quote:Originally posted by Smnine-two: You keep noting The Nubians mixture with Eurasians while ignoring Their Cluster with Beja and Ethiopians who are much more ancient than Eurasians. Yes I am linking The Dinka/Nuer with The Ancient Kushites based on their word for people which is Koch/Koc/Kas. The word designates people. I'm also basing it on how Taharqa himself was depicted with that same Gaar scarification mark that is very popular amongst The Nuer today. The AE also depicted The Kushites with those same cow urine hair dyes like The Dinka/Nuer today. The Ancient Kushites were depicted as Cattle-herders exactly like The Dinka/Nuer. The Nubians are not Cattle-Herders and carry none of these cultural elements. Yes I do acknowledge that The Ancestors of The AE(Badarians) were a mixture of Afro-Asiatic and Nilo-Saharan though The Afro-Asiatic element was more dominant. You keep thinking Afro-Asiatic is synonymous with Eurasian when it is not. The Afro-Asiatic ancestors of The AE were Beja and Cushitic speakers from The Ethiopian highlands not Eurasians. The Nilotic ancestors of The AE were Dinka/Nuer. The Nubians today are descendants of These mixed Afro-Asiatic/Nilo-Saharan Egyptians and like you said their mixture with Eurasians did not occur until 700 years ago.
I think I'll leave you to your position, mate. Also,where have I linked Afro-Asiatic with Eurasians? I've been crystal clear that the original Afro-Asiatics were indigenous Africans in Sudan-Egypt; their Y-DNA was Em-78 and most of their mtdna was mostly L3, L3K and M1. Some Eurasian mtdna must have been in the mix.
I already corrected you on there being no Kas in the Dinka language. The Kushites were likely Nilotic and so were the Noubades - the African ancestors of modern Nubians -- as the genetic evidence has shown. Lower "Nubians" in Southern Egypt were closely related to the Upper Egyptians but the Nubians in Southern Egypt today are not identical to the ones of old.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
The original Afro-Asiatics were like The Cushitic speakers of today and The Nubians cluster with these people more so than Nilo-Saharans. The AE were also Afro-Asiatic with some Nilo-Saharan mixture. Who The Nubians are is evident in their name. A Nubian is simply one belonging to or being from Nub. While The AE only used this term to refer to The God Set and not a Human. It is still proof that they recognized that someone from that city would be called a Nubti. Note the “ian” and “i” are both suffixes that designated belonging to so The word NubIAN and NubtI both have the same meaning.
Posts: 39 | From: New York | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Smnine-two: The original Afro-Asiatics were like The Cushitic speakers of today and The Nubians cluster with these people more so than Nilo-Saharans. The AE were also Afro-Asiatic with some Nilo-Saharan mixture. Who The Nubians are is evident in their name. A Nubian is simply one belonging to or being from Nub. While The AE only used this term to refer to The God Set and not a Human. It is still proof that they recognized that someone from that city would be called a Nubti. Note the “ian” and “i” are both suffixes that designated belonging to so The word NubIAN and NubtI both have the same meaning.
So the ancient Egyptians were 40% Eurasian, right? Modern "Cushitic" populations in the Horn have that genetic profile.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
^^^^^^^^^^^^ The Kushites in that scene are presenting Nub(Gold). Nowhere in That Glyph are They referring to those presenters as Nubians.
Posts: 39 | From: New York | Registered: Mar 2020
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posted
You just got done arguing with me about how The AE never used the word Nub for a people but when I showed you evidence that they did use the term for The God Set you didn’t think it meant anything . Now you’re trying to prove they did use the term for foreigners? SMH you’re shooting yourself in the foot. Nowhere in that Hieroglyph does it call those people Nub. They are presenting Nub(Gold) to The Pharaoh.
Posts: 39 | From: New York | Registered: Mar 2020
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Again The Ancient Egyptian word for gold was Nub/Nb/Nbw. There were two cities with this same exact name. There exists today an Indigenous people in Egypt called Nubians. END OF DISCUSSION.
Posts: 39 | From: New York | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Smnine-two: The original Afro-Asiatics were like The Cushitic speakers of today and The Nubians cluster with these people more so than Nilo-Saharans. The AE were also Afro-Asiatic with some Nilo-Saharan mixture. Who The Nubians are is evident in their name. A Nubian is simply one belonging to or being from Nub. While The AE only used this term to refer to The God Set and not a Human. It is still proof that they recognized that someone from that city would be called a Nubti. Note the “ian” and “i” are both suffixes that designated belonging to so The word NubIAN and NubtI both have the same meaning.
So the ancient Egyptians were 40% Eurasian, right? Modern "Cushitic" populations in the Horn have that genetic profile.
That still doesn’t make The AE Eurasians.
Posts: 39 | From: New York | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Again the Egyptians did not refer to a group of people as Nub or Nubti or Nubian
adding "ian" to Nub is a latin concept not Egyptian
end of discussion
The Egyptians added an “I” to Nubt genius. It’s the same concept. So according to you’re logic naming a people after a town or city was invented by Latins?. Stop giving The Greco-Romans so much credit. Much of their accounts of history no longer hold any water in academic circles.
Posts: 39 | From: New York | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Again the Egyptians did not refer to a group of people as Nub or Nubti or Nubian
adding "ian" to Nub is a latin concept not Egyptian
end of discussion
The Egyptians added an “I” to Nubt genius. It’s the same concept. So according to you’re logic naming a people after a town or city was invented by Latins?. Stop giving The Greco-Romans so much credit. Much of their accounts of history no longer hold any water in academic circles.
Again the Egyptians did not refer to a group of people as Nub or Nubti or Nubian
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Ok lets say hypothetically speaking that's true. It still doesn't deny the fact that the term Nubian does derive from Nub. It still doesn't deny the fact that The word exists in The AE language. It still doesn't deny the fact that there were two gold rich city in AE called Nubt. It still doesn't deny that The Nubians are Indigenous to Egypt. So you can argue that they didn't use the term to refer to people but you cant argue against the existence of the term in AE because the evidence is in the language and history of Egypt.
Posts: 39 | From: New York | Registered: Mar 2020
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Example: The Romans didn't refer to the people of Milan as Milanians yet that doesn't change the fact thata someone from Milan would be called a Milanian. The same goes for The Nubians and Nubt.
Posts: 39 | From: New York | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Smnine-two: Ok lets say hypothetically speaking that's true. It still doesn't deny the fact that the term Nubian does derive from Nub. It still doesn't deny the fact that The word exists in The AE language. It still doesn't deny the fact that there were two gold rich city in AE called Nubt. It still doesn't deny that The Nubians are Indigenous to Egypt. So you can argue that they didn't use the term to refer to people but you cant argue against the existence of the term in AE because the evidence is in the language and history of Egypt.
Again the Egyptians did not refer to a group of people as Nub or Nubti or Nubian
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
I like how you circled around what I said. I actually agreed with you're premise that The Egyptians didn't use it as an ethnic term. I said that they did use the term with a suffix to refer to a God belonging to this particular city. So while they didn't use this term for people they still applied a suffix when describing someone or something that belonged to that city. You can keep sarcastically repeating yourself all you want but you've proved absolutely nothing. What's ironic is after repeating yourself so many times you went and posted a picture of Kushites brining Gold(Nub) to a Pharaoh as an argument against me to somehow prove that The Egyptians somehow associated Gold with foreigners. You're mind is all over the place.
Posts: 39 | From: New York | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Smnine-two: You keep noting The Nubians mixture with Eurasians while ignoring Their Cluster with Beja and Ethiopians who are much more ancient than Eurasians. Yes I am linking The Dinka/Nuer with The Ancient Kushites based on their word for people which is Koch/Koc/Kas. The word designates people. I'm also basing it on how Taharqa himself was depicted with that same Gaar scarification mark that is very popular amongst The Nuer today. The AE also depicted The Kushites with those same cow urine hair dyes like The Dinka/Nuer today. The Ancient Kushites were depicted as Cattle-herders exactly like The Dinka/Nuer. The Nubians are not Cattle-Herders and carry none of these cultural elements. Yes I do acknowledge that The Ancestors of The AE(Badarians) were a mixture of Afro-Asiatic and Nilo-Saharan though The Afro-Asiatic element was more dominant. You keep thinking Afro-Asiatic is synonymous with Eurasian when it is not. The Afro-Asiatic ancestors of The AE were Beja and Cushitic speakers from The Ethiopian highlands not Eurasians. The Nilotic ancestors of The AE were Dinka/Nuer. The Nubians today are descendants of These mixed Afro-Asiatic/Nilo-Saharan Egyptians and like you said their mixture with Eurasians did not occur until 700 years ago.
