Welcome back AMR. But not surprisingly you are still repeating the same nonsense.
'Black' is a reference to dark skin color, and that no populations are truly black but fall into different shades of brown.
But if by 'brown' you mean having 'white' ancestry, then NO the Egyptians were not brown because they are natives of Africa descended from Africans pure and simple.
Posts: 26307 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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AE, from the way they depicted themselves seem to have been of a redish brown hue (which I suppose can be considered medium brown?). They were different from lighter people in the North (both West and East) and from the people in the South, so called Nubians. Not different from Puntites though, who where from the South too it seems.
In any event, why does it matter if they were "black" or not. They didn't look like most Africans, Europeans, Asians, etc, that's for sure.
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quote:They were different from the people in the South, so called Nubians.
^ Simplistic and so, ultimately false.
A comparison with neighboring Nile Valley skeletal samples suggests that the high status cemetery represents an endogamous ruling or elite segment of the local population at Naqada, which is more closely related to populations in northern Nubia than to neighboring populations in southern Egypt.
- American Journal of Physical Anthropology, Vol. 101, Issue 2, October 1996, Pages: 237-246
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quote:Originally posted by Miguel Antunes: Did black in AE also meant redish brown?
huh? babe ya gotta understand when the Kemetians described themselves as the "black people" it wasnt a reference to actual skin color, but it was an ethnic reference in the sense that black was the divine color to the egyptians, like it is for many groups in Africa. understand?
Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Miguel Antunes: AE, from the way they depicted themselves seem to have been of a redish brown hue (which I suppose can be considered medium brown?). They were different from lighter people in the North (both West and East) and from the people in the South, so called Nubians. Not different from Puntites though, who where from the South too it seems.
Um, about Nubins, egyptians actually portrayed Nubians are "reddish-brown" too, especially those in lower nubia that were in direct egyptian influence, but when the egyptians extended their control all the way to the central sudan, they encountered different ethnic groups, many of which had far darker skin than the lower nubians, so thats why the nubians (really the kushites) started to be portrayed as black.....ya feel me?
Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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Yes, I do. Thanks for the answers. It's true, I checked some Nubian/Meroe depictions and there's plenty of redish brown people there, as well as darker ones. Interesting that bit about the black colour being divine. Any particular reason for that? Perhaps the redish brown Egyptians got their language/knowledge in part from darker people than then, giving them a divine status? Aren't the origins of AE further south?
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quote:Originally posted by Miguel Antunes: Yes, I do. Thanks for the answers. It's true, I checked some Nubian/Meroe depictions and there's plenty of redish brown people there, as well as darker ones. Interesting that bit about the black colour being divine. Any particular reason for that? Perhaps the redish brown Egyptians got their language/knowledge in part from darker people than then, giving them a divine status? Aren't the origins of AE further south?
Ya welcome, always happy to clear things up . And yes the original AE came from further south, in the region called "Nubia"/Sudan and this explains why during the predynastic period there was such a uniformity of culture stretching from khartoum to cairo. And both Nubia and Upper Egypt had kingdoms at around the same time, in 3300 BC, and the white crown probably came from the former...
Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ And you aren't one of those who espouse the theory that West Africans are somehow "exiled Egyptians", are you??
No, I don't espouse that West Africans are "exiled Egyptians." That's all inclusive. I think SOME people in West Africa came from the east. However, all I asked about was the title of that book. How did we get here? I simply asked about what language is that book originally written in. That's it!
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quote:Originally posted by Miguel Antunes: Did black in AE also meant redish brown?
Your question makes no sense..
To make sense of your question you -must- know the following ->
What is the word in AE for Black?
What is the world in AE for 'reddish-brown'?
If we know the answer, we can answer your question.
If we don't know the answer then any comment on the subject is mindless prattle.
Too much of that on this forum, lately.
I don't know the answer, and hence I asked. You said that according to AE they were black. To me, it seemed that you were talking about their skin color. At least the other poster was. That's how it seemed to me anyway. And thus my question. You should get some clues from Obelisk as on to how approach people and answer their questions. Believe me, things will go smother if you do so.
Really let's compare:
Things I learned from your answer? Zero. Things I learned from Obelik's answer? At least 2 or 3. And my person was enriched from such knownledge.
Regarding this: "Simplistic and so, ultimately false."
