posted
Check my new thread ''Dinka/Nuer are descendants of Ancient Kush'' where I completely obliterate The Myth that Nubians descend from Kush. BTW if we both agree that Nubt is the origin then any usage of the term must apply to The Nubt era(Falsely called the Naqada era). What you are failing to realize is that there was no distinction between the ''A-group'' and ''Nubt''. They were all Egyptians and they never had anything to do with Kush.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ase, the funny thing is that Nubt of the first nome was NOT a proto-state at all. It was just one town. The actual proto-state of the Setiu was the region SOUTH of Aswan. What's more is that the town of Nubt was never really important in the 1st nome. The actual capital of the 1st nome was Yebu (modern Elephantine) which was an island near the 1st Cataract and the trade port into NUBIA to the south!!
The guy keeps tossing the word Aswan but does not realize that Nubians are NOT from there but SOUTH of Aswan in the areas now flooded by the dam.
^ Before the building of the Dam, Egyptian Nubia or Lower Nubia was a narrow valley and the Nubians who lived there had to move because their homes were going to be flooded. Those further south crossed the border into Sudanese Nubia while others fled north into Aswan or other areas further north. The right of return was for those Nubians who fled into Sudan and the government says they can even return to Lower Nubia and rebuild their homes around Lake Nasser!
Even the famous temple of Abu Simbel originally closer to the flood plain had to be moved further away from the river to be saved!
And again modern Nubians are NOT the same as the predynastic Setiu. They are removed by thousands of years. Do modern Nubians have ancestry to the Setiu? Yes that is likely, but today linguistically and culturally they have more in common with the Toubou people of Libya than with ancient Egypt! This is like saying modern Macedonians who speak Slavic language are the same as Bronze Age Macedonians. The moderns may have ancestry from the former but they are obviously not the same.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
We do not agree Nubt is the origin. Ta-Seti or the modern city of Aswan is the point of origin for Egyptians that identify as Nubian. There is no distinction between A-group, Aswan and Ta-Seti. Not Naqada/Nubt that was a separate proto-state or city that was eventually absorbed into other Upper Egyptian protostates, and was among the first to do so. I'm not arguing they mostly descended from Kush but I'm not arguing they were from the area of Nubt specifically.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: Check my new thread ''Dinka/Nuer are descendants of Ancient Kush'' where I completely obliterate The Myth that Nubians descend from Kush. BTW if we both agree that Nubt is the origin then any usage of the term must apply to The Nubt era(Falsely called the Naqada era). What you are failing to realize is that there was no distinction between the ''A-group'' and ''Nubt''. They were all Egyptians and they never had anything to do with Kush.
Suppose Russia took over America and subjugated it's people. In New York the Russian occupiers might refer to the people already living there as New Yorkers. Yet the person might might not be Dutch as the early New Yorkers were or they might not be Native American as were people there prior to the Dutch
So if the Romans occupied Egypt in 30 BC then whoever was living in Nubt is not necessary the same people who were there when the Egyptian city of Nubt was established
The Roman Empire used the term "Nubia" to describe the area of Upper Egypt and northern Sudan. So if they came in in 30 BC and called people living in Nubt "Nubians" that does not necessarily correspond to who the Egyptians regarded as Native of Nubt when the city was formed just like a French family could have migrated to Sweden 300 years ago and might look like the Swedes but they would be relatively recent Swedish nationals of a French background not a Swedish background
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
^ Before the building of the Dam, Egyptian Nubia or Lower Nubia was a narrow valley and the Nubians who lived there had to move because their homes were going to be flooded. Those further south crossed the border into Sudanese Nubia while others fled north into Aswan or other areas further north. The right of return was for those Nubians who fled into Sudan and the government says they can even return to Lower Nubia and rebuild their homes around Lake Nasser!
In the spring of 1964 fifty thousand Egyptian Nubians were transported from various sites in the southern part of Lower Nubia and resettled 30 miles to the North in Kom Ombo where Nubt was.
Most Nubians however are mixed in to other Egyptian cities where jobs are
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: Check my new thread ''Dinka/Nuer are descendants of Ancient Kush'' where I completely obliterate The Myth that Nubians descend from Kush. BTW if we both agree that Nubt is the origin then any usage of the term must apply to The Nubt era(Falsely called the Naqada era). What you are failing to realize is that there was no distinction between the ''A-group'' and ''Nubt''. They were all Egyptians and they never had anything to do with Kush.