I think I'll leave you to your position, mate. Also,where have I linked Afro-Asiatic with Eurasians? I've been crystal clear that the original Afro-Asiatics were indigenous Africans in Sudan-Egypt; their Y-DNA was Em-78 and most of their mtdna was mostly L3, L3K and M1. Some Eurasian mtdna must have been in the mix.
I already corrected you on there being no Kas in the Dinka language. The Kushites were likely Nilotic and so were the Noubades - the African ancestors of modern Nubians -- as the genetic evidence has shown. Lower "Nubians" in Southern Egypt were closely related to the Upper Egyptians but the Nubians in Southern Egypt today are not identical to the ones of old.
The Dinka word for people is Koch but some dictionaries spell it as Koc or Kas. Regardless of how it is spelled. It is the same word The Egyptians used for The Kushites which was Kosh/Kash/Ksh. This is because The Dinka are THE! Kushites!. The true name of The Nuer people is NAATH/NATH which is where the term Nehesi/Nhs originates from. The Nubians carry none of these names because they are Egyptians not Kushites.
Posts: 39 | From: New York | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Smnine-two: [QB] I like how you circled around what I said. I actually agreed with you're premise that The Egyptians didn't use it as an ethnic term. I said that they did use the term with a suffix to refer to a God belonging to this particular city.
They used the term to refer to a deity, It doesn't matter because the Egyptians did not refer to a group of people as Nub or Nubti or Nubian
so you have no argument
It's very simple
the Egyptians did not refer to a group of people as Nub or Nubti or Nubian
They used the term to refer to a deity, It doesn't matter because the Egyptians did not refer to a group of people as Nub or Nubti or Nubian
so you have no evidence, calling Set Nubti is not evidence the Egyptians refer to a group of people as Nubti
They have many texts referring to various groups of people inscribed on stone walls but none referring to a group of people as Nubti
additionally people called "Nubians" today, a latinized version of the word do not even call themselves Nubti or Nubts
get it now? Or do we have to go over this another thousand times?
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Smnine-two: [QB] I like how you circled around what I said. I actually agreed with you're premise that The Egyptians didn't use it as an ethnic term. I said that they did use the term with a suffix to refer to a God belonging to this particular city.
They used the term to refer to a deity, It doesn't matter because the Egyptians did not refer to a group of people as Nub or Nubti or Nubian
so you have no argument
It's very simple
the Egyptians did not refer to a group of people as Nub or Nubti or Nubian
They used the term to refer to a deity, It doesn't matter because the Egyptians did not refer to a group of people as Nub or Nubti or Nubian
so you have no evidence
It doesn't matter to who? You?????. They referred to something as a Nubti period. be it a God an animal a plant a person ETC. IT DOES MATTER! because The Egyptians used the term with a suffix. I do have evidence because I'm showing how the term was used in The Egyptian language. You're just manipulating the term into having no meaning or significance and writing off its usage to be vague. You're not actually proving anything I'm saying is wrong. As I said you're trying to complexify something very simple.
Posts: 39 | From: New York | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Smnine-two: [QB] I like how you circled around what I said. I actually agreed with you're premise that The Egyptians didn't use it as an ethnic term. I said that they did use the term with a suffix to refer to a God belonging to this particular city.
They used the term to refer to a deity, It doesn't matter because the Egyptians did not refer to a group of people as Nub or Nubti or Nubian
so you have no argument
It's very simple
the Egyptians did not refer to a group of people as Nub or Nubti or Nubian
They used the term to refer to a deity, It doesn't matter because the Egyptians did not refer to a group of people as Nub or Nubti or Nubian
so you have no evidence
It doesn't matter to who? You?????. They referred to something as a Nubti period. be it a God an animal a plant a person ETC. IT DOES MATTER! because The Egyptians used the term with a suffix. I do have evidence because I'm showing how the term was used in The Egyptian language. You're just manipulating the term into having no meaning or significance and writing off its usage to be vague. You're not actually proving anything I'm saying is wrong. As I said you're trying to complexify something very simple.
yes, it's very simple, the Egyptians did not refer to a group of people as Nub or Nubti or Nubian
therefore you have no proof people called "Nubians" today were from Nubt
additional they don't even call themselves Nubt or Nubti
Let us know when when you have proof that modern day Nubians came from one of the cities called Nubt
Do you know what proof is? Do you know what Egyptian texts are?
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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1. The Egyptian word for gold is Nub/Nb/Nbw.
2. There existed two cities in Ancient Egypt called Nubt which referenced richness in Gold.
3. There exists today an Indigenous Egyptian people called Nubians granted a right to return though it has not fully carried through yet. A right to return can only legally be granted to an Indigenous population.
4. Most Egyptologists agree that the term Nubian is Egyptian in origin.
5. The Nubian elders and scholars in Southern Egypt do not speak of or acknowledge a Roman era migration. There are tribes all over Africa with Myths of originating from The Nile Valley and The Levant with absolutely zero archeological evidence. Migration Myths are a huge part of Mythology and folklore. Just because you see some Greco-Roman document that speaks of a migration does not make it true since The Greco-Romans themselves were heavily invested in Mythological accounts of history and people.
I'm Done.
Posts: 39 | From: New York | Registered: Mar 2020
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
The countries and rulers' names are right here very clear. Tell us what the primary document says they are, or kweikwai. This isn't up for debate it's a matter of facts easily supported. And no, they aren't Kushi, once you translate i'll post the map.
posted
Here we can clearly identify Taharqa as a Nuer/Naath due to his Nuer Gaar Tribal Scarification marks on his forehed. The 25th Dynasty was Nuer not Nubian. Nubians have nothing to do with Ancient Kush/Nehesi. Kush/Nehesi is Dinka/Nuer history.
Posts: 39 | From: New York | Registered: Mar 2020
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
This poster has no interest in learning and sharing replicable knowledge. This poster's interest is in ramming personal propaganda down readers throats.
Else
Quit dancing. Translate the primary document as asked. This poster's Pictionary identification is wrong wrong wrong as the names and kingdoms written in the primary AE document by Huy prove beyond shadow of doubt.
quote:The countries and rulers' names are right here very clear. Tell us what the primary document says they are, or kweikwai. This isn't up for debate it's a matter of facts easily supported. And no, they aren't Kushi, once you translate i'll post the map.
quote:Originally posted by Smnine-two: The Nubians do not genetically cluster with Nilo-Saharans period...
Nilo-Saharans are members of a linguistic group NOT a genetic group! Nubians ARE Nilo-Saharans because of their language and culture, moron! This is like saying Indo-European Sinhalese of Sri-Lanka don't genetically cluster with Indo-European Swedes, that doesn't change the fact that they're both Indo-Europeans because of their languages!
quote:..The Toubou do cluster with other Nilo-Saharans...
Yeah, those in adjacent areas like the Kanuri first and then the Nubians!!
quote:...Even The Nubian poster here stated that he and his people do not cluster with The Toubou...
Relying on the claims of an alleged Nubian is a logical fallacy known as 'Appeal to Biased Authority'. Just because he's Nubian does not mean what he's saying is true or accurate. I prefer to rely on actual genetic studies like this:
quote:If you are going to claim they originate from Noba Nomads then show me a present day living breathing population of Noba Nomads in The Western Desert?. You can't because no such group of people exists.
Of course they don't exist anymore, dufus because they left the Western Desert to settle the Nile Valley!! They intermarried with the locals to produce the modern Nubians today! But the Noba as a people did exist during the late Roman period. Their immigration to Nubia and establishment of the Medieval kingdoms was well documented both by the Romans and the native Egyptians themselves!
quote:Yes The Nubians being sedentary people negates them being a Nomadic people. You can't be sedentary and Nomadic at the same time...
Again how do modern Nubians being sedentary negate the fact that their Noba ancestors were not?!! What part of the Noba nomads immigrating to the Nile Valley and settling there and intermarrying with locals to produce modern Nubians do you not understand??
quote:Also if The Nubians were ever Nomadic then you would find them in multiple countries but you don't. The only places on earth where you will find Nubians is Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan. Their migration into Northern Sudan does not make them Nomads because both Nubts were in proximity to The Eastern Desert.
You just contradicted yourself nitwit, as Egypt and Sudan are multiple countries and not one country. Actually they lived in a specific region before the establishment of both countries and modern Nubians have nothing to do with ancient Nubt!!
quote:The Blemmyes you speak of are The Beja today and they originated in The Eastern Desert like The Medjay because they are the same people and a Nomadic people like The Ancient Medjay. Their land was called Medja. Their very name Beja is a derivative of Medjay. Bej-Medj you can clearly hear the name Beja in the name Medjay.
