quote:Originally posted by newcomer: If Islam was carried out in the way it was prescribed, if a woman is divorced she would then be supported financially by the male members of her family, or, failing that, the state. So no, she wouldn't be trapped.
In high income families, most fathers, brothers or uncles take care of their daughters, sisters etc. if they need financial support, but in low income family, they can barely take care of themselves.
The State - pays what we call 'mallaleem', barely enough for bread and beans, UNFORTUNATELY.
Thus, women that have no financial means of their own, stay in marriages that are dead or accept second wives etc..to survive.
And here, readers can maybe understand why many Egyptian families demand certain 'financial' conditions/protection before accepting the marriage of a daughter. Some of course go totally crazy with their demands.
If Islam was carried the original way then, men would not run around getting second and third wives without the exact conditions stated very clearly in the Qur'an, and women would not accept to marry anyone just to be married, and fathers would not 'sell' the daughters to the highest bidder etc....etc...
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posted
If he were putting the stability of the family first, he would NOT secretly bed another woman. No matter what you call it an affair or a secrete marriage, it is the same thing. And a lie is a lie.
The word water does not quench your thirst.
You are exploiting words.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: If he were putting the stability of the family first, he would NOT secretly bed another woman. No matter what you call it an affair or a secrete marriage, it is the same thing.
I totally agree. Just because it's been made religiously and legally acceptable by some people doesn't mean it's morally right.
I've never understood why people so often compare the situation of a husband taking a second wife and a man having an affair and then come to the conclusion that the former is much better than the latter. To me it's exactly the same. At least a man having an affair behind his wife's back usually doesn't believe that he's doing the right thing whereas many men who take on a second wife feel they are doing something morally and religiously acceptable. To me, that's despicable, and I wouldn't have the slightest bit of respect for such a person. Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: You know its not fair and yet you continue to justify it, why?
Another inconsistency that I see is that Muslims are allowed up to 4 wives. Mohammad had 13.
I know what is not fair? The way people don't practice Islam or that Islam recognizes inherent differences between men and women, rich and poor, intelligent and not intelligent people, good and bad people? The world is not "fair" in that all people don't have aren't created the same, the challenge is to recognize this and to manage what you have in the best way possible, and use the special skills and talents you have to benefit others, rather than sitting around complaining that it isn't fair that you aren't like/don't have the same as someone else.
It is written in the Qur'an that Muhammed (peace be upon him) was given a special dispensation to have more than 4 wives, because there were both social and political reasons for his marriages.
Then don't claim that Islam is fair to woman. Simply say:
1. Islam is not fair to woman. 2. Women are second class citizens in Islam. 3. In Islam, Woman do not have the same right to happiness that men do.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: If he were putting the stability of the family first, he would NOT secretly bed another woman. No matter what you call it an affair or a secrete marriage, it is the same thing.
I totally agree. Just because it's been made religiously and legally acceptable by some people doesn't mean it's morally right.
I've never understood why people so often compare the situation of a husband taking a second wife and a man having an affair and then come to the conclusion that the former is much better than the latter. To me it's exactly the same. At least a man having an affair behind his wife's back usually doesn't believe that he's doing the right thing whereas many men who take on a second wife feel they are doing something morally and religiously acceptable. To me, that's despicable, and I wouldn't have the slightest bit of respect for such a person.
Again if the Qur'an was followed the 'correct' way there would NOT be such events. Please understand that the permission allowing more than a wife comes with specific conditions. But of course the wonderful people that choose to interpret the way it suits them, will disagree.
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quote:Originally posted by Almaz.: Please understand that the permission allowing more than a wife comes with specific conditions. But of course the wonderful people that choose to interpret the way it suits them will disagree.
Almaz, I've researched the issue extensively, and I personally do not believe that the Qur'an gives men the permission to take on a second, third or fourth wife just because they feel the need for variety, more sex, a younger wife, more children etc. And I don't believe it's a *right* for men either.
But of course, since most interpretations have been done mostly by men (and, I might add, mostly by men from very patriarchal cultures), I'm not surprised at current interpretations and practice.
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quote:Originally posted by Almaz.: Please understand that the permission allowing more than a wife comes with specific conditions. But of course the wonderful people that choose to interpret the way it suits them will disagree.
Almaz, I've researched the issue extensively, and I personally do not believe that the Qur'an gives men the permission to take on a second, third or fourth wife just because they feel the need for variety, more sex, a younger wife, more children etc. And I don't believe it's a *right* for men either.
But of course, since most interpretations have been done mostly by men (and, I might add, mostly by men from very patriarchal cultures), I'm not surprised at current interpretations and practice.
That is exactly what I have been saying all along on other posts and threads but some people 'insisted' it was a right when I stated it was a permission with conditions. Thanks for your post! At least some people research and do not just believe blindly some interpretations or just the beginning of a sentence or a verse!
My grand parents are in their late seventies and they are amazed at these interpretations! They don't comprehend what happened to Islam today!!!
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posted
It seems that one of the conditions is for the man to have money. Does anyone else see the implication here? He has to be able to afford his purchase.
The woman in this light is not his partner or help mate but his property.
I will not criticize if all parties are in full agreement of a polygamy lifestyle. That is their choice.
What newcomer is trying to do is justify lying and an affair.
A Muslim man once told me: "unfortunately in our society women are kept as pets"
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posted
I have been wondering if FGM is practiced to keep the woman passive and accepting of such abuse from men. Does anyone have insite to this?
-------------------- "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." (Sign hanging in Einstein's office at Princeton) Leap and the Net will Appear. Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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What newcomer is trying to do is justify lying and an affair.
Look, I don't like polygamy, either, but nothing Newcomer is saying is justifying lying and affairs.
But for the past 30 years *maybe*, women have *always* been reliant on men and their money/protection. Now we can work and have our own money. If a marriage is bad, we can leave.
And a cool thing about Islam -- a woman's money is her own.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by newcomer: According to Islamic law, it isn't a requirement for a wife to be informed if her husband marries a subsequent wife, although some countries like Egypt have included it in their law. So say, for example, a man was married to a very unreasonable, unbalanced woman, he could decide that his marriage was intolerable and wanted to divorce, but if he feels responsible for his wife and his family and doesn't want to break it up, he may still stay married to her and support the family, and yet also marry someone else without telling her, if he thinks that she will do things that will harm the family. In this way, Islamic law is acknowledging the husband as the one responsible for making the final decisions about what is best for the family.
But who decides when a woman would be "unreasonable" and "unbalanced"? I think this is something that can be very, very easily abused, especially in a culture / religion that tends to claim women are inferior to men / too emotional / not rational enough etc. anyway. So the husband could simply declare any behaviour that he doesn't like as "destructive" or "unbalanced" and claim he needs to marry another wife.
What would keep a man from declaring his wife unbalanced or insane, simply because he got tired of her, wants sex with someone else or any other reason? Since men are only human too and many tend to act selfish and not just, this is giving them far too much power imo.
