Still have a lingering question that I would really like an answer to. I understand the point that the lineages we see in North Africa are primarily non-Africa maternally and only partially African paternally. The result being people of mixed ancestry that may no longer have the African tropical adaptation. For me the fact that someone like Jennifer Beal can be 25-30% Black African and yet appear to be completely Caucasian with only a slight tan certainly demonstrates the possible explaination for the light skinned North African people. What I have not heard is any supporting evidence or historical accounts that would lend credence to the idea that these North Africans essentially abandoned their own women en mass. I understand that such a phenomenon exists in America in that Black Males are intermarrying with White females at a rate of 40% in many areas. In the UK I have been told that it is considered abnormal to see a Black male with a Black female. Again, what would account for such a dramatic shift in preference from ones own race to another and is there any suppporting this? I do understand that there's Biblical accounts as well as some secular Jewish accounts. Where can I find out more about this?
quote:Originally posted by osirion: Actually I interpreted the article incorrectly based on responses. I see how the acticle actually supports your point of not associating the Y-chromosomes with phenotype.
SuperCar's comments also show keen understanding of what the study is saying.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 15 August 2005).]
Still have a lingering question that I would really like an answer to. I understand the point that the lineages we see in North Africa are primarily non-Africa maternally and only partially African paternally.
Depends upon the group. The Siwa-Berber are primarly African maternally and paternally.
quote: For me the fact that someone like Jennifer Beal can be 25-30% Black African and yet appear to be completely Caucasian with only a slight tan certainly demonstrates the possible explaination for the light skinned North African people.
The concept that need be understood here is founder effect, particularly on Y chromosome lineages.
When a migrant male population moves to a new area and mixes with a local, and larger female population, then end result after many generations may be that the majority of males carry only their Y chromosome- the Y chromosome of just a few men who 'founded' the entire population.
Will these males look like their few founding fathers?
Maybe, maybe not.
It depends on many factors -
* how similar or dissimlar the mothers are in appearance to the fathers.
* how much of the population expansion is due to in migrating males vs. local or in migrating females.
* natural selection and random variation.
Among the Buba clan Lemba of Southern Africa 56% of their male lineages are of West Asian origin - the so called Cohen Modal Haplotype.
Yet the Buba have a typical Southern African appearance, actually they are a bit darker on ave. than Xhosa and some other S. African Bantu.
Some folks have confused them with Ethiopian Jews...the falasha...., and assume that there must be some 'paternal' relationship between Lemba and Ethiopian Jews.
There is not.
Ironically the Falasha of Ethiopia have very little "West Asian" paternal admixture.
Falasha have mainly E3b and A lineages which link them to other Africans, and which include some of the oldest African populations in the world [the Datoga, Sandawe, the Hadza, Khwe, etc..].
As for the Maghrebian Berber...the fact is their daddy lineage come from East Africa as does their language - Berber languages are exclusively African.
quote:What I have not heard is any supporting evidence or historical accounts that would lend credence to the idea that these North Africans essentially abandoned their own women en mass.
Why would supporting evidence be needed for something that no one is saying?
What IS being said: the M81 mutation {Berber E3b2} arose WITHIN North Africa and expanded along with the Neolithic population INTO an environment containing FEW HUMANS.” - B. Arredi.
quote: I understand that such a phenomenon exists in America in that Black Males are intermarrying with White females
Racial stereotypes are interfering with your grasping the obvious.
The Magrebian men are largely of East African lineage, the women are primarily of Eurasian lineage.
Demic diffusions of mostly migrant men and local women are COMMON.
There are many Arab speakers in North Africa now who combine Arab male lineages with local female lineages.
There are Bantu speakers in SouthEast Africa who have mostly West African male lineages combined with female East African lineages.
The Buba clan Lemba have mostly West Asian male lineages - but 100% African female lineage with nary a sign of a West Asian female.
Don't let overwrought visions of miscegenation interfere with your being able to preceive something that is straightforward - and not intrinsically racial.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 15 August 2005).]
Keep in mind I was generalizing about the North Africans. I realize berbers are very diverse genetically and ethnically. I am primarily referring to the Kabyle or Libyan types that are much more non-African in appearance.
To the point of the European mtDNA H haplogroup spatial spread in North Africa.
The problem I see right away is the lack of R1b amongst the these North African population groups. Why would the ice age adapted European type have been filtered out in North Africa in comparison to the East African type when clearly the reverse is true on the maternal side? I can see the point of migration but this also suggests conquest and enslavement of the local inhabitants. Basically this infers that a European male types existed in North West Africa along with the H carrying females but were either wiped out or through natural selection filtered out?