The Blemmyes were first mentioned during late Roman times along with the Noba. There is no evidence they were the same as the dynastic Medjay though there is strong evidence linking the Blemmyes with modern Beja. Again, just because all these peoples inhabited the same region does not mean they were one and the same!
quote:The Greeks and Romans cannot be used as a primary source because many of their texts contradict each other and are laden with Superstitions and Mythologies.
Historical documents are different from myths and legends and I just cited a source showing that even native Egyptians made note of the Noba invasion.
quote:You yourself said Diodorus claim of Egypt being a colony lead by Osiris was Mythological so how can you continue to use them as a primary source?.
First of all, this claim by Diodorus was a legend that took place during predynastic times before the Greeks even had writing. What the hell does this have to do with the well recorded documents of the Noba immigration during the Roman period?!!
quote:The Greeks and Romans were the inventors of Fake News. This is why Herodotus is referred to by many modern scholars as ''The father of Lies''.
Greeks and Romans are two different peoples so how you synonmize the two is beyond me, I just told you the difference between myths and legends vs. historical records, and Herodotus was actually proven to be right in many of his reports while certain things remained inaccurate that didn't make him an out right liar as all of that was discussed in this forum here! But again, what does any of this have to do with the historical facts of the Noba immigration??
quote:At the end of the day the fact remains that the term NUB/NB/NBW existed in The Egyptian language as a word for Gold and there were two cities in Egypt with this name and this term predates any Greco-Roman usage of it by at least 3,500 years.
Yeah this is the ONLY you posted so far that holds true, too bad it has NOTHING to do with the Noba being ancestors of modern Nubians and the rest of what you say is nonsensical crap!
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Why ban him when I and others can simply correct him i.e. give him a thorough beating with the facts??
wasn't me but he was banned earlier as Smirk92 for having about 10 threads on the nearly the same topic
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
^ I didn't say it was you but just asked the general question. The funny thing is that we've had worse trolls in this forum before. As long as the guy sticks to a thread and not jump to another I don't see what the problem is.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
He did make a thread- "I'm leaving" post and said:
"I have nothing more to contribute. I’ve came to the conclusion that this forum is just a Masonic front for both Eurocentrics and Afrocentrics to argue. Bye" ______________________
Also this is yet another topic when he could have continued on pre-existing posts, many of his on virtually the same topic. He won't listen it's pointless
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
We got something now we didn't have then. Ppl w/real Owner/Admin power. If we had that back then we'd a had no trolls.
Do you like ppl playin around with your ppl's histories and cultures to the point non involved observers don't know what's the real authentic Pinoyana?
But sho u right. Hahaha remember that monty python blk knight meme? where the B K is whittled down to a head and torso yet still thinks and claims to be the winner.
And yeah when a fool and an intelligenti argue which one is really the fool to the onlooker?
posted
Regardless of whether the troll or any troll is present or not, this thread is an excellent topic for educating folks about the difference between physical populations and language/culture.
Nilo-Saharan is a language phylum and the very name itself describes its native extant range-- the Nile Valley and the Sahara desert. Surely in such a vast area is there going to be genetic heterogeneity among its speakers which was discussed multiple times before.
We know that during the Holocene North Africa experienced a wet period in which there was no Sahara and the region that we know as desert today was much more densely populated than now.
We hypothesize that the differences in animal resources between the northern and southern Sahara during the early Holocene influenced the way it was peopled by humans. The north–south contrast in Saharan species ranges are remarkably similar to some key lithic, bone tool, and linguistic spatial distributions, suggesting that the peopling of the region during the early Holocene humid phase was driven by cultural adaptations that allowed exploitation of specific fauna.
The early Holocene archaeology of the Sahara is characterized by a regional distribution of specific archaeological cultures, such as those defined by barbed bone points, fishhooks, Ounanian arrow-points, and, more controversially, pottery (32, 35–38). The Sahara today is largely populated by speakers of Afroasiatic languages, Berber and Arabic, with some Nilo-Saharan languages (Teda-Daza and Zaghawa) in the region of Northern Chad, and Songhay cluster languages scattered across Mali and Niger (Fig. 3). However, it is clear that this situation is recent; Berber-speaking Tuareg moved into the Central Sahara ∼1500 y ago and the spread of the Hassaniya Moors into Mauritania probably dates from the 15th Century (39). Before this time, the central and southern Sahara are thought to have been populated by Nilo-Saharan speakers. The Nilo-Saharan language phylum is both widespread and strongly internally divided, suggesting considerable antiquity (40) (Fig. 3). Its greatest diversity is in the east, where a large number of small branches are found (Fig. 3), suggesting the original locus of expansion. Although fragmented into enclave populations today, the presence and pattern of relic populations in the northern desert points strongly to a much wider distribution in the past, covering the region from the Ethio-Sudan borderland to Mauritania and southwest Morocco.
Sahara palaeohydrology overlaid with the spatial distribution of Ounanian and barbed bone points and Nilo-Saharan languages. The languages marked as “other” are too small to be depicted as separate colors; they are Nyimang, Temein, Hill Nubian, Daju, Berta, and Gumuz. Note the similarity between the distribution of barbed bone points and the distribution of species that require deep water (Fig. 2B and SI Appendix, Figs. S12 and S13). It has long been suggested that Nilo-Saharan languages might correlate with barbed bone points, the so-called “Aqualithic” (35). Fig. 3 superimposes the sites of known barbed bone points on a map of current Nilo-Saharan languages, showing a remarkable similarity in spatial distribution, and also a notable correspondence with Holocene distribution of large aquatic species (e.g., Fig. 2A and SI Appendix, Fig. S12). It appears that the expansion of aquatic resources in the Holocene made the Sahara attractive to populations with existing fishing and riverine hunting skills (SI Appendix, Section 6). Their ability to hunt hippopotamus and crocodiles and to catch a wide variety of deepwater fish species would have propelled a rapid dispersal from east to west and into the central Sahara, to judge by the numerous branches of Nilo-Saharan in the east (Fig. 3 and SI Appendix, Section 6). Their movement further north would have been restricted by the absence of many of these species. However, the presence of an isolated Nilo-Saharan population (the Koranje, a branch of Songhay) and a barbed bone point in Northwest Africa near the headwaters of the catchment of the Soura River, the river that links the Atlas mountains to the lakes in the Ahnet-Mouydir basin (Fig. 1), forming a corridor from the central Sahara to Northwest Africa, indicates that a few groups may have traversed the green Sahara using the most promising routes. There is direct linguistic evidence that Nilo-Saharan populations exploited these aquatic resources in the form of a widespread cognate for “hippo” from Gumuz in Ethiopia, to Songhay in Mali (SI Appendix, Table S2). SI Appendix, Table S2 shows similar forms for “crocodile,” although in this case the cognates are split between eastern and western languages.
We hypothesize that the other economic revolution that occurred in the Sahara at approximately the same time was the southward spread of the bow and arrow. North African hunters would have observed the new abundance of large and unfamiliar land mammals to the south, notably elephant and giraffe. In a dispersal inverse to that of the Nilo-Saharans, they would have been attracted southward to hunt these animals with the bow and arrow. The “Ounanian” of Northern Mali, Southern Algeria, Niger, and central Egypt at ca. 10 ka is partly defined by a distinctive type of arrow point (37). These arrowheads are found in much of the northern Sahara (Fig. 3) and are generally considered to have spread from Northwest Africa. This view is supported by the affinity of this industry with the Epipalaeolithic that also appears to have colonized the Sahara from the north (41). No Ounanian points occur in West Africa before 10 ka, suggesting the movement of a technology across the desert from north to south around this time.
Our model envisages the initial Holocene repopulation of the Sahara being carried out by two separate populations practicing two quite different resource exploitation strategies: (i) aquatic foraging using bone point and fish hook technology, and (ii) savanna hunting using the bow and arrow. By linking the distribution of the Nilo-Saharan language phyla to the archaeological distribution of aquatic- and terrestrial-adapted technologies, we explain the pattern of human repopulation of the desert in terms of the changing faunal distribution, which is in turn dictated by the nature of trans-Saharan hydrological linkages.
Of course Nilo-Saharan speakers weren't the only ones in the North African region which explains the genetic heterogeneity due to admixture and/or language adoption, though there apparently remained some genetic continuity as shown in the studies below.
^ Note the main difference between the Toubou and Nubians is that the former has more Atlantic West African, slightly more Central West African, and even more North African alleles than the latter. While the latter has more Middle Eastern, European, and other alleles.
