor.co.uk, Luxor, Egypt | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife: Sure sure but her "marriage" is not recognized in her own native land - UK
She is not "really" married.
She is living with a man who already has a wife.
Is ashkar Muslim?
This is not my businesss actually but don't portary Orfi Marriage as offical and Islamic.
It's NOT.
The problem is with You and your post.
1. You are a Muslim and you don't know what a URFI marriage is. 2. You are a Muslim and hate polygamy, something what you can't do because Allah authorized it. As a Muslimah you might not like the idea of polygamy..but you can't reject it..if you do it puts you in kufr. 3. Akshar is married Islamically and it is recognized in MANY parts of the world..it's just not recogizne in some parts of the world were the governments operate under the laws of kufr. 4. Akshar and may other Muslim women who co-wives are living with her legal husbands. She is one of the fortunate ones..There are many women here on this forum who can't even be with their husbands (not kicking them down) just stating a fact. We ask Allah to joint and unite them with their loves ones soon..Ameen. Can it get any clearer..GEEZE
You interpreted Islam the way it WORKS FOR YOU.
Honey you could brain wash Askhar Mrs 2nd wife, but you can't brain wash Allah neither me.
You have 0 argument that what you do is MORALLY RIGHT.
Was your 1st wife terminally ill?
How could you sleep with 2 women and claim this is justified? How?
You have no arguments. I would not want to be in her shoes. You would not be able to brain wash me that a woman is lucky to have a husband while he is having sex with 2 women because "Allah said so".
Posts: 1039 | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife: Sure sure but her "marriage" is not recognized in her own native land - UK
She is not "really" married.
She is living with a man who already has a wife.
Is ashkar Muslim?
This is not my businesss actually but don't portary Orfi Marriage as offical and Islamic.
It's NOT.
The problem is with You and your post.
1. You are a Muslim and you don't know what a URFI marriage is. 2. You are a Muslim and hate polygamy, something what you can't do because Allah authorized it. As a Muslimah you might not like the idea of polygamy..but you can't reject it..if you do it puts you in kufr. 3. Akshar is married Islamically and it is recognized in MANY parts of the world..it's just not recogizne in some parts of the world were the governments operate under the laws of kufr. 4. Akshar and may other Muslim women who co-wives are living with her legal husbands. She is one of the fortunate ones..There are many women here on this forum who can't even be with their husbands (not kicking them down) just stating a fact. We ask Allah to joint and unite them with their loves ones soon..Ameen. Can it get any clearer..GEEZE
You interpreted Islam the way it WORKS FOR YOU.
Honey you could brain wash Askhar Mrs 2nd wife, but you can't brain wash Allah neither me.
You have 0 argument that what you do is MORALLY RIGHT.
Was your 1st wife terminally ill?
How could you sleep with 2 women and claim this is justified? How?
You have no arguments. I would not want to be in her shoes. You would not be able to brain wash me that a woman is lucky to have a husband while he is having sex with 2 women because "Allah said so".
All of that and you said NOTHIN new..I'm done! Can someone else step in and help this Sister please? Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Ask me about Gays and Homosexaul marriages being recognized in the USA or how about Denmark..please I want to post it for you..pretty please I beg you!
What's so different about you sleeping with 2 women and 2 gays banging each other?
MORALLY? Let me hear you ?
Do you consider yourself in such case - promiscuous?
Is promiscuous behavior islamic?
Posts: 1039 | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Islamic interpretations ABOUND. So we should not be surprised at the many different interpretations of URFI or multiple wives.
Who is to say that this scholar or this teacher is right or wrong? who is to say this is not what the Qur'an meant... THE so called ULAMA'A in the world of Islam do not even agree, and contradict each other on so many issues..
So live your Islam as your heart tells you!
Personally I was taught that taking a second wife was in 'extreme' circumstances. I was taught that it was extremely, even impossible to be 'just' towards more than one wife. I was taught that a URFI marriage is not Islamic and not acceptable in respectable families. But to each their own. Live and let live.
My interpretation, yours, theirs, the Ulama'a other Muslims, scholars, teachers are just that: interpretations. If we trust a Mufti or a scholar or a teacher that taught us, and we feel great about it in our heart, and we feel that it is what our inner feelings believe to be the correct interpretation of the Qur'an or a hadith, that is what counts IMO.
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quote:Originally posted by Almaz.: Islamic interpretations ABOUND. So we should not be surprised at the many different interpretations of URFI or multiple wives.
