posted
I want to adress some issues raised by Wally about Arab imperilism. I will begin to say what I agree and disagree with. The Arabs have somewhat taken Egypt by storm and encforced a type of colonial mentality that is very rampant in their history. However,do I think that all Arabs should be lumped into this category? No!
Before the Arabs came to Kmt, Kmt was already under the hegemony of Greco-Roman Macedonians. Before the Macedonians, you had the Persians,Assyrians and other various groups that came to Egypt and colonized it. Persians divided Egypt up in satraps[these were like nomes],Greco-Romans divided Egypt into nomes[using the same sepat system as the Kemetians],and later Byzantines continued these pratices.
Know during the Greco-Roman occupation, you had many revolts in both the Delta and in southern Upper Egypt. Area like Middle Egypt had Greco-Roman settlements and were awash with foreigners. Places like Ptolemais[near modern day Sohag],Arisone,Karanis,Hermopolis were all located in these regions. Alot of these areas were areas where Greeks,Syrians,native Egyptians,and Jews freely intermingled.
The most devestating demise to Egypt was the taxation levied on rural Egyptian peasents by Greco-Roman officals. The Romans were so brutal in their taxiation of rural Egyptian fellahin that many would often kidnap the mummies of family members of the Kemetians and hold them for ransom. Of course, there were those Egyptians who Hellenized and became incorporated into the fabric of Greco-Roman society.
The big contreversies on this period are the following:
Did the rural Egyptians flee to other parts of Africa? Independent Egyptologist Moustafa Gadalla seems to think so,and he wrote his book Exiled Egyptian for this purpose.
Were the Christians during this period indigenous or foreign interlopers?
How did Christianity get to Egypt and was it embraced by the native Kemetians?
Where the Arabs welcomed by the indigenous Egyptians when they invaded Egypt in 630 AD?
We shall rush forward past the Greco-Roman period and into the Byzantine and Islamic periods. It appears just before the invasion of the Arabs that two Christian communities within Egypt were feuding. The Melkite[largely Greek Christians] and the Coptic Orthodoxty. While these two groups were feuding, a large population of rural Upper Egyptians were still praticing their own tradition religions. Although, much of it might have been slightly sychrnized with Judeo-Christianity.
According to a hadith by phophet Mohammed[p.b.u.h.] he said ''You will invade Egypt,and when you invade Egypt you will treat the Egyptians as equals. For they are your brothers'' Knowing this Amr Ibn Alas came into Egypt with about 20,000 Arab milita,and its claimed by most historians that the Egyptians put up little resistance.
Before this the Coptic patriarch Benjammin had been in hiding from the Melkites. The patriarch that ruled Egypt at this time was a foreign installed one by the name of Cyrus. The only account we have from the side of the Egyptians is John bishop of Nikku who wrote exclusively about the invasion of the nile valley by the Arabs.
After the Arabs conquered Egypt from the Melkites Benjammin the Coptic patriarch was know free to return in peace. He had been hiding in Upper Egypt.
Know after such invasion the rulership of Egypt was within the hands of the Arabs. The Arabs divided people up into different categories:al-dhimmi[people of the book like Jews,Christians,etc.] Mawali[these were non-Arab converts to Islam]. The Dhimmi was offically under the protection of the caliph as long as they paid the jizya tax.
During this period Egypt was under the rulership of Arabs but many of the local tax collectors remained indigenous Egyptians. Their rulership was from Mecca untill the advent of the Umayyad and Abbasid Caliph.
During the various Abbasid and Umayyad caliph, there were various revolts and uprisings in parts of Upper Egypt and the Delta. Our knowleadge of these uprisings and revolts come down to us from the writings of such Arab historians like al-Maqrizi,al-Kindi,Ibn Khaldun,al-Mas'udi and others.
With discussing the fate of Egypt, we should also discuss Nubia. Nubia,unlike the Egyptians, resisted the Arab invasion further southward. Such skill in archery was noted by the Arabs that they were called the ''pupil smitters'' because of their accuracy. Many times the Nubians formed as oppenents to the Arabs and later the Ayyubids and Mamluks.
[This message has been edited by ausar (edited 17 March 2005).]
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
There is a view of history, which for obvious reasons will never be an Arab or ws.t perspective - that Nile Valley civilisation has been in conflict with Asiatic intruders since pre-dynastic times.
In this view the Narmer Pallette which documents not only the unification of Km.t, but also the annihiliation of what is apparently a Levantine settlement in the delta referred to as the 'city of the abominables', is the first recorded evidence of this conflict.
The current conflict in Dafur Sudan is viewed as essentially extensive of this, oldest ongoing conflict, in human history.
posted
Yes, I know of the marsh people that lived in the Delta at the inception of Aha-Menes uniting Upper and Lower Egypt. If you study the Delta closely it appears that there were many settlements often of Mesopotamian origin particularly around Buto. The other groups appear Asiatic but others look like Khoisan people.
At the same time during the dyanstic period the Delta was constanly settled by Asiatics,Libyans,and even Minoans. I don't know if you have Ian Shaw's Oxford History of Ancient Egypt but there is some depictions of Asiatics with mush room type haircuts. He goes later to talk about them settling in the Delta.
Asiatics were not well liked by the Kemites but some were definately assimilated into Kemetian society. The same goes for the Libyan groups.
As far as the perpective of the west/Arab I tend to just look at evidence. I don't get bent upon on west or Arab history. I try to remain somewhat objective and around the middle.
Anyway, the reason why I started this thread was in responce to Wally's statements about Arab imperilism. I agree with some of his points but disagree with others.
I think that many posters on this forum if they studied Egypt after the pharaonic period they would understand why many Egyptians in Middle Egypt look like Arabs and also why modern Egypt is in the current situlation its in today.
We have an obvious gap in historical inquiry here.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Ausar, That's a good, general description of the events leading up to modern Egypt. (I don't understand the need to clarify the point that the colonial enemy is not "all Arabs."--That should be understood; Europeans struggled alongside Africans to free South Africa, Whites struggled alongside Blacks in the US to bring civil rights to southern Blacks...)
What I was describing is the political reality of modern Egypt as a settler colony dominated by foreigners of predominantly Arabian origin:
The official country name The Arab Republic of Egypt
The official language Arabic
The Governing Elite Here's a photo of the Egyptian Government. http://www.sis.gov.eg/eginfnew/politics/cabinet/html/pres02.htm Looks to me more like the "Arab government of Egypt" and looks about as reflective of the demographics of the general Egyptian population as did the Apartheid government of South Africa. The similarities are remarkable... (Could even one of them be a Saiyidi??)
Pop culture (ie, film) Movies are a popular art form and generally reflects the ideology of the dominant class in a society. The Egyptian film industry is the dominant industry in the Arab world: The stars of Egyptian films are Arabs and the plots reflect Arabian values and mores, take a look: http://www.egyptiancastle.com/movies/gallery/gallery.htm ...
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 17 March 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by ABAZA: ausar, the Ancient Egyptians were not Saints. In many ways, they were just as Barbaric as many of these so called Imperialistic Arabs and Europeans.
The Black Africans (Kush & Nubia) were made to grovel and bring gifts to the Egyptians.
They were considered inferior to the Egyptains, and all the pictures we have prove this same thing.