Suppose Russia took over America and subjugated it's people. In New York the Russian occupiers might refer to the people already living there as New Yorkers. Yet the person might might not be Dutch as the early New Yorkers were or they might not be Native American as were people there prior to the Dutch
So if the Romans occupied Egypt in 30 BC then whoever was living in Nubt is not necessary the same people who were there when the Egyptian city of Nubt was established
The Roman Empire used the term "Nubia" to describe the area of Upper Egypt and northern Sudan. So if they came in in 30 BC and called people living in Nubt "Nubians" that does not necessarily correspond to who the Egyptians regarded as Native of Nubt when the city was formed just like a French family could have migrated to Sweden 300 years ago and might look like the Swedes but they would be relatively recent Swedish nationals of a French background not a Swedish background
I see where you're going but The Nubians are recognized as The countries oldest inhabitants. Had they not been those same people of Ancient Nubt then they would've never been granted Indigenous status regardless if it has been halted or not.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
| IP: Logged |
posted
Why do you think this when Ta Seti was among the oldest predynastic protostates? They ARE among the oldest inhabitants of Ancient Egypt. Nubt was a major city in the predynastic. But being the oldest inhabitant of the country that was Ancient Egypt is considering who was there at the start of the country, not the history before unification. In which case, the people of Ta Seti don't even have to descend from the first proto state or city to hold a claim. They just have to have been a group that was part of Egypt from the moment of unification. They don't need to be from the predynastic town/city of Nubt. Most people would grant those that have lived on land for at least several thousand years indigenous status, regardless of where the first towns and cities came from.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: The Nubians are recognized as The countries oldest inhabitants. Had they not been those same people of Ancient Nubt then they would've never been granted Indigenous status regardless if it has been halted or not.
The Nubians of today were granted indigenous status because they were relocated to the Nubt which is now called Kom Ombo from their indigenous land 30 miles to the south of Nubt
So you have things backwards.
So why are they called Nubians? Because the Romans and Greeks felt like calling them that and the Roamns arrived much later than the foundation of Nubt
If Nubians were named after gold (and that may not be a correct theory) Nubt is not the only place that had gold mines. They were also in the Eastern desert of Egypt and in Sudan
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: The Nubians are recognized as The countries oldest inhabitants. Had they not been those same people of Ancient Nubt then they would've never been granted Indigenous status regardless if it has been halted or not.
The Nubians of today were granted indigenous status because they were relocated to the Nubt which is now called Kom Ombo from their indigenous land 30 miles to the south of Nubt
So you have things backwards.
So why are they called Nubians? Because the Romans and Greeks felt like calling them that and they arrived much later than the foundation of Nubt
If they were named after gold (and that may not be a correct theory) Nubt is not the only place that had gold mines. They were also in the Eastern desert of Egypt and in Sudan
I already told you they originated from Nubt but that they were not restricted to Nubt so of course they would call land 30 miles south their Home because it was ALL THE SAME LAND MASS!. They are Indigenous to the country of Egypt but The Egyptian government is restricting them to the southern tip even into the Siwa Oasis. Once you are Indigenous to a City or state in a country then that makes you Indigenous to the entire country. This is why you are Indigenous to a Country and Native to a City. Indigenous and Native are two different things. So what you aren't realizing is that while The Government is granting them Indigenous status they are restricting them to a small part of Southern Egypt. They are essentially giving them crumbs.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Ase, the funny thing is that Nubt of the first nome was NOT a proto-state at all. It was just one town. The actual proto-state of the Setiu was the region SOUTH of Aswan. What's more is that the town of Nubt was never really important in the 1st nome. The actual capital of the 1st nome was Yebu (modern Elephantine) which was an island near the 1st Cataract and the trade port into NUBIA to the south!!
The guy keeps tossing the word Aswan but does not realize that Nubians are NOT from there but SOUTH of Aswan in the areas now flooded by the dam.
^ Before the building of the Dam, Egyptian Nubia or Lower Nubia was a narrow valley and the Nubians who lived there had to move because their homes were going to be flooded. Those further south crossed the border into Sudanese Nubia while others fled north into Aswan or other areas further north. The right of return was for those Nubians who fled into Sudan and the government says they can even return to Lower Nubia and rebuild their homes around Lake Nasser!
Even the famous temple of Abu Simbel originally closer to the flood plain had to be moved further away from the river to be saved!
And again modern Nubians are NOT the same as the predynastic Setiu. They are removed by thousands of years. Do modern Nubians have ancestry to the Setiu? Yes that is likely, but today linguistically and culturally they have more in common with the Toubou people of Libya than with ancient Egypt! This is like saying modern Macedonians who speak Slavic language are the same as Bronze Age Macedonians. The moderns may have ancestry from the former but they are obviously not the same.