Principal component analysis (PCA) and ADMIXTURE. a First two components of a PCA, percentage of explained variance shown in axis; African samples are grouped in four major genetic ancestries, representative samples of each ancestry are shown with a circle colored with its correspondent main genetic ancestry estimated in b, North Africans and African samples not circled might be heavily admixed according to b; b ADMIXTURE plot for the 25 samples in our dataset; the seven ancestries are named according to individuals that have almost exclusively a given ancestry. The plot for the remaining 705 samples is shown in Additional file 1: Figure S6.3
^ According to the graph above both Toubou and West African Bantu are considered admixed no doubt due to their R1b-V88 lineage which is Eurasian so Toubou are intermediate to West African Bantu and North Africans in the admixture chart.
Interestingly, decades ago before molecular genetics you had anthropological writings on Toubou by Briggs:
A Review of the Physical Anthropology of the Sahara and Its Prehistoric Implications L. Cabot Briggs Man, Vol. 57, Feb., 1957 (Feb., 1957), pp. 20 The Teda
The essentially nomadic and semi-nomadic pastoral bandit Teda have often been supposed to represent the oldest surviving human strain in the Sahara. As far as their outward appearance goes, both metrically and morphologically, they look like half-Hamites, such as the Shilluk and the Dinka, and they speak Sudanic dialects. But their ABO blood-group distributions follow a typically Berber pattern, high in O and very low in B, whereas the Sudanese half-Hamites, as well as Negroes in general , all show high or very high B percentages. Thus the Teda appear to have Berber blood in Negro bodies.
One may suppose that the Teda are descendants of a Berber or proto-Berber population that has become progressively negrified by race mixture, or, following Dixon, they are survivors of an ancient'proto-negroid'that mixed with later invaders belonging to his 'Capsian' (my 'African Mediterranean')type. But the real answer can be found only after extensive studies of the distributions among them of blood groups other than those of the ABO series.
Well now we know that the Teda/Toubou represent rather a proto-Saharan people ancestral to many Nilo-Saharans and even some Berbers and perhaps others.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Regardless of whether the troll or any troll is present or not, this thread is an excellent topic for educating folks about the difference between physical populations and language/culture.
Indeed. What the trolls don’t realize is that all their trolling only opens up yet more platforms and opportunities for real data and scholarship to be put out there. If they had left well enough alone, and played fair, the info would have remained buried in obscure academic journals and books. Now it is all over the Net, with a community of active students and analysts commenting and discussing- thus undermining and debunking all the bogus claims they are trying to troll. Same thing with the Wikipedia trolls. By constantly removing valid scholarship, they have only motivated people to start publishing the scholarship far and wide online, on multiple platforms, defeating all the bogus "stealth" edits and "admin" sandbagging by the lamers.. lol.
A Review of the Physical Anthropology of the Sahara and Its Prehistoric Implications L. Cabot Briggs Man, Vol. 57, Feb., 1957 (Feb., 1957), pp. 20
The Teda The essentially nomadic and semi-nomadic pastoral bandit Teda have often been supposed to represent the oldest surviving human strain in the Sahara. As far as their outward appearance goes, both metrically and morphologically, they look like half-Hamites, such as the Shilluk and the Dinka, and they speak Sudanic dialects. But their ABO blood-group distributions follow a typically Berber pattern, high in O and very low in B, whereas the Sudanese half-Hamites, as well as Negroes in general , all show high or very high B percentages. Thus the Teda appear to have Berber blood in Negro bodies.
One may suppose that the Teda are descendants of a Berber or proto-Berber population that has become progressively negrified by race mixture, or, following Dixon, they are survivors of an ancient'proto-negroid'that mixed with later invaders belonging to his 'Capsian' (my 'African Mediterranean')type. But the real answer can be found only after extensive studies of the distributions among them of blood groups other than those of the ABO series.
^^A classic reference, with all the conventions of its day, including “half-Hamites” who became “nigrified” and so on lol.. In one of his articles Keita chortles at “Berber blood in Negro bodies”.. lol But yes, they May well form one of the foundational populations of the Nilo-Saharan zone. The Sahara itself is an immensely interesting area- a motor of Africa’s evolution as Kruper or Krolein 2008 show, and also a “Pan African” entity straddling the continent with zones of transition, and shifting peoples and admixtures over the millennia. This complexity undermines assorted BS claims and constructs such as the eternal “true negro” in static “sub Saharan” locales. Some of these constructs including the obsolete “Hamite” variants are alive and well in the bogus propaganda mills of the “alt” web.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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That's the reason why I like to cite old sources. Even though they're old they are not necessarily outdated, and even if they are, there are a few grains of salt that still hold relevance.
In the case of Briggs, while he was wrong about racial typology his findings on blood groupings was still true and when you put it together with latest DNA findings it paints a better picture of ancient North African populations. Speaking of which I forgot to mention that ironically while Briggs and other experts of his time identify high B and low O with "negroes", that same frequency is not only found among the Haratin but according to the findings of the 1973 G. Paoli research also among early dynastic Egyptians! Even today, many modern Egyptians have a significant frequency of type B blood, especially in the oases areas which contradicts the popular claim of Egyptians having close blood ties to Berbers whereas the Toubou do have such blood ties to the Berber. How ironic! In fact, this reminds me of the Karim Kamel et al. 1965 study ‘ABO blood groups and hemoglobin variants among Nubians, Egypt, U.A.R.’: Three hundred and fifty‐six Nubians of Upper Egypt were tested for hemoglobin variants and ABO blood groups. No hemoglobin variants were detected. ABO allele frequencies for the Konouz are: A 19.31, B 11.08, O 69.59; for the Arabs — A 22.02, B 9.64, O 68.33; and for the Fedikyaee—A 24.46, B 9.54, O 65.98
As you can see from the findings, modern Nubians show the same blood type pattern as the Toubou—high O and low B.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Right you are, Zarahan.
That's the reason why I like to cite old sources. Even though they're old they are not necessarily outdated, and even if they are, there are a few grains of salt that still hold relevance.
In the case of Briggs, while he was wrong about racial typology his findings on blood groupings was still true and when you put it together with latest DNA findings it paints a better picture of ancient North African populations. Speaking of which I forgot to mention that ironically while Briggs and other experts of his time identify high B and low O with "negroes", that same frequency is not only found among the Haratin but according to the findings of the 1973 G. Paoli research also among early dynastic Egyptians! Even today, many modern Egyptians have a significant frequency of type B blood, especially in the oases areas which contradicts the popular claim of Egyptians having close blood ties to Berbers whereas the Toubou do have such blood ties to the Berber. How ironic! In fact, this reminds me of the Karim Kamel et al. 1965 study ‘ABO blood groups and hemoglobin variants among Nubians, Egypt, U.A.R.’: Three hundred and fifty‐six Nubians of Upper Egypt were tested for hemoglobin variants and ABO blood groups. No hemoglobin variants were detected. ABO allele frequencies for the Konouz are: A 19.31, B 11.08, O 69.59; for the Arabs — A 22.02, B 9.64, O 68.33; and for the Fedikyaee—A 24.46, B 9.54, O 65.98
As you can see from the findings, modern Nubians show the same blood type pattern as the Toubou—high O and low B.
Good work. Your reference some years back to an old study (Home of the heroes?) showing that the very early inhabitants of Crete appeared pug-nosed and "negroid" is an example of the diversity of phenotypes in the Aegean region at that early time, a pattern that of course did not stay the same as time went on. These old references can reveal some very interesting patterns.
Strange thing about that type B. Back in Madilda's time an assortment of Euronuts was using blood types to advance 'Aryan' claims, but it turned out that while "Caucasoids" had more A and A2 blud, negroes and Egyptians clustered together more on type B, that the touted "caucasoids". Ah, the old days.. But as you show above, the diversity in the region, with high O among the Nubian samples belays simple explanations.
*Note Daza is another name for Toubou*
some of these older writings hold the Toubou to be some sort of mixture, and some argue for 2 types of Toubou- a "northern" Teda type- more "Caucasid" versus a southern "Daza" group, mo "negroid". All these obsolete concepts fail to take into account the diversity of African peoples who don;t fall neatly into these pigeonholes. The US Army had a survey of the region in the 1970s talking about a "Muslim" group compared to an "indigenous Negroid group." Apparently it was beyond conception that there could be people who were BOTH "Muslim" AND "Negroid."
Extensive Admixture and Selective Pressure Across the Sahel Belt (2015) by Triska & Soares et ales.
Speaking of the DNA "admixture" concept and how it is so often applied to Africa, what European groups would you say are "admixed" with Africans?
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Are there linguistic studies specifically linking Toubou with Sudanese languages beyond the fact they belong to the Nilo-Saharan phylum?
The problem with Nilo-Saharan is that certain branches tend to correlate with clusters or enclaves that are isolated from others and therefore certain typological nuisances develop within each cluster that may obfuscate the common phylogenetics. Hence the Nilotic group that makes up the 'Nilo' part of the name may be very different from the 'Saharan' group. But to answer your question yes, there were various studies showing common genetic ties between Saharan groups like Teda or it's closest relative Kanuri with Sudanic languages.
Well I'd say that study only supports the two studies I posted above in which the main difference between Toubou/Teda and Nilotes is that the former has more North African/Berber admixture while the latter has higher Horn/Cushitic or pre-Cushitic admixture.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Good work. Your reference some years back to an old study (Home of the heroes?) showing that the very early inhabitants of Crete appeared pug-nosed and "negroid" is an example of the diversity of phenotypes in the Aegean region at that early time, a pattern that of course did not stay the same as time went on. These old references can reveal some very interesting patterns.
Yes, and you may recall that certain Neolithic skulls in mainland Greece also displayed "negroid" features not to mention the Neolithic remains of Malta also bore "long-headed" skulls with "negroid" features. So something was going on in the Mediterranean basin at that time which seems a little strange considering how early dynastic Delta remains showed the opposite cranial features.
quote:Strange thing about that type B. Back in Madilda's time an assortment of Euronuts was using blood types to advance 'Aryan' claims, but it turned out that while "Caucasoids" had more A and A2 blud, negroes and Egyptians clustered together more on type B, that the touted "caucasoids". Ah, the old days.. But as you show above, the diversity in the region, with high O among the Nubian samples belays simple explanations.
Which is why blood type alone is useless. Note that blonde Eastern Europeans who are closest to the 'Aryan' speakers actually have type B also not to mention the non-I-E speaking Eastern Europeans like Hungarians and Uralians as well as Turks and Mongols.
quote:some of these older writings hold the Toubou to be some sort of mixture, and some argue for 2 types of Toubou- a "northern" Teda type- more "Caucasid" versus a southern "Daza" group, mo "negroid". All these obsolete concepts fail to take into account the diversity of African peoples who don;t fall neatly into these pigeonholes. The US Army had a survey of the region in the 1970s talking about a "Muslim" group compared to an "indigenous Negroid group." Apparently it was beyond conception that there could be people who were BOTH "Muslim" AND "Negroid."
Technically the Toubou are divided into two broad groups though such a division is linguistic and not racial. The northern group speak Teda dialects while the southern speak Daza. Whatever division between them is like that between Nubians with northern Nubians being Kenuzi and southern Nubians being Nobiin. And the Muslim and "negroid" division is idiotic. It's like when you hear the term 'Copt' thrown out forgetting that Coptic is a Christian denomination that includes whites of Greek descent in Alexandria to black Copts of northern Sudan.
quote:Speaking of the DNA "admixture" concept and how it is so often applied to Africa, what European groups would you say are "admixed" with Africans?
Well from all the studies I've read in this forum as well as elsewhere, the majority of this admixture is found in southern Europe along the Mediterranean in Greece, southern Italy, and Spain, though its not confined there. Some of this ancestry reached further north as well.
This has been hinted at since the 1990s with Bowcock which was later affirmed by Sforza and others. It's now official one-third of Europeans have African admixture.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: The countries and rulers' names are right here very clear. Tell us what the primary document says they are, or kweikwai. This isn't up for debate it's a matter of facts easily supported. And no, they aren't Kushi, once you translate i'll post the map.
I really do think those in this picture (despite the translation) - at the least ones in the back and those front - are more related to Dinka people/southern Sudanese ppl. Or they adopted (or took) their cultural traditional feather/cap. They could be from those that would later become the former Kushi state of Alodia in Medieval times at the sixth cataract. Which was situated in the location of the Dinka ppls origin.
"According to oral traditions, the Dinka originated from the Gezira in what is now Sudan. In medieval times this region was ruled by the kingdom of Alodia"
"The heartland of the kingdom was the Gezira, a fertile plain bounded by the White Nile in the west and the Blue Nile in the east"
So "Nubian" group/s from Aswan, hence the gold? maybe those from Nobatia. Specifically Nobatia as that's closest to Upper Egypt, in Lower Sudan and "Nubia".
It may not be direct Kushi, but it's for sure not all "Nubians" as some like to claim. As I've stated in my own thread. Those on the walls, with caps or shaped hair. Look far more like depictions of Dinka, Nuer, Burun, Jiye, Shilluk ppls.
quote:
Nehesu/Nehesi they all are not...
quote:Originally posted by Smnine-two:
Despite his ban, I do think he has a point in regard to correlation of lookism and tradition
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posted
Djehuti? What makes a Nilo-Saharan language a Nilo-Saharan language in relation to other languages?
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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And we know how the Ancient Egyptians felt about these raiding/conquering nomadic ppls and pastoralist African ethnic groups from the mountains and the Sahara. Who followed a nomadic honor code and some south Sudanese groups fit this distinction and did raid or try to raid Ancient Egypt towns/villages under Egyptian domain. Plus the Asiatics groups that would attack was apart of this nomadic paradigm.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
^^^
He was banned more for political reasons than his often excellent though oversized visuals I suppose.
Wow! We could make post after post deep diving this art and text
But for now just this unrevisited opinion on the bowing ruler of My3am, possibly the lead state of Wawat (Ta-Zeti, Kenset) or whatever federate Lower Nubia ancient name one calls it.
quote:Originally posted 03 January, 2011 by alTakruri: From a TNV post in the thread Kushites in art
===
Not so much a correction as a "second opinion."
I didn't want to post the full size Denkmaeller page because it would distort the forum format.
While a transliteration is just substituting one writing system's set of characters for another I do very much like that word magistrate.
<-- these 2 rescinded imgs now restored
Heqanefer may've been an AE best attempt to transcribe a personal (or even a place) name from the language spoken in Ma`am or like you say, a nickname. I doubt it being a proper Egyptic name because (at least so far) I can find no Egyptian so named.
One thing's certain, that magistrate's exercise of heqa was surely nefer in the eyes of Huy. Possibly, everyone and everything in that scene behind and below him was under his power which would be very high in level in the empire; Huy being secondary to pharaoh and Heqanefer being secondary to Huy.
I would very much like to look at the tomb inscriptions of Heqanefer not out of any skepticism but just to see what I can make of them.
quote:Arará_Sabalú wrote:
Thanks for the correction. And here is a bigger link to the picture:
sr (magistrate) n (of) m'm (Miam) Hq3 nfr (Heqanefer)
with Hq3 nfr bringing a new semantic information about this "sr", this person being a good ruler?
I tend to believe it was a (nick)name, not an occasional predicate though, since the tomb of this guy was found with apparently Hq3nfr as his name along with other facts identifying him with the one from Huy's tomb.
.
Procession of rulers over peoples upriver from Egypt above Aswan in its four panel and full context from Huy, 'viceroy' of the entire region, -- possibly
(img is a thread link, scroll to top)
as far south as Gezireh -- presenting them and their best imports to pharaoh Tutankhamen.
The first panel:
the ruler of My3am
the rulers of W3yt
children of rulers of various countries
The second panel:
rulers of Kesh
How related are Nuba of Sudan to Shilluk, Nuer, and
Dinka of South Sudan? Dinka passed by the Nuba Hills from Gezireh on their way to their present homelands. Could it be the cattle and herders in panels 2 and 3 are ancestral to your current South Sudan Cattle Cult peoples like Shilluk Nuer and the Dinka whose history records that ethnic group's migration from Gezireh the southernmost known extent of Kush in Southern Nubia. Davidson concurs w/you @ 36:30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X75COneJ4w8
He was banned more for political reasons than his often excellent though oversized visuals I suppose.
Wow! We could make post after post deep diving this art and text
But for now just this unrevisited opinion on the bowing ruler of My3am, possibly the lead state of Wawat (Ta-Zeti, Kenset) or whatever federate Lower Nubia ancient name one calls it.
quote:Originally posted 03 January, 2011 by alTakruri: From a TNV post in the thread Kushites in art
===
Not so much a correction as a "second opinion."
I didn't want to post the full size Denkmaeller page because it would distort the forum format.
While a transliteration is just substituting one writing system's set of characters for another I do very much like that word magistrate.
<-- these 2 rescinded imgs now restored
Heqanefer may've been an AE best attempt to transcribe a personal (or even a place) name from the language spoken in Ma`am or like you say, a nickname. I doubt it being a proper Egyptic name because (at least so far) I can find no Egyptian so named.