Btw, this reminds me of what happened in Europe many, many years ago. If a woman was too independent, dared to think for herself, rebel against her husband or society she would run the risk of being declared "insane" or "hysterical" and the husband was basically free to do with her whatever he wished. It was no rare occurence that those women got simply locked up in an asylum or another institution.
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: It seems that one of the conditions is for the man to have money. Does anyone else see the implication here? He has to be able to afford his purchase.
The woman in this light is not his partner or help mate but his property.
I will not criticize if all parties are in full agreement of a polygamy lifestyle. That is their choice.
What newcomer is trying to do is justify lying and an affair.
A Muslim man once told me: "unfortunately in our society women are kept as pets"
I also believe that 'lying' is exactly that : lying, no white lies vs black lies they are all lies. The way some strange 'stories' are pronounced or expressed by some so called religious men in the Arab world baffle me still! as well as my grand parents!
It is not supposed to be like that 'pets' my eye!! I was never a pet in the house of my parents or grand parents and no woman in my family was treated like that, that is a convenient invention..
My husband treated me as an equal 100 %. He OFFERED me a beautiful ring, and from then on we built everything together with some help from our parents and grand parents at difficult times.!!!
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quote:Originally posted by Om Bubblemouth: nothing Newcomer is saying is justifying lying and affairs.
She said that in some cases it might be necessary in order to keep a family together, I also understood that as a justification.
Although, I feel that honesty is important between a married couple and that if one of the partners finds out that the other has lied it breaks the trust between a couple and can have very negative effects on a family, in some cases I can see that it could be necessary to keep a family together for a greater long-term benefit. And this could be one of the cases I feel, if, and only if, the reason for it being done was that the first wife is totally unreasonable, to the level of being unstable.Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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What newcomer is trying to do is justify lying and an affair.
Look, I don't like polygamy, either, but nothing Newcomer is saying is justifying lying and affairs.
But for the past 30 years *maybe*, women have *always* been reliant on men and their money/protection. Now we can work and have our own money. If a marriage is bad, we can leave.
And a cool thing about Islam -- a woman's money is her own.
quote:So say, for example, a man was married to a very unreasonable, unbalanced woman, he could decide that his marriage was intolerable and wanted to divorce, but if he feels responsible for his wife and his family and doesn't want to break it up, he may still stay married to her and support the family, and yet also marry someone else without telling her, if he thinks that she will do things that will harm the family.
lying and cheating.
Lets see you prove that having sex with another woman behind your wife's back is not lying and cheating.
A snake can still bite you no matter what name you call it.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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posted
By the way a lot of Muslims do not go by the 'ahadeeth' and many convolute them, and some invent them and others laugh at them. Is there a verse in the QUR'AN that says Lying is ok?
Here is some info regarding Hadeeth vs Qur'an
'There are Hadeeth Qudsi ( holy) which are graded by a specific group of Imams of a high reputation, as Saheeh (highest authenticity), or hasan (authentic), or even da’if (weakness in the transmission or text). There is no such doubt about any of the verses of the Qur'aan.
Hadeeth Qudsi cannot be recited in the prayer.
In cases where there is a 'doubt' regarding a hadeeth being of the highest authenticity in its interpretation of the Qur'an we should avoid it. Simple.
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Then how would you explain ahadeeth saying it is ok to take up to 4 wives if you treat them all fairly, but in the Quran it states it is impossible to treat them equally? Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: Then how would you explain ahadeeth saying it is ok to take up to 4 wives if you treat them all fairly, but in the Quran it states it is impossible to treat them equally?
That is 'exactly' my point. Ahadeeth are graded as highly authentic, good/seems authentic and weak. the one Newcomer mentioned is graded 'good/hasan' OR HASAN BY SOME BUT MANY Imams and scholars PREFER THE hIGHLY AUTHENTIC TO THE HASAN WHICH REALLY MEANS 'GOOD' NOT excellent..but of course others disagree etc...and life goes on in the circle of who screams better..
Of course some will 'insist' IT IS 'HASAN' OR GOOD. But I, and millions of other Muslims believe what the Qur'an says, and do not go by the ahadeeth THAT ARE LESS THAN 'HIGHLY AUTHENTIC' IN THEIR GRADE and that is our choice.
As an example, if my grade is GOOd vs Excellent it will not be as valuable. I need and 'Excellent' grade to enter medical school for example, but if I get a Good grade I can enter commerce...etc..
Remember how many stories that happened in your life were told in a 'slightly' different way by distraction even, or by misinterpretation by others than yourself? If I would research your story extremely well for example, I can say, hey that was a very weak interpretation you forgot that detail or the other...same for Hadeeth...So Millions of Muslims hear and study hadeeth for the sake of the story and the info and Many will research in books interpreting those ahadeeth and many will settle in believing some or others. But The Qur'an is ONE HOLY BOOK..Needed to be read in its authentic language many many times, to understand it MORE EACH TIME and be able to apply it the proper way. Ahadeeth that are highly authentic are the 'support' to Qur'an.. those that are weak are 'the problem'BECAUSE THEY ARE DOUBTFUL and those that are just 'good' or Hasan leave room for doubt.
The hadeeth about the 4 wives is 'weak'.
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Question: assalamu alaykum wa rahmatullah There is a deviant group of people who claim to follow the Quran only, and not the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet (SAW). Please provide us with scholarly proof that they are on the wrong path, so we can give them da'wah, Insha Allah. Wassalaam
Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.
Some people have started to claim that the Sunnah is not a source of legislation. They call themselves “al-Qur’aaniyyeen” and say that we have the Qur’aan, so we take as halaal whatever it allows and take as haraam whatever it forbids. The Sunnah, according to their claims, is full of fabricated ahaadeeth falsely attributed to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). They are the successors of other people about whom the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told us. Ahmad, Abu Dawood and al-Haakim reported with a saheeh isnaad from al-Miqdaam that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Soon there will be a time when a man will be reclining on his couch, narrating a hadeeth from me, and he will say, ‘Between us and you is the Book of Allaah: what it says is halaal, we take as halaal, and what it says is haraam, we take as haraam.’ But listen! Whatever the Messenger of Allaah forbids is like what Allaah forbids.” (Al-Fath al-Kabeer, 3/438. Al-Tirmidhi reported it with different wording, and said that it is hasan saheeh. Sunan al-Tirmidhi bi Sharh Ibn al-‘Arabi, al-Saawi edn., 10/132). The name al-Qur’aaniyyeen does not befit these people, because the Qur’aan tells us, in almost one hundred aayahs, to obey the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Obedience to the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is considered in the Qur’aan to be a part of obedience to Allaah, may He be glorified. “He who obeys the Messenger, has indeed obeyed Allaah, but he who turns away, then we have not sent you (O Muhammad) as a watcher over them.” [al-Nisa’ 4:80 – interpretation of the meaning]. The Qur’aan, which they claim to follow, denies the faith of the one who refuses to obey the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and does not accept his ruling: “But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you (O Muhammad) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.” [al-Nisa’ 4:65 – interpretation of the meaning]
Their suggestion that the Sunnah is “contaminated” with fabricated ahaadeeth is not valid, because the scholars of this ummah took the utmost care to purify the Sunnah from all alien elements. If they had any doubts about the truthfulness of any narrator, or there was the slightest possibility that he could have forgotten something, this would be sufficient grounds for rejecting a hadeeth. Even the enemies of this ummah have stated that no other nation has paid so much attention to examining its reports and their narrators, especially in the case of reports narrated from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).