The only reason, Nubians and others would be depicted on the soles of shoes, is so that Egyptians can step on them as they walk around.
Therefore, to deny that the Egyptains were any less Savage than their neighbors, would be a denial of the truth!!
the way they look at the nubians change again once nubia became free and conquered egypt and later they viewed nubia as a protector against later invaders,but of course not all egyptians change thier views even if they are the slaves or servents of outsiders.some egyptians view the greeks and romans as a lower group,but to the romans and greeks they did not really care since the conquered egypt,of course some did rebelled but many that did rebelled were of more recent nubian origin in egypt but not all.
[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 17 March 2005).]
posted
Ausar, That's a good, general description of the events leading up to modern Egypt. (I don't understand the need to clarify the point that the colonial enemy is not "all Arabs."--That should be understood; Europeans struggled alongside Africans to free South Africa, Whites struggled alongside Blacks in the US to bring civil rights to southern Blacks...)
What I was describing is the political reality of modern Egypt as a settler colony dominated by foreigners of predominantly Arabian origin:
The official country name The Arab Republic of Egypt
The official language Arabic
The Governing Elite Here's a photo of the Egyptian Government. http://www.sis.gov.eg/eginfnew/politics/cabinet/html/pres02.htm Looks to me more like the "Arab government of Egypt" and looks about as reflective of the demographics of the general Egyptian population as did the Apartheid government of South Africa. The similarities are remarkable... (Could even one of them be a Saiyidi??)
Pop culture (ie, film) Movies are a popular art form and generally reflects the ideology of the dominant class in a society. The Egyptian film industry is the dominant industry in the Arab world: The stars of Egyptian films are Arabs and the plots reflect Arabian values and mores, take a look: http://www.egyptiancastle.com/movies/gallery/gallery.htm ...
P.S: I suggest anyone following this topic to Google "settler colony" to get a clear concept of what one is...
quote:ausar, the Ancient Egyptians were not Saints. In many ways, they were just as Barbaric as many of these so called Imperialistic Arabs and Europeans.
The Black Africans (Kush & Nubia) were made to grovel and bring gifts to the Egyptians
This is a huge misunderstanding on your part. The portion of Southern Upper Egypt was not ethnically different from those Nubians or Kushites to the south.
Many of the pharaohs of Egypt like the 12th dyansty and 18th dyansty was primarily Nubian in origin. What you have is people of s similar ethnicity fighting each other,but also retaining cultural ties.
I advise you to read the texts from the tomb of Harkhuf shows that diplomatic trading went on between the two groups.
quote:They were considered inferior to the Egyptains, and all the pictures we have prove this same thing.
The only reason, Nubians and others would be depicted on the soles of shoes, is so that Egyptians can step on them as they walk around.
Therefore, to deny that the Egyptains were any less Savage than their neighbors, would be a denial of the truth!!
Well, I already adressed the sandals. Most of the people depicted on the sandals were people from Upper Nubia and Libyans. .
Egyptians did not view Nubians any more inferior than the rest of their traditional enemies. Nubians migrated to Egypt and settled amongst the Egyptians in all periods of the dyansties. Its just that unasimilated foreigners were seen as isofret[chaos] vs. Ma'at]balance] and according to this they had to be balanced out by the pharaohs.
The colonization that the ancient Egyptians had was much different than the later British. Most of the districts in Egyptian colonies were governed by local princes often trained in the kap[a school for foreign children].
In the case of the Levant and Nubia most of the administration were local people and not colonial Egyptians. The exception was the King's son of Kush,and even sometimes he was chosen from the ranks of the local Nubians.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:any of the pharaohs of Egypt like the 12th dyansty and 18th dyansty was primarily Nubian in origin. What you have is people of s similar ethnicity fighting each other,but also retaining cultural ties.
During the Hyksos conflict the only allies of the Kememu were the Medijay [Beja] "Nubians".
"Only the medijay are with us!"
No man can settle down, when despoiled by the taxes of the Asiatics. I will grapple with him, that I may rip open his belly! My wish is to save Egypt and to smite the Asiatic! I went north because I was strong (enough) to attack the Asiatics through the command of Ammon, the just of counsels. My valiant army was in front of me like a blast of fire. The troops of the Madjoi [Beja] were on the upper part of our cabins, to seek out the Asiatics and to push back their positions. East and west had their fat, and the army foraged for things everywhere. I set out a strong troop of the Madjoi, while I was on the day's patrol Teti, the son of Pepi, within Nefrusi. I would not let him escape while I held back the Asiatics who had withstood Egypt. He made Nefrusi the nest of the Asiatics. I spent the night in my boat, with my heart happy. - Kamose inscription.
I find it inconceivable that the Theban-"Nubian" founders of the New Kingdom would think fondly of "Arabisation". Menes either for that matter.
posted
Wally, that is not a complete history. I was going to add more details later,because you also had the Fatimids who were a collective of Berber and Arabs. You had the Ayyubids who were mostly Kurdish people,and finally the Mamluks and Ottoman Turks who were mainly comprised of Turkish people. When Nasser overthrew King Farouk in 1954 Egypt was under a monarchy system and the elites were Turkish people.
Previously people like Mohammed Ali Pasha was Albanian. Most of the later rulers of Egypt were non-Arabic people.
During the Ottoman period many Fellahin in the Delta rose up to very high status. When Nasser later came into power these same prominent families were given seats in the parliment.
Alot of the elites in modern Egypt,Wally, are not Arabic at all but are actually Mamluks and Ottoman officals pensioned off by Nasser. After that many are also Syrians and other Levantine people who migrated into Egypt around the 30's-40's. The whole ideal of Pan-Arabism come from Syrian Christians within Egypt.
Here is a book I recommend you read on this book:
The Pasha's Peasants : Land, Society and Economy in Lower Egypt, 1740-1858 (Cambridge Middle East Library) by Kenneth M. Cuno, et al
Wally, what you might not know is that even in Upper Egypt there is a hierarchy with the Fellahin on the bottom and Arab bedouin and Ashraf on top. Most goverment officals from Upper Egypt tend to come from the Ashraf.
If you don't know who the ashraf are then I will break the terms down for you:
Ashraf: a tribe in Upper Egypt that claims desent from the phophet Mohammed[p.b.u.h.]
Bedouin tribes: These are various Arab groups brought into Egypt by the various caliph that reigned.
Fellahin: these are indigenous tillers of the soil Here is more information:
The authority of central governments in Upper Egypt was cemented through clientelist ties with leading families of the ashraf and arab groups. Even the Nasserist regime did not substantially undermine this political-administrative arrangement. Although land reform benefited peasant farmers to a degree, members of the landed classes used a variety of means to retain much of their holdings. [b]Cairo continued to staff the higher ranks of the local police and security apparatus with personnel from the ashraf and arabs.(29)
Religion was central to the development of Upper Egyptian society. The ashraf claimed direct descent from the Prophet, while the arabs traced their lineage to a group of tribes from Arabia. On the other hand, the status of the fellahin rested on the belief that they descended from Egypt's pre-Islamic community and had converted to Islam, a history that placed them inescapably beneath both the ashraf and arabs.(30) Copts have occupied an ambivalent position in the social scale; as Christians they are considered inferior to Muslims but their individual status effectively depends on more material criteria.[/b] http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2501/is_3_21/ai_57476490/pg_3
Know for your other points:
quote:The Arab Republic of Egypt
I agree with you here about this. Infact, if I had my choice I would rename the country back to Kmt or the Republic of Kmt.
