quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Yawn indeed. You must be tired of yanking my d|ck. Or maybe not. That is what your clientele over there in jolly old England, Wales, or whatever must love about you.
Even her insults are copies of "Horus" the Nigerian poster. LOL!
Jesus Mary, a little originality, please! Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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^ And didn't I tell you to take your dirty wiener sucking-ass back to work in the stalls?
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeingawhore: Even her insults are copies of "Horus" the Nigerian poster. LOL!
"her"? Hey, I'm a male and proud of it unlike your sexually confused tranny-ass. I know that's prevalent in Europe. In what way did I "copy" Horus? You need to get your eyes checked. Rather you need to get your brain checked. Speaking of Horus, I should contact him and remind him to do all of us here at Egyptsearch a favor and throttle your ass, but then you might enjoy it.
quote:Jesus Mary, a little originality, please!
For someone so frightened of Jews, you seem to love to invoke their names. But I doubt ANYONE let alone those great historical Jews can help you. Posts: 26613 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: did dana say that girl below was not black?
Since the Rashaida girl lives in Africa, is wearing braids and my color or a little darker than me, Anguish, I would say she is a "black". However, I live in the U.S. and there are of course those who would like to call her non-black since she is a Rashaida.
Lyin'ess doesn't call him/herself lyin'ess for nothing. She/he is a troll that is trying to confuse the issues. I was talking of the yellowbronzish Arab woman that Lyin'ess posted when I said "of course i don't consider her black."
I wrote above that the Rashaida an Arab tribe still living in Arabia and the Horn who claim descent from the Abs. I had said that the Rashaida are still taking fair skinned wives/concubines like other Arabs have been doing for centuries. The Abs were claimed as black-skinned people by Arab historians. The 'Abs come from the Banu Ghatafan or Ghutayf of the Qays ibn Ailan (as did the equally "black" Hawazin and Sulaym) and who were also called Black and/or "akhdar" in Arabic writings like almost every Arabian people of the early Muslim and pre'Islamic era. It is likely that her Arab ancestors were much darker than she is.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: ... And Eliyas was indeed Elias, just as Bariq was Baraq, and Aram was Aram and Kenan Canaan.The original Jews came from Peleg who were brethren of the south Arabian Qahtan - all one and the same people.
It is a little known fact that Israelite writings describe people to their immediate south in Midyan as black like Moses' wife etc.
How extensive was mixing with foreigners for them to become much lighter?
By the way, who were those people dancing in those youtube videos?
quote: Let us be for real. Black is a political term in the US so of course she is not black in my book. Banu Shaiba descend from the Hashem clan of the Quraysh. He is what would have been called "white" or clear complexioned black man "white" is supposed to have meant a black with a clear complexion with a brownish undertone or one that is light and clear enough that doesn't show any black blotchiness. ....The Banu Shaiba are derived from a man named Shaiba who was of the Hashemite "famille ou dominait le sang negre" from Etudes sur le Cycles des Omayyades." 1930
That is to say he was from the Banu Hashem family where "black blood" has dominated due to not wanting to mix with foreigners like the Syrian, Iranian and Byzantine people then surrounding them. All sub-clans of the Quraysh until a late period were noted for their blackness. This includes Banu Zuhra, Jumah, Makzumi, as well as the Kenaniyyah clans they derived from.
Muhammed's uncles on both maternal and paternal sides are described as black. Tariq quoted Uncle Saad ibn Waqqas a famous leader, brother of the Prophet's mother. He is described as black and very tall with a flat nose by el Dhahabi. He was of pure Arabian stock.
You will never see a movie on Al Jazair made about the Quraysh in the Middle East as they looked. Believe me.
All members of the family of Muhamed (pbuh)when they are described are described as black in early Arabic writings. Many individuals from various clans of the Quraysh aside from cousins and grandparents of the Prophet are called black-skinned - and understand when one talks about "black" in Arabic you are not necessarily talking about the black of an African American but a literally black person.
Tariq quotes 9th c. Jahiz of Iraq and 14th c. el Dhahabi of Syria and calling an uncle on the other side "huge and black-skinned". And yet today most people would have a big problem with a depiction of Muhammed as a black man although he came from a black tribe descended from other documented black tribes.
Even the poet Rumi made the comment that to Middle Eastern Arabized people in his time - you dare to insult black people when the pure Arabs of the Prophet's family still live when their blood had been tainted by the (Rum).
Black or Adam - was the color of the early Arab or Semite and "shadeed al udmah" jet black and "akhdar" near black (literally green) like many tribes across the modern Sudan extending toward the Atlantic.
The fact that these blacks brought their language northward in various times and that other people came to speak their languages does not modify this truth.
Modern man of the Banu Kinaniyyah of Jericho in Israel.
The Banu Kinaniyyah founded towns called Jerichos or Yerakh along the southwest coast of Arabia in the Yemen first. Just as the Sulaym or Soleym founded towns named Arwe Sulayim, Salem or Salim in south Arabia before settling north among the "white Syrians" founding Hierosolyma or Yerusalim.
Yes, remember seeing old photos of Hashemite royals and I couldn't help but notice their appearance as light-skinned black people.
You can even see the traces of black ancestry today.
What program was that man on BET shown, by the way?
I would agree you can see traces of Banu Hashem in them but not enough to really compare to the modern black Hashem in Arabia and Sudan. The Banu Hashem that I am speaking of is still a "famille ou dominait le sang negre" (a family where black blood dominates) Etudes sur le Cycles des Omayyades." 1930 The Shaiba man above is of the Banu Hashem they are not a fair-skinned people or yellowishish looking people. They are not Syrian looking people like those you have posted here whose ancestors come relatively recently directly from concubines or other imported women. Quraysh whom are described as black in complexion are derived from the Banu Kenanah or Kinaniyy who still live in Israel and the southern Hejaz or Yemen their original homeland.
That video photo was posted on line by someone else and was taken probably from youtube where you will see videos of these people (Kenaaniyyah).
The videos I posted are those of the Jizan Asir people, Tihamah and Shamran people of Hejaz and Yemen, otherwise known as Simron or Zimran or southern kingdom of Israel. I thought I put the names of the peoples under each and every one of the videos I posted, but maybe not. Tihamah is the land of Kush and Kanaan, the Wadi Bisha is still also the land of tribe of Kunana and Falsah (Philisi) and Faniqa (Fenkhu) alnog the Eritraean Sea.
I posted the Shamran video a few times:
Kamal Salibi writes - "Among orthodox Jews they are known as k smrwnym (vocalized Shomeronim), those of Shomeron or Samaria, the one time capital of the kings of Israel which survives in the west Arabian village of Shimran. They established themselves a new Samaria near modern Nablus naming two hills after the original hills of their original Yemenite homeland." P. 132 The Bible Came from Arabia
“The present territory of the Shimran comprises the hinterland of Qunfudhah and stretches across the escarpment and water divide to Wadi Bishah.”
This is in other words the southern portion of the Old Testament Israel, with Mady'an (Midianites), and Canaanites also there in their lands and places.
Thus El Tabari said "some genealogists say that Akk departed from Samran in the Yemen leaving his brother Ma'add." p. 37
The traditional Ma'add tribe is known in history or inscriptions as Ma'addei or Madi'an( Midianites).
Thus, Sa'id of Anadalusia even wrote he "Myda’an" (Midi'an) "went into al-Surat, which is a chain of mountains that cuts through the length of the peninsula from Yemen to the borders of al-Sham. Malik ibn Uthman ibn Daws went into Iraq." See the book - Science in the Medieval World by Alok Kumar, Sema’an Salem.
The people there became known as Azd Sara'at or Azd Sarah.
This is what I posted previously:
{Sa'id of Andalusia of the 11th century spoke about the Himyar and Kahlan great grandchildren of Saba descendants of Qahtan -
“Yemen was the home of the Qahtans and their place of glory from the time of Ya’rib ibn Qahtan until the destruction of Ma’rib and its surroundings during the reign of Shumar Yar’ish [also known as Tubba the Great], one of the kings of Himyar. This corresponds to the time of David – peace be upon him – one of the kings of Banu Israel, and to the time of Kykhsrru the Third, of the third dynasty of the kings of Persia; this was some 2,060 solar years after the Flood. Khuza’ah went into Makkah {Mecca] in the land of Tahamah. Wadi’ah, Yahmad, Khuzam, Jadyl, Malik, al-Haryth, and al-Atyk went into Amman and became known as the Azd of Amman. Masihah, Myda’an, Lahab, Amir, Yashkur, Bariq, Ali ibn Uthman, Shamran, al-Hujr ibn al Hind, and Daws went into al-Surat, which is a chain of mountains that cuts through the length of the peninsula from Yemen to the borders of al-Sham. Malik iby Uthman ibn Daws went into Iraq. Jafnah and Banu Muharriq ibn Amru ibn Amir and Quda’ah went into Al Sham.” From Science in the Medieval World Alok Kumar, Sema’an Salem.” Sa'id of Andalusia
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dana, I don't have to create confusion the sketchy facts that we know 2000 years later are confusing and hard to piece together. The people who clarify based on speculation are the ones we have to look out for. You speak of the taking of fair skinned wive/concubines. Obviously this was going among the royalty of Egypt also, there are records of transactions with Canaan and elsewhere and it accounts for a number of portraits of Egyptian women looking lighter skinned than their male counterparts and I'm not talking about mythical goddesses but real people.
Isn't it convenient how certain black Muslim scholars scholars are claiming Islam is legit because they think Muhammad and Mecca of his time was black and only several decades after did Mecca become usurped by non blacks. Yet Muhammad is described as adanite (non-arab)musta`ribah of the North. How do you explain that and yet at the same time maintain that the "pure Arabs" were black Qahtani arabs? Also convenient that "red" is somewhat referring to skin color while "white" is completely is symbolic and actually means "black". It sounds slick to me. honestly, and an apologetic for continued enslavement by the Arabs of Africans.
Posts: 43199 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: dana, I don't have to create confusion the sketchy facts that we know 2000 years later are confusing and hard to piece together. The people who clarify based on speculation are the ones we have to look out for. You speak of the taking of fair skinned wive/concubines. Obviously this was going among the royalty of Egypt also, there are records of transactions with Canaan and elsewhere and it accounts for a number of portraits of Egyptian women looking lighter skinned than their male counterparts and I'm not talking about mythical goddesses but real people.
Isn't it convenient how certain black Muslim scholars scholars are claiming Islam is legit because they think Muhammad and Mecca of his time was black and only several decades after did Mecca become usurped by non blacks. Yet Muhammad is described as adanite (non-arab)musta`ribah of the North. How do you explain that and yet at the same time maintain that the "pure Arabs" were black Qahtani arabs? Also convenient that "red" is somewhat referring to skin color while "white" is completely is symbolic and actually means "black". It sounds slick to me. honestly, and an apologetic for continued enslavement by the Arabs of Africans.
I think you can speak for yourself. The facts are sketchier for some and less for others. You apparently don't know as much as you think you do about history and ancient Egypt because you would not be bringing up the fact that royalt were taking fair skinned women. If you think things are getting confusing then maybe you should stop getting your info from crystalinks, Egyptsearch or Matilda and start perusing some history books written by established Egyptologists.
You have an attitude as if most of the people on this site don't know enough to rebutt your statements and that most people are biased on this site. Although there are many ignorantt and foolish statements made there are certain things that have been somewhat clarified for us over the last 150 years by objective academic study.
As many people aside from yourself here know the fact is
1.) women have customarily been represented fairer skinned in prehistoric Saharan art and early dynastic Egyptian art although there was more naturalism in the 18th dynasty. It was nothing that started with Asiatic imports. 2.) yes, we know here on Egyptsearch forum that many Asiatic slaves or servile people were brought into Egypt. Diop even stated it was estimated that 1 in every ten upperclass family had one. 3.) I don't think anyone here is arguing that upperclass Egyptians weren't mixing with foreigners. 4.) All this doesn't mean the civilization was not founded on a black African base that was 7,000 or more years old. 5.) Most of the women you are pointing out look like African women to me and not like Asiatics so you will have to do a better job in discriminating between the African women who are depicted in art as fair and the Asiatic women who don't look African in their bodily and facial features.
On the Muslim thing, -maybe if certain things sound slick it is because you are not looking at the references people have brought up and don't know Arabic. I suggest you learn it to understand what the Arab linguists Ibn Berry, Ibn Mandour said in their texts since you are so unbelieving about what modern Arab writers like Tariq are saying. It is not always a matter of convenience. Some facts are facts.
Personally what I find unbelievable is that most writers for a thousand years talked about what the Arabs looked like, most of the words associated with them came to mean "black" or "Ethiopian" and now we are even having this discussion.