Who is to say that this scholar or this teacher is right or wrong? who is to say this is not what the Qur'an meant... THE so called ULAMA'A in the world of Islam do not even agree, and contradict each other on so many issues..
So live your Islam as your heart tells you!
You don't have to interpret anything. Look at the ACTIONS of the Prophet Muhammad (may the please and blessing of Allah be upon him). Look at the ACTIONS of his righteous Companions (may Allah be please with them). Look at their marriages and then you will have the answer to your question about polygamy.
Live your Islaam like they lived the Islam taught to them by their Allamah Mutfi Shaykh Muhammah Ibn Abullah i.e. Prophet Muhammad (may the peace and blessing of Allah be upon him). Why you ask? Because Allah said in the Quran: Allah is pleased with them and they are please with Allah..PERIOD
Now interpret that!
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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Eid Mubarak Almaz Taqaballahu wa mina wa minkum. You should say you're going to enjoy your's INSHAA ALLAH.
-------------------- 'Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "Allah's Apostle (صلى الله عليه و سلم) took hold of my shoulder and said, "Be in this world as if you were a stranger or a traveller." Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: So what was the excuse that Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman had multiple wives radiallahu anhuma..oh yes..the Prophet (may Allah be pleased with him) had 11 wives many of them at the same time!
And when was this? Hm let me remember, in the year of 1456 A.D when people thought that Earth is in the shape of square?
GO WITH THE TIME is pure guideline from Quran which means, adjust accordingly.
Now if you haven;t had a spoon 5000 years ago and now you do have it, some people will still eat from the hand, but Quran tells you - eat with spoon.
It's COMMON SENSE, why are you lucking it? Seriously?
You have 0 justification for sleeping with 2 women. Islamically, morally, in all aspects. It's 2007 not 1465 B.C.
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Eid Mubarak Almaz Taqaballahu wa mina wa minkum. You should say you're going to enjoy your's INSHAA ALLAH.
Dear sands, it goes without saying it out loud because it is in my heart, and I do NOT need to SHOW off on a forum or elsewhere, that I believe in Masheyet Allah, since I know it, am sure of it, and el a3malon bel neyat ya brother!And whether i say it, know it, believe it, act upon it or not is only between ME and GOD. Salam!
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Eid Mubarak Almaz Taqaballahu wa mina wa minkum. You should say you're going to enjoy your's INSHAA ALLAH.
Dear sands, it goes without saying it out loud because it is in my heart, and I do NOT need to SHOW off on a forum or elsewhere, that I believe in Masheyet Allah, since I know it, am sure of it is, and el a3malon bel neyat ya brother! Salam!
Do you remember the ayat in the Quran when the people came to the Prophet (may the peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) and ask about the 4 questions (not going to elaborate)? He (may the peace and blessings of Allah said that I will give you the answer tomorrow. He didn't say Inshaa Allah I will give you the answer tomorrow.
Well tomorrow came and the revelation didn't come, and it didnt come the next day and so forth. Later it was revealed to him (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) that because he did not say "Insha Allah" i.e. he was so sure that Allah would send the revelation, Allah witheld the revelation from him to teach and show the Messenger (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) that he must always be conscience of Allah and depend upon Allah.
If you want the exact daleel let me know I will post it.
Yeah yeah I knew that would ruffle your feather.. Have a wonderful day (Inshaa Allah) Almaz..I really know how to get to you..LOL..and you let me. Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: So what was the excuse that Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman had multiple wives radiallahu anhuma..oh yes..the Prophet (may Allah be pleased with him) had 11 wives many of them at the same time!
And when was this? Hm let me remember, in the year of 1456 A.D when people thought that Earth is in the shape of square?
GO WITH THE TIME is pure guideline from Quran which means, adjust accordingly.
Now if you haven;t had a spoon 5000 years ago and now you do have it, some people will still eat from the hand, but Quran tells you - eat with spoon.
It's COMMON SENSE, why are you lucking it? Seriously?
You have 0 justification for sleeping with 2 women? ZERO. Islamically, morally, in all aspects. It's 2007 not 1465 B.C.