And then you quote an anthropological study. Well, had you payed atention to my post and not taking quotes out of context and altering them you would notice that I was talking about the AE depictions, not skulls or anything. AE did have a particular way of depicting themselves which was indeed different from the way they depicted at least some of their southern neighbors. Aparently, the use of the word Nubian by myself wasn't correct, or only partially so, since what I had said only applied to some Nubians, and specially to people who lived further south than say, Karthoum. Again, your answer failed to provide me with any knowledge other than that certain skulls (of the elite no less, always a small %) in Naqada Egypt were closer to their southern Nubian neighbors than to other Southern Egyptians. Not even a time frame is given. In short, very little is revealed. Certanly nothing that implies that AE didn't depicted their southern neighbors which I labeled as Nubians, seemingly wrongly in part, in a different way from them. Again, I urge you look at the example of Obelisk and to abandon your posture which leads to nothing really except unecessary conflict.
Why did AE called themselves "Black", rasol? I take it Obelisk's answer of it being a divine and sacred colour for them is correct.
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quote: Great. There's more questions comming though, lol.
Great.
quote:Why did AE called themselves "Black", rasol?
Because they had dark skin, unlike the Asiatics to the North who did not, and whom they called Reds.
quote:I take it Obelisk's answer of it being a divine and sacred colour for them is correct.
In Kemetic culture, sacredness and Blackness are one and the same.
The AE were a Black people of divine origin, according to their ideology, and for the AE, their Blackness in their skin was divine.
Osirus, aka Kem Wer ->The Great Black
If Osiris was of Nubian origin, although born at Thebes, it would be easy to understand why the struggle between Set and Horus took place in Nubia. In any case, it is striking that the goddess Isis, according to the legend, has precisely the *same skin color* that Nubians always have, and that the god Osiris has what seems to me an ethnic epithet indicating his Nubian origin. - Amelineau
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"Because they had dark skin, unlike the Asiatics to the North who did not, and whom they called Reds."
Does this means that they called themselves black because they were comparing themselves to the Asiatics, or are you simply giving an example of how other people, in this case Asiatics, were called?
Thanks for the answers anyway.
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quote:rasol: Because they had dark skin, unlike the Asiatics to the North who did not, and whom they called Reds."
quote:Does this means that they called themselves black because they were comparing themselves to the Asiatics
All references to color are relative.
quote:or are you simply giving an example of how other people, in this case Asiatics, were called?
The two are not mutually exclusive.
Again *all* references to color are relative.
One can only be Black or Red or for that matter tall or short or skinny or fat or young or old.... 'relative' to something or someone else.
Red and Black as color references appear in several African contexts, such as Khoisan Red, Zulu Black, Fulani Red, Wolof Black, or in some cultures Reds and Blacks exists within the same ethnic group.
It's always relative yes, it depends specifically on Asiatics....no.
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Interesting. Though I wouldn't say it has to be relative. Can't colors be absolute? Relative would be more like concepts such as dark/light. Wouldn't a isolated society still have the concept of color and atribute the different ones names? And of course they would describe themselves with the best color that matched their own color? If all humans were of the exact same pigmentation wouldn't they still use a color to describe themselves?
This might be off topic though..
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Why did AE called themselves "Black", rasol? I take it Obelisk's answer of it being a divine and sacred colour for them is correct.
Black was a sacred color for many reasons. The reason for Osiris being black was he was a son of Geb. Actually Osiris is part of a recurring theme of Egyptian cosmology that originated in the South. This theme is one of a trinity of mother, father and son, ie "the sun". In the extreme south of Egypt there was the trinity of Khnum, Satis and Anuket.
quote: Khnum (Khenmew, Khnemu, Khenmu, Chnum), from the Egyptian 'unite', 'join' or 'build', was an ancient deity of fertility, water and the great potter who created children and their ka at their conception. He was mentioned in the pyramid texts and the pyramid builder Khufu's name was actually 'Khnum-Khufu' meaning 'Khnum is his Protector'. His cult was popular before the cult of Re eclipsed it. The next pyramid builders were his son and grandson who added 'Re' to their names - Khafra and Menkaura. Khnum was possibly even a predynastic god. The Egyptians believed that he was the guardian of the source of the Nile who was originally a Nile god, but who became a helper of Hapi. His role changed from river god to the one who made sure that the right amount of silt was released into the water during the inundation. In working with the silt, the very soil that the ancient Egyptian potters used, he became the great potter who not only molded men and women, but who molded the gods themselves and the world.
Khnum is one of the earliest deities and originates in Sudan. He is the creator of the Nile inundation, from Up River in inner Africa and is responsible for the black silt of the inundation. This is where black became sacred, not just because of the inundation, but because the fertile Nile silt was also symbolic of the clay from which mankind was born. As we all know, mankind was born in Africa to the South of Egypt, along the Nile in the region of Kenya and Ethiopia. Obviously this would have been a black person. So blackness became sacred as a sign of fertility, both in terms of the soil but also as a sign of the man CREATED from the soil, in AFRICA. This also means black becomes a sign of creation itself, with black the invisible essence of the universe from which all things were created, which became associated with Amun.