For it to be obligatory to follow a hadeeth, it is sufficient for it to be known that it is a saheeh (authentic, sound) hadeeth narrated from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was content to convey his message by sending just one of his Companions, which proves that the hadeeth reported by one trustworthy person must be followed.
Moreover, we would ask these people: where are the aayaat which tell us how to pray, or which tell us that the obligatory prayers are five times daily, or which tell us about the nisaab on various kinds of wealth for the purpose of zakaah, or about the details of the rituals of Hajj, and other rulings which we can only know from the Sunnah?
Al-Mawsoo’ah al-Fiqhiyyah, 1/44
-------------------- 'Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "Allah's Apostle (صلى الله عليه و سلم) took hold of my shoulder and said, "Be in this world as if you were a stranger or a traveller." Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: I have been wondering if FGM is practiced to keep the woman passive and accepting of such abuse from men. Does anyone have insite to this?
quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: Then how would you explain ahadeeth saying it is ok to take up to 4 wives if you treat them all fairly, but in the Quran it states it is impossible to treat them equally?
What is the hadeeth? Please quote the hadeeth and it's source. I would like to see it and check it grading. Thanks
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: Then how would you explain ahadeeth saying it is ok to take up to 4 wives if you treat them all fairly, but in the Quran it states it is impossible to treat them equally?
Please quote the verse in the Quran that says this with the reference. I would like to look it up in the tafsirs that I have from the scholars inshaa Allah.
Thanks
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
My point is: Obey the words of the Prophet when Hadeeth is proven to be 'Highly authentic' ya sands not 'noss noss'.
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: [QUOTE]Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: [qb] Then how would you explain ahadeeth saying it is ok to take up to 4 wives if you treat them all fairly, but in the Quran it states it is impossible to treat them equally?
What is the hadeeth? Please quote the hadeeth and it's source. I would like to see it and check it grading. Thanks
P.S. funny then according to you the Quran said that it will be impossible to treat them fairly but and if that is the case and one takes the meaning literally, then where is the ayat that abrogates it i.e. cancels the ayat (approval) out and where is the ayat that prohibits polygamy.
This would also mean that the Prophet Muhammad (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and his righteous companions (may Allah be pleased with them) OPENLY disobeyed Allah, took the Quran for a joke (authubillah) and married mulitiple wives against the permission of Allah...Is this your position Almaz?
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Almaz.: My point is: Obey the words of the Prophet when Hadeeth is proven to be 'Highly authentic' ya sands not 'noss noss'.
The hadeeth about lying which Newcomer quoted is HIGHT authentic yet you dismiss it!
Asma’ bint Yazeed said: “The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said: ‘Lying is not permitted except in three cases: a man’s speaking to his wife to make her happy; lying at times of war; and lying in order to reconcile between people.’” (Reported by al-Tirmidhi, 1862; he said: it is a hasan hadeeth. See also Saheeh Muslim, 4717)
You can't any more AUTHENTIC then Saheeh Muslim ya Almaz..
Quick quesiton:
Almaz are you Sunni or Shia?..This might help to clarify things.
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Please quote the verse in the Quran that says this
You can never be equitable in dealing with more than one wife, no matter how hard you try. Therefore, do not be so biased as to leave one of them hanging. If you correct this situation and maintain righteousness, GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful."
Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire: But turn not away (from a woman) altogether, so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air). If ye come to a friendly understanding, and practise self-restraint, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
Ye will not be able to deal equally between (your) wives, however much ye wish (to do so). But turn not altogether away (from one), leaving her as in suspense. If ye do good and keep from evil, lo! Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
And you have it not in your power to do justice between wives, even though you may wish (it), but be not disinclined (from one) with total disinclination, so that you leave her as it were in suspense; and if you effect a reconciliation and guard (against evil), then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
quote:Originally posted by of_gold: I have been wondering if FGM is practiced to keep the woman passive and accepting of such abuse from men. Does anyone have insite to this?
Thank you Almaz but the left side of the article is cut off on my computer.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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What newcomer is trying to do is justify lying and an affair.
Look, I don't like polygamy, either, but nothing Newcomer is saying is justifying lying and affairs.
But for the past 30 years *maybe*, women have *always* been reliant on men and their money/protection. Now we can work and have our own money. If a marriage is bad, we can leave.
And a cool thing about Islam -- a woman's money is her own.
quote:So say, for example, a man was married to a very unreasonable, unbalanced woman, he could decide that his marriage was intolerable and wanted to divorce, but if he feels responsible for his wife and his family and doesn't want to break it up, he may still stay married to her and support the family, and yet also marry someone else without telling her, if he thinks that she will do things that will harm the family.
lying and cheating.
Lets see you prove that having sex with another woman behind your wife's back is not lying and cheating.
A snake can still bite you no matter what name you call it.
What if a spouse is severely disabled, like in a persistent vegetative state? Or has schizophrenia so badly she has to be institutionalized? Here in America, the man often divorces her. Would taking a second wife instead seem more compassionate?
I do just want to reiterate I'm not a fan of polygamy, but I can understand how it could be a good thing sometimes, depending on the circumstances.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Why do those who are not a fan of polygamy have to say that?
Allah and His Messenger (may the peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) was not ashame in authorized polygamy. Why must a Muslim think that they have to (or not) justify whether they are a "fan" of polygamy.
Some of the Muslims here (and I'm not pointing fingers) act as though polygamy is a disease, a sickness or something.
As a Muslim you have to accept it as part of faith. You don't have to run out and get married to multiples wives or even be a co-wife, but for God sakes stop acting as though polygamy is worst than the HIV/AIDS virus.
When you act like this, you are IMO dishonoring the Mother of the Believers (may Allah be pleased with them). They were the best of women and wives of the Prophet Muhammad (may Allah be pleased with him).
For God sakes stand-up for the tenents of your faith. Be proud that you are a Muslim/Muslimah and act like it.
We have a Christian woman here on this forum who is a co-wife married to a Muslim and she has more love, honor, and respect for the idea of polygamy marriage. When you listen to her there is no doubt that she believes in the fruits of it and she is not ashame to be a co-wife, nor is she ashamed of being married to a Muslim, Subhan Allah!
Wake up Muslims!
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Why do those who are not a fan of polygamy have to say that?
Because this is a discussion forum and people want to voice their opinions.
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: As a Muslim you have to accept it as part of faith.
Says who?
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: for God sakes stop acting as though polygamy is worst than the HIV/AIDS virus.