The person who named Egypt this was actually Nasser and Sadat. If you read my previous post you will understand why Nasser named it such.
quote:Arabic language
This might have been forced on the Egyptians. I will agree,but there is an Egyptian linguist who wrote a book named Bayoumi Qandil that says the colloquial Arabic that modern Egyptians speak is largely from the Late phase of the pharaonic language.
quote:
[quote]The Governing Elite Here's a photo of the Egyptian Government. http://www.sis.gov.eg/eginfnew/politics/cabinet/html/pres02.htm Looks to me more like the "Arab government of Egypt" and looks about as reflective of the demographics of the general Egyptian population as did the Apartheid government of South Africa. The similarities are remarkable... (Could even one of them be a Saiyidi??)
Not many Saidi but many of the people in the goverment are Lower Egyptian Copts. Some are Fellahin from the Delta. Most of the representatives for Aswan where I come from tend to be either Ababda or Ja'afra. Ababda are Beja people that are Arabized. Ja'afra are nomadic bedouins from northern Africa.
In the future there might be more Fellahin in the goverment.
Also,Wally, many of the elite in the goverment in Egypt have Turkish or Circassian ancestry. Not so much Arabs. They definately do proclaim an Arabic agenda though.
The human rights in Egypt is terrible for both bahary and saidi people.
quote:
[quote]Pop culture (ie, film) Movies are a popular art form and generally reflects the ideology of the dominant class in a society. The Egyptian film industry is the dominant industry in the Arab world: The stars of Egyptian films are Arabs and the plots reflect Arabian values and mores, take a look: http://www.egyptiancastle.com/movies/gallery/gallery.htm[/quote]
Yes, most the the actors and actress in Egyptian cinema tend to be either Lower Egyptians or foreigners like Lebanese and Syrians. This is the same with the Soap Operas in Egypt. You go to telemundo and you see the lightest population of Hispanics. This has more to do with racism across the world than with Arab ideaology.
In early movies Saidi and Nubians are protrayed as bafoons. This is so bad that many people just laugh when they hear the term Saidi.
The favoriet singer for most people in Egypt is Mohammed Mounir. He is a Nubian. The other one would be Kazeem el-Saher[an Iraqi].
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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A king will come from the South, Ameny, the just)fied, by name, Son of a woman of Nubia, child of Upper Egypt.
He will take the white crown, He will wear the red crown; He will join the Two Mighty Ones, He will please the Two Lords with what they wish, With field-circler in his fist, oar in his grasp. Rejoice, O people of his time, The son of man will make his name for all eternity! The evil-minded, the treason-plotters, They suppress their speech in fear of him; Asiatics will fall to his sword
Rebels to his wrath, traitors to his might, As the serpent on his brow subdues the rebels for him.
One will build the Walls-of-the-Ruler, To bar Asiatics from entering Egypt; They shall beg water as supplicants, So as to let their cattle drink. Then Order will return to its seat, While Chaos is driven away. Rejoice he who may behold, he who may attend the king! And he who is wise will libate for me, When he sees fulfilled what I have spoken!
posted
Ausar, You have posted some critically useful information on a topic rarely discussed. And to summarize it all, I'll borrow the statement made by rasol:"Nile Valley civilisation has been in conflict with Asiatic intruders since pre-dynastic times." And in modern times, the Asiatic intruders have apparently and temporarily triumphed.
--It's interesting also, the transition from the rule of the Mameluks to that of the Arabs..
--On the colloquial Arabic being related to Pharaonic Egyptian, could this not be a case of a kind of "pidgin" Arabic being spoken, like the "pidgin" English of West Africa?
--The Telemundo example is a good one also, I've watched this channel and have noticed how it mimics the 'Anglo' look and all...
It seems Abaza wants the ancient Egyptians to hate the Nubians more than the Asiatics!
The Egyptians saw all foreigners, especially those that were unassimilated as a threat! What's funny is that despite Abaza's claims, it seems there was more hostility towards Asiatics than towards Nubians!
quote:The Black Africans (Kush & Nubia) were made to grovel and bring gifts to the Egyptians.
So! Many black African kingdoms did the same with their enemies, who were also black Africans. I suppose this was because of race! LOL
quote:The only reason, Nubians and others would be depicted on the soles of shoes, is so that Egyptians can step on them as they walk around.
Again, so! You're forgetting that Libyans and Asiatics were also depicted on the soles.
quote:They were considered inferior to the Egyptains, and all the pictures we have prove this same thing.
No! They were considered dangerous enemies of Egypt that had to be defeated and quelled.
Also, this does not in anyway negate the fact that some of the greatest Egyptian dynasties had some Nubian ancestry, or the fact that it seems like the only foreign wives of the Pharoahs that had the chance of becoming "Great Wife" or queen were Nubian women!
Many Egyptologists now accept the fact that the Egyptians did not view Nubia as their inferior, but on the contrary they viewed it as a formidable rival whose competition posed a serious threat to Egyptian dominance of the Nile Valley!!
quote:One of the lesser but well-known Egyptian monuments is an inscription on a large stele erected by Sesostris (set-Usert) III (Khahaure), c. 1870 B.C., on which he forbids Nubians to ascend the Nile and states the Egyptian opinion of them: "Nubians cower before mere words, and one has only to challenge them to make them retreat; if one attacks them, they run. But if one draws back, they become aggressive. They are not a race worth consideration. They are degraded creatures and cowardly." (11)
So. The Egyptians said a lot worse about Asiatics!
quote:No man can settle down, when despoiled by the taxes of the Asiatics. I will grapple with him, that I may rip open his belly! My wish is to save Egypt and to smite the Asiatic!
or
quote:We will cut the throats of the Asiatics and drink the wine of their vineyards..
Many Pharoahs even nicknamed themselves the "Throat-cutter of Asia"
So what are your reasons?
[This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 17 March 2005).]
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: fyi: The quote that was cited by Aboso is also inaccurate. He gets most of his jibberish from stormfront or similar supremacists sources.
HA! I thought as much, considering the type of words used in the quote! The Egyptians described the Nubians as excellent warriors who were skillful in combat as they were with the bow and arrow. This was why they posed such a threat to the Egyptians! And especially after they found out that the Hyksos tried to align themselves with Kush.
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posted
There is oft repeated tale of the Thebans capturing a Hyksos messenger proposing the alliance betwen the Hyksos and the Kushites which would divide Km.t between them - what is seldom mentioned it that is is likely that the Medijay, which wst scholarship would come to call the "Nubian" militia with reference to the later 18th Dynasty, who captured the Hyksos messenger in the first place and who fought on the side of Km.t against the Hyksos , and probably Kush as well.
The Medijay are ancestors of the modern Beja.
These people:
Kmt had extremely complicated relationships with Nations to the South throughout its history.
From Km.t's perspective the south, which we call Nubia, was the land of revered ancestors, hated rivals, uneasy allies, respected brethren, contemptuous vassals, sanctified saviors, and sole survivors.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 17 March 2005).]