The Nubians of today are exactly the same as the people of Ancient Ta-Seti and 99% of Egyptologists would agree. Why do you think there is so much controversy regarding The Qustul culture?. If todays Nubians are just recent immigrants like you claim. Then why are Egyptologists classifying The Nubians of that era as a foreign ''A-Group'' distinct from The Naqada(Nubt) culture?. If we had evidence of a recent migration then why are Egyptologists going through all of this trouble to classify Nubians as foreign if there is already supposed evidence that they are recent migrants and were not present in Egypt during that era?. Wouldn't that be the perfect opportunity for Egyptologists to classify The Nubians as foreigners?. The truth is we have no evidence of a mass 4th century AD migration from the western desert. It never happened. Egypt was a Roman colony during that time period and there is absolutely no way that The Romans would allow a foreign people to come set up a Kingdom inside of their colony. This why the 4th century claim is not acknowledged by Egyptologists because it never happened and if it did it certainly wasn't significant because there is not enough evidence for it. The Nubians of today are those same Nubians from back then. Even the most Racist Egyptologists would agree with this. They are The people of Ancient Nubt(Naqada) and they are also the people of The Qustul(Ta-Seti) culture. What you fail to realize is that THE PEOPLE OF NUBT(NAQADA) AND THE PEOPLE OF QUSTUL(TA-SETI) WERE THE EXACT SAME PEOPLE!!!!!. THEY WERE ALL EGYPTIANS AND ALL OF THESE PLACES WERE IN EGYPT!!!!. This is why the false ''A-group'' classification was created. They are trying to create the illusion that the people of Qustul(Ta-Seti) were foreigners from Kush WHEN THEY WERE ETHNIC EGYPTIANS EXACTLY LIKE THE PEOPLE OF NUBT(NAQADA). THEY WERE ALL NUBTS(NUBIANS). This is why though The Nubians are being given crumbs by the Egyptian government and being restricted to the area 30 miles south of Aswan. They are still considered an Indigenous Egyptian people. They are being given crumbs and not the whole pie that belongs to them. You think they are only Indigenous to that small piece of land that the government granted them a right to return to??????? SMH!. THEY ARE INDIGENOUS TO THE ENTIRE COUNTRY OF EGYPT. ONCE YOU EMERGE AS A PEOPLE INSIDE A PARTICULAR CITY INSIDE A COUNTRY THEN THAT MAKES YOU INDIGENOUS TO THE ENTIRE COUNTRY GENIUS!. YOU CANNOT JUST BE INDIGENOUS TO A CITY. YOU ARE NATIVE TO A CITY AND INDIGENOUS TO A COUNTRY!. The Nubts(Nubians) emerged in The City of Nubt and POPULATED THE ENTIRE COUNTRY!!. They produced The entire Egyptian population. The Nubts were to Egypt what The Romans were to Italy.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: Check my new thread ''Dinka/Nuer are descendants of Ancient Kush'' where I completely obliterate The Myth that Nubians descend from Kush. BTW if we both agree that Nubt is the origin then any usage of the term must apply to The Nubt era(Falsely called the Naqada era). What you are failing to realize is that there was no distinction between the ''A-group'' and ''Nubt''. They were all Egyptians and they never had anything to do with Kush.
Suppose Russia took over America and subjugated it's people. In New York the Russian occupiers might refer to the people already living there as New Yorkers. Yet the person might might not be Dutch as the early New Yorkers were or they might not be Native American as were people there prior to the Dutch
So if the Romans occupied Egypt in 30 BC then whoever was living in Nubt is not necessary the same people who were there when the Egyptian city of Nubt was established
The Roman Empire used the term "Nubia" to describe the area of Upper Egypt and northern Sudan. So if they came in in 30 BC and called people living in Nubt "Nubians" that does not necessarily correspond to who the Egyptians regarded as Native of Nubt when the city was formed just like a French family could have migrated to Sweden 300 years ago and might look like the Swedes but they would be relatively recent Swedish nationals of a French background not a Swedish background
Theoretically you are correct, but Rome never occupied Nubt in large numbers. Meaning by occupants from Europe. Rome was cosmopolitan, it could be that employed natives made part of the Roman Empire at Nubt.