What comes to mind is a Black Ghengis Khan sweeping from East Africa into Northwestern Africa. Then attempting to cross Gibraltor into Spain but being pushed back. The result of such an expedition would be slaves from the Iberian peninsula. It would make a really good book. However, besides the interestingly marketable fantasies, how do we really account for the missing R1b? How did the H haplogroup get into North Africa?
[This message has been edited by osirion (edited 15 August 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Osirion, Again: All of these questions are answered in [b]this thread.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 15 August 2005).][/B]
I have read this thread and don't see how it answers the question of the missing male Europeans. There's only hints of the so called 'White slave trade' but nothing in terms of actual research supporting how North Africans became this mixture we see today of primarily Eurasian/European maternal lineage with a Eurasian/African paternal one.
What happened to the European males (R1b) in North Africa?
quote:Originally posted by osirion: I have read this thread and don't see how it answers the question of the missing male Europeans. There's only hints of the so called 'White slave trade' but nothing in terms of actual research supporting how North Africans became this mixture we see today of primarily Eurasian/European maternal lineage with a Eurasian/African paternal one.
What happened to the European males (R1b) in North Africa?
again:
M81 mutation arose WITHIN North Africa and expanded along with the Neolithic population INTO an environment containing FEW Humans. - B Arredi.
M81 mutation arose WITHIN North Africa and expanded along with the Neolithic population INTO an environment containing FEW Humans. - B Arredi.
You're asking what happend to "few humans"?
Osirion cannot compute the idea that the Berber paternal lineages are predominently African (E lineages), and to some extent Asian, i.e., J haplogroups largely coming from recent Arab migrations, with the relatively more frequent European maternal lineages in the northwestern coastal African regions. He thinks that European women's presence in Africa can only be explained by the idea of both European males and Females migrating to north Africa in droves. It is like some sort of an event to him, not a process.
posted
"The derived haplogroup (R1b) is possessed by the majority of UK EA1 samples (58%, see below) whilst R*(xRla, R1b, R2) the haplogroup which would be indicated by a potential miscall at this locus, is present in several populations at a low frequency, being most common in EA2 (5%), EA1 (4%) and EA4 (2%), therefore, a Caucasian appearance would be predicted even on the rare occasions when the allele is mistyped."
What about Cameroonian with high frequencies of R*.
quote:Originally posted by Topdog: " What about Cameroonian with high frequencies of R*.
From the study: Y chromosomes are the single most informative marker of biogeographical origin, but they only represent patrilineal ancestry and can therefore be misleading if the possibility of admixture and clinal changes in allele frequencies between source population areas are not considered.
This study was done among a sample of populations in Britain and so divided into 6 groups.
1) pale skinned Europeans Ea1,
2) dark skinned Europeans, Ea2
3) Afro-Carribean, Ea3
4) South Asian, Ea4
5) East Asian, Ea5
6) Middle Eastern, Ea6
note: Europeans are referenced as 'caucasians in this study'; middle easterners are not.
In another country - Cameroon for instance - this clustering scheme would not be applicable, and the author's don't imply otherwise.
That is - those 6 groups don't exist in Cameroon.
In Cameroon R1 might correlate with darker taller African phenotype, whereas a lack of R1 might associate with the smaller lighter Baka. [Pygme]
But because correlation is not cause the results for Cameroon can not be applied to Britain, or vice versa, obviously.
What is of passing interest in terms of their findings is the distinction they draw between group 1 - pale europeans, and group 2, dark europeans.
The finding of 24% African Y chromsome among their native 'dark whites' of Europe [7% E3a and 17% E3b] is much as one would expect: in spite of the occasional propaganda to the effect that there is no E3A among Europeans.
In contrast the Ea1 pale-whites found to have negligible E3a and E3b in this study, will doubtless be of propaganda benefit to the Nordacists, who have always claimed that the dark skin of southern Europeans was 'proof' of African admixture.
This is why the Medi-centrists are foolish to advocate any conception of racial purity, as that is the one thing they most certainly are not.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 16 August 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by Topdog: "The derived haplogroup (R1b) is possessed by the majority of UK EA1 samples (58%, see below) whilst R*(xRla, R1b, R2) the haplogroup which would be indicated by a potential miscall at this locus, is present in several populations at a low frequency, being most common in EA2 (5%), EA1 (4%) and EA4 (2%), therefore, a Caucasian appearance would be predicted even on the rare occasions when the allele is mistyped."
What about Cameroonian with high frequencies of R*.