Also keep in mind that Khnum as creator of the gods and their "souls" or essences is not just mere abstraction. The birth of the patterns of many gods and religions we see today have their origins along the Nile in Egypt. Just as the pattern of civilization,writing and culture also have their origins along the Nile as well. So these symbols are not just abstractions they also reflect fundamental biological and human realities that are fundamental to Egypt's place IN AFRICA.
This symbolism then becomes associated with Osiris, as Osiris is son of Geb, the earth deity, who is often shown in intercourse with the sky goddess, Nut. Both are children of Re a late deity who rose out of the sacred mound of creation (fashioned by Khnum) and was the cosmic egg of creation. From this mound and cosmic egg was born Re and he gave birth to his children, Nut and Geb being two of the first. Khnum was worshipped in the Old Kingdom and was part of the symbolism behind the great pyramid built by KHNUM Khufu. It represented the sacred mound of creation or ben ben that rose from the primeval ocean, personified as an act of Khnum. Later Re became a more significant diety and was became associated with Khnum.
In later times, after the rise of Osiris, Khnum fashioned the mound of creation and also fashioned the body of Osiris. Osiris therefore symbolizes the fertility of the earth, not just in terms of crops, but the civilizing principle of agriculture and the origins of that principle among the black people created along the Nile. Therefore, over and over during Egyptian history black skin became a sign of renewal, often after periods of chaos pharaohs, queens and princesses were shown with jet black skin, symbolizing the PHYSICAL HUMAN refreshment of the Nile Valley in association with Southern peoples. This can be seen in Mentuhotep I, King Nahesu of the 13th dynasty (when famine was a major factor), Ahmose Nefertari of the 18th dynasty and so on.
Therefore, there is much symbolism for the color black, the relationship between fertile soil, the Nile and the ancestral relationship between inner Africa and Egypt. Black then is an acknowledgment of their ancestral origins being from the South, IN AFRICA.
Interestingly enough Satet (Satis) was another ancient goddess also from around the first cataract and her name was based on the term to eject (ejaculate) or to spit out. Again the symbolism of fertility is clear, even in the white crown of Upper Egypt, a sign of fertility and sperm.
quote: Satet (also known as Setet, Sathit, Satit, Sati, Setis or Satis) was an archer-goddess of the Nile cataracts. Her name comes from the term "sat" (to shoot, to eject, to pour out, to throw). It is often translated as "She Who Shoots (Arrows)" in relation to her aspect as a goddess of the hunt, or "She who Pours" with reference to her role in the innundation and her guardianship over the Nile cataracts. Her name was originally written with the hieroglyph for a shoulder knot (top left) but this was later replaced by the sign representing a cow´s skin pierced by an arrow (top right).
Shrine, one of the oldest in Egypt, possibly associated with Satis, found around Aswan:
quote: This earliest shrine was set in a niche formed by the granite rocks of the cataract just below the reconstructed temple. Now excavated, this temple dating to the Early Dynasty Period must be one of the oldest remaining temples in Egypt, though it is not certain whether Satis was worshipped here. Though no texts has been discovered, many votive offerings found within the Votive Offerings shrine are figures of children (and also a squatting ape holding it's young), and it has been suggested that the shrine may have been frequented by mothers either hoping to give birth, or bringing thanksgiving offerings for a newly born child. Originally, there was thought to have been a cult image that stood here that was protected by two small mudbrick rooms, but unfortunately, it is no longer extant. In front of these rooms was either a courtyard enclosed by more walls, or possibly even a roofed hall.
Again the theme of childbirth, fertility, the seed, sperm, the earth, cows and birth are all seen at a very early period in the South of Egypt. This theme then gets repeated throughout dynastic Egyptian history, embodied in various triads and assemblies of neters in various places. Again, the oldest dieties are Khnum, Satis(Satet), Horus, Set, Anuket(Anqet) among others. These dieties formed the basis pattern of cosmology reflected throughout dynastic Egyptian history.
Anuket:
quote: Anqet (Anket, Anuket, Anjet, Anukis) was an Old Kingdom goddess related to the Nile in the Aswan area. She was 'She Who Embraces', a name indicating that she was probably thought to hold the Nile in her arms, and thus was related to the banks of the Nile as well. Originally a daughter of the sun god Ra, she became either the wife or the daughter of Khnum. She was also a goddess of the hunt whose sacred animal was the gazelle.
quote:Originally posted by Miguel Antunes: Brown is not white either, lol.
Of course brown is not white, that is given.
But for us Egyptians, North Sudanese. We being brown we don't identify ourself as black either, like many african americans like to belive we and our ancient ancestors were simply black.
We simply don't consider Halle Perry as black as they do.
We don't appreciate that they take pictures of Gods that were painted black and say all Egypt was black.
It is as if looking at Sadat's picture 5000 years from now and claiming that all Egypt in 1981 was his colour. Plus painting a God black, does not mean that the people who worship him, were black.
Regards,
Amr
Posts: 1090 | From: Merowe-Nubia | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Miguel Antunes: Brown is not white either, lol.
Of course brown is not white, that is given.
But for us Egyptians, North Sudanese. We being brown we don't identify ourself as black either, like many african americans like to belive we and our ancient ancestors were simply black.
We simply don't consider Halle Perry as black as they do.
We don't appreciate that they take pictures of Gods that were painted black and say all Egypt was black.
It is as if looking at Sadat's picture 5000 years from now and claiming that all Egypt in 1981 was his colour. Plus painting a God black, does not mean that the people who worship him, were black.
Regards,
Amr
AMR please.
Halle is considered black because she has a BLACK African father and a white mother. She is also called black because of her brown complexion. She may not be AS BLACK as Michel Jordan, but she is still black. You on the other hand want to DENY the black ancestry of the Egyptians and generalize black as only being indicative of someone with very dark skin. Funny thing though even some of the darkest Sudanese would argue that THEY aren't black, so that in itself shows how many modern Northeast Africans have a problem with THEIR OWN ancestry.
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^On what are you basing the last piece about the darkest Sudanese not acknowledging to be black?
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It has been posted here in the past that some Africans in Sudan identify themselves as green or anything other than "black". Of course the semantics of this have more to do with the modern Arabized mindset of some Sudanese Africans where black can be equated with animistic or Christian Sudanese to the South. I can try and find the post if you want.
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It has been posted here in the past that some Africans in Sudan identify themselves as green or anything other than "black". Of course the semantics of this have more to do with the modern Arabized mindset of some Sudanese Africans where black can be equated with animistic or Christian Sudanese to the South. I can try and find the post if you want.
I remember posting stuff here some time ago about ethno-color designations applied in Sudan and Egypt, but don't recall therein where dark Sudanese denied being black.
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quote:Originally posted by Miguel Antunes: Lol, man. Ok. Though some sources for that would be appreciated.
Any physics book.
Since it is apparently too hard for you to attain elementary knowledge on your own.
I'll treat you like a baby and and guide you:
June 9, 2001 Color Is Subjective By M. David Stone
Probably the hardest concept to fully grasp about color is that color is all in your head. Literally. It's a sensation, just like touch. Like any other sensation it's (usually) caused by physical reality.
But it doesn't have any physical reality of it's own--at least not outside your body. And--this is the hard part--color is not a property of the thing that's causing the sensation. In other words, grass is not green and the sky is not blue. Rather, they have physical properties that make you perceive green and blue, but even that's true only in some circumstances. Light reaches your eye, it stimulates the sensors in your eye, those sensors register photons, and they report the sensation to your brain. It's your visual system that decides on a color.
This idea of color as a sensation rather than an intrinsic property of an object is a subtle distinction, but it's not a trivial one or some sort of academic hairsplitting.
It's central to understanding why it's so hard to match colors--whether between two devices like a printer and camera or between any given device and the real world.
Consider: The color you see for any given object depends, in part, on the light you see it under.
An extreme example of this is that the color of your car will likely change so much under sodium lamps that you may have trouble finding it in a parking lot at night. But, as you may know, colors change even with less extreme lighting conditions--when moving from a room lit with incandescent bulbs to daylight for example.
If color were an intrinsic property of an object, and it was only the perceived color that changed under different lighting conditions, you could match the object's intrinsic color in printed output, say, under any lighting conditions, and the colors would then match under all conditions. However, because color is not an intrinsic property of the object but rather a sensation, the only thing you can match is the sensation that a particular color induces in your visual sensory system. That sensation will change under different lighting conditions, and it will usually change differently for different objects. So the best you can do is match colors under specific lighting conditions. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Yes, thanks for the reading. I was already aware of that though. The article is more about the subjectivity of colour than it's relativity, but no matter.
I don't see how does that implies that when AE called themselves black they were comparing themselves to other human beings. The only thing they would be comparing were colours. Their colour vs whatever colours they were surrounded by.
In essence, this:
"Does this means that they called themselves black because they were comparing themselves to the Asiatics" and I add "or any other human being?"
Can either have a yes or no answer.
You answer was this:
"All references to color are relative"
I take it it's as yes?
I got little off track, I must confess. That's what I really want to know. If you or anybody else happen to know of course.