So your Islam allows you to pick and chose from the Koran and the life of the Prophet. Are you going to be like some Christians who do this and have started allowing gay priests. Surely one of the major points about Islam and why you should read the Koran in the original Arabic was to stop it being corrupted like Christianity. I do not think you are a good ambassodor for Islam
Posts: 2791 | From: www.flatsinluxor.co.uk, Luxor, Egypt | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
quote:Originally posted by Almaz.:
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Eid Mubarak Almaz Taqaballahu wa mina wa minkum. You should say you're going to enjoy your's INSHAA ALLAH.
Dear sands, it goes without saying it out loud because it is in my heart, and I do NOT need to SHOW off on a forum or elsewhere, that I believe in Masheyet Allah, since I know it, am sure of it is, and el a3malon bel neyat ya brother! Salam!
Do you remember the ayat in the Quran when the people came to the Prophet (may the peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) and ask about the 4 questions (not going to elaborate)? He (may the peace and blessings of Allah said that I will give you the answer tomorrow. He didn't say Inshaa Allah I will give you the answer tomorrow.
Well tomorrow came and the revelation didn't come, and it didnt come the next day and so forth. Later it was revealed to him (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) that because he did not say "Insha Allah" i.e. he was so sure that Allah would send the revelation, Allah witheld the revelation from him to teach and show the Messenger (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) that he must always be conscience of Allah and depend upon Allah.
If you want the exact daleel let me know I will post it.
Yeah yeah I knew that would ruffle your feather.. Have a wonderful day (Inshaa Allah) Almaz..I really know how to get to you..LOL..and you let me.
of course I let you 'get to me' sands...b mazagy ya brother! And saying the words I want to say out loud, or in my own mind is my biz ya sands..and no one can force me to write or say out loud anything at all ya sands. What I want and what I don't want to say or to write dear sands is between GOD and ME and ME and GOD. Posts: 919 | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: So what was the excuse that Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman had multiple wives radiallahu anhuma..oh yes..the Prophet (may Allah be pleased with him) had 11 wives many of them at the same time!
And when was this? Hm let me remember, in the year of 1456 A.D when people thought that Earth is in the shape of square?
GO WITH THE TIME is pure guideline from Quran which means, adjust accordingly.
Now if you haven;t had a spoon 5000 years ago and now you do have it, some people will still eat from the hand, but Quran tells you - eat with spoon.
It's COMMON SENSE, why are you lucking it? Seriously?
You have 0 justification for sleeping with 2 women? ZERO. Islamically, morally, in all aspects. It's 2007 not 1465 B.C.
So your Islam allows you to pick and chose from the Koran and the life of the Prophet. Are you going to be like some Christians who do this and have started allowing gay priests. Surely one of the major points about Islam and why you should read the Koran in the original Arabic was to stop it being corrupted like Christianity. I do not think you are a good ambassodor for Islam
Akshar read my last post concering this person..leave them alone..it's of no use.
You are on a whole different level then they are and for God sakes they're Muslim (that scares me). However, I understand the reason why the religon is in the shape that is it in because of individuals who think like this.
Again no need for you to justify your marriage to ANYONE it speaks for itself.
Those that don't get it..may never get it. That's their problem not your. They are the ones who have to live with themselves. I am sure you sleep very comfortably at night Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
quote:Originally posted by Almaz.:
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Eid Mubarak Almaz Taqaballahu wa mina wa minkum. You should say you're going to enjoy your's INSHAA ALLAH.
Dear sands, it goes without saying it out loud because it is in my heart, and I do NOT need to SHOW off on a forum or elsewhere, that I believe in Masheyet Allah, since I know it, am sure of it is, and el a3malon bel neyat ya brother! Salam!
Do you remember the ayat in the Quran when the people came to the Prophet (may the peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) and ask about the 4 questions (not going to elaborate)? He (may the peace and blessings of Allah said that I will give you the answer tomorrow. He didn't say Inshaa Allah I will give you the answer tomorrow.
Well tomorrow came and the revelation didn't come, and it didnt come the next day and so forth. Later it was revealed to him (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) that because he did not say "Insha Allah" i.e. he was so sure that Allah would send the revelation, Allah witheld the revelation from him to teach and show the Messenger (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) that he must always be conscience of Allah and depend upon Allah.
If you want the exact daleel let me know I will post it.
Yeah yeah I knew that would ruffle your feather.. Have a wonderful day (Inshaa Allah) Almaz..I really know how to get to you..LOL..and you let me.
of course I let you 'get to me' sands...b mazagy ya brother! And saying the words I want to say out loud, or in my own mind is my biz ya sands..and no one can force me to write or say out loud anything at all ya sands. What I want and what I don't want to say or to write dear sands is between GOD and ME and ME and GOD.