As for the Adnan and Must'arib thing - that has nothing to do with being Qahtani or non-Qahtani. Most non-Arabs that wrote about must'arib were talking in reference to the tribes of Hajar/Hagar Azdites mixing with the Rahil/Rakhel and Al Modad of the Djurham (Hadoram) in the Hijaz some thousands of years ago. You would have an interest in reading about some ancient history of the Arabs to know that though.
Yarab or Aribi was literally a clan of the Himyarites (or Banu Humayr) and those Arabian tribes not closely related to the Aribi that came into Hijaz and were considered non-Aribi. It is folk history between Arabian people that has since been anachronistically interpreted as Arabs and non- Arabs, much like the myth of Ham, Shem and Japhet, but neither of which has anything to do with people outside of Arabia.
When I personally talk of pure Arabs I myself am talking about the populations of early indigenous Arabians whether we call them Kedar, Ishmaelites (Mustarib) or Qahtanids. They trace their ancestry to the south and to the same people Adnan to Aden and Qahtan of course in the Yemen. The early Arabic historians like Tabari in fact is traced the Adnan Nizar groups to the Kudha'a branch of Himyarites.
In any case your misconceptions or ignorance about certain historical eras and lack of willingness to research and read about what other people have been commenting on is no excuse for the trolling that you've been doing. Some things are in fact not just a matter of ones personal perceptions, beliefs or wants and have been verified by in many cases by specialists. So it would be nice if you would read up on at least some of them.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: You speak of the taking of fair skinned wive/concubines. Obviously this was going among the royalty of Egypt also, there are records of transactions with Canaan and elsewhere and it accounts for a number of portraits of Egyptian women looking lighter skinned than their male counterparts and I'm not talking about mythical goddesses but real people.
Where does it say Egyptian royals were taking fair-skinned Canaanites as wives?
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: You speak of the taking of fair skinned wive/concubines. Obviously this was going among the royalty of Egypt also, there are records of transactions with Canaan and elsewhere and it accounts for a number of portraits of Egyptian women looking lighter skinned than their male counterparts and I'm not talking about mythical goddesses but real people.
Where does it say Egyptian royals were taking fair-skinned Canaanites as wives?
There is no such record I know of. There is record of Canaanite women being purchased as sex slaves, this more common than the taking of male slaves as was the case with Arab slavery.
Amenhotep III ordered forty girls from Milkilu, a Canaanite prince, paying 40 kit of silver for each:
"Behold, I have sent you Hanya, the commissioner of the archers, with merchandise in order to have beautiful concubines, i.e. weavers; silver, gold, garments, turquoises, all sorts of precious stones, chairs of ebony, as well as all good things, worth 160 deben. In total: forty concubines - the price of every concubine is forty of silver. Therefore, send very beautiful concubines without blemish."
From the Brooklyn Papyrus, we learn that Near Eastern men and women were intermingled with Egyptian servants and outnumbered them. Interestingly, they seem to have been more highly regarded then their Egyptian counterparts. This is probably due to the fact that, as prisoners of war or their descendants, they initially belonged to a social stratum superior to that of the Egyptian servants. In fact, the Egyptians of similar status probably came to be slaves due to committing some sort of unlawful act.
Undoubtedly the must have been children coming out of this. We have seen numerous portraits, not just of Gods and Goddesses, but of real people in which the women look light skinned and some have have Mesopotamian/ Semitic looking features even though the current Afrocentric theory states that there are no features which are non-African. I think it's a possibility that some of these Queens may have been result of this mingling with the concubines. I don't have proof but it seems like an obvious possibility. Some men like the exotic. That is the case now and it was probably the case in ancient times also, but in Egypt with out the racist barriers and dL of today. Another possibility is that some of these Kings came from people of the Levant who migrated into the Levant. Why is this not a possibility, it's just as close as the other border states. Look at the statues there is a variety that extends beyond just black Africans. It looks like a hodgepodge of all the peoples of the area. I don't have proof one way or the other. It's easy for you to point this out and I will admit to it. Yet we can also see that even within your criticisms you have beliefs about what you think was the proper reality of AE. But you play it safe and don't start threads so you are not as vulnerable to people poking holes in your ideas. You may claim you have no beliefs about AE but when you criticize people how you do it shows you do.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: You speak of the taking of fair skinned wive/concubines. Obviously this was going among the royalty of Egypt also, there are records of transactions with Canaan and elsewhere and it accounts for a number of portraits of Egyptian women looking lighter skinned than their male counterparts and I'm not talking about mythical goddesses but real people.
Where does it say Egyptian royals were taking fair-skinned Canaanites as wives?
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: There are many Arab and Arabian tribes with families of different complexions today. Obviously some are more Arab then they other. The Rashaida claim descent from the Banu Abs a tribe which comes from the Qays Ailan or El Nas brother of ElYas.
Of the Abs tribe an early eyewitness said " I see black-skinned men shaking their spears and digging in the earth with their feet. Quoted from El Iqd El Fareed by ibn Rabbihu of the 11th century by Tariq in the Unknown Arabs p. 78.
The Arabs of today however are not necessarily like those of early and ancient times.
Rashaida Arab girls of the horn
Rashaida Arab girl of the horn Eritrea
Rashaida man of southern Arabia
Rashaida men of Sudan
Rashaida woman from the Horn
The "black-skinned" people known as Arabs were great takers of concubines and that is how we get the varied appearance of many of the Arab tribes of today. They range from near black like their original ancestors to near white or so called "red people". The same has happened with the Berbers.
^ Wow. In the first two pics, the fair-skinned Rashaida girl and the darker one below her share the exact same features. This reminds me about the phenomenon that Yonis and other pointed out where children born to a Horn African parent and a Eurasian parent always take on the features, mainly color of the Eurasian parent. I'm not sure if you've noticed that, but I have seen my share in real life and many more pictures of it in this forum. As such, it is no surprise that in one or two generations of intermarriage these original black Arabs can end up 'white'!
Yes Djehuti - I understand this from the evolution of my own family ancestors and relatives which is why I have a problem understanding what people don't understand about the fact that such people are "mixed". I hadn't noticed, however, that the faces of the Rashaida women of different complexions looked so much alike - as if they could have come from the same family. Thanks for pointing that out. Actually, the facial features actually look rather Ethiopian i.e. to me and certainly possess the typical symmetry found among the darker skinned southern Arabian people, both women and men.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: You speak of the taking of fair skinned wive/concubines. Obviously this was going among the royalty of Egypt also, there are records of transactions with Canaan and elsewhere and it accounts for a number of portraits of Egyptian women looking lighter skinned than their male counterparts and I'm not talking about mythical goddesses but real people.
Where does it say Egyptian royals were taking fair-skinned Canaanites as wives?
Since there were no fair skinned Canaanites I'm also pretty certain that never happened. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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China has a remarkable Sinophone Muslim community, the Hui, which is at least 1300 years old and may actually go back to the time of the Prophet Muhammad (d. 632) who, according to Chinese Muslim tradition, is supposed to have sent ambassadors to China to teach Islam [Lipman 1997; EI2 s.v. al-Sin]. Numbering around nine million today, this Chinese Muslim community began as Arab (and later Persian and Central Asian) migrants (diplomats, traders, soldiers) during the T’ang dynasty (618-907) who settled, married local women and, through a long and gradual process of assimilation and acculturation, became nearly totally sinicized [Leslie, 1998; idem, 187; Israeli, 1979; Lipman, 1997].
This community of Islam is remarkable on a number of accounts: (1) While Islam arrived in China around the same time Judaism and Christianity did, these latter along with other non-indigenous religious traditions like Manichaeism failed to survive the purge of all things foreign by and during the Ming dynasty (1368-1644). Islam not only survived this purge, but prospers, a fact that continues to raises questions for researchers. (2) Chinese Islam survived and prospers despite its near-total isolation from the centers of Islamic spirituality and learning in the Middle East [Chuah, 2004]. It was not until the 18th-19th centuries that Chinese Muslim scholars had access to enough Arabic and Persian literature to develop a Muslim apologetic literature of their own and a Chinese translation of the complete Qur’an did not appear until the 19th century [Peterson, 2006]. What has sustained Islam in this sometimes hostile environment for so long?
Despite this geographical and intellectual isolation, but also because of it, Chinese annals and Hui traditions prove to be an important alternative source of information for a reconstruction of early Arabian Islam. In particular, the relevant pre-Modern Chinese sources – Muslim religious literature as well as official dynastic histories – confirm what we learn from the Western Christian (Crusader) sources and the Late Antique and Medieval Jewish sources: that the Arabs that erupted out of Arabia in the seventh century and established probably the greatest empire in the last six thousand years were black-skinned Arabs, descendents of the African Arabian (Afrabian) inhabitants of ancient Arabia [on which see Muhammad, 2011; idem, 2009]. These non-Arabic sources - non-Muslim and Muslim - challenge popular conceptions about Arabs and Islam that are mainly based on late Arabic and Persian Muslim literature and iconography. On the other hand, these sources agree with an earlier Arabic tradition wherein Arabs self-identify as black (Muhammad, 2010; Berry, 2002).
2. Muhammad: Chinese Islam’s Black Prophet
The Hui have a foundation myth that both recounts the origin of Islam in Zhong Guo, ‘the Middle Kingdom (i.e. China),’ and also seeks to provide meaning to Chinese Muslim existence as both Chinese and Muslim - heirs to a dual legacy of civilizational greatness. This popular myth, called Huihui yuanlai (‘Origins of the Hui’) circulated in several oral versions among different Chinese Muslim communities before being committed to writing sometime during the Ming. It was no doubt revised during the Qing dynasty (1644-1911).
In the Third Year of Zen Guan [Tai Zong] of the Tang Dynasty (r. 629-649), in the evening of the 18th of the third month, the Emperor in his sleep dreamed that a turbaned man came running into the palace grounds, chasing after a demon. He woke up and was puzzled by the dream, for he knew not what it foretold. On the following day he assembled all the officials of the court to discuss the matter.
The Imperial Astronomer respectfully reported to the Emperor, saying: “In the night, as I observed the appearance of the heaven, I saw a strange and evil appearance which impinged on the Tzu wei star, and I feared this might portend trouble for the Empire; I also saw in the West a felicitous light brightly manifested and encircling the Tzu wei star as a wall of protection. I opine that in the west there must be a sage who can control the threatened evil; would it not be well for your Majesty to send a messenger to enquire, in obedience to the heavenly portents?”
The Emperor then said: “At midnight I dreamed of a turbaned man and a demon which had a black face, red hair, large and prominent teeth, and was of very evil appearance generally. The man in the turban, with his hands clasped and murmuring prayers, pursued the demon closely. To look on, he (the turbaned man) indeed had a strange countenance, totally unlike ordinary men; his face was the color of black gold, his ear lobes reached his shoulders, his whiskers stood outward, his moustache and beard were cut off, short and even; he had phoenix eyebrows, a high nose and black eyes. His clothes were white and powdered, a jeweled girdle of jade encircled his loins, on his head was a plain hat, and around it a cloth turban like a coiled dragon. His presence was awe-inspiring and dreadful to behold, as might be that of a sage descending to the palace. When he entered he knelt towards the West, reading the book he held in his hand. When the demons saw him they were at once changed into their proper forms, and in distressful voices pleaded for forgiveness. But the turbaned man read on for a little, till the demons turned to blood and at last to dust, and at the sound of a voice the turbaned man disappeared. Now,” the Emperor continued, “whether this be a good or an ill omen I’m sure I don’t know.”
Thereupon the diviner of dreams reported: "The turbaned man is a Huihui (i.e. Muslim) from the Western Region, out beyond the Jiayu Pass. The kingdom of Arabia is ruled by a Muslim king of great knowledge and virtue. His land is rich and powerful. The demon entering the palace grounds surely means that there is evil lurking, which you will only be able to dispel with the help of a Huihui"…
The general reported: "The Huihui are impeccably honest in their dealings. If you meet with them peacefully, they will serve you loyally and with no care for reward. You may send an emissary to the Western Region to see the Muslim king, and request the services of an enlightened one (zhenren) to keep the portended evil at bay."