Btw, The African Juan Rodriguez discovered New York and large parts of NY, like Manhattan have been build by Africans, Africans from the Congo region and later from West Africa. Cemeteries tell the story.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
The city of Nubt is most famous for the Predynastic settlement of South Town and its associated cemeteries, such as the large communal cemetery N East and the elite cemetery N West, as well as the smaller special cemeteries of N T, N G, and N South. The dates for these graves range from Naqada IA (ca. 3,900 BC) to Naqada IIIC1 (ca. 3.060 BC). There are only a few Dynastic cemeteries that range from the Old Kingdom to the New Kingdom, as well as Ptolemaic to Roman. The city is spread over three spurs and the lower area in front of them. The earliest occupation was on Temple Spur, probably dating to Naqada I. Occupation on South Town Spur seems to begin from early Naqada II. This area seems to consist of a palace area, with indications for other areas of activities (including storage facilities and workshops).
The temple area at Nubt has a large amount of research potential, Petrie found evidence of a 4th Dynasty temple, which is overlain by a 12th Dynasty temple, and by an 18th Dynasty temple (in which the names of Thutmose I, Thutmose III, Amenhotep II and Amenhotep III are mentioned). It is probable that all of these kings enhanced and enlarged the Temple of Seth, Lord of Nubt, which appears to have later been appropriated by Ramesses II. The largest ever faience was-Sceptre, dating to the reign of Amenhotep II, was discovered in the Temple of Seth. One of the latest objects is a vase with the name of Sheshonq, indicating that the temple continued to function into at least the Third Intermediate Period, although there is no evidence for Ptolemaic or later use. Also on the Temple Spur is a large multi-period settlement, which in all probability dates back to the earliest graves in the cemeteries. On the surface Old Kingdom beer jars can still be found, along with New Kingdom pottery.
In the desert to the west of the temple four rock-cut tombs belonging to the priests from the Temple of Seth are located, dating to the 18th Dynasty. In front of these tombs is a lot of Roman and Late Antique pottery, along with a few Middle Palaeolithic stone tools.
Another important area is Pyramid Spur, that has the minor step pyramid of Nubt (sometimes identified as Ombos, Tukh, Naqada) located on it. This pyramid was probably built by king Huni at the end of the 3rd Dynasty as part of a series of such structures all around Egypt. This structure desperately needs a lot of conservation as well as protection.
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: I’m going to keep repeating myself until I beat it into your minds that The Nubians are Indigenous to Egypt and have no foreign origin. They originated in Egypt and LATER migrated to Sudan. They don’t claim to be from Sudan or Libya and they get insulted if you call them Sudanese. Here is an article about Nubians being upset at people calling them Sudanese. https://www.tellerreport.com/news/--why-did-the-nubian-youth-forum-in-egypt-get-angry--.BJ3UXW7T7.html
^^ this is the opening post
Here are some excerpts from the article
quote: Why did the Nubian Youth Forum in Egypt get angry?
11/9/2018, 7:53:39 AM
The "Encounter Point" at the World Youth Forum in Sharm el-Sheikh raised the anger of the Nubians in Egypt.
The Nubians / Nubia tribes live on the banks of the Nile River in the north of the Sudan and the southernmost of Egypt for thousands of years.
The Nubians were angry because of the sixth minute of the film, which included a recording of a Nubian family saying "We are Nubians Jain (coming) from Sudan and settled in Aswan Governorate (southern Egypt)."
About 70 public figures have announced their rejection of the Nubia part of the film "Encounter Point" and have asked the forum's organizing committee to apologize for what they considered a "serious mistake" and to delete the scenes from the film.
The websites have been filled with dozens of angry tweets, including a chant to Abdurrahman Al-Omda, who wrote: "Public falsification of the facts in a snapshot of a film presented at the Young People's Congress. We do not write history, history writes us, we are the Nubians and we are still people of language, "No one is able to obliterate our identity, it is not our pride, but history always attests to us."
"The borders of Nubia from the first waterfall to the sixth waterfall, and it was an independent kingdom before the Egyptian civilization for more than 23,000 years, we are not Egyptians and we are not refugees," said Abdullah Sayed.
So the point of view is stated in the last sentence in the above paragraph. He says we (Nubians)are not Egyptians but also not migrants to Egypt, not "refugees" he says Some other Nubians interviewed for the film had said they were from only from Sudan. But this angered other Nubians who said while they were not Egyptians culturally but they were an independent people whose land also included not only along the river in Northern Sudan but also in southern Egypt.
The remark pertains to their ancient land rights that overlaps parts of two nations not culturally identifying as Egyptian.