One thing's certain, that magistrate's exercise of heqa was surely nefer in the eyes of Huy. Possibly, everyone and everything in that scene behind and below him was under his power which would be very high in level in the empire; Huy being secondary to pharaoh and Heqanefer being secondary to Huy.
I would very much like to look at the tomb inscriptions of Heqanefer not out of any skepticism but just to see what I can make of them.
quote:Arará_Sabalú wrote:
Thanks for the correction. And here is a bigger link to the picture:
sr (magistrate) n (of) m'm (Miam) Hq3 nfr (Heqanefer)
with Hq3 nfr bringing a new semantic information about this "sr", this person being a good ruler?
I tend to believe it was a (nick)name, not an occasional predicate though, since the tomb of this guy was found with apparently Hq3nfr as his name along with other facts identifying him with the one from Huy's tomb.
.
Procession of rulers over peoples upriver from Egypt above Aswan in its four panel and full context from Huy, 'viceroy' of the entire region, -- possibly
(img is a thread link, scroll to top)
as far south as Gezireh -- presenting them and their best imports to pharaoh Amenophis III.
The first panel:
the ruler of My3am
the rulers of W3yt
children of rulers of various countries
The second panel:
rulers of Kesh
How related are Nuba of Sudan to Shilluk, Nuer, and Dinka of South Sudan? Dinka passed by the Nuba Hills from Gezireh on their way to their present homelands. Could it be the cattle and herders in panels 2 and 3 are ancestral to your current South Sudan Cattle Cult peoples like Shilluk Nuer and the Dinka whose history records that ethnic group's migration from Gezireh the southernmost known extent of Kush in Southern Nubia. Davidson concurs w/you @ 36:30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X75COneJ4w8
Most ES veterans will recognize Kerma as the first capital of the kingdom of Kush, and so some of the information here may be already familiar to us. But what stood out to me in this new article was the claim that the Kushites in Kerma would have coexisted with several other Sudanese cultures, including people from further south as well as the C-Group people to the north. Some juicy excerpts:
quote:But Bonnet’s excavations are offering a markedly Nubian perspective on the earliest days of Kerma and its role as the capital of a far-reaching kingdom that dominated the Nile south of Egypt. His finds there and at a neighboring ancient settlement known as Dukki Gel suggest that this urban center was an ethnic melting pot, with origins tied to a complex web of cultures native to both the Sahara, and, farther south, parts of central Africa. These discoveries have gradually revealed the complex nature of a powerful African kingdom.
quote:Bonnet’s work at Kerma quickly showed that Reisner was wrong. His team’s surveys of the city’s necropolis revealed 30,000 burials in addition to those Reisner had excavated, making it one of the largest cemeteries yet discovered in the ancient world. And after unearthing tombs, buildings, and pottery that predated the 1500 B.C. Egyptian invasion of Nubia, Bonnet realized that Kerma was not merely an Egyptian colony, but had been built and ruled by Nubians. “The country was wrongly believed to have only depended on Egypt,” says Bonnet. “I wanted to reconstruct a more accurate history of Sudan.” In addition to determining that Nubians had founded the city, the team began to identify evidence of other African cultures at Kerma. They discovered round huts, oval temples, and intricate curved-wall bastions that were distinct from both Egyptian and Nubian architecture, and instead mirrored buildings archaeologists have unearthed in southern Sudan and regions in central Africa. “We realized that the tombs, palaces, and temples stood out from Egyptian remains, and that a different tradition characterized the discoveries,” says Bonnet. “We were in another world.”
quote:Some buildings Bonnet has unearthed at Kerma suggest that African influences from outside Nubia endured, and that foreign people continued to live at Kerma even after the C-Group departed. To him, the building styles there represent a conglomeration of cultures, with architecture not only influenced by Egyptian practices, but also inspired by other African traditions. In particular, a courtyard in the southern part of the city surrounded by circular structures and a small fort featuring curved defensive walls allude to African traditions that resemble modern architecture in Darfur, Ethiopia, and South Sudan. Much like the C-Group, however, the precise identity of these later African populations at Kerma remains unknown. Little archaeological research has been conducted in southern Sudan, and there are very few known sites with which to compare Kerma.
quote:Bonnet wondered how an entire city built using non-Nubian African traditions and presumably serving a different population could have existed so close to Kerma. He notes that Egyptian sources say that their armies often contended not just with Nubians, but with coalitions of enemies to the south. Perhaps, he suggests, the kings of Kerma occasionally led a kind of federation of Nubians and Africans from farther south against Egypt. Leaders from the south may have brought their armies to Dukki Gel, which they built according to their traditions, and which might have functioned as a ceremonial and military center. Geomagnetic surveys at the site have yielded images of installations that might have been troop encampments, but these have yet to be excavated.
So basically it would have been a crossroads between Saharan and southern Sudanic Africa.
"In particular, a courtyard in the southern part of the city surrounded by circular structures and a small fort featuring curved defensive walls allude to African traditions that resemble modern architecture in Darfur, Ethiopia, and South Sudan."
One Third's thread correlates to what you have mapped out and pretty much what i've said. Along with the thread you hyperlinked.
-------------------- "Nothing hurts a racist more than the absolute truth and a punch to the face" Posts: 101 | From: United States | Registered: Aug 2020
| IP: Logged |
He was banned more for political reasons than his often excellent though oversized visuals I suppose.
Wow! We could make post after post deep diving this art and text
But for now just this unrevisited opinion on the bowing ruler of My3am, possibly the lead state of Wawat (Ta-Zeti, Kenset) or whatever federate Lower Nubia ancient name one calls it.
quote:Originally posted 03 January, 2011 by alTakruri: From a TNV post in the thread Kushites in art
===
Not so much a correction as a "second opinion."
I didn't want to post the full size Denkmaeller page because it would distort the forum format.
While a transliteration is just substituting one writing system's set of characters for another I do very much like that word magistrate.
<-- these 2 rescinded imgs now restored
Heqanefer may've been an AE best attempt to transcribe a personal (or even a place) name from the language spoken in Ma`am or like you say, a nickname. I doubt it being a proper Egyptic name because (at least so far) I can find no Egyptian so named.
One thing's certain, that magistrate's exercise of heqa was surely nefer in the eyes of Huy. Possibly, everyone and everything in that scene behind and below him was under his power which would be very high in level in the empire; Huy being secondary to pharaoh and Heqanefer being secondary to Huy.
I would very much like to look at the tomb inscriptions of Heqanefer not out of any skepticism but just to see what I can make of them.
quote:Arará_Sabalú wrote:
Thanks for the correction. And here is a bigger link to the picture:
sr (magistrate) n (of) m'm (Miam) Hq3 nfr (Heqanefer)
with Hq3 nfr bringing a new semantic information about this "sr", this person being a good ruler?
I tend to believe it was a (nick)name, not an occasional predicate though, since the tomb of this guy was found with apparently Hq3nfr as his name along with other facts identifying him with the one from Huy's tomb.
.
Procession of rulers over peoples upriver from Egypt above Aswan in its four panel and full context from Huy, 'viceroy' of the entire region, -- possibly
(img is a thread link, scroll to top)
as far south as Gezireh -- presenting them and their best imports to pharaoh Amenophis III.
The first panel:
the ruler of My3am
the rulers of W3yt
children of rulers of various countries
The second panel:
rulers of Kesh
How related are Nuba of Sudan to Shilluk, Nuer, and Dinka of South Sudan? Dinka passed by the Nuba Hills from Gezireh on their way to their present homelands. Could it be the cattle and herders in panels 2 and 3 are ancestral to your current South Sudan Cattle Cult peoples like Shilluk Nuer and the Dinka whose history records that ethnic group's migration from Gezireh the southernmost known extent of Kush in Southern Nubia. Davidson concurs w/you @ 36:30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X75COneJ4w8
Most ES veterans will recognize Kerma as the first capital of the kingdom of Kush, and so some of the information here may be already familiar to us. But what stood out to me in this new article was the claim that the Kushites in Kerma would have coexisted with several other Sudanese cultures, including people from further south as well as the C-Group people to the north. Some juicy excerpts:
quote:But Bonnet’s excavations are offering a markedly Nubian perspective on the earliest days of Kerma and its role as the capital of a far-reaching kingdom that dominated the Nile south of Egypt. His finds there and at a neighboring ancient settlement known as Dukki Gel suggest that this urban center was an ethnic melting pot, with origins tied to a complex web of cultures native to both the Sahara, and, farther south, parts of central Africa. These discoveries have gradually revealed the complex nature of a powerful African kingdom.