Of course, when these haplogroups are found in sub-Saharan African populations in central Africa, all of a sudden, they mysteriously no longer become "caucasoid", as per borderline Europeans with a bad case of an identity complex.
quote:Originally posted by Super car: Osirion cannot compute the idea that the Berber paternal lineages are predominently African (E lineages), and to some extent Asian, i.e., J haplogroups largely coming from recent Arab migrations, with the relatively more frequent European maternal lineages in the northwestern coastal African regions. He thinks that European women's presence in Africa can only be explained by the idea of both European males and Females migrating to north Africa in droves. It is like some sort of an event to him, not a process.
If you define compute as speculate then of course I can come up with a myriad of fantastical explainations for the migration of females from France into Northwest Africa.
I want to know if there is an historical account explaining this. Are we talking about population replacement? If so, is it possible that there were European males in Northwest Africa before the arrival of East African E3b carrying males? Would the European males have been simply dissemated - which was a common in those times? Or is this just one of those cases where there's not enough data and we are force to speculate? Isn't there some arhaelogoical data such as artifacts or something that would help?
By compute, I mean "understand". I hope that helps!
quote:osirion: I can come up with a myriad of fantastical explainations for the migration of females from France into Northwest Africa.
I thought you were already told that, pseudo-science doesn't mix with genetics. You come up with fantastical stuff, that is what you'll be engaging in...pseudo-science. But hey, that is up to you.
quote:osirion: I want to know if there is an historical account explaining this. Are we talking about population replacement? If so, is it possible that there were European males in Northwest Africa before the arrival of East African E3b carrying males? Would the European males have been simply dissemated - which was a common in those times? Or is this just one of those cases where there's not enough data and we are force to speculate? Isn't there some arhaelogoical data such as artifacts or something that would help?
I suggest that you familiarize yourself with North African history, and take some time to 'carefully' read up-to-date peer reviewed genetic studies, a variety of which has been posted here, to expose trolls, as well as inform those who are willing to improve on their knowledge.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: Basically E3a can be mistakenly associated with Caucasians just like E3b is.
False analogy. E3a is only occasionally associated with a non-Negroid phenotype, as when found at very low frequencies among Europeans. E3b is the predominant haplogroup in North Africa, found everywhere at very high frequencies (60-80%), and as such it's always associated with either a Caucasoid phenotype or, in cases where mtDNA is predominantly L, a hybrid phenotype. Just like when E3a exists at high frequencies in a population, it denotes Negroid phenotypes. This is essentially the conclusion drawn by Wetton, who separates E3b from "Afro-Caribbean" E3a and groups it instead with "Caucasian" J and G and, more broadly, R and I.
quote:[If "Y chromosomes do not have races"] then why are you [rasol] involved in a debate that is about racial admixure of Greeks?
I've been asking him the same thing for, oh, about two months now. Of course, he'll never answer, but we all know that low self-esteem from being an inferior Negro is what compels him to contradict himself and attempt to commandeer the superior Greeks.
[This message has been edited by Evil Euro (edited 16 August 2005).]
quote:Of course, when these haplogroups are found in sub-Saharan African populations in central Africa, all of a sudden, they mysteriously no longer become "caucasoid", as per borderline Europeans with a bad case of an identity complex.
quote:Originally posted by relaxx: I would rather qualify it as an extreme case of that illness...
Relaxx
That is clearly the case. Thus the obsessed idiot continues to debate himself, contradict himself, and deny reality, while repeating dumb questions and failing to grasp obvious answers - because he can't stomach the truth.
Racism leads to madness. What a fruitcake.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 16 August 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by Babbling Ape: In contrast the Ea1 pale-whites found to have negligible E3a and E3b in this study, will doubtless be of propaganda benefit to the Nordacists, who have always claimed that the dark skin of southern Europeans was 'proof' of African admixture.
Spanish Basques have more than 85% R1b, ~10% I, and only ~2% J, ~2% E3b, and 0% E3a. Their mtDNA is equally European, being ~80% H, V and U*, with no L markers.
quote:Originally posted by Evil Euro: I've been asking him the same thing for, oh, about two months now. Of course, he'll never answer, but we all know that low self-esteem from being an inferior Negro is what compels him to contradict himself and attempt to commandeer the superior Greeks.
[This message has been edited by Evil Euro (edited 16 August 2005).]
Aren't you that mulatoo boy with some Jewish and African heritage trying to prove that it is really all from the Caucasus region? Man the extent you sicko Europeans will go to cover up the fact that you aren't pure bloods.
Misnomers, Misrepresent, Deny, Minimize, Overexaggerate, Sabotage and Subtefuge.