Kmt had extremely complicated relationships with Nations to the South throughout its history.
From Km.t's perspective the south, which we call Nubia, was the land of revered ancestors, hated rivals, uneasy allies, respected brethren, contemptuous vassals, sanctified saviors, and sole survivors.
This is why one has to examine their relations at specific timeframes. Many a times, Nubians actually helped strengthen Kemet against invaders, and at other times, the Kemetians kept an eye on them, as you pointed out.
quote:Originally posted by Super car: This is why one has to examine their relations at specific timeframes. Many a times, Nubians actually helped strengthen Kemet against invaders, and at other times, the Kemetians kept an eye on them, as you pointed out.
Also depends as always on 'who' is referred to as Nubian and who is not. It's not an AE term. It's a term modern 'scholarship' has chosen to describe different people
ps - I know you know, but it has to be said whenever discussing "Nubians" in ancient history.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Also depends as always on 'who' is referred to as Nubian and who is not. It's not an AE term. It's a term modern 'scholarship' has chosen to describe different people
quote:Originally posted by EGyPT2005: Correction, you mean "The Black Africans (Kush, Nubia & Southern Upper Egyptians)"
Black Africans were not limited to Upper Egypt, nor are they today. Do a search on our freind Thought2 to seem some examples, but early Upper and Lower Egyptians came from the same stock of people.
quote:Originally posted by Kem-Au: Black Africans were not limited to Upper Egypt, nor are they today. Do a search on our freind Thought2 to seem some examples, but early Upper and Lower Egyptians came from the same stock of people.
...which is tropical Africa. Studies to date all seem to corroborate this. I am still waiting for one that states otherwise.
[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 17 March 2005).]
posted
From the film industry to the goverment, thats controled by the elite. What i ve noticed tho is that egyptians whom are like the ppl u speak of actaully think they are decandants of the AE and are Arab at the same time. i dont know how that works. But Pan arabism has brain washed ppl and ppl really don't know what they really are. History has somehow been erased of the differant invasions that happened and the differant ppl that poured into Egypt to the point that the elite class think they been livin there for ever. There are so many fact to prove that the AE did begin as a black civilization, and that show how the population has changed. Remember back than the popultion was no more than 3 million. Now it is 80 or even 90 million. And the AE just did not have a baby boom. This shows u how much foriegners have poured into egypt. I believe the population is still changeing as more ppl pour in. With more than 5 million sudanese and some 4 million of ehtiopians, somalians, etc.. i think the delta region population is in for a change maybe not the elit but maybe the lower class(Elite in any society will usaully want to whiten thier off spring, i know of many elite egyptians who are into merrying a white blonde, we see this today in any society from Brazil, Bolivia, etc..).
WIth the diversity of Egypt today, their is no way to give egpyptians one ethnic background("ARAB"}. I read many articles that would say "ARABS now occupy Egypt", as if its natives just disapeared or somthing. Even the ones of turkish, persian, assyrian decant how are they "ARAB".
[This message has been edited by multisphinx (edited 18 March 2005).]
What I was describing is the political reality of modern Egypt as a settler colony dominated by foreigners of predominantly Arabian origin:
The official country name The Arab Republic of Egypt
The official language Arabic
The Governing Elite Here's a photo of the Egyptian Government. http://www.sis.gov.eg/eginfnew/politics/cabinet/html/pres02.htm Looks to me more like the "Arab government of Egypt" and looks about as reflective of the demographics of the general Egyptian population as did the Apartheid government of South Africa. The similarities are remarkable... (Could even one of them be a Saiyidi??)
Pop culture (ie, film) Movies are a popular art form and generally reflects the ideology of the dominant class in a society. The Egyptian film industry is the dominant industry in the Arab world: The stars of Egyptian films are Arabs and the plots reflect Arabian values and mores, take a look: http://www.egyptiancastle.com/movies/gallery/gallery.htm ...
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 17 March 2005).]
Wally
Have you ever been in Egypt? I think you would be very disappointed if you saw the real situation ... It´s not any surprise that the official language of Egypt is Arabic, because Egyptians speak Arabic as their mother´s tongue!
I also don´t understand your definition of the word "sa3edee". Sa3edee is eveyone who lives in el Sa3eed(the area between Beni Suef and Aswan), no matter how he looks like.
These people look like your stereotypical Egyptian elite "Arabs" and they are Sa3ayeda and poor:
Many Egyptian pop-stars tend to be light-skined, but it doesn´t mean that they are less Egyptians than their dark-skined compatriots. There are many quite ordinary Egyptians who are light-skined.
Sorry dude, but if you think that 80% of Egyptians look like Ethiopians,then you are very misinformed. Your image of Egypt as a "settler colony dominated by foreigners of predominantly Arabian origin" and mostly inhabited by dark-skined Ethiopian looking black African Sa3ayeda has nothing to do with real Egypt.
[This message has been edited by Ayazid (edited 18 March 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by Ayazid: Vision problems? The problem is that your question was directed to ABAZA
I believe the vision problem is on your end. Take another look; you can't miss it. Let me know, if you have a problem finding it. I'll be happy to assist you.
posted
If you think that the fact that most Sa3ayeda in Middle Egypt look Middle Eastern and most Egyptians don´t look like East Africans is a "wild claim", then it´s your problem and not myne.
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quote:Originally posted by Ayazid: If you think that the fact that most Sa3ayeda in Middle Egypt look Middle Eastern and most Egyptians don´t look like East Africans is a "wild claim", then it´s your problem and not myne.
This doesn't answer the question that was posed. I still want an answer to that question, unless you don't have an answer. Again, let me know if that is the case.
quote:Originally posted by ABAZA: The number of Arab settlers in Egypt was quite small in comparison to the large Egyptian population, that whatever type inter-marriage had little effect on the makeup of the native Egyptians. Also, the same can be said about many of the other foreign groups or elements that settled in Egypt. Egypt has always had a larger population in comparison to its neighbors. I think the one thing that most people don't realize is that the Native Egyptians probably got darker as they had more and more contact with people from Nubia and the Sudan, rather than the other way around.
That is why the Black admixture can easily be seen in many parts of Egypt, especically in the Upper Sa'eed, but other parts as well.
If you start out with a native Black African stock, there is no way you'll get Caucasoid looking people with small Black admixture, but you will get is people like the Modern Nubians, Northern Sudanese, Somalis, and Eithiopians. Now, on the other hand, when you start out with Caucasoid stock or Middle Eastern people if you like, you'll get people like the Modern Egyptians, Libyans, Saudis, Syrians, Moroccans, etc.
People in the Northern Mediterranean countries have some Black African and Middle Eastern heritage as well, as an admixture, but because they're closer to the rest of Europe, the effects are quite small.
This text was written by ABAZA.
It seems that you have really some vision problems supercar (and maybe also some psychical?).
Look at those photos above. These people could pass everywhere in the Middle East as locals, however they would greatyl stand out everywhere in Subsaharan Africa. They look non-negroid. If you don´t know how does an average Iraqi or Yemeni look like then go and learn buddy! Most Egyptians really don´t look like Ethiopians.
[This message has been edited by Ayazid (edited 18 March 2005).]