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Miguel, the Egyptians acknowledged that the original human beings on earth were born as an action of the biochemical nature of the universe. In other words, black humans from inner Africa born from the dark rich soil (volcanic soil) of the universe. This is the symbolism of blackness that means black man of the black earth born from the rich black earth spewed forth by the fire of the volcano, from the cosmic egg at the top of the cosmic mountain, a volcanic eruption that produces black soil in Kenya and Ethiopia. That is a biological, historical and anthropological fact that the Egyptians acknowledged throughout the dynastic period. In the Egyptian world view, the earth started in the South and their maps were oriented in the South, showing INNER AFRICA at the top, the source of life and light in terms of the Nile and human beings. Just as black was the color they used to depict southern Africans, black was also the color they used for themselves to signify REBIRTH, BIRTH, NOURISHMENT and FERTILITY all of which originates from deities worshiped in and around Aswan and the Sudan, like Khnum and Satis. This is the seed of the earth and the womb of the earth from which all mankind was born and all the patterns of human activity were born.
Therefore, the only reason why this blackness and its relationship to people is questioned is because Eurasians want THEMSELVES to be the center of all human history and civilized thought. Because of their racist belief that WHITE SKIN is a superior trait in human development, even though for 2 million years white skin DID NOT EXIST in the hominid species, they have created this need to question such a relationship.
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Fascinating stuff really. So actually, they were comparing themselves with their Southern Neighboor from which they came and also the life giving land.
So called Asians had no impact in their decision to call themselves black it seems.
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Actually Asiatics represented the red land, the desert land, the barren lands and chaos. These people were their lifelong enemies. They represented chaos because these people were raiders and tore up crops and did not maintain the land and traditions the way the Egyptians did. Therefore they were contrasted against the blackness of the Egyptian world view, which represented peace, prosperity and nourishment. Because of this after periods of chaos, which many times involved Asiatic invaders, the kings who initiated the renewals came from the South and had assistance from their Southern neighbors. This symbolism can even be seen in the texts from Egypt, where the pharaoh and his armies are said to have swept down the valley (like the inundation) and pushed out the Asiatics to feed and nourish the black people.
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quote:Miguel Antunes: Fascinating stuff really. So actually, they were comparing themselves with their Southern Neighboor from which they came and also the life giving land.
So called Asians had no impact in their decision to call themselves black it seems.
We should be carefull here, they called their nation black *not* themselves, Akhenaten wasn't called kemsenaten, Thutmose wasn't called Kemsemose, however there was an almost litteraly black princess who was called kemsit.
Princess Kemsit
Their nation was called Kemet (black), the people however identified according to their diety and had no perception of the modern new world usage of "black" as racial identity.
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quote:Doug M: where the pharaoh and his armies are said to have swept down the valley (like the inundation) and pushed out the Asiatics to feed and nourish the black people.
Source please? in particular the part of "black people".
And also don't you see the contradiction here, if this is true, then why would they call these people the "black people" if they themselves identified as black people? Does it sound logical to you if the assyrians said we are going down the mountains to the palestinians so to feed the "white people" when there is almost no physical distinction between assyrians and the palestinians?
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"We should be carefull here, they called their nation black *not* themselves, Akhenaten wasn't called kemsenaten, Thutmose wasn't called Kemsemose, however there was an almost litteraly black princess who was called kemsit"
They didn't call themselves the "black people"? That's what I mean, not their names meaning black, sorry.
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quote:Doug M: These people were their lifelong enemies. They represented chaos because these people were raiders and tore up crops and did not maintain the land and traditions the way the Egyptians did.
Not all the asiatics were enemies, in fact during the middle kingdom in particular the Amarna period there are these tablets of letters deciphered showing correspondence between asiatic rulers and Amenhotep lll and later Akhenaten. Most were friendly and even obedient towards Akhenatons father and he himself, it was only the Hittites they had problem with.
Here is a letter where an Asiatic king asking Akhenaten to send him troops because another Asiatic king threatens to invade his kingdom.
Great King: May the Lady of Gubla grant power to my lord. I fall at the feet of my lord, my Sun, 7 times and 7 times. May the king, my lord, know that Gubla (ie: Byblos), the maidservant of the king from ancient times, is safe and sound. The war, however, of the Apiru against me is severe. (Our) sons and daughters and the furnishings of the houses are gone, since they have been sold [in] the land of Yarimuta for our provisions to keep us alive. "For the lack of a cultivator, my field is like a woman without a husband." I have written repeatedly to the palace because of the illness afflicting me, [but there is no one] who has looked at the words that keep arriving. May the king give heed [to] the words of [his] servant... ...The Apiru killed Ad[una the king] of Irqata-(Arqa), but there was no one who said anything to Abdi-Ashirta, and so they go on taking (territory for themselves). Miya, the ruler of Arašni, seized Ar[d]ata, and just now the men of Ammiy<a> have killed their lord. I am afraid. May the king be informed that the king of Hatti has seized all the countries that were vassals of the king of Mitan<ni>...