Soon the Bantu people will have to be reclassified as Caucasoid because of E3a in your so called pure European stock.
Lets see, ahh yes, due to genetic drift the Bantu people were actually Caucasian when they mixed with UK people but climatic changes occurred which resulted in local adaptation of E3a in West Africa to suddenly appear Negroid. Happened last year and I saw it all!
posted
"EA2 is expected to denote individuals with ancestry mainly in the Mediterranean and south-eastern European areas.
Compared with the EA1 dataset the EA2 population shows higher frequencies of haplogroups with North African and Middle Eastern origins such as E3b, J2, and G along with those that have spread from further east in Asia such as L and H; these haplogroups are characteristic of south-eastern Europe.
However, the frequent occurrence (7%) of the **E3a sub-Saharan African haplogroup** that has previously been shown to be virtually absent from the indigenous UK and European populations [23,24] suggests recent admixture with Afro-Caribbeans in the UK, **resulting in an association between African Y chromosomes and a Caucasian appearance.**"
------
Notice how the aftershock has left the notorious ginney wop gasping...in need of answers with 'substance'!
[False analogy. E3a is only occasionally associated with a non-Negroid phenotype, as when found at very low frequencies among Europeans. E3b is the predominant haplogroup in North Africa, found everywhere at very high frequencies (60-80%), and as such it's always associated with either a Caucasoid phenotype or, in cases where mtDNA is predominantly L, a hybrid phenotype. Just like when E3a exists at high frequencies in a population, it denotes Negroid phenotypes. This is essentially the conclusion drawn by Wetton, who separates E3b from "Afro-Caribbean" E3a and groups it instead with "Caucasian" J and G and, more broadly, R and I.[This message has been edited by Evil Euro (edited 16 August 2005).][/B]
You are talking outside of the context of the article and thus what you are saying is just subtefuge. Anyone with basic reading comprehension understands the logic of the article and it was simply that we should be wary of concluding that phenotype can be associated with the haplogroups directly. Besides you already know that one can have over 60% E3a or E3b and still have a European look; Jennifer Beals. There's plenty of Black Africans and Black Americans that are distintly Black with a European look to them.
In fact I am not sure what population you are referring to that is E3b with African mtDNA that looks just like a European. The examples you have given are of North Africans with European mtDNA. What I don't understand is how did those European women get into North Africa w/o the males and end up being the primary female genetic types whereas the male side is clearly mulatto (African/Eurasian/European)? Sounds like a conquest to me on many fronts.
quote:Originally posted by Super car: I suggest that you familiarize yourself with North African history, and take some time to 'carefully' read up-to-date peer reviewed genetic studies, a variety of which has been posted here, to expose trolls, as well as inform those who are willing to improve on their knowledge.
Man, you ask these guys a question and they criticize you for not having the answer and instead of giving you one that tell you to go figure it out on your own.
I have looked and I don't see anything historically that would explain the discrepancy. I have read some books that say that White females were prized above other types and that they were the preferred stock for reproduction. Where as Black females were choosen mainly for manual labor. However, I imagine this was a cultural change due to Arabic influence. So what of the original Berbers before the influx of Arabs from the East? Apparently these were already mixed people.
Man, you ask these guys a question and they criticize you for not having the answer and instead of giving you one that tell you to go figure it out on your own.
Well, man, you were given answers via studies, which are blatantly clear, and even told where to look for them. If you can't take it from there, then man, that is your problem. You can guide a thirsty donkey to the water, but you can't drink the water on its behalf.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: Man, you ask these guys a question and they criticize you for not having the answer and instead of giving you one that tell you to go figure it out on your own.
lol.
It's very odd that you cannot recognise the minimum responsiblity on your part to 'figure things out', even when given access to information, specifically devoted to addressing your question.
Basically, you are being asked to 'think', and apparently regard that as too difficult.
For my part - I 'figured out' quite some time ago, that it is less that you are looking for answers, than seeking confirmation.
A big difference, but I leave you to 'figure that out' for yourself.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: Your a woman right?