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
^I assume he means we are not Arab. Since Egypt is called an Arab Republic.
quote: In a quick glance of the development of the representation level of foreign missions to the Arab Republic of Egypt, and representation of Egypt abroad, we can notice that the beginning was before 1914, where diplomatic representation was limited to the level of Deputy or Consul General.
posted
The point is he did not say he was a modern Egyptian or descendant of ancient Egyptians He said "we are the Nubians and we are still people of language".
and he said " "The borders of Nubia from the first waterfall to the sixth waterfall, and it was an independent kingdom before the Egyptian civilization.
________________________
"waterfall"
Although the word “cataracts” is derived from the Greek word for “waterfall,” the region is not, in fact, made up of waterfalls, although there are true ones along the route of the Nile.
He was referencing the six cataracts between Khartoum and Aswan, "Nubia"
what they didn't like was someone who did not include the Egyptian geographical parts along with the parts in Sudan because they want their land rights there also, Nobiin, Kenzi, Midrob etc
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Many Nubians do know they are Egyptians. Some of them have bought into the myth that they are Kushites but I already proved that The Dinka/Nuer are the true Kushites so Regardless of what some Nubians may think. They are not originally from Sudan nor were they ever apart of the historical Kush. It is because of their habit of thinking the term Nubian is synonymous with Kush that they are confused about their own identity. They need to recognize their true identity as Indigenous Egyptians and stop stealing the history of The Dinka/Nuer. They want Northern Sudan to themselves so of course many of them will spread propaganda. The ruling class in Sudan is Nubian so it benefits them to claim Sudan because the quality of life is better for them there.But the fact remains that they are an Egyptian people living in Northern Sudan Not a Sudanese people living in Egypt. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvJ0F299kFQ ^^^^^^^^^^^^ here is a video of Nubian elders acknowledging that they are Indigenous Egyptians and not Kushites.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
| IP: Logged |
-------------------- "Nothing hurts a racist more than the absolute truth and a punch to the face" Posts: 101 | From: United States | Registered: Aug 2020
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: ------------------ Genetic variation and population structure of Sudanese populations as indicated by 15 Identifiler sequence-tagged repeat (STR) loci
Background There is substantial ethnic, cultural and linguistic diversity among the people living in east Africa, Sudan and the Nile Valley. The region around the Nile Valley has a long history of succession of different groups, coupled with demographic and migration events, potentially leading to genetic structure among humans in the region.
Result We report the genotypes of the 15 Identifiler microsatellite markers for 498 individuals from 18 Sudanese populations representing different ethnic and linguistic groups. The combined power of exclusion (PE) was 0.9999981, and the combined match probability was 1 in 7.4 × 1017. The genotype data from the Sudanese populations was combined with previously published genotype data from Egypt, Somalia and the Karamoja population from Uganda. The Somali population was found to be genetically distinct from the other northeast African populations. Individuals from northern Sudan clustered together with those from Egypt, and individuals from southern Sudan clustered with those from the Karamoja population. The *SIMILARITY* of the Nubian and Egyptian populations suggest that migration, **potentially bidirectional**, occurred along the Nile river Valley, which is consistent with the historical evidence for long-term interactions between Egypt and Nubia.
Conclusion We show that despite the levels of population structure in Sudan, standard forensic summary statistics are robust tools for personal identification and parentage analysis in Sudan. Although some patterns of population structure can be revealed with 15 microsatellites, a much larger set of genetic markers is needed to detect fine-scale population structure in east Africa and the Nile Valley. --------------
What are they telling us? That it is hard to distinguish Nubians from Egyptians and other East Africans …using few forensic STRs (ie CODIS). But it is easy to distinguish Europeans from East Africans
So how are Nubian not ethnic?
-------------------- "Nothing hurts a racist more than the absolute truth and a punch to the face" Posts: 101 | From: United States | Registered: Aug 2020
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by HeartofAfrica: Same here...
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: ------------------ Genetic variation and population structure of Sudanese populations as indicated by 15 Identifiler sequence-tagged repeat (STR) loci
Background There is substantial ethnic, cultural and linguistic diversity among the people living in east Africa, Sudan and the Nile Valley. The region around the Nile Valley has a long history of succession of different groups, coupled with demographic and migration events, potentially leading to genetic structure among humans in the region.
Result We report the genotypes of the 15 Identifiler microsatellite markers for 498 individuals from 18 Sudanese populations representing different ethnic and linguistic groups. The combined power of exclusion (PE) was 0.9999981, and the combined match probability was 1 in 7.4 × 1017. The genotype data from the Sudanese populations was combined with previously published genotype data from Egypt, Somalia and the Karamoja population from Uganda. The Somali population was found to be genetically distinct from the other northeast African populations. Individuals from northern Sudan clustered together with those from Egypt, and individuals from southern Sudan clustered with those from the Karamoja population. The *SIMILARITY* of the Nubian and Egyptian populations suggest that migration, **potentially bidirectional**, occurred along the Nile river Valley, which is consistent with the historical evidence for long-term interactions between Egypt and Nubia.