Polygamy certainly helps in the spreading of this virus ...
I see you're full of jokes today! BTW I'm still waiting on your reply on the male martial rape issue..Now joke about that.
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Well, I'm glad I've been able to contribute to your amusement, although that was not my intention.
And why are you so interested in my response on male marital rape? Would that make it easier for you to destract from the issues being debated in that thread, i.e. Muslim scholars justifying marital rape?!?
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
It seems that I caused a little flurry by what I said earlier. I was not trying to "justify" lying and affairs as OB pointed out; what I was trying to do was explain some points of Islamic law as best as I could, based on my knowledge, related to marriage.
Very often we look at divorce here on ES as if the wife is innocent and it does nothing wrong and it is the men who are all the bad ones, unless she has an affair, so I just tried to give an example of a possible scenario, when a good husband was faced with a wife who was unreasonable, unstable, maybe even mentally ill (although I didn't use those words I perhaps should have as it would have made my example less contentious and perhaps more understandable). I said that I didn't agree with lying between couples and I also said that I personally would not be involved in a marriage that was secret.
There is no way that I am putting men the level of a god, but in Islam they have been given the responsibility for the family: It was reported that ‘Abdullah ibn ‘Umar said: “I heard the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) say: ‘Each of you is a shepherd and each of you is responsible for his flock. The imam is a shepherd and is responsible for his flock. A man is the shepherd of his family and is responsible for his flock. A woman is the shepherd of her husband’s house and is responsible for her flock. A servant is the shepherd of his master’s wealth and is responsible for his flock.’ I think that he said, ‘A man is the shepherd of his father’s wealth and is responsible for his flock. Each of you is a shepherd and each of you is responsible for his flock.’” (Narrated by al-Bukhari, 853; Muslim, 1829)
The man is responsible for his family, in supporting it financially, and maintaining the family unit. This does not make them a god, just responsible. But it does mean that before a man can marry even one wife, he has to be able to support her, and this applies even more so with two or more, unless the wife agrees, voluntarily, to relieve him of some of this burden.
Being responsible doesn't mean that a man will always make the correct decisions, any more than a leader will make the best decision for their people or a mother will always make the best decision for her children, but they have been given that responsibility and have to carry it out to the best of their ability.
I know of many people who are in successful polygynous marriages, where the man is acting responsibly for his family and both his wives are happy, but I probably know even more instances of polygynous marriages that are bad, where the man has abused polygyny for his own selfish gains, or the first or second wives abuse their positions to do harm to the other family.
No one is perfect, not men, nor the women they marry, but in the end, it is as I said earlier: ... the guidelines are there and it is up to us to follow them as fairly and wisely as we can, knowing that Allah is Just, sees all, and will be the final arbiter. So what should keep people from behaving unjustly is knowing that Allah is watching them and in the end they will be accountable for their actions.
quote:Originally posted by of_gold: Then don't claim that Islam is fair to woman. Simply say:
1. Islam is not fair to woman. 2. Women are second class citizens in Islam. 3. In Islam, Woman do not have the same right to happiness that men do.
I don't think you will have seen me write those words, because what I usually say is that Islam is equitable, i.e. impartial or reasonable in judgment or dispensation; not necessarily equal or the same. I see Islam treating people according to their real, not desired conditions, seeing human beings as they are realistically and according to their natures. If you want to make men and women the same, that is up to you, but I enjoy and treasure the differences. I would write your points as follows:
1. Islam is equitable to all people according to their nature, conditions, and ability. It is people that treat others unfairly. 2. The only way people are "classed" in Islam is by the degree of their knowledge and piety, not by their gender. Men and women both have valuable complementary roles, not competing roles. All human beings are creations of Allah and in that they all deserve to be treated with respect. 3. In Islam, happiness comes with inner peace and contentment with the life you have been given.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: "I have been wondering if FGM is practiced to keep the woman passive and accepting of such abuse from men. Does anyone have insite to this?
"
I once heard someone make a statement saying: "There are not stupid questions, only stupid answers."
We'll after reading that post from of_golf I have been wondering if FGM is practiced to keep the woman passive and accepting of such abuse from men. Does anyone have insite to this?
I have to admit you (of_Gold) have absolutely proven them wrong. What a stupid question Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by newcomer: There is no way that I am putting men the level of a god, but in Islam they have been given the responsibility for the family:
The man is responsible for his family, in supporting it financially, and maintaining the family unit.
Being responsible doesn't mean that a man will always make the correct decisions, any more than a leader will make the best decision for their people or a mother will always make the best decision for her children, but they have been given that responsibility and have to carry it out to the best of their ability.
You keep saying "in Islam" men have been given the responsibility and they have been assigned as leades etc. pp. ... but who and where is "in Islam"? The mere fact that the supposed majority of (conservative) Muslim scholars might agree on this and that there are countless fatwas and texts out there claiming this does not make it a fact that obliges every indivdual believer to follow this opinion, it's just that -- an opinion.
Is there anything that makes this a fact and makes this opinion binding to all Muslims worldwide?
You see, most Muslims and Muslimas I personally know rather agree with what I said above, and they would be quite appalled by the idea of a husband being a *leader* and by the suggestions made above about when and why to take a second wife. So who is there to enforce this? Who says it's a law that every Muslim has to follow? Who says people aren't free to follow what they deem morally and religiously right? Who said there's a clergy in Islam that everyone has to follow? And who said that the most conservative opinion has got to be the right one?
There are many Muslims who don't believe that a man is automatically the *leader*, no matter how many scholars might claim this. So on what basis do you want to force them to accept this belief if it runs contradictory to their own convictions?
And I would very much be interested in your personal opinion. If, as you state, it's in no way guarenteed that men will make the best or better decisions, then why in the world should they automatically be regarded as leaders? Could you explain that to me from your personal point of view? (I'm not being facetious, btw, I would honestly like to understand why someone choses to believe this.)
What's the idea and the reasoning behind this? What makes YOU believe that this is right and and will lead to more happiness and justice in this world? What makes you believe that this is what God wants and not just another interpretation, based on age-old patriarchal structures? How would YOU personally feel if you had to submit your opinion and will to that of a man, even if you knew that you might be far better equipped to make important decisions?
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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OK, I have read the article on FGM. Quite an amusing piece.
It seems that some scholars feel:
The scholars said circumcision inflicts physical and mental harm on women. Furthermore, they said, Islam considers it to be an aggression against women. Those who perform it should be punished.
And others feel:
In eastern lands, where the climate is hot for most of the year, a girl may easily become aroused if she is not circumcised and this may make her shameless and prey to her sexual desires, except those to whom God shows compassion.
With a whole rage of opinions in between.
This was my favorite quote:
Fortunately, there are no rulings or fatwas favoring lobotomy as well, at least not yet. It would certainly make the woman obedient, not interfere with her role as a breeder and sexual object, and leave her just capable enough to be trained to cook and clean. What more could men’s honor ask for?