We all need to improve our knowledge, and it is useless to argue in that manner since both of you are not trolls. Fortunately Super car tried to copy and paste some information for Osirion. I think Osirion wanted to see a clearer hypothesis than the one presented in the scientific articles, concerning the absence of European Y haplogroups among Berbers. Osirion, bear in mind that Europeans from South West Europe were still hunter gatherers and didn't have the knowledge and technology of E3b carrying farmers who probably had more male than female while moving into North Africa. The more you move (like the nomads) the less you are in contact with your original base, the less you can marry female belonging to your group. Either the European male were slowly marginalized since they didn't have the same culture as the "invaders" or were exterminated since they had less advanced technologies or they just died due to a lifestyle or culture (hunter gathering) that is not efficient in terms of producing food. The batwas and Sans were probably more numerous but were subsequently absorbed, marginalized, or maybe wiped out by invading Bantu speaking people, Nomads…and so on…and those invaders probably didn’t mind picking up some local “chicks”. Again that fantasy about European woman is a myth, even Arabs as mentioned by Ausar preferred Ethiopian women for their beauty. In that case you can argue that the high frequency of East African mtdna in the Arab Peninsula is due to selection, they still live in their original base but don't mind hanging out with Ethiopian women. Relaxx
[This message has been edited by relaxx (edited 16 August 2005).]
[This message has been edited by relaxx (edited 16 August 2005).]
posted
Well said Relaxx. No one has ever found need to imagin-ise about Lemba Jews abandoning West Asian women for Bantu women, in order to account for absent West Asian female lineages among Lemba. Dispropotunately male migrations are not unusual in human history.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 16 August 2005).]
posted
Actually I will admit that I was looking for confirmation on thoughts I had on what happened. I am actually interested in this topic because it is useful writting material.
Think about it:
Dispropotunately male migrations are not unusual in human history.
Correct: Ghengis Khan.
Dessimated European males without the technology or culture to withstand the African onslaught of a superior East African culture.
It really would make a good Novel.
The African Ghengis Khan.
Normally I think of Shaka Zulu but this is more intriguing.
It would really help if I had more to go on in regards to the technological advantages of the East Africans over the Iberian savages. I certainly understand the domestication of animals and agriculture, what about Iron or other forms of metallurgy. Ah, now that would be of great military advantage. So the Iberian Metchoids were stone age whereas the East Africans had already entered the Bronze age? How captivating if true.
Quite marketable stuff really. Quite marketable.
However, would a Black Woman be interested in reading a fantasy about a Black man conquering White North African stone age Cro-Magnons? Even if it is partially based on genetic, linguistic and archaelogical evidence? I am thinking it would put off some Black Women and thus lose its marketability. Also the problem is that the Mulatoo descendents made slaves of Black Africans that were similar to their ancient fathers. That somewhat ruins the story, somehow Black people have a hard time dealing with the vicarious experience of slavery in Africa. The idea of Blacks enslaving other Blacks is rather upsetting. Sort of like Jews commiting genocide on Jews in a way I suppose.
Still might sell well though. At the same time it has to be marketable to Whites and so has to contain accurate information.
posted
Osirion, I appreciate your honesty and apologise if I sounded condescending to you.
I also thought you earlier comment was spot on and funny:
quote:Aren't you that mulatoo boy with some Jewish and African heritage trying to prove that it is really all from the Caucasus region? Man the extent you sicko Europeans will go to cover up the fact that you aren't pure bloods.
Misnomers, Misrepresent, Deny, Minimize, Overexaggerate, Sabotage and Subtefuge.
Soon the Bantu people will have to be reclassified as Caucasoid because of E3a in your so called pure European stock.
Lets see, ahh yes, due to genetic drift the Bantu people were actually Caucasian when they mixed with UK people but climatic changes occurred which resulted in local adaptation of E3a in West Africa to suddenly appear Negroid. Happened last year and I saw it all!
quote:Originally posted by osirion: Aren't you that mulatoo boy with some Jewish and African heritage trying to prove that it is really all from the Caucasus region?
No, I'm not. But I can see by your off-topic rant that -- much like the Babbling Ape who "replied" first -- you have no rebuttal to any of the information presented.
Oh, wait. You do have something to say after all . . .
quote:Anyone with basic reading comprehension understands the logic of the article and it was simply that we should be wary of concluding that phenotype can be associated with the haplogroups directly.
Okay, wary, yes. There will always be a few exceptions. But the whole point of the article is that Y haplogroups do correlate with phenotypes, and E3a is most associated with an "Afro-Caribbean" (i.e. Negroid) appearance, while E3b is most associated with a "Caucasian" appearance.
quote:Besides you already know that one can have over 60% E3a or E3b and still have a European look; Jennifer Beals.
We're talking about the paternal ancestry of populations, not the autosomal ancestry of individuals. A population with ~80% E3a and European mtDNA will have an overall mulatto appearance. If E3b were "Black", the same thing would hold true. But it doesn't.
quote:Originally posted by Evil Euro: Okay, wary, yes. There will always be a few exceptions. But the whole point of the article is that Y haplogroups do correlate with phenotypes, and E3a is most associated with an "Afro-Caribbean" (i.e. Negroid) appearance, while E3b is most associated with a "Caucasian" appearance.