Conclusion We show that despite the levels of population structure in Sudan, standard forensic summary statistics are robust tools for personal identification and parentage analysis in Sudan. Although some patterns of population structure can be revealed with 15 microsatellites, a much larger set of genetic markers is needed to detect fine-scale population structure in east Africa and the Nile Valley. --------------
What are they telling us? That it is hard to distinguish Nubians from Egyptians and other East Africans …using few forensic STRs (ie CODIS). But it is easy to distinguish Europeans from East Africans
So how are Nubian not ethnic?
The point Smirk was trying to get at is that in ancient times there was no "nation state" called "Nubia". Meaning the WORD "Nubia" did not exist before the Medieval period and therefore there could not have been a "Nubian" ethnic group. The closest thing to "Nubia" in ancient Mdu Neter is the term "Nub" which means gold and we know that one of the main centers of predynastic culture was the city named "Nubt" which was named that because it was a gold trading town. There is no way to claim that the people from around Nubt were a different ethnic group than the people a few miles away around Aswan. That is simply nonsense.
Second, since at least the late Old Kingdom, the area between the 1st cataract and 2nd cataract was part of the state of Kemet itself. So those populations would have been citizens and the actual border of the nation has been somehwhere near Wadi Halfa every since the New Kingdom. The statues of Abu Simbel have been a border marker since those times and that is how the modern border of Egypt was created.
Lastly, the modern people called "Nubians" who live around Aswan were never given citizenship in Egypt by the Arab government until recently. And by geography they are indeed citizens of the modern Egyptian state as there has never been a nation state on the Nile called "Nubia". This is the part that Smirk is referencing in his original post. They are rejecting the Arab governments segregation of Egypt and exclusion of these people from citizenship, AS AFRICANS, not just Nubians. Keep in mind that the modern concept of "Nubian" is simply a synonym for black Africans. Of course they would be upset of someone said they weren't "Egyptian". But then again the main distinction that exists today between "Nubians" and the governments of both Egypt and Sudan is that they reject Arab identity and represent the indigenous culture of the Nile prior to Arab conquest. That does not make them an ancient nation state called "Nubia" because Arabs didn't exist in the ancient Nile Valley and Africans were the dominant ethnic groups.
Make no mistake the Arabs of Egypt and the Europeans who support them see "Nubians" as a racial group not simply an ethnic group. And this is because Europeans would love to have everyone to believe that North Africa was never populated by black Africans going back to ancient times. We all know this is nonsense, but these Europeans love using Arab states in North Africa as "proxies" for an ancient apartheid state in North Africa which we all SHOULD know never existed.
The biggest issue between the "Nubians" of Aswan and the Egyptian government is how they were displaced from their homes to create the Nasser High Dam. They have never been properly compensated for this and were displaced and mistreated as a result
Also, as far as Ethnic identity goes, the so-called "Nubians" of Southern Egypt and Norther Sudan are NOT the same people as the Beja/Hadendoa or the Nuba people further South. These are distinct ethnic groups on the Nile Valley. They do not consider themselves as "Nubian" people. Because again there has never ever been a nation state called "Nubia" in the Nile Valley, ever.
quote:Nubians have lived in Egypt for thousands of years. In the 20th century, they were displaced four times because of the building of dams along the Nile. Forced displacement combined with pan-Arabism and the suppression of their language — not a single school or university in Egypt teaches the Nubian language — have contributed to their marginalization.
For Nubian youths who came of age in a time of revolution, their marginalization is no longer acceptable. They succeeded in gaining Nubian representation in the drafting process of Egypt’s current 2014 constitution. Because of their efforts, and for the first time in modern Egyptian history, Nubia is recognized in the constitution. Even more significant is Article 236, which gives Nubians the “right to return” to some of the land from which they were displaced. Now they are asking for their rights to exist in reality, not just on paper.
quote:Originally posted by HeartofAfrica: Same here...
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: ------------------ Genetic variation and population structure of Sudanese populations as indicated by 15 Identifiler sequence-tagged repeat (STR) loci
Background There is substantial ethnic, cultural and linguistic diversity among the people living in east Africa, Sudan and the Nile Valley. The region around the Nile Valley has a long history of succession of different groups, coupled with demographic and migration events, potentially leading to genetic structure among humans in the region.