I see you don't want the daleel..okay..cheers!
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
I was almost hooked until he mention something about bang two women..
He gave himself way there..I'm almost sure that Egyptian women dont talk like that..and Allah knows best.
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
My goodness, these posts have been very interesting. Things in life are certainly complicated for everyone, not only me it. I have learned lots in the last number of posts alhamduillah.
For me I am getting some clarity about choices available and what and what is not recognized where.
First I believe Mahmoud and I love each other, we have for more than 40 years. There are circumstances in life, that sometimes make our wishes imposible at the time, and maybe sometimes ever possible.
We didn't get married to each other as young people because my father wouldn't allow it and I was young and not strong enough to get married against his wishes. Also at the time Mahmoud said to me that his heart is broken now but that he is not wanting me to lose my parents because then he thinks I will not be happy with him and will leave him and maybe babies by then as well because I won't be happy for long with no parents and brothers and sisters, cousins. He said our loved would cloud over in my eyes and I would leave him eventually and then he really can't live without me and without inshalallah the babies we would have and love together. So I let him go. He still gave me time to see if I could get my Dad to back down, more than a year. When my Dad stil against everything, only then did Mahmoud go to marry in Egypt.
Lots of things happen in meantime over many years. We lose being in touch and even though Mahmoud comes back to US for many years without his wife to work we are not in touch. For me I am married 2 times, once a widow, then in a marriage that isn't working so well, but that is life. After 9/11 I began to look at Islam. I would hear how all Muslims are not to be trusted and Islam is evil, I'm sure you know what I am saying. At the time was thinking, well good thing I never married Mahmound, evil people and maybe he would drag me back to a bad country where they would hit me and steal my babies like in the Sally Fields movie, Not Without My Daughter. Then I was thinking, come on now, everything I am hearing is NOT NOT NOT like the beautiful young man who I loved. He was good and kind and patient, not some crazy terrorist. He told me to respect my parents even if I don't agree with them, they are my parents. He has wisdom to know I will not be happy in a foreign country with no parents or other relatives. Yes back then I was even thinking of moving to Egypt for him. Anyway to make a long story short, I stated to look at Islam and reverted after lots of consideration, this was not a light step for me to do.
For last 5 years Mahmoud and me have been in touch first just like friends, but I found my feelings never went away and he feels the same thing. Still we are not free and just in touch and getting together occasionally as we are in different states. Nothing indecent and no adultry but great love is still there.
After I revert to Islam 5 years ago we met again at Islamic conference in US, not even in my state and not planned. I am walking in the conference and almost walked right into him. He recognized me and he is changed physically so much I almost didn't know him, no hair now, lots more pounds, you know what time can do. Then he says my name and I heard his voice. This stranger in front of me is my Mahmoud!!
btw friends we have from the communuty, we were both involved in national charity project, and would see each other at these meetings, do not know about our past. I am hearing about his wife from these friends and I am just listening, I don't say anything about her. I know from them though, what they say, confirms what he says to me. They know both Mahmoud and his wife. You probably know Egyptians like to talk. From everyone I am hearing that they don't get along, only together for the children and for keeping face,appearances. Also hearing that his wife is very happy he is in the US because she has her own life and only has to visit him sometimes and then she mostly shops and isn't around him.
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: I was almost hooked until he mention something about bang two women..
He gave himself way there..I'm almost sure that Egyptian women dont talk like that..and Allah knows best.
Maybe she watched too many American porn flicks! No wonder that she believes that all American dudes are perverts!!!! Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Last year Mahmoud went back to Egypt to retire. Things have been very bad with him and his wife only fighting and big unhappiness there. Even grown up children are pulled into the mess. He says he wants to marry me and loves me as always but if he leaves he will lose all family, just like he thought I will lose all family 40 years ago. Now he has real children 4 grown children and says his unmarried daughter who is 30 just finished PhD will not be able to find a decent husband if he leaves. He says all his family and her family will hate him and say he is the bad guy. He thinks his kids will never talk to him again and will always be on their mother’s side. He will lose his elderly parents, who will be shamed, his brothers and sisters, his cousins, his kids and all her relatives also. There is no problem for money here. Everybody is fine with money, no financial hardship anywhere, even if he divorces. I don’t want to take him from his family or children and also we love each other very much. I will not commit adultery even though I want to be with him and I love him. I wonder if Urfi marriage may be the answer. Then he can come to the states for a couple of months each year and we can be together. I know I will first have to get a divorce here in the states. My state won’t recognize co marriages, but if it is recognized in Islam and for me if it is recognized in Islamic countries, especially Saudi, then it is recognized by Islam, then that maybe a compromise solution for us. We can be together a couple of months a year, since he still travels for business a little bit, even though retired mostly. He has his own business, quite successful. He can still have his children, his parents, and relatives. Also both of us could have some happiness together that was taken away for such a long time.