The Emperor did as was advised, and sent the senior official Shi Mingtang on a mission to present a letter to the Muslim king. [He travelled to Mecca and saw the Prophet Muhammad]. The Muslim king was delighted upon receiving the letter, and sent with the official his senior disciples (Thabit b. Qays), Uways and (Sa’d b. Abī Waqqās) to China to offer their services. Muhammad said to the official: “When you return to China take with you my portrait to give to the king of T’ang, who when he sees it, will naturally understand (about the dream)…” He then charged the official that when the portrait was given to the king of T’ang, it was clearly to be told him that no one was to worship the picture…
The Emperor received them with full honors, and asked what were the ritual and scriptural differences between his land and China. The turbaned man (Sa’d or Qays) replied that the revealed scripture of the Western Region was called the Quran, which could be likened to the Five Classics of China. He then expounded the difference between Eastern and Western ritual and teachings.
The Emperor was delighted, and so selected 3,000 T’ang soldiers to move to the Western Region, in exchange for 3,000 Muslim soldiers to accompany the turbaned elder in China. These 3,000 Muslims had countless descendants, and are the ancestors of the followers of Islam in China today. [Broomhall, 1966 [1910]: 64-67; Mason, 1929: 46-53; Lunde, 1985: 12]
The apocryphal nature of this story is fairly obvious to those familiar with Chinese history and religious literature [Israeli, 2001: 191; Garnaut, 2006; Mason, 1929: 53]. The literary use of the motif of “the Emperor’s Dream” to justify a faith newly introduced to China also appears in legendary accounts of the origin of Buddhism in China, according to which emperor Han Mingi (57-75) in 64 CE had a dream of a person from the West identified by an interpreter as Buddha. The Emperor thus sent envoys to the Indus region to find out all about the new religion [Israeli, 2001: 192, 204; Broomhall, 1966 (1910): 68; Parker, 1907: 64]. It is also the case that references to events that occurred much later can be discerned in this story, such as the eighth century rebellion of An Lushan against the Chinese emperor Xuan Zong (712-756) which brought, by his request, 3000 Muslim soldiers to China who settled there and whose descendants became a part of the nucleus of the developing Hui community. This myth is a ‘community biography,’ aimed at legitimizing Arabian Islam within a Chinese cultural and political environment [Benite, 2004: 85; Israeli, 2002: 62]. Nevertheless, there is undoubtedly a ‘grain of truth’ underneath all of the apologetic accretions [Hongxun, 1985; Sushalo, 1971: 42-43 (Dyer, 1981-1983: 563); Stratanovich, 1954: 52-66 (Dyer, 1981-1983: 563)].
One quite fascinating piece of this grain of truth is no doubt the remarkable description of the turbaned Muslim who appears in the Emperor’s dream and who turns out to be the Prophet Muhammad himself (See Endnote 1). Singularly arresting is the description of his color: black gold. What could this possibly mean and what is the source of this very eccentric Chinese description of Islam’s prophet? Black gold, one of several ‘colored golds’ used for jewelry, is gold with a black oxidide layer resulting from a cobalt component and heat treatment. As eccentric as such a description may seem vis-à-vis the popular, though late, Arabic/Persian description found in the more central Muslim lands according to which Muhammad is ruddy white, this Chinese description actually is curiously consistent with an earlier Arabic description, a description, we should add, that is more in agreement with the ethno-cultural context of Jahili and early Islamic Arabia [on which see Reynolds, 1992; Berry, 2002].
The most common description of the Prophet in Arabic sources of the ninth century, the date of the earliest extant Arabic Islamic literature, is abyad [Muhammad, 2011: 2 n. 9]. This term usually means ‘white’ in contexts not related to human complexion. In the latter context, however, by antiphrasis abyad frequently means black [Stewart, 1999: 119; Shivtiel, 1991:336]. But in Classical Arabic there are several distinct ‘blacknessess’ or ‘shades of blackness’ [al-Asyuti, 1992, II: 574; al-Tha‘labī, 2006: 81-82]. Abyad is a particular shade or ‘type’ of blackness. According to the important Syrian hadith scholar and historian of Islam, Shāms al-Dīn Abū `Abd Allāh al-Dhahabī (d. 1348),
When Arabs say, ‘so-and-so is white (abyad),’ they mean a golden brown complexion with a black appearance (al-hintī al-lawn bi-hilya sudā’). Like the complexion of the people of India, brown and black (asmar wa ādam), i.e. a clear, refined blackness (sawad al-takrūr). [al-Dhahabī, 1981, II: 168]
Abyad, the most common descriptor of Muhammad, is, like this black gold, a black complexion with a golden-brown undertone and it is a complexion free of blemish or dark patches [al-Asyuti, 1992, II: 574; Ibn Manzur, 1955-1956, IV: 209; al-Zabīdī, 1965, XVIII: 251-253]. Abyad, like the black gold analogy, also suggests a ‘black luminosity,’ viz. a black complexion that is imbued with a luminosity or glow [Muhammad, 2010a: 23-25]. This is the ideal of beauty in early Arab society [al-Zabīdī, 1965, XVIII: 251; Ibn Manzur, 1955-1956, VII: 124; Muhammad, 2011: 245; contra Badawī, 1973], and gave rise to the metaphoric use of coal (another ‘black gold’) to describe Ethiopian blackness. See e.g. the words of the epigrammatist Ascelepiades (fl. 300-270 BCE) who wrote concerning a certain Didyme:
Gazing at her beauty I melt like wax before fire. If she is black, what is that to me? So are coals, but when we burn them, they shine like fire [Anth. Pal. 5.210].
This association of ethnic blackness with coals alit is relevant here, not only because ‘black gold’ is a common metaphor for coal, but also because in Arabic coal is euphemistically called abyad [EI2 s.v. Lawn]. It should be noted here that in early Arabic society a beautiful, clear and luminous blackness was distinguished from an ‘ugly’ blackness, blemished by excessiveness due to scorching [Ibn al-Faqīh al-Hamadānī, 1996: 199; al-Dimashqī, 1923:274]. It is thus unsurprising that we find in this Hui myth the black gold complexion of the Prophet in implied contrast to the black and generally evil appearance of the demon.
There is an alternative version of this myth of the Chinese Emperor’s dream that is relevant also:
One night the Emperor Tai Zong of the Tang dynasty dreamt that a roof beam of his golden palace was collapsing. The roof beam nearly smashed his head, but it was intercepted and pushed back by the right hand of a man. The man wore a green robe, and a white turban was around his head. He had a towel draped over his should and a water kettle in his left hand. He had deep eye sockets, a high nose bridge, and a brown face. [Li and Luckert, 1994: 237; Benite, 2004: 83]
While this version of the myth continues in a way similar to the above, our attention is drawn to the description of the turbaned Muslim, Muhammad: here he is brown complexioned. This too is consistent with what we find in the Classical Arabic tradition. In two reports on the authority of the famous Companions Anas b. Mālik and ‘Abd Allāh b. ‘Abbās the Prophet is described as having a “beautiful brown-complexioned (asmar) body” [See sources in Muhammad, 2011: 20]. Asmar is a color term denoting a dark brown, short of black [Borg, 1999: 129; Stewart, 1999: 111-112; Vollers, 1910: 88]. Thus, the two descriptions of the Arabian prophet that feature in the central and most wide-spread myth of Chinese Islam – indeed the defining myth – precisely correspond to the two descriptions we meet with in the early Arabic literature. But this general description of Muhammad as a very dark-skinned Arab more or less completely disappears from the Arabic literature of a later period and is replaced by what will become the orthodox and popular description of Muhammad: abyad musrab bi-humra, ruddy white-skinned [see Muhammad 2011:25-28]. Being that the black-skinned Muhammad completely disappears from the Arabic Islamic tradition and is almost totally forgotten, and that the ruddy-white Muhammad becomes universally recognized throughout Muslim and non-Muslim literature and iconography, how is it that Chinese Islam clung to this black-skinned Arab Muhammad for so long?
The Chinese myth is difficult to date, but a printed version of it was probably in circulation in the late Ming period (ca. 1622), certainly by the early Qing [Leslie, Daye and Youssef, 2006: 144; Leslie, 1981: 55; Garnaut, 2006; Benite, 2004: 84]. However, as Anthony Garnaut reminds us, legends such as this are the material of oral literature, and the earliest written accounts represent only the endpoint of a long process of oral narrative development [Garnaut, 2006]. Therefore, though the narrative as we currently find it is apocryphal and its historical context is late [Ma, 2006], it certainly incorporates ancient Muslim tradition. This Old Arabic description of Muhammad as a dark-skinned Arab is no doubt a part of the ancient Muslim tradition that was brought to China early. Because Chinese Islam was, despite some sporadic intercourse, intellectually isolated from the main centers of Islam, it seems to have been minimally impacted by the major intellectual, culturally, and demographic shifts that occurred in the Muslim heartlands following the misnomered ‘Abassid Revolution of the eighth century. These shifts I have generally called the Aryanizing of Islam, because Persian (Aryan) converts were the main shapers of Islamic tradition following the Revolution. Newly introduced into Islam, among other things, was a virulent anti-black, anti-Arab sentiment which ultimately ‘de-Arabized’ Muhammad by transfiguring him into a ruddy-white Persian [Muhammad, 2011; idem, 2010]. This Aryanizing process seems to have had minimal impact on Chinese Islam at the time this myth of the Emperor’s Dream was canonized and popularized.
3. Sa’d b. Abī Waqqās: Chinese Islam’s Black Saint
On the Dingzhou Mosque, the oldest mosque in China located in Dingzhou city, Hebei Province (in eastern China), there is a stele commemorating the rebuilding of the mosque in 1348 during the Yuan dynasty (1206-1368). The stele mentions briefly: “In the Kaihuang reign (581-600) of the Sui, our Companion Sa’d Waqqas (Sa Ha Bo Sa Ha Di Wo Ge Si) first brought the teaching to China.” The is the oldest documented reference to the canonical Hui legend according to which the maternal uncle of the prophet Muhammad, Sa’d b. Abī Waqqās (d. 664), the conqueror of Persia and founder of Kufa, came to China on instructions from the Prophet and introduced Islam there [See Ma, 2006]. There is a tomb built in his honor in Guangzhou in southeastern China, where Arab and Persian maritime merchants formed communities as far back as the Tang dynasty (618-907). This account of Chinese Islam’s origin is also found in official records, such as the Ming dynasty’s official history Ming Shi, which was commenced in 1370 and published in 1461. There it is stated: “Sahib Sa’d Waqqas came to China in the years of K’ai Huang of the Sui Dynasty (i.e. between 581-600).”
Nevertheless, most scholars reject this claim as completely legendary [e.g. Broomhall, 1966 (1910): 77-79; Mason, 1922: 3; EI2 s.v. al-Sin; Jun-yan, 1980: 95]. The main reasons, other than the relatively late documentation, are two: (1) the impossible dates offered in the various versions of the narrative (e.g. Muhammad's date is off by decades) and (2) the lack of Arabic documentation of a trip by Sa’d to China, coupled with the standard Muslim tradition that he died in al-Aqīq and was buried in Medina [EI2 s.v. Sa’d b. Abī Wakkās]. The latter argument is unpersuasive. The assumption by Western scholars that Sa’d “never came to China” is baseless. While such an embassy is not mentioned in the extent Arabic historical sources, these have lacunae as it relates to Sa’d. His activities between 648 and 653 are unrecorded, and it is precisely during this period (i.e. 650) that this embassy likely happened (see below), though obviously not on the instruction of Muhammad who had been dead for several years by then [Pickens, 1942: 203].
Nor is the chronological problem insurmountable. Errors, chronological and otherwise, as it relates to the rise of Islam are certainly found in the dynastic annals and should not surprise us [Wakeman, 1990: 409-411, n. 176]. In addition, the date most commonly offered in the Hui sources for this embassy, 628, is likely wrong on the surface, but it also probably has an accurate date underneath it. Scholars now know that the conversion of Muslim lunar dates to the Chinese luni-solar calendar introduced a twenty-one/two year error into the Chinese retelling of Islamic history. When corrected for this error, the Chinese Muslim date of the embassy, 628, becomes 649-650 and agrees precisely with the date we get from the official annals for such an embassy (Leslie, 1998: 11 and below). Hui tradition and Chinese official records thus agree, suggesting that they “have a foundation in fact” [Pickens, 1942: 208; Drake, 1943: 23; Hongxun, 1985]. Even though the Hui tradition undoubtedly has legendary accretions, the basic claim that Islam first came to China in the seventh century with an Arab embassy (that included Sa’d) has nothing militating against it [Lipman, 1997: 25; Leslie, 1998: 3].
According to Hui tradition, Sa’d and another Arab ambassador, Thabit b. al-Qays, are among the forefathers of the Hui. Their alleged tombs in Guangzhou and Hami, Xinjiang are holy centers to which distressed Believers travel seeking blessings and praying for protection [Garnaut, 2006; Hongxun, 1985; Gladney, 1987: 497-500]. These saints of Chinese Islam are black Arabs. Sa’d b. Abī Waqqās, cousin of the prophet’s mother, Amīna bt. Wahb and uncle of Muhammad, was from the Banū Zuhra and was thus described as black-skinned (ādam), flat-nosed and tall [al-Dhahabī, 1981, I:97; Berry, 2002:71-72]. Thabit b. al-Qays was chieftain of Banū Khazraj, a notoriously black tribe [see Muhammad, 2011: 16-17; idem, 2009: 178-180; Berry, 2002: 68-69]. He was the first of Yathrib to swear allegiance to Muhammad. These two famous black Arabs are considered the forefathers of Islam in China and are among Chinese Islam’s most holy figures, Sa’d certainly the holiest, second only to Muhammad.
4. The Black Arabs in Official Chinese Records
China had contacts with Western Asia as early as the pre-Imperial Period, before the second century B.C.E. Envoys of the Han dynasty (206 B.C.E. – 220 C.E.) with caravan reached Arabia ca. 206 B.C.E. As late as the fifth century C.E. during the Liu-Sung dynasty (420-479 C.E.) Chinese trading ships had anchored in the Gulf and traded with Arabs. Formal relations with Arabia, however, began only with the T’ang dynasty (618 -907 C.E.), which was contemporary with the rise and zenith of Arabian/Islamic power [Baojun, 2001: 80; Jun-yan, 1980: 91; Bretschneider, 1929; idem, 1871].
In 638 Yazdigird III, grandson of Chosroes and Sasānian ruler of Persia, sent an embassy to China appealing to the T’ang emperor, T’ai-tsung, for assistance against the Arabs who had invaded his realm. Yazdigird's son and the last Sasānian ruler, Fīrūz, made a similar appeal in 650. This is not surprising. Chinese-Persian relations were quite intimate before the rise of the Muslim Arabs. Over thirty Persian embassies from 455 to 651 are noted in Chinese sources and trade and diplomacy flourished between the two countries. Persian (Mazdean) temples were established in China and the relatively accurate accounts in official Chinese sources of pre-Islamic Persian customs and religion suggest that real communication was taking place [Leslie, 1998: 3-4]. Fīrūz’s appeal for assistance was made while he, his son, and thousands of his followers were given asylum in China. The T’ang emperor declined to offer military assistance, however, but did send an embassy to the Caliph Uthman to plead the case of his Persian ally. In return, Uthman sent an embassy to China in 650 bearing tribute.
This was the beginning of formal relations between the Islamic and the T’ang dynasty. Between 650 and 798 the Muslims will send thirty-nine formal embassies to China [Jun-yan, 1980: 93]. Official Chinese records document these embassies, though the Arabic historical tradition makes little mention of them. This latter circumstance, no doubt a consequence of the above mentioned lacunae which characterizes the Arabic tradition, makes the Chinese sources that much more valuable [Gibb, 1923]. While the Chinese records possess gaps of their own and are prone to the occasional error, some of them are contemporary with the events they record and in general show a good awareness of the major events in the Muslim world through the reign of the ‘Abbāsid caliph Hārūn al-Rashīd (786-809). These sources show Chinese awareness of: the rise of Muhammad (though the account is garbled); the Arab/Muslim conquests and the rise of the caliphate; some caliphal ceremonial; Mu’awīya, the first Umayyad caliph, and his unsuccessful siege of Constantinople; the Quraysh tribe and its political division between the Banū Marwān (i.e. the Umayyads) and the Banū Hāshim (i.e. the ‘Abbāsids), and the latter’s overthrow of the former. These sources also demonstrate accurate Chinese awareness of Arab Muslim ethnicity.
The oldest relevant T’ang source at our disposal is the T’ung Tien, an encyclopedic administrative tract written by the T’ang official Tu yu (d. 812). After 36 years Tu yu completed the work and presented it to the throne in 801. As a high official Tu yu would have had access to governmental archives. He also used as a source the first-hand account of his nephew, Tu Huan. Tu Huan was taken prisoner after Arab and Chinese forces clashed at the Battle of Talas in 751. He was incarcerated in Iraq until 762, when he was allowed to return to China. Tu Huan made a record of his observations of the Muslims during his incarceration, and this record was utilized by Tu yu. One portion of the T’ung Tien is a section dealing with the ‘western barbarians (His jung),’ a history of China’s relations with the peoples on its western frontier: Central Asia, Northern India, Sassānian Iran, Tibet, the Roman Orient, Arabia [Wakeman, 1990]. Arabia, called Ta-shi, is described in the last section, which reads in part:
During the Yung-Hui period (650-651) of the Great T’ang dynasty, the Arabs (Ta-shi) dispatched missions to China. Their country is said to be located to the west of Persia or alternatively, it was said that they were originally Persian Hu who, apparently with [a spirit’s aid], obtained swords and killed…the men of the country have large noses. They are slender in shape and dark brown in color. They have heavy beards and whiskers, like the Indians. Their women are graceful and pretty [trans. Behbehani, 1989: 99, modified with Wakeman, 1990: 892-904].
This is likely the earliest extent reference to the embassy of 650. Some comment on this text is in order. Prior to the rise of the caliphate the Chinese considered Arabia a part of Persia. This is no doubt the context of the “alternative” account that the Arabians were originally Persian (clients), before their rise to independent power and their extinguishing of Sassānian Persia [Broomhall, 1910: 8; Drake, 1943: 23]. But the Chinese sources distinguished between ethnic Arabs, called Ta-shi, and ethnic Persians, called Bosi [Leslie, 1998: 11]. This nomenclature is significant. As is frequently noted, the Chinese double-character term for the Arabs, Ta-shi, doubtlessly derives from the Persian Tā-zī. The latter is the Persianized form of the Syriac tayyāyē, which properly means “Arab of the tribe of Tayyi’”[EI2 s.v. al-Sin; Behbehani, 1989: 93]. The Banū Tayyi’ were a southern Arabian tribe that migrated north and who became one of the most prominent tribes in pre-Islamic Arabian history [EI2 s.v. Tayyi’]. It had important relations with Persia and its clients, the Lakhmids of Iraq. They were so prominent in Pre-Islamic Arabia, in fact, that their specific name became the general term for ‘Arab.’ Sogdian Persians regarded the Tayyi’ as representative of the Arabs in general and thus designated the latter Tā-zī. The significance of this point can be fully appreciated only when we consider the following observation by Arabian ethnographer Dana Marniche: “These Yemenite tribes of Tayyi and his brother Madhj were notoriously black and the early Arabic writings make clear that they also held fair-skin in derision or low regard [Marniche, n.d.].” It is thus unsurprising that Ta-shi or Arabs encountered by and known to the Chinese are described as “dark brown in color.”
This embassy of dark brown Arabs that visited the Chinese court in 650 likely included Sa’d b. Abī Waqqās, the dark-brown or black-skinned uncle of the prophet Muhammad [Pickens, 1942: 210-211]. Note also that this description of the Arab as dark brown in color with an high nose and whiskers agrees with the description of Muhammad himself as recorded in Chinese Muslim tradition [above].
The second Chinese source treating the Arabs as encountered during the T’ang is the official T’ang History (T’ang Shu). In 941 the Chin emperor Kao-tsu ordered the production of a full-scale dynastic history of the T’ang. This work, the Chiu T’ang shu (Old T’ang History), was completed by the chief minister and director of National History, Liu Hsü, in 945 and presented to the new emperor Shao-ti. A century later an imperial decree went out for a revised version: the Hsin T’ang shu (New T’ang History) was presented to the throne in 1060. The description of Ta-shi (Arabia) and its inhabitants is not much different from what we encounter in the T’ung Tien. The Hsin T’ang shu records:
Ta-shi was originally part of Persia. The men have high noses, are black, and bearded. The woman are very fair and when they go out they veil the face. Five times daily they worship God. They wear silver girdles, with silver knives suspended. They do not drink wine, nor use music [trans. Mason, 1929: 68-69; cf. Behbehani, 1989: 93].
Here again we find the Arabs described as black-skinned with high noses.
This consistent presentation in official Chinese sources of ethnic Arabs as black-skinned is not unexpected, as Chinese contact with black Arabs continued after the beginning of the Aryanization of the Islamic world, including Arab ethnicity [on which see Muhammad, 2010: 22-27]. After the misnomered ‘Abbasid revolution of 749-750 ended Islam’s ‘Black Dynasty,’ the Umayyad dynasty [see Muhammad, 2009: 202-204], and catalyzed the Aryanization process which would result in the establishment of the de-Arabized ‘Abbasid caliphate, some surviving Umayyad’s (the Umayyads were slaughtered after the success of the revolution) showed up in 760 at the court of the Chinese emperor Su Zong, who entertained them [Jun-yan, 1980: 93]. There is also a report that earlier some descendents of Ali (ahl al-bayt) had fled Umayyad persecution to China [Broomhall, 1910: 20]. Ahl al-Bayt, the descendents of Ali, were in the main black-skinned [Berry, 2002: 62-65; Muhammad, 2011: 11-14]. A Qurayshi Arab and descendant of Muhammad, Ibn Wahhab, reportedly travelled to China in 870 and sought an audience with the emperor. He let it be known at the Chinese court that he was ahl al-bayt, ‘family of the [Prophet’s] house’. Only after the emperor ordered an inquiry into Ibn Wahhab’s familial claims and these were confirmed did he meet with the Arab visitor [Israeli, 2000: 317-318; Mason, 1929: 70-75].
6. Conclusion
The pre-modern Chinese records on the Arab Muslims as well as the religious traditions and memory of China’s peculiar Sino-Muslim community confirm what recent researchers like myself, Marniche, Berry and a few others have been documenting: the Arabs who spread Islam from the East to the West were black-skinned Arabs. The Prophet Muhammad was no exception. This black-skinned Arab Muhammad all but disappears in the Arabic/Persian Muslim literature, replaced there with a ruddy-white Persian Muhammad. Not only do hostile Christian sources preserve the black Muhammad, however [see Muhammad, 2011: 1-2; idem, 2010:1-6]; the Chinese Muslims sources do as well. These pre-modern Chinese sources therefore make an immeasurable contribution to our efforts to reconstruct the ‘Old’ Arab Islam, the Islam of the ummah prior to the Aryanization processes that resulted in the very racist, misogynist, white supremacist Islam of most of the modern Muslim world.
Endnotes
In one version of the Huihui yuan lai it is explicitly stated: “…the T’ang Emperor was greatly pleased to see the portrait of Muhammad, who was the very man he had seen in his dream. He said, ‘This is the very person I saw in my dream…” [Li and Luckert, 1994: 247]. In the Dungan version, it says also: “The Great Sovereign of the Middle Kingdon (i.e. the T’ang Emperor) saw in his dream his worst enemy, the monster, and his friend, the turban-wearer, who is the Prophet of the West, the Ma hui-hui [Muhammad].” [Dyer, 1981-1983: 555].
Abbreviations and References
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Bretschneider, E. (1929) “Chinese Mediaeval Notices of Islam,” Muslim World 19: 53-61.
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Dyer, Svetlana Rimsky-Korsakoff. (1981-1983) “T’ang T’ai-Tung’s Dream: A Soviet Dungan Version of a Legend on the Origin of the Chinese Muslims,” Monumenta Serica 35:545-70.
EI2= The Encyclopedia of Islam, New Edition, ed. J. H. Kramers, H. A. R. Gibb and E. Levi-Provençal (Leiden: Brill, 1954-)
idem. V.2: 698-707 s.v. Lawn by A. Morabia.
idem. XIII: 696-697 s.v. Sa’d b. Abī Wakkās by G.R. Hawting.
idem. IX: 616-625 s.v. Al-Sīn by C. E. Bosworth, M. Hartmann –[C. E. Bosworth], and R. Israeli.
idem. X: 402-403 s.v. Tayyi’ by Irfan Shahid.
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Vollers, K. (1910) “Über Rassenfarben in der arabischen Literatur,” Centenario della nascita di Michele Amari 1: 84-95.
Wakeman, Charles Bunnel. (1990) “Hsi Jung (the Western Barbarians): an Annotated Translation of the five chapters of the T’ung Tien on the Peoples and Countries of Pre-Islamic Central Asia,” PhD. Thesis, University of California; Los Angeles, 1990.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: You speak of the taking of fair skinned wive/concubines. Obviously this was going among the royalty of Egypt also, there are records of transactions with Canaan and elsewhere and it accounts for a number of portraits of Egyptian women looking lighter skinned than their male counterparts and I'm not talking about mythical goddesses but real people.
Where does it say Egyptian royals were taking fair-skinned Canaanites as wives?