Result We report the genotypes of the 15 Identifiler microsatellite markers for 498 individuals from 18 Sudanese populations representing different ethnic and linguistic groups. The combined power of exclusion (PE) was 0.9999981, and the combined match probability was 1 in 7.4 × 1017. The genotype data from the Sudanese populations was combined with previously published genotype data from Egypt, Somalia and the Karamoja population from Uganda. The Somali population was found to be genetically distinct from the other northeast African populations. Individuals from northern Sudan clustered together with those from Egypt, and individuals from southern Sudan clustered with those from the Karamoja population. The *SIMILARITY* of the Nubian and Egyptian populations suggest that migration, **potentially bidirectional**, occurred along the Nile river Valley, which is consistent with the historical evidence for long-term interactions between Egypt and Nubia.
Conclusion We show that despite the levels of population structure in Sudan, standard forensic summary statistics are robust tools for personal identification and parentage analysis in Sudan. Although some patterns of population structure can be revealed with 15 microsatellites, a much larger set of genetic markers is needed to detect fine-scale population structure in east Africa and the Nile Valley. --------------
What are they telling us? That it is hard to distinguish Nubians from Egyptians and other East Africans …using few forensic STRs (ie CODIS). But it is easy to distinguish Europeans from East Africans
So how are Nubian not ethnic?
The point Smirk was trying to get at is that in ancient times there was no "nation state" called "Nubia". Meaning the WORD "Nubia" did not exist before the Medieval period and therefore there could not have been a "Nubian" ethnic group. The closest thing to "Nubia" in ancient Mdu Neter is the term "Nub" which means gold and we know that one of the main centers of predynastic culture was the city named "Nubt" which was named that because it was a gold trading town. There is no way to claim that the people from around Nubt were a different ethnic group than the people a few miles away around Aswan. That is simply nonsense.
Second, since at least the late Old Kingdom, the area between the 1st cataract and 2nd cataract was part of the state of Kemet itself. So those populations would have been citizens and the actual border of the nation has been somehwhere near Wadi Halfa every since the New Kingdom. The statues of Abu Simbel have been a border marker since those times and that is how the modern border of Egypt was created.
Lastly, the modern people called "Nubians" who live around Aswan were never given citizenship in Egypt by the Arab government until recently. And by geography they are indeed citizens of the modern Egyptian state as there has never been a nation state on the Nile called "Nubia". This is the part that Smirk is referencing in his original post. They are rejecting the Arab governments segregation of Egypt and exclusion of these people from citizenship, AS AFRICANS, not just Nubians. Keep in mind that the modern concept of "Nubian" is simply a synonym for black Africans. Of course they would be upset of someone said they weren't "Egyptian". But then again the main distinction that exists today between "Nubians" and the governments of both Egypt and Sudan is that they reject Arab identity and represent the indigenous culture of the Nile prior to Arab conquest. That does not make them an ancient nation state called "Nubia" because Arabs didn't exist in the ancient Nile Valley and Africans were the dominant ethnic groups.
Make no mistake the Arabs of Egypt and the Europeans who support them see "Nubians" as a racial group not simply an ethnic group. And this is because Europeans would love to have everyone to believe that North Africa was never populated by black Africans going back to ancient times. We all know this is nonsense, but these Europeans love using Arab states in North Africa as "proxies" for an ancient apartheid state in North Africa which we all SHOULD know never existed.
The biggest issue between the "Nubians" of Aswan and the Egyptian government is how they were displaced from their homes to create the Nasser High Dam. They have never been properly compensated for this and were displaced and mistreated as a result
Also, as far as Ethnic identity goes, the so-called "Nubians" of Southern Egypt and Norther Sudan are NOT the same people as the Beja/Hadendoa or the Nuba people further South. These are distinct ethnic groups on the Nile Valley. They do not consider themselves as "Nubian" people. Because again there has never ever been a nation state called "Nubia" in the Nile Valley, ever.
quote:Nubians have lived in Egypt for thousands of years. In the 20th century, they were displaced four times because of the building of dams along the Nile. Forced displacement combined with pan-Arabism and the suppression of their language — not a single school or university in Egypt teaches the Nubian language — have contributed to their marginalization.
For Nubian youths who came of age in a time of revolution, their marginalization is no longer acceptable. They succeeded in gaining Nubian representation in the drafting process of Egypt’s current 2014 constitution. Because of their efforts, and for the first time in modern Egyptian history, Nubia is recognized in the constitution. Even more significant is Article 236, which gives Nubians the “right to return” to some of the land from which they were displaced. Now they are asking for their rights to exist in reality, not just on paper.
