posted
ABAZA didn`t say east africa, he said north east africa. Rasol, the Oromo are not from eritrea (north east africa), so the Beja are not from eritrea, none of this tribes live in Eritrea. If some one don`t agree with you, you start insult people. Like i said before in North East Africa is 9 tribes, each this tribes come from different descendants. Some of you on this topic mix up things. If some one have dark skin, that don`t make him or her have the same tribes with the others. Eritrea has a mixed AFRO-ASIATIC population. That is divided by religion and language. There are nine etnic groups in Eritrea, which are: The Kushitic linguistic groups: Afar 4%, Denkalia), Bilen 2% (Keren area), Hedareb 2% (Tessenei), Saho 3% (Foro) The Nilotic linguistic groups: Kunama 3% and Nara 2% (or Baria) (Western lowlands) The Semitic linguistic groups: Tigre 35% (Sahel) and Tigrinya 48% (mainly in the Highlands) Groups of arab origin: Rashaida 1% (near Massawa) Some of this groups have none incommen with west or central or south africans like in north africa. I anderstand ABAZA, because he`s trying to defend his identity. Even dark egyptain look different than west, central or south african. Because the nose the body typ, hair have none incommen. The same thing in noth east africa (eritrea). I don`t care if you agree with me or not. They even have different culturs and languages. I am not saying all, but with some tribes, they have none incommen. Like i said you are not eritrean, so there are different tribes and even total different cultures.
Posts: 232 | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:ABAZA didn`t say east africa, he said north east africa.
My response was to Ausar who referenced Ethiopians/Somalis.
Please read more carefully before you reply.
Also please start a new thread instead of hi-jacking this one.
Your comments are completely off topic [EGYPT AFTER THE PHARAOHS] and do not relate to Ausar's comments [genetic affinity] nor to my reply to him..... nor do you seem to understand a word of what was said.
I will be happy to address your 'ideas' in another more appropriate thread. Thank you.
quote: ausar wrote: Wally, there are some good photos in the following book of the Ababda and Ja'afra Bedouin groups: Upper Egypt: Life Along the Nile by Nicholas S. Hopkins (Editor) ISBN: 8787334526
Thanx, I'll check it out. I think I'll also update the bibliography section on my website as well, so if you have any more good reference sources...
quote: While you include Ethnic groups in Upper Egypt you should also write about the city dwellers during the Middle Ages. This is why I suggest that you must research Egyptian history from its inception from pre-dynastic down to the initial decline. Most khawagas[foreigners] don't know much about Egypt past the Third Intermediate Period into the Islamic era.
No, no, as I've hinted before, you should write about the city dwellers during the middle ages, a Blog would be nice, a book would even be better.
My website is purposely restricted to deal with the topic of the ethnology of Ancient Egypt and also to serve as a kind of portal/springboard and reference source for those who want to study the other, more standard areas of Egyptian history. That's why I intend to increase the reference information on texts and sources such as the one you have provided me...
you should write the history...
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 19 March 2005).]
quote:No, no, as I've hinted before, you should write about the city dwellers during the middle ages, a Blog would be nice, a book would even be better.
My website is purposely restricted to deal with the topic of the ethnology of Ancient Egypt and also to serve as a kind of portal/springboard and reference source for those who want to study the other, more standard areas of Egyptian history. That's why I intend to increase the reference information on texts and sources such as the one you have provided me...
you should write the history...
Yes, but documenting the foreigners in Egypt from dyanstic to modern times is crucial to the ethnology of the ancient Egyptians. I don't have the time know to document,or write much about these topics.
I think I will develop a blog,but currently I am very busy.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Multisphinx, Ayazid is know claiming under the name Shenouda that he is actually an Egyptian living in Europe. He was okay at first but people claiming to be Egyptian under false alias is rather annoying. We already have enough people doing that on the internet.
I don't think Ayazid has physically been to Egypt,but he might know some Egyptian immigrants in czechslovakia where is he from.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Multisphinx, Ayazid is know claiming under the name Shenouda that he is actually an Egyptian living in Europe. He was okay at first but people claiming to be Egyptian under false alias is rather annoying. We already have enough people doing that on the internet.
I don't think Ayazid has physically been to Egypt,but he might know some Egyptian immigrants in czechslovakia where is he from.
quote:Originally posted by dahlak: ABAZA didn`t say east africa, he said north east africa. Rasol, the Oromo are not from eritrea (north east africa), so the Beja are not from eritrea, none of this tribes live in Eritrea. If some one don`t agree with you, you start insult people. Like i said before in North East Africa is 9 tribes, each this tribes come from different descendants. Some of you on this topic mix up things. If some one have dark skin, that don`t make him or her have the same tribes with the others. Eritrea has a mixed AFRO-ASIATIC population. That is divided by religion and language. There are nine etnic groups in Eritrea, which are: The Kushitic linguistic groups: Afar 4%, Denkalia), Bilen 2% (Keren area), Hedareb 2% (Tessenei), Saho 3% (Foro) The Nilotic linguistic groups: Kunama 3% and Nara 2% (or Baria) (Western lowlands) The Semitic linguistic groups: Tigre 35% (Sahel) and Tigrinya 48% (mainly in the Highlands) Groups of arab origin: Rashaida 1% (near Massawa) Some of this groups have none incommen with west or central or south africans like in north africa. I anderstand ABAZA, because he`s trying to defend his identity. Even dark egyptain look different than west, central or south african. Because the nose the body typ, hair have none incommen. The same thing in noth east africa (eritrea). I don`t care if you agree with me or not. They even have different culturs and languages. I am not saying all, but with some tribes, they have none incommen. Like i said you are not eritrean, so there are different tribes and even total different cultures.