No, this is where you're wrong, yet again. I have the full text to that study and study does *NOT* state that any haplogroups correlate with a phenotype, it speaks about *ETHNIC* appearance. It never states that Y-haplogroups correlates with anthropological characters[nose, lips, hair, prognathism]. But go on ahead and parrot Dienekes, apparanetly you mised the point about E3a correlated with a 'Caucasian' appearance.
quote:Originally posted by Topdog: No, this is where you're wrong, yet again. I have the full text to that study and study does *NOT* state that any haplogroups correlate with a phenotype, it speaks about *ETHNIC* appearance.
You're talking over Euro-monkey's head at any rate. Even if he had the study he's too stupid to understand it.
from the study: The high success rate for classifying South Asian samples using Y-STRs in the aforementioned study [6] is partly contributed by assigning all individuals lacking distinctive Y-STR alleles associated with R1b, I and E3a as South Asian,
However....
as a consequence approximately 20% of White and Black samples were misclassified as South Asian.
What's the potential of a complete moron who thinks women carry Y chromosome for understanding something as subtle and qualified as the above? Highly unlikely.
quote:rasol writes: The finding are of 24% African Y chromsome among group Ea2 [dark europeans] with 7% E3a and 17% E3b, in contrast to negligible African Y chromosome in the more homogeneous [Ea1] pale Europeans. Dark Europeans as a group have more African ancestry than pale ones. No surprise, really.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 17 August 2005).]
No, I'm not. But I can see by your off-topic rant that -- much like the Babbling Ape who "replied" first -- you have no rebuttal to any of the information presented.
You're not part Jewish and African or you're not trying to reclassify East Africans using a term that is a misnomer and misrepresents the origin of the people being denoted?
In both bases you probably are.
quote:
Okay, wary, yes. There will always be a few exceptions. But the whole point of the article is that Y haplogroups do correlate with phenotypes, and E3a is most associated with an "Afro-Caribbean" (i.e. Negroid) appearance, while E3b is most associated with a "Caucasian" appearance.
The only association the article gave E3a was with a Caucasian look. However, it also noted that E3a was from Afro-Caribbean people hence a warning that we should be careful of these types of associations. I am from England and I can tell you that Afro-Caribbean people are the most Negroid in appearance of any people I have ever met even in Africa. But when they marry with ultra thin featured Irish and Welch people their offspring are often remarkably non-Negroid looking.
quote:
We're talking about the paternal ancestry of populations, not the autosomal ancestry of individuals. A population with ~80% E3a and European mtDNA will have an overall mulatto appearance. If E3b were "Black", the same thing would hold true.
Conversely:
A population with ~80% R1a European Y-Chromosomes should have an overall mulatto look?
Strange looking mulattos:
Besides what population group has 80% E3b? Again, the so called White Berbers have around 60% and the rest is Asian and European. Then on the maternal side they are primarily European with very little East African derived mtDNA. That means they are at most 30% East African in which case we know that their appearance is not abnormal considering known individuals who are also mixed in this way and have the same looks. This is especially true given the fact that East Africans have on an average a nasal index that is more similar to Europeans than say Bantu or San people.
Got a question for you: If E3b wasn't say Black like the so called mulatoo East Africans are today. According to you its because E3b mixed with Black mtDNA? Right? But what happened to the non-Negroid mtDNA? Where did these Caucasian females go?
The simple fact is that it is logically to be expected that E3b would originate in an area alongside mtDNA that was of the same racial group. Consequently we should find evidence of mtDNA that arose due to adaptation resulting in certain racially classified traits. Where are these Caucasoid mtDNA haplogroups?
I have a hard time picturing the adaptation of a Caucasoid male type in East Africa but all the female adaptations were Negroid especially considering the origins for both is East Africa. Either E3b migrated into East Africa from somewhere else where there were Caucasoid females. Or the females of East Africa migrated from somewhere else in which case there is an issue with why would there be a female population replacement? And where is the evidence of they Caucasian genes - in fact - what evidence is there for there ever being a Caucasian affiliated mtDNA in East Africa.
quote:osirion: The only association the article gave E3a was with a Caucasian look. However, it also noted that E3a was from Afro-Caribbean people hence a warning that we should be careful of these types of associations.
Of course!