Thankfully, we have our own village idiot right here on ES to keep us all enlightened on what is actually Gods opinion. Step up to the Dias sands, this is your introduction.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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Greetings my brothers and sisters. I wondered onto this forum thinking I would find some light, fun discussions, and I have found that and also even more, that very interesting issues being raised. There are many things that it seems to me are cultural based in the interpretations, from both the Quran and the Haddiths. Islam is universal and yet so much interpretation and what ends up being accepted as true, is from Arab culture. This is natural given the history of Islam. Also this is not intended to be criticism of Arab culture, just that it is not written in stone as the only correct interpretation of everything Islamic for the whole world for all time. At the same time, now 80% of Muslims are not Arab and as the future unfolds, more and more Muslims will be from other parts of the world than the Arab world. There are many things which are very strange to me as a North American. I cannot fathom that female circumcision is put forward as Islamic where it I never found anything in the Glorious Quran to specifically allow it. Ok except I guess by inference to keep girls modest, but that is again interpretation, i.e. what keeps people modest, and then it’s very subject to culture and not what Allah has said.
As to marital rape how can it ever be justified? It breaks down the family and the woman who is equal to man. The Prophet (pbuh) said to always approach your wife with tenderness, kisses etc. That is love, whereas IMHO rape is about power and cruelty, something that should never occur from a Muslim toward his wife who is to be loved and cherished.
One thing I respect about Islam is that there is no supreme leader in the temporal world. This does make things open to interpretation, which of course will sometimes be sketchy and will always be somewhat influenced by the culture and the times, since we are all only human, even the best of scholars will have some bias. However it also means that Islam is a “thinking” way of life. Allah IMHP gave us minds to think, not just blindly follow a human leader or a series of human leaders, such as the Pope of the Catholics, no disrespect is intended here. No human living today is infallible unless Allah wills it, and I don’t see any evidence of this today, do you?
For me part of my deen is trying to work out in my own mind what things are cultural interpretations and what things are absolute from Allah directly, the Quran and what things are absolute from the Allah by way of the Prophet (pbuh). It’s a lifelong journey. I just don’t want to be stuck to interpretations that are cultural and that may not reflect Allah’s absolutes for today in another culture. This is not meant to be cultural relativism, but rather acknowledging that interpretations are bound to be influenced by cultures and the times, their norms and so on at a given time. Certainly some things are very clear, Allah forbids homosexual marriage for all times. This is clear, but female circumcision to keep women from misuse of their sexual desires???? It is IMHO men who have more trouble with containing their sexual desires and no one is suggesting cutting off their hands or taking off the head of their penis to prevent such misuse. I am not suggesting that anyone would do such a terrible thing btw, just illustrating that there are other ways of containing one’s sexual desires. We are all Allah’s creation and should hopefully be treated with the love and respect and care that is befitting of Allah’s creation.
Posts: 3 | From: Canada | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: You keep saying "in Islam" men have been given the responsibility and they have been assigned as leades etc. pp. ... but who and where is "in Islam"? The mere fact that the supposed majority of (conservative) Muslim scholars might agree on this and that there are countless fatwas and texts out there claiming this does not make it a fact that obliges every indivdual believer to follow this opinion, it's just that -- an opinion.
Is there anything that makes this a fact and makes this opinion binding to all Muslims worldwide?
You see, most Muslims and Muslimas I personally know rather agree with what I said above, and they would be quite appalled by the idea of a husband being a *leader* and by the suggestions made above about when and why to take a second wife. So who is there to enforce this? Who says it's a law that every Muslim has to follow? Who says people aren't free to follow what they deem morally and religiously right? Who said there's a clergy in Islam that everyone has to follow? And who said that the most conservative opinion has got to be the right one?
There are many Muslims who don't believe that a man is automatically the *leader*, no matter how many scholars might claim this. So on what basis do you want to force them to accept this belief if it runs contradictory to their own convictions?
And I would very much be interested in your personal opinion. If, as you state, it's in no way guarenteed that men will make the best or better decisions, then why in the world should they automatically be regarded as leaders? Could you explain that to me from your personal point of view? (I'm not being facetious, btw, I would honestly like to understand why someone choses to believe this.)
What's the idea and the reasoning behind this? What makes YOU believe that this is right and and will lead to more happiness and justice in this world? What makes you believe that this is what God wants and not just another interpretation, based on age-old patriarchal structures? How would YOU personally feel if you had to submit your opinion and will to that of a man, even if you knew that you might be far better equipped to make important decisions?
Dalia, please do not try to put words in my mouth, I used the word "responsible" deliberately, not *leader*, I never said that anyone was forced to do anything or believe anything, I gave my understanding, with evidence from one Hadith, but, as you well know, there are also ayah in the Qur'an that say similar things and other Hadith that say the same things. If you and your Muslim friends chose to have interpretations of the Qur'an other than that of the majority and chose not to recognize the Hadith, that is your choice...and I am free to voice my opinion on that as you are on my opinions.
And, if your Muslim friends choose not to follow the way that the "supposed majority of (conservative) Muslim scholars" have interpreted the texts - although I think that we may have a different interpretation of "conservative" here as I have seen many scholars who I would also consider liberals also coming to the same conclusion - that again is their choice, no one will force them to think or act otherwise. But I guess that bunch of questions were more rhetorical as you already know the answer to them, and I find it very strange that you felt the need to write them!
I have no problem in accepting that a man is the one responsible for supporting the family and that he will be accountable for it. To me that doesn't mean that I would have to submit my will and opinions to a man - I know that there are many out there who do interpret Islam that way and some of them have wanted me to adopt that role, but as that is not my understanding of the meaning of the texts, I have turned down their offers and would not in any case accept a husband who was far less capable than me of making important decisions!
I see marriage as being a partnership, where both parties discuss matters pertaining to the family life and in most cases come to joint decisions, but if it comes to the final analysis, after all the discussions that they cannot agree, that, as the one "responsible" for the family, the man has the right to make the final decision. And I believe this is so after doing my own reading and research. Having come from a non-Muslim background with my own strong ideas in that world, I too looked at the Islamic texts long and hard and asked lots of questions to work out which opinions I think are the correct ones, and I accept that Allah in His Wisdom did give that role to men.
Marriage is always a compromise, there is always give and take, no one is infallible and always makes the correct decisions, but someone has to make the final decision in a relationship sometimes by themselves. Any decisions have the potential to be wrong, that is the way of life, you win and some you lose, but in a marriage you support each other and stick together as a team, it is not a completion to see who can be the best/the most powerful, its a team that is working together in their own roles...some that are recommended by Islam and some that are negotiated between the couple based on their own skills and abilities...and they try to come to the best for the family.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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It's very unfortunate when convert ( newcomer ) really doesn't know and understand fully the whole idea of Islam comes here and tells you things culturally and claims this is Islamic.
People, do not listen what she is saying. This is not the 1st time, I have been on this board since 2001 tons of people told her to stop doing this, yet she acts as if she invented religion.
