posted
Nubians are the only Nilo-Saharan speaking group that does not cluster with groups of the same linguistic affiliation, but with Sudanese Afro-Asiatic speaking groups (Arabs and Beja) and Afro-Asiatic Ethiopians (Supplementary Fig. ... S7) and do not cluster with our Nilo-Saharan speaking populations.
Here is a link on Genetic studies that show The Nubians are not related to Nilo-Saharan speakers.https://www.nature.com/articles/srep09996
The Nubians cluster more with Afro-Asiatics because they are The people of Ancient Nubt(Naqada) and their original language was Egyptian. In fact they are the inventors of The Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphic(Medu Neter) Script. The oldest recorded evidence of Egyptian Hieroglyphs date to The Nubt III phase.
The protodynastic period in ancient Egypt was characterised by an ongoing process of political unification, culminating in the formation of a single state to begin the Early Dynastic Period. Furthermore, it is during this time that the Egyptian language was first recorded in hieroglyphs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naqada_IIIPosts: 39 | From: New York | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Smnine-two: Nubians are the only Nilo-Saharan speaking group that does not cluster with groups of the same linguistic affiliation, but with Sudanese Afro-Asiatic speaking groups (Arabs and Beja) and Afro-Asiatic Ethiopians (Supplementary Fig. ... S7) and do not cluster with our Nilo-Saharan speaking populations.
Here is a link on Genetic studies that show The Nubians are not related to Nilo-Saharan speakers.https://www.nature.com/articles/srep09996
The Nubians cluster more with Afro-Asiatics because they are The people of Ancient Nubt(Naqada) and their original language was Egyptian. In fact they are the inventors of The Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphic(Medu Neter) Script. The oldest recorded evidence of Egyptian Hieroglyphs date to The Nubt III phase.
The protodynastic period in ancient Egypt was characterised by an ongoing process of political unification, culminating in the formation of a single state to begin the Early Dynastic Period. Furthermore, it is during this time that the Egyptian language was first recorded in hieroglyphs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naqada_III
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posted
Please stay on topic. I'm not here for personal debates. I don't think I've done anything to warrant a ban and I only plan on posting here when I come across new information regarding Ancient Egypt which is exactly what this forum is for. I can obey these rules and not get into silly debates. Thank You.
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posted
You can't use The Nilo-Saharan classification to deny The Nubians their Ancient Nubt heritage because as genetics studies show they do not cluster with Nilo-Saharans but rather Afro-Asiatic speakers like The Ancient Nubts. This is because they are the very people of Nubt themselves. If everyone on this forum could come to grips with the fact that Nubia was not South of Egypt but rather the name of two cities within the borders of both Ancient Egypt(KMT) and the modern country of Egypt(KMT) then everything I'm saying will become so much more obvious and apparent. You have to understand that both cities were called Nubt up until The Greeks renamed them Ombos and Kom Ombo. Neither one of them were ever called Naqada. Naqada was just the Arabic term for the cities but The Arabs themselves never renamed it Naqada. So the question is why do Archeologists use the term Naqada if the city was never actually named that?. It's simple because the name Nubt is proof that Nubia was in Egypt and it's name derived from The AE word for Gold because of its richness in Gold due to its proximity to the gold mining areas in The Eastern Desert. It never referenced Sudan because Sudan was called Ta-Nehesi. So start using the term Nubian in its proper historical context as Nubt and refer to Sudan as Ta-Nehesi.
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posted
you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink
-learn this, you made the same point a hundred times already. You can't make people "come to grips" of what you want them to come to grips with
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posted
Ok but I've come across new information that furthers proves my point that The Nubians originate from Nubt regardless if posters here may be already familiar with it or not.
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so on the map we see the various nbw (nub) locations and we see where Naqada and the city of Nubt was located, along the river a little south of ABYDOS at Qena
So why did the Romans come up with this term "Nubian"? Probably because they were referring to the people in Northern Sudan where these big gold mines where and people along the river near Aswan who looked similar. It's a broad term incorporating many groups in the Northern Sudan southern Egypt region
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
No. English Nubian ultimately derives from the Noba people of Eratosthenes c 3rd century BCE and has nothing to do with gold.
AEs called the pazt Aswan up Nile region Ta Zeti, Wawat, etc., otherwise please produce primary AE documentation to the contrary.
posted
The Nubians are Indigenous to Southern Egypt not Northern Sudan. The Dinka/Nuer are Indigenous to Northern Sudan. Also The Romans did not invent the term Nubian because the word exists in The Ancient Egyptian language as NBW/NWB/NB/NUB. I've recently found out that not only did the term NUB reference Gold and not only was it the name of 2 cities in Egypt but it was in fact a name used to refer to the Egyptian God Set whom The Ancient Egyptians referred to as Set The Nubti meaning Golden one and a reference to Set's origin in Nubt. Here is the link proving Set was referred to as a Nubian/Nubti.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_400_Stela
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: No. English Nubian ultimately derivespeopleNoba Nobatae people
That is false. The term Nubian was used by The Ancient Egyptians. The Evidence is in The Hieroglyphs(Medu Neter) itself. The God Set was referred to as a Nubti referencing his origin in Nubt.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Weren't all the Neteru golden ones? What did AEs use gold color for in their art?