quote:Bonnet’s work at Kerma quickly showed that Reisner was wrong. His team’s surveys of the city’s necropolis revealed 30,000 burials in addition to those Reisner had excavated, making it one of the largest cemeteries yet discovered in the ancient world. And after unearthing tombs, buildings, and pottery that predated the 1500 B.C. Egyptian invasion of Nubia, Bonnet realized that Kerma was not merely an Egyptian colony, but had been built and ruled by Nubians. “The country was wrongly believed to have only depended on Egypt,” says Bonnet. “I wanted to reconstruct a more accurate history of Sudan.” In addition to determining that Nubians had founded the city, the team began to identify evidence of other African cultures at Kerma. They discovered round huts, oval temples, and intricate curved-wall bastions that were distinct from both Egyptian and Nubian architecture, and instead mirrored buildings archaeologists have unearthed in southern Sudan and regions in central Africa. “We realized that the tombs, palaces, and temples stood out from Egyptian remains, and that a different tradition characterized the discoveries,” says Bonnet. “We were in another world.”
quote:Some buildings Bonnet has unearthed at Kerma suggest that African influences from outside Nubia endured, and that foreign people continued to live at Kerma even after the C-Group departed. To him, the building styles there represent a conglomeration of cultures, with architecture not only influenced by Egyptian practices, but also inspired by other African traditions. In particular, a courtyard in the southern part of the city surrounded by circular structures and a small fort featuring curved defensive walls allude to African traditions that resemble modern architecture in Darfur, Ethiopia, and South Sudan. Much like the C-Group, however, the precise identity of these later African populations at Kerma remains unknown. Little archaeological research has been conducted in southern Sudan, and there are very few known sites with which to compare Kerma.
quote:Bonnet wondered how an entire city built using non-Nubian African traditions and presumably serving a different population could have existed so close to Kerma. He notes that Egyptian sources say that their armies often contended not just with Nubians, but with coalitions of enemies to the south. Perhaps, he suggests, the kings of Kerma occasionally led a kind of federation of Nubians and Africans from farther south against Egypt. Leaders from the south may have brought their armies to Dukki Gel, which they built according to their traditions, and which might have functioned as a ceremonial and military center. Geomagnetic surveys at the site have yielded images of installations that might have been troop encampments, but these have yet to be excavated.
So basically it would have been a crossroads between Saharan and southern Sudanic Africa.
"In particular, a courtyard in the southern part of the city surrounded by circular structures and a small fort featuring curved defensive walls allude to African traditions that resemble modern architecture in Darfur, Ethiopia, and South Sudan."
One Third's thread correlates to what you have mapped out and pretty much what i've said. Along with the thread you hyperlinked.
"Doug M says". Thats funny.
But yes, the issue as I have mentioned numerous times is that the whole idea of "Nubia" is a complete joke. Sudan to this day is a very diverse country and not a monolithic ethnic group, culture, language and so forth. And that even goes moreso for the ancient Nile Valley, where outside of Kmt, which was a formal nation state, other groups were much more distinct in terms of individual cultural and ethnic identities. As the images from the tomb show, the 18th Dynasty had stretched all the way down into the region of the 6th Cataract. Those are the same regions that would later become Kush and afterwards Meroe. Lumping all those different ethnic groups along the NIle and regions away from the Nile into a single ethno-state in ancient times is nonsense.
The people in ancient times were much more nomadic and clung to those pastoralist ways without a common writing system for many years long after Kemet was born. And linguistically they had various tongues that they spoke and not any single unified language. It is silly and ridiculous to lump them together as anything more than a group of loosely knit trading networks and cultures. Kemet was a nation state unified under a single political banner and cultural identity. The groups to the South of Kemet were nowhere near as organized and unified as implied by the usage of the word "Nubia" signifying a common political, cultural and ethnic identity. This is where the confusion comes into play as to what people are referring to when they say "Nubian". "Nubians" in Sudan today are primarily populations in Lower Sudan (and Upper Egypt) who reject Arab identity and culture. They are not the same as the Dinka and Nuer and other folks farther South in Sudan.
As far as Egyptology goes, these distinctions don't matter, because to them "Nubian" means black folks to the South of Kemet. Which is hilarious because Kemet means black, so we know that is absolute nonsense.
The Africans along the Nile that developed a sedentary lifestyle with writing and a centrally organized nation state coalesced into what we know as Ancient Egypt. The rest of Africa and most of the world still remained very nomadic in nature and based on smaller clan identities and some smaller settlements in various places. And along the Nile and elsewhere in Africa following pastoral traditions which meant being able to roam over large regions free from the concepts of political borders and boundaries. This has always been a problem in Africa where foreigners arbitrarily drew borders around populations that historically never identified as a single monolithic entity.
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But yes, the issue as I have mentioned numerous times is that the whole idea of "Nubia" is a complete joke. Sudan to this day is a very diverse country and not a monolithic ethnic group, culture, language and so forth. And that even goes moreso for the ancient Nile Valley, where outside of Kmt, which was a formal nation state, other groups were much more distinct in terms of individual cultural and ethnic identities. As the images from the tomb show, the 18th Dynasty had stretched all the way down into the region of the 6th Cataract. Those are the same regions that would later become Kush and afterwards Meroe. Lumping all those different ethnic groups along the NIle and regions away from the Nile into a single ethno-state in ancient times is nonsense.
The people in ancient times were much more nomadic and clung to those pastoralist ways without a common writing system for many years long after Kemet was born. And linguistically they had various tongues that they spoke and not any single unified language. It is silly and ridiculous to lump them together as anything more than a group of loosely knit trading networks and cultures. Kemet was a nation state unified under a single political banner and cultural identity. The groups to the South of Kemet were nowhere near as organized and unified as implied by the usage of the word "Nubia" signifying a common political, cultural and ethnic identity. This is where the confusion comes into play as to what people are referring to when they say "Nubian". "Nubians" in Sudan today are primarily populations in Lower Sudan (and Upper Egypt) who reject Arab identity and culture. They are not the same as the Dinka and Nuer and other folks farther South in Sudan.
As far as Egyptology goes, these distinctions don't matter, because to them "Nubian" means black folks to the South of Kemet. Which is hilarious because Kemet means black, so we know that is absolute nonsense.
The Africans along the Nile that developed a sedentary lifestyle with writing and a centrally organized nation state coalesced into what we know as Ancient Egypt. The rest of Africa and most of the world still remained very nomadic in nature and based on smaller clan identities and some smaller settlements in various places. And along the Nile and elsewhere in Africa following pastoral traditions which meant being able to roam over large regions free from the concepts of political borders and boundaries. This has always been a problem in Africa where foreigners arbitrarily drew borders around populations that historically never identified as a single monolithic entity.
Agreed. I don't like using the word Nubian but people recognize this word as an identifier for the region below Egypt.
The history of the Nile Valley is complicated. I know that Narmer was the first inhabitant of the Nile Valley to declare he was Kushite. I have read many ancient documents but up to now I still don't understand what the Egyptians had against the concept of Kush. But what we do know is that the Nehesy state of Ta-Seti decided to form the ancient Egypt state which was a Pan-African confederation
No matter, what the truth is, Egypt was a strong nation completely surrounded by Kushites it maintained its identity for thousands of years. In addition, it was able to Keep the Lower Egyptian Kushites (or Hyksos), loyal to the nation.
It seems to me tht the Kushites, for much of their history refused to make public the knowledge they knew about the Universe that was maintained in the secret society. The Egyptians in their monuments and text made this knowledge evident for all of us to see. We can thank the Egyptians for granting us insights into the knowledge held secret. Just imagine what knowledge is still hidden from us in the secret societies that the members can not tell us.
Tukuler is right we need to translate the documents our self so we can see what they really say. I only studied ancient Egyptian to look at its linguistic character, now, I wish I would have learned the language like I learned several other languages.
Today I am old. At 70 years old it is only a matter of time before I return home to the ancestors.
I hope some of you will seriously study the history of the Nile Valley and transmit the true history of this region. Right now, Eurocentrists are telling us many half-truths.
Aluta continua......
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
^^^^ Dr. Winters...I pray that all is well with you. You have all of my respect as a person who have followed this blog and watched your videos for years... Have you seen the following..? It seems to converge with your Kushite hypothesis
quote: Monday, September 21, 2015 Vasco-Nubian Maju, who is in addition to being a public intellectual, a Basque person who is fluent in the Basque language, discusses the possibility that the hypothetical Vasconic language family of which Basque is a part and all other members are extinct, may be derived from the Nilo-Saharan Nubian languages of Africa, with substantial later contributions from Proto-Indo-European (as opposed, for example, to its later variants), i.e. a Vasco-Nubian hypothesis.
He suggests a Mesolithic (i.e. immediately pre-invention of farming) presence in the Levant of Nilo-Saharan language speakers, whose language becomes the language of the first farmers of Europe and then is bit by bit replaced by Indo-European languages at a later date.
He makes an effort at mass lexical comparison with a Swadesh list of words that shows a much stronger than random chance relationship. I've looked at the phonetics and grammar and it isn't too much of a stretch on that front at that time depth.
quote: eptember 17, 2015 Vasco-Nubian? This is something I've been chewing on for more than a year now and yet never got myself to blog about (although I have mentioned in private or in comments here and there). Impelled by the minor but quite apparent NE African influence, genetic and cultural, on the Neolithic peoples of the Levant, whose offshoots eventually landed in Greece triggering the European Neolithic, I decided in the Spring of 2014 to explore, via mass-lexical comparison, if Basque language (and by extension the wider Vasconic family, which I believe now to be that of mainline European Neolithic) might have any relation with Nubian languages. I did not expect to find anything but noise but to my surprise the number of apparent cognates is quite significant.
My primary analysis was this one but now I have combined it with a comparison with Proto-Indoeuropean (PIE), which is also very probably related to the roots of Vasconic: LINK (open office spreadsheet).
The synthesis is as follows:
Of course the "cognates" are only apparent cognates at this stage of the research and the evaluation is necessarily subjective. But judge yourselves.
If we discard the "weak" apparent cognates, the vocabulary correlation between Basque and Nubian and between Basque and PIE is pretty similar. But, in my understanding, both are well above the noise threshold, an example of which could be the PIE-Nubian apparent cognates, which are many many less.
I must say anyhow that the oblique apparent cognates, that is when one word sounds much not like its strict synonym but a related one (for example words meaning hot and fire), look all very solid and most intriguing.
Also, when attributing probabilities to origins of Basque words, Nubian appears to be at the origin of almost double the words (26%) that can be attributed to PIE (15%). Of course, for lack of data or because they actually have other origins, the unknown origins apply to the majority of words (56%), double than the Nubian origin ones.
However Nubian here is constituted of three different languages (Dilling, Nobiin and Midob), while PIE is just a single theoretical construct. This last must be done this way because many modern and historical IE languages, notably in Europe, have other Vasconic substrate influences, which must be studied separately from general PIE-Vasconic shared vocabulary. This kind of late Vasconic influence is very much unlikely in the case of Nubian instead. In any case I don't know of any a proto-Nubian Swadesh list readily available.
Finally I must mention that because the PDF format is horrible for copy-pasting, I chose to re-transcribe the Nubian words according to my best approximation using a normal keyboard (not always the same characters that the original list uses).
Strongest Basque-Nubian apparent simple cognates
Basque - Nubian languages (English) azal - àzì, àzzì-di (bark) haragi - árízh (meat) odol - ógór, èggér (blood) buru - úr (head) oin - ó:y (foot) esku - ish-i, ès-sì (hand) hil* - di-ìl (to die) euri - are, ara, áwwí, áré, árí, áró (rain) harri - kugor, kakar (stone) [notice also the pre-IE root *kharr- speculated to be at the origin of Karst, etc.] lur - gùr (soil, ground) haize - irsh-i, éss-í (wind)
There are some others that are shared with Indo-European and with similar subjective "weight", not listing them here to keep things clear. There are also other apparent cognates that are arguably less clear like bat - be (one) that I'm also skipping here but you can find in the spreadsheet.
*Hil (meaning both to die and to kill in Basque, which can't be confused because they conjugate differently) seems ancestral to English ill and kill (this one via a Germanic precursor).
The intriguing oblique cognates
Notice that these words do not mean the same, yet their meanings seem strikingly related. Nubian (English) - Basque (English) hor, koy, kà:r (tree) - harri (stone) [notice that zuhaitz (tree) can be interpreted etymologically as zur-haitz = wood-rock, so the relation is not that weird] ok-i, og (breast) - ogi (bread) a-l (heart) - ahal (can (verb), potential, power) azh, àz-ír, àzza (to bite) - (h)ortz (tooth), aitz (rock, peak) [some argue that originally "to cut", present in many cutting tool names: aizkor = axe, aitzur = hoe, aizto = knife, etc.*] shu, zhúù (to walk) - joan (to go) [often pronounced jun or shun] é:zhi (water) - heze (wet) [also archaic particle *iz-, meaning "water" by all accounts: itxaso = sea, izurde = dolphin, izotz = ice, and common in Vasconic river toponymy] zhuge (to burn) - su (fire) zhùg, sù, sú:w (hot) - su (fire) úr-i, úrúm (black) - urdin (blue) [archaic also green, grey]
*This one is an obvious and very prevalent Vasconic substrate infiltrator in Western IE languages: axe, adze, azada (hoe in Spanish), etc.
How can this be possible?
It is of course a mere working hypothesis and ultimately you judge but I find it hard to disdain. However there is no apparent connection, notably no significant genetic connection, between Basques and Nubians. So how can we explain this?
I have it reasonably clear myself, so I made a map to explain it:
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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But yes, the issue as I have mentioned numerous times is that the whole idea of "Nubia" is a complete joke. Sudan to this day is a very diverse country and not a monolithic ethnic group, culture, language and so forth. And that even goes moreso for the ancient Nile Valley, where outside of Kmt, which was a formal nation state, other groups were much more distinct in terms of individual cultural and ethnic identities. As the images from the tomb show, the 18th Dynasty had stretched all the way down into the region of the 6th Cataract. Those are the same regions that would later become Kush and afterwards Meroe. Lumping all those different ethnic groups along the NIle and regions away from the Nile into a single ethno-state in ancient times is nonsense.
The people in ancient times were much more nomadic and clung to those pastoralist ways without a common writing system for many years long after Kemet was born. And linguistically they had various tongues that they spoke and not any single unified language. It is silly and ridiculous to lump them together as anything more than a group of loosely knit trading networks and cultures. Kemet was a nation state unified under a single political banner and cultural identity. The groups to the South of Kemet were nowhere near as organized and unified as implied by the usage of the word "Nubia" signifying a common political, cultural and ethnic identity. This is where the confusion comes into play as to what people are referring to when they say "Nubian". "Nubians" in Sudan today are primarily populations in Lower Sudan (and Upper Egypt) who reject Arab identity and culture. They are not the same as the Dinka and Nuer and other folks farther South in Sudan.
As far as Egyptology goes, these distinctions don't matter, because to them "Nubian" means black folks to the South of Kemet. Which is hilarious because Kemet means black, so we know that is absolute nonsense.
The Africans along the Nile that developed a sedentary lifestyle with writing and a centrally organized nation state coalesced into what we know as Ancient Egypt. The rest of Africa and most of the world still remained very nomadic in nature and based on smaller clan identities and some smaller settlements in various places. And along the Nile and elsewhere in Africa following pastoral traditions which meant being able to roam over large regions free from the concepts of political borders and boundaries. This has always been a problem in Africa where foreigners arbitrarily drew borders around populations that historically never identified as a single monolithic entity.
Agreed. I don't like using the word Nubian but people recognize this word as an identifier for the region below Egypt.
The history of the Nile Valley is complicated. I know that Narmer was the first inhabitant of the Nile Valley to declare he was Kushite. I have read many ancient documents but up to now I still don't understand what the Egyptians had against the concept of Kush. But what we do know is that the Nehesy state of Ta-Seti decided to form the ancient Egypt state which was a Pan-African confederation
No matter, what the truth is, Egypt was a strong nation completely surrounded by Kushites it maintained its identity for thousands of years. In addition, it was able to Keep the Lower Egyptian Kushites (or Hyksos), loyal to the nation.
It seems to me tht the Kushites, for much of their history refused to make public the knowledge they knew about the Universe that was maintained in the secret society. The Egyptians in their monuments and text made this knowledge evident for all of us to see. We can thank the Egyptians for granting us insights into the knowledge held secret. Just imagine what knowledge is still hidden from us in the secret societies that the members can not tell us.
Tukuler is right we need to translate the documents our self so we can see what they really say. I only studied ancient Egyptian to look at its linguistic character, now, I wish I would have learned the language like I learned several other languages.
Today I am old. At 70 years old it is only a matter of time before I return home to the ancestors.
I hope some of you will seriously study the history of the Nile Valley and transmit the true history of this region. Right now, Eurocentrists are telling us many half-truths.
Aluta continua......
Hope you are well.
But to me, the Nile Valley was a region of Africa surrounded by more Africans. "Nubia" is simply a distraction. Africans have never been unified by "Africanness" ever. Nor have they been unified by skin color, ever. They are still all Africans regardless. Sudan just split in half due to this and none of them are any more or less African than the other.
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