There is no such record I know of.
Thank you.
Lyinass has developed her own brand of "Egyptology" and science in general, it's rooted in the art of "Making things up as they go along", an oxymoron to say the least...
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by AGÜEYBANÁ(Mind718): Lyinass has developed her own brand of "Egyptology" and science in general, it's rooted in the art of "Making things up as they go along", an oxymoron to say the least... [/QB]
the following is not made up:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
Amenhotep III ordered forty girls from Milkilu, a Canaanite prince, paying 40 kit of silver for each:
"Behold, I have sent you Hanya, the commissioner of the archers, with merchandise in order to have beautiful concubines, i.e. weavers; silver, gold, garments, turquoises, all sorts of precious stones, chairs of ebony, as well as all good things, worth 160 deben. In total: forty concubines - the price of every concubine is forty of silver. Therefore, send very beautiful concubines without blemish."
this is also not made up:
Limestone Statue of Katep and Hetepheres - Egypt, 2300 bce (priest and his wife)
^^^^this as we know is not uncommon, a relatively dark skinned man in a portrait with his light skinned partner. They were real people so you can't attribute her lighter color to symbolism. When a lighter female is observed in pictures of the Gods, the female is much yellower, not to indicate lighter skin but to indicate golden skin of the Gods. That is not the case here.
Here is a husband and wife from Sudan:
Notice how they are both the same color, the woman is not lighter.
Now explain to me why in the Statue of Katep and Hetepheres and many other similar statues and painting, I'm not speaking of painting of the Gods, I'm speaking of portraits of real people why is the woman depicted lighter? Simple she was lighter. I didn't say Caucasian I said lighter. Obviously there was some sort of preference going on for lighter woman by some of these government officials. Where did these much lighter woman come from? It's possible some of them came form the Mid-East.
Posts: 43199 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Dear friends who love the Egyptian art and culture. I apologize for the confusion and the conversion of this topic into a battlefield. I wonder why not open their own topic there to solve their differences, to swear to cry etc. Back to our own. I do not think it is fake because it belongs to our family collection since 1890. On 1890 fakes statuettes? difficult! We conclude that probably should be the Akhetanem? What kind of stone do you think is; Red granite, what? Thank you all for your cooperations. MAKE PIECE NOT WAR!! P.S.Liones you are etractive in troubles.I have reed you in some other topic;the same war?
Posts: 18 | From: GREECE | Registered: Jul 2011
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What mystifies me is why people whose ancestors come exclusively from region A should be so endlessly obsessed with the colour of historical peoples from region B. What earthly difference does it make given that there was no historical migration from region B to region A? Even if there was the theoretical migrants would probably have become blacker en route due to mixing with locals so it doesn't matter what colour they were to start with! Posts: 870 | From: uk | Registered: Apr 2011
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quote:Originally posted by AGÜEYBANÁ(Mind718): (Insults, lies and calumny)...
the following is not made up:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
Amenhotep III ordered forty girls from Milkilu, a Canaanite prince, paying 40 kit of silver for each:
"Behold, I have sent you Hanya, the commissioner of the archers, with merchandise in order to have beautiful concubines, i.e. weavers; silver, gold, garments, turquoises, all sorts of precious stones, chairs of ebony, as well as all good things, worth 160 deben. In total: forty concubines - the price of every concubine is forty of silver. Therefore, send very beautiful concubines without blemish."
this is also not made up:
Limestone Statue of Katep and Hetepheres - Egypt, 2300 bce (priest and his wife)
^^^^this as we know is not uncommon, a relatively dark skinned man in a portrait with his light skinned partner. They were real people so you can't attribute her lighter color to symbolism. When a lighter female is observed in pictures of the Gods, the female is much yellower, not to indicate lighter skin but to indicate golden skin of the Gods. That is not the case here.
Here is a husband and wife from Sudan:
Notice how they are both the same color, the woman is not lighter.
Now explain to me why in the Statue of Katep and Hetepheres and many other similar statues and painting, I'm not speaking of painting of the Gods, I'm speaking of portraits of real people why is the woman depicted lighter? Simple she was lighter. I didn't say Caucasian I said lighter. Obviously there was some sort of preference going on for lighter woman by some of these government officials. Where did these much lighter woman come from? It's possible some of them came form the Mid-East. [/QB]
Lioness is mostly correct, although I don't agree that the lighter coloured women are necessarily foreigners. When you get images of children, the dauhters are light like their mothers, the sons dark like their fathers. This was clearly an artiastic convention, with some basis in reality.
There is still a tendency among Egyptians for the women to look lighter than the men...
Such images as the statue above are not symbolic but are reasonably accurate. Egyptians could draw black women when the need arose: Posts: 870 | From: uk | Registered: Apr 2011
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^ LOL The same pathetically desperate strawman argument comparing modern ebony black Sudanese in real life to ancient Egyptian depictions where the woman was SYMBOLICALLY colored yellow as all Egyptologists acknowledge. Realistically the women would have been the same complexion or close to it as men. Pictures of Modern Egyptians where fair-skinned women are preferred including women who use skin bleaching creams definitely do NOT represent ancient custom.
Funny how you use Katep and his wife Hetepheres as an example of "cauasians".
^ As you can see there is nothing "caucasian" about their features unless you believe "caucasians" can vary but not "negroes". LOL
Also the color of Katep himself is no different from his Old Kingdom contemporaries.
^ All skin tones found among black Africans.
quote:Originally posted by Dahoslips 101: What mystifies me is why people whose ancestors come exclusively from region A should be so endlessly obsessed with the colour of historical peoples from region B. What earthly difference does it make given that there was no historical migration from region B to region A? Even if there was the theoretical migrants would probably have become blacker en route due to mixing with locals so it doesn't matter what colour they were to start with!
I could say the same about YOU and YOUR people of Britain and your obsession with Greece!
Has it not occurred to you that both Guinea West Africa and the Nile Valley are in Africa. They are separated by thousands of miles yet that does not negate shared African ancestry or cross migrations across the Saharan region before it was desert nincompoop!!
Posts: 26613 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: LOL The same pathetically desperate strawman argument comparing modern ebony black Sudanese in real life to ancient Egyptian depictions where the woman was SYMBOLICALLY colored yellow as all Egyptologists acknowledge. Realistically the women would have been the same complexion or close to it as men. Pictures of Modern Egyptians where fair-skinned women are preferred including women who use skin bleaching creams definitely do NOT represent ancient custom.
Funny how you use Katep and his wife Hetepheres as an example of "cauasians".
Hey smartass, first explain what yellow skin symbolizes, with sources.
Then explain why in the skin color in the statues above the women do not have yellow skin
but rather much closer to this sand color:
Now explain the symbolism of Gods and Goddesses sometimes being portrayed looking yellow
quote: What mystifies me is why people whose ancestors come exclusively from region A should be so endlessly obsessed with the colour of historical peoples from region B.
I accidently saw this race loon troll post when I skimmed over Djehuti's aka ping pong pepe's post.
A scholarly beatdown will now be administered to this rahotep101 creature.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
http://news.yahoo.com/yemen-vp-presents-transition-plan-saleh-stays-130958035.html Yemen's Saleh appears on TV, offers to share power SANAA/ADEN (Reuters) - Yemen's President Ali Abdullah Saleh appeared on television on Thursday for the first time since an assassination attempt a month ago and said he was ready to share power within the constitution's framework.
Just slipping that in there killing two birds with one stone.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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It is the case that the empire of Islam entered Africa with the sword. Black imperialism from all eras, including ancient Kemetic imperialism, relies on military advancement. It is not the case, however, that the religion of Islam spread at the same time and by the same means. In fact, the African Arabian Muslims saw Islam as exclusive to themselves and refused to proselytize at all [See Muhammad, 2009: 202-204]. The religion did not begin spreading in Africa until centuries after the Muslim conquest, and when it did it was carried by merchants and religious specialists, not soldiers. Too many scholars, black and white, have debunked the myth of the Arabs violently imposing Islam on Africans for it to still have circulation, though in some circles it still does. Cheikh Anta Diop, in his Pre-Colonial Black Africa, affirms:
Much has been made of Arab invasions of Africa: they occurred in the North, but in Black Africa they are figments of the imagination. While the Arabs did conquer North Africa by force of Arms, they quite peaceably entered Black AfricaFrom the time of the Umayyad setbacks in the eighth century, no Arab army ever crossed the Sahara in an attempt to conquer Africa, except for the Moroccan War of the sixteenth centuryNor was there ever any Arab conquest of Mozambique or any other East African territory. The Arabs in these areas, who became great religious leaders, arrived as everywhere else individually and settled in peacefullyThe Arab conquests dear to sociologists are necessary to their theories but did not exist in reality.
Only during the Almoravide movement of the first half of the eleventh century did some white people, Berbers,784 attempt to impose Islam on Black Africa by force of armsThe primary reason for the success of Islam in Black Africa, with one exception, consequently stems from the fact that it was propagated peacefully at first by solitary Arabo-Berber travelers to certain Black kings and notables, who then spread it about them to those under their jurisdiction"[Diop, 1987: 101-102, 162, 163].
Joseph E. Harris in his Africans and Their History says as well: "it is noteworthy that except for the northern coast, Islam spread rather peacefully until the eighteenth century, with one significant interruption-the Almoravid conquests"[Harris, 1987: 74]. J. Spencer Trimingham, in A History of Islam in West Africa, agrees:
The role of the Murabitun (Almoravids) in the Islamization of the Sudan has been exaggerated. The peaceful penetration of Islam along trade routes into borderland towns had begun before this movement was bornThe Murabitun simply accelerated a process that had already begun, and their conquest was ephemeral because the attraction of Morocco was stronger than that of the Sudan (emphasis mine-WM)” [Trimingham, 1970: 29-31].
I. Hrbek and M. El Fasi note:
During the great Arab conquests, there was certainly no attempt to convert the ahl al-kitāb (Jews and Christians) by forcegenerations of scholars haveclearly demonstrated that the image of the Muslim Arab warrior with sword in one hand and the Qoran in the other, belongs to the realm of mythology.[ Hrbek and El Fasi, 1992: 31]
Z. Dramani-Issifou: "Prior to the twelfth century, Islam advanced on African soil without wars, without violent proselytism [Dramani-Issifou, 1992: 54].” And finally Sylviane Anna Diouf notes:
In contrast to its arrival in North Africa, where it had been brought by the invading Arabs, the spread of Islam in sub-Saharan Africa followed a mostly peaceful and unobtrusive path. Religious wars or jihad, came late-in the eighteenth and especially in the nineteenth century-and Islam was diffused not by outsiders…but by indigenousness traders, clerics, and rulers…Some fundamental features of traditional religions and customs, such as ritual immolation of animals, circumcision, polygamy, communal prayers, divination, and amulet making, also were present in Islam. Such affinities facilitated conversion as well as accommodation and tolerance of others’ rituals and beliefs. Africans themselves considered Islam an African religion. [Diouf, 1998, 4].
It is thus inaccurate to claim that the religion of Islam spread throughout Africa at the end of and by means of the Arabian sword. It is the case that there are some exceptions to this, but in general the religion established itself on the continent rather peacefully. And while the empire of Islam did indeed establish itself in North Africa by means of the sword, this was in the main neither a non-African nor an anti-African conquest.
2. The Conquest of Egypt
The Prophet Muhammad had told one of his companions and military generals, “When you conquer Egypt, be kind to its Copts because you have a covenant of protection and kinship (rahim/rihm) with them.” This recipient of this instruction, the Arab general ‘Amr b. al-‘As (d. 664), will later lead the conquest of Egypt. This acknowledgment by Muhammad that the Arabs and the indigenous African population of Egypt (the Copts) were kith and kin is consistent with the archaeological and ethnographic evidence indicating the same: that the indigenous populations of Arabia and Northern and Eastern Africa were culturally and ethnically related [Muhammad, 2011: 8 n. 38, 9 n. 45; idem, 2009: 1-7]. Nor did ‘Amr and the African Arabian conquerors of Egypt disregard Muhammad’s command regarding treatment of the Copts.