Here is another Asiatic kings letter to Akhenaton informing him about the political state on the levant.
To the king, my lord, my god, my Sun, the Sun from the sky: Message of Yapahu, the ruler of Gazru, your servant, the dirt at your feet. I indeed prostrate myself at the feet of the king, my lord, my god, my Sun...7 times and 7 times, on the stomach and on the back. I am indeed guarding the place of the king, my lord, the Sun of the sky, where I am, and all the things the king, my lord, has written me, I am indeed carrying out--everything! Who am I, a dog, and what is my house...and what is anything I have, that the orders of the king, my lord, the Sun from the sky, should not obey constantly?
And here is a letter from Akhenaton himself, apparently pissed of at another king from levant who seems to defy his orders.
Say to Aziru, ruler of Amurru: Thus the king, your lord (ie: Akhenaten), saying: The ruler of Gubla (ie: Byblos), whose brother had cast him away at the gate, said to you, "Take me and get me into the city. There is much silver, and I will give it to you. Indeed there is an abundance of everything, but not with me [here]." Thus did the ruler (Rib-Hadda) speak to you. Did you not write to the king, my lord saying, "I am your servant like all the previous mayors (ie: vassals) in his city"? Yet you acted delinquently by taking the mayor whose brother had cast him away at the gate, from his city.
He (Rib-Hadda) was residing in Sidon and, following your own judgment, you gave him to (some) mayors. Were you ignorant of the treacherousness of the men? If you really are the king's servant, why did you not denounce him before the king, your lord, saying, "This mayor has written to me saying, 'Take me to yourself and get me into my city'"? And if you did act loyally, still all the things you wrote were not true. In fact, the king has reflected on them as follows, "Everything you have said is not friendly."
Now the king has heard as follows, "You are at peace with the ruler of Qidsa. (Kadesh) The two of you take food and strong drink together." And it is true. Why do you act so? Why are you at peace with a ruler whom the king is fighting? And even if you did act loyally, you considered your own judgment, and his judgment did not count. You have paid no attention to the things that you did earlier. What happened to you among them that you are not on the side of the king, your lord? Consider the people that are training you for their own advantage. They want to throw you into the fire....If for any reason whatsoever you prefer to do evil, and if you plot evil, treacherous things, then you, together with your entire family, shall die by the axe of the king. So perform your service for the king, your lord, and you will live. You yourself know that the king does not fail when he rages against all of Canaan. And when you wrote saying, 'May the king, my Lord, give me leave this year, and then I will go next year to the king, my Lord. (ie: to Egypt) If this is impossible, I will send my son in my place'--the king, your Lord, let you off this year in accordance with what you said. Come yourself, or send your son [now], and you will see the king at whose sight all lands live.,
Quite obvious from these letters Doug M that the asiatics were not all the enemies of Egypt, most were infact just satellite states of Egypt and obeyed the Egyptian rulers.
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Aubin sets himself the task of explaining why the rout of Sennacherib's army, by an Egyptian force under Kushite command, has been largely overlooked by history. Basing his analysis on close readings of the relevant passages in the Bible and on extensive research into several centuries of scholarship, Aubin turns the denial of the African presence into a psycho-historical drama. Aubin believes that Sayce, as a "cosseted adjunct" of British imperialism, could not accept or tolerate the idea of a sophisticated black Egyptian dynasty, let alone their *instrumental role in the history of the West.*
In other words, at a time when scholarship was most proud of its objective methods, it succumbed to the most subjective of prejudices. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Doug M: These people were their lifelong enemies. They represented chaos because these people were raiders and tore up crops and did not maintain the land and traditions the way the Egyptians did.
Not all the asiatics were enemies, in fact during the middle kingdom in particular the Amarna period there are these tablets of letters deciphered showing correspondence between asiatic rulers and Amenhotep lll and later Akhenaten. Most were friendly and even obedient towards Akhenatons father and he himself, it was only the Hittites they had problem with.
Here is a letter where an Asiatic king asking Akhenaten to send him troops because another Asiatic king threatens to invade his kingdom.
Great King: May the Lady of Gubla grant power to my lord. I fall at the feet of my lord, my Sun, 7 times and 7 times. May the king, my lord, know that Gubla (ie: Byblos), the maidservant of the king from ancient times, is safe and sound. The war, however, of the Apiru against me is severe. (Our) sons and daughters and the furnishings of the houses are gone, since they have been sold [in] the land of Yarimuta for our provisions to keep us alive. "For the lack of a cultivator, my field is like a woman without a husband." I have written repeatedly to the palace because of the illness afflicting me, [but there is no one] who has looked at the words that keep arriving. May the king give heed [to] the words of [his] servant... ...The Apiru killed Ad[una the king] of Irqata-(Arqa), but there was no one who said anything to Abdi-Ashirta, and so they go on taking (territory for themselves). Miya, the ruler of Arašni, seized Ar[d]ata, and just now the men of Ammiy<a> have killed their lord. I am afraid. May the king be informed that the king of Hatti has seized all the countries that were vassals of the king of Mitan<ni>...
Here is another Asiatic kings letter to Akhenaton informing him about the political state on the levant.
To the king, my lord, my god, my Sun, the Sun from the sky: Message of Yapahu, the ruler of Gazru, your servant, the dirt at your feet. I indeed prostrate myself at the feet of the king, my lord, my god, my Sun...7 times and 7 times, on the stomach and on the back. I am indeed guarding the place of the king, my lord, the Sun of the sky, where I am, and all the things the king, my lord, has written me, I am indeed carrying out--everything! Who am I, a dog, and what is my house...and what is anything I have, that the orders of the king, my lord, the Sun from the sky, should not obey constantly?
And here is a letter from Akhenaton himself, apparently pissed of at another king from levant who seems to defy his orders.
Say to Aziru, ruler of Amurru: Thus the king, your lord (ie: Akhenaten), saying: The ruler of Gubla (ie: Byblos), whose brother had cast him away at the gate, said to you, "Take me and get me into the city. There is much silver, and I will give it to you. Indeed there is an abundance of everything, but not with me [here]." Thus did the ruler (Rib-Hadda) speak to you. Did you not write to the king, my lord saying, "I am your servant like all the previous mayors (ie: vassals) in his city"? Yet you acted delinquently by taking the mayor whose brother had cast him away at the gate, from his city.
He (Rib-Hadda) was residing in Sidon and, following your own judgment, you gave him to (some) mayors. Were you ignorant of the treacherousness of the men? If you really are the king's servant, why did you not denounce him before the king, your lord, saying, "This mayor has written to me saying, 'Take me to yourself and get me into my city'"? And if you did act loyally, still all the things you wrote were not true. In fact, the king has reflected on them as follows, "Everything you have said is not friendly."
Now the king has heard as follows, "You are at peace with the ruler of Qidsa. (Kadesh) The two of you take food and strong drink together." And it is true. Why do you act so? Why are you at peace with a ruler whom the king is fighting? And even if you did act loyally, you considered your own judgment, and his judgment did not count. You have paid no attention to the things that you did earlier. What happened to you among them that you are not on the side of the king, your lord? Consider the people that are training you for their own advantage. They want to throw you into the fire....If for any reason whatsoever you prefer to do evil, and if you plot evil, treacherous things, then you, together with your entire family, shall die by the axe of the king. So perform your service for the king, your lord, and you will live. You yourself know that the king does not fail when he rages against all of Canaan. And when you wrote saying, 'May the king, my Lord, give me leave this year, and then I will go next year to the king, my Lord. (ie: to Egypt) If this is impossible, I will send my son in my place'--the king, your Lord, let you off this year in accordance with what you said. Come yourself, or send your son [now], and you will see the king at whose sight all lands live.,
Quite obvious from these letters Doug M that the asiatics were not all the enemies of Egypt, most were infact just satellite states of Egypt and obeyed the Egyptian rulers.
Most like who? Keep in mind that the Mittani were on the Northern Front of the Egyptian frontier that had been established by the "Napoleon" of Egypt Thutmosis III. The "friendliness" of the Mittani was based on multiple factors, one was possibly the growing threat of the Hittites, who eventually overthrew the Mittani and the other was possibly a ploy to regain some foothold in areas of the Levant that were under Egyptian hegemony. The rest of the Levant was under Egyptian hegemony and some of them defected to the Hittites as they conquered in the region. These are the "asiatics" , those closest to Egypt's northern borders, that the Egyptians constantly guarded against and sought to subjugate because these areas are where many of Egypt's greatest threats came from. Therefore, these regions were seen as a buffer against even bigger powers to the North.
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quote:Miguel Antunes: Fascinating stuff really. So actually, they were comparing themselves with their Southern Neighboor from which they came and also the life giving land.
So called Asians had no impact in their decision to call themselves black it seems.
We should be carefull here, they called their nation black *not* themselves, Akhenaten wasn't called kemsenaten, Thutmose wasn't called Kemsemose, however there was an almost litteraly black princess who was called kemsit.
Princess Kemsit
Their nation was called Kemet (black), the people however identified according to their diety and had no perception of the modern new world usage of "black" as racial identity.
Wrong. The reason Kemsit was black is the same reason Mentuhotep depicted himself as black and this is because of the alliance between the Egyptians in the South and the Southerners who helped usher in the Middle Kingdom. This was an overt politico religious statement, saying that the king has refreshed the land and nourished the people and replenished Egypt with assistance from inner Africa from which comes the rich black soil of the inundation AND BLACK PEOPLE OF THE SOIL, the Egyptians.
Any way you look at it this jet black Queen was mother of the dynasty and a southerner and a symbol of the royal line and the mother of the next king and represented a blood tie to the south and southern people, meaning ancestral, cultural and political tie between Egypt and areas to the South. This was taken even further by Amenemhaat who was from around Aswan and claimed his ascent to the throne as a fulfillment of the prophecy of Neferti as a child of a woman of Ta Seti. Again the overt connection between Egypt and their southern neighbors is overt and consistent with the colors in the art, where black represents fertility, rebirth, creation, the Nile soil AND BLACK PEOPLE, hence the name of the country, Kemet the PEOPLE of the black soil, meaning BLACK PEOPLE.
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quote:Originally posted by Miguel Antunes: Yes, thanks for the reading. I was already aware of that though. The article is more about the subjectivity of colour than it's relativity, but no matter.
You asked, why can't color be absolute?
Objectivity is to absolute, as subjectivity is to relative.
Color is not absolute because it is subjective.
Color is subjective and relative.
Color is not objective and therefore cannot be absolute.
Understand better?
quote:I don't see how does that implies that when AE called themselves black they were comparing themselves to other human beings.
Continuing in the form of antonyms:
kememu - black people. deshretu - red people.
The concept of black people and red people is relative. The dialectic of black and red in mdw ntr - > is relative.
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posted
What I said that it was inherent in the symbolic use of blackness as seen throughout Kemetian thought. There was no dichotomy between black meaning skin or black meaning earth and black meaning invisible force that created all things. They were all tied together as one coherent philosophy of the origin of man and creative force of nature. Khnum is creator of the inundation. Khnum created man from the rich black soil that flowed from within Africa. Hence, the first man and the first creation of man is symbolized as black as well as symbolized as first creation and the beginning and the infinite unseen power of the universe to create life. Khnum was the father of all the gods. Ra was born from the primeval mound, which rose up out of nun and spewed forth flame, which were the ancient volcanoes in Kenya and Ethiopa. From this volcanic activity spewed forth air, water, fire and earth: the children of Re.
quote:Originally posted by AMR1: Of course brown is not white, that is given.
But for us Egyptians, North Sudanese. We being brown we don't identify ourself as black either, like many african americans like to belive we and our ancient ancestors were simply black.
But what you fail to realize is that no human is truly black but have skin color that ranges in various shades of brown with the darkest only approaching black. In fact most Africans are actually 'brown' in color anyway. There are many people in West Africa that are lighter in complexion than North Sudanese but they are still considered 'black'!
Also, you consider 'brown' to mean mixed even though most Northern Sudanese are not 'mixed' and non of their ancient ancestors were 'mixed' with foreigners at all!
quote:We simply don't consider Halle Perry as black as they do.
That's because the label 'black' in America is purely social and political in nature with issues such as the "one drop rule". Halle Berry is considered black only because her father was black.
I don't know what this has to do with ancient Egyptians and especially ancient northern Sudanese who have no mixed ancestry from whites.
quote:We don't appreciate that they take pictures of Gods that were painted black and say all Egypt was black.
Then you obviously don't appreciate the fact that the Egyptians called their own country Kemet and themselves Kememu all meaning black!
quote:It is as if looking at Sadat's picture 5000 years from now and claiming that all Egypt in 1981 was his colour. Plus painting a God black, does not mean that the people who worship him, were black.
Silly strawmen. Sadat is a modern Egyptian. Also, the Egyptians painted their gods black because they considered that color holy and sacred unlike their modern Arabized descendants who hold the opposite view about the color!
quote:Regards,
Amr
LOL For those of you who don't know, AMR is just an Arabized northern Sudanese who hates his black/African ancestry. He prefers having a mixed-Arab (which he believes is superior to pure African) heritage, and goes so far to say that northeast Africans from Egyptians to northern Sudanese were "mixed" from prehistoric times which explains how they were able to develop their great civilizatons. As the Arabized one believes-- Africans look better, are smarter, and are more developed when they are "mixed". LOLPosts: 26307 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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. And yes the original AE came from further south, in the region called "Nubia"/Sudan and this explains why during the predynastic period there was such a uniformity of culture stretching from khartoum to cairo. And both Nubia and Upper Egypt had kingdoms at around the same time, in 3300 BC, and the white crown probably came from the former...
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