The 2nd wife possibility is only given for the reason to protect and support the 1st wife, don't be silly! The 1st wife must be asked. You can't possibly hide another woman and claim this is what Allah wants you to do.
Now if people don't do that, they are not following Islam but their own rules that fits them the way they like.
Having more than 1 wife is not recommended in Islam even back then when the societies looked differently, neither encouraged now, ( very rarely someone would fit criteria anyway ) thus majority of Muslims in the world have one wife and believe this is the right choice.
Lying is not permissable for Godness sake, only in very extreme cases, in which your words would determine life or death.
Newcomer, don't you feel responsiblle for claiming things that someone thought you culturally yet you take this and claim it's according to Islam?
Your posts are insulting to me as a Muslim born woman and I don't reccomend anyone to follow your advices. I don't really dislike converts but when a convert converts just to marry and/or has no clue what's the core of Islam yet comes here and preaches me about my own religion, I want to puke!
I don't respect you for that. Now I got to go all the way to your 1st post here, and correct all your statements about Islam, to make sure that people don't form unreal picture and believe things you are telling them to be per Allah. They ask you questions with common sense, because they have common sense, not unlike you who just brain wash like you were brainwashed.
Posts: 1039 | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Why do those who are not a fan of polygamy have to say that?
Allah and His Messenger (may the peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) was not ashame in authorized polygamy. Why must a Muslim think that they have to (or not) justify whether they are a "fan" of polygamy.
Some of the Muslims here (and I'm not pointing fingers) act as though polygamy is a disease, a sickness or something.
I'm not a fan because I was born into a culture where it's not acceptable. Where women can and should expect to have the ultimate, which is a monogamous relationship.
Polygamy is very rarely good, in my opinion. There are exceptions, generally when everyone knows what is going on and make the choice together to enter into such relationships.
In my experience, it doesn't happen that way. The Egyptian men I know with two wives are real jerks, arrogant and self-centered, and have two wives for nothing more than sexual variety. Period. Instead of being something that brings out the best in people, it brings out the worst.
It probably can be a tool to promote security, family, and love. I just haven't seen it play out that way among people I actually know.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
I try to refrain from such discussion because people, well some people take such issues personally. I think this hinders a constructive discussion. We all want proof. We all want sound evidence and let me ask you this: Why would you substantiate someone’s opinion without scrutinizing it completely? You know the answer – I know the answer – everyone knows the answer. It’s because such an opinion suits your fancies.
An example:
We hear that polygamy was revealed because of the battles and wars and the deaths to the Muslim males. We hear that polygamy was allowed because of the widows and orphans. The fact is Muslim males married multiple women before and after the revelations in Surah-al-Nisa. Surah -al-Nisa was simply regulation.
First let us count the deaths of Muslim males in major battles:
-Battle of Badr = 14 Deaths out of approximately 300 Muslims
-Battle of Uhud = 75 Deaths out of approximately 700 Muslims (4:3 Was revealed after this battle)
-Battle of the trench = 6 Deaths out of approximately 3000 Muslims
These deaths amount to less than 1% - 10% of Muslim combatants.
Why wasn’t 4:3 abrogated after the Muslims flourished and after the Battle of the Trench? After all Muslims flourished at that time and Medina became a city and not a town. People were converting to Islam left and right. The increase in number of Muslim combatants in such battles is testimony of how strong Muslims grew in Male Numbers.
Now for those who claim that Prophet Muhammad (saw) only married widows … well:
Ayisha wasn’t a widow Maria wasn’t a widow Safiyah wasn’t a widow Rayhannah wasn’t a widow Juwayriah wasn’t a widow
Conclusion:
Few Muslims actually died in battles
Males converting/joining to Islam increased with each passing year.
Prophet Muhammad (saw) married women who weren’t widows
Muslim males married multiple women prior to the revelation of 4:3/4:129
Muslim males married multiple women after the revelation of 4:3/4:129
Ali ibn Talib the cousin of the Prophet (saw) was one of the Muslims who married multiple women and guess what one of his wives wasn’t a widow AND guess what he married her after Surah al-Nisa was revealed.
-Sobriquet
Posts: 2079 | From: 'by any means necessary' - Malcom X | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
Wasalaamalikum. These discussions are exactly my point of there being so much interpretation possible. I had also heard that multiple wives were the result of adjustments needing to be made to provide for widows of war casualties. So sei-i taishogun, you make a very illuminating point. I guess there were also losses of men from disease and short life expectancies, but you raise a really thought provoking point. BTW where in the Quran does it specifically state that women can have only one husband, or is this just presumed? I don't recall having found this indicated in any of the Surahs, but I certainly can't be sure. Is this authoritatively spoken to or is this custom? What about wealthy older women who could support and care for more than one husband? There are lots of destitute men around without great hopes of being able to support themselves – at this is what I hear. Note: These are strictly academic questions. I am not personally interested in more husbands. The one I have had for many years is just fine for me. I am just trying to increase my knowledge base of Islam, especially relating to issues on the spirit of the laws compared to the letter of the law.
Posts: 3 | From: Canada | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:Originally posted by sei-i taishogun: I try to refrain from such discussion because people, well some people take such issues personally. I think this hinders a constructive discussion. We all want proof. We all want sound evidence and let me ask you this: Why would you substantiate someone’s opinion without scrutinizing it completely? You know the answer – I know the answer – everyone knows the answer. It’s because such an opinion suits your fancies.
An example:
We hear that polygamy was revealed because of the battles and wars and the deaths to the Muslim males. We hear that polygamy was allowed because of the widows and orphans. The fact is Muslim males married multiple women before and after the revelations in Surah-al-Nisa. Surah -al-Nisa was simply regulation.
First let us count the deaths of Muslim males in major battles:
-Battle of Badr = 14 Deaths out of approximately 300 Muslims
-Battle of Uhud = 75 Deaths out of approximately 700 Muslims (4:3 Was revealed after this battle)
-Battle of the trench = 6 Deaths out of approximately 3000 Muslims
These deaths amount to less than 1% - 10% of Muslim combatants.
Why wasn’t 4:3 abrogated after the Muslims flourished and after the Battle of the Trench? After all Muslims flourished at that time and Medina became a city and not a town. People were converting to Islam left and right. The increase in number of Muslim combatants in such battles is testimony of how strong Muslims grew in Male Numbers.
Now for those who claim that Prophet Muhammad (saw) only married widows … well:
Ayisha wasn’t a widow Maria wasn’t a widow Safiyah wasn’t a widow Rayhannah wasn’t a widow Juwayriah wasn’t a widow
Conclusion:
Few Muslims actually died in battles
Males converting/joining to Islam increased with each passing year.
Prophet Muhammad (saw) married women who weren’t widows
Muslim males married multiple women prior to the revelation of 4:3/4:129
Muslim males married multiple women after the revelation of 4:3/4:129
Ali ibn Talib the cousin of the Prophet (saw) was one of the Muslims who married multiple women and guess what one of his wives wasn’t a widow AND guess what he married her after Surah al-Nisa was revealed.