"However, the frequent occurrence (7%) of the **E3a sub-Saharan African haplogroup** that has previously been shown to be virtually absent from the indigenous UK and European populations [23,24] suggests recent admixture with Afro-Caribbeans in the UK, **resulting in an association between African Y chromosomes and a Caucasian appearance.**"
To expect the ginney cave bitch, who doesn't know the biological differences between males and females, much less what a haplogroup is, to know the meaning of a plain text right in front of it, would amount to foolishness.
The simple fact is that it is logically to be expected that E3b would originate in an area alongside mtDNA that was of the same racial group. Consequently we should find evidence of mtDNA that arose due to adaptation resulting in certain racially classified traits. Where are these Caucasoid mtDNA haplogroups?
Where are they?
By the way Osirion, I really appreciate your forward thinking. I noticed that he gets upset when you ask him questions that destroy his thinking. Relaxx.
[This message has been edited by relaxx (edited 17 August 2005).]
The Borana have 86% E3b, the highest level recorded thus far.
The Datoga of Tanzania also have 63% E3b.
Moreover, they, as well as several other Eastern and SouthEastern Africans have far older E3b lineages, and more of them, then the Magrebians. The Berber lineage, E3b2 itself is older among the Egyptian Berber population, and spread relatively recently to the NorthWest.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: The Borana have 86% E3b, the highest level recorded thus far.
The Datoga of Tanzania also have 63% E3b.
Moreover, they, as well as several other Eastern and SouthEastern Africans have far older E3b lineages, and more of them, then the Magrebians. The Berber lineage, E3b2 itself is older among the Egyptian Berber population, and spread relatively recently to the NorthWest.
BS
E3b is north east african!! those south east africans who have some e3b are because of migrations of horn africans to the south!!
most south east africans like kenyans and tanzanians look straight up bantu idi amin type!! cushites and their descendants are a small minority there!
quote:Originally posted by Topdog: study does *NOT* state that any haplogroups correlate with a phenotype, it speaks about *ETHNIC* appearance.
Um, "appearance" and "phenotype" are synonyms.
quote:apparanetly you mised the point about E3a correlated with a 'Caucasian' appearance.
No, I saw it and I clarified it, your stupidity and stubbornness notwithstanding.
quote:Originally posted by Babbling Ape: ...who thinks women carry Y chromosome...
If you had any answers for anything, you wouldn't need to keep using that lame straw man. Pathetic, defeated nigger.
quote:Dark Europeans as a group have more African ancestry than pale ones. No surprise, really.
Nope. See above post about dark, non-"African" Basques, to which you have no answer whatsoever. No surprise, really.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: A population with ~80% R1a European Y-Chromosomes should have an overall mulatto look?
Strange looking mulattos:
1) That high frequency exists in a tiny, isolated group and is due to founder effect. 2) R was introduced into the group in pre-historic times by a "generalized" population that later underwent tropical adaptation.
quote:Besides what population group has 80% E3b?
The population I've linked to about fifty times, moron: Middle Atlas Berbers (81% E3b)
quote:Got a question for you: If E3b wasn't say Black like the so called mulatoo East Africans are today. According to you its because E3b mixed with Black mtDNA? Right? But what happened to the non-Negroid mtDNA? Where did these Caucasian females go?
Ever hear of replacement? It happened in parts of East Africa with intruding Negroid Y-chromosomes, so why not with mtDNA as well?
"The expansion of Bantu farmers would have been largely accompanied by the replacement of other Y-chromosomes." -- Underhill, 2001
quote:Originally posted by Super coon: The Black African recent forefathers of Greeks.
It's L mtDNA which makes those savages look like that, not E3b.
quote:Originally posted by Topdog: study does *NOT* state that any haplogroups correlate with a phenotype, it speaks about *ETHNIC* appearance.
Correct, and the distinction is significant since the catagories do not attempt to relate phenotypically defined races.
Ea1 corresponds to pale europeans who stem primarily from NorthWest Europe.
Ea2 corresponds to dark europeans who come primarily from the south.
Wouldn't matter if we called them 'bush-babies', fact is that they separated into two distinct groups, 1stly based upon differences in color, and then based on differences in paternal ancestry.
In this study, the pale Europeans [EA1] have little to no African Y chromosome.
The darker Europeans [EA2] have 24% African Y chromosome.
This contradicts Dienekes Pontikos and other South European race-fantacists who insist that Europe is homogeneous, in which case Wetton should not be able to divide Europeans into two distinct populations with different appearance. And he should certainly not be able to correlate this to African admixture, yet, that's exactly what he did.
For Dienekes, this is simply and example of a foolish man getting bitten by his own rabid dog.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 18 August 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by leba: E3b is north east african!!