Look at those photos above. These people could pass everywhere in the Middle East as locals, however they would greatyl stand out everywhere in Subsaharan Africa. They look non-negroid. If you don´t know how does an average Iraqi or Yemeni look like then go and learn buddy!
Ayazid, you have an interesting way of 'not' answering the question posed, don't you? You and I both know this doesn't answer the question put forth.
quote:Originally posted by Ayazid: This text was written by ABAZA.
It seems that you have really some vision problems supercar (and maybe also some psychical?).
Okay, I mistook you for Abaza, but who can blame me? Your ways are hard to put apart.
Speaking of psychology, anyone who spams the board with photos of what appears to be the result of apparently altered populations (which has been seen countless times now) as an exact replica of the ancient one, has more psychological issues than they think.
[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 18 March 2005).]
posted
Wally, what you have to understand is that infiltraition of Arabs was everywhere there were large amounts of revolts. Arabs were not the only group that came to Cairo during the Middle Ages. Other groups like Armenians and Syrian Christians,Berbers,Sudanese,and even Greeks all came to Cairo.
The Arabs were dispersed all across parts of Egypt.and it was mostly in Middle and the Delta:
Here are some examples for you Wally from various book references I have collected:
Arab colonization began with the conquest ,and was encouraged by the Ummayyad Caliphs,notably by Hisham[reigned 724-43],who in 727 authorized the planned migration and settlement of several thousand Arabs of the Yemenite tribe of Qays in the Nile Valley.
During the eight century and ninth century large numbers of Arab tribesmen,mainly of Yemenite origin,migrate to Egypt,where many of them settled on land. page 457
Harris, J R, ed. (1971) The legacy of Egypt. Oxford
Throughout Upper Egypt,there is strong tendency toward organized extended family groups organized around kin links in the male line. Ancestry in the male line is also important,and is expressed in the way in which personal names are given----'''Muhammed the son of Ibrahim the son of Abdullah the son of Aderrahman'' and so on.
In Minya and Asyut,many villages have several dominant extended families which combine land wealth and educational capital with self conscioness about genelogical connection.
The most significant house of the cillage of Musha,near Asyut ,is called ''Bait Abidin''[the house of Abdin''] and recently has provided much of the political leadership of the village.
In ''deep Upper Egypt'',esepcially from Sohag south,this pattern acquires the label of the ''tribe''[qabila] and often extends beyond a village to include an entire region[see Nielsen this volume].
For instance, the area between Sohag and Qena is dominated by the best -known of these tribes,the Hawwara, which claims bedouin ancestry.
The area arund Qena is dominated by the Ashraf,a tribe claming descent from the phophet Mohammed.
Further south,the area around Kom Ombo and Edfu is the home of the Ja'afrah tribe.
These tribes mostly have a political function of providing leadership including members of the national Parilment as well as village leaders,and they join together to support their membners in conflicts with outsiders.
This is a source of feuds. tribes are not culturally and linguistically distinct,and they are generally only one of the social elements in the villages and regions where they live. They can also serve as marriage pools`
in that women,in particular are encouraged to marry inside their ''tribe''
The dominant tribes identified above are thus part of a regional social fabric that include lesser status[and smaller tribes reffered to as ''Arab'' or ''peasent'' tribes.
There are clear status distinctions here. these lesser tribes should defer to the leadership of the dominant tribes.
Probabaly in most places the Christain groups would rank about there In some areas there is even a third rung status,including the more marginal tribe with craft and their specializations[see Saad 1998, this volume]
Some of these groups could be described as ''caste like'' in that they are occupationally defined ,endogamous,and membership is hereditary.
page 20-21
Upper Egypt Life Along the Nile
Nicolas S. Hopkins
According to al-Kindi, the fisc acted to address two of these problems evident in the Qurra and other early documents-- the reliability of local agents and the shortage of labour. First, starting in 99/717 ,Coptic village officals--those individuals who apportioned the districts tax quoata and were also local tax collectors---was replaced by Muslims.[40]. The latest documentary attestation of a Christian provincial govenor is infact in 716-17[41]
Lower-level Christian officals continued to be documented well beyond the sixth/twelfth century. Second, in 109/727-8 the state began to relocated Arabs from Syria to the eastern Delta in Egypt.[42]
One could refer to this as forced tenture. The state forced tenture upon farmers, so that there would be crops to tax, while the farmers received subsistence and any surplus.[43] The success of these reforms-bringing in Arab administrators and Arab sharecroppers is highly questionable. Al-Kindi tells us that Copts in Upper Egypt wadged wars against tax officals[ummal], in 119/737 and in 121/739, he reports that relocated Arabs also revolted,refusing to pay tax.[44]
Copts revolted again in 150/767,expelling tax officals [ummal]. To recap briefly what we know about the agritcultural tax system prior to the apperance of the first offical leases or tax bills; assement was crude, rent is not mentioned; tax was levied and collected in kind[dariba] and in money[jizya]; local non-Arab residents acted as collectors,apportioners and guarantors of a district's tax quota; there was individual liability rather than communal to the fisc for taxes.
page 245
40. Nassar[1959],90,correcting the edition by Guest,69 where the Greek meizoteroi transliterated into Arabic was read by the editor as mawarith inheritances: Meizoteroi also acted as judical officals,Rouillard[1928] 55,156
41. Gascou and Worp[1982] 90 42. Nassar [1959],109 subanno
43. Abbot[1965],21-35 citing the same account recorded in al-Kindi and al-Maqrizi, writes about the establishment of this colony of qaysites as having been 'a remarkably sucessful agritcultural community centered in Bilbays and the surrounding districts [p.29].
44. Sawirus[PO 5,101], has a reference to these Arabs but he is unaware of their origins.
Agriculture in Egypt From Pharaonic to Modern Times edited by Alan K Bowman & Eugene Rogan
Reprinted 2001
Published for the British Academy by Oxford University Press
The overthorw of the Umayyad dyansty in 132/750 marked the end of the ''Arab Kingdom''.
Since the Abbasid revolution[78] had been supported by disconected Arabs and ,Mawli,[79], the new regime tried to reconcile the different interests of the two fractions.
The caliph remained an Arab and paid respect to ''Arabdom'' but signs of change were apparent.
The prracetorian guards of the new regime were the Khurasanis , that is , a mixture of Arabs and Persians,but were no longer recruited purely from Arab warriors;indeed , the Arab warrior caste was stripped little by little of all its privilages;pensions were only paid to those in active service, and even they were ultimately replaced by Turkish slaves.
Sensing this change Arab tribemen began to settle down as cultivators, or to return to nomadic life,while some ,unable to accept the new situation ,drifted away into new lands.
The Mawali were no longer despised , and soon, as Mslim, Arabic citizens,[80] they were integrated with the Arab ''aristocrats''.
West of Persia the process of Arabization and Islamization reached such a degree that the term Arab almost lost its ethnic significance.
page 34
78.Kewis,Arabs,80,84,92-3 and ''Abbasids'',EI,2,I, 19-20
79. Broadly speaking the Mawali [singular Mawld] are non-Arab Muslims ; for a detailed definition see Lewis,Arab, 70 .
80.Ibid .,93
The Arabs and the Sudan
Yusuf Fadl Hassan
The Judham Arabs ,[148] a branch of Kahlan, the south Arabian tribe, was one of the first tribes that accompanied 'Amr ibn-al As and settled in the eastern Hawf in Lower Egypt.