-Sobriquet
Polygamy existed WAY before Islaam. Polygamy is not restricted to only Islaam. You are absolutely correct. This is why I say that there is no need to try to sugarcoat polygamy. It is what is it.
It has be authorized and sanctioned by Allah and His Messenger (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Why must a Muslim make excuses for why polygamy is allowed. Anyone who has been through a simple social stuides course in university knows that polygamy is not something new and it should not solely be attrributed to Islaam. Many of the Prophets (may Allah be pleased with them) BEFORE Islaam and their followers practiced polygamy.
Just because Islaam too allows for it, but let people come along and make it seem like something new and dirty. Same God before same God now.
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Why do those who are not a fan of polygamy have to say that?
Allah and His Messenger (may the peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) was not ashame in authorized polygamy. Why must a Muslim think that they have to (or not) justify whether they are a "fan" of polygamy.
Some of the Muslims here (and I'm not pointing fingers) act as though polygamy is a disease, a sickness or something.
I'm not a fan because I was born into a culture where it's not acceptable. Where women can and should expect to have the ultimate, which is a monogamous relationship.
Polygamy is very rarely good, in my opinion. There are exceptions, generally when everyone knows what is going on and make the choice together to enter into such relationships.
In my experience, it doesn't happen that way. The Egyptian men I know with two wives are real jerks, arrogant and self-centered, and have two wives for nothing more than sexual variety. Period. Instead of being something that brings out the best in people, it brings out the worst.
It probably can be a tool to promote security, family, and love. I just haven't seen it play out that way among people I actually know.
Then I ask you to look to brighter examples of men who practice polygamy in the correct manner.
Look no further the the best example Muhammad bin Abdullah (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and 4 khulifah (may Allah be pleased with them) and the companions of the Prophet (may the peace and blessing of Allah be upon him).
Yes, Muslims are all jacked up today (sorry to say that) it is true. However, Islaam the Quran and Sunnah is still in it perfect form. Everyone here knows Muslims are very far from their deen (religion) but that doesn't negate the fact of the example and message of Islaam.
The other issue is culture. Culture this culture that! This is the thing today that is causing division amongst the Muslims. Go back the the message of Islaam. Wherein NO Arab is better than a NONE Arab. Where a Black Slave (Bilal ibn Rabah may Allah be pleased with him) was RAISED to a level in Islaam and in Allah's eyes which has not yet even been comprehended in so called civilized societies.
I can go on and on, but I won't. Let us all strive to make our main culture Islaam. I'm not saying forget anyones's culture. However, what I am saying is let the foundation of your life (culture) be Islaam.
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife: It's very unfortunate when convert ( newcomer ) really doesn't know and understand fully the whole idea of Islam comes here and tells you things culturally and claims this is Islamic.
Now I got to go all the way to your 1st post here, and correct all your statements about Islam, to make sure that people don't form unreal picture and believe things you are telling them to be per Allah. They ask you questions with common sense, because they have common sense, not unlike you who just brain wash like you were brainwashed.
I'm trying to find a nice way sister to say that your views about Islaam are baseless, unfounded and is unsupported. Sorry but I can't.
I have a question if you don't mind. Please explain to me/us what is your Aqeedah and Manhaj in Islaam?
For you to make accusations about "NEWCOMER" in the manner that you have leaves me in a daze. Anyone can see that Newcomer is very well grounded in her Aqeedah and Manhaj, unlike you and some of the "Free thinking" BORN (Egyptian) Muslims (and other then them)here.
It is obvious that she has a very sound understanding of Islaam, and I would put myself out of a limb her (put this really isn't the case) by saying that NEWCOMER is in my opinion has more knowledge about the fundamentals of Al-Islaam than MANY so called born Muslims.
You only need to walk outside your door in Cairo and see the pathetic condition and examples of BORN Muslims in this country and they call themseleves Muslims? And you sit there and critize NEWCOMER about her deen. Shame on you! Go out and check your fellow Egyptian sisters and brothers! Clean up that part of your house. There is so much shirk and grave worship here in Egypt that it makes one sick. The lewdness, DRUGS, alcohol, gambling, Prostitution, STEALING, & ABORTION (yes it exist and you know it does) has gotten out of control and unchecked. You dont' have to go far..Go to City Stars (forget about Sharm and Hurgadah and other cities) and see the condition of BORN Egytpian Muslims.
Tigerlily and Undercover post many English articles that show the lawlessness Egypt and elsewhere. The unislamic behavior of BORN Muslims. We haven't seen anything. Let them post the articles on these types of incidents that are posted in the Egytian Arab newspapers. You know "Lovingmylife" it that will make you shame and sick. Many foreigners here have no idea what is really taking place in your Muslim Born Country, do they? It is for the most part the converts and foreigner her defending EGYPT, if only they knew what you and I know.
When was the last time you left your car doors unlocked in Egypt. Eveyone has a burgular Alarm on their cars even those with $2 Lada's (LOL).
I can't even go to the masjid with a nice pair of shoes for the fear that someone(MOST LIKEY BORN MUSLIM)will steal them. Last year me and a friend was praying in Al Azhar masjid down in Hussein and he had his shoes off to the side of him (fearing that some still might steal them) and while he was in prayer sure enough someone came along and TRIED to steal his shoes. He had to break his prayer and run and catch the BORN Muslim EGYPTIAN guy. Can you believe it. Right inside the masjid! You can't even have peace of mind to reflect on your Creator because of the constant fear that someone is going to steal your shoes! Astagfirullah.
You sit there and talk about Converts verses born Muslims. Shame on you. Those of us who convert for the most part take the time to learn about Islaam. Whereas some BORN Muslims think that because their parents are Muslims and/or they speak Arab (Most can't even understand fus'ha or even recite Quran with proper tajweed) they think that they are automatically Scholars and going straight to Paradise. Let me tell you sister if you think like that you are far from the true and have a rude awakening coming. Allahu Masta'an!
P.S.
We convert Muslims are getting tired of having to explaining the actions of BORN Muslims. We are tired of having to explain to Non-Muslims that Islaam is not about Terriorism, Muslims aren't taught to blow-up innocent women and children (even though they are Jew and Christian). We are tired to have to explaining the actions of BORN Muslims who in Indonesia go around killing Christians by cutting off their heads and saying it is Jihad. We are tire of explaining the actions of Nigeiran BORN Muslim kiling Christians because of a cartoon that was drawn by a BORN Muslim in Bangladesh! How many BORN EGYPTIAN Muslims back in 1993 (when I was lving here) were killing hundreds of tourist in Egypt?
How much dis-service do you see CONVERTS doing for the image of Al-Islaam verse the evil actions that are committed and carried out by BORN Muslims all over the world-wide?
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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I don`t know much about Islam, but I do know there are loads of people, born and raised in an Islamic country, that don`t behave in the spirit of ANY religion. And indeed there are some who try to judge for instance a christian, because he/she isn`t islamic and never should be able to enter paradise only because they are not islamic. I told them if there should be one and only juding God, he shouldn`t be that narrow-minded. Because that God should know that; however they were born and raised as a muslim, they did everything what God has forbidden; in THEIR religion,and in MINE religion as well. I dare to state that it isn`t about religion at all, it is about the way you act and behave during life.If you behave in a good way, it will be rewarded, if you behave badly, it will be payd back, even DURING your life. I really don`t need all these holy book scripts to prove that! You`re all making it far to difficult! If this Mahmoud did met an old girlfriend, while both are married, and both feel the desire to be together instead as by their own partner, they both have to be honest against their legal husband and wife. Marry Islamic behind her back is NOT permitted. Not in islam, not in christianity, not in any other religion. Period.
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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There is nothing islamic neither in newcomer's explanation nor yours. You haven't answered on any questions so far.
I asked you what do you see respectful about having sex with 2 women? You said nothing.
I asked how sleeping with 2 women is different from a man banging a man, morally? You said nothing.
I asked you is your wife terminally ill? You said nothing. Other people asked valid questions too.
Both of you have failed to justify what you preach. So please do me a favor and stop using the words and claim "it's per Allah". It's NOT. I don't know why you really converted to Islam. Maybe because you wanted to free your mind from having sex with bunch of ladies and attempt to justify it with your tiwsted understanding of Islam as religion.
What you do is amazing. ( which is good only because other people can learn how to differentiate between brainwashers and real thinkers ). You insert bunch of religious words in your "brainwashing" so you look like some "religious" guy who knows.
If we remove all those, we are left with babbling. There is nothing in your posts that makes sense and is Islamic either. I don't even know why am I talking to you about this! You are not comepetent enough to carry logical conversation. Thus I won't take you seriously at all.
Because of people like you, bunch of people in the world have twisted picture about Islam because you are presenting your personal life case islamic, even if you know it's not, just to justify your own life style.
This is perfect example of what some other bad leaders did. Such as Hitler. He used Darwin's Theory on Evolution to kill people who are in his opinion "weak". If Darwin ( who had good intent ) knew this would happen he would never publish his book. Now Hitler took role of "God" who would determine who shall live and who shall die.
Same like what you do. You and newcomer make decisions in your speech what's reasonable and what's not reasonable. Both of you don't ask anyone anything, neither understand the core of Islam. Islam has good intent, not just for men, but for women too.
In the same sense, Allah sees what and how people like you twist and re-arrange his Words to justify polygamy, promiscuous behavior, abuse, violance, bunch of women hidden from each other, lies, deceit and all Bs, violations of basic human rights and everything else, and claim it this "per Him", and on top of it you think I will believe it?
You need mental evaluation if you think that Muslims unlike you will support you just because you said "Inshallah".
If you want to have sexual variety and sleep with 4 women, you could, just don't claim it it's what Islam tells you to do.
In other words, don't try to fool anyone around, the reason your comments and newcomers make no sense is because these interpretations you are claiming are simply stupid and not Islamic AT ALL.
RATHER CULTURAL
...and insulting to any human being, not to mention to born Muslim such as myself.
You could live in Utah, USA. Your interpretations of Islam don't differ from polygamyst in Utah. That's how both of you sound.
Muslims all over the world don't support polygamy. I could never respect a polygamist who uses Islam to justify his actions, such as yourself.
You could of been a man who likes to have sex with his own children, how do we know you are not, you support polygamy in the year of 2007 when most of people understand that 1 woman and 1 man is more than enough for happy family life.
Posts: 1039 | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife: (blah blah blah (edited by the Sandman)
Notice I cut your entire quote cause it was filled with garbage and rambling.
Suffice it to say (brother) cause everyone here knows you're not a female..(LOL)..we will leave it at this.."Everything you say is right BORN Muslim!)..Just joking..
Oh when I become a polygamist I'll let you know. Until now for the like 40th time. I don't even have a 2nd wife. You're so busy trying to refute me you don't even read or comprehend my responses to you. If you did you would have known that I don't sleep with 2 women. I'm only married to one woman and NO my wife is not terminally ill for the 40th time. Do you want me to respond to your post in Arabic so you will get it right? You are such a twiddle.
Thank God you're not a convert. If you were you would give us such a bad name.
I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person (Go arm yourself)..For the love of God!
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Under the Tuscan Sun: Wasalaamalikum. These discussions are exactly my point of there being so much interpretation possible. I had also heard that multiple wives were the result of adjustments needing to be made to provide for widows of war casualties. So sei-i taishogun, you make a very illuminating point. I guess there were also losses of men from disease and short life expectancies, but you raise a really thought provoking point. BTW where in the Quran does it specifically state that women can have only one husband, or is this just presumed? I don't recall having found this indicated in any of the Surahs, but I certainly can't be sure. Is this authoritatively spoken to or is this custom? What about wealthy older women who could support and care for more than one husband? There are lots of destitute men around without great hopes of being able to support themselves – at this is what I hear. Note: These are strictly academic questions. I am not personally interested in more husbands. The one I have had for many years is just fine for me. I am just trying to increase my knowledge base of Islam, especially relating to issues on the spirit of the laws compared to the letter of the law.
Hi Tuscan
The Quran does not specifically state women may only take one husband. Prior to Islam there was some form of polyandry - although it was more of an orgy type relationship. Prophet Muhammad (saw) outlawed every form of marriage and decreed that Muslim marriage was the only one acceptable.
I erred by stating Safiyah wasn’t a widow because she was. Zainab bint Jahsh was the other woman that wasn’t a widow. Prophet Muhammad (saw) wasn’t kidding when he professed his love for women. His (saw) marriage to Juwairryah validates this point. She was young, beautiful and most of the Muslim males coveted her. Yet it was the Prophet (saw) who married her.
So this nonsense that Prophet Muhammad (saw) only married the widowed and divorced women is just that nonsense. What I wrote is historical and it doesn't pertain what is Haram or what is halal. i don't know why people feel they need to apologize for the Prophet's (saw) actions. I don't know why it makes them uncomfortable. Obviously they have issues with Islam but Islam transcends peoples' complexes. Nobody is asking anyone to take a second wife and nobody is asking a woman to be a second wife. The point is it is a part of Islam and historically attested.
Again for the feeble minded(not u tuscan) polygamy only represents 2% of all marriages in the Islamic world.
-Sobriquet
Posts: 2079 | From: 'by any means necessary' - Malcom X | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
LML, even if all you said was true, you should not say that to him or any other convert because if his belief is not strong enough he could doubt in his Islam and revert back and if he did that, you could have the sin enough to take you to hell. You should think and care about Islam more than defending yourself. All sins he has ever done before converting are erased, he got the benefit from that and you should never talk about his sin or if he is or has done bad. You never know, the best of the companions of the prophet were converts (Khalid Ibn Elwaleed for example). After they converted they helped the Islam to spread and so you should never say those things about him or his beliefs.
Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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