quote:Originally posted by cynthiabates: First I believe Mahmoud and I love each other, we have for more than 40 years. We didn't get married to each other as young people because my father wouldn't allow it and I was young and not strong enough to get married against his wishes. Also at the time Mahmoud said to me that his heart is broken now but that he is not wanting me to lose my parents because then he thinks I will not be happy with him and will leave him and maybe babies by then as well because I won't be happy for long with no parents and brothers and sisters, cousins.
When you are knowing him for over 40 years,you must be far over 50. And still thinking about futurious babies??? I beg your pardon, but how is that possible???
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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LOL yes I am over 50 for sure. No more babies for me inshalallah, not being the wife if Ibrahim!! No the babies I was talking about were if we got married 40 years ago, then I lost my family, had babies and then became unahappy and left him. What would happen to those children, the possible children from long ago. Not now.
posted
Cynthia, please, if he feels he can't leave his family for you then what you are waiting for? You need to go on with your own life and don't even think of becoming his co-wife etc. Seriously would you wanna share a man with another woman? A man who's already married? Would you be satisfied with situation for (who knows) how many years? Please straighten out your own marriage right now and keep a positive approach to things. Be thankful for what you have in him, a close friend for such a long time. You might not wish for more even if you so desperately want to.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
it's a big decision, he is my most close friend in the world. I have two minds that includes to have the most we could have even if not everything or to give up and say what is past is past. Point is though there is now and for who knows how long, as we are not young or especially healthy. Maybe we met at the conference to give us a second chance that was taken away so long ago. Our feelings have to mean something, they have lasted more than 40 years. We both have had marriage with others, children with others, but we still love each other. We both have had businesses that are successful and provide well for everyone so no one is going to suffer poverty or want. I am still co owner with my son of my deceased husband's business and it is thriving. I don't need a dime from Mahmoud. He is retired but still has business interests to travel to US and other Arab nations. If I am a co wife then at least we can have some time together that isn't haram and some happiness and he still has his children. His wife dosn't like him anyway but is not for divorce because it looks bad. There is no interest in Mahmoud for probably 20 years where she has lived mostly alone anyway, and quite happlily without him from what friends say who know her. Again I just listen and don't say anything about her and our mutual friends don't know about Mahmoud and me.
posted
Cynthia, my objective advice is: change your marriage status first, and then take a deep breath, and see if you feel the same about being a 'secret' second wife.
If you do, know that it is not Islamic - as far as I understand Islam - A secret marriage, goes under the umbrella of shame. A marriage in Islam needs to be made public.
But, you are both adults and more than capable to take a decision as I said at the beginning. Maybe once you are free to marry, he might consider to tell the world he will marry you?
As per his family, Mahmoud will do what his conscience leads him to do.
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I agree with Almaz, you need to sort out your own marital situation first, because although you have said that you have separated due to Islam, the way you describe that you are living is not Islamic.
Once that is settled then, if he wants to marry you he can come and ask - either to be a co-wife or if he decides to divorce, as an only wife - as it is forbidden for a Muslim man to ask a married woman or one who is engaged to be married to marry him.
You seem to be getting the Urfi/Islamic marriage confused with one that is registered. It would have to be registered as a civil marriage here in Egypt for it to be recognized as a marriage in Egypt or in Saudi or anywhere else. To do that you would have to come here to Egypt and perform a civil marriage. His wife would then be legally informed and you would be entitled to a share of his estate on his death.
If you just did an Urfi/Islamic marriage, you would only be married in the eyes of Allah, and would receive no support from the courts in case of problems and no inheritance. Although a first wife doesn't have to know about a second marriage Islamically, she would inevitably find out, especially if you have mutual Egyptian friends, and you would have to cope with it at some point. If she doesn't want a divorce due to the shame, she will also not want a co-wife for the same reason, and along with the family may put pressure on him to divorce you, even if it is just an Islamic marriage.