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: No. English Nubian ultimately derivespeopleNoba Nobatae people
If Nubian came to the Nile Valley only in the fifth century, the question of its original home is of some importance, and the present distribution of Nubian languages may provide a clue. At the present day Nubian is spoken - or was until the disruption caused by resettlement as a result of the building of the new Aswan dam and the resultant flooding of much of Nubia - along the Nile from a little north of Aswan to Debba, and there is good evidence from place names for its further extension upriver, perhaps to the neighbourhood of Khartoum, in medieval times. Related languages are spoken in the Nuba hills to the south-west, where a group of dialects usually known as 'Hill Nubian' are spoken by a people very different physically and culturally from the speakers of'River Nubian'. A little north of this group, at Jebel Haraza, evidence for a closely related language has recently come to light, and, in northern Darfur, Meidob and Birged are also related. This distribution suggests that in the past there may have been a wide area of the northern Sudan over which Nubian was spoken, and that it was one of the main language groups of the ancient Sudan. The modern distribution of related languages suggests that the original home of the ancestral language lay to the west, and that it spread from there to the Nile Valley. It is therefore tempting to identify the people buried in the mound graves at Meroe and elsewhere in the area with the Noba of Ezana and with the bringers of Nubian language to the Nile. The name Noba, and the subsequent use of this or a very similar name by medieval Arab writers for the inhabitants of the northern Sudan, from which the modern use of the word Nubian is derived, is unlikely to be coincidence -THE CAMBRIDGE HISTORY OF AFRICA General Editors: J. D. FAGE and ROLAND OLIVER Volume 2 from c. 500 BC to AD 1050
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Please remit primary AE documentation of a Nubia(n) region.
Speculation can't trump actual documentation.
My interest is not in thoughtless rapid fire post exchange. Unless primary AE written documents explicitly name a region or people named Nubia(ns) then quite obviously there were none.
quote:Originally posted by Smnine-two:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: No. English Nubian ultimately derives from the Noba people of Eratosthenes c 3rd century BCE and has nothing to do with gold.
AEs called the pazt Aswan up Nile region Ta Zeti, Wawat, etc., otherwise please produce primary AE documentation to the contrary.
Read up on Nobadia.
That is false. The term Nubian was used by The Ancient Egyptians. The Evidence is in The Hieroglyphs(Medu Neter) itself. The God Set was referred to as a Nubti referencing his origin in Nubt.
quote:Originally posted by Smnine-two: m The Ancient Egyptians referred to as Set The Nubti meaning Golden one and a reference to Set's origin in Nubt. Here is the link proving Set was referred to as a Nubian/Nubti. Year 400 Stela https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_400_Stela [/QB]
the Year 400 Stela was found in Tanis in the delta
which further weakens your argument
It's like assuming a person with the last name "Black" is a black person
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Unless primary AE written documents explicitly name a region or people named Nubia(ns) then quite obviously there were none.
^ Smirk, this is the end of the discussion, you either have an Egyptian text referring to > a people by the name of Nubians or you don't.
and you don't
In books on Egypt they always point this out that the Egyptians did not use a derivation of the word Nub such as "Nubian" to indicate themselves as a people or another people. A theoretical reference to Set is not describing a people There are many Egyptian texts. They don't refer to themselves as a people as "Nubian" or other people as "Nubian" - end of discussion
so we don't need another 10 threads to determine that
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3. I provided genetic evidence that The Nubians do not cluster with Nilo-Saharan speakers which obliterates the claim that they migrated from The Western Desert during the Roman era.https://www.nature.com/articles/srep09996
5. The Dinka word for people is KAS/KOC which is the exact same word for Kush in The AE language so this again proves The Nubians are not the historical Kushites of Northern Sudan and that The Dinka are.
What more evidence do you need??????
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: No. English Nubian ultimately derivespeopleNoba Nobatae people
If Nubian came to the Nile Valley only in the fifth century, the question of its original home is of some importance, and the present distribution of Nubian languages may provide a clue. At the present day Nubian is spoken - or was until the disruption caused by resettlement as a result of the building of the new Aswan dam and the resultant flooding of much of Nubia - along the Nile from a little north of Aswan to Debba, and there is good evidence from place names for its further extension upriver, perhaps to the neighbourhood of Khartoum, in medieval times. Related languages are spoken in the Nuba hills to the south-west, where a group of dialects usually known as 'Hill Nubian' are spoken by a people very different physically and culturally from the speakers of'River Nubian'. A little north of this group, at Jebel Haraza, evidence for a closely related language has recently come to light, and, in northern Darfur, Meidob and Birged are also related. This distribution suggests that in the past there may have been a wide area of the northern Sudan over which Nubian was spoken, and that it was one of the main language groups of the ancient Sudan. The modern distribution of related languages suggests that the original home of the ancestral language lay to the west, and that it spread from there to the Nile Valley. It is therefore tempting to identify the people buried in the mound graves at Meroe and elsewhere in the area with the Noba of Ezana and with the bringers of Nubian language to the Nile. The name Noba, and the subsequent use of this or a very similar name by medieval Arab writers for the inhabitants of the northern Sudan, from which the modern use of the word Nubian is derived, is unlikely to be coincidence -THE CAMBRIDGE HISTORY OF AFRICA General Editors: J. D. FAGE and ROLAND OLIVER Volume 2 from c. 500 BC to AD 1050
The Nubians of today are not a Nomadic people so that obliterates the theory that they originated from Noba Nomads during The Roman Era. I once considered the possibility of this until I learned that the AE word for gold was NUB/NBW and that there were 2 Nubts in AE. You have to understand that many Greco-Roman accounts of history were Mythological and lack archeological evidence so you cannot use Roman writings as a primary source. Also you would have to point to a present day population of Noba Nomads in The Western Desert to prove this migration and no such people exist today. Now that we have genetic studies that prove The Nubians don't cluster with Nilo-Saharans. This puts to sleep the claim that The Nubians migrated from The Western Desert. Another thing is the fact that the majority of Nubians can't even speak Noobin. It's a nearly extinct language which is no surprise because they don't cluster with that language family. Noobin is no more their language than Arabic is. They adopted this Nilo-Saharan language. They cluster with Afro-Asiatic speakers which is exactly what The Ancient Egyptians were.
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^^^ there's all the Gold spots, the Nubs the big ones in Northern Sudan
but there is no evidence in Egyptian text that they called groups of people by this gold reference or groups of themselves yet they do have a large number of named ethnic groups in these texts
"Nubians" as a reference to a people is not Egyptian. As a reference to a people that is a Greco-Roman invention
and until you find an example in an Egyptian text using any form of Nub to refer to a people you have nothing.
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Unless primary AE written documents explicitly name a region or people named Nubia(ns) then quite obviously there were none.
^ Smirk, this is the end of the discussion, you either have an Egyptian text referring to > a people by the name of Nubians or you don't.
and you don't
In books on Egypt they always point this out that the Egyptians did not use a derivation of the word Nub such as "Nubian" to indicate themselves as a people or another people. A theoretical reference to Set is not describing a people There are many Egyptian texts. They don't refer to themselves as a people as "Nubian" or other people as "Nubian" - end of discussion
so we don't need another 10 threads to determine that
Suffix. -ian. (as an adjective) From, related to, or like. (as a noun) One from, belonging to, relating to, or like. (as a noun) Having a certain profession.
The ''ian'' in the name Nubian is a suffix that meaans being from or belonging to Nub. This is no different than how the ''ian'' in The name Italian means belonging to or being from Italy. The Ancient Egyptian referral to The God Set as a ''Nubti'' with the suffix at the end meant that Set was from and belonged to Nubt. This is not up for debate.
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Suffix. -ian. (as an adjective) From, related to, or like. (as a noun) One from, belonging to, relating to, or like. (as a noun) Having a certain profession.
The ''ian'' in the name Nubian is a suffix that meaans being from or belonging to Nub. This is no different than how the ''ian'' in The name Italian means belonging to or being from Italy. The Ancient Egyptian referral to The God Set as a ''Nubti'' with the suffix at the end meant that Set was from and belonged to Nubt. This is not up for debate. [/QB]
"ian" is latin, not Egyptian language, that is irrelevant.
The God Set is not a people he's a God
The Egyptians did not call the people living in the river valley around Aswan "Nub" or "Nubti"
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Suffix. -ian. (as an adjective) From, related to, or like. (as a noun) One from, belonging to, relating to, or like. (as a noun) Having a certain profession.
The ''ian'' in the name Nubian is a suffix that meaans being from or belonging to Nub. This is no different than how the ''ian'' in The name Italian means belonging to or being from Italy. The Ancient Egyptian referral to The God Set as a ''Nubti'' with the suffix at the end meant that Set was from and belonged to Nubt. This is not up for debate.
"ian" is not Egyptian language, that is irrelevant.
The God Set is not a people he's a God
The Egyptians did not call the people living in the river valley around Aswan "Nub" or "Nubti" [/QB]
Nub derives from Egyptian NB/NBW. Nub is not Latin in origin.
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Suffix. -ian. (as an adjective) From, related to, or like. (as a noun) One from, belonging to, relating to, or like. (as a noun) Having a certain profession.
The ''ian'' in the name Nubian is a suffix that meaans being from or belonging to Nub. This is no different than how the ''ian'' in The name Italian means belonging to or being from Italy. The Ancient Egyptian referral to The God Set as a ''Nubti'' with the suffix at the end meant that Set was from and belonged to Nubt. This is not up for debate.
"ian" is not Egyptian language, that is irrelevant.
The God Set is not a people he's a God
The Egyptians did not call the people living in the river valley around Aswan "Nub" or "Nubti"
It doesn't matter if the suffix is Latin because the word Nub is Egyptian. The Egyptians also used a suffix which is why they referred to Set as a Nubti. Regardless of if it was referring to a God and not a person. They still referred to Set as a Nubti. [/QB]
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quote:Originally posted by Smnine-two: It doesn't matter if the suffix is Latin because the word Nub is Egyptian. The Egyptians also used a suffix which is why they referred to Set as a Nubti. Regardless of if it was referring to a God and not a person. They still referred to Set as a Nubti.
Again, a thousands times, the Egyptians did not refer to a people as Nubti
Set is not a people, it's a singular deity
The Egyptians had words for themselves including Rmt and many words for various words for groups of people Nub or Nubti was not one of them
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posted
Nubti means he of Nubt(Ombos). This is why Set was called Set-Nubti. It designates Set belonging to Nubt. I never said The AE referred to themselves as Nubti. I said they referred to Set as Nubti. This is evidence that they did use the term to refer to something other than the city itself.
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quote:Originally posted by Smnine-two: Nubti means he of Nubt(Ombos). This is why Set was called Set-Nubti. It designates Set belonging to Nubt. I never said The AE referred to themselves as Nubti. I said they referred to Set as Nubti. This is evidence that they did use the term to refer to something other than the city itself.
Again, a thousands times, the Egyptians did not refer to a people as Nubti
Set is not a people, it's a singular deity
The Egyptians had words for themselves including Rmt and many words for various words for groups of people Nub or Nubti was not one of them
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posted
Once again I never said they used the word for people but rather that they used the term with a suffix to refer to The God Set which designated him belonging to Nubt. So while they didn't use the term for people they still used the term with a suffix to refer to one of their Gods. The word existed in The Ancient Egyptian language and you cannot argue against this because the evidence is in The Hieroglyphs.
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quote:Originally posted by Smnine-two: Once again I never said they used the word for people but rather that they used the term with a suffix to refer to The God Set which designated him belonging to Nubt. So while they didn't use the term for people they still used the term with a suffix to refer to one of their Gods. The word existed in The Ancient Egyptian language and you cannot argue against this because the evidence is in The Hieroglyphs.
Again, right here you used the word Nubian to refer to a people >
quote:Originally posted by Smnine-two:
The Nubians cluster more with Afro-Asiatics because they are The people of Ancient Nubt(Naqada) and their original language was Egyptian.
You are saying a group of people who are now called "Nubians" are from Nubt(Naqada)
and you have no reference by the Egyptians or even Romans that "Nubian" refers to people from the city of Nubt
Again Set is a deity not a group of people. Set does not mean "Nubian"
Set is of Nubti, a town -not "a Nubti"
And where are these modern Nubians even saying they are from Nubt/Ombos (the Nubt in Qena)
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quote:Originally posted by Smnine-two: Nubians are the only Nilo-Saharan speaking group that does not cluster with groups of the same linguistic affiliation, but with Sudanese Afro-Asiatic speaking groups (Arabs and Beja) and Afro-Asiatic Ethiopians (Supplementary Fig. ... S7) and do not cluster with our Nilo-Saharan speaking populations.
Here is a link on Genetic studies that show The Nubians are not related to Nilo-Saharan speakers.https://www.nature.com/articles/srep09996
Yeah we've been knowing this fact for a long time now and nobody in this forum said otherwise so what is your point??
That still doesn't change the fact that Nubians are not the same as ethnic Egyptians.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Smnine-two: Nubians are the only Nilo-Saharan speaking group that does not cluster with groups of the same linguistic affiliation, but with Sudanese Afro-Asiatic speaking groups (Arabs and Beja) and Afro-Asiatic Ethiopians (Supplementary Fig. ... S7) and do not cluster with our Nilo-Saharan speaking populations.
Here is a link on Genetic studies that show The Nubians are not related to Nilo-Saharan speakers.https://www.nature.com/articles/srep09996
Yeah we've been knowing this fact for a long time now and nobody in this forum said otherwise so what is your point??
That still doesn't change the fact that Nubians are not the same as ethnic Egyptians.
But weren't you using their False Nilo-Saharan classification as the basis to you're argument that they weren't ethnic Egyptians?. You once argued that they clustered with Nilo-Saharan speakers and used The Toubou as an example. So now that we both know that They cluster with Afro-Asiatic speakers then The Nilo-Saharan argument goes out the window. This also completely obliterates the claim that they originate from Noba Nomads in The Western Desert and the nail in the coffin is the fact that The Nubians of today are not a Nomadic people. That story was a Roman Mythological account of history. The Noba Nomads never existed this is why you will not find such people in The Western Desert today. All evidence shows The Nubians to be Indigenous Ethnic Egyptians.
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quote:Originally posted by Smnine-two: Once again I never said they used the word for people but rather that they used the term with a suffix to refer to The God Set which designated him belonging to Nubt. So while they didn't use the term for people they still used the term with a suffix to refer to one of their Gods. The word existed in The Ancient Egyptian language and you cannot argue against this because the evidence is in The Hieroglyphs.
Again, right here you used the word Nubian to refer to a people >
quote:Originally posted by Smnine-two:
The Nubians cluster more with Afro-Asiatics because they are The people of Ancient Nubt(Naqada) and their original language was Egyptian.
You are saying a group of people who are now called "Nubians" are from Nubt(Naqada)
and you have no reference by the Egyptians or even Romans that "Nubian" refers to people from the city of Nubt
Again Set is a deity not a group of people. Set does not mean "Nubian"
Set is of Nubti, a town -not "a Nubti"
And where are these modern Nubians even saying they are from Nubt/Ombos (the Nubt in Qena)
I said their name Nubian with a suffix indicates them belonging to Nubt. I used The Ancient Egyptian referral to Set as a Nubti to show that They did use the term with a suffix exactly like the term is being used today. Even if they were only using the term to refer to a God. They still used it.
Since you asked here is a video of Nubian elders acknowledging that they are Indigenous to Egypt. They claim no Sudanese or Western origin. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvJ0F299kFQPosts: 39 | From: New York | Registered: Mar 2020
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I said their name Nubian with a suffix indicates them belonging to Nubt.
yes you say this and there is no evidence that Nubians belong to Nubt
quote:Originally posted by Smnine-two: I used The Ancient Egyptian referral to Set as a Nubti to show that They did use the term with a suffix exactly like the term is being used today.
You refer to "Nubians" and that is not exactly the same as "Nubti"
The meaning here with Nubti is city of gold
Again, Set is of the city of gold keyword OF
quote:Originally posted by Smnine-two:
Even if they were only using the term to refer to a God. They still used it.
Again, MODERN NUBIANS DO NOT CALL THEMSELVES NUBTI
quote:Originally posted by Smnine-two:
Since you asked here is a video of Nubian elders acknowledging that they are Indigenous to Egypt. they claim no Sudanese or Western origin. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvJ0F299kFQ
Again modern Nubians lived along the river valley that goes through both countries Egypt and Sudan, 1st to 6th cataract
The man in the video says "the Nubians and Egyptians are not white they are black Africans"
He did not say the the Nubians are the original Egyptians and he did not say the Nubians came from Nubt
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Once again the suffix at the end of the term Nubian designates belonging to Nub. You keep acting like the suffix at the end makes it a different term. So according to you're logic the terms Italy and Italian are two different terms. Do you see how that makes no sense?. You are using the suffix to separate Nubian from Nub which is the equivalent to separating Italian from Italy. If Nubians don't belong to Nub then Italians don't belong to Italy. You are making a nonsensical argument.
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quote:Originally posted by Smnine-two: Once again the suffix at the end of the term Nubian designates belonging to Nub. You keep acting like the suffix at the end makes it a different term. So according to you're logic the terms Italy and Italian are two different terms. Do you see how that makes no sense?. You are using the suffix to separate Nubian from Nub which is the equivalent to separating Italian from Italy. If Nubians don't belong to Nub then Italians don't belong to Italy. You are making a nonsensical argument.
Again, the suffix "ian" is Latin
Again, the suffix "ian" is Latin
Again, the suffix "ian" is Latin
Again Nub means gold
Again Nubti is a town where Set was worshiped
Again the "I" at the end is a location designation not a reference to people
Again, Egyptians texts do not refer to a people with a derivation of the word Nub
This means that the fact that the word "Nubian" only appears in the Greco-Roman period
That means they could have intended it to refer to all the people from the 1st cataract in Egypt and down into Sudan as well.
Again the big Nub mines are in Sudan
meaning "people of the gold mining regions"
Again "ian" is Latin, not Egyptian and the people around Aswan don't call themselves Nubti
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quote:Originally posted by Smnine-two: But weren't you using their False Nilo-Saharan classification as the basis to you're argument that they weren't ethnic Egyptians?.
First of all there is nothing "false" about it! Nilo-Saharan is a linguistic classification. The Nubians speak Nilo-Saharan languages and language is a large part of ethnicity. You fail to understand that there is a difference between ethnicity and genetics.
quote:You once argued that they clustered with Nilo-Saharan speakers and used The Toubou as an example. So now that we both know that They cluster with Afro-Asiatic speakers then The Nilo-Saharan argument goes out the window. This also completely obliterates the claim that they originate from Noba Nomads in The Western Desert and the nail in the coffin is the fact that The Nubians of today are not a Nomadic people. That story was a Roman Mythological account of history. The Noba Nomads never existed this is why you will not find such people in The Western Desert today. All evidence shows The Nubians to be Indigenous Ethnic Egyptians.
Again you completely FAIL to comprehend the difference between ethnicity, that is linguistic and cultural affiliation, and that of physical population which is genetic affiliation! The two are NOT the same and often times contradict. My argument still stands that modern Nubians are ethnically--both linguistically and culturally--affiliated with the Toubou... who ALSO genetically cluster with Afro-asiatic speakers of northeast Africa, ignoramus!! Also, how does the fact that modern Nubians are sedentary today contradict the fact that their Noba ancestors were nomads??! You do realize that throughout history cultures change over time and people who were once nomadic become sedentary and vice-versa! Also, you keep saying it is a Roman myth when not only the Romans but Greeks and even native Egyptian commentators have spoke of groups immigrating into the Nile Valley during the Late Periods of Egyptian history not only the Noba but also the Blemmyes. Are you saying all of this was a lie and made up?! That there were no Noba or even Blemmyes of the Eastern Desert?
Face it: you don't know what you're talking about either in regards, to culture, genetics, or history! You're desperate to promote this false premise of Nubians being ethnic Egyptians when the very statement is a contradiction as the two are completely different ethnic groups, as I've already explained to you here!
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I think that the Upper "Nubians" (Kushites) were predominantly Nilotic Nilo-Saharans while the Lower "Nubians" in Southern Egypt were Afro-Asiatic.
AE depictions of the Kushites show Dinka type people. AE depictions of Lower "Nubians" seem almost indistinguisable from the AE phenotype.
I was surprised to find that genetic evidence says that Nubians were genetically (and pressumably phenotypically) Nilotic until very recently.
quote: Genetic evidence points to an early admixture event in the Nubians, concurrent with historical contact between North Sudanese and Arab groups. We estimate the admixture in current-day Sudanese Arab populations to about 700 years ago, coinciding with the fall of Dongola in 1315/1316 AD, a wave of admixture that reached the Darfurian/Kordofanian populations some 400–200 years ago."
quote: an ‘unadmixed’ Nubian gene-pool is genetically similar to Nilotes (S7B Fig
quote: The strongest signal of admixture into Nubian populations came from Eurasian populations (S10 Fig, S2 Table) and was likely quite extensive: 39.41%-47.73% (f4-ratio, Z-scores between 22.8 and 26.7 Fig 3B, S9 Fig).
quote: Hence, the Nubians can be seen as a group with substantial genetic material relating to Nilotes that later have received much gene-flow from Eurasians (likely Middle Eastern) and from East Africans (Fig 2).
I see no basis for linking the Toubou with us. I'm quite certain that the Kushites, Nubae, Noubades and the Nobatians were Nilotic like the Dinka, and if they were mixed with Afro-Asiatics, they would have been like the Maasai.
The modern Nubian population in Sudan is a mix between Dinka type Nilotes and Eurasians. Some Dinka sections left the North in the 13th Century while others left in the 15th Century, so people should not assume that they've always been in the South. The Dinka displaced the Funj, Jurbel and Fertit groups when they left the Gezira for the South.
To Jari:
Unlike other blacks, Nilotes have very weak genes, so when they mix with Eurasians the offsprings lean phenotypically toward Eurasian. I know a Dinka man whose son is half Czech and the child has blonde hair and very light skin.
Another half-Dinka child looked like a Portugese person. Nilotic genes are completely different to Niger-Congo genes.
The "East African" component generated in home-testing kits tests is misleading; a significant portion of it is Eurasian -> 40 to 50% for some Horn African groups. The Somalis have Ancestral East African (pure Nilotes), North African and Eurasian DNA.
Horn Africans are either a mix between Omotics and Arabian Semites or are a mix between Dinka like Ancestral East Africans (AEA), North Africans and Eurasians -- which is the case with the Somalis.
This East African component is considered SSA (in home test kits) even though it has substantial Eurasian components, so it's misleading when a North Sudanese shows up with 87% SSA. A person of Nilotic (Dinka) and Eurasian ancestry will look very Eurasan because Nilotes have laughably weak genes.
You would think that the blackest people in Africa would not be so easily eclipsed, but the opposite is true.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Ase: Lol did he just ban jump?
This is how a ban works?
Just register again using a different tag to beat mgmnt
quote:Originally posted by Smnine-two: I don't think I've done anything to warrant a ban
Instead of deleting posts go on and reply to the banned not banned intruder.
posted
@Sudinaya Yes The Dinka people are The true Kushites of antiquity. This is why The Dinka word for people is Kas/Koc which is the same exact word The Ancient Egyptians used for The Kushites. There's also a place called Koch county in South Sudan. This is proof that The Nubians were not apart of Kush and is also why The Nubians were granted a right to return by The Egyptian Government in 2014. Though it has not carried through yet. It is proof that The Nubians are Indigenous to Egypt and not Sudan. A right to return can only be legally granted to an Indigenous population. So if The Nubians are Indigenous to Egypt then that means they migrated to Northern Sudan not the other way around like most people think. Technically speaking The Nubians living in Northern Sudan should also be included in the right to return since The Nubian homeland is in Southern Egypt.
Posts: 39 | From: New York | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Smnine-two: Once again the suffix at the end of the term Nubian designates belonging to Nub. You keep acting like the suffix at the end makes it a different term. So according to you're logic the terms Italy and Italian are two different terms. Do you see how that makes no sense?. You are using the suffix to separate Nubian from Nub which is the equivalent to separating Italian from Italy. If Nubians don't belong to Nub then Italians don't belong to Italy. You are making a nonsensical argument.
Again, the suffix "ian" is Latin
Again, the suffix "ian" is Latin
Again, the suffix "ian" is Latin
Again Nub means gold
Again Nubti is a town where Set was worshiped
Again the "I" at the end is a location designation not a reference to people
Again, Egyptians texts do not refer to a people with a derivation of the word Nub
This means that the fact that the word "Nubian" only appears in the Greco-Roman period
That means they could have intended it to refer to all the people from the 1st cataract in Egypt and down into Sudan as well.
Again the big Nub mines are in Sudan
meaning "people of the gold mining regions"
Again "ian" is Latin, not Egyptian and the people around Aswan don't call themselves Nubti
For the zillionth time. The word Nub is not Latin in origin. It is The Egyptian word for Gold. It doesn't matter if the ''ian'' suffix is Latin because The Egyptians also used a suffix which is why they referred to their God Set as a ''Nubti''. It designates his belonging to The city of Nubt. Regardless of whether or not they used this word for a God or a Human. They still applied the term to an entity. Also The Egyptians never referred to the gold mining areas in The Eastern Desert as Nub. They used this term to refer to what is now falsely being called Naqada due to it's richness in gold and proximity to the gold mining areas. Why are you trying to complexify this?
Posts: 39 | From: New York | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Smnine-two: But weren't you using their False Nilo-Saharan classification as the basis to you're argument that they weren't ethnic Egyptians?.
First of all there is nothing "false" about it! Nilo-Saharan is a linguistic classification. The Nubians speak Nilo-Saharan languages and language is a large part of ethnicity. You fail to understand that there is a difference between ethnicity and genetics.
quote:You once argued that they clustered with Nilo-Saharan speakers and used The Toubou as an example. So now that we both know that They cluster with Afro-Asiatic speakers then The Nilo-Saharan argument goes out the window. This also completely obliterates the claim that they originate from Noba Nomads in The Western Desert and the nail in the coffin is the fact that The Nubians of today are not a Nomadic people. That story was a Roman Mythological account of history. The Noba Nomads never existed this is why you will not find such people in The Western Desert today. All evidence shows The Nubians to be Indigenous Ethnic Egyptians.
Again you completely FAIL to comprehend the difference between ethnicity, that is linguistic and cultural affiliation, and that of physical population which is genetic affiliation! The two are NOT the same and often times contradict. My argument still stands that modern Nubians are ethnically--both linguistically and culturally--affiliated with the Toubou... who ALSO genetically cluster with Afro-asiatic speakers of northeast Africa, ignoramus!! Also, how does the fact that modern Nubians are sedentary today contradict the fact that their Noba ancestors were nomads??! You do realize that throughout history cultures change over time and people who were once nomadic become sedentary and vice-versa! Also, you keep saying it is a Roman myth when not only the Romans but Greeks and even native Egyptian commentators have spoke of groups immigrating into the Nile Valley during the Late Periods of Egyptian history not only the Noba but also the Blemmyes. Are you saying all of this was a lie and made up?! That there were no Noba or even Blemmyes of the Eastern Desert?
Face it: you don't know what you're talking about either in regards, to culture, genetics, or history! You're desperate to promote this false premise of Nubians being ethnic Egyptians when the very statement is a contradiction as the two are completely different ethnic groups, as I've already explained to you here!
The Nubians do not genetically cluster with Nilo-Saharans period. The Toubou do cluster with other Nilo-Saharans. Even The Nubian poster here stated that he and his people do not cluster with The Toubou. If you are going to claim they originate from Noba Nomads then show me a present day living breathing population of Noba Nomads in The Western Desert?. You can't because no such group of people exists. Yes The Nubians being sedentary people negates them being a Nomadic people. You can't be sedentary and Nomadic at the same time. Also if The Nubians were ever Nomadic then you would find them in multiple countries but you don't. The only places on earth where you will find Nubians is Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan. Their migration into Northern Sudan does not make them Nomads because both Nubts were in proximity to The Eastern Desert. The Blemmyes you speak of are The Beja today and they originated in The Eastern Desert like The Medjay because they are the same people and a Nomadic people like The Ancient Medjay. Their land was called Medja. Their very name Beja is a derivative of Medjay. Bej-Medj you can clearly hear the name Beja in the name Medjay. The Greeks and Romans cannot be used as a primary source because many of their texts contradict each other and are laden with Superstitions and Mythologies. You yourself said Diodorus claim of Egypt being a colony lead by Osiris was Mythological so how can you continue to use them as a primary source?. The Greeks and Romans were the inventors of Fake News. This is why Herodotus is referred to by many modern scholars as ''The father of Lies''. At the end of the day the fact remains that the term NUB/NB/NBW existed in The Egyptian language as a word for Gold and there were two cities in Egypt with this name and this term predates any Greco-Roman usage of it by at least 3,500 years.
Posts: 39 | From: New York | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Smnine-two: @Sudinaya Yes The Dinka people are The true Kushites of antiquity. This is why The Dinka word for people is Kas/Koc which is the same exact word The Ancient Egyptians used for The Kushites. There's also a place called Koch county in South Sudan. This is proof that The Nubians were not apart of Kush and is also why The Nubians were granted a right to return by The Egyptian Government in 2014. Though it has not carried through yet. It is proof that The Nubians are Indigenous to Egypt and not Sudan. A right to return can only be legally granted to an Indigenous population. So if The Nubians are Indigenous to Egypt then that means they migrated to Northern Sudan not the other way around like most people think. Technically speaking The Nubians living in Northern Sudan should also be included in the right to return since The Nubian homeland is in Southern Egypt.
I just showed you that modern Nubians (Nobatians) are a mix between Nilotes and Eurasians and that this Eurasian introgression took place in the last 700 years, and you're still insisting that the Nubians are not Sudanese?
What happened to the Khartoum Mesolithic? How do you ignore this? Ancient Egyptian and Nubian ancestry can be traced to the Khartoum Mesolithic.
The Noubades, Nubae and the Nobatians were not Kushites, but since they were neighbours, they were all probably related populations.
I'm more than well aware of the Dinka and that the Kushites may have been Nilotic, but your contention that the Nubians are not indigenous to Sudan is absurd.
By the way Koch County is in the Dar (land) of the Nuer. The Dinka word for people (plural) is indeed Koch and Raan for person, but there is no Kas in the Dinka language.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Smnine-two: @Sudinaya Yes The Dinka people are The true Kushites of antiquity. This is why The Dinka word for people is Kas/Koc which is the same exact word The Ancient Egyptians used for The Kushites. There's also a place called Koch county in South Sudan. This is proof that The Nubians were not apart of Kush and is also why The Nubians were granted a right to return by The Egyptian Government in 2014. Though it has not carried through yet. It is proof that The Nubians are Indigenous to Egypt and not Sudan. A right to return can only be legally granted to an Indigenous population. So if The Nubians are Indigenous to Egypt then that means they migrated to Northern Sudan not the other way around like most people think. Technically speaking The Nubians living in Northern Sudan should also be included in the right to return since The Nubian homeland is in Southern Egypt.
I just showed you that modern Nubians (Nobatians) are a mix between Nilotes and Eurasians and that this Eurasian introgression took place in the last 700 years, and you're still insisting that the Nubians are not Sudanese?
What happened to the Khartoum Mesolithic? How do you ignore this? Ancient Egyptian and Nubian ancestry can be traced to the Khartoum Mesolithic.
The Noubades, Nubae and the Nobatians were not Kushites, but since they were neighbours, they were all probably related populations.
I'm more than well aware of the Dinka and that the Kushites may have been Nilotic, but your contention that the Nubians are not indigenous to Sudan is absurd.
By the way Koch County is in the Dar (land) of the Nuer. The Dinka word for people (plural) is indeed Koch and Raan for person, but there is no Kas in the Dinka language.
If The Dinka word for people is Koch(Kush) then how can The Nubians be Indigenous to Sudan when Sudan was historically home to The Kushites?. The Khartoum Mesolithic you speak of was made up of Dinka/Nuer Nilotic types not Nubians. During That time period Khartoum was populated by Dinka/Nuer. All throughout Ancient Egyptian history they depicted the people of Northern Sudan as Dinka/Nuer. So I am correct when I say The Nubians are not Indigenous to Sudan. They were granted a right to return in Egypt so how can they be Indigenous to Sudan and Egypt at the same time?. If The Nubians were Indigenous to Sudan then The Egyptian Government couldn't have legally granted them a right to return. So if The Dinka are The Koch(Kushites) then that means they and not The Nubians are the true Indigenous people of Sudan.
Posts: 39 | From: New York | Registered: Mar 2020
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Also The Nubians cluster with Afro-Asiatic speakers like The Beja and Cushitic speakers from The Ethiopian highlands who all belong to The Afro-Asiatic family. This cluster is Ancient and predates any introgression by Eurasians. You cant place The Arab Afro-Asiatics that far back in time. You are making it seem like They were originally Nilo-Saharan and that they only recently began clustering with Afro-Asiatics. The link I posted in The OP shows Nubians do not cluster with Nilo-Saharans period. If The Nubians have any Nilotic ancestry then it derives from The Khartoum Mesolithic period which was populated by Dinka/Nuer. This could possibly explain why The Egyptians depicted themselves as identical to The Kushites and referred to them as RMT in Tomb KV-11 of Ramesses III. They were just simply recognizing their Khartoum Mesolithic Kushite(Dinka) ancestry. The Badarians do indeed cluster with Nilo-Saharan speakers but they predominantly cluster with Afro-Asiatics. The Nubians were never thoroughly Nilo-Saharan but were originally Afro-Asiatic like The Ancient Egyptians. This is because The Nubians are The Nubts(Egyptians) themselves.
Posts: 39 | From: New York | Registered: Mar 2020
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You're being dense on purpose. The Kushites seem to have been predominantly Nilotic, but attempting to directly associate them with the Dinka via a couple of words (Kasu & Koch), is absurd. You've not demonstrated a link between these words.
We also don't even know how old the Dinka are. Do you know? Can you prove that the language spoken in Kush has been preserved by the Dinka?
You have failed to counter the genetic evidence I provided; the evidence shows that modern Nubians are a mix between Nilotes and Eurasians, so if the modern Nubians are the AE, then you must agree that the AE were Nilotic and Eurasian to the same extent that modern Nubians are.
The Ancient Nubians were far more diverse than modern populations; there were "Nubian" kingdoms that were Nilotic and others that were "Cushitic", so you can't disregard that salient fact.
The people of Kerma clustered with the ancient Egyptians and must have been Afro-Asiatic, but I doubt that this is the case with all "Nubians".
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
You keep noting The Nubians mixture with Eurasians while ignoring Their Cluster with Beja and Ethiopians who are much more ancient than Eurasians. Yes I am linking The Dinka/Nuer with The Ancient Kushites based on their word for people which is Koch/Koc/Kas. The word designates people. I'm also basing it on how Taharqa himself was depicted with that same Gaar scarification mark that is very popular amongst The Nuer today. The AE also depicted The Kushites with those same cow urine hair dyes like The Dinka/Nuer today. The Ancient Kushites were depicted as Cattle-herders exactly like The Dinka/Nuer. The Nubians are not Cattle-Herders and carry none of these cultural elements. Yes I do acknowledge that The Ancestors of The AE(Badarians) were a mixture of Afro-Asiatic and Nilo-Saharan though The Afro-Asiatic element was more dominant. You keep thinking Afro-Asiatic is synonymous with Eurasian when it is not. The Afro-Asiatic ancestors of The AE were Beja and Cushitic speakers from The Ethiopian highlands not Eurasians. The Nilotic ancestors of The AE were Dinka/Nuer. This is why they referred to The Kushites as RMT in Tomb KV-11. They were acknowledging The Nilotic half of their ancestry. The Nubians today are descendants of These mixed Afro-Asiatic/Nilo-Saharan Egyptians and like you said their mixture with Eurasians did not occur until 700 years ago.
Posts: 39 | From: New York | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: You have shown no evidence that modern day Nubians are associated with the the city of Nubt or Nubti
The Egyptians may have described Set as Nubti but they did not describe a people as Nubti or Nub
while they did name many other groups
so you have nothing
1.I told you 100 Zillion times that the word Nub is Egyptian in origin and means Gold and that The AE gave 2 cities this name
2. There exists today an Indigenous population in Egypt called Nubians.
Do you realize how ridiculous your question is???
You're question is no different than asking me to provide evidence that an Athenian is someone from Athens.
Posts: 39 | From: New York | Registered: Mar 2020
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