The conquest of Egypt by the Arab Muslims in 641 was in the main carried out by black-skinned Arabs. The historical and the genetic evidence indicates that “tribes of Yemeni origin formed the bulk of those Muslim contingents that conquered Egypt in the middle of the 7th century CE [Nebel et al, 2002: 1595; Diop, 1967: 52].” What do we know about these “Yemeni tribes,” i.e. South Arabian Arabs? Major-General Maitland, Political Resident in Aden for Britain, noted in 1932 that “All authorities agree that the southern Arabs are nearly related by origin to the Abyssinians” [Bury, 1998: xiii]. The South Arabian has been somatically or culturally identified with the dark skinned Toda and Dravidian of India, the Vedda of Ceylon, and the Ethiopian and Somalian “Hamites” of East Africa. Thus Carleton Coon observed in his, The Races of Europe:
It’s easy enough to account for the southern Arabian Bedawi of the course type. He is obviously related to the Veddas of Ceylon, and to the most important element in the Dravidian-speaking population of India. His hair form, his facial features, his pigmentation, and his general size and proportions confirm this relationship”[Coon, 1939: 429].
It was this dark-skinned, Africoid/Dravidoid Arabian who formed the bulk of the troops who conquered Egypt, not the Europoid Arab that graces the cover of Chancellor Williams’ iconic text, The Destruction of Black Civilization. Nor were the black-skinned troops led by white-skinned Arab commanders. The second caliph who authorized the conquest was ‘Umar b. al-Khattāb (d. 644), the chief architect of the Islamic state. ‘Umar was a Qurayshi Arab from the Banū Adi. His mother Hantama bt. Hāshim b. al-Mughīra, was from the exceptionally black Banū al-Mughīra. Al-Mas'ūdī (Prairies, IV, 192) says she was Black. His paternal grandmother was an enslaved Ethiopian. He was certainly no "fair, pale man, with a touch of redness [contra Abu-Bakr, 1993:32]. He was specifically described as a bald, black-skinned man (rajul ādam). His famous son, ‘Abd Allāh, was himself "very dark-skinned and huge" and said regarding their blackness: "We inherited our black complexion from our maternal uncles." [See sources in Muhammad, 2011: 15; Berry, 2002: 67].
Leading the troops into Egypt was the Arab general ‘Amr b. al-‘As who had previously commanded the Muslim forces in southern Palestine. He too had an Ethiopian mother and Qurashi father and was specifically described as “black-skinned, tall and bald, asmar shadīd al-sumra tawīil asla” [Berry, 2010]. ‘Amr was sent 4000 reinforcements divided into four detachments of 1000, each led by one of four commanders: al-Miqdād b. al-Aswad, who was black-skinned (ādam) and tall; the black (aswad) and tall Muhammad b. Maslama, an Arab from the Banū Aws; al-Zubayr b. al-Awwan, the cousin of the Prophet and nephew of Khadījah, who was dark brown-skinned (asmar al-lawn); and the famously black (aswad) ‘Ubāda b. al-Sāmit (d. 654) [See sources in Muhammad, 2011: 16].
A famous incident involving ‘Ubāda b. al-Sāmit illustrates the overall complexion of the Muslim conquest of Egypt. When Cyrus, the Byzantine governor of Egypt, sought negotiations with ‘Amr in October 640, the latter deputed ten of his officers to negotiate. They were led by ‘Ubāda. When the tall and black ‘Ubāda was ushered into Cyrus’ presence, the governor was terrified and exclaimed: “Take away that black man: I can have no discussion with him!” The party insisted that ‘Ubāda was the wisest, best, and noblest among them and their appointed leader, declaring that “though he is black he is the foremost among us in position, in precedence, in intelligence and in wisdom, for blackness is not despised among us.” ‘Ubāda himself then replied to Cyrus: “There are a thousand blacks, as black as myself, among our companions. I and they would be ready each to meet and fight a hundred enemies together.” Benard Lewis makes an important observation here: “‘Ubāda is not African nor even of African descent but (as the chroniclers are careful to point out) a pure and noble Arab on both sides”[Lewis, 1990: 26]. ‘Ubāda was an eminent Ansārī from the tribe Awf b. al-Khazraj, in particular the clan Banu Ghanm b. Awf b. al-Khazraj, thus a pure, very black-skinned Arab. The thousand fellow blacks, possibly the detachment of which he was commander, were no doubt black Arabs like him.
The conquest of Egypt by the Muslims in 641 was thus a Black Op from top to bottom. The mainly southern Arab troops, ethnically Africoid/Dravidoid, were led by similarly black-skinned Arab commanders, all under the caliphal leadership of the black-skinned Umar. The phenomenon of one Black nation conquering another did not begin with these African Arabian Muslims. In 340 CE Axum’s ruler invaded and claimed Himyar, Raydan and Saba in South Arabia, ruling there from 340-378. The Axumites were kicked out by native Himyarites. However, Axum still claimed rulership over Himyar and Saba for another two centuries. In 523 Dhu’l Nuwas, a Himyarite Jewish ruler who was bitter over the Axumite rule and pretensions to rule, massacred some Arab Christians in Najran. The Byzantine emperor Justin I prompted the Negus of Abyssinia to assert his claims over the region. The Negus sent 70, 000 men across Red Sea who were victorious in reconquering southern Arabia. As Philip Hitti notes: “The Abyssianians came as helpers, but as often happens remained as conquers. They turned colonists and remained from 525 to 575 in control of the land” [Hitti, Arabs, 62]. In other words, the African-Arabian conquest of African Egypt followed an Ethiopian conquest of southern Arabia.
Nevertheless, the conquest of Egypt should not be seen as an example of ancient black-on-black violence. On the contrary, the target of the African Arabian Muslim aggression was the oppressive Byzantine rulers of Egypt. As W.E.B. Du Bois affirmed: “the Arabs invaded African Egypt, taking it from Eastern Roman Emperors and securing as allies the native Negroid Egyptians [Du Bois, 1979: 185-86]. As Mamadou Chinyelu put it as well: "These African Copts no doubt saw the African Muslims from Arabia as liberators; after all they were kith and kin” [Chinyelu, 1991: 367]. This overthrowing of ‘white power’ in Africa was just leg of a larger campaign. Umar’s African-Arabian troops "broke the power of the Persian Sassanid empire and proceeded to annex Iran and Iraq to Arabia." He further brought Syria, Phoenicia, Persia, Jerusalem, and Egypt into the Dār al-Islām, out of the hands of the Byzantines. With the destruction of Carthage in the third Punic War (150-146 BCE) Rome became the supreme power in North Africa. It was ‘Umar and the black-skinned Muslim troops that broke up this White power block in Africa. Thus, Diop’s keen observation: “Except for the Islamic breakthrough, Europe has ruled Africa down to the present day” [Diop, 1967:119]. It was African Arabian Muslims who relived Africa of European rule for a brief period.
3. Relations of Black Muslims in Egypt and Black Christians in Egypt and Nubia
Having secured Egypt in 641-642, the Muslims attempted to take Nubia in 643. These excursions are given special treatment in Chancellor Williams classic work, The Destruction of Black Civilization [1987]. The main weaknesses of Williams discussion of the Muslim invasion of Egypt in 641 and attempted invasions of Nubia in 643 and again in 651-52 is his inaccurate ethnographic assignments. Williams saw the Muslim/Nubian conflict as one between White Arabs and Black Nubians: the Arab conquerors were "Caucasians," he informs us [142-148]. As we have demonstrated above, the Muslims who conquered Egypt were mainly Black Arabs from Southern Arabia led by Black Arabs from Mecca in North Central Arabia. With regard to the Nubian invasion, we thus have to do with a Black-on-Black conflict, not a White on Black one.
The Byzantine emperor Heraclius supported the minority Chalcedean church led by the Patriarch from the Caucasus, Cyrus, against the majority Coptic (Monophysite) church. Coptic sources tell of ruthless and systematic persecution of the Copts by the Byzantines. As St. Clair Drake observes: "The Coptic Christians of Egypt welcomed the Arab Muslims as 'liberators' from what they considered the tyranny of their fellow Christians in Constantinople." [Drake, II:90]. According to Hugh Kennedy's research, the Arabian conquerors distinguished between the Egyptian Copts and what they called the 'Rūm' (Romans): the latter were considered the enemy and the former actually assisted the Muslim 'liberators' who were as black as they and even darker [Kennedy, 2007: 149-150]. Copts at Farāma for instance aided the Muslims, and at the little town of Bahnasā the African-Arabian Muslims slaughtered all the 'Rūmī' men, women and children they came across. When Babylon fell to the Muslims, ‘Amr granted protection to the Copts and killed the Romans [Kennedy, 2007: 150; Morimoto, 1997: 98].
There was no attempt to convert the Copts to Islam. As Ira Lapidus explains:
The necessary arrangements between the conqueror(s) and conquered were implemented in the reign of the second Caliph, 'Umar (634-644)...(A) principle of 'Umar's settlement was that the conquered populations should be disturbed as little as possible. This meant that the Arab Muslims did not, contrary to reputation, attempt to convert people to IslamAt the time of the conquests, Islam was meant to be a religion of the Arabs, a mark of caste unity and superiority. When conversions did occur, they were an embarrassment because they created status problems...Just as the Arabs had no interest in changing the religious situation, they had no desire to disturb the social and administrative orderlocal situations were left in local hands(In the conquered lands) the whole of the former social and religious order was left intact [Lapidus, 2002: 36; idem, 1972].
In terms of the local Christian community, Lapidus points out that "Arab policy attached no liability to the church or to membership in it. Nordid the Arabs encourage conversion to Islam." The black Muslims had a 'pro-Black' policy: in direct contrast to the Byzantines who empowered the minority, Roman church, the Muslims empowered the Coptic church. In fact, the Muslims gave all of the Chalcedonian churches over to the Copts and refused to appoint any Chalcedonian Patriarchs. "Thus the [Copts] gained in Egypt and gained in Nubia as well” [Lapidus, 1972: 249]. The Umayyad caliphs Mu’āwīya and ‘Abd al-Mālik (d. 705) built several churches in Alexandria and Fustat, as did the Egyptian governor ‘Abd al-‘Azīz b. Marwān (d. 705). The Church of St. George and the monastery of Abū Qarqar at Hawān are but two examples. This policy lasted for most the Umayyad period (661-750), when Islam was 'a Black thing'. However, toward the end of this period, attitudes and then policy changed. The reign of ‘Umar II (717-720) signaled this changed attitude. He was less protective of the Coptic church and more encouraging of conversion, though Egyptian policy did not change in that regard except that he decreed any converts exempt from the poll-tax that non-Muslims paid. By the Abbasid period, however, things are radically different. Chalcedian Patriarchs were being appointed again and their churches returned to them from the Copts. In other words, the transition from 'Pro-Black Isam' under the black Umayyads to Aryanized Islam under the Abbasids signaled a change in the status for the Coptic church. From 767-868 numerous Coptic revolts occurred in Egypt. In the ninth century Egypt was mainly governed by Turks. From 832 onward, Arabs and Copts together revolted against the government.
In terms of Nubia, ‘Amr b. al-‘As, the conqueror-turned- governor of Egypt, had a non-aggression policy. As Chancellor Williams admits: "despite the continued raids by the Blacks [of the South] he (‘Amr) chose not to extend his operations into their land." This policy, however, will be revoked in 643 by then governor ‘Abd Allāh b. Abī Sarh, who launched an invasion of the northern Nubian kingdom of Makuria. This invasion was a failure, to say the least: the Nubians dealt the Muslims a devastating defeat, and again in 651-652. Williams, aptly describing this conflict as 'one of the decisive battles of history', perceptively remarks: "The psychological effects of being defeated by the Blacks twice on national fronts caused the Arabs to adopt a peaceful relationship with these countries that lasted 600 years." This six-hundred year peace was the result of the baqt agreement, signed by both parties at the conclusion of the 651-652 battle. The baqt was both a non-aggression pact and a trade agreement between Muslim Egypt and Nubia, terms which were determined by the victors: Nubia. The basic terms were:
1. The citizens of each country were allowed free passage to the other, with security guaranteed by the host country. 2. A mosque was to be built in Nubia and a church in Egypt. 3. 360 slaves annually sent by Nubia to Egypt, in exchange for 1300 ardeb of wheat and 1300 kanīr of wine, linen and cloth.
The last stipulation has been the focus of some criticism and misrepresentation in some Christian and Afrocentrist circles, with support even from Muslim misrepresentation. This part of the agreement is often described as tribute imposed on the hapless Nubians by the lustful Muslim slavers, a covert plan to eventually conquer the Sudan. But this interpretation completely fails to take proper notice of a simple fact: the Nubians were the victors and therefore had the leverage. As Jay Spauling explains:
The Nubians won decisively. 'The Muslimshad never suffered a loss like the one they had in Nubia.' For the next six centuries thereafter the Nubian authorities were able to impose their own terms upon relations with the Islamic world, an arrangement commonly knownas the baqt. The baqt exemplified the institution of administered diplomatic trade through which eastern Sudanic kings normally preferred to conduct their foreign relationsWith the passage of centuries, various Islamic intellectuals, eager to forget the initial Nubian victory, devised increasingly elaborate and fanciful accounts that undertook to construe baqt shipments as payment of tribute (emphasis mine-WM) [Spauling, 2000:117].”
The baqt was thus a Nubian arrangement made with the defeated Muslims, not the other way around, and it had precedent in common Sudanic diplomacy: trading with Nubian slaves goes back to ancient Kemet [Redford, 2004]. In fact, the import of slaves from Nubia to the Muslims in Egypt should probably be seen in context of earlier Egyptian/Nubian relations. As Drake points out:
(Ancient) Egyptian cultural imperialism there certainly was-and it involved economic exploitation of Nubia as well-but there was no color discrimination involved. Some of the pharaohs were as dark or darker than any of their Nubian subjects…The Egyptian and Nubian masses were both exploited, although Egyptians were never enslaved. Some Nubians undoubtedly were enslaved, but slavery was not racial. European and Asian war captives predominated in Egypt and in Nubian gold mines as slaves [Drake, 1987, II:218-219].
Nonetheless, it should be reemphasized that in the working out of the baqt agreement, the victorious Nubians had the leverage. The arrangement guaranteed Nubia's independence and facilitated Nubian national/cultural progress for six centuries.
The [baqt]...secured the independence of the Christian Nubian state for many centuries to come. Although there were occasional attempts to convert the rulersthe general policy of the Muslim Egyptian government was to leave the Christian kingdom undisturbed. The friendly relationship between the Egyptian rulers and Nubian monarchs opened the door for (Muslim traders) [Hrbek and El Fasi, 1992: 44].
The resulting trade opportunities contributed to a Nubian florescence. As S. Jakobielski notes in his study of Christian Nubia:
The truce was upheld throughout the next five centuries of Christian civilization in Nubia and in its initial phase was crucial for maintaining peace and the possibilities for national development. The lack of any real threat on the part of the Arabs and the possibilities of carrying on trade with Egypt and maintaining contacts with Byzantium led to the development of a distinctive Nubian cultureThus the end of eighth century saw Nubia moving into its period of prosperity, which lasted up to and including over a half of the twelfth century and was also conditioned by a favorable economic situation. [Jakobielski, 1992: 103].
Williams makes the same point:
The 600-year détente with the Arabs in Egypt was a period of...reconciliation and progressEven church and cathedral building expanded from this center of Black culture over the Western regions of Chad and adjoining states." [Williams, 1987:147].
Hostilities between Muslim Egypt and Christian Nubia began in the 13th century. Egypt was ruled by the Turkish oligarchy, the Mamluks. In 1269 the Mamluk sultan Baybars rejected a Makuria baqt initiative, a rejection for which the Nubian king retaliated by sacking the Egyptian Red Sea port of Aydhab in 1272. Four years later Mamluk forces invade and conquer Makuria and by 1324 the land became a rich slaving ground for Muslim merchants. It is to be emphasized here that while Islam was 'still black', if you will, relations with the Copts and Nubians were relatively peaceful and mutually beneficial. As John Henrik Clark admits: "The peaceful Arab and African partnership in the city- states of Africa went on for more than a century before the Arabs turned their normal trading apparatus into a human slave trading enterprise." [Clarke, 1992: iv]. That century was the period of the black Umayyad Dynasty. In post-Umayyad Islam which went through a process of Persianization and Turkifization (sic) or, in short, Aryanization, racism became rampant such that Islam went from Pro-Black to Anti-Black. This process impacted the literature, the theologies, and the policies of the Islamic world. The most horrendous legacy of this process is the East African Slave Trade.
References
Abu-Bakr, Mohammed. (1993) Islam's Black Legacy: Some Leading Figures (Denver: Purple Dawn Books, 1993)
Idem. (2002) The Unknown Arabs: Clear, Definitive Proof of the Dark Complexion of the Original Arabs and the Arab Origin of the So-Called African Americans (n.p., n.p.).
Bury, Wyman. (1998) The Land of Uz (Garnet & Ithaca Press, 1998 [reprint]), xiii.
Chinyelu, Mamadou, "Africans in the Birth and Spread of Islam," in Ivan van Sertima, Golden Age of the Moor (Journal of African Civilizations, Vol 11, Fall 1991: Transaction Publishers).
Clarke, John Henrik.(1992) "Introduction," in Alfred Butler, The Arab Invasion of Egypt and the Last Years of Roman Domination (New York: A&B Publishers, 1992 [1902]).
Coon, Carleton Stevens. (1939) The Races of Europe (New York: The Macmillan Company, 1939): 429
Damani-Issifou, Z. (1992) "Islam as a social system in Africa since the seventh century," in I Hrbek (ed.), UNESCO General History of Africa, III: Africa from the Seventh to the Eleventh Century (Abridged Edition; Paris, UNESCO, 1992)
Diouf, Sylviane Anna. (1998) Servants of Allah: African Muslims enslaved in the Americas (NYU Press, 1998).
Diop, Cheikh Anta. (1967) The African Origin of Civilization (Westport: Lawrence Hill & Company, 1967)
Idem. (1987) Precolonial Black Africa: A Comparative Study of the Political and Social Systems of Europe and Black Africa, From Antiquity to the Formation of Modern States (Chicago: Lawrence Hill Books, 1987)
Drake, St. Clair. (1987) Black Folk Here and There 2 vols. (Los Angeles: Center For Afro-American Studies University of California, 1987)
Du Bois, W.E.B. (1979). The World and Africa (Intl Pub; Revised edition, 1979).
Harris, Joseph E. (1987) Africans and Their History, Revised Edition (New York: New American Library, 1987)
Hrbek I. and M. El Fasi. (1992) "Stages in the Development of Islam and its Dissemination in Africa," in I Hrbek (ed.), UNESCO General History of Africa, III: Africa from the Seventh to the Eleventh Century (Abridged Edition; Paris, UNESCO, 1992)
Jakobielski, S. (1992) "Christian Nubia at the Height of its Civilization," in I Hrbek (ed.), UNESCO General History of Africa, III: Africa from the Seventh to the Eleventh Century (Abridged Edition; Paris, UNESCO, 1992)
Kennedy, Hugh. (2007) The Great Arab Conquests: How the Spread of Islam Changed the World We Live In (Philadelphia: Da Capo Press, 2007)
Lapidus, Ira M. (1972) "The conversion of Egypt to Islam," Israel Oriental Studies 2 (1972): 248-261.
Idem. (2002). A History of Islamic Societies, 2nd Edition (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2002).
Lewis, Bernard. (1990) Race and Slavery in the Middle East: An Historical Enquiry (New York and Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1990). Morimoto, Kōsei. (1997) “Muslim Controversies Regarding the Arab Conquest of Egypt,” Orient 13: 89-105.
Idem. (2009) Black Arabia and the African Origin of Islam (Atlanta, A-Team Publishing).
Nebel, Almut et al, (2002) "Genetic evidence for the Expansion of Arabian Tribes into the Southern Levant and North Africa," American Journal of Human Genetics 70 (2002): 594-1596.
Redford, Donald B. (2004) From Slave to Pharaoh: The Black Experience of Ancient Egypt (Baltimore and London: The Johns Hopkins Press, 2004).
Spaulding, Jay. (2000) "Precolonial Islam in the Eastern Sudan," in Nehemia Levtzion and Randall L. Pouwels (edd.), The History of Islam in Africa (Athens: Ohio University Press, 2000)
Trimingham, J. Spencer. (1970) A History of Islam in West Africa (London: Oxford University, 1970)
Williams, Chancellor. (1987) The Destruction of Black Civilization: Great Issues of a Race From 4500 B.C. to 2000 A.D. (Chicago: Third World Press, 1987)
Posts: 29 | Registered: Jul 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: http://news.yahoo.com/yemen-vp-presents-transition-plan-saleh-stays-130958035.html Yemen's Saleh appears on TV, offers to share power SANAA/ADEN (Reuters) - Yemen's President Ali Abdullah Saleh appeared on television on Thursday for the first time since an assassination attempt a month ago and said he was ready to share power within the constitution's framework.
Just slipping that in there killing two birds with one stone.
I didn't know dude was that dark!
^^That was a very good couple of posts too Wesley!!
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Hey smartass, first explain what yellow skin symbolizes, with sources.
Nobody knows what the yellow portrayal of women symbolizes, dumbass! All we know is that it is symbolic of something because such a color disparity between genders of the same population does not exist and there are times when women are portrayed as having the same complexion as men!
Here are a couple of sources:
“Sufficient traces of pigment indicate that both sculptures were painted in the traditional gender-specific hues—red or reddish brown for men and yellow for women. According to one explanation for this distinction, Egyptian men worked outdoors and thus developed deeper tans than women, who stayed around the house. Some Old Kingdom representation show yellow-skinned Egyptian men whose bulky proportions indicate less stressful work performed indoors. Furthermore, in several instances men who have just had haircuts were shown with yellow or light-skinned scalps, which contrast with the red flesh of the body. Under Egypt’s fierce sun, however, few persons would have remained pale-faced; therefore the representation of skin color may have been more symbolic than accurate. Among several values, red had connotations of vitality while yellow suggested immortality and perhaps beauty.” Anne K. Capel, Mistress of the House, Mistress of Heaven: Women in Ancient Egypt
“Male and female skin colors were probably not uniform among the entire population of Egypt, with pigmentation being darker in the south[closer to sub-saharan Africans] and lighter in the north[closer to Mediterranean Near Easterners] A woman from the south would probably have had darker skin than a man from the North. Thus,the colorations used for skin tones in the art must have been schematic [or symbolic] rather than realistic; the clear gender distinction encoded in that scheme may have been based on elite ideals relating to male and female roles, in which women's responsibilities kept them indoors, so that they spent less time in the sun than men. Nevertheless, the significance of the two colors may be even deeper, making some as yet unknown but fundamental difference between men and women in Egyptian worldview.....” Gay Robins, The Ancient God Speaks by Donald Redford
The old Euro-based Medieval age theory of women staying in indoors holds little water for the fact that peasant women working outdoors alongside men are also portrayed in the yellow scheme. And even wealthy elite women spent time outdoors with their husbands especially doing recreational activities while leaving domestic work to servants.
There are various theories as to what the actual color may symbolize, but there are no answers from ancient texts.
quote:Then explain why in the skin color in the statues above the women do not have yellow skin
but rather much closer to this sand color:
Duh! The same reason why the men have only slightly darker sand colored skin-- the paint FADED!!
If it were not for the fading, their color would appear like this couple!
quote:Now explain the symbolism of Gods and Goddesses sometimes being portrayed looking yellow
That's easy. Gold was viewed as the immortal flesh of the gods. I suggest you do research on the subject of color in ancient Egyptian art.
By the way, even though we don't know what exactly the yellow coloration on women meant, it is interesting to note that in some African cultures specifically Afrasian speaking groups in the Sahara, eastern Sudan, and the Horn, women would wear yellow ochre on their skin during special occasions. Women among the Tuareg, Beja, and some Ethiopians would do this even today.
Posts: 26613 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ LOL The same pathetically desperate strawman argument comparing modern ebony black Sudanese in real life to ancient Egyptian depictions where the woman was SYMBOLICALLY colored yellow as all Egyptologists acknowledge. Realistically the women would have been the same complexion or close to it as men. Pictures of Modern Egyptians where fair-skinned women are preferred including women who use skin bleaching creams definitely do NOT represent ancient custom.
Funny how you use Katep and his wife Hetepheres as an example of "cauasians".
^ As you can see there is nothing "caucasian" about their features unless you believe "caucasians" can vary but not "negroes". LOL
Also the color of Katep himself is no different from his Old Kingdom contemporaries.
^ All skin tones found among black Africans. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Dahoslips 101: [qb] W
Lol! Djehuti you are absolutely right. He sure made the mistake of putting to Negro- looking Egyptians on his post with paint coming off. I was going to say that before I saw your comment.
As J.A. Rogers said about Americans who were referring to Hawaiians for the first time "They may call them Hawaiians but they sure looks like N---_-to me." Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: http://news.yahoo.com/yemen-vp-presents-transition-plan-saleh-stays-130958035.html Yemen's Saleh appears on TV, offers to share power SANAA/ADEN (Reuters) - Yemen's President Ali Abdullah Saleh appeared on television on Thursday for the first time since an assassination attempt a month ago and said he was ready to share power within the constitution's framework.
Just slipping that in there killing two birds with one stone.
I didn't know dude was that dark!
^^That was a very good couple of posts too Wesley!!