In any case, he should be the one to take the lead in this as it sounds as if the ramifications for him are going to be the strongest. The other thing is that he is presumably older than you, and it would get more difficult as time goes on for him to travel.
You also said at the beginning that one of the reasons that he didn't want to marry you was that his wife had spent all his money and that he didn't have any left to support you. This is something very important to a good Egyptian man, as they are the ones who are the providers and feel very uncomfortable at taking money from/living off a woman.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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I totally understand your dilemma and understand how you are feeling. It's tough to love someone and the circumstances don't allow you to be together like you want. If it means anything, I believe what he says to you. I agree with some of the others that you need to take care of your situation first before considering the next step.
We never know why things happen the way they do and as we get older, we begin to realize time is too short to live the rest of our life in misery or not being happy. It's hard to leave a situation when we are older because we work hard all of our lives to obtain the financial security we now have. It's also tough because we DO care what our family and friends think of our decisions. In the end though if the situation presented itself and I was sure that I would be happy with someone else, I would probably decide to take the chance. It would be nice if Mahmoud was willing to make the sacrifice you are willing to make.
I wish you the best.
Posts: 370 | From: Other side of reality | Registered: Dec 2006
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Thanks to everyone who makes suggestions. I only care about being married in the eyes of Allah, the rest would be nice, but not essential to me. As for money, support, inheritance and so on, that isn't important to me either as I have my own finances and don't need a dime from Mahmoud, not a even a penny. I think his first wife and his children should have whatever inheritance there would be. His wife has spent a good deal of his money, but they are still very well settled in financial matters. Mahmoud's business and investments are still ok as well. He is not sure that he could give me the life I am used to in the states however that is over concern. I am more than fine in that regard and have enough money that even if he had no money at all I would be fine and he would be fine with me also. The main concern for me is that he not lose his children and that we can find some happiness together if possible. I was just not certain about some customs and mores in Egypt to assess independently what he has been telling me about what the situation is in Egypt. He is a big worrier so I wanted to get some objective opinions. Everyone has been very helpful, even if sometimes a little tough. Inshaallah things will work out.
posted
Btw I agree it is true that as we get older we see our mortality and start to think about why have we only looked after everyone else during our life. Maybe it's time to look after ourselves. I am probably older than everyone, or at least most people on this forum, so I do know at least here what I am talking about. I hope you all find a balance of looking after everyone else and doing some things for your own happiness as well. I always lived before like everyone else matters except for me. That now has grown very thin.
posted
I didn`t understand that you should go to Egypt...I think it`s far more difficult there, and I think people wouldn`t respect you when this should become public, even as a second wife. They would see you as the reason why, they would see Mahmoud as a weak man who captured for money,for a Western woman, not for the love of his life! You would be amazed if you should know how people think and talk and how much they actually know about the husbands respectively wifes in marriages that are not good. It`s like these people are obligated to give full exploination about their failed marriage...its weird. Minding your own business is a new phenomon in Egypt ! And how Allah should think about it; well, the religion is quite tolerant and respectful, but it does not allow hurting other people. And there are people going to get hurt: his first wife, his children, his family, you and him. I think it should be more in the spirit of the reigion if all who are concerned should get the opportunity to get an open and honest exploination so that they could understand the reason why. If they do, there will be no objections anymore. But, I don`t think a man would do this. It should mean that he voluntairy has to give up his image, tell honestly to everybody: I am not the man you thought I was. I married a woman 40 years ago, and I never loved her. I don`t deserve the respect you gave me.... He has been honest about it, told you it should be impossible, but not in a way that has been clear enough. If he should be this brave, to tell his wife and children the truth about the man he is, then it would give a religious reason to be together.(After you devorced, of course, because thats also an example as a marriage that is not real) In fact you`re both in a marriage that is not real, and people who are involved should have to right to know.This honesty takes courage to admit, and I think religion is also about this. Maybe you can do that, but I don`t think he will...
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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Newcomer - 'Although a first wife doesn't have to know about a second marriage Islamically, she would inevitably find out'
How can this be right, surely if its kept a secret then both women are not being treated equally, one will know and the other will not. also when he is asked 'where are you going?' 'where have you been?' what does he say if lying is haram?
Cynthia, my opinion, for what its worth, is that you should get a divorce and wait for him to ask you to be a second wife, personally I feel it is only respectful to leave the decision to him, he must know how you feel anyway. I think he should talk it over with his first wife and everything should be out in the open as i said before, then whatever happens is no one elses business but you three, and it will be islamic. I dont think any of this is your decision to make, i'm sorry, i think his marriage is his and his wife's business.
I hope that wasn't harsh.
Posts: 644 | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Wanderer: Newcomer - 'Although a first wife doesn't have to know about a second marriage Islamically, she would inevitably find out'
How can this be right, surely if its kept a secret then both women are not being treated equally, one will know and the other will not. also when he is asked 'where are you going?' 'where have you been?' what does he say if lying is haram?
Assalamu alaykum Wanderer!
According to Islamic law, it isn't a requirement for a wife to be informed if her husband marries a subsequent wife, although some countries like Egypt have included it in their law. So say, for example, a man was married to a very unreasonable, unbalanced woman, he could decide that his marriage was intolerable and wanted to divorce, but if he feels responsible for his wife and his family and doesn't want to break it up, he may still stay married to her and support the family, and yet also marry someone else without telling her, if he thinks that she will do things that will harm the family. In this way, Islamic law is acknowledging the husband as the one responsible for making the final decisions about what is best for the family.
For this to work, and for the new wife to be treated equally, presumably the husband would have to be travelling on a regular basis for work, for example. It wouldn't work otherwise, unless the new wife agreed to relinquish some of her rights to her nights with her husband. As you say, in general lying is forbidden in Islam and honesty is a highly valued characteristic, but there is the Hadith that says: Asma’ bint Yazeed said: “The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said: ‘Lying is not permitted except in three cases: a man’s speaking to his wife to make her happy; lying at times of war; and lying in order to reconcile between people.’” (Reported by al-Tirmidhi, 1862; he said: it is a hasan hadeeth. See also Saheeh Muslim, 4717)
Although, I feel that honesty is important between a married couple and that if one of the partners finds out that the other has lied it breaks the trust between a couple and can have very negative effects on a family, in some cases I can see that it could be necessary to keep a family together for a greater long-term benefit. And this could be one of the cases I feel, if, and only if, the reason for it being done was that the first wife is totally unreasonable, to the level of being unstable.
However, whether or not the first wife is informed, the new marriage would have to be announced to the people who live around the new wife, so that she would be acknowledged as a married woman. And depending on the community they live in, this news could very well get back to the first wife, with very negative effects on both marriages.
The equality in treatment is not in the fact that each wife knows the same as the other or is told exactly the same as the other or has to be treated in exactly the same way as the other, as relationships between people differ according to their individual natures...even a mother treating he children equally will not do or say the same thing to each child, but will treat them according to their natures, but she will divide her time and her money between them equally. In the same way, when it talks about equality of treatment of co-wives, it is talking about such things as time, nights, financial support, housing, travelling, rather than saying that if a husband says or does something with one that he is obliged to do it with the other.
I personally feel that as a first wife I would want to know if my husband intended to marry someone else and as a subsequent wife I would not want to be in the position of being married to a man whose other wife didn't know about me. But there are some women who feel differently.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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thank you for the explanation, its a very grey area then isn't it, which I can see could be open to many interpretations and even abuse. If the man is the one to decide whether it is in the first wife's best interest then he's not exactly going to be unbiased is he?
I can see many men declaring that their wife is too unbalanced to know, but then I suppose God knows what is true. Posts: 644 | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Yep, in the end, the guidelines are there and it is up to us to follow them as fairly and wisely as we can, knowing that Allah is Just, sees all, and will be the final arbiter.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
If a woman indeed should be to unbalanced to know the truth about her husband ( how dubious this exploination can be ) she never can be protected for getting this information from others, and she obviously will be! Whatever will happen then, we must not forget this is HIS responsebility ! I know some examples, and I can assure you, how "unbalanced" the women might be in the eyes of her husband, the rate of hurt goes 10 times harder as it should be when he should have been honest about his own personality. Making a decision to be honest about yourself, and show yourself in a negative way to the one(s) near, is not often chosed... But in all cases, it is HIS responsebility whatever the results might be...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
What if the husband is unbalanced and unreasonable? Does the wife get the same privilege?
Sounds like a justification for an affair to me. Quite frankly it's ridiculous. Common sense says if the other doesn't know that their spouse is bedding someone else, then it is cheating.
I can't believe some of this stuff I am reading here. It is like people are putting the man at the level with God. Like the man is altruistic and always makes the good and right decision. He is just a man. If he wants an affair don't sit there and condone it by saying his wife is messed up so he has justification.
Maybe one reason to keep the sexes separated is so the woman can be brainwashed to believe that men are so holy and pure. Here is an in site...they commit sin and make bad decisions too. And the ones who act holier than thou are the biggest sinners. They have to boast their holiness in front of man to conceal their sinful nature. The catch, God sees the heart.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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posted
What I have been seeing here is that Islam is just as open to interpretation as Christianity is. Apparently Islam can be interpreted to have just about anything acceptable, from murder to adultery.
-------------------- "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." (Sign hanging in Einstein's office at Princeton) Leap and the Net will Appear. Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: What if the husband is unbalanced and unreasonable? Does the wife get the same privilege?
The catch, God sees the heart.
If the husband is unbalanced, the wife can ask for a divorce, but as she doesn't have to support her husband financially the effect of her getting a divorce from him is different from a husband divorcing a wife who may have stayed at home to raise their children and not have current work skills to be able to support herself.
And yes, there are many fringe elements of Islam that are open to interpretation, but there are far more issues that are core issues that are agreed upon, but sadly those are not the ones people focus on, they tend to want to discuss the fringe elements more.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: What if the husband is unbalanced and unreasonable? Does the wife get the same privilege?
The catch, God sees the heart.
If the husband is unbalanced, the wife can ask for a divorce, but as she doesn't have to support her husband financially the effect of her getting a divorce from him is different from a husband divorcing a wife who may have stayed at home to raise their children and not have current work skills to be able to support herself.
Does this seem fair to you?
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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posted
So the woman is then trapped, even if her husband is abusive, because she can't support herself?
I though Islam is suppose to be fair to woman.
-------------------- "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." (Sign hanging in Einstein's office at Princeton) Leap and the Net will Appear. Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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posted
If Islam was carried out in the way it was prescribed, if a woman is divorced she would then be supported financially by the male members of her family, or, failing that, the state. So no, she wouldn't be trapped.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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In this case she is still dependent on the men. So no it is not fair.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:So say, for example, a man was married to a very unreasonable, unbalanced woman, he could decide that his marriage was intolerable and wanted to divorce, but if he feels responsible for his wife and his family and doesn't want to break it up, he may still stay married to her and support the family, and yet also marry someone else without telling her, if he thinks that she will do things that will harm the family.
You are simply justifying lying and adultery. There is no other way to view it.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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posted
This is where the dichotomy comes between what was originally revealed in Islam and the way it is practised today. Many of the current practices contradict the religion and it is no longer practised as a whole.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
You know its not fair and yet you continue to justify it, why?
Another inconsistency that I see is that Muslims are allowed up to 4 wives. Mohammad had 13.
-------------------- "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." (Sign hanging in Einstein's office at Princeton) Leap and the Net will Appear. Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:So say, for example, a man was married to a very unreasonable, unbalanced woman, he could decide that his marriage was intolerable and wanted to divorce, but if he feels responsible for his wife and his family and doesn't want to break it up, he may still stay married to her and support the family, and yet also marry someone else without telling her, if he thinks that she will do things that will harm the family.
You are simply justifying lying and adultery. There is no other way to view it.
Yes there is....that it is making the stability of the family unit a priority and the man responsible for the support of his family, not just by sending maintenance and child support to a wife he no longer has a full marriage with, but also by continuing to give them practical support too.
Which seems preferable to the possible alternative, that when a man gets fed up of his wife he walks out and leaves the state to try and get the financial support out of him if he can be located, leaving a woman to try to look for a job in a market she may have left many years ago. or he goes out and has affairs behind his wife's back with a woman he takes no responsibility for.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: You know its not fair and yet you continue to justify it, why?
Another inconsistency that I see is that Muslims are allowed up to 4 wives. Mohammad had 13.
I know what is not fair? The way people don't practice Islam or that Islam recognizes inherent differences between men and women, rich and poor, intelligent and not intelligent people, good and bad people? The world is not "fair" in that all people don't have aren't created the same, the challenge is to recognize this and to manage what you have in the best way possible, and use the special skills and talents you have to benefit others, rather than sitting around complaining that it isn't fair that you aren't like/don't have the same as someone else.
It is written in the Qur'an that Muhammed (peace be upon him) was given a special dispensation to have more than 4 wives, because there were both social and political reasons for his marriages.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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