Salah al-Din al -Ayyubid enfeoffed the Tayy Arab warriors with the land belonging to the Judham,[149], some of whome were probably compelled to drift southwards.
page 164
Qalqashandi ,Qala'id,12B-13 A
Yusuf Fadal Hassan
Sudan and the Arabs
Caliph al-Mu'tasin inaugrated his rule by dispatching a order to his govenor in Egypt to stirke off the names of all Arabs from the register of pensions and to stop paying their salaries.[85] This was indeed a turning point in the hsitory of the Arabs in Egypt. In short, their service as fighters was no longer needed; they were replaced by turkish military slaves or Mamluks[owned]. Al-Mu'Tasim recruited large numbers for his personal bodyguard, and exmployed some to crush the Qaysite rebels in Egypt, three years before there was a need for the mass of the Khurasni troops, the cheif support of the ''Abbasid regine, were either Arabized or had established their own petty states within the Empire.
page 36
85.Ibn Taghri, Nujum,11,223
The mile-wide necropolis falls mostly within the present village of Qurna,inhabited by the desendants of Horobat warrior who have arrived to settle there in the thirteenth century as tomb robbers,an occupation many still follow.
page XXIII
Shahhat,an Egyptian by Richard Critchfield
Al-Qahira Literally meaning "the Victorious" , al-Qahira was Egypt's fourth Islamic capital after al-Fustat, al-Askar and al-Qataii. Al-Qahira is today called Cairo among English speakers. The fortified princely city built by the Fatimids in 969 A.D. and completed in 971 A.D. was divided in four quarters by the Fatimid army, and encompassing communities of Greeks, ethnic Europeans, Armenians, Berbers, Sudanese and Turks. The core of the city Bayn al-Qasrayn ("Between the Two Palaces") was a square separating the Eastern and Western palace that was halfway along its main street (Now Sharia al-Muizz - Walk 1) that stretched from Bab al-Futuh North to Bab Zuwayla South. http://www.aucegypt.edu/walking_tours/cairo/glossary/glossary.html
In discussing the people, Nabulsi divides the population of Fayyum into Bedouins[Arabs] and settled folk,[24] the former being far mor numerous than the latter. The thirteenth-century Fayyum population was dominated by three lineages. First in importance were the Bani Kilab, a great tribe of northern Syria. Second were the Bani 'Ajlan. At a significant but distant third came the Lawatas, a North Africa Berber tribe.[25]
Virtually every Fayyum village was dominated by a branch of one of these three big tribes.[26] In general , the Bani Kilab dominated the central southern and western areas of the Fayyum, the Bani 'Ajlan in the east and north, while the Lawatas mostly dwelt in villages along the Lahun Gap[27]. They were all, of course, Muslims by religion, but Christians minorities in some villages are indicated by the villages being required to pay the poll-tax on Christians[al-jawali,e.g., 46,63, 68]
24. See esp. Chapter 5, 12-14
25. Ashtor[1976],206, cf. 187, 285, 366, n. 9
26. Salmon[1901b], 34-6 lists the tribes and their branches . One exception is the village of Abuksa[46], the majority of whose population were settled folk [hadarat], with an Arab minority from the Jawwab branch of the Bani Kilab. And there were others.
reference
Chapter 13 Fayyum Agriculture at the End of the Ayyubid Era: Nabulsi?s Survey, James G Keenan
Source:
Agriculture in Egypt From Pharaonic to Modern Times edited by Alan K Bowman & Eugene Rogan
Reprinted 2001
Published for the British Academy by Oxford University Press
ISBN 0-19-726183-3
Indeed,groups of Arab milita,particulary from the tribes of Tayy' joined the Ayyubid army to fight the Crusades. For their support Salah al-Din rewarded them with rich lands of the Judham, many of whom had begun to drift away.[45]
page 99
Yusef Fodl Hassan
Sudan the Arabs
The Fatimids were generlly well disposed towards the Arabs and might have shown special favours to the Qurayshite clans,specifically inorder to win their good will and support.[15]
The Fatimids welcomed the Banu 'Umar, the Banu -I'Zubayr, and the Banu Talha and some of the desendants of Ja'far al Sadiq. All these clans were settled in the region of Ashmunyn, where they formed a Qurayshite confederacy, from that time on, the region became known as Blad Quraysh or the land of Quraysh.
This area was previously peopled by the tribes of Baliyy and Juhayna, who were pushed southward by the armed forces of the Fatimids.[16]
page 94
15. Maqrizi,Baydn,121-2
16.Ibid,32-3
The Arabs and the Sudan
From the Seventh to the Early Sixteenth Century
[This message has been edited by ausar (edited 18 March 2005).]
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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I think that many posters on this forum if they studied Egypt after the pharaonic period they would understand why many Egyptians in Middle Egypt look like Arabs and also why modern Egypt is in the current situlation its in today.
**We have an obvious gap in historical inquiry here**.
On this point, we very much agree.
In fact, the wealth of information you provided above, is an eye opener for anyone who seeks objectivity.
quote:Wally, what you have to understand is that infiltraition of Arabs was everywhere there were large amounts of revolts. Arabs were not the only group that came to Cairo during the Middle Ages. Other groups like Armenians and Syrian Christians,Berbers,Sudanese,and even Greeks all came to Cairo
Something that also must be kept in mind is the population history of Km.t.
During much of the Old Kingdom there were less than 5 million inhabitants.
The population of Egypt actually declined several times during the post Dynastic Arab era falling to a few million as late as the 1700's, and then exploding [mostly in lower egypt] over the past 200 years.
No certainty about the population 2,000 years ago can be derived from simplistic observation re. the present population.
One needs to examine, as Ausar has done in this thread, the historical context and cultural legacy.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 18 March 2005).]
Have you ever been in Egypt? I think you would be very disappointed if you saw the real situation ... It´s not any surprise that the official language of Egypt is Arabic, because Egyptians speak Arabic as their mother´s tongue!
I also don´t understand your definition of the word "sa3edee". Sa3edee is eveyone who lives in el Sa3eed(the area between Beni Suef and Aswan), no matter how he looks like.
These people look like your stereotypical Egyptian elite "Arabs" and they are Sa3ayeda and poor:
Many Egyptian pop-stars tend to be light-skined, but it doesn´t mean that they are less Egyptians than their dark-skined compatriots. There are many quite ordinary Egyptians who are light-skined.
Sorry dude, but if you think that 80% of Egyptians look like Ethiopians,then you are very misinformed. Your image of Egypt as a "settler colony dominated by foreigners of predominantly Arabian origin" and mostly inhabited by dark-skined Ethiopian looking black African Sa3ayeda has nothing to do with real Egypt.
[This message has been edited by Ayazid (edited 18 March 2005).]
posted
It is extremely difficult trying to hold an intelligent discussion with the constant and moronic interruptions to the logical flow of the topic being discussed. But let us try anyway...