wrong you could still find some black egyptians with clearly african features even the ones who have some form of mixture,and most black egyptians were like that in the past.there are nubian egyptians that too still have clearly african features like any other black african in all regions of africa.
posted
early nubia and sudan is in northeast africa but that is east africa not northern africa like egypt and the first ones there were black(negriod)folks not white, and a part of lower nubia is in egypt toady only because of the british,so sudan early nubia and most of modern nubia belongs to northeast east africa,not north africa.
Posts: 2688 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:This guy Wally is the Biggest Liar about Egypt and distorts the truth about the Egyptian People. Why should we listen to a Big Fat Lie from you and your Biased Website?
The reason, why many people are attacking you, is because of all the Bullshit you're spreading and the False Lies!!
LMFO Abaza, this must be a big fat joke coming from YOU!...
YOU who says things like:
quote:Read and Weep, even the Nubians are not really Black Africans. ....
...even the darkest Egyptians and the Nubians were not true Black Africans. ..Both of them carry mostly Caucasoid Genes!
ROTFLOL You keep posting such ludicrous crap, yet you call others liars and distorters?!! Why don't you join Evil-Euro since you apparently share his racial fantasies
You also say:
quote:...he most definitely has a Racist Black Agenda,...
You're a Big Black Racist!!
LOL
The whole problem of racism was started by white people and while the majority of racists are whites, I have no doubt that there are probably some blacks out there who, because they were victims of prejudice and bigotry, might harbor feelings of resentment and bitterness towards whites or even other peoples. Such attitudes shouldn't be described as being the same as that of mainstream white racism, since mainstream racism is based on false notions of racial supremacy, while so-called "black" racism is simply a reaction to that.
I personally know many black people, and I can honestly say I have never met one that had such negative attitudes. In fact, even those who experienced prejudice were mad about it, but were pretty understanding of the ignorance and seemed more forgiving than I thought.
The main thing is that although I don't agree with everything that Wally or the other Afrocentrics on this forum say, I have not heard anything from them that could be considered racist or even offensive! They've said nothing to put down whites or other peoples. But YOU on the other hand!...
Some of the awful and most ridiculous things in this forum were said by you, like arguing that blacks had lower IQs! I recall you even resorted to verbal assaults that are obviously racial like "black" "ugly" "monkey" "ghetto" "hood" even "n****r"!!!
Yet you call others 'racist'?!!!
[This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 19 March 2005).]
Posts: 26260 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:It is extremely difficult trying to hold an intelligent discussion with the constant and moronic interruptions to the logical flow of the topic being discussed. But let us try anyway...
posted
I did not use the word, they were white. The only white people are EUROPIANS. As far as i know, the white civilization didn`t exist back then. I don`t realy know where they come from, all i know is they weren`t in middleeast or in africa back then. Even the Romer and Greek were different, they steal say they are different than the rest of europe, they call them selves southern (in German suedlaendisch). Back then, if you are not born in Rome, the Romer use to say, you are not an Romer. What have Romer or Greek to do with the new civilization of EUROPE???? I am not racist, but the whites came later. Just imagine how boring the World be if we didn`t have racism. It truly runs the World. Otherwise, why would an Indian care about being fair and look down on darker Indians. Only thing that saddens me is the fact that Caucasians created a World that respects lighter individuals only to benefit themselves. Just imagine how many different tribes and language is in Africa, there is alot, but that don`t make them, they are the same. It don`t matter your skin coulor, you should be called by your tribes (ancestery) or orgen. I don`t agree with some of people on this topic, specially with evel-euro and homb. They claim the ancient world were white, that is absolute lies and wrong. Back then the race thing didn`t exist. The other thing is i don`t agree with some people on this topic, because each tribes in Africa have his own identity. I cann`t just tell the person you are from africa so you have the same identity like the other africans, that is wrong. the most thing i don`t agree is, being white. The whites are different races. They are the most evel people on this earth (not all), but most of them, specially hier in America. In Europe is alot different. Who start the race thing, the whites. Look what is happening in middleeast, that is so sad. They being manuplating people since 15century. I was last year in masawa (eritrea), i seen my tribes and other tribes drinking tee, and they didn`t even say you are different so leave, they didnot even know what race is. I may be not agree with some of you guys on this topic, but i never said the ancient world were white. They were not White, that is the fact. What i don`t anderstand is the separet of middleeastern, there are people dark skin, all don`t look the same. Even in Iraq have dark skin arabs. There is a really light skin arab, brown skin arab and dark skin arab. In my believe the arabs are a mix nation. If you know most arabs don`t like whites (westners). Like i said before, i am not a racist.
Posts: 232 | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: Multisphinx, Ayazid is know claiming under the name Shenouda that he is actually an Egyptian living in Europe. He was okay at first but people claiming to be Egyptian under false alias is rather annoying. We already have enough people doing that on the internet.
I don't think Ayazid has physically been to Egypt,but he might know some Egyptian immigrants in czechslovakia where is he from.
Bullshit, Ausar. I never claimed to be an Egyptian living in Europe. I sometimes use the nick "Shenoudah", however I donīt claim to be an Egyptian living abroad. Where did you gett it?!? And yes, I allready was in Egypt and not only one time and not only for 2 weeks, so whatīs your problem? Do you know me personally or what?!? And donīt delete this post, because itīs craven and silly.
Seriously, what is wrong with my statements? They are factually correct. Most Sa3ayeda live in the area between Beni Suef and Qena, and not between Luxor and Aswan. I donīt understand why you agree with moronic argumentation of Afrocentrists as Wally and supercar about "Arabic-Egyptians" and "Hamitic" Egyptians. Did you see Wallyīs site? There are 2 picks of fellahin who("unfortunately")donīt look negroid and therefore Wally marked them as "elite Arab-Egyptians". On the other hand there are several picks of people who are probably Nubians and Wally used them as an example of authentical Upper Egyptians?!? What do you think about it Ausar, itīs ok? Ausar, most of Sa3ayeda donīt look like East Africans or Nubians. There are certainly many mulatto types in Upper Egypt, but it doesnīt mean that most Egyptians look mulatto. Do you think that the reason for the fact that most Middle Egyptians look Arabic is because they are mixed with Arabs? Do you think that in Ancient times they looked like all like Ethiopians and changed during Medieval times because of Greek and Arab influence? I am sorry, but this is a total BS. I am surprised that you have these opinions. All Egyptians are just Egyptians! In pharaonic times, there were both mediterrean and East African looking types. This is my opinion. Wallyīs opinion that all non-negroid looking are foreign "Arabs" is an insult for Egyptian people.
All Americans(Afro and Euro + Egyptian Americans) have clearly some kind of Egyptian-race obsession. There are many interesting issues concerning Ancient Egyptians,but you are still arguing about their race(maybe 70% of all threads).
[This message has been edited by Ayazid (edited 23 March 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Ayazid, why do you get so excited over modern Egyptian identity if you are not one?
You've spend literally years on this forum arguing with Egyptians over there own identify concepts. Does that make sense?
Your post with all its swearing and namecalling and bizarre race labeling makes you sound like a bit of a headcase frankly.
You should delete that post and start over after having a valium or something.
Thanks for your politeness rasol ...
The main difference between me and people like you and Wally is that I consider modern Egyptians, no matter how they look like and from which part of Egypt they are, to be a living connection to Ancient Egypt.Lower Egyptians have certainly bigger foreign admixture than Upper Egyptians, but their gene-pool is still mostly "pharaonic". This is a fact. Ancient Egyptians were a fascinating nation, but they never became extinct, because their descendendants still live in Lower and Upper Egypt.
I am unfortunately arguing with Ausar and multisphinx about some things, but I respect their opinions,however donīt agree with them. But I donīt have any respect for people like Wally and you. Entou mish Masreyeen, bas hobl min Amreeka.3eeb 3aleeko ya metnakeen!!!
Masr Omm el Donya!
[This message has been edited by Ayazid (edited 22 March 2005).]
quote:I consider modern Egyptians, no matter how they look like and from which part of Egypt they are, to be a living connection to Ancient Egypt.
You are not an Egyptian and you are not a scholar of Km.t history. Ausar is both. You seem obsessed with Egyptian identity, but you have no knowledge and no experience.
quote:Lower Egyptians have certainly bigger foreign admixture than Upper Egyptians but their gene-pool is still mostly "pharaonic".
What pray tell, constitutes a pharaonic gene?
What genetic study are you citing?
What is your level of familiarity, of comprehension of molecular genetics?
Your problem, is that your opinions consist of little more than a series of blanket statements founded in little more than preferred belief and completely devoid of scholarly merit.
THAT IS WHY YOU ATTEMPT TO GAIN CREDIBILITY FOR YOUR RIDICULOUS REMARKS BY CONVINCING PEOPLE THAT YOU ARE AN EGYPTIAN.
But you are not. That is Ausar's point and he is correct.
You are just angry because Ausar outed you as a non Egyptian, feigning Egyptian identity to compensate for a lack of actual knowledge.
quote:This is a fact.
No. Your post related NO facts. You are notorious for fact free argument.
How long before you are reduced once again to picture spamming?
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 21 March 2005).]
posted
Ayazid, I have explained to you that in Middle Egypt to Upper Egypt there is a type of caste system with Ashraf,bedouins,and fellahin on the bottom. Many people in Middle Egypt do have Arab mixture or Arab origins. Some might even have some mixture with Syrians,Greeks,or Berbers. I know this because this is what historical record shows. Most of the leading officals to represent this region tend to come from Ashraf and Arab groups.
When it comes to genetics the phenotype might not always be the best indicator,for there are many people living across Central and southern America that look phenotypically ''white'' but might have substanial African ancestry.
Areas like Fayoum,Beni Suef,Sohag,Akhmin,and others had substanial immigrants coming from Syria,Macedonia,Greece,and northern Arabia. I am not saying that people within these regions don't have ancestry that connects back to the ancient Egyptians but there is probably ancestry within this region leading back to other groups as well.
Wally is definately wrong in his acessment that the elite in Egypt are Arab imperilist. What is not wrong is that the early Arabs under the Ummayad and Abbasaid caliph were imperilists that would often relocated bedouin Arabs in the Delta and in Middle Egypt to force the fellahin to pay taxes. The jurists under the caliph forced the kharaj tax. The khraj tax is only forced upon those who were conquered in war. Egypt was not conquered in war but actually welcomed by Amr ibn Alas'.
Ayazid, in sa3eed people are divided among tribal lines. You have Ashraf,Bedouins,and Fellahin. The Fellahin in Middle Egypt are both Muslim and Christian. Although predominately they tend to be Muslim. Along with these groups have have other segregated groups like craftsmens and blacksmith.
I will tell you one thing about the Fellahin of Middle Egypt that probably sets them apart from Arabs is the fact many of the females cannot grow long hair.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Seriously, what is wrong with my statements? They are factually correct. Most Sa3ayeda live in the area between Beni Suef and Qena, and not between Luxor and Aswan.
Yes, but many groups like the Hawwara,Ashraf and other bedouin groups live within these areas to.
quote:I donīt understand why you agree with moronic argumentation of Afrocentrists as Wally and supercar about "Arabic-Egyptians" and "Hamitic" Egyptians.
Who said I agreed with Wally's site concerning Arab Egytians or ''Hamitic Egyptians'' Terms like Hamitic are outdated terms. This was one of the reasons why I made this thread to dispute some of Wally's claims. The elite in Egypt are not really ethnic Arabs but many are Turkish and Circassian. Many lower Egyptian bahary are as poor as sa3eedi.
quote:Did you see Wallyīs site? There are 2 picks of fellahin who("unfortunately")donīt look negroid and therefore Wally marked them as "elite Arab-Egyptians".
Yes,but I don't know for sure they are Bahari fellahin or Sa3eedi fellahin. I don't even know is they are bedouin groups.
quote:On the other hand there are several picks of people who are probably Nubians and Wally used them as an example of authentical Upper Egyptians?!?
Nubians are authenic desendants of the ancient Egyptians from my view. I consider them definately apart of ancient and modern Egyptian culture. So does my friend Ossama Alsaadawi. You might want to look for his post in the archives on this website.
Not all those people in the pictures are Nubians. Some are Aswani Egyptians.
quote:What do you think about it Ausar, itīs ok? Ausar, most of Sa3ayeda donīt look like East Africans or Nubians. There are certainly many mulatto types in Upper Egypt, but it doesnīt mean that most Egyptians look mulatto. Do you think that the reason for the fact that most Middle Egyptians look Arabic is because they are mixed with Arabs? Do you think that in Ancient times they looked like all like Ethiopians and changed during Medieval times because of Greek and Arab influence? I am sorry, but this is a total BS. I am surprised that you have these opinions. All Egyptians are just Egyptians! In pharaonic times, there were both mediterrean and East African looking types. This is my opinion. Wallyīs opinion that all non-negroid looking are foreign "Arabs" is an insult for Egyptian people.
The gradual change of Egypt shifted from the Thrid Intermediate Period into the modern era. More reserch and studies have to be done on this area than is presently avaiable. Mixture with Greeks,Arabs,Syrians,and others is undeniable. We have town settlements and marriage contracts that say otherwise.
You must remeber that the Oasis areas permitted free movement of Libyans into parts of Middle Egypt.
quote:All Americans(Afro and Euro + Egyptian Americans) have clearly some kind of Egyptian-race obsession. There are many interesting issues concerning Ancient Egyptians,but you are still arguing about their race(maybe 70% of all threads).
What you have to understand,Ayazid, is that it was western Egyptologist who interjected the race business within Egyptology. None of this was started by anybody else but western Egyptologist. Being that I have lived in America I understand the racial politics and the racial hierarchy here in America. Don't blame anybody but western Egyptologist.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Also the black Egyptians in Luxor and Aswan donot come from slaves imported from the Sudan. People like this have been in Egypt since the pre-dyanstic times and time immortal.
Egypt was not a slave society like America or Hellenistic Greece. What small slaves came into Egypt was mostly war captives and they were distributed across the unsettled regions. Most were Asiatics. Not Nubians!
Most of the so-called slaves during the Middle Ages were eunchs and mostly distributed in elite households in Cairo and Alexandria. Most of the slaves within Egyptian markets where typically Berbers,Europeans,or Turkish people.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Ausar, again you're showing your inherent bias by deleting factual information.
Ayazid has very valuable point of view, and he is actually saying the truth.
Most of the Afrocentrics on this forum are DEAD WRONG AND SHOULD NOT DEFINE WHO IS AN EGYPTIAN AND WHO IS NOT!!
please stop deleting my postings, because only losers are afraid of the truth.
We have an expression in Egypt, that says:
EL BALEED YEMSASEH EL SABORA!!
Translated: The Dumb student is the one who erases the Blackboard!!
You made the infactual statement that black Egyptians in Upper Egypt are desendants of Sudanese slaves. This is not a factual statement,and you are attempting to define who is not an Egyptian.
Black Egyptians have existed in Upper Egypt since the pre-dyanstic period and still are numerically significant in Luxor to Aswan.
Let me say also that modern Egyptians don't all claim to desend from the ancient Egyptians. Ask many Ashraf or Bedouin tribes in Middle Egypt and they will say they come from Yemen,Syria,or some other region in Arabia.
Ancient Egyptian history is for all people regardless. You can't just have modern groups that happen to be desended from those people strictly studying the history of their country. Otherwise, you will not always get a completely honest perpective of the country,and you will get nationalistic rhetoric instead of actual historical facts.
You really are misdirecting your frustration against so-called Afrocentricsts. It wasn't the Afrocentrists who started the whole debate over the ethnicity of the ancient Egyptians,but European Egyptologist. Afrocentrists were not the people like sir Grafton Smith who said modern Egyptians were totally unrelated to the ancient Egyptians.
[This message has been edited by ausar (edited 21 March 2005).]
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Ayazid has very valuable point of view, and he is actually saying the truth. Most of the Afrocentrics on this forum are DEAD WRONG AND SHOULD NOT DEFINE WHO IS AN EGYPTIAN AND WHO IS NOT!!
whine - Pronunciation Key (hwn, wn) v. whined, whin·ing, whines v. intr. 1. To utter a plaintive, high-pitched, protracted sound, as in pain, fear, supplication, or complaint. 2. To complain or protest in a childish fashion. 3. To produce a sustained noise of relatively high pitch
quote:please stop deleting my postings,
beggar - 1. One who pleads for a living. 2. to ask for reward that is unearned 3. An impoverished person; a pauper. 4. To ask for as charity: begged money while sitting in a doorway. 5. To evade; dodge: a speech that begged ie - evades the real issues.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: Black Egyptians have existed in Upper Egypt since the pre-dyanstic period and still are numerically significant in Luxor to Aswan.
We've brought this up before, but I will ask you here. Is there any evidence that Black Egyptians did not exist in Lower Egypt from the pre-dyanstic period or even in Lower Egypt today?
I donīt understand why you agree with moronic argumentation of Afrocentrists as Wally and supercar about "Arabic-Egyptians" and "Hamitic" Egyptians.
Labeling one's adversaries is a blatant sign of weakeness, in that one does not have facts to stand on. You must be on something quite strong, because anyone who has ever read a post of mine, will know where I stand on the issue the "hamitic" myth.
What up-to-date corroboration due you have, that tells us that throughout years of foreign invasions from the Levant, Persians, Arabs, Greeks, Turks, British, French and others, had no consequence on Egyptian populations?
You have shown none thus far, and seriously doubt you'll be able to. However, more than plenty of past and up-to-date sources have been posted here, that merely supports what is virtually known (by most); Foreign invasions and settlements.
Simple common sense without the need for corroboration is enough to understand the implications of these invasions.
posted
Ausar, The problem that you're having with Abaza and Ayazid is that they really would like for you and I to disagree in principle rather than merely on the details. They would really like for you to start sounding as moronic as they do.
As I have stated previously, it is extremely difficult trying to hold an intelligent discussion with the constant and moronic interruptions to the logical flow of the topic being discussed. But let us try to continue...
Now on a point of detail, you stated "Wally is definitely wrong in his assessment that the elite in Egypt are Arab imperialists."
O.K., Let's take a look right next door to the former Anglo-Egyptian Sudan:
The government of Sudan as well as the Sudanese elites are not ethnic Arabs, even less so than that of its northern neighbor, but they are definitely Arab imperialists and serve as the very instruments of this imperialism. In fact, their particular Jihad today as I speak, against the non-Muslim, non-Arabic speaking peoples in southern Sudan, is to extend Arab influence and domination to include the entire country. If the Christian and Animist folks would simply submit to Islam and the current policy of Arabization, it would be the end of the conflict in Sudan...
You also mention Turkish and Circassian (ie, Caucasians) elements, members of the Egyptian elite; these are natural remnants of the period when Egypt was dominated by another foreign Asiatic country; in this instance, the Turks.
I surely hope that you're not falling into that trap of "Egyptian exceptionism" whereby all the universal political laws and criteria do not apply to Egypt. Because by all of these laws and criteria, Egypt is an Arab settler colony. That is one reason that it is referred to as "The Arab Republic of Egypt" and not "Kmt or Kemet". It's not all that subtle...
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 21 March 2005).]
quote: Most Egyptians consider themselves Arabs. More than 90 percent of Egyptians are Muslims. Islam, the Muslim religion, influences family life, social relationships, business activities, and government affairs. Al-Azhar University in Cairo is the world's leading center of Islamic teaching. --Worldbook Encyclopedia (and everywhere else)
quote: Today, Egypt ranks as a center of the Arab publishing and motion-picture industries. The celebrated works of Egyptian writers and filmmakers have spread Egypt's culture throughout the Arab world. During the mid-1900's, the works of such writers as Tawfiq al-Hakim and Taha Hussein realistically described Egyptian and Arab society. In 1988, the Egyptian author Naguib Mahfouz became the first Arabic-language writer to win the Nobel Prize in literature.--IBID
quote: Saladin, (Egyptian film director Youssef Chahine's) ...historical hymn to tolerance and Arab unity.--World Cinema, Oxford p664
-- Cultural colonialism, one of the main pillars of colonial imperialism.
and now, the $64,000 question
When did the Egyptian people (ie, the "comprehensive" samples provided us by Ayazid)develop all of that body hair? They didn't seem to have much of it in the good old days.
(Well, OK, I already know the answer... )
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 21 March 2005).]
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"Jihad: The Islamic Terrorism" i read this website before. i sent this person an email because of what he says bout islam. Jihad is not islamic terrorism.
"Jihad is one of the pillars of Islam, and it was by jihad that Islam spread throughout the world" This guy is bias, i dont care what he says about AE. Jihad is not a piller of islam.(The 5 pillers of islam are as fallows, Shahaddah meaning that u have intention god is one and the prophet muhammad is his messanger pbuh, second prayer, third ZAKAT(GIVING TO THE POOR), fourth fasting Ramadan, and fifth pilgramage to Makkah.)Jihad is not listed in the 5 pillars of islam. Jihad is a part of every muslim life it is struggle every person goes throug in life. The word now is used in ignorance.
This person is very bias. Thats not how islam at all came into egypt, or why Egyptians speak arabic. It was not forced. It was because arabic is the lang of the Qur'an and inorder to understand the meaning of the Qur 'an and read it you needed to learn arabic.
All he is doin is spreading ignorance about islam from the website.
[This message has been edited by multisphinx (edited 22 March 2005).]
"Jihad: The Islamic Terrorism" i read this website before. i sent this person an email because of what he says bout islam. Jihad is not islamic terrorism.
"Jihad is one of the pillars of Islam, and it was by jihad that Islam spread throughout the world" This guy is bias, i dont care what he says about AE. Jihad is not a piller of islam.(The 5 pillers of islam are as fallows, Shahaddah meaning that u have intention god is one and the prophet muhammad is his messanger pbuh, second prayer, third ZAKAT(GIVING TO THE POOR), fourth fasting Ramadan, and fifth pilgramage to Makkah.)Jihad is not listed in the 5 pillars of islam. Jihad is a part of every muslim life it is struggle every person goes throug in life. The word now is used in ignorance.
This person is very bias. Thats not how islam at all came into egypt, or why Egyptians speak arabic. It was not forced. It was because arabic is the lang of the Qur'an and inorder to understand the meaning of the Qur 'an and read it you needed to learn arabic.
All he is doin is spreading ignorance about islam from the website.
Gadalla looks at the spread of Islam with just as much critical eye as he does with the spread of Christianity, when it comes to Egypt's history. How much is accurate, can perhaps be determined by comparing the content of his work with other researched and peer-reviewed accounts.
posted
I've noticed also that Gadalla is quite biased. It's difficult to quote his material because he seems to have an axe to grind against Christianity and Islam in Egypt.
Posts: 338 | Registered: Feb 2003
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You've actually saved me some work. I had forgotten about Gadalla as a source. I'm going to provide a link to this page as I think that everyone should read this documentation. http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo/mod_egyptians.html
Now, as far as our anti-intellectual friends who write such nonsense like:
quote: "Jihad is not islamic terrorism"
I think he means Islamic Jihad. You can have a Jihad to lose weight! But anyway, I wonder what noun/adjective would our friend use to describe the Islamic Jihad taking place this very moment in Sudan?
quote: I've noticed also that Gadalla is quite biased. It's difficult to quote his material because he seems to have an axe to grind against Christianity and Islam in Egypt.
This is classic anti-intellectualism; "only read (if in fact you read at all) information that agrees with your own perceptions!" or "Since I am ignorant and gullible, you must be also, so you might become indoctrinated with these bad ideas if you read them!" ...
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 22 March 2005).]
quote:You are not an Egyptian and you are not a scholar of Km.t history. Ausar is both. You seem obsessed with Egyptian identity, but you have no knowledge and no experience.
"knowledge and no experience"? Lol, rasol you are funny. I have probably much bigger knowledge of contemporary Egyptian life,culture and language than you, so your statement is just one big BS. Can you tell me what is your level of familiarity of modern Egyptian culture? Do you understand Egyptian colloquial arabic? Obviously not.
quote:What pray tell, constitutes a pharaonic gene?
What genetic study are you citing?
Itīs obvious that unlike West or East Africans or any other foreigners most (Lower) Egyptians can trace their ancestry back to pharaonic times. I donīt say that they donīt have any admixture from neighbouring populations, but itīs questionable to say that the Lower Egyptians are just a mix of Ancient Egyptians and foreigners and lost the Ancient Egyptian phenotype.
quote: Scientists at the University of Cairo tested DNA from the remains of pyramid workers from 2600 BC, and found that the DNA of ancient Egyptians matches that of modern Egyptians. That is, the people living in Egypt now are essentially the same as the people living there thousands of years ago. (Read an excerpt from PBS's Secrets of the Pharaohs)
Borgognini-Tarli and G. Paoli, 1982. The ABO blood type frequencies of ancient Egyptians showed no signs of differing significantly from that of present-day Egyptians. According to the authors, "the blood-group distribution obtained for Asiut, Gebelen and Aswan necropoles shows resemblances with the present leucoderm population of Egypt and particularly with its more 'conservative' fraction (the Copts, MOURANT et al., 1976)."
quote: How long before you are reduced once again to picture spamming?
Sometimes are pictures better than 1000 words,especially yours buddy Those picks are a clear example how most of contemporary Egyptians look like, so their value is great.
quote:Ayazid: I donīt say that they donīt have any admixture from neighbouring populations, but itīs questionable to say that the Lower Egyptians are just a mix of Ancient Egyptians and foreigners and lost the Ancient Egyptian phenotype.
Babbling won't save you. Prove it (with peer reviewed corroboration), i.e., that this isn't the case!
I have a question for you: can you prove the opposite(with peer reviewed corroboration)?
Okay:
quote:In this paper, the Middle Paleolithic and the transition to the Upper Paleolithic in the Lower Nile Valley are described. It is argued that the Middle Paleolithic or, more appropriately, Middle Stone Age of this region starts with the arrival of new populations from sub-Saharan Africa, as evidenced by the nature of the Early to Middle Stone Age transition in stratified sites. Throughout the late Middle Pleistocene technological change occurs leading to the establishment of the Nubian Complex by the onset of the Upper Pleistocene. After a period of significant population expansion during the Last Interglacial, the arid conditions of Stage 4 have forced technological adaptation and contraction of population groups into the Nile Valley. In this context, the initial Upper Paleolithic emerges. The paper ends with an interpretation of the causes of the transition and of the impact of this event in adjacent regions. - VAN PEER P.
quote:Intra-population and temporal variation in ancient Egyptian crania.
S.R. Zakrzewski. Department of Archaeology, University of Southampton, UK.
The level of morphological variation within a population is the result of factors such as population expansion and movement. Traditionally Egyptologists have considered ancient Egypt to have a homogeneous population, with state formation occurring as a result of local processes without influence from migration. This paper tests this hypothesis by investigating the extent of biological relationships within a series of temporally successive Egyptian skeletal samples. Previous studies have compared biological relationships between Egyptians and other populations, mostly using the Howells global cranial data set. In the current study, by contrast, the biological relationships within a series of temporally-successive cranial samples are assessed.
The data consist of 55 cranio-facial variables from 418 adult Egyptian individuals, from six periods, ranging in date from c. 5000 to 1200 BC. These were compared with the 111 Late Period crania (c. 600-350 BC) from the Howells sample. Principal Component and Canonical Discriminant Function Analyses were undertaken, on both pooled and single sex samples.
The results suggest a level of local population continuity exists within the earlier Egyptian populations, but that this was in association with some change in population structure, reflecting *small-scale* immigration and admixture with new groups. Most dramatically, the results also indicate that the Egyptian series from Howells global data set are morphologically ***distinct*** from the Predynastic and Early Dynastic Nile Valley samples (especially in cranial vault shape and height), and thus show that this sample cannot be considered to be a typical Egyptian series.
This research was funded by the Wellcome Trust (Bioarchaeology Panel), Durham University (Addison-Wheeler Fellowship) and by University of Southampton."
want more...
quote:None of Keita's work suggests the penetration of West Asian or European types being a factor in the creation of Dynastic Egypt. Both Keita (1993) and Hassan (1988) have suggested that Saharan elements played a role in the modification of Badari and early Nakada types during the late Nakada period...
According to Keita (1990) and Livingstone (1967), the Haratin are among the major descendants of the original Saharans. Close similarity in ABO serology between modern Haratin populations and those of ancient Egyptian. http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/anthro.htm
Now, let's see your corroboration, a request which you continue to dodge!
[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 23 March 2005).]
posted
I am sorry, but these past-quoted texts can be hardly described as a "peer reviewed corroboration" of your claims. Most of those changes occured allready in pharaonic period, so itīs not any proof that contemporary Lower Egyptians are different from their pharaonic ancestors, because people in the Late period(who were undoubtly Ancient Egyptians ) were anthropologically different from their predynastic ancestors. There wasnīt any stable Ancient Egyptian phenotype!
quote:A change is as good as a rest.
[This message has been edited by Ayazid (edited 23 March 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by Ayazid: I am sorry, but these past-quoted texts can be hardly described as a "peer reviewed corroboration" of your claims. Most of those changes occured allready in pharaonic period, so itīs not any proof that contemporary Lower Egyptians are different from their pharaonic ancestors, because people in the Late period(who were undoubtly Ancient Egyptians ) were anthropologically different from their predynastic ancestors. There wasnīt any stable Ancient Egyptian phenotype!
I am not sure that if you had bothered to look up these studies in the links provided, or the original studies themselves, you would be making illogical comments about their 'peer reviewed' status. The fact that you are telling us that Keita's work isn't 'peer reviewed', is a good indicator of how out of sink you are with reality.
You missed the point: The fact that there was noticeable distinction between the "late" dynastic crania and those of pre-dynastic and early dynastic period, is a testament to the foreign migrations to Egypt, particularly from the Hyksos period, and subsequent migrations. Of course, this shatters your talk of Egyptians having always looked and been the same as they do today. You need to learn how to read bio-anthropological studies; it will do you some good.
[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 23 March 2005).]
posted
The fact is that most Lower Egyptians can trace their ancestry back to Ancient Egyptians. Period.
Posts: 653 | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Super car: What proof do you have of this, when you've already been proven wrong?
Again, the burden is on you to prove the opposite. Prove that most Lower Egyptians canīt trace their ancestry back to Ancient Egyptians and Upper Egyptians can
posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ausar: [B] I want to adress some issues raised by Wally about Arab imperilism. I will begin to say what I agree and disagree with. The Arabs have somewhat taken Egypt by storm and encforced a type of colonial mentality that is very rampant in their history. However,do I think that all Arabs should be lumped into this category? No!
Dear Ausar(Mr Kmt)
Are you an Arabiaphopic Nubian? I do not consider myself to be an Arab by the way, but one can not forge history, again and again.
posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by multisphinx These photoes you pasted are very beautiful. Those Egyptians look very healthy and happy. Do not you wish to be one of them?
Are you an Arabiaphopic Nubian? I do not consider myself to be an Arab by the way, but one can not forge history, again and again.
Where have I forged history? No, I am not an Nubia. Infact, I am an Aswani Egyptian. My ancestors are Saidi. I know well what the Arabs did to the Upper Egyptian population.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Again, the burden is on you to prove the opposite. Prove that most Lower Egyptians canīt trace their ancestry back to Ancient Egyptians and Upper Egyptians can
Like I said Ayazid, learn to read bio-anthropological studies or 'anything' for that matter. It is apparent that you missed the point, somewhere down the road.
quote:This would account for the Atypical look of many of the people of Aswan than the rest of the Egyptians
Frank Yurco [rip] corrects Abobo's latest nonsense:
To those who considered any dark complexioned Egyptians as descendants of Nubians or Sudanese, have you ever travelled from Luxor to Aswan? There the entire population is dark brown in complexion.
They are Egyptians and that they have been that complexion for thousands of years is demonstrated by New Kingdom paintings of the Theban population.
quote:The truth tell us that since the people of Aswan are the closest Egyptians to the Nubians, there must have been some mixing between the peoples. This would account for the Atypical look of many of the people of Aswan than the rest of the Egyptians, per se.
Since, you represent a minority in Egypt, you should keep that in mind when you try to speak for the average Egyptian, who is more Egyptian than anything else.
Well,you know that during the dyanstic period in Egyptian history most of the population was around Luxor-Aswan era. There are also groups of people in Aswan such as the Ja'afra and Ababda who claim they are Arabs. The same goes for some people in the regions of Middle and Upper Egypt.
I highly doubt mixing between Aswani Egyptians and Nubians have went on because most Nubians prefer to intermarry within their own group and not Sa'idi people.
You have people in Aswan that actually desend from Jainssary Turks that were stationed there.
The same can be said of Cairo and Alexandria who have recieved immigrants from Syria and Armenian. Most Alexandrians don't look like the typical Egyptian,but nevertheless they are Egyptians in the modern sense.
To Ayazid, in the Delta regions is where most of the Bedouin Arabs were placed. Especially in the Eastern Delta area where many were settled. Cities like Cairo,Alexandria,and others during Greco-Roman times had settlements of foreigners that were more numerous than the indigenous Egyptians.
Most early anthropologist saw the modern Beja people in the Sudan as the ideal phenotype of the ancient Egyptians.
Here is another study:
Journal of Human Evolution 1972 Berry and Berry
"In a previous study of non-metrical variation it was found that the Egyptians changed very little from pre-dynastic, Old and Middle Kingdom times. ONLY in the New Kingdom was the earlier stability upset."
___so from the Pre-dyanstic period to the new Kingdom the population was uniform to the pre-dyanstic and then became altered through foreign intrusions.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Abaza, this must be a big fat joke coming from YOU!...
)
Those picks are a clear example how most of contemporary Egyptians look like, so their value is great.
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