Actually he must have gotten a good tan because his other pictures show him as the typical fair-skinned Yemenite type.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Actually he must have gotten a good tan because his other pictures show him as the typical fair-skinned Yemenite type.
u guyz need to stop it LOL His skin is severely burned, not tanned. u can see it from the tip of his nose and his lips , by the way that guy hates original yemenis. they have him on u tube calling southerners africans and indians. he is a typical northern san3ni turk zaydi . they all believe like him.
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The Arabs who brought Islam were probably one of the few people entering Egypt blacker than the Egyptians themselves. The already partly non-African "red" or fair-skinned Copts of Northern Egypt of the time of the Prophet encountered the lava black tribes of Sulaym and the Hilal of the Hawazin described by Jahiz and the Kurd Ibn Athir. And the Shadeed al Udmah jet black Azd clans of the Khazraj or Aus who were the Ansar or companions of the Prophet. Not to mention the Quraysh of the Kenaniyya themselves still black and living in Hejaz and Israel.
your whole post is ambiguous. Hilali and Banu Sulaym..looked like any modern saudi.. most of the north african arabs are from the Hilali & Sulaym stock and look...tanned.
You've got to be kidding me. Because there are today near white families today in your country (wherever that is) that have the last name Hilali your telling me the Sulaymi and Hilali had to be tanned near white people a thousand years ago? LOL!
Here is what happened to the Sulaymi over time in Saudi Arabia. I don't want to be offensive but this nonsense fostered by people over the past few centuries has got to stop. Nadia el-Cheikh, in the book, Byzantium Viewed by the Arabs quotes a passage in which a man from the Arab clan of “Banu Salima”, during an excursion led by Muhammed (pbuh), asked the Prophet to let him stay behind saying, “I am afraid that if I see a Byzantine woman that I won’t be able to control myself” (p. 124).
Are you telling me you have not heard of the Kurd Al Athir's folk stories and al-Jahiz's statements - about the Sulaym and other tribes of the Qays Ailan and Kinanah and their taking of white concubines. The commentary of Jahiz on the Banu Sulaim and other tribes of Harrah al Sulaymi in the Hijaz is usually translated as follows: “These tribes take slaves from among the Ashban to mind their flocks and for irrigation work, manual labor, and domestic service, and their concubines from among the Byzantines..."
I'm also very sorry that you don't appear to be aware of what modern Saudis look like or what North African Arabs look like. They are about as diverse in their complexion as the people of Puerto Rico and Dominican Republic. Many of the Arabs in the Tihama and Central Nejd where the original Hilal of the Hawazin bin Mansur and Sulaym bin Mansour came from are still quite dark and many near black in color.
The Beni Hilal In ARAB GENEALOGY came from the Hawazin bin Mansour and like all Hawazin Bin Mansur and their brethren Sulaym bin Mansour they were said to be near black in color. Their least mixed North African descendants such as Trarza and Banu Hassan and the many tribes in the Sahara, Sudan and Chad who claim Sulaym and Hawazin descent are mostly dark brown in color even after the importation of women of the North.
That is why Ibn Mansour (14th c.) who was familiar with the Arabs of Hawazin and Sulaym settled in his country in Tunisia said most Arabs are dark brown and kinky haired and call themselve "THE BLACKS" while the Arabs "attribute white skin to the slaves".
Did Al Jahiz 9th c. not state the Sulaym and ALL OF THE TRIBES OF THE HARRA were black "as the lava" of the Al-Harra.
The tribes closely related to the Hawazin or their descendants in Nejd and Iraq where they are called the blacks are referred to as "abid" just as the descendants of the Zanj are today.
An APS Diplomat Redrawing the Islamic Map, newsletter published on December 15, 2008 (Distributed by Gale, a part of Cengage Learning)- "there are two main categories of blacks in Iraq, mostly in the south, who total about 300,000: those of East African origin numbering around 100,000; and those of whom are Arab and originate from the Hejaz,..both groups used to be far more numerous in the past centuries, many of them having inter-married with the locals and thus the colour of their skin has since been changed, though most remain darker than other Iraqis.” (Arab Press Service)
The Hawazin tribes in Iraq until today include the Banu Muntafiq bin Uqayl, the Uqayl bin Ka'ab, the Ka'b bin Rabia and Rabi'a bin Amir of the Amir bin Sasa'a, and among them were once the Banu Numayr ibn Cassit, Qushayr, Banu Sami, Jada'a, Suwat and Ajlan who stretched southward to Yemamah and teh Wadi Dawasir.
These tribes made up most of the North Arabians: "The Banu Ka’b are themselves described as sons of Rabi’ah, son of Amir son of Sa’sa’ah, and the Banu Rabi’ah were one of four sister-tribes, of which the other three were the Banu Numayr, Suwat and Hilal... Ibn Khaldun states on the authority of Ibn Hazm (11th c. that the great sept of the banu ‘Amir ibn Sa’sa’ah alone equaled in numbers all the other Modarite tribes.... "The Banu ‘Okayl were divided into many subtribes. Of these were the Banu Muntafik, son of Amir, son of ‘Okayl,.." H.C. Kay, Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society, Volume 18, Issue 04, 491-526.
I have already posted a number of time how the Ka'b, Muntafiq and Uqayl, were described up until the 19th century. In 1881, G. Rawlinson described the appearance of the Banu Ka’b bin Rebi’ah or “Cha’ab” and Muntafik bin Uqayl bin Ka’b of the Beni Amir in Khuzestan claiming they had a complexion like that of the “Galla” (Oromo) Ethiopians. (The second volume of his Five Great Monarchies of the Ancient Eastern World reads (Rawlinson, 1881, p. 35.)
The Gale Encyclopaedia of the Middle East and North Africa entry for the Muntafik tribe states “Muntafiq designates a 300,000-member tribal confederation of settled, seminomadic, and nomadic tribes, including the Ajwad, Bani Malik, Bani Sa’id, Dhafir, and Jashalam. They occupied the banks of the Euphrates from Chabaish to Darraji, and the Shatt al-Gharraf as far as Kut al-Hay…” (Jwaideh, 2004)
So much for ambiguity. Is that detailed enough or would you like to hear more.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by alurubenson: [img][/img]
quote:I didn't know dude was that dark!
quote:Actually he must have gotten a good tan because his other pictures show him as the typical fair-skinned Yemenite type.
u guyz need to stop it LOL His skin is severely burned, not tanned. u can see it from the tip of his nose and his lips , by the way that guy hates original yemenis. they have him on u tube calling southerners africans and indians. he is a typical northern san3ni turk zaydi . they all believe like him.
Well I feel sorry for him but what is a san ni zaydi.Like one of the Proverbs of the good books say - "there, but for the grace of God, go I".
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
^^^^^silly me I never read the caption you added later; Saleh suffered sever burns. the lioness was wrong on this one. Brada-Anansi had put up the picture and not mentioned severed burns, only "assassination attempt". then later King-Scorpion adds "I didn't know dude was that dark" it was the blind leading the blind but know I can see, and I think other people had used this same photo elsewhere, without the caption
Here's some non-burned photos of President Saleh
he's dark
only sometimes
Posts: 43199 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: ^^^^^silly me I never read the caption you added later; Saleh suffered sever burns. the lioness was wrong on this one... blah..blah..baaaa
Lioness my Duncey
You are always wrong, always wrong.... and that is the problem.
Lion
Posts: 7419 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2009
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You've got to be kidding me. Because there are today near white families today in your country (wherever that is) that have the last name Hilali your telling me the Sulaymi and Hilali had to be tanned near white people a thousand years ago? LOL!
not only u but his self too because there are indonesians on there now maybe i should be corrected but the massive hilali migration was western and not the south eastern asian islands
oh yeah lioness not to be nitpickey but the president would not be considered dark. He probably would call himself asmar like alot of deluded arabs but they dont mean asmar like african as THEY THEMSELVES SAY. They know what asmar really mean but they say no different than whites in western countries who say that they are tanned when the word actually means to brown or blacken a hide, but they are not literally brown like a real dark-skinned person.
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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You've got to be kidding me. Because there are today near white families today in your country (wherever that is) that have the last name Hilali your telling me the Sulaymi and Hilali had to be tanned near white people a thousand years ago? LOL!
not only u but his self too because there are indonesians on there now maybe i should be corrected but the massive hilali migration was western and not the south eastern asian islands
oh yeah lioness not to be nitpickey but the president would not be considered dark. He probably would call himself asmar like alot of deluded arabs but they dont mean asmar like african as THEY THEMSELVES SAY. They know what asmar really mean but they say no different than whites in western countries who say that they are tanned when the word actually means to brown or blacken a hide, but they are not literally brown like a real dark-skinned person.
yes -unfortunately meaning of the name asmar and sumra has changed according to the people who are now speaking Arabic. Apparently al Jawzi and others used it for the Abyssinians and simultaneously the early Arabs.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa: Dana marniche, you sure have a lot of imagination One of my friend is a Hilali and she doesnt fit your description. im related to the Banu sulaym.. and once again! utter bull***!
Most of the maghrebi arabs have Hilali and/or Sulaym ancestries and are nowhere near black!
SMH
you are exactly right most maghrebi Arabs have Hilali Hawazin and Sulaym bin Mansur blood. Now go look up what the Kurd Ibn Athir and al Jahiz say the Sulaym ibn Mansur looked 1000 years ago.
And don't call it MY DESCRIPTION. I wasn't there and neither were you.
The commentary of the 9th c. Jahiz on the Banu Sulaim is usually translated as follows: “These tribes take slaves from among the Ashban to mind their flocks and for irrigation work, manual labor, and domestic service, and their wives from among the Byzantines; and yet it takes less than three generations for the Harra to give them all the complexion of the Banu Sulaim”. Jahiz also says "all the peoples settled in the Harra, beside the Sulaim are also black.”
In the text, Byzantium Viewed by the Arabs (2004), author Nadia el-Cheikh quotes a passage in which a man from the Arab clan of “Banu Salima”, during an incursion led by Muhammed, asked the Prophet to let him stay behind saying, “I am afraid that if I see a Byzantine woman that I won’t be able to control myself” (p. 124).
Now are you trying to tell me that doesn't sound like a black man. lol! maybe you need to use YOUR IMAGINATION a bit more.
BTW - I guess blonds had more fun back then too. True to life painting of Hawazin man with child in Hijaz by 19th century German artist Carl Haag who visited the region
Painting reads Bachist, a Hawazeen bedouin and Mabzookh his little son. done Feb. 8th 1859.
Ka'b tribes in Iraq come from the Hawazin
So much for your non-black Hilalians. My advice to you. Don't be afraid of the dark. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa: Dana marniche, you sure have a lot of imagination One of my friend is a Hilali and she doesnt fit your description. im related to the Banu sulaym.. and once again! utter bull***!
Most of the maghrebi arabs have Hilali and/or Sulaym ancestries and are nowhere near black!
SMH
you are exactly right most maghrebi Arabs have Hilali Hawazin and Sulaym bin Mansur blood. Now go look up what the Kurd Ibn Athir and al Jahiz say the Sulaym ibn Mansur looked 1000 years ago.
And don't call it MY DESCRIPTION. I wasn't there and neither were you.
The commentary of the 9th c. Jahiz on the Banu Sulaim is usually translated as follows: “These tribes take slaves from among the Ashban to mind their flocks and for irrigation work, manual labor, and domestic service, and their wives from among the Byzantines; and yet it takes less than three generations for the Harra to give them all the complexion of the Banu Sulaim”. Jahiz also says "all the peoples settled in the Harra, beside the Sulaim are also black.”
In the text, Byzantium Viewed by the Arabs (2004), author Nadia el-Cheikh quotes a passage in which a man from the Arab clan of “Banu Salima”, during an incursion led by Muhammed, asked the Prophet to let him stay behind saying, “I am afraid that if I see a Byzantine woman that I won’t be able to control myself” (p. 124).
Now are you trying to tell me that doesn't sound like a black man. lol! maybe you need to use YOUR IMAGINATION a bit more.
BTW - I guess blonds had more fun back then too. True to life painting of Hawazin man with child in Hijaz by 19th century German artist Carl Haag who visited the region
Painting reads Bachist, a Hawazeen bedouin and Mabzookh his little son. done Feb. 8th 1859.
Ka'b tribes in Iraq come from the Hawazin
So much for your non-black Hilalians. My advice to you. Don't be afraid of the dark.
First of all, im black. ok? And certainly not because of the arabs
Are you aware that half of the Maghrebins have arab ancestries? Do they look black to you? or do i need an eye exam?
Are you aware that the blacks in the arabian peninsula are moslty the offsprings of the Black Slaves from South East Africa?
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as u can see his skin is black, not tanned
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