For Ausar, Kem-Au, rasol, multisphinx, super car, ...,
(Note: Items in bold are my own interjections and emphasis)
Ausar writes:
quote: you also had the Fatimids who were a collective of Berber(Africans) and Arabs (Arabians). You had the Ayyubids who were mostly Kurdish people,and finally the Mamluks and Ottoman Turks who were mainly comprised of Turkish people. When Nasser overthrew King Farouk in 1954 Egypt was under a monarchy system and the elites were Turkish people. Previously people like Mohammed Ali Pasha was Albanian. Most of the later rulers of Egypt were non-Arabic people (from Asia).
During the Ottoman period many Fellahin in the Delta rose up to very high status. When Nasser (an Arab)later came into power these same prominent families were given seats in the parliament. Alot of the elites in modern Egypt,Wally, are not Arabic at all but are actually Mamluks and Ottoman (Turks!) officials pensioned off by Nasser. After that many are also Syrians (Asians)and other (Asiatic)Levantine people who migrated into Egypt around the 30's-40's. The whole ideal of Pan-Arabism come from Syrian Christians within Egypt.
Ausar also added:
quote: Wally, what you have to understand is that infiltration of Arabs was everywhere there were large amounts of revolts. Arabs were not the only group that came to Cairo during the Middle Ages. Other groups like Armenians and Syrian Christians,Berbers,Sudanese,and even Greeks all came to Cairo.
Ausar, What you are, on the other hand, describing here is a population pattern of settlement. I am discussing political colonization and the subjugation of an indigenous population, neither the numerically insignificant African Berbers nor the African Sudanese have had any political impact on the modern state of Egypt. Here is a definition of a settler colony, and then compare it with both your and my descriptions of the recent history of Egypt:
quote:
Settler Colony
Colonialism as a direct result of the imperial process took many different forms. The word ‘colony' has its etymological roots in Latin and Greek. The literal meaning of the word ‘colonia' is settlement. As is widely known, settlement is one of the most important characteristics of colonialism, meaning essentially the movement of people to a peripheral region or a ‘new world' from a metropolitan state. The term ‘settler colony' is often used to distinguish between two types of colonies; settler (or settler invader) colonies and colonies of occupation.
[1] Others would distinguish between settlement and exploitation colonies. The primary difference between the two is that settlers tended to stay permanently in settler colonies. In taking possession of the land and cultivating it, there was never much thought to returning home. According to Ashcroft, in settler colonies “the invading Europeans (or their descendants) annihilated, displaced and/or marginalized the indigenes to become a majority non-indigenous population”.
[2] In exploitation colonies or colonies of occupation, the European ‘settlers' consisted of a relatively small but powerful group of white planters concerned mainly with managing and supervising the exploitation of resources as well as safeguarding the geo-political interests of the metropolitan state. These seldom remained on after the end of their mission. Nigeria and India are examples of colonies of occupation where although indigenous people were the majority, they were ruled by a foreign power.
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 18 March 2005).]
posted
You are both taking the right approach into the matter, in determining how Egypt got to its current situation. Ausar's last comment in particular, points out not only the settlement patterns, but also briefly touches on some of the measures that were put in place for anchoring power. He just so happens to be going at the settlement 'pattern' in more detail, which is good, because some folks have a tendency of looking at populations in quite simplistic ways, and then wonder why others talk about population alterations over the years. Both the "settlement pattern" and the processes involved in the "political colonization and subjection of an indigenous people" should be analyzed in detail, so as to understand Egypt's current situation.
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posted
Wally, I really think you should update your website about Sa3eed[Upper Egypt]. Not all the people who live in Sa3eed are indigenous desendants of the ancient Egyptians. Many are Arab tribes that came from Syria,Yemen,and even Hejaz.
You have the following in Upper Egypt:
Ashraf:these are people who claim desendants of the phophet Mohammed. These groups are like the Brahmins of India. A religious aristocratic race. Many of their desendants might have mixture with the Fellahin but its mostly foreign. You can tell by their very own names that end in wi. Sheikh Rifa'a Tahtawi is one of the examples of an Ashraf.
Bedouin tribes: These tribes mostly came into Egypt during the Middle Ages. You have the various groups that live from areas like Beni Suef to Asyut and even in areas like Aswan. Some even exist in parts of Luxor called the Horobot. Most are nomadic but many have been settled in agritcultural communities by the Arabian caliph and also later Mohammed Ali during the 1800's. Also the Bedouins were settled amongst the Fellahin in the Delta to quel rebellions in the area. The relationship between the Fellahin in the Delta seem to be quiet different than that of the ones in Middle and Upper Egypt.
The Bedouin used the Fellahin land to graze,and made the Fellahin virtual slaves.
Contrary to what people might tell you many Fellahin abandoned their land,and there are records in Arabic that areas in Middle Egypt were virtually abandoned. {read Henery Aryout Habib's book The Egyptian Peasant]
The bedouin groups in modern Egypt are the following:
Hawwara:they live from Sohaj down to Qena.Some ethnologist have noted they are really Northern African tribes. Not proven conclusively but they might just have that origin.
Ja'afra:they live around Aswan. They came in with Amr Ibn Alas' during 640 AD
Ababda: They live in parts of Aswan,and they are primarily Arabized Beja people.
Hejazi Arabs: Some Bedouins like Nasser's family came and settled in parts of Upper Egyptian areas like Asyut.
Others not often included:
During the Middle Ages there was a influx of Moroccans that were settled in parts of Middle Egypt. Moustafa Gadalla in his Exiled Egyptians refers to areas being settled by Moroccans,and that of Moroccans running Fellahin off land.
In the modern Arabic of the people of Middle Egypt there are many Moroccan words in their dialect.
I references earlier about the region of Fayoum in Middle Egypt.Well, Arabs were here also. Settled communities in the Fayoum were also Berbers. Many people don't know this but there was a heavy Berber pressence around Fayoum during the 1200's and probably before that.
Well about the Christians in modern Egypt,most will say they were segregated from the Arabs and did not mix because of their religion. I have reserched this and found it to be a fallacy,and an untruth. Amr Ibn Alas' army was not just Muslims. The army included other groups including Arab Christians. Yes, Yemen had been a Christian country,and remained so untill around the Middle Ages. Add to this that many Christians living in the cities and towns had high offical jobs that brought them incontact with Armenian and Syrian Christians. Here is an outdated source but its relevent to the modern era:
Copts have undoubtedly preserved the race of the Egyptians as it existed at the time of the Arab conquest in remarkable purity. The Coptic agricultural population (fellahIn) in the villages of Upper Egypt and elsewhere are not markedly different from the Mahommedan fellahIn, who, of course, are of the same stock, but mixed with Arab blood.
The Copts in the towns, who have always been engaged in sedentary occupations, as scribes and handicraftsmen, have a more delicate frame and complexion, and may have mingled with Syrian and Armenian Christians.
Here are some interesting accounts from Arab authors during the Middle Ages of Upper Egyptians[Sai'idi]:
Know that the land of Egypt when the Mussulmans entered it, was full of Christians, but divided amongst themselves in two sects, both as to race and religion.
The one part was made up of men about the court and public affairs, all Greek, from among the soldiers of Constantinople, the seat of government of Rum; their views as well as their religion, were all of them Melkite; and their number was above 300 000, all Greeks
The other portion was the whole people of Egypt, who were Qibt, and were of mixed descent; among whom one could not distinguish Qibt from Abbysinian, Nubian or Israelite; and they were all Jacobites.
Some of them were writers in government offices, others were merchants and tradesmen, others were bishops and prsbyters and such like, others were tillers of the land in the country, while others were of the class of servants and domestics. But between these and the Melkite ruling population, marriages were not allowed, from mutual hatred of each other, often carried to murders on either side." The Sheikh andImam Taqi-ed-din El-Maqrizi of Cairo family from Baalbek, History of the Copts and of their Church
There is more tendency to Negroidism as Nubia is approached.
"Maqrizi and 'Abd Al-Latif' had already noted this in the fourteenth century, and any traveler who gets as far south as Aswan can see it for himself.
"The Saidi or Upper Egyptian, who lives in a drier and hotter climate, is taller, more bronzed, vigorous and muscular than the fellah of the Delta.
''It is rare that one encounters persons with a light complexion or ruddy complexion, the children are in general spare, deformed, and lack the freshness of complexion. Most of the men begin to improve in looks after the age of twenty. The inhabitants of the Said have a slenderer body, a drier temperature and a darker complexion; wrote 'Abd' al-Latif in his account of Egypt."
page 67
The Egyptian Peasant Henery Ayrout Habib Becon Press
'Abd al-Latif was a traveler from Iraq.
[This message has been edited by ausar (edited 18 March 2005).]
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: Wally, I really think you should update your website about Sa3eed[Upper Egypt]. Not all the people who live in Sa3eed are indigenous desendants of the ancient Egyptians. Many are Arab tribes that came from Syria,Yemen,and even Hejaz.
Well, I'm certainly going to do just that and I'm going to essentially use the info that you're providing here. So if you have more details... (Hey, isn't this the info I asked you for before, already? )
quote:Why is it that every Mediterranean or Arab looking Egyptian, has to be a Foreigner, when it reality they're just as Egyptian as all the so called darker or African looking ones?
Nobody is saying all lighter Egyptians are foreigners. However, many of the lighter Mediterranean Egyptians mostly living in the cities and Alexandria will tell you alot of their ancestors came from other areas.
quote:How many thousands of years do your ancestors have to live in Egypt, before you become a Native Egyptians? Are White Americans considered Europeans or Foreigners, no and their ancestors have only been in America for four hundred years or less!
You have to understand many groups within Sa3eed claim they are Arabs that came to Egypt during the Islamic invasion. You have to take that up with people who declare they are Ashraf or bedouins. The Ashraf have charts registered with the government of Cairo to prove their foreign origins.
quote:The people of North and North East Africa, have always been Mediterranean and Non-Negroid and there is no reason to believe otherwise. Has there been some mixing between the natives, of course, but so what?
All the genetic studies have shown time and time again, that the people of North and North-East Africa are genetically closer to Europeans than to West Africans, and that is the exact truth!
This is not exactly true. Mediterranean is a label created by Gullselpi Sergi. He also included Ethiopians,Somalians,and other groups like Dravidians in India.
Costal Northern Africa has a completely different pre-history than Egypt. You might want to look up the Metch-Aflou,Iberian-Maursian,and Capsian culture. Again learn to seperate North-western Africa from North-eastern Africa.
A large portion of the pre-dyanstic Egyptians came from the Saharan areas which was mostly negriod. Since you don't study prehistory you don't know much about these cultures.
Ethiopians/Somalis are genetically closer to Europeans because the Eur-Asian groups split from them. Not because they have Eur-Asian admixture.
Pre-dyanstic Egypt included Saharans,Elogated Eastern African types, and Sedenary Nilotic people.
In the northern regions of the Delta you had some slight Levantine influences and Mesopotamian influence.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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The Ashraf These are people who claim to be descendants of the prophet Muhammad. These groups are similar to the Brahmins of India; they are a religious, aristocratic race. Many of their descendants might have mixture with the Fellahin but its mostly foreign. You can identify them also by their names which end in "wi". "Sheikh Rifa'a Tahtawi" is an example of an Ashraf.
The Bedu (Bedouin tribes) These tribes mostly came into Egypt during the Middle Ages. You have the various groups that live from areas like Beni Suef to Asyut and even in areas like Aswan. Some even exist in parts of Luxor called the Horobot. Most are nomadic but many have been settled in agricultural communities by the Arabian caliph and also later Muhammad Ali during the 1800's. Also the Bedouins were settled amongst the Fellahin in the Delta to quell rebellions in the area.
(--And so on in this fashion) -- (Contributed by ...........)
It would be great if I could have photos to go along with the information. Any ideas regarding sources?
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 18 March 2005).]
The Ashraf These are people who claim to be descendants of the prophet Muhammad. These groups are similar to the Brahmins of India; they are a religious, aristocratic race. Many of their descendants might have mixture with the Fellahin but its mostly foreign. You can identify them also by their names which end in "wi". "Sheikh Rifa'a Tahtawi" is an example of an Ashraf.
The Bedu (Bedouin tribes) These tribes mostly came into Egypt during the Middle Ages. You have the various groups that live from areas like Beni Suef to Asyut and even in areas like Aswan. Some even exist in parts of Luxor called the Horobot. Most are nomadic but many have been settled in agricultural communities by the Arabian caliph and also later Muhammad Ali during the 1800's. Also the Bedouins were settled amongst the Fellahin in the Delta to quell rebellions in the area.
(--And so on in this fashion) -- (Contributed by ...........)
It would be great if I could have photos to go along with the information. Any ideas regarding sources?
posted
I want to briefly interrupt this intelligent informative discussion w/ Wally and Ausar.
Ausar properly corrected some nonsense-distraction with the followiing:
quote: Ethiopians/Somalis are genetically closer to Europeans because the Eur-Asian groups split from them. Not because they have Eur-Asian admixture.
This is quite correct but it doesn't go far enough.
It also need be noted that:
* East Africans are typically most closely related genetically to other East African ethnic groups of whom their are dozens.
* In addition virtually all indigenous East African groups are more closely related to individual West African groups than they are to any European group.
Specific examples:
The East African Oromo and West African Fulani are more closely related to each other than they are to ANY European ethnic group.
The West African Taureg and East African Beja are more closely related to each other than they are to ANY European ethnic group.
The attempt to define other peoples primarily in terms of how they relate to Europe, regardless of the logical irrelevance of Europe to the equasion is CLASSIC Eurocentric ruse rhetoric, and needs to be called out, and checked at the door.
To clarify by analogy:
The method used in the case of genetics is the logic equivalent of the following geographic fallacy.
Fact: The distance between Nigeria and South Africa is greater than the distance between any two European countries.
Fact: On average the distance between Nigeria and South Africa is VASTLY greater than the average distance between European nations.
Fact: Nigeria is physically closer to Europe than it is to South Africa.
Therefore: Nigeria is geographically more closely related to Europe than Africa.
Wrong!
The correct conclusion is that Africa is FAR LARGER than Europe.
That is the essential fact that explains all of the data given.
The flawed conclusion of Nigeria more closely related to Europe is not trivial beause it manages to obscure the fact that Nigeria's closest geographic neighbors are also other African Nations, and no European Nation is as close to Nigeria as its African neighbors.
Same with genetics. Africa is vastly larger genetically speaking...than Europe. Therefore you cannot define Africans genetically by Europe.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 18 March 2005).]
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