Correction.
PN2 the parent of E3a and E3b is of horn/East African origin.
This means that the entire clade originates in East Africa.
E3b is East African but it is most common South of Kenya, this is why Peter Underhill states that E3b is 'sub-saharan' East African, and not neccesarily from the horn.
E3b1 is derived from E3b and is of Kenyan and Horn of Africa origin.
quote:those south east africans who have some e3b are because of migrations of horn africans to the south!!
You do realize that most of the native south East African population can be divided into;
Cushite speakers who originate in the Horn/Rift;
Nilo Saharan speakers who originate in the Horn/Sudan;
Khoisan speakers who also possibly originated in the Horn.
The Gorowaa, and Burunge of Tanzania, the Borana and Masai of Kenya, the Datoga and the Sandawe are every bit as East African as the Somali.
They just migrated South, whereas the Somali migrated Northwards.
quote:most east africans like kenyans and tanzanians look straight up bantu
The Bantu are the largest linguistic-ethnic group in East Africa today, but they migrated from Cameroon and Nigeria in historic times. E3b is most common in the Native Cushite, Nilo-Saharan and Khoisan speakers who have lived in East Africa for 1000's of years before the Bantu.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 18 August 2005).]
E3b is north east african!! those south east africans who have some e3b are because of migrations of horn africans to the south!!
most south east africans like kenyans and tanzanians look straight up bantu idi amin type!! cushites and their descendants are a small minority there!
Oromo and Borana come from Kenya. They actually migrated northward into Northeast Africa. Borana do indeed have the highest levels of E3b of any population thus far.
Borana do NOT look like mulatoos. They are indeed unequivocally Black (dark pigmentation).
Cushites and Aethiopids in kenya make less then 3-5% of the population!!!
Oromos in north Kenya came recently from Southern and Central Ethiopia and The Somalis in north Kenya are a tribe from Northern Somalia!!!
Just ask any of the Eastern African posters here.
quote: rasol wrote: Cushite speakers who originate in the Horn/Rift;
Nilo Saharan speakers who originate in the Horn/Sudan;
Khoisan speakers who also possibly originated in the Horn.
BullShit!!!
The only ones who originated in the Horn of Africa are Cushites/Aethiopids and possible Khoisans. There NO Nilo-Saharan speakers in Somalia and Djibouti only a FEW (who come in VERY small numbers) In Ethiopia and Eritrea and those are because of recent migration!!!
quote: rasol wrote: The Gorowaa, and Burunge of Tanzania, the Borana and Masai of Kenya, the Datoga and the Sandawe are every bit as East African as the Somali.
They just migrated South, whereas the Somali migrated Northwards.
BULLSHIT!!!
Maasai and those others (Oromos excluded) ARE VERY MIXED WITH BANTUS AND DINKAS/NILO-SAHARANS!!
quote: rasol wrote: E3b is East African but it is most common South of Kenya
Fucking Bullshit Again!!!
E3b is NOT common South of Kenya but is very RARE
over 65-70% of Kenya and 90% of tanzania are BANTUS and look like BANTUS and they have little to NO E3b.
[This message has been edited by leba (edited 18 August 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by osirion: Oromo and Borana come from Kenya. They actually migrated northward into Northeast Africa. Borana do indeed have the highest levels of E3b of any population thus far.
Oromos in North Kenya came from Ethiopia you idiot. You dont know anything about East Africa. They(Borano's) themselves even claim roots from southern Ethiopia!!
[This message has been edited by leba (edited 18 August 2005).]
quote:Ever heard of replacement? It happened in parts of East Africa with intruding Negroid Y-chromosomes, so why not with mtDNA as well?
Go on, develop your hypothesis a bit more. Waring West African females killing off the women and enslaving the men. So unlike the situation in Northwest Africa we have a Black female Ghengis Khan raping and pillaging. It can't be a slow gradual replacement since there would be residual evidence of Caucasoid mtDNA (I chuckle at the thought of mtDNA being Caucasoid - like mitochodria have traits - that is laughable but lets talk; not putting that in a book).
E3b is [b]NOT common South of Kenya but is very RARE
over 65-70% of Kenya and 90% of tanzania are BANTUS and look like BANTUS and they have little to NO E3b.
Stupid, underived[E3b*] is most common *SOUTH* of Kenya. It atains a frequency of 37% in the *BANTU* Wairak[Luis et tal 2004] and a frequency of 30.8 % in South African Khwe(Cruciani tal 2004]
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
SuperCar's comments also show keen understanding of what the study is saying. 
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