-------------------- "Nothing hurts a racist more than the absolute truth and a punch to the face" Posts: 101 | From: United States | Registered: Aug 2020
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Ase, the funny thing is that Nubt of the first nome was NOT a proto-state at all. It was just one town. The actual proto-state of the Setiu was the region SOUTH of Aswan. What's more is that the town of Nubt was never really important in the 1st nome. The actual capital of the 1st nome was Yebu (modern Elephantine) which was an island near the 1st Cataract and the trade port into NUBIA to the south!!
The guy keeps tossing the word Aswan but does not realize that Nubians are NOT from there but SOUTH of Aswan in the areas now flooded by the dam.
^ Before the building of the Dam, Egyptian Nubia or Lower Nubia was a narrow valley and the Nubians who lived there had to move because their homes were going to be flooded. Those further south crossed the border into Sudanese Nubia while others fled north into Aswan or other areas further north. The right of return was for those Nubians who fled into Sudan and the government says they can even return to Lower Nubia and rebuild their homes around Lake Nasser!
Even the famous temple of Abu Simbel originally closer to the flood plain had to be moved further away from the river to be saved!
And again modern Nubians are NOT the same as the predynastic Setiu. They are removed by thousands of years. Do modern Nubians have ancestry to the Setiu? Yes that is likely, but today linguistically and culturally they have more in common with the Toubou people of Libya than with ancient Egypt! This is like saying modern Macedonians who speak Slavic language are the same as Bronze Age Macedonians. The moderns may have ancestry from the former but they are obviously not the same.
Could you please provide sources and materials affirming that the Nubians of Sudan and Egypt are descendants of migrants from somewhere around Libya or Darfur.
I would truly appreciate this.
I did additional research and I came upon material saying that the Nubae extended as far as the Kharga Oasis -- an area that is essentially in the same latitude as Luxor only that it's to the West.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: Could you please provide sources and materials affirming that the Nubians of Sudan and Egypt are descendants of migrants from somewhere around Libya or Darfur.
I would truly appreciate this.
I did additional research and I came upon material saying that the Nubae extended as far as the Kharga Oasis -- an area that is essentially in the same latitude as Luxor only that it's to the West.
Sorry for the very late response. A large consensus among scholars is that modern Nubian language and culture is derived from the Nobatae people who archaeologically are known as the 'X-Group'. Most sources admit it is unclear where the X-Group/Nobatae originated. The only historical documents on this issue come from the Byzantine historian Procopius.
Here is just one source: The Cambridge History of Africa: Vol. 2 c. 500 BC-AD 1050 Since two exotic groups are known from Classical writers to have been in the area at the appropriate time, the Nobatae and the Blemmyes, there has been much argument as to which of these two peoples was responsible for the changes, and which of one of them is represented not only in the rich burials of Ballana and in the rather less elaborate ones at Qasr Ibrim, Gemai, and Firka (perhaps the burial places of local chiefly families), but also in the large numbers of commoners' graves throughout Lower Nubia. The Blemmyes seem to have been firmly identified as the ancestors of the Beja; the origin of the Nobatae is less clear. Procopius, writing in the sixth century AD, says they came from the western oases, and were invited by Diocletian to fill the gap left by the withdrawal of the Roman garrison and to act as a buffer between the Blemmyes and the frontier of Egypt. The great deal of extra information from skeletal analysis now available makes it certain that there was no large-scale movement by a people of a different physical type. Whether the same is true of their rulers is not possible to say, since the skeletal remains were not well preserved nor studied in detail. Today the majority view is that there was no massive immigration, and not only the skeletons but also the cultural material argue strongly in favor of such a view. It is possible that small, well-armed horse and camel-riding military groups from outside established leadership over the indigenous population. If this is were so, then these are presumably the Nobatae, and Procopius's story could well imply this was the nature of the Nobataean immigration.
So if there was a cultural or linguistic change it wasn't due to any large scale immigration though perhaps a migration on much smaller scale occurred leading to a ruling elite and thus cultural superstratification. In fact there's a growing consensus that Meroitic language was Cushitic or in the very least Afrisian whereas the modern Nubian language that replaced it is Nilo-Saharan though modern Nubian language especially Kanuzi dialect does show an Afrisian substratum as this one paper shows. Not to mention the fact that I addressed in another thread here how the Daza/Tobou of Libya are in fact genetically continuous with modern Nubians only that the latter has additional genetic signatures associated with the Nile Valley and Eurasian admixture.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic