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Egyptologists think they have Hatshepsut's mummy Monday, 25 Jun 2007 By Jonathan Wright
CAIRO, June 25 (Reuters Life!) - Egyptologists think they have identified with certainty the mummy of Hatshepsut, the most famous queen to rule ancient Egypt, found in a humble tomb in the Valley of the Kings, an archaeologist said on Monday.
Egypt's chief archaeologist, Zahi Hawass, will hold a news conference in Cairo on Wednesday. The Discovery Channel said he would announce what it called the most important find in the Valley of the Kings since the discovery of King Tutankhamun.
The archaeologist, who asked not to be named, said the candidate for identification as the mummy of Hatshepsut was one of two females found in 1903 in a small tomb believed to be that of Hatshepsut's wet-nurse, Sitre In.
Several Egyptologists have speculated over the years that one of the mummies was that of the queen, who ruled from between 1503 and 1482 BC -- at the height of ancient Egypt's power.
The archaeologist said Hawass would present new evidence for an identification but that not all Egyptologists are convinced he will be able to prove his case.
"It's based on teeth and body parts ... It's an interesting piece of scientific deduction which might point to the truth," the archaeologist said.
Egyptologist Elizabeth Thomas speculated many years ago that one of the mummies was Hatshepsut's because the positioning of the right arm over the woman's chest suggested royalty.
Her mummy may have been hidden in the tomb for safekeeping after her death because her stepson and successor, Tuthmosis III, tried to obliterate her memory.
Donald Ryan, an Egyptologist who rediscovered the tomb in 1989, said on an Internet discussion board this month that there were many possibilities for the identities of the two female mummies found in the tomb, known as KV 60.
"Zahi Hawass recently has taken some major steps to address these questions. Both of the KV 60 mummies are in Cairo now and are being examined in various clever ways that very well might shed light on these questions," he added.
In an undated article on his Web site, Hawass cast doubt on the theory that the KV-60 mummy with the folded right arm was that of Hatshepsut.
"I do not believe this mummy is Hatshepsut. She has a very large, fat body with huge pendulous breasts, and the position of her arm is not convincing evidence of royalty," he wrote.
He was more optimistic about the mummy found in the wet-nurse's coffin and traditionally identified as the nurse's. That mummy is stored away in the Egyptian Museum in Cairo.
"The body of the mummy now in KV 60 with its huge breasts may be the wetnurse, the original occupant of the coffin ... The mummy on the third floor at the Egyptian Museum in Cairo could be the mummy of Hatshepsut," Hawass wrote. [Source]
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I can't wait for the whitewashed Mediteranean facial reconstruction...
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:The archaeologist, who asked not to be named, said the candidate for identification as the mummy of Hatshepsut was one of two females found in 1903 in a small tomb believed to be that of Hatshepsut's wet-nurse, Sitre In.
Several Egyptologists have speculated over the years that one of the mummies was that of the queen, who ruled from between 1503 and 1482 BC -- at the height of ancient Egypt's power.
The archaeologist said Hawass would present new evidence for an identification but that not all Egyptologists are convinced he will be able to prove his case.
So basically this is not a new mummy but the unidentified one from 1903 in KV60, how boring. Posts: 1420 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: I can't wait for the whitewashed Mediteranean facial reconstruction...
Bas-relief from the Hatshepsut's Temple. This is a masterpiece in the temple showing queen Ahmose, queen Hatshepsut's mother. Queen Ahmose was the queen of Thutmose I, pharaoh of Egypt, a military general who became pharaoh. Ahmose was the granddaughter of Queen Ahmose-Nefertari and Amenhotep I of Egypt. Her daughter Hatshepsut went on to be one of Egypt's greatest pharaohs.
Do I have this family tree right?
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Posts: 1549 | From: California, USA | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis: So basically this is not a new mummy but the unidentified one from 1903 in KV60, how boring.
There is not one single photograph that you can see of the second mummy since it moved to the [Egyptian Museum in Cairo]. Not one. [Source]
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So the one above is of what they believe is her wet-nurse? She has the folded arm.
quote:In an undated article on his Web site, Hawass cast doubt on the theory that the KV-60 mummy with the folded right arm was that of Hatshepsut.
"I do not believe this mummy is Hatshepsut. She has a very large, fat body with huge pendulous breasts, and the position of her arm is not convincing evidence of royalty," he wrote. . ..."The body of the mummy now in KV 60 with its huge breasts may be the wetnurse, the original occupant of the coffin ... The mummy on the third floor at the Egyptian Museum in Cairo could be the mummy of Hatshepsut,"
You think they will show pictures of the one in the museum on wednesday?
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So the one above is of what they believe is her wet-nurse? She has the folded arm.
Yes
quote:Originally posted by Yonis: You think they will show pictures of the one in the museum on Wednesday?
I don't know. News conferences are usually brief. The Discovery Channel is filming a documentary about it. I don’t think Hawass will reveal too much now.
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Hawass said the final clue lay within a box inscribed with the female Pharaoh's name.
A scan of the box revealed a tooth, which, when measured, matched within a fraction of a millimetre to the space of the missing molar in the mouth of the mummy called KV60A. This was the unidentified female originally found by Carter next to Hatshepsut's nanny.
Our hope is that this mummy will help shed light . . . on the mysterious nature of her death, said Hawass.
According to Discovery News, DNA testing on the 3,000-year-old mummy and mummies from Hatshepsut family will be the next step to reach conclusive evidence. [Source]
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On Wednesday (27/6/2007) at 11:00 a.m Culture Minster Farouk Housni and Dr. Zahi Hawass Secretary General of the Supreme Council of Antiquities (SCA) will hold an International Conference at the Egyptian Museum in Tarir in Room 43 to announce the Identification of Hatshepsut's mummy.
Please come to attend the event at 10:00 am. at the Egyptian Museum in order to fix cameras and TV crews. [Source]
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Posts: 1549 | From: California, USA | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis: So basically this is not a new mummy but the unidentified one from 1903 in KV60, how boring.
Remember that most of the mummies whom we suspect to be great rulers are not new at all but were discovered long time ago. Again, the issue is knowing their identities.
Remember that Fletcher's mummy who is presumed to be Nefertiti was one of three uncoffined and even unwrapped mummies discovered by a French archaeologist in 1898-- about 109 years ago.
So the question now: Is Discovery going to make a "Hatshepsut Resurrected"??
And if so, will the reconstruction really be as "white-washed" as King Scorpi fears, or will it be surprisingly more realistic and accurate like the reconstruction of Fletcher's mummy.
By the way, we have several images of Hatshepsut from her lifetime. I hope they will use those as much as they relied on the Berlin bust for Fletcher's mummy.
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: So the question now: Is Discovery going to make a "Hatshepsut Resurrected"??
And if so, will the reconstruction really be as "white-washed" as King Scorpi fears, or will it be surprisingly more realistic and accurate like the reconstruction of Fletcher's mummy.
By the way, we have several images of Hatshepsut from her lifetime. I hope they will use those as much as they relied on the Berlin bust for Fletcher's mummy.
Let's just say that if and when a nordic-looking personality shows up, a red flag should be raised instantly.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: So the question now: Is Discovery going to make a "Hatshepsut Resurrected"??
And if so, will the reconstruction really be as "white-washed" as King Scorpi fears, or will it be surprisingly more realistic and accurate like the reconstruction of Fletcher's mummy.
By the way, we have several images of Hatshepsut from her lifetime. I hope they will use those as much as they relied on the Berlin bust for Fletcher's mummy.
Let's just say that if and when a nordic-looking personality shows up, a red flag should be raised instantly.
Well, I wouldn't say it'll be Nordic...I mean more in line with what came out in the recent King Tut reconstruction.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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The names of the rulers of Kemet can be found in the back of Budge's Hieroglyphic dictionary. One of the names for "Hatshepsut" that you're referring to is:
"Amen Khenem.t He.t Shepsu" as it is written by Budge
Amen = "hidden, concealed, ..." Khenem.t = "associate, friend, confident" He.t (Coptic: He) = "at the front, beginning, forefront" Shepsu = masculine plural of Shep.s or "noble men" Shepsi would be the feminine plural (see http://www.jimloy.com/hiero/gardnera.gif > A:50)
"Hatshepsut" is only a part of the Pharaoh's title; Thus, "Amen Knenem.t He.t Shepsu" would mean, literally:
"Leading nobleman and confident of the Hidden One"
It would probably be pronounced something like: "A'-man knay-nam' hay shayp-soo" but for now, we're stuck with "Hatshepsut."
Incidentally, **if she was referred to in the feminine, it would be "Amen Knenem.t He.t Shepsi.t"**, which is another story...
^The highlighting of the last piece with the stars "**", is my emphasis, but in relation to the post,...
About the "feminine" orientation of the title, which wasn't afforded to Hetshepsut, notwithstanding her being a female, has to do with her being a Pharaoh?! ...and/or, though not sure about the authenticity of the claim, it has been said that Hetshepsut carried herself as a male personality. If so, perhaps then there may be a connection between this and the "masculine" orientation of her title. - Mystery Solver
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Wow, if that's her then she must have died very old, she looks as she died at the same age as Ramses II. Btw how come all 18th dynasty mummies have such weird shaped back head? almost as a big family disease.
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis: Wow, if that's her then she must have died very old, she looks as she died at the same age as Ramses II. Btw how come all 18th dynasty mummies have such weird shaped back head? almost as a big family disease.
How can you tell her age of death by looking at her?? All mummies look the same way (shriveled up) even if they died young.
By the way, I agree with King Scorpi-- I seriously doubt the reconstruction would look "Nordic", only "Mediterranean" (European or Arab) Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:By the way, I agree with King Scorpi-- I seriously doubt the reconstruction would look "Nordic", only "Mediterranean" (European or Arab)
Do they not use paintings/depictions of the mummified person as a means of reference? (assuming hatshetput was depicted with dark skin)
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^If the latest Rameses II and his son's awkward looking facial reconstructions are anything to go by, NO!
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quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: ^If the latest Rameses II and his son's awkward looking facial reconstructions are anything to go by, NO!
Makes you wonder whether they're trying to convey sincere accuracy, or simply show off their facial imaging technology(i.e. via reconstructing a mummy's face into "real life" renderings). Posts: 214 | Registered: Feb 2006
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This is a great site now can you show me pictures of subsaharan Africans from which we KNOW are blacks so I can compare to these skeletons. I still don't know what to look for in "tropical body plans".
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Why don't YOU go find some pictures of skeletons that AREN'T black so that YOU can compare for YOURSELF? And here's a hint, given that she was BORN in Africa from INDIGENOUS AFRICANS, it would probably be a good bet that she was CLOSER to Africans physically than ANY OTHER TYPE. But of course, that is TOO OBVIOUS to begin with. Ohh, but that's right, Egypt is TOO SPECIAL to be African.
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^ Doug, don't even bother wasting your time with Vida. Not only is the guy apparentlly race-obsessed, he doesn't seem that bright either.
Anyway as I've said before, Discovery has been showing previews of its program Secrets of Egypt's Lost Queen premiering Sunday July 15th (est), and from what I've seen, the white actress doesn't look anywhere near like the tomb portraits. Heck, she doesn't even look Middle-Eastern.
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I've given up on a lot of these channels like Discovery and History. All they're doing is continuing to push the myth of a white Egypt. The only hope we have is in movies like 'Prince of Egypt' and 'Princess of the Sun'...where you have directors who will have the balls to challenge the status quo. All we need now is someone to make a live action movie with REAL dark-skinned actors!!!
Dammit, somebody call Spike Lee!!!
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^ Not all programs on educational networks like Discovery are bad at accurate portrayal. I have seen some impressive shows on the Discovery channel that had more accurate portrayals of ancient Egyptians like Nefertiti Ressurrected and Ramses: Wrath of God or Man-- all had black actors and actresses. I even saw a program on TLC about ancient Egypt that had [an unusually] high number of black actors and even played authentic more African sounding Egyptian music.
What type of actors they bring in really depends on people like the producers and directors. We actually had one of the directors for those Discovery programs post in this board before-- Borg. I think he was a great deal responsible for these accurate depictions.
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Not all programs on educational networks like Discovery are bad at accurate portrayal. I have seen some impressive shows on the Discovery channel that had more accurate portrayals of ancient Egyptians like Nefertiti Ressurrected and Ramses: Wrath of God or Man-- all had black actors and actresses. I even saw a program on TLC about ancient Egypt that had [an unusually] high number of black actors and even played authentic more African sounding Egyptian music.
What type of actors they bring in really depends on people like the producers and directors. We actually had one of the directors for those Discovery programs post in this board before-- Borg. I think he was a great deal responsible for these accurate depictions.
You're probably right. For some reason, I never saw all of Ramses: Wrath of God or Man, but I know all about Nefertiti: Ressurected. Do you remember the name of the TLC program?
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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^ No, unfortunately I don't remember the title of that TLC program, it was several years back. Although considering the cast of characters, you'd think it a show hard not to forget.
I remember that in the program Ramses: Wrath of God or Man, there was this hot actress who played Ramses' wife Nefertari. I thought she was from the Horn area, particulary Somalia, but Borg said she's actually from Morocco. (Most of the black actors are from North African countries, mainly Morocco). But of course the reconstruction of Ramses and his son were a little disappointing to say the least, and like someone said before, it's as if the reconstructions were somehow a counter (a kind of get-back at) to the Nefertiti reconstruction. In my opinion, they didn't even look real or that human-like (right here Obelisk):
I've also noticed a reduction in the number of black actors in the cast-- no doubt Hawass got a little bit more control of this production.
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Not all programs on educational networks like Discovery are bad at accurate portrayal. I have seen some impressive shows on the Discovery channel that had more accurate portrayals of ancient Egyptians like Nefertiti Ressurrected and Ramses: Wrath of God or Man-- all had black actors and actresses. I even saw a program on TLC about ancient Egypt that had [an unusually] high number of black actors and even played authentic more African sounding Egyptian music.
What is "authentic Egyptian music"? I like to imagine Ancient Egyptian music as having drums and chanting ("Circle of Life" stuff), but who can say for certain what it sounded like?
Posts: 7080 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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What is meant is that modern middle eastern music is not necessarily the same as ancient Egyptian music. Yet modern "middle eastern" music is what they play on these shows. The Egyptians did not use violin like instruments. They played harps, lyres, guitar like string instrument, double flutes, flutes, trumpets, clapped and sang and those are not the instruments played in the soundtracks. Like this music: http://www.classicalarabicmusic.com/traditional_arabic_music.htmPosts: 8895 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: What is meant is that modern middle eastern music is not necessarily the same as ancient Egyptian music. Yet modern "middle eastern" music is what they play on these shows. The Egyptians did not use violin like instruments. They played harps, lyres, guitar like string instrument, double flutes, flutes, trumpets, clapped and sang and those are not the instruments played in the soundtracks. Like this music: http://www.classicalarabicmusic.com/traditional_arabic_music.htm
I didn't even know they HAD violins in Southwest Asia.
Posts: 7080 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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I said violin like, meaning stringed instruments played with a bow instead of plucked with the fingers. There are no such instruments depicted in ancient Egyptian art that I know of, but modern music used for these soundtracks often features such instruments. Technically they aren't violins but ancient precursors of the violin.
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quote:Originally posted by Tyrannosaurus: What is "authentic Egyptian music"? I like to imagine Ancient Egyptian music as having drums and chanting ("Circle of Life" stuff), but who can say for certain what it sounded like?
^ We discussed this topic before. That the "Cicle of Life" (LOL) type music you speak of is stereotypical and does not reflect the diversity of African music. There are perhaps as many different styles of music in Africa as there are culture groups. And to make such a stereotype is like making classical Chinese music representative of all Asian music.
We don't know how Egyptian songs sounded like exactly, but we have somewhat an idea how the music sounded by the musical instruments they played and certain styles of music rural Fellahin and modern Nubians play today. And yes, they had more percussion and drums.
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How can you tell her age of death by looking at her?? All mummies look the same way (shriveled up) even if they died young.![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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Doug, don't even bother wasting your time with Vida. Not only is the guy apparentlly race-obsessed, he doesn't